BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM

DMcG The only point I make is that the data is inevitably flawed. But if it is the best you have and is 80% accurate that is all you can use for planning purposes. It is not a blame game, it is the reality.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-04-06/the-flaws-in-coronavirus-case-reporting-data

https://cmmid.github.io/topics/covid19/forecasts-and-projections.html

https://blog.protiviti.com/2020/04/28/covid-19-crisis-exposes-flaws-in-master-data-sets/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM

During the war the BBC news was happily being contradicted nightly by Lord Haw-Haw - the Yanks has Tokyo Rose
We'll have to think of a name for ours
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM

Interesting that the recent Panorama program was crewed by a bunch of Labour activists. This is a direct breach of BBC guidlines where such bias should be notified to the prospectiveaudience.
"”Appropriate information about their affiliations, funding and particular viewpoints should be made available to the audience, when relevant to the context.”

Another nail in the BBC coffin.

Full details in the link
Health Secretary slams Panorama

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

I partially agree with your 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM post Iains, and it is where I differ from Steve: yes, we would love to have the well-defined data so we can accurately cross-compare one country with another reliably: nothing could be better. And, retrospectively it might be possible to do that, though I doubt it because I suspect we are not collecting the additional information we would need to resolve the data sets. Had we stayed in the EU no doubt we could try to agree some reporting standards to apply to future pandemics as one of the 'lessons learned'. But we are in the position where we have to make the best use of the flawed data we have. We would rather not be, but needs must.

But this is where I part company with Iains's post: if we are accepting the data that is '80%' that is what we have to do. We cannot accept bits we like and ignore bits we don't like. So if COBRA is accepting that graph as 'the broad picture' as the COBR in the corner would suggest it is, then the broad picture also says the UK(all settings) is appreciably worse than other countries excluding the US.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM

Expert - BBC ----- who should we rely on Dominic Scumbag ?
This is delibarate sabotage from 'Fake News Freddie' maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM

It is a blatant lie - a piece of right-wing propaganda in fact. to suggest that where any major contradictions in the advice from the real experts - it it wwere true it would be emblazoned ovr every headline in Britain
This is what the Stewart' called "a makkie-up"
There may be differences of opinion on nuances, but overall, there is total and clearly stated agreement on the best way to proceed

On the other hand, half Britain's leaders are saying it is necessary to continue and possibly intensify lock-down (including a "one-bitten' Johnson, while the other half are demanding an easing of restrictions for the sake of big-business
That someone should continue to use this crisis as a photo-opportunity for anti-Labour propaganda is beyond belief and puts all his arguments where thay have always belonged - in the political gutter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

"On the other hand, half Britain's leaders are saying it is necessary to continue and possibly intensify lock-down (including a "one-bitten' Johnson, while the other half are demanding an easing of restrictions for the sake of big-business"

Not just for the sake of big business.

There is going to be huge financial cost for the taxpayers and a number of future governments here in the UK. The present government has spent/is going to spend huge amounts of money in trying to deal with this situation.

Not everyone is in the fortunate position of no longer having to need to work. There does need to be a managed return to work at some point, probably sooner rather than later. No doubt it will be a gradual return while also keeping an eye on the number of new cases of the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:58 AM

Same Day reporting
MESSAGE ONE
MESSAGE TWO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM

Not everyone is in the fortunate position of no longer having to need to work

To be honest, we don't know how may such people there will be. In normal circumstances stopping the 'triple-lock' on pensions is such a vote loser no one considers it seriously, but something like the effects of this virus could get both sides of the house to agree it is should go. Then many pension funds are based on the stock market, so the value of pensions involved could drop significantly. If there is a forced devaluation it could eat up savings...

There may be quite a few pensioners forced back to work. We can't be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM

You can differ as much as you like, but useful comparisons between countries can be made only if broadly similar methods of amassing those numbers are used in each country. The issues involved are not minor. Care home deaths and deaths not in hospital have not been included here. "Deaths involving coronavirus" in this country are logged on the say-so of a doctor who has usually not got a test result to go from. On top of that, a Coronavirus death may reach the figures tomorrow morning, in five weeks' time or something in between. Now convince me that the countries you wish to compare us with are doing similar, or at least that you have a way of stripping away the inconsistencies between one country and another that muddle the results. Looking at our own numbers is useful in that they inform future strategy. Comparing countries may be done for political purposes (the brexiteers are sniffing around, for example), so you'd better have good numbers at the outset. Which we haven't got as things stand.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:18 AM

"Well he did advocate an earlier lockdown, as did you."
He also recommended that weaker members of society be given lower priority - a crisis used for euthanasia
Trolling is right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:19 AM

You can differ as much as you like, but useful comparisons between countries can be made only if broadly similar methods of amassing those numbers are used in each country

I fully agree, and you have already said this several times. But you always appear to direct the comment at Iains. The idea of comparisons was introduced onto this discussion by someone else.

