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Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites

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GUEST 01 Sep 06 - 11:34 PM
Peter T. 21 Aug 06 - 09:59 PM
Joe Offer 21 Aug 06 - 08:50 PM
robomatic 21 Aug 06 - 07:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM
Ernest 11 Aug 06 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,The Vulgar Boatman 11 Aug 06 - 04:01 AM
Homeless 10 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM
GUEST 10 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM
Kaleea 10 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM
Homeless 10 Aug 06 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 10 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM
PoppaGator 09 Aug 06 - 10:24 PM
Artful Codger 09 Aug 06 - 07:04 PM
Big Mick 09 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 09 Aug 06 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 09 Aug 06 - 05:03 PM
Kaleea 09 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM
Artful Codger 09 Aug 06 - 04:12 PM
Ernest 09 Aug 06 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 09 Aug 06 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 09 Aug 06 - 11:12 AM
The Fooles Troupe 09 Aug 06 - 07:18 AM
Peter T. 09 Aug 06 - 07:04 AM
Ernest 09 Aug 06 - 04:05 AM
Peter T. 08 Aug 06 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Guest 08 Aug 06 - 10:40 AM
GUEST 08 Aug 06 - 10:34 AM
number 6 08 Aug 06 - 08:57 AM
Grab 08 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM
Nick 08 Aug 06 - 08:31 AM
Richard Bridge 08 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM
Johnhenry'shammer 08 Aug 06 - 04:34 AM
GUEST, The Banjoist 07 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 Aug 06 - 06:29 PM
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number 6 07 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM
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number 6 07 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM
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foggers 07 Aug 06 - 12:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:34 PM

It won't be long until it is illegal to let anyone listen to
a CD that you purchased, nor will you be allowed to sing along
with the artist[s] unless you pay an additional fee.

for instance, at a back yard party with more than 3 people
in attendance, you will be required to pay a fee.

I am REALLY HOPING FOR THE DAY that it will be A CRIME to play
music LOUD ENOUGH for others nearby to hear, ESPECIALLY the
current so-called COUNTRY MUSIC AND RAP...BRING IT ON!


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:59 PM

These people are the same idiots who said that video would kill the movie industry. They have never had the slightest interest in producing good products -- you can go forever without finding decent guitar tabs published by the industry. It is short sighted stupidity.   If these people produced such things, they would have a leg to stand on.

Let us take the number one example in the world. The Beatles. Unless you buy the 100 dollar complete transcriptions you cannot buy a decent TAB of the Beatles. You cannot CANNOT work out how they played what they played from the sheet music they put out. It is pianized crap reproduced and repackaged. I could go on like this all day and name the top 100 groups in the world and it would be all the same. (The honourable exceptions like Joni Mitchell are honorable exceptions!)

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:50 PM

I think that New York Times article is worth posting in full.
-Joe Offer-
August 21, 2006
E-Commerce Report

Now the Music Industry Wants Guitarists to Stop Sharing

The Internet put the music industry and many of its listeners at odds thanks to the popularity of services like Napster and Grokster. Now the industry is squaring off against a surprising new opponent: musicians.

In the last few months, trade groups representing music publishers have used the threat of copyright lawsuits to shut down guitar tablature sites, where users exchange tips on how to play songs like "Knockin' on Heaven's Door," "Highway to Hell" and thousands of others.

The battle shares many similarities with the war between Napster and the music recording industry, but this time it involves free sites like Olga.net, GuitarTabs.com and MyGuitarTabs.com and even discussion boards on the Google Groups service like alt.guitar.tab and rec.music.makers.guitar.tablature, where amateur musicians trade "tabs" — music notation especially for guitar — for songs they have figured out or have copied from music books.

On the other side are music publishers like Sony/ATV, which holds the rights to the songs of John Mayer, and EMI, which publishes Christina Aguilera's music.

"People can get it for free on the Internet, and it's hurting the songwriters," said Lauren Keiser, who is president of the Music Publishers' Association and chief executive of Carl Fischer, a music publisher in New York.

So far, the Music Publishers' Association and the National Music Publishers' Association have shut down several Web sites, or have pressured them to remove all of their tabs, but users have quickly migrated to other sites. According to comScore Media Metrix, an Internet statistics service, Ultimate-Guitar.com had 1.4 million visitors in July, twice the number from a year earlier.

