Norma Waterson - information wanted

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Winick
Date: 19 May 01 - 04:27 PM

Kim C:

I think there are different philosophies at work here regarding the technical aspects of singing. It seems you have technical requirements that you apply separately from aesthetic requirements. I don't do that. From my point of view, someone absolutely cannot be a great singer and not know how to sing. This is an absurdity--like saying you can be a great football player and not know how to play football, or a great writer and not know how to write. If you are a great singer, then you know how to sing. It cannot be otherwise. This is because, in my philosophy, the technical aspects of singing are there only to serve the singing, the communication of the music and message.

I think my philosophy is based on my being an ethnographer with training in Anthropology, Folklore and Ethnomusicology. One thing I learned was that different traditions have entirely different standards, both technically and otherwise. Louis Armstrong and Luciano Pavoratti have nothing in common technically, but both are great singers. Norma Waterson has nothing in common with either of them technically, but is also a great singer. Kaluli tribespeople in Papua New Guinea have great singers, too...again, with no technique in common with the others.

What is usually happening when people complain that English gypsy singers can't sing (these are Norma's main influences) is that the commentators have been trained in a particular tradition, be it classical, jazz or whatever. In other words, they apply technical standards from completely outside the culture being commented upon, standards that the singers would not even recognize as valid. That's generally the problem with a "technical" approach--how do you even know what technical standards are appropriate to apply? You have to do a lot of studying of English source singers before you can even say if Norma has technical proficiency or not.

Granted, Norma sings songs from outside this tradition, and that may be what bugged people in the first place. It is perfectly valid for you to say that she isn't good at Jazz standards, if that's a tradition you are well-versed in. But to say she flat-out cannot sing, as Challis did, is to presume that you know a lot about her tradition.

Of course, the more important question is: do you like her singing? If not, don't listen and if so, listen. That's the simplest philosophy of all.

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: sledge
Date: 19 May 01 - 03:55 AM

When I first heard one of Normas recordings I put it back on the self and got something a little safer. Then through a friend I started to Listen to Norma's work and I am now well and truely hooked, the live performances I have heard have only increased my regard for her.

A couple of months ago I took my Ex-wife to see Norma and Martin in Lincoln, not as a subtle form of revenge -torture but because of the real joy it gives me, surpprise surprise, the Ex was completely entranced and enjoyed having a short chat with Norma during the interval. I look forward to seeing and hearing her again and again.

Sledge

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Bearheart
Date: 18 May 01 - 11:35 PM

Interesting thread. I don't think we have to choose between singers-- like you don't go to a wine store when you want health food. Different styles fill different needs. I really like both of these singer/styles and feel that they bring their own kind of power and integrity to what they do. I've learned great songs from the singing of both...

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Winick
Date: 18 May 01 - 10:17 PM

Hi Challis...I appreciate the reply. In response,

Norma doesn't "reign supreme." There are folks like Kate Rusby and Eliza Carthy and Nancy Kerr. Kate is the one making the biggest splash, and arguably had more limelight in the past two years than either Norma or June.

One could ask in pop, why do Sting, U2 and (yes) Elvis Costello still reign supreme? How come the Rolling Stones can still sell out huge tours? How come anyone cares about George Harrison's personal life anymore?

But as a more constructive answer, the fact is that traditional music has always been an all-ages music, moreso than pop. 80 year old farmers sing the same songs, often better than youngsters. But the tradition has been around for hundreds of years, and will survive in some form without doubt.

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 18 May 01 - 05:59 PM

Eaxactly, Kim, thank you.

Dear Winick,

I'm sorry people got upset by my opinion/comment! But, this is what I find sucks about Folk music - people get entrenched on this kind of issue. More to the point or my point is: where are the up-and-coming Normas or Jeans for that matter - Why does Norma still reign supreme 30/40 years on? It seems a pretty closed market at the top and that can't be good surely?

Love, Hille

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Kim C
Date: 18 May 01 - 05:47 PM

I think I know what you're saying, Challis. I made the mistake of saying to a co-worker that Elvis Costello can't sing. He jumped all down my throat. No, wait, I said, you don't understand. On a technical level, he sucks. On a stylistic level, he's great. I love him. I always have. I have nothing against him. Great singers don't have to be able to know how to sing.

I have never heard Norma solo so I can't comment.

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,winick
Date: 18 May 01 - 03:07 PM

What I don't get, Challis, is how you can say "Norma can't SING" is a purely objective statement. It is, of course, a purely _subjective_ statement (Did you just make a typo?)

If you don't like Norma's singing, you probably would like people such as Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, and Queen Caroline Hughes even less. But to Norma, Martin Carthy, and me (among others), these people are among the greatest singers ever. It's really just a matter of taste. So while I don't get upset, I figure you don't hear what I hear in Norma's singing, and I don't hear what you hear in June Tabor's.

By the way, I think one reason people might get upset is that you don't say "I don't like Norma's singing," you say "Norma Can't Sing" as though you were the arbiter of who can sing and who can't. Kind of relegates the rest of us to the position of dummies who haven't seen through Norma's trickery. Well, we ain't.

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 May 01 - 04:14 AM

Isn't that what I was trying to say??

