BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:18 AM

"further more socialism is not as extreme as communism."
Socialism is an objective, communism is an objective achieved, neither are "extreme" other than to those who don't want it to happen - that's what the word
"Extremism" is a word now being misused in place of "something I don't agree with" (a little like "terrorism")
Terrorist tactics are fine when used by freedom fighters fighting for 'a just cause' against overwhelming odds or 'opponents of tyranny' - only those they are fighting call it terrorism"
I doubt if anybody can name a country which has fought in a war that hasn't opted fooor "terrorism" when considered necessary
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:33 AM

Extremism is extremism and it is wrong. It is not a word for something we disagree with. It is a word for the excesses of Hitler, Stalin, the Taliban and the Westboro Baptist Church.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:03 AM

They are people and organisations you are referring to Dave - you might add a few world leaders to that list - 'Mad Maggie', who described mass murder and torture in Chile as "democracy", or any U.S. leader (there were several) who oversaw the bombing of Vietnam with burning petrol bombs and carcinogenic missiles, while at the same time replacing chosen leaders with puppets like Marshall Ki.....
Dick mentioned philosophies - that's what communism and socailism are
There's nothing wrong with pursuing any just philosophy you its logical conclusion - if it IS just - that's the litmus test
Israel describes its opponents as terrorists yet regularly celebrates the memory of the bombing of The King David Hotel - a classic case of double-think
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:16 AM

They were examples, Jim. Not a definitive list.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

Socialism is not extreme.
you quote Stalin,
he was not a socialist
he was a Georgian revolutionary and Soviet politician who led the Soviet Union from the mid-1920s until 1953 as the general secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (1922–1952)
Whether he practised communism or state fascism is debatable ,but he was not a socialist.
it is arguable but some would argue that the USA behaves and has behaved in a terrorist manner, the overthrow of Allendes government was a terrorist and extreme act of violence, it wass extremist to overthrow Allende who was democratically elected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 05:01 AM

"further more socialism is not as extreme as communism."
I know and in general I agree with you, but they tended to be somewhat one-sided in the sense that those you missed off the list are among the first to scream "terrorism" as a convenient method of silencing opposition
When that becomes the norm the term itself becomes meaningless - it's a little like using "antisemitism" as a political weapon (as most decent Labour Party members have come to realise
Sorry Dave - I don't think tat's juggling semantics
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 05:14 AM

Re the German outbreak in the meat processing plant:

Martin Exner, a hygiene and public health expert at the university of Bonn, spent two days analysing the Tönnies meat-processing plant in Gütersloh, where an entire district has been sent back into lockdown after around 1,500 employees were infected with Coronavirus.

Slaughterhouses have also been at the heart of Covid-19 outbreaks in America, France, and other German regions.

At a press conference, Exner said the air filtration system in the slaughter area had contributed to the spread of aerosol droplets laden with the virus, describing it as a “newly recognised risk factor”.
=====

Sorry, but that is not really a newly recognised risk factor. Newly appreciated, perhaps. Look at items two and three in this article.

This will, of course, potentially be a major factor as pubs and restaurants reopen.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 10:50 AM

Wow! Reported just now that RL-B has been sacked for sharing an article on Twitter that contains an ‘anti-Semitic conspiracy theory’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM

That should of course be ‘sacked from the shadow cabinet’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

I understand that she has been sacked for agreeing with Maxine Peake that the US police learned their kneeling on neck technique fro the Israeli Secret Service
Israel is not the 'Jewish People' so in now way can she be accused of antisemitism - on the contrary - anybody who makes such an accusation is in breach of the 10th clause of the definition of antisemitism by linking the Jewish People with Israeli Policy
I knew Sir Keefe was a scumbag
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM

I would have thought it more important for the shadow cabinet to be concentrating on uk government and corruuption,was she being anti semitic?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 12:30 PM

A few facts here
"Over 100 Minnesota Law Enforcement Officers Attended A 2012 Conference Organized By The Israeli Consulate In Which Israeli Police Trained Them. Israeli Forces Often Use The Knee-On-Neck Restraint On Palestinians."
HERE
MORE

Good to know the Labour Party is in a safe pair of hands !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 12:57 PM

I read a fairly legit report a few days ago on the extent of Israeli military and ex-military
involvement
in lucrative international 'security consultancy' contracts...