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:09 PM

Just been announced that the UK is set to have the highest number of virus casualties/deaths in Europe - deaths hve more than doublesd in the last seven days
Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?
Jim

Any comparisons since that point have been comments on that claim (or on the subsequent counter-claims).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:24 AM

I see this morning that the Prime Minister’s partner has given birth to a baby boy, and that mother and baby are doing well.

I’d like to congratulate Mr. Johnson and Miss Symonds on the birth of their child, and say what a very pleasant change it makes to see him publicly acknowledging the arrival of his latest Illegitimate child.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:25 AM

for what it is worth, Nigel, I read Steve's comment as a direct response to the comment I made in which I named him. I did not see it as directed at anyone else.

And I am quite content for it to be directed at me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:16 AM

"latest Illegitimate child."
Miaow :-)
Goood to see it more important that the coronavirus figures though - always did have his priorities right, our Boris
Good job they don't acknowledge all of them - we'd have to buy The Sun for the rest of the news
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

Sorry Jim, I allowed my halo to slip, and dropped into ‘Magic Grandad’ and ‘Abbopotamus’ mode. Nice to get one’s own back occasionally.

Normal service now resumed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 09:03 AM

Once again there is no analysis or context in the guido "report".

Reporting such lines as "according to two people involved" … were they the cleaners or the people who brought the coffees in!

Quoting Bloomberg sage sources …….. what sources, how does a right wing American news channel have sources suddenly elevated to be the font of all wisdom.

Is anyone silly enough to believe such "reporting". Really?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM

Every day for a while the Government has been telling us the five tests before easing of the lockdown.

Up until yesterday, the fifth test was

"no chance of a second wave"

Today it has been changed to

"no chance of a second that would overwhelm the NHS"

Fans of Animal Farm, please note!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:30 PM

2 legs 4 legs

No chance of a second wave?

Not sure how anyone could safely say that there is going to be no chance of a second wave.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:39 PM

I agree that the original of 'no chance of a second wave' was unrealistic, though they should have known that from the beginning. However the formulation they have gone for is both the earliest possible release and the highest risk option.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:18 PM

and of course since the first wave did not overwhelm the NHS, a second wave the same size would be acceptable within those tests.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:35 PM

At least there should be plenty of time to obtain, distribute and store sufficient PPE.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 02:15 PM

In other news today Arron Banks and Liz Bilney, the CEO of Leave.EU, follow in the footsteps of Darren Grimes by winning in the High Court against the Electoral Commission. Today the Electoral Commission agreed terms of settlement over the Electoral Commission’s announcement in November 2018 of its referral of Banks and Bilney to the National Crime Agency for further investigation.
This is the third Court case on the EU referendum and joins
-We send £350 million a week to the NHS - TRUE
-Darren Grimes did not break the law - TRUE
-Arron Banks did not break the law - TRUE

I wonder how much taxpayers money was squanndered pursuing these frivolous claims?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 03:18 PM

"In a statement released on Friday, the Met concluded there was insufficient evidence to justify further investigation of the group, which was set up by the insurance businessman Arron Banks.

“It is clear that whilst some technical breaches of electoral law were committed by Leave.EU in respect of the spending return submitted for their campaign, there is insufficient evidence to justify any further criminal investigation,” the statement said.

It added that Leave.EU’s responsible person for legal purposes, Liz Bilney, a business associate of Banks, would also face no further police action.

The investigation was launched after the Electoral Commission concluded in May 2018 that the group had committed multiple breaches of electoral spending law during the EU referendum and fined it £70,000.

The breaches included exceeding the legal spending cap by at least 10% and delivering incorrect spending and transactions records."
Metripoliton Police statement

Frivolous my arse

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 PM

24 September 2019 • 9:31am

Pro-Brexit campaigner Arron Banks has threatened to sue the Electoral Commission after he was cleared of any criminality over £8 million in EU referendum campaign funding.

In a statement, the National Crime Agency (NCA) said it had found no evidence that any criminal offences had been committed after the Electoral Commission referred what it described as multiple breaches of electoral spending law for investigation.