LTS

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:43 PM

Quite apart from anything else, Norma is a singer from a traditional as well as revival background, and she sings in the old style; there is stylistic influence from her Irish-born maternal grandmother as well as from traditional English -particularly Yorkshire- idioms.  June is a "trained" revival singer with, so far as I know, no traditional background, which might account for her sometimes rather exaggerated stylistic quirks and very un-traditional, histrionic delivery.  It's powerful and impressive, of course, and she can hold a note longer and more accurately than Norma can, but Norma's approach is the real thing, where June's is in a sense an imaginative and over-romanticised reconstruction; highly-polished and often beautiful, but, in the end, Art music rather than Folk music.  For that reason if for no other, to compare the two as if they were actually doing the same thing is a bit of a dead end from the point of view of analysis.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 May 01 - 12:39 PM

You can't compare an apple with an orange because they're not the same kind of fruit. Neither can you compare Norma with June, because they're not the same kind of singers. They are both great in their own way - I've heard the records and seen them live (several times)

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 May 01 - 02:15 PM

Oh, I do think she's a lovely lady n'all and undoubtedly she has made an unrivalled contribution to folk - this is purely a "analytical" opinion of her voice. I do listen to Norma's voice though because it is unavoidable when listening to music for repertoire/pleasure/research, whatever...I think she has a great "voice" - but that's not the same as being able "sing" in the conventional sense of the word.

E.g. Annie Lennox is a technically a superb singer - i.e., pitch, timing, breathing, notes, etc., but some people I know hate her voice and so say she can't sing.

Why do people get so upset about this? It's purely an objective comment.

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 May 01 - 12:12 PM

Well I have to stick up for Norma, 'cos she's from Hull too. Not that Norma can't stick up for herself.

My introduction to traditional folk music was at the folk club that the Watersons started (Folk Union One at the Bluebell), although at that time the Watersons had stopped performing as a group. Norma was in the West Indies. Mike and Lal performed regularly, though.

So if you don't like Norma's voice, don't listen to it. But recognise that you may be in a minority, and also recognise what Norma has done for our music, and what a smashing person she is.

I have to confess that I always preferred Lal's voice to Norma's, but together they made a great sound.

Les

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 May 01 - 12:02 PM

June 1, Charles Dickens Pub, Heene Road Worthing, Sussex, UK 7.30pm - HAJ! (3 part unaccompanied) hosts Open Mic and Special Guest - Pip Walter from the Piners.

See you there, Norma!!!

:)

Cheers, Hille PS I love Marmite best too.......

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: English Jon
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:04 AM

Challis, be sure to tell Norma when you've got a gig on, eh?

EJ

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Kernow John
Date: 09 May 01 - 05:25 PM

Sorry Challis
Take the aid back for testing *GRIN* Saw Norma live last week with Martin Carthy she sang beautifully and the feeling in the songs was real not manufactured for a recording. Can't say the same about June although I like her records.
KJ

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 09 May 01 - 03:20 PM

I've seen all of 'em live, most recently June at the Komedia Brighton and she was mesmerising - and came out to talk to audience afterwards. But I kow what you mean about the regality (she does run her own acclaimed restaurant) - still, she's come a long away (Guildford Library) from when a friend of mine booked her for a fiver.

Norma, sadly saw both her and Eliza (she's alright - well quite good actually) live and it is an experience I never hope to repeat....

Still, there's nothing like being controversial - is there? And at least this is a music thread :)

Hille

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 09 May 01 - 02:33 PM

Have sen them both love and I would say that June makes better records but Norma and Eliza live are great......

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 May 01 - 02:00 PM

Having had to stage both of them, give me Norma any day.. she went out of her way to make it a pleasant occasion, and was appologetic about asking for a simple table.... June on the other hand, was as bolshie and demanding as all get out, and I would rather book Genghis Khan and the rampaging Mongol hordes, than have to deal with her ridiculous requirements - she had a list of foods that she would eat, and they had to be prepared in a particular way.... Norma just needed a corkscrew, which Martin usually carries anyway! Norma's sound check was about 15 mins, June's went on longer than the bloody concert!

If you compare me with Lucia Popp, then I can't sing. BUT if you do it the other way, she can't sing. People have different styles and swapping or comparing them is difficult. June's style is perfectionist and very demanding, it's a recording style. Norma is very much a club singer, of which we've all known a few who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, but is an undemanding, natural sound, that can be translated to almost any environment.

LTS

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: English Jon
Date: 09 May 01 - 05:17 AM

Who's June Tabor?

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:59 PM

Challis,
You are absolutely out of your mind!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 08 May 01 - 07:21 PM

Challis, you'll hate me for this - are you claiming that June Tabor can SING? :-)

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 May 01 - 06:58 PM

Wonderfully talented? How HAS this woman got away with it for so long? Sorry, (you're all gonna hate me) but in my opinion Norma CANNOT sing. Interpret songs maybe - but that is NOT the same as singing ability hear June Tabor for that - awesome!)

I have listened very intently to a lot of Waterson stuff trying to fathom/analyse WHY she merits all these plaudits! I sat through the dreariest concert on Earth by Waterson/Carthy (at Bedales School) to see if LIVE made a difference - but, she cannot "sing"!

Yours unrepentantly, Challis

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Hollowfox
Date: 08 May 01 - 06:14 PM

Also at Old Songs, next month.

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: KathWestra
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:06 AM

DC 'Catters Heads Up!!! Just learned that Norma (along with husband Martin Carthy and daughter Eliza Carthy) will be giving a FREE concert TONIGHT, Tuesday, May 8, at the Kennedy Center's Milennium Stage from 6:00 to 7:00 p.m. Eliza will be doing a solo gig at the same time and location tomorrow night, May 9. Am moving heaven and earth to try to be at both.

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 01 - 07:50 AM

You can find the latest from the official Waterson:Carthy newsletter by clicking here

Subject: Norma Waterson
From: wolters
Date: 08 May 01 - 03:59 AM

Does anyone know what the wonderfully talented English folk singer Norma Waterson is up to at the moment? I'm waiting in anticipation for her fourth solo studio album, anyone know when this is due?