BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:21 AM

one little virus to be conveniently blamed for the national economic disaster
'we' all anticipated brexit might cause...

..a bit like sneakily hiding a few murder victims under a pile of pandemic deaths in a mass grave...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

The last vote took 93 minutes, because MPs had to queue up. If there are four or five votes in a day, that is 3 hours or more queuing, with a section of this in in the rain if the weather is bad.

I don't believe MPs will do this. They will simply not vote, just like my MP last night. Maybe he is self isolating, or may he could not be bothered, I don't know.   But either way, this reduces representation in Parliament significantly.

Warning: Germany reference coming up, but at least it is not the usual ones.

One thing I never really understood about the Enabling Act in Germany in 1933 is why the members of Parliament voted to give themselves less power: in normal circumstance that seems counter-intuitive. But in the circumstances we are in, MPs are also voting to give themselves less power, albeit less directly. Basically, each MP who voted for this said if they have to go into isolation, they want their constituency to be unrepresented.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:24 AM

Why are no women taking part in decision making for lockdown?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM

we'd be better of if Patel was involved...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

The last vote took 93 minutes, because MPs had to queue up. If there are four or five votes in a day, that is 3 hours or more queuing

Sorry for the odd maths in that. The first vote on the amendment took 40 minutes, so I took that into account in saying 3 or more hours. Obviously at around 1.5 hours each you do not need four or five to reach 3 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:27 PM

John Crace, as ever, telling it exactly like it is about Johnson’s latest PMQs disaster. Sir Keir Starmer’s demolition of the blustering, arm-waving intellectually-lightweight Johnson - even on a day when Starmer wasn’t at his usual best - was so complete, I almost felt sorry for Johnson. Almost.

Johnson, knowing he was a beaten man before he even stepped up to face Starmer, did his usual Blame-Shifting act, trying to lay his totally inept handling of the Covid-19 crisis at Labour’s door. And he steadfastly refused to condemn Agent Orange for his disastrous handling of the George Floyd murder and its aftermath.

How much longer can Johnson keep getting away with his constant failures?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 07:11 PM

Two very good telly reports tonight. Dispatches on Channel 4 gave an excoriating account of this government's inept path through this crisis, and Katie Razzall's report on Newsnight was a devastating condemnation by facts of this government's murderous care home policy. And murderous is not too strong a word.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:50 AM

The tale of Alok Sharma will 'have legs' (as they say) if he is confirmed as positive.

If Parliamentarians do not self-isolate after contact with him, it will be the 'one rule for us and one for you' all over again.   If they do, it will once again call the reopening into question - in fact, it could even be necessary to close it again. Then there is the fact that all the MPs are now traipsing back back to their constituencies, potentially carrying the infection, which will also question the 'travel as far as you like for work and exercise' decisions.

Then there is the effectiveness of 'track and trace' with him as a test case.

Moreover, because he was ill so publicly, it cannot be hushed up as some other cases have been. All in all, if he does test positive, yet another headache for the government.

And, given how visible and relatively sudden the symptoms were, if he does not test positive there might be questions about whether the tests are reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7zkejgYSlg

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 07:15 AM

26 Jun 2017 - Michael Gove says 'no' to chlorinated chicken
The Environment Secretary Michael Gove has said chickens that have been washed in chlorine will not be allowed in the UK as part of any trade deal, once the UK leaves the European Union.

4 June 2020 - Government ready to open British markets to chlorinated chicken for US trade deal"

Let's not get into arguments about whether it is 'safe' or not, and focus on how this is yet another broken commitment.

If we do have to widen it, let's ask for the slightest evidence their promises on the NHS should be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:26 AM

I buy lots and lots of chicken, always free-range. It's always British. Not that I particularly look for British either. I'm slightly baffled by the idea that we need to import any chicken. Maybe I don't look hard enough...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM

I have a concern about the chicken angle, I must admit. It is just symbolic of the difference in food standards rather than itself key: banning chicken imports but allowing everything else would not do. I suspect we might end up with such a deal, and then in a decade or so get rid of the "anomaly" in the trade agreement mentioning chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM

We buy whatever deals we can afford on any day in Tesco,
we're that skint even on the wife's senior teacher salary..

Our informed education and knowldege about quality healthy foods is usless,
when we ain't got the £££s..

