BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:15 AM

Iains's voting figures from the Irish election add up to 110%!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:21 AM

Yes Dick, New Zealand, has two advantages, first it is remote, second it has by far the most capable national leader in the anglophone world. I say national leader there, because Dan Andrews the Victorian state premier would run her close. He is of course getting savaged in the mewling Murdoch press, but he is good. The Australian states, rather than the Australian federal government, are largely responsible for the relatively good performance of Australia in the Coronavirus crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:24 AM

The idea that you would even consider lifting the lockdown in England is bizarre, not to say murderous. This is of course a devolved issue in the rest of the UK, and Sturgeon and Drakeford will hold their ground, as they seem to value people above profit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:32 AM

"I also have dealt with data all my working life,compiling,collating and analysing."

Well yes. However, your vast experience didn't prevent you from confusing one rather simple set of data with another earlier today, did it? As you think the Guardian is so unreliable, etc., perhaps you'd be a good fit if you went and worked there...

And now:

"Iain's voting figures from the Irish election add up to 110%!"

Grimm! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:51 AM

I don't think that the idea of easing (rather than lifting) the lockdown is bizarre. I certainly don't think that the idea is murderous or just putting profit before people.

I expect that they will start to ease restrictions. In all probability the fact that they are talking about it will prompt more people to get out and about this weekend, especially if the weather is ok.

We do need to be considering how we return to 'normal' or the 'new normal' while also keeping an eye on what happens with regards to the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Monique
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:53 AM

Irish elections results. Iain's figures are the number of seats, not the %.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:59 AM

The figures were from the express and did not specify what they alluded to. I assumed incorrectly. They actually state the number of seats in the Dáil Éireann,of which there are another 31 I believe, split between a number of minor parties. The lefty greens are the next largest contingent with 12 seats.

Ireland now Iains
You keep on insisting Ireland is the promised land and has shown the way of the righteous, I merely point out it ain't as rosy as you like to make out.

I am very satisfied with the wayy the governmennt is dealing with the crisis, had it been compo clowns I dread to think what would have happened. That is not to say the actions have been   perfect. Perhaps too much emphasis given to   the pantless prat ffrom Imperial with his scaremongering. (his record of the foot and mouth outbreak was many degrees shy of stellar - and how much did that cost?)
I also have issues with the committee that dealt with care homes and their three pathways for emptying hospital beds. Seems to me there was a fourth pathway emanating from Liverpool as a direct result of their recommendations

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/880288/COVID-19_hospital_dischar

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 05:48 AM

the(Labour) party is more concerned about people and less worried about safeguarding businesses,
Yup! That is labour through and through. Shake rattle and roll the magic money tree!
But if lockdown has trashed the economy labour's popsicles cannot be purchased. The usual total disconnect of the left exemplified above.
If lockdown is prolonged the economy will not be simply hurt, but destroyed. No government can continue to pay a workforce to be idle.
Today it is merely a virus scaring people. On the present path tomorrow will be starvation and societal collapse. Take your choice!
Gettingupin the morning presents risk. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 05:53 AM

"You keep on insisting Ireland is the promised land and has shown the way of the righteous, "
Anybody whoio did that would be incredibly stupid
Ireland id a Capitalist country increasingly dominated and occasionally ruined by Bankers with a superior electoral system to offset ot at least slow down the worst aspects of that fact
It has it's problems as does every other similarly placed country inside the EU and outside but here the people have a louder voice and are not brushed aside once the election results are announced
Demonstrations on the street on water, homelessness, and poverty have caused major rethinks of policy and will continue to do so as several of those demonstrations have led to the setting up of political parties that have now won a voice in the Dail
Ther is no guarantee for the future but at least thaere is a move to getting one
Britain has yet to move from feudal dominance with such throwbacks as a 'constitutional monarchy', and a House of Lords' used for rewarding the rich and the political sell-outs - elderly men (largely) who use 'the other place' as a gentleman's club for an afternoon nap
I think Monique's country had the right idea when they settled their 'growing poverty problem' on the Place de la Concorde a few centuries ago (Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:10 AM

david NZ is NOT remote as regards air travel, NEITHER is Australia

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:11 AM

(Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts) What utter nonsense!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:25 AM

Iains: (Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts) What utter nonsense!