The publishers, who share royalties with composers each time customers buy sheet music or books of guitar tablature, maintain that tablature postings, even inaccurate ones, are protected by copyright laws because the postings represent "derivative works" related to the original compositions, to use the industry jargon.

The publishers told the sites that if they did not remove the tablatures, they could face legal action or their Internet service providers would be pressured to shut down their sites. All of the sites have taken down their tabs voluntarily, but grudgingly.

The tablature sites argue that they are merely conduits for an online discussion about guitar techniques, and that their services help the industry.

"The publishers can't dispute the fact that the popularity of playing guitar has exploded because of sites like mine," said Robert Balch, the publisher of Guitar Tab Universe (guitartabs.cc), in Los Angeles. "And any person that buys a guitar book during their lifetime, that money goes to the publishers."

Mr. Balch, who took down guitar tabs from his site in late July at the behest of the music publishers, added that, "I'd think the music publishers would be happy to have sites that get people interested in becoming one of their customers."

Cathal Woods, who manages Olga.net, one of the pioneer free tablature sites, said he had run the site for 14 years with the help of a systems administrator, "and we've never taken a penny." Mr. Woods, who teaches philosophy at Virginia Wesleyan College in Norfolk, said Olga.net had earned an undisclosed amount of money by posting ads on Google's behalf, but he said that money had paid for bandwidth and a legal defense fund.

Anthony DeGidio, a lawyer for Olga.net, said he was still formulating a legal strategy, while also helping decide whether the site could pay licensing fees "in the event that that's required." For now, though, the site remains unavailable to users.

Because the music tablature sites are privately held, they do not disclose sales figures, and because industry analysts generally do not closely follow tablature sites, it is unclear how much revenue they generate. But with the Internet advertising market surging, almost any Web site with significant traffic can generate revenue.

Google also dabbles in tablature through its Google Groups discussion board service, in which guitar players trade tabs they have figured out by listening to the songs, or by copying tabs found elsewhere. A Google spokesman, Steve Langdon, said Google would take down music tablature from its Groups service if publishers claimed the materials violated copyright agreements and if Google determined that infringement was likely. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, Web hosts may review, case by case, a publisher's claims regarding instances of copyright infringement.

To hear music publishers tell it, though, the tablature sites are getting away with mass theft. Mr. Keiser, of the Music Publishers' Association, said that before these sites started operating in the early '90s, the most popular printed tablatures typically sold 25,000 copies in a year. Now the most popular sell 5,000 copies at most.

But Mike Happoldt, who was a member of the '90's band Sublime and whose music is sold in sheet music books, said he sympathized with the tablature sites.

"I think this is greed on the publishers' parts," said Mr. Happoldt, who played guitar on Sublime's hit "What I Got."

"I guess in a way I might be losing money from these sites, but as a musician I look at it more as a service," said Mr. Happoldt, who now owns an independent record company, Skunk Records. "And really, those books just don't sell that much for most people."

Assuming a tablature site musters the legal resources to challenge the publishers in court, some legal scholars say they believe publishers may have difficulty arguing their complaints successfully. Jonathan Zittrain, the professor of Internet governance and regulation at Oxford University, said "it isn't at all clear" that the publishers' claim would succeed because no court doctrine has been written on guitar tablature.

Mr. Zittrain said the tablature sites could well have a free speech defense. But because the Supreme Court, in a 2003 case involving the extension of copyright terms, declined to determine when overenforcement or interpretation of copyright might raise a free speech problem, the success of that argument was questionable. "It's possible, though, that this is one reason why guitar tabs generated by people would be found to fit fair use," Mr. Zittrain said, "or would be found not to be a derivative work to begin with."

Doug Osborn, an executive vice president with Ultimate-Guitar.com said his site violated no laws because its headquarters were in Russia, and the site's practices complied with Russian laws.

Jacqueline C. Charlesworth, senior vice president and general counsel of the National Music Publishers' Association, would not comment on the legality of specific sites, including Ultimate-Guitar, but she said she had seen no international licensing agreements that might make free United States distribution of guitar tablature legal.

Online discussion boards have been thick with comments from guitar tablature fans, looking for sites that are still operating and lamenting the fate of sites they frequented. One user of the guitarnoise.com forums, who calls himself "the dali lima," said he had no doubt that the music publishers would win the battle.

"Hopefully we will get to a place where the sheet music/tab will be available online just like music — $0.99 a song. The ironic thing might be that a service like that — with fully licensed music/tab offered at a low per song rate — might actually benefit guitar players by providing the correct music/tab and not the garbage that we currently sift through."