There's too many folks much worse off than us..
we're all the ones at risk from tory lies
about 'not' selling out food and health standards to trump's gangster mob...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 04:49 AM

Liz Gerrard, in Thursday’s ‘New European’, telling the sorry tale of how we are being taken for fools by The Johnson Gang.

Those of us whe haven’t fallen for the Right’s propaganda, or their three-word slogans, big red buses etc. already know it, but it doesn’t hurt to make the point, very eloquently, once more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

Look! Labour antisemitism!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:50 AM

;-) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:32 AM

Priti Patel, defender of Cummings's driveabouts up country and taking a risk by allowin people to full London Tube trains fro the sake of the economy, has urged people not to attend the demonstrations against racism that are now taking place all over the planet; some lves matter, some don't with some people
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:55 AM

It’s the money, follow the money, it’s always the money with the Nasty Greedy Party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

Laarge 'Black Lives Matter' demonstrations all over Britain despite Patel's warning
Thousands packed into Parliament Square them marched to the American Embassy - most appeared to be wearing protective masks - they were being handed out by stewards
Makes you proud
Let's see what Johnson and Patel have to say about the murder
A large demonstration in Australia which has been extended to include Aboriginal rights
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

Whilst I have every empathy with the marchers I am afraid there will be a very high price to be paid for these gatherings.

I suspect that some people on the marches will contract the virus because of their attendance and that some of those people will die.

Like I suggest a very high price.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Raggy - the foolhardy bravado of young idealistic protesters..

I'm always conflicted in my thoughts about the effectiveness of mass demonstrations......

..but as our boldly coloured Rock Against Racism badges
proudly sloganised 40 odd years ago - when I was 18..

"Black and White, UNITE and FIGHT...".....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:10 PM

..btw.. does Priti Patel's thickly plastered glamorous make-up count as a protective mask...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

Laarge 'Black Lives Matter' demonstrations all over Britain despite Patel's warning
. . .
Let's see what Johnson and Patel have to say about the murder

Boris Johnson has already commented: Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said is appalled and sickened by the death of George Floyd, and that his message to people in the US is that "racist violence has no place in our society". from BBC, Here

Also Priti Patel has commented (by Twitter) Just received update from
@metpoliceuk
. Thanked officers & expressed my concern at small number of reports of violence.

I'm sickened at George Floyd's death. But protests must be peaceful & in accordance with social distancing rules. from Here

So to suggest that we still await comments from them is a little disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:23 PM

Nigel - so.. do we all have to follow twitter by the minute now..

.. and how many accounts should be subscribed to,
so as to stay on top of breaking important PR twitterings...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:27 PM

No, no need to follow Twitter at all.
I read Jim's post as suggesting that he believed that Johnson & Patel had not commented on the murder, so I just did a quick search to put the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:38 PM

Nigel - Personally, I'm more inclined to believe Jim states what he actually honestly believes,
than any weaselly platitudes from boris and patel...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:27 PM

Lip service by both - especially by Patel
Expressing regret is like the automatic condolences meted out by people who neither knew nor cared about the deceased
THese are representative of the British peeople, Johnson has a track record fro the racism that is being protested about and Patel orders the people not to be part of the world protest because of Covid
Both - both of these hypocritical bastards have fought tooth and nail to protect the prickeen who flouted his own ******
rules on Covid
You can have my apology Nigel - if you don't mind waiting till Hell freezes over
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

AN ATERTHOUGHT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 02:18 AM

I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before. If there is a second wave, we will conveniently forget the crowded beaches of Bournemouth, Durdle Door and the rest. It will all be blamed "on these blacks meeting in large crowds at the height of the virus." And we the government 'warned them not to because of the risk of spreading the virus.' It looks to me like this is getting the government off a very nasty hook and putting the blame for a second wave with thousands of deaths on 'the blacks'. Which will hardly help resolve institutionalised racism.

I would like to say I had a neat answer to the dilemma of whether to take part in a justified protest like this or not given the virus, but I don't. The only sorts of thing I can think of are very unconventional, like a totally silent slow march with everyone two or three metres apart, but how you organise and manage that I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 03:22 AM

