'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM

Ralphie, I have no connection whatsoever to Bulmer or Celtic Music. I know you really want to believe I do however, because that makes it easy for you to justify in your mind the vengeful tactics you've been using in a sad attempt to deflect criticism for the ways the Jones camp has handled this. All I have to say to that Ralphie is, its your karma, and I'm glad it ain't mine.

As to the moral rights issue, I realize it exists. But as a quick trip to the website provided by Andy shows, it isn't used in these sorts of economic disputes over who owns rights and masters. The moral rights case law is used when someone takes the song or play or book of another, changes it in some substantial way (ie something slanderous or disrespectful, for example) that could damage the reputation of the artist who originally created the product.

It would be extremely difficult to prove Nic's case, or any others, was one of moral rights, rather than economic rights. Again, as I've said over and over, I don't think the Jones camp is 100% right and Bulmer 100% wrong, or vice versa. Nothing is ever that simple.

And Pat, I wish you the very best of luck with your case.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 12:05 PM

Another clause in the moral rights issue is that certain "integrity rights" also exist when an artists work is being derogated. I imagine that there is little doubt that an artists work is being derogated when it is home crafter (almost) on a CDR. Add a crap prited inlay slip and a stick on label suggest to me that it is indeed an inferior piece. Also perhaps the misleading ident of the CDR's intimating (deceiving??) one into thinking its an "original" again suggests to me that the artists moral and integrity rights have very much been infringed. Making further enquiries about Mr Bulmer's new solicitor reveals that he is a consultant with Collyer Bristow in London and that he is the man who assists new artists and musicians, through the BBC, with sage advice on how to avoid the traps used by Celtic Music/Records/Distribution. As I said, its a funny old World.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM

Non-legal minded people "imagining there is little doubt" Andy, isn't exactly the same thing to a solicitor taking on a case they don't think they can win. I believe these circumstances are ones that concern, in a legal sense, economic rights, not moral rights. But as I said, I'm no legal expert, and I'm guessing your aren't either. Which is why no one is paying us for legal opinions, eh? ;-)

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 03:58 AM

To GUEST I must reply that in "these circumstances" economic AND moral rights are infringed. The notion of moral rights is now incorporated in law within the Copyright Acts and was presumably not just thrown in to the Act as an afterthought. Are you inferring that Celtic Music issuing poorly packaged, poorly labelled CDR's and pasing them off effectively as original recordings does not infringe moral and integrity rights - leaving aside the other matter of economic "economising" by that company? I am not a lawyer and I dont know an lawyers closely enough to have anything ther than personal views. You sound as if you do ..... if you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:05 AM

Isn't it time for part 4?

PS It is not 'old computers' which are the cause of the problem, it is the slow dial-up lines. Even the very oldest 486 can cope with the transmission speed (but maybe not under the burden of the Windows operating system!)

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Guest. John.
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 06:15 AM

The laws regarding intellectual and moral rights are to protect the owner of copywright. In the case of Mr Bulmers re'issues it would appear that he owns the copywrights in question. MCPS/PRS and other collection agencies do not intervene in disputes between members and it is therefore up to the artist or artists concerned to regain the rights to their work through the courts. If any of the artists have recording contracts with Celtic Music and the terms of these contracts have not been honoured then they have a case in law under breach of contract. I have no idea of the position with regard to music catalogues aquired from other labels.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 03:10 PM

I should say that we aren't really dealing with crap packaging, paste-on labels and such. Sellers as well as buyers could well mistake these CDRs for real CDs, because they're pretty well packaged, which is the point. It's not super, top-of-the-line packaging, but then neither were the orignal LPs. I don't think the "derogation" argument would work on those grounds.

But I do think that what our GUEST is suggesting, ie that no solicitor would take the case because they can't win it, is wrong. (Well, it's obviously wrong because Pat Cooksey's solicitor has taken the case!) Many solicitors would advise against a suit because in the event that you win, there is a danger that Bulmer will dissolve the old company or transfer the assets in question to a new one. He has done so before, which accounts for the Celtic Music, CM distribution, Leader, Trailer, and other labels he's released his CDs on.

What he is doing as regards non-payment of royalties is clearly illegal, AND immoral, but it remains to be seen how enforceable the laws are given the loopholes in the system. I hope Pat Cooksey's case shows that such a case CAN be won, and can be enforced.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

Actually Nerd, I wasn't suggesting that no solicitor would take the case because they can't win it. Solicitors take on cases they KNOW they can't win all the time, if they want to earn a living at law. Solicitors fees are not based upon whether they win or not, unless they take on the case for a % of the settlement or judgment.

Again, none of us are solicitors or entertainment lawyers are we? So to make absolutist statements about what each of us personally *believes* (as opposed to knows) is right or winnable, seems a bit silly to me. All we are discussing is pure conjecture. And I do believe if there were a really solid legal case to be put forward against Bulmer, someone certainly would have done it by now. Like it or not, the law may well be more on Bulmer's side than the artists.