A small handful of sheet music sites now sell guitar tablature. Mr. Keiser, of the Music Publishers' Association, estimated that, including overhead costs, tablature could cost about $800 per song to produce, license and format for downloading.

Musicnotes, an online sheet music business based in Madison, Wis., is considering a deeper push into guitar tablature, said Tim Reiland, the company's chairman and chief financial officer. The site has a limited array of tablature available now for about $5 a song, and it also offers tablature as part of $10 downloadable guitar lessons.

But Mr. Reiland said that with the music publishers "dealing with the free sites," and a stronger ad market, his business might be able to lower the cost of its guitar tabs.

"Maybe we could sell some of the riffs to Jimmy Page's solo in 'Stairway to Heaven' for a buck, since that's really what the kids want to learn anyway," Mr. Reiland said.

Low prices are only part of the battle, though, Mr. Reiland said. The free tablature sites often host vibrant communities of musicians, who rate each other's tablature and trade ideas and commentary, and Musicnotes would have to find a way to replicate that environment on its site. Furthermore, these communities often create tablature for songs that have little or no commercial value, he said.

"Less than 25 percent of the music out there ends up in sheet music because sometimes it just doesn't pay to do it," Mr. Reiland said. "So the fact that someone comes up with a transcription themselves just because they love that song and want to share it with people, there's some value to that."

"I don't have an answer for that," Mr. Reiland added. "But I think the industry needs to play around with it, because it could be a nice source of revenue for songwriters, and for the community it could be a really good thing."


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Subject: Tech: Table That Tablature!
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:48 PM

It's Bad Enough that New York swept Boston today at Fenway, but comes news now that sharing tablature over the internet is being challenged by the industry:
Table That Tablature
    Moved from another thread on the same subject.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM

I'm no real musician so my two penn'urth probably isn't even worth that!

The way I see it though is that he tab sites can only show the tab in two ways. The original way - Ie as the composer intended. And the interpreted way - Ie the way someone else believes it should be done.

If it is the former it is very clear cut. Either the composer themself has posted it in which case there is no problem or someone has copied it from a book, in which case copyright has been breeched in any number of ways. These must be removed or the cost must be paid.

If it is the latter it is a little more complex but not too much. Whoever has interpreted it owns the 'arrangement'. However they cannot perform even their own arrangement of a copyrighted item without permission from the owner. Or without paying. Once they have made that payment or gained that permission they should be able to share that arrangement with whosoever they want. Whether the owner of the original wanst a one off payment or a share of subsequent profits is up to them but I know what I would go for:-)

Of course there is another way of looking at it. Perhaps people posting tab, music, lyrics or whatever realy are fighting against the unjust laws which allow the publishing companies to do what has been mentioned before. Charge you for 20 songs when all you want is one. Perhaps if the publishing companies allowed people to download music, tab and lyrics on a per song basis there would be no need for people break the law? Maybe there would then be a true reflection of what was popular and what wasn't?

I am not saying this is the answer. I don't have the full answer. Maybe it is part of it though.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Ernest
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:38 AM

Homeless,
you certainly have a point there. Artists should have their rights protected.

Still I think too many restrictions aren`t doing them any good. As far as I know composers get money when their works are publically reproduced by others as well and there are organisations ensuring that these fees are collected from pubs, bars, etc.
This won`t work as easily when you are prohibiting people from learning songs. Every "cover" of a song is advertisement for the original IMHO.

Also it won`t help selling books. Since most of the tabs on the net aren`t very accurate somebody who is interested in the real thing will still have to get the book. Those who are content with chords won`t buy it because they don?t need it.
And many people won`t spend too much money on them because they have other expenses as well. When I was a kid I had a limited budget for records - if there wouldn`t have been tapes I wouldn`t have bought more records - I would have heard the same records more often.

And what about those of us who don`t perform: if we play it at home or among friends it won`t hurt the artist (at sessions it would be the publicians duty as i understand).