The NCA said it would therefore take no further action against Mr Banks, Leave.EU chief executive Liz Bilney or associated organisations.
Note the date!
The court case I referred to was 29April 2020
Mr Banks 1, Electoral Commission nil.
Not unfounded allegations but case proven in favour of Mr Banks in the High Court of Justice Queen's Bench Division.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:06 PM

The latest development is that inquests into the deaths of health care workers who fall victim of coronavirus have been instructed NOT to look at the issue of lack of PPE.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 04:07 AM

Coronavirus: New antibody test ‘with 99 per cent accuracy’ approved for use across Europe

This is good news, especially for the researchers. The sample size mentioned in the article sounds a little low to be confident of that 99% accuracy, but I am sure those who approved it have looked into it more thoroughly than I can.

There is a paragraph "Dr Clarke added the test was useful to authorities because it showed “how the virus has moved through the population” but added “for the general public it of no immediate utility.” I would echo that on what we know so far, because most people do not understand the relationship between test accuracy and the number of false results it gives. We do not know how widespread the virus is in the population, but if 5% of the population have it, a back of the envelope calculation would be that the test gives an incorrect result about 19% of the time. As we don't really know what the percentage of infection is, I have made an estimate based on the number of tests and the number of those that tested positive, but it is very rough and ready, because most asymptomatic people would not get tested, meaning the actual percentage who have had the virus could be a lot higher.

If we were getting the 20% false results, those medics involved in serious testing will understand that and treat it accordingly, but I am far from convinced the general public will.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 04:15 AM

"Pro-Brexit campaigner Arron Banks has threatened to sue the Electoral Commission "
You'd think he was rich enough with his Brexit scam - people like that don't do anything from dedication or altruism

Some time ago we, who disapproved of the policies and actions of the right (including the British Tories) were accused of being 'Anglophobes'
The first time I became aware of the accuser's own opinion of Britain big time was when he attacked the British Courts for jailing Tommy Robinson for interfering with a British trial, he spent several postings publicising the then circulation of an on-line petition to "Free Tommy Robinson" - it was being circulated by Robinson's own organisation, a spin-off from the defunct National Front
So our 'Anglophobe' accuser appears to have an intense dislike of The British Justice System and its administrators

His contempt for The British Press is ongoing as he chooses to dismiss it in favour of a right-wing blogger with a criminal record who has a history of support for The National Front
So our souce of British information runs a poor second to a criminal blogger
The British Broadcasting Corporation has come under regular attack for broadcasting 'Fake News' - again, he prefers the criminal blogger
No time for Britisdh 'free speech' then

When the police arrested Tommy Robinson again for assaulting an innocent bystander at a swimming pool for no reason other than being there, they were accused by our defender of British honour as being biased and allowing a non-existent pedophile to go free (no evidence of peadofilia has ever emerged

Now the British police have come under attack again, this time for prosecuting someone who has fairly obviously breached the laws regarding the Brexit referendum - he has obviously done wrong but has covered his tracks well enough to hide the evidence
Had it been a Remain supporter in the case, there is little doubt that our 'Anglofile' would be carrying a rope and looking for the nearest tree
So our British Bobbies are both time and public money wasters and supporters of peadofilia
Oor British forces of Law and order are crap, it seems

When the Brexit fight got serious, our hero was insisting that those who were opposing the fight to leave were "traitors" and should be thrown out of Parliament - little respect for British Democracy there - it appears

Now he is gloating over the fact that our Brexit scam-artist is to sue Britain for interfering with his business interests - at a time when Britain is entering for an economic depression, thanks to a world-wide pandemic
Wonder what place the future of the British people during inevitable hard times rates on his like-dislike scale - not high, obviously - the making wealthier of someone with far too much already is far more important

It is difficult to see what exactly this Anglofile actually likes about Britain - not very much as far as I can see
Any suggestions ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM

The electoral commplaints Authority is supposed to have evidence before attempting a prosecuuution. Obviously they had none. Therefore the futile exercise was a waste of public money. They should all resign.

Now the British police have come under attack again, this time for prosecuting someone who has fairly obviously breached the laws regarding the Brexit referendum - he has obviously done wrong but has covered his tracks well enough to hide the evidence
The police do not prosecte and the rest of your accusation is simply defamaion. I hope you have deep pockets! r

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

"They should all resign.
"
Maybe the whole Government should resign and make room for your mate Tommy
Waddya think ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

"I hope you have deep pockets!"
Look forward to the extradition papers - bring it on
I think this confirms that you hate Britain far more than those you accuse of doing so
Great start to the day, I'd have thought
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

Look forward to the extradition papers - bring it on
Not near as much as I.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/a-click-from-the-courts-online-libel-never-easier-1.1252882