I think Jim is only referring to the low level street lights with cross bars just below the lamp level, suitable for lynchings. (from the rest of his comment). This suggests that he feels mob rule could still be a valid option.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:02 AM

Nigel it is held by many that we are but 9 meals from anarchy when the vittles run out. Perhaps Jim secretly agrees that extended lockdown will have unhappy outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:27 AM

Thanks Nigel
If you were serious (I hope you were's) you share your fellow Torie's lack of a sense of hmour
We already have mob rule - it's called populism and it took us out of Europe
Using race hate as a political weapon is exactly that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:30 AM

Interesting   point of view   from Sweden (from the lancet):
COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown   might   delay   severe cases for a while, but once restrictions   are   eased,   cases   will   reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2931035-7
Rather different to the line being peddled by many here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:37 AM

Whether New Zealand is or not remote in terms of air traffic is a matter of judgement. For comparison, in 2019 the UK top ten airports had 254,628,734 total passengers of whom 186,339,975 are terminating whereas New Zealand had 41,327,639 total passengers. I am not sure how many of these are between the islands, but I would expect quite a high proportion.

('Terminating' means they were not taking a onward flight elsewhere.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:57 AM

Jim not everyone is going to vote the same way as you. I sometimes think you will only ever be happy in a one party state (as long as that party was the one that you supported)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:22 AM

"Jim not everyone is going to vote the same way as you."
Of course they're not RD but given The Bank of England has just predicted that Britain is heading for a recession depper than ever recorded and a doubling of Unemployment figures, I defy anyone to predict how the British people will vote in the future
The old 'Pie in the sky' election promises were already wearing pretty thin before all this happened - a situation worse that the 'Hungry Twenties' is hardly going to have the turkeys rushing to the polls to vote for Christmas, is it?
Does anybody really believe the Briish people to be as stupid or as altruistic towards those who already have too much to spend in ten lifetimes? I don't

A single party system is necessary at a time when a system is changing - such as post WW! Russia; that's's not going to happen either
What we have in Britain as a pretense for democracy is a one system system
When that system ceases to serve all the people, as it has been or a long time, new ways forward have to be found - the logical one at present being an agreed coalition of all responsible parties dedicated to clearing up the pandemic mess
Any attempts to return to the old 'dog-eat-dog' system will lead to total anarchy - you only have to remember the mess Thatcher created in dividing Britain into North and South and smashing age old industries without replacing them - mass demonstrations, Poll Tax riots and a sharp and continuing rise in racism (which included institution racism in the forces of 'law and order'
Is that your idea of democracy ?
If so - I suggest you rethink your 'sheep to the slaughter' image of the British 'ordinary person'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:26 AM

If you have a repy RD - I suggest you look a little nearer home that 'Sweden' - whataboutism ain't gonna impress either
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:47 AM

We already have mob rule - it's called populism and it took us out of Europe
Hilarious Democracy took us   out   of europe.
Democracy elected MPs who would honour the referendum and get brexit done.
Populism wrecked the parliamentary careers of the traitors.
That was democracy in action.!
Populism=a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
Rather explains how Boris kicked labour into the long grass. Ignore the electorate at your peril. They always have the whip hand.
Boris is getting more popular by the day- that is populism in action.
Doncha jus luv it!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:14 AM

"Hilarious Democracy took us   out   of europe."
Tell the victims of the sharp rise in racism that was used to take Britain out that
Or does democracy only count for WASPs
HERE
Democracy can only be democratic when all the facts are available to everybody
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:33 AM

Incidentally
I assume everybody is aware that the unstable Prick on Pennsylvanian Avenue
has threatened retaliation against China for deliberately starting the virus
Now that really is going to help the World Economy no end - innit - not to mention the Doomsday Clock
Anybody who believes things don't have to change must be as bonkers as he is
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:54 AM

Doomsday Clock jumped a lot closer this year with Trump in place.

Iains loves to use examples that set all of you on edge, he calculates his posts in order to do that. Whether or not accounts stay open or take time off for bad behavior, it would be nice if you would stop feeding the troll.

Reminders aren't invitations to reply or argue.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:19 AM

There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:

======

Johnson has told his cabinet that the government will adopt “maximum caution” as it moves to ease the lockdown. Johnson chaired a cabinet meeting this morning and, according to the prime minister’s spokesman, Johnson told his ministers:

We are not going to do anything that risks a second peak. We will advance with maximum caution in order to protect the NHS and to save lives. We will be guided at every step by the science and the data and we will closely track the impact of any easing of the social distancing measures and will not hesitate to tighten the rules if required.

======

The flavour of this is very different to a lot of newspaper headlines, including the Daily Mail, the Sun, the Express and the Daily Star, which all talk as if there will be a substantial relaxation of the lockdown from Monday. The Telegraph is more stately, merely saying '"Stay at Home" advice to be scrapped', but all of them seem counter to the "maximum caution" approach from number 10.