It's big $$$$$s business for Israel...

What.. Bailey a handy sacrificial lamb to demonstrate Sir Keith can be a decisive hard man,
just when he is berating boris for being so soft on his [allegedly..] corrupt tory sycophant hench men...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:43 PM

Capitalism is a system based on fostering and encouraging a natural greed that is instinctive in most

No it isn't. That may be the result but capitalism is a system that concentrates on the private sector and profit while socialism concentrates on the the state and welfare of the people. The obvious choice for anyone that cares is the latter but, to date, no system has as yet managed to overcome all the issues. There is now another factor. Both private industry and the state are squandering natural resources at a rate that cannot be sustained. When all the resources are spent or when the climate cannot maintain human life, petty political differences will matter not one jot. It's time to compromise and all work together.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 06:26 PM

Keir Starmer has today revealed three facets of his character. First, he is politically astute. He knows that his ruthless action re Becky Long-Bailey mutes the vicious opponents of Corbynism, both in the party and outside, with regard to the bogus running sore of antisemitism in the party. Second, he is viciously dishonest. The remark that was supposed to be antisemitic, made by Maxine Peake, was absolutely no such thing, and he knows it. Antisemitism is attacking Jews because they are Jews. The comment in question contained nothing of that sort whatsoever. Attacking the actions of the Israeli state is never, ever, antisemitic. Unless, of course, you make the criticism then add, or imply, that "it's typical of Jews..." which was neither remotely said nor implied. Third, he is a bloody coward who has been led by the nose by the Board Of Deputies, an undemocratic setup that was also responsible in large part for the extremely dishonest and disreputable "working definition of antisemitism," which had the prime aim of stifling any criticism of successive Israeli regimes over their dreadful mistreatment of the Palestinian minority in the territories they control. The pusillanimous and downright creepy and unconditional support of the outrages committed by successive Israeli regimes will one day come back to bite those who indulge in it. Starmer has already shown that he's such a good fence-sitter that his arse must be more splinters than flesh. This move today is simply further confirmation. I look forward to a big backlash in the party. In other words, grrr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 03:32 AM

"No it isn't. "
Yest it is and it has never attempted to hide that fact
It is a natural progression of the feudalist system it replaced the dominance of the wealthy and the powerful over the peasant's/workers - that's history Dave
Even at the best of times, the bank balances of those that have are placed above the general good
Today we are seeing this writ large - people are being forced into "a new normality" when it is fairly obvious that winter will bring a second wave of the virus - as is already beginning to happen in some countries which have jumped the gun
Johnson got a bad scare after his sickness - he still looks pretty shaken; he stood up and swore that the lockdown would not be lifted too soon
He was persuaded otherwise by a divided cabinet and business pressure
It will be argued when things go wrong that the risk was taken "for the good of the country" - the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders

By the way, most attempts to "change the system" managed miracles beyond belief - semi-feudal empires turned into world leaders with massive iprovements in lifing standards across the board, and world-leading edcucation and health in less than half a century - despite constant outside interference, Civil Wars, a world War and a cold war - and corrupt (even insane) leaders
These were achieved by huge sacrifices, sure, but we've all been asked to make them, whatever system we live under
Capitalism relies on an unequal society with the wealthy dominating a subservient 'lower order' - that is a flawed society

Amen to everything you wrote Steve - Starmer is a ruthless Blair writ large - at least 'Our Tone' started off with principles - if Keerie has his way, they will be things of the past
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:28 AM

Jim posted "It will be argued when things go wrong that the risk was taken "for the good of the country" - the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders"

I am not sure what you are saying here. is it that they should not be relaxing the lockdown until people are sure that there is no risk?

Then you say "the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders"

Are you saying the economy is heading that way due to the lockdown or for some other reason?