Best
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:01 AM

I may be missing the point here, but...why are we going to these tab sites? If it's to examine, study, learn from the techniques of established performers, then I believe the "fair dealing" principal of copyright says that's OK. If it's to reproduce the performance in all its detail, then its a breach of copyright, and if we're so damned in love with the music tradition, why do we want to reproduce someone else's performance? I get heartily sick of putting the effort into arranging and rehearsing, only to be asked "didn't so & so record that?" Well maybe he did - and your point is...?
Sometimes I wonder if we are going down the path of every other field of instant expertise - get the magazine and become a (select topic)wizard. Go to a session and spot how many guitarists have learned from the same video. It's enough to make you take up the bouzouki. What about a bit of originality?
Chris N


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Homeless
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

Guest, Copyright isn't intended to keep people from copying songs, it is intended to give the artist the exclusive right to copy. If the artist decides to assign other people that right, it is their decision. If you tell people to copy, you are assigning them the right. That, in a nutshell, is what copyright is about.
While you may have never registered your copyright, by law any work is copyrighted the first time it is set down in tangible form.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

I've always felt anyone who wanted to should record my live shows any way possible. It was the songs I found that I wanted to get "out there" -- to make others aware of gems uncovered. I got 'em that way, and I was just giving them back. I was always glad to sell a record out of my trunk (at gigs), but if folks were low on cash, I always told them that if a friend had the record, copy it. I never did copyright any of the songs I wrote. My big payoff came when I heard others singing 'em!!!

Whatever. That's just me I guess. Laws aside, it just ain't worth sweatin' over!


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Kaleea
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM

would it be asking too much of the revenoors to allow the websites to remove all copyrighted materials in lieu of being shut down altogether?



"Revenoors?!! Ah hate revenoors!! Elie Mae, fetch m' jug n' m' shotgun, please!"


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Homeless
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 02:11 PM

I read threads like this and am stunned at some of the ideas presented. As musicians I would think that you'd have a better understanding of the purpose of copyright law. Do you not realize that copyright was created to protect the originator of an artistic work? The way to (financially) protect the artist is give him, or his assignees, exclusive rights to reproduce that work. The decision to allow others to duplicate (perform, record) a work is entirely up to the artist, or assignee.
Having umpteen dozen (lesser) reproductions of a work floating around will (in theory) make the original less valuable. Chief Chaos really nailed it when he wrote "There's nothing like hearing a totally ruined version of an old favorite."

One of the big mistakes I see here is the mindset that artistic works belong to the public. Legally, in the US, the composition belongs to the artist. The artist decides whether it is sold, or left to die. The theory of "if you can't buy it, it should be free" is ludicrus. I'd like to see you walk into a museum and lift any of the not-for-sale paintings off the wall. The composer has put their heart, sweat, and soul into this work, why do you think you deserve any piece of it? "I agree that if they won't make it readily available (at a reasonable price and simple legal agreement)then it should be free." Oooh, I would love if this were true. Since the price on either a Lexus or Beemer isn't reasonable, I've love to be driving one for free.

"Try your local used book store or library. They can't get you for scanning it in to your compooper." Wrong. Electronic copying, include scanning, is a violation of copyright law. If you open to the first page of the book you'll probably find a notice to that effect. Just because they probably wouldn't track you down doesn't mean they can't.

"these folks aren't making money from their interpretation" That doesn't matter one bit in terms of copyright. Because they are providing it, especially if it's free, it is (again, theoretically) taking potential profits away from the artist. The artist has exclusive right to copy his (her) work. Whether the third party violator is making money is irrelevant. For those of you who have released CDs, what would your opinion be of someone who bought one, made a thousand copies, then just gave them away to people who came to your concerts?

"I agree with musicians and writers being compensated for their work, but, just how long should they be paid? For almost any other job you get paid once. That's it." And musicians are only getting paid once - once for each copy of each CD sold, once for each performance. Granted they are playing the same thing repeatedly, but what job doesn't do that? Do you think a plumber does something totally new and unique each time he cleans out a sink? What about an assembly line worker? Aren't they getting paid over and over for doing one job? It's supply and demand. As long as a song is in demand, the artist should get paid.

"you're supposed to pay for it again?" Yes, you didn't buy the music. You didn't even buy the rights to the music. What you bought was a physical media with physical limitations. You were liscensed the music on it, to listen to for the duration that the media held out. (In fact, most of the CDs in my collection say "Liscensed by..." and "All Rights Reserved" right on the disk.) Can you name me another industry that replaces its goods at no cost twenty years after the original purchase? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any manufacturers other than Snap-On and Craftsman that have an unconditional lifetime guarantee.