If populism wins out, we could wipe out all the potential benefits of the lockdown at a stroke.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:52 AM

Absolutely Mac
The message from number 10 is contradictory - the only consistency lies with the exxpets who say "to soon" - though the may differ in nuance on occasion
Busness cannot have a say in this on the ground of 'self interest'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:54 AM

Jim posted "If so - I suggest you rethink your 'sheep to the slaughter' image of the British 'ordinary person'"

I think that is more your image than mine Jim. Oh and I did not mention Sweden either.

+
DMcG

I think that we will see some relaxation but not a substantial relaxation of the lockdown. I agree that the press coverage, as usual, has not helped along with the message that something will be said on Sunday. I was in town late morning and there were quite a few people walking around, albeit keeping a safe distance from each other. There was the usual manoeuvring to obtain a more southern position in the precinct. If the weather holds I expect to see more people out and about over the long weekend.

Might well be an idea to allow, encourage DIY stores and garden centres to open, if they have not done so already. Shame to waste all that spare time that people had.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:08 AM

I see that Household Waste Recycling Centres are reopening around the country. Not before time. Here in Kent they are reopening from 15.5.20 for 'essential' use. Slots will have to be booked in advance and you will only be able to book one trip in any 4 week period.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:39 AM

" Oh and I did not mention Sweden either."
Somebody else sahring your politics did
" complain about perceived insults."
" you might all be able to get out more."
Which wasn't an insult of course
Iains has been branded a troll by the mods who have instructed us to ignore him - think on't
"I think that is more your image than mine Jim"
That's the definition of the populism Iains advocates for - read the FT article and tell me it isn't
It gavve the world Hitler ansd Mussolini - now it has given Britain Brexit
As I said - business should never have a say in people's well-being - the fact that it has here sums up the contradictory loyalties of your Government
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:45 AM

Farage is at it again. Stopped once again by the Police in Dover.

What an arsehole this man is. I hope the Police throw the book at him. He has been spoken to once and had obviously ignored the warning.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:46 AM

Jim posted "Somebody else sahring your politics did."

Oh how wrong you are and not for the first time. I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:58 AM

No he was not stopped at Dover. The police went to visit him up north in Kent after complaints were made about his visit, after he had posted his video I imagine.

He seems to find it hard being out of the limelight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:09 PM

You are correct Rain Dog, the report says he went to the kent Coast.

Link

Either way he is breaking the rules that the rest of us have to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:27 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."

Not helpful. And not true.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:46 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."
Not helpful. And not true.

How can anyone deny what Rain Dog sees?
He may be mistaken in what he believes he sees, but no one can fairly state that his comment is not true!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:52 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."
I am trying to avoid that level of insulting - can I request you do
I see you vaguely a government-status quo supporter who regards a suggestion of change as a call to revolution, or at least "a one party system"
If I made a mistake, I apologise - If you can mistake my political position -as you continue to do, than I hope I can be forgiven for mistaking yours
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 01:12 PM

Incidentally - I was referring to Iainls political philosophy - certainl not his behaviour
He stands unique on that front
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 01:52 PM

There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:
I think not!
The media thrive on gotcha moments and sniping at the government of the day.
The worldometer website clearly shows the UK is atypical in the graphs displayed compared to Spain for example. Spain shows a pronounced peak in both infections and deaths, thus providing a clear timeline for relaxation of lockdown measures.   The curves for the UK are less pronounced and thus give   no clear timeline yet for relaxation measures. Why this atypical behaviour is shown is unknown, but I suspect having heathrow as the busiest hub in europe may well have a role to play.
The mail claims the UK has had the most deaths in Europe.This is announced with no qualification.
However in terms of deaths per million of population(a much safer metric, despite being not directly comparable) Spain, Italy annd Belgium show higher figures. Typical mainstream   scaremongering with no basis in reality.
UK 66.5 million   Deaths 30,615 451/million
Italy 60.36million   Death29,998 485/million

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:50 PM

and in other news
Has Germany just blown up the Eurozone?
While the Constitutional Court found that the ECB’s regular QE activity (e.g. the Public Sector Purchasing Programme) does not contravene Article 123 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the verdict specifies the necessary conditions that the PSPP satisfies. The implication is that the Pandemic Emergency Purchasing Programme does not satisfy them.