The facts are that we are heading for huge economic problems. The government has spent huge amounts of money and will probably have to continue to do so, while at the same time revenues are falling faster than ever.

People are losing their jobs because of the lockdown and it is most likely that a lot more jobs will be lost. Even if a cure for the virus was found today, it will take quite a time for things ever to return to 'normal'.

As I mentioned a while back, it has struck me that most of the regular posters to these threads are no longer working. The loss of jobs will probably only hit you later, when services that you use are affected. For those people who are still working, the loss of their jobs will have a dramatic and immediate effect on their lives. For those small to medium business owners the loss of their business will have the same effect.

We are living in troubled times and I don't see any easy remedies ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:57 AM

What the Labour Party needs most of all is unity, and loyalty to their elected leader.

It’s very strange that those who deplored the disloyalty suffered by Corbyn, and the way he was undermined by his own party’s members, are now displaying precisely the same kind of disloyalty towards Starmer. And that’s the flaw which the Tories will take advantage of more and more in order to ensure another election victory.

It gives me no pleasure to say it but, as someone who has only turned to Labour in recent years, it seems patently obvious Labour really do need to wake up, smell the coffee, and realise that they are their own worst enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:04 AM

The lock-down should be eased ony when the risk has been minimised enough to do so.
The main factor has to be a health - not an economic one
We have seen d deliberate undermining of the heal advice eing given, largely by the business sector and the politicians who back them
It's rather like WW1 where every yard of territory ought over was calculated by how namy lives could be sacrificed
None of the tings you mentioned are due to the lock-down - they are due to the pandemic - the lock-down is an unavoidable consequence of that
Much of this revolves around public perception and reaction - the ease-down is announced and you get mass madness like yesterday's Bournemouth Beach
This has been the way things are since the confusion of sending people back to work on Monday - whoops, I meant Wednesday - crammed cattle-trucks on the London tube
National lemmingism
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:10 AM

I agree, Backwoodsman. Had Keir Starmer not acted as he did, it would have awoken the entire antisemitism row again. Before the last election Labour spent months arguing whether various statements were or were not anti-Semitic and all it did was destroy their position. I know several long term Labour voters who voted with other parties - not Conservatives - because of 'the antisemitism thing.' For Keir to go down the route of arguing it was not really anti-Semitic would have been severely wounding, if not potentially fatal. His very first statement, more or less, was that he wanted to end that row. Rebecca Long-Bailey was perhaps no more than carelessly patting the back of loyalist in her constituency. Perhaps she had done no more than speed-read the article. No matter, I am afraid. The topic is too politically dangerous to risk re-opening it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:52 AM

Absolutely Nail/Head, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:14 AM

Corbyn brought in many new members not because of his personality or his experience (he had neither) but because he offered a return to Labour principles
Starmer is set fair to loose just as many with his abandoning of those principles
Throwing his ministers to the wolves makes him no better than the worst of the Tory leaders and it helps keep scum like Netanyahu in place to continue interfering in the British Parliamentary system
Bailey and Peake were right - Israel has trained 10 US police forces including the force that killed Floyd
TRAINED to STRANGLE
Any party that expels members for telling the truth isn't worth shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM

The sacking was unprincipled, opportunistic and cowardly. Instead of showing strength in standing up to any genuine antisemitism, he has gleefully taken the opportunity he has been waiting for to begin to "cleanse" his shadow cabinet of lefties, and has thereby shown himself to be a weak-willed boot-licker of the pro-Israel lobby in this country. I can just imagine the blood rushing to the heads of the Board Of Deputies. Who can we get next, they'll be thinking...You who are defending him can read the piece that led to the sacking. There was no conspiracy theory and no antisemitism. He is doing the very thing that leads to divisions. No doubt you'll be blaming the left when it all goes pear-shaped. Yours angrily, Steve, only just still a party member...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:43 AM

“”Any party that expels members for telling the truth isn't worth shit”

RL-B hasn’t been ‘expelled’ by the LP, Jim. She’s been relieved of her position in the Shadow Cabinet.