"I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before."
That is the excuse Priti Patel gave for not supporting the march
Anything we do now is a risk - London tube trains appear to be back to their 'cattle truck' status, schools are returning shortly, despite the fact it has been admitted that it is impossible to get children to 'social distance', workers who are unable to work at home have to go back to their workplace are risking their jobs if they refuse to go into work...
The world is, for the first time, on it's feet demanding rights for Blacks and the end to institutional murder
Trump and his puppets are hoping this "terrorism on the streets" will blow over and are using the pandemic to blunt its obviously growing effect (it wouldn't surprise me if Don the Dick hadn't 'found God' for a little divine backup
Going for the newspaper if a risk at present - as far as I'm concerned, some risks are worth taking - I wouldn't be without my daily Codeword and I wouldn't ak people to do without their rights
INTERESTING SNIPPET
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 03:44 AM

That's what I said "I would like to say I had a neat answer to the dilemma of whether to take part in a justified protest like this or not given the virus, but I don't", Jim. You and I know that the racists would love to put all the blame for a second wave on these protestors, and I have no doubt they will do everything they can to do that. I can see that making racism worse.

That is not to say the protests should not happen. The causes are just as valid as they would be if there was no virus. But given we know governments are very practiced at completely ignoring demonstrations, maybe we need to think long and hard about the best way to do it. Which is why I suggested one possibility could be a funeral march of thousands, long, slow, silent and socially distanced. I don't know how you organise that. But I think it could be more impactful than a "standard" protest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 05:48 AM

"You and I know that the racists would love to put all the blame for a second wave on these protestors,"D' YOU RECKON ?
They'd get away with that one, wouldn't they ?
I don't think
I suggest you read the predictions by the Yanks that these demos will peter out without having achieved anything
I think they are bigger than that
Bring 'em on, I say
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM

Just doing a few 'back of the envelope' calculations, here.

Matt Hancock said last week and also today on the Andrew Marr Show, that there is around 1 person in a 1000 infected at the moment. If that is true, and it is also true that there were 'tens of thousands' in the marches, it is reasonable to assume a few tens of people infected in the march. There are problems with that assumption, because it assumes a uniform spread of infections, but it will do as a starting point.

A protest is an unusual situation, because of close contact with a lot of people you don't know for a long time, but it is also outside. The R rate will not be the 1-ish of the lockdown, nor will it be 3 to 4 of 'normal circumstances': I would guess it may be several times higher - 10 or more.

So we have a rough guess that this might cause say 300 additional infections initially. If they have an R of around 1 when they get home, this is no worse than the infection rate around the end of May. (June 5th reported as 1557 per day, 2095 on May 29th)

So not negligible by any means, but it should be manageable. More of an unknown is how this is altered because we are relaxing other restrictions at the same time. Of the two, I would expect the relaxations to be more significant simply because we are talking of around 70 million people rather than a few tens of thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 02:59 AM

Priorities Mac - if this surge in opposition is put on the long finger, that's where it will remain - the urgent issue that spiked an already simmering problem by being used for Brexit will continue to escalate if the ball is dropped now
It is sickening to here the pratings of comfortably well-off Asians like Mad Maggie Patel telin people these demonstrations are not safe, then switching over to hear another government or business spokesmen urging to "take the risk, ignore the advice of the experts, send the kids back to school and clamber onto the crammed buses and tubes and go back to work for the sake of Britain's future
I hard a new (to me) word yesterday, from a business spokesman - "It's time we started to ignore the advice of these MEDOCRATS"
These heartening demonstrations are putting the heart that was torn out of Britain by shites like Farage, back into Britain - it should be encoraged to keep beating
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:06 AM

There's a very relevant article by Tony Benn circulating. I particularly like the final sentence of this:

Now, Wilberforce was a very interesting man. He was a Conservative, he supported Pitt, he voted for the Combination Act which made it a criminal offence for more than three people to get together to call for a trade union or political reform, and then he became a Christian and he was stirred by the injustice of it and campaigned, and that’s what we’re celebrating this year, the abolition of the slave trade. And, might I add, not the abolition of slavery, don’t think that Wilberforce brought about the abolition of slavery but only the slave trade.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 02:18 AM

I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before. If there is a second wave, we will conveniently forget the crowded beaches of Bournemouth, Durdle Door and the rest. It will all be blamed "on these blacks meeting in large crowds at the height of the virus."