In other words, even the minor concession made to the vulnerable members of the Eurozone is now under threat. As for Eurobonds, forget it! They’re not happening. Not now, not ever.
https://unherd.com/thepost/has-germany-just-blown-up-the-eurozone/
I wonder how   they will stick    a bandaid on this little contretemps?
https://www.ft.com/content/db720dde-19e8-4e9c-bbfb-b4d48db71a6c

        Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [e-mail] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
        https://www.ft.com/content/db720dde-19e8-4e9c-bbfb-b4d48db71a6c

        The decision has the potential to unleash a constitutional crisis in the EU’s biggest member state and with it the entire eurozone. It raises questions about the ECB’s sacrosanct independence and the credibility of the rulings of the EU’s highest court in Luxembourg.
What a can of worms!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:52 PM

That   was sent before   I had finished editing and previewing.
My   apologies. I   thought I had ticked the preview

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:59 PM

Just opened my regular ad from the Israeli Labour paper Haaretz covering the antics of the wanker in the White-House

Jews Control Chinese Labs That Created Coronavirus': White Supremacists’ Dangerous New Conspiracy Theory

Wonder if Israel will push on with their plans to name the new Jerusalem railway station after him !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:09 PM

The Horses's Mouth admission without the lethal political bullshit

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/uk-office-for-national-statistics-says-death-toll-has-climbed-above-32000-to-mark-worst-in-europe-ahead-of-italy-2020-05-05
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:47 PM

The worst figures in Europe are actually from Belgium with a   death rate of 726 per million of population. A crude death rate of a country unqualified by population numbers is   meaningless, even more so   when death statistics are   gathered in different ways with varying accuracy country   to country. Direct comparisons are not possible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:59 AM


There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:
I think not!
(then a whole bunch of stuff about papers attacking governments, death rates and so on)


That is not what I was talking about. What I was referring to was that the popular press has been implying a significant relaxation of lockdown was imminent and so popular opinion might decide that they could breach the rules early. The government is fighting hard (Thursday night) to recover the position and say the lockdown must continue, after all the tabloids on Wednesday proclaimed Monday might the day we are somehow freed. Not only are the government apparently concerned a lot of the population could in effect defy the government rules, you are getting similar expressions of concern from the police.

The papers on Friday seem to be more sober, and fortunately seem to have dropped this potentially damaging - even fatal - line about relaxing the rules.   The Prime Minister has still created a problem for himself on Sunday when he said at Wednesday's PMQ there may be some relaxation on Sunday, and the police are still indicating they are worried about what that might do to the following weekend, but I think since the press have cut back on the promotion, the risk of widespread rule-breaking is reduced.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:14 AM

While people continue to die the Government and its supporters quibble over whether the figures are the worst or second worst in Europe and whether the admitted "worst" means numbers or percentages"
Nice to know our futures are in safe, responsible hands
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:44 AM

You are the one first making an issue of numbers. Date: 07 May 20 - 03:09 PM
I merely point out that giving raw figures without any context is not only misleading, but wrong. There is no way to stop the virus, merely to attempt to control the rate of spread. As a swedish professor states: by the time the dust has settled the mortality rates are liable to be similar throughoout Europe.
It is also important to point out that lockdown has done nothing to help the most vulnerable in care homes. Not just in the UK but Ireland, France, Spain and likely all other countries when the final analysis is done.
By emptying hospital beds and mothballing nightingale hospitals, where did all these elderly people go? and how thorough was the testing regime?
Was the horrific care home death toll the fault of government, the NHS, or society? We employ "experts" - what went wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:20 AM

As ever, James O’Brien setting out the truth about the Johnson administration’s cluelessness over how to handle the pandemic (despite there being plenty of clues from China, New Zealand, Spain, Italy, South Korea, etc.) and their obsession with ‘public approval ratings’ (rather like Trump), culminating in the briefing of their tame ‘newspapers’ {spit} in order for them to run what amounts to an unofficial opinion-poll on what to do next...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/coruscating-monologue-uk-response-coronavirus/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:25 AM

The numbers are important - defending them is political posturing and highly dangerous - it encourages complacency
You merely defended a shitty Government rather than pointing out the dangerously high figures - as you do
The goverment has fucked up

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:44 AM

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/17/coronavirus-care-homes-could-be-where-over-half-of-europe-s-covid-19-deaths-occur-says-new

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:56 AM

RA report of the effects of Populism from te organisation set up to monitor freedom end democracy in Europe has reported that Hungary is no longer a democratic Country since populism put Orban in the driving seat and Poland is heading in the same direction
Things really have got to change
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:06 AM

Don't forget that with the exception of Kier Starmer, whom I have a lot of time for, is totally inefective, completely and totally ineffective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!