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:15 AM

Won't hold my breath - wind and pee, like the barber's cat
You know as well as I that this scumbag is a con-man and would not dare prod this sleeping giant
The fact that you defend him at a time when the British People are locked down fearing for their lives and worrying whether thay will have jobs puts you in his brackeT Patriotism - little Brit style writ large, I would say

A medical expert has saidd that the lock-down cannot be eased until (at the very least) The Government has a long-term plan for testing
At present they have no plan for tomorrow - only acute shortages of equipment
It's gonna be a long - long summer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:47 AM

Keep digging! You may think you have immunity.Defamation is defamation and actionable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 10:05 AM

80% of employees in the hospitality sector may have been furloughed. For arts and entertainment, it is at 67%, whilst construction and manufacturing come in at 40% and 29% respectively.
Only one local authority district in the country – Oxford – sees less than one in five employees furloughed, and even there the level is 19%. The overall rate of furloughing, across the country, is 27%.
British Airways will make 12,000 staff redundant despite the availability of an 80% wage subsidy.
This all suggests things will not be what they used to be at the end of lockdown.
Was the great depression but a walk in the park?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 10:34 AM

For arts and entertainment, it is at 67%

This is the only one of the sectors mentioned that I have any sort of connection with. I can tell you that Northern Ballet has furloughed all its dancers, orchestra and at least some of the permanent technical staff and is topping up the additional 20% of salary. There are other ancillary staff they have not mentioned in the newsletter I get, but I imagine many of them are not so fortunate. How long they can continue to pay that 20% has to be open to question.

Conversely, a lot of people in the arts are on short term contracts, to cover one particular film, show or whatever. All of the people I am in touch with in that position have had the contract terminated.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 01:07 PM

Johnson says that thee crisis has passed its peak but there will not be an easing of the lock-down
British Airways has suggested that it is considering abandoning Heathrow in future   
Ji,

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 06:18 PM

Gatwick, Jim, not Heathrow. BA is a very profitable company which is behaving disgracefully.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 20 - 01:56 AM

They should do it. We have a large airport not far from here, with A1, M1, and East Coast Main Line links, a huge runway (ex-Vulcan base), modern facilities, plenty of room for expansion, and currently very much under-used.

Contrary to the delusion most politicians and fackin’ satherners seem suffer from, the world doesn’t end beyond the M25.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 03:55 AM

"Heathrow"
I only heard it in passing, but I could have sworn Heathrow was mentioned ans being adversely effected - might have overdone the poitín
One of our regular posters wrote to me once boiling with anger about the new runway which was likely to lose him his home
I dropped him a line and am awaiting a reply
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:28 AM

Contrary to the delusion most politicians and fackin’ satherners seem suffer from, the world doesn’t end beyond the M25.

M25? That is well in the north for some of us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:32 AM

Just had conirmation that something is happening with Heathrow, though my mate says it is "posturing" on the part of BA

" the world doesn’t end beyond the M25."
'Course it doesn't it ends at the Naas Road - according to Dublin
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:47 AM

There was a young lady called Dinah
With a music box in her vagina
The boys they had larks
To the sweet sound of Bach's
Toccata and fugue in D minor

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Oops, me context has disappeared! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:50 AM

No it hasn't: I put this in the wrong thread. It should have gone in the Congratulations one. Think I'll go back to bed and get up again...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 06:21 AM

Hey Barb'ry, would you be kind enough to remove this and my previous three posts? I'm in the wrong thread don't y'know! Sorry...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:07 AM

What have I told you about drinking late Steve ?

Despite expert advice to the contrary and his own promised recently, Johnson has said that they will hold a cabinet meeting necxt week in order to get the lock-down ended as soon as possible for the sake of the British Economy
Priorities always were to the forefront in Tory policy, weren't they
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:25 AM

From the BBC

"The government will release a series of papers next week outlining its approach on how to safely and gradually restart the economy.
It invited submissions by Thursday from businesses, trade bodies, unions and other workers representatives on how best to slowly restart the UK economy.
It's thought the proposals will not be split bluntly by sector but by working environment.
But there is no confirmed date yet for when such a restart will occur."

How the government plans to get the UK back to work

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:33 AM

I see no medical ad advisors on that list RD
Possibly in line with the article in this morning's Times which says that "Politicians must have the final say" and there is nothing wrong with unelected non-experts like Scumminigs being a part of these decisions
One of the impressions his public appearances have left me with is that he isn't exactly a fastidious individual and doesn't put personal hygene on his list of 'must-dos'
I wonder if the attendees will ask for protective clothing - just a thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:50 AM

200