Any party that can’t get itself elected to form a government isn’t worth shit. A Tory majority of 81 ought to tell you something - it’s not rocket-science.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:49 AM

Any party that ditches its principles so shabbily and ruthlessly isn't worth shit either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:52 AM

Smentics Baccie - she has been 'neutrailised' which is worse
We've had Labour Governments - the only one to have made a difference was elected in 1945
The rest have all been Tory Governments in all but name
Blair's was the second worst of bad Tory Governments (close on the heels of Thatcher)
A Labour Government without Labour principles is worth less than shit - the turd in charge now is actually supporting one of the things that had Corbyn removed - false accusations of antisemitism
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

Attacking the actions of the Israeli state is never, ever, antisemitic. Unless, of course, you make the criticism then add, or imply, that "it's typical of Jews..."

                ---------:---------

I can just imagine the blood rushing to the heads of the Board Of Deputies. Who can we get next, they'll be thinking...


By the definition given in the first statement, the second statement appears, to me, to be antisemitic.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:16 AM

Absolute rubbish. You appear to be saying that I can't criticise the Board Of Deputies in the same way that I can criticise anyone else. Well I can and I will, and if that's what you think then you've been hoodwinked and cowered by the same strong lobby that has successfully managed to get any criticism of the actions of the Israeli regime labelled as antisemitic. I might suggest to you that you think very carefully before you go around labelling any of us here as antisemitic. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM

As the frequently mis-attributed quote goes, ‘The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results’.

It seems to me that Starmer has acted quickly and with authority in order to de-fuse the charge of institutional anti-semitism made, with great success, against the LP pre-the 2019 GE by its own party-members, the Board of Deputies, and the Conservatives. He’s sharp enough to know that the ‘anti-semitism’ trope was a deliberate tactic, along with ‘Get Brexit Done’ etc., aimed at ensuring a Tory win at the election. It worked, at least in part, because the party leadership failed to deal with it properly.

If you’re happy for Labour to carry on in the Corbyn way, and thus guarantee they will be in permanent opposition, fine - have it yur way. But remember, Labour can’t change anything if the don’t get elected, and a Tory majority of 81 says something has to change in a big way. If you can’t hold your noses for a while and support the current leadership, you’re no better than the Corbyn-detractors during his time as leader, and you’d better get ready for Tory rule for a very, very long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:49 AM

I thought labour had a future with Corbyn - I respected his stance on Israel and his refusal to scapegoat members because of a deliberate plot hatched up by New Labour supporters and Friends of Irrael
To capitulate woould have put Labour back at square one
I'd rather have no Labour Party rather than one without principles
Your way has been tried and has failed miserably
It is you who is repeating a mantra about being in power - try responding to what I have said
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM

I thought Maxine Peake had retracted her claim about the Israeli training of the US police.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM

For the record, the Parliamentary Labour Party is split down the middle over the sacking
This "insanity" must be as infectious as Coraonavirus
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:15 AM

”I’d rather have no Labour Party rather than one without principles”

That’s exactly what the Tories want to hear. Well done for giving them succour Jim.

Politics isn’t binary, and getting a party to the point of electability necessarily involves compromises. Wake up and smell the coffee, or get ready for permanent Tory government.

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:23 AM

"I thought Maxine Peake had retracted her claim about the Israeli training of the US police."
If she has I'll be very disappointed - it had been a known fact for about a month now
HERE
NECK_KNEELING, UP CLOSE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:27 AM

I'm appalled that you should support the behavour of this man the way you are
You certainly have chosen your side in the Labour Party - Tony Blair would be proud of you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:51 AM

I want a Labour government. Your lot completely fucked it up, and we’ve ended up with the most corrupt Right-Wing Tory government in my lifetime, and you’ve learned nothing from the experience.

I’m appalled that you’re incapable of compromise in order to get this disgusting bunch of corrupt, greedy Tories out. Meanwhile the lpoor and vulnerable continue to be sacrificed on the altar of your intransigence.