I don't like that fact, but unless Pat is able to come up with a substantial judgment or settlement, I think we should all just accept things as they are, and move on. Nobody is holding a gun to artists' heads and making them sign contracts with Bulmer, right?

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 05:24 PM

I think most of us would like the music to be made available and packaged to proper professional standards! Both in the recording and in the royalties.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: RolyH
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 05:59 PM

pavane

Like it!Direct and to the point.Basically there is a lot of good music that is unavailable to the listening public in a decent (and legal?) format, if at all.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,guest. John.
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM

Mr Bulmer may be all the things people say of him but a fool he is not. He will be fully aware of the legal position regarding his re'issues and would not put his head in a noose unless he was certain of his position under copywright law. Moral or intellectual rights do not concern him, and it is therefore up to the artists concerned to challenge him in the courts if they believe they have a case.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 04:42 AM

We have heard from many people who have dealt with CM and Bulmer etc - not often with fond memories either. Of course Bulmer puts his head in the noose when trading near to the edge of decency etc but in the past he has always had his partner Sharpley to fire off the poisonous and threatening letters. I am sure that he is probably still relying on Sharpley to do that even though he no longer can call himself "solicitor". When hit by the sort of vitriol that Sharpley can write (AND I HAVE SEEN SUCH A LETTER) it is quite possible to understand why people take cover. In the case of the Sharpley designed CM Records contract, I wonder if the artist is recommended to seek independednt legal advice? I understand that this was rarely if ever the case. It is very likely (perhaps others may agree) that at least one of the unnamed GUEST correspondants is Bulmer and or Sharpley and if so lads, why not come clean and let us see a CM contract?

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 06:57 AM

I think this business of CM's contracts is not relevant to most of the works, which were recorded under contracts with other companies.

As for obtaining any settlement, as discussed above, even if you can afford the expense and win the case, you will very likely be unable to collect your winnings. 'Phoenix' companies are very often used, so much so that the Government has created legislation which can be used to remove the protection of the limited company, and make Directors personally liable for debts - but this is unlikely to help in this case.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:25 PM

Hi Chaps.
I think it is about time that I bowed out of this discussion. My personal spat with our well regarded GUEST has muddied the waters somewhat.
I'll continue to read everything that is posted on this thread, and please keep it alive.
I still contend that the situation regarding CM and the artists (and NO. "Mrs GUEST", I don't just mean NJ...) is a very sad situation, and I'm very glad that a lot of people have realised this fact.
Having seen the list of artists affected by Mr B's involvement in the English Folk Scene....makes me very angry...But....there you go.
To Pat Cooksey.....Good luck mate...to Andy Iom., Pavane, Noreen,Nerd etc, and all the other people who feel strongly..Keep going. I will too, but in another way. Not in this forum.
One way or another, Mr Bulmer will have to give in eventually.

Thanks to you all for your contributions.
All the best Ralphie
PS. Oh, and thanks to our un-named GUEST for some interesting thoughts, and for not answering the majority of questions posed...It was fun.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:53 PM

Andy, you are giving what looks like it could be contradictory information here. Would you mind clarifying it for me?

First you said that Bulmer had obtained new counsel (8 Aug 12:05):

"Making further enquiries about Mr Bulmer's new solicitor reveals that he is a consultant with Collyer Bristow in London and that he is the man who assists new artists and musicians, through the BBC, with sage advice on how to avoid the traps used by Celtic Music/Records/Distribution."

But later you said (10 Aug 4:42):

"...in the past he has always had his partner Sharpley to fire off the poisonous and threatening letters. I am sure that he is probably still relying on Sharpley to do that even though he no longer can call himself "solicitor"."

Could you clarify this information for us? Do you have first hand information as to who the solicitors are for Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer? It would probably be helpful to someone like Pat, who is trying to compile information about it for their own case.

As to the contract issue, I agree with Guest John. There is one set of artists who who signed contracts with Celtic Music directly. They have a different set of legal issues with Bulmer than do the artists who originally signed contracts with the record labels which were subsequently bought up by Bulmer when those labels went out of business.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, I-O-M
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 04:19 AM

I wonder if Guest who queried my postings is a CM'er? As I said in an earlier posting, I have a pal who has dealt with Bulmer and Sharpley (and not just in relation to their record/publishing business)and he is adamant that whilst another solicitor is appointed he is virtually a "front". Most of us suspect that Mr B would be terminally maudlin if he has to use his own cash to fund anything - least alone an expensive London lawyer. Logic suggests also that Mr S calls the shots and instructs the lawyer, Mr Kanaar, so the nasty regime continues virtually seamlessly. Pat may have had similar dealings but as his case is probably sub judice he may not wish to comment. I am sure he is aware. Sorry also to see Ralphie leave the forum. Come back soon. I too will not be writing further but will watch with immense interest how the legal case brought by Pat proceeds. Good luck to everyone who has an interest in bringing this seedy company to its knees after all it has done to damage folk music and some of its most important artistes.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 05:44 AM

I hope that someone will still keep us up to date with progress. I have no other information available than is found in these threads.