A comment which cheerfully ignores the fact that a good percentage of those protesting were 'white'. Anyone looking at photos of the protests, and the BBC footage, will see that quite clearly. Of course, it may be a little obscured by the fact that all those chosen for interview on last night's (BBC) news programmes were from ethnic minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:45 AM

"a good percentage of those protesting were 'white'."
One of the most hopeful aspects of this - that won't stop bumwipes like the Daily Heil making it a black thingy - when has it ever ?
Several aitcles and photos this morning of the slave-owner's statue being daubed with paint and thrown into Bristol Harbour - by white and black protesters - makes the heart skip
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:53 AM

Several aitcles and photos this morning of the slave-owner's statue being daubed with paint and thrown into Bristol Harbour - by white and black protesters - makes the heart skip
Jim
It might make your heart skip. I see it as vandalism perpetrated under the cover of supposedly peaceful protest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:58 AM

No, Nigel, that did not escape me, and I fully agree that the inclusiveness is a sign of hope.

But I am talking about how it will be presented if we have a second wave. I could, of course, be entirely wrong - it has been known! - but we will have to wait and see. All I can go on so far is the commentary I have seen elsewhere 'below the line' on press articles and similar, and that makes me suspect those who are black may well be blamed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:12 AM

re that statue going down. i thought it was great - just as a visible, symbolic sign of legitimate protest. very seldom do we get to witness something that's positive for people - a cheering wee victory! (i'm reminded of the heartwarming story of margaret thatcher and a cricket bat) if we call this a crime - how does it compare to the crimes of the slave owners who never lived to stand trial or face the consequences of their actions - and got a statue? obviously.

apparently, the statue will be placed in a museum and a history written of the guy's significance to Bristol and to black history. The mayor also explained that dumping the statue in the river is now part of colston's and Bristol's history - so for once the story is not written by and for rich and powerful white men.

juat a wee revolutionary moment - everyone learns and everyone wins!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM

"I see it as vandalism"
And I see it as a long-overdue recognition of a truly evil past
THese statues weren't put up for dogs to piss upon, though it might have been a good use for them
I went home to Liverpool after a longish gap was a little bemused to be taken by my sisters to the docks where I had served my apprenticeship
We went to a magnificent Slavery Museum built on the spot where the bidding had once taken place - I new it as a storage shed for the unloaded ships
I didn't feel that to be vandalisation
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM

Good to see that you're one of the huffers and puffers, true to form I'd say, who I referred to in my post on the Black Lives thread, Nigel. If they stick the thing in a museum, hopefully with a full explanation of the man's horrid part in the slave trade, I hope they leave the graffiti on it. For the record, I'm fully with Pete and the Bristol protesters on this.

The Liverpool museum seemed to me to be a frank confronting by the city of the most shameful episode in its past, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 02:48 AM

A small step in the right direction Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:46 AM

‘News thump’, making clear Johnson’s hypocrisy when he criticises the use of violence to achieve an aim.

And before any nitpickers are tempted to wade in, I know it’s not a ‘real’ news site, but it makes a valid point, in a humorous way, that a big, fat, blustering, clueless buffoon in a glasshouse shouldn’t throw stones. It’s called ‘satire’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:15 AM

That's "satire"? Well, maybe to an American readership.
That's not just a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:01 AM

The Tory Times reports this morning that The Tory Party knowingly accepted a £50,000 election donation from a pharmaceutical tax fraudster who ripped off the NHS for at least £14m (it cost him £15m to settle the case)
Basically, the last Government came to power at the expense of sick Britons who wre given Theresa May as a receipt.
It's comforting to know that the Briish people have Parliamentary Democracy to keep them warm on cold nights - innit?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM

And before any nitpickers are tempted to wade in, I know it’s not a ‘real’ news site, but it makes a valid point, in a humorous way, that a big, fat, blustering, clueless buffoon in a glasshouse shouldn’t throw stones. It’s called ‘satire’.

No, it's not satire. It's bollocks.
So called 'satirical' sites can say what they want, and claim it's 'satire'. It doesn't need to contain a shred of truth. I selected a small part of the Johnson 'quote': Well, except when you're using it to put the frighteners on a journalist who is investigating things you don't want them to and put it into Google. Surprise surprise, the only 'hit' I got was the Newsthump article itself. If they are going to back up any comments they make by using invented quotes then they are not worth linking to or quoting. Unless by someone who is easily fooled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM

Er, the story is true, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:13 AM

According to Wikipedia: During a telephone call in 1990, Guppy asked Boris Johnson (then a journalist at The Telegraph) to provide the home address of News of the World journalist Stuart Collier. Collier had been making enquiries into Guppy's background, and in response, Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995.

There are certainly lots of references to the story in the papers from that time. I am confident if you searched long and hard enough we would someone somewhere has transcribed the exact words Johnson used.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:15 AM

prove it