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:05 AM

Well.. Sir keef better have a well devised longer term strategy
how he is going to decisively neutralise the israeli regime take-over
of our UK Labour party...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:22 AM

Worry not, pfr. Labour Friends of Israel have tightened their grip, along with the Board Of Deputies. Until someone grows the cojones to tell these arseholes to get off and walk, every little mention of Israel or the Palestinians will be flagged up for scrutiny. There's no end to this misery. Starmer has solved absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:25 AM

No Baccie - "our lot" didn't fuck it up
It was already "fucked up" by one on yours who turned out to be a war criminal who supported sending troops in sear of non existent weapons in order to appease Goerge Dubya - he narrowly escaped international prosecution
That was the Labour Party Corbyn was faced with changing
He "fucked it up" by attempting to return Labour to it's socialist principles
Britain is in the state that it is in because it has lived with a two-party same policy sysstem for far too long
Under both Labour and Conservative Governments, British workers have lost their rights to a say in working conditions, they have watched the NHS slither down to crisis level, they've seen industries go bust, homes have been transormed into investments, unemployment has steadily climbed and now the unemployed are forced to take any job that is offered to them no matter what they were trained for and usually at an enforced decline in standards of living
The gap between haves and have-nots has reached ASTRONOMICAL LIMITS pretty well the highest in the 'free world'
That has been brought about by a series of Governments whose policies have become indistinguishable
The fact that Blair oved to formalise that bey creating 'New Labour' caused many thousands of people who wanted genuine change to abandon the Labour Party - Corbyn's policies and promises brought them flocking back
In the short time that this knight of the realm has been in office he has managed to frive aa wedge between the giffeent groups in the Labour Party - all to appease an extreme right wing State which is bust ethnically cleansing Arabs out of their rightful homes
Shame on you for supporting any of this
Now will you answer my points instead of meaningllessly trying to lay the blame on people who still support what the Labour Party was set up i the first place for
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:32 AM

i've left the labour party 3 times in the past and supported and voted for other progressive parties. anyway, i joined again when corbyn was going for the leader job. i thought it disgusting the way he was treated and i'm dismayed to see what the leader is doing to Rebecca L-B. however, i'm not even thinking of leaving - did i read that part of maxine peake's purpose was to urge left leaning members to stay with the party? - well, i'll do that and do my best to use what little influence i can to keep the party to task in fighting for the rights and lives of people in england and internationally. i'm afraid i think it's self-indulgent and defeatist to do anything else. i havn't been loyal to the labour party but i have all my life fought the tories and the danger they currently pose to us all is real and urgent. it's a terrible system - we have to remake it and this will never happen unless we get rid of the tories. 'a party without principles is not worth supporting' is purist but just what the tories and their friends want you to think. sadly, we have to get our hands dirty to get rid of their filth.

pete

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM

So, how do you, Jim and Steve propose to ‘get rid of the Tories’?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:38 AM

Sorry, pressed ‘go’ too soon!

....get rid of the Tories without compromise within a terminally divided party? How do you propose to demonstrate that ‘anti-semitism’ is a completely unfounded Tory trope without demonstrating it won’t be tolerated?

How?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:39 AM

How do you propose to demonstrate party-solidarity and unity without compromise - on both sides?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 10:21 AM

"How do you propose to demonstrate that ‘anti-semitism’ is a completely unfounded Tory trope without demonstrating it won’t be tolerated?"
It is not up to me or anybody to prove the accusation is unfounded, on the contrary, it's up to the accusers to prove it does - that's how British justice works
Antisemitism is the oldesst form or racist bigotry in existence and it is present in every party, Labour included
There was not a smell of it being 'a problem until almost exactly one month after Corbyn announced his support for the Palestinian People - he drew short of supporting BDS
A group of Labour Friends of Israel were invited to a meeting with the Knesset and a week after they returned accusations of Labour antisemitism began to appear in the press
It was found that virtually all the accusations were groundless - Ruth Smeeth, one of the most vociferous, was found to be FUNDED BY ISRAEL and was an admirer of Netanyahu - none of this appeared in the popular press, who were happy to take whatever they could throw at Corbyn in their orchestrated campaign to get rid of him
Despite clause 10 of the new definition, Israel has managed to make criticism of Israel "antisemitic" - this has backfired on the Jewish people who are now being accused of Israel's crimes, thanks to Israel's using them as human shields
Some of the most outspoken critics of Israel are Jews - Holocaust survivors and their descendants, ex Directors of Mossad, even a General in the Israeli Army - all have equated the behaviour of the present Government with that of the Nazis - they have been awarded the title "self-loathing Jews"
Israel is now regarded a criminal State by the U.N. - for its land stealing and its ethnic cleansing policies
The only thing that has kept it out of the International Criminal Courts is over 30 U.N. vetoes by the United States