(PS : To clarify - I do not personally know ANY of the other thread contributors, nor am I connected in any way with Nic or any of the other artists, so I have no source of 'inside' information)

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM

I checked out Mr Kanaar and you might like to see the extract on him from the web; 31 May 2001 - Kanaar joins forces with Collyer-Bristow

Renowned music and entertainment lawyer Nick Kanaar and his practice, Kanaar & Co, are to join forces on 1 June 2001 with the entertainment team at Holborn firm Collyer-Bristow, led by partner Howard Ricklow. The appointment of Kanaar, and assistant Neil Parkes, brings the Collyer-Bristow team to five lawyers representing a rapidly expanding client list featuring well known names from Status Quo to dance music act Chicane. Kanaar is of course a well-known figure in the industry, and has been active on both contentious and non-contentious issues for many years.

"I am delighted to be able to draw on the skills of my colleagues at Collyer-Bristow who are experts in particular areas of law that will be invaluable to many of my clients." says Kanaar of his decision to join Collyer-Bristow. "I have always been driven by the concept of providing a 'cradle-to-grave' service for my clients and increasing regulation and specialisation means that this is becoming more difficult as a specialist practitioner. I can now call on legal experts in areas such as e-commerce, property, family issues and personal tax".

For further information contact:

Nick Kanaar, Collyer-Bristow, 020 7242 7363

Now it seems he is working for Bulmer! Still it should be a warning to any musicians who might be considering taking legal advice to look elsewhere. I really do believe that if a lawyer struts his stuff as "the artistes friend" he should be very careful of who he supps with. In view of the legal case being brought by Pat I wonder if the BBC are aware that their expert serves also "the other side"? As you say Andy (I.O.M.) it really is a funny old World.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM

I'm not sure that the BBC considers Celtic Music it's "enemy" in the sense that people posting to these threads consider Celtic Music theirs.

I have no insider information either pavane. Nor do I personally know any of the people who inhabit this forum as members. Just an observer with a healthy amount of skepticism about the villification of others in public forums.

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,John, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 02:42 AM

I too am sute that the BBC does not consider CM to be its enemy and I never suggested it either. The point that you have missed, guest, is that the BBC now employ Collyer Bristow to advise musicians how to avoid the "bad guys" of the music business. As this advice is offered by a solicitor )Mr Kanaar?)who has a crusade against bad practice it is hardly acceptable that he should also work for the likes of Dave Bulmer and his companies. Is there no morality in the legal business and is everything up for grabs if the price is right? As a musician who has learned the hard way over many years it now seems that the only way to learn about music biz rip-offs is to experience them. If the BBC offers in house advice it really should ensure that the solicitor it engages has clean hands. Essentially it's down to morals of which there are very few in the music business and those who feed off it. But I'm sure that the unnamed gust will take issue with that as well!

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: nickp
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM

Hmmm... 'morality in the legal business' ... now where was that thread about oxymorons? *Big Grin*

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM

Sort of like saying there is such a thing as "clean money".

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Dick Gaughan
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 09:21 PM

I am not a mudcat regular as I don't allow cookies on my machine but my attention has been drawn to the fact that my name has been bandied about in this thread so I stopped by to take a look. Most of the references to me have been posted by some anonymous troll and I don't enter into discussion with people who post hearsay to public forums but don't have the cojones to identify themselves.

Just to clarify.

I have never at any time been "involved" with CM Distribution in any capacity other than as an artist for whom they released two albums in the 1980s.

I was a partner in Redesdale Recording Studios, where the other partners were Geoff Heslop, Neil Sharpley and David Bulmer - this studio had no direct connection with CM other than the identity of two of the four partners. CM also bought two solo albums and one band album, "The Boys of the Lough", from Highway who had bought them from Leader.

I had been friends with Dave Bulmer for 20 years until 1995 when I made several discoveries which caused me to terminate all dealings with him. I have not spoken to or seen him or had contact of any kind with him since then.

As I said, due to the cookie requirement I'm not a Mudcat member but I have a high opinion of it and of many of the regulars here, which is why I'm posting this. I frequent the newsgroup uk.music.folk and so if anyone wishes me to read or respond to any discussion, they should post there (although I would advise that this topic has been flogged to death there).

In the meantime, the accuracy of any information posted about me should be either verified directly with me - I'm ridiculously easy to communicate with - or taken with a huge shovel of salt.

Especially that posted by nameless "guests".

Cheers Dick Gaughan

Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 09:33 PM

Dick, thanks for the clarification. I consider it the final word on the subject. I was hoping you would stop in.

Now........come to Michigan so's I can corner you and sing songs.

All the very best,

Mick Lane [e-mail]