The Labour Party was founded partially with support of Jews fleeing the European pogroms - it might be a coincidence that these accusations began so soon after Corbyn's announced support for the Palestinians - I'd welcome anybody's opinion on that one
Labour has nothing to prove, it's accusers have everything
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 10:24 AM

In a statement to the New Statesman, the organisation said: “For years, we’ve documented appalling crimes under international law and human rights violations meted out to Palestinians by members of the Israeli security forces, though the precise nature of the training offered to US police forces by Israeli officials is not something we’ve documented.

“Allegations that US police were taught tactics of ‘neck kneeling’ by Israeli secret services is not something we’ve ever reported and the article in question has rightly been amended to acknowledge that.

“The US police themselves have a longstanding record of using excessive force against members of the public - including Black Lives Matter protesters, something we reported on earlier this week.”

Peake herself has now retracted her earlier comments, saying in a statement: “I was inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources. I find racism and antisemitism abhorrent and I in no way wished, nor intended, to add fodder to any views of the contrary.”


Ailbhe Rea is political correspondent at the New Statesman.

New Statesman - Amnesty Denial

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 10:25 AM

We won't shake off this bogus antisemitism malarkey by booting out people who are not antisemites, that's for sure. The snappy dogs just come back for more every time you do that, as happened time after time on Corbyn's watch. And they'll be back for more this time too. Pro-Israel lobbyists always see parties more to the left as the people who are more likely to question the unconditional support for the Israeli regime, so they're the ones they target. The Tories are safe because their friends-of-Israel setup is very right-wing, and the Tories in any case are far more inclined towards Islamophobia than to antisemitism. And the more you give the snappy dogs, the more they want. Starmer has made a massive mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:05 AM

Jim posted "For the record, the Parliamentary Labour Party is split down the middle over the sacking"

Is it split or is it two separate parties? Steve and pfr have posted in the past about the factions that appear in local party meetings. The vast majority of people in this country do not belong to any political party. They are mostly oblivious to the scheming and internecine warfare that goes on between people who are supposedly members of the same party.

I personally am in favour of having a form of PR in our elections. I have also said that I find it hard to imagine political parties being able to work constructively with each other. That is a long way off, seeing that even members of the same party find it so hard to work with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:29 AM

"Steve and pfr have posted in the past about the factions that appear in local party meetings

I could have, but I can't remember..
Are you sure it was me...???

I've never been a member of any party, but am an old best mate
of folks who are senior party officials in a west country town
I no longer live in...

I know I wouldn't last two minutes as a labour party member
before some local zealot got offended by me...

I'm best off persuading for the labour cause on my own terms, from the outside...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

During Corbyn’s leadership, the dissenters who undermined the leader were called everything from a pig to a dog by his supporters. Now they are themselves the dissenters, undermining the current leader, they seem to believe that’s OK, that they are beyond reproach. Words like ‘double’ and ‘standards’ spring readily to mind (others too, but those will suffice for now).

The vast majority of Labour voters aren’t ‘Lefties’, they are ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views. They don’t want the political dogma of the radical Left, they just want a left-of-centre party of Fairness For All. I’ll say it one last time, if there’s no compromise and the dissenters continue to undermine the Labour leadership, there will be no Labour government in the foreseeable future, probably ever. And that will be a tragedy. If you don’t believe it, you’re delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

Apologies if I got that wrong pfr, my memory is not what it was.

But I think you got the gist of my post. As someone said to me, politics is a dirty business.