Why do you complain about the cost of a music book? Would you expect to pay the same amount to buy a fish and to have someone teach you how to fish? This isn't just dots - this is someone's brainchild that they are basically giving away. So it costs $28. Big whoop. Once you learn the song, how many times are you gonna play it? Once? Ten times? Once a year for the next twenty years? If so it's only cost you $1.40 each time you play it. Play more often, it costs even less. If this song isn't worth the $28, why do you want to play it at all?

Copyright is not solely for musicians, but applies to all artists - auditory, visual, or otherwise. Granted when it was written it was not intended for huge corporations, but that's frequently who the rights have been assigned to. As with any general rule, it's not perfect, but for all the different mediums it has to apply to, it does a decent job of outlining the protections. And if you think about it, it was devised specifically to protect against people like many of those on this thread.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

And another thing,
I agree with musicians and writers being compensated for their work, but, just how long should they be paid? For almost any other job you get paid once. That's it.

These artists and the recording companies have records go gold, platinum, double platinum and ten to twenty years later after your original purchased recording deteriorates or is made obsolete by technology, you're supposed to pay for it again?

And then if you want the sheet music you have to search for it, and (if it's available)purchase a book for a one hit wonder that costs $28.00 instead of a decent price to download the one song you're interested in.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:24 PM

The sheet music sold by mainstream publishers is almost always completely useless if one wishes to learn a guitar arrangement. Therefore, regardless of any abstract idea about the artist's right to be compensated, the big-biz music corporations have to right to surpress distribution of tablature that conveys information not available elsewhere.

On the other hand, most of the so-called "tab" sites I've found on the internet do not provide tablature at all ~ just chords! And, as often as not, incorrect chords!

The good, useful tab sites are few and far between, and it's a shame to see them disappear due to threats of prosecution by the greedheads of the big music companies.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:04 PM

Er, local libraries these days have to focus on the most popular material, not that most worthy of preserving and archiving. And since most modern media (tapes and CDs) are so easily damaged and difficult to replace (things passing so quickly out of publishers' catalogs), most libraries have precious few materials available in the "folk" genre, beyond the most recent years - and even there. IMHO, libraries should be able to clone lendable copies from master copies, at no cost, so that "shelf life" no longer depends upon publishers' limited goals or one's economic resources - this already occurs, in a sense, with e-books. To ensure proper compensation, royalties could be paid by the governments, based upon numbers of downloads.

This raises one of the most pernicious problems of corporate domination over all media: people rarely seek out things they've never been exposed to, while corporations focus on what they EXCLUSIVELY control and can most easily generate momentary interest in (i.e. the newest rage). Corporations have little concern for preserving heritage, keeping authors' materials available after interest has peaked, or widening people's musical horizons. On the contrary, it is in their interest to promulgate a distaste for any artist or genre outside this narrow focus/sphere of control. They encourage a passive (consumerist) approach to music; a lack of musical talent among the populace works to their advantage, as they only need a relatively few number of performers (and a stranglehold on distribution) to supply the public's demand.

The current copyright periods are preposterous, as it is not the original authors and public who benefit, but rather greedy corporations and "estates" (leeching progeny.)


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM

You forgot Folk Legacy which has done more to promote our music and our artists than almost anyone.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 05:22 PM

Sorry about that it's a little late

Ernest you're damn right but the music industry is just that, an industry with no love or respect for worthwhile music. Believe me I've worked in it. Many people are in it for the money only, but please remember there are record labels whose owners are genuinely interested in the music which do us a great service by re-issuing old material and recording good new material. I'm thinking here of such labels as Yazoo, County, Rebel, Old Hat, Heritage, Yodel ay Hee etc and they deserve our support, even they have to pay musicians and recording costs and copyright fees. I am sure that if you really need tabs or words then your local library would have the necessary books. Personally I always find/found it easier to watch other musicians to see how it's done. You have lots of fine musicians over there and there seem to be endless camps and courses for various instruments.

Sorry if I'm wandering a little from the original posting but you really don't have to rely on a computer to play music.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 05:03 PM


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Kaleea
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM

The Shut Me Down Blues


They shut down all my tab sites,
My 'puter's now my nightlight,
How will I learn the pickin',
Without tabs I was printin'?
I got the Mewzeek Po-leess went an' dun shut me down blues!


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 04:12 PM

To what extent can one provide a chord-only type tab without violating copyright? Most songs are quite generic in their basic harmonic structure and timing, so if details that truly define the work as a unique composition (melody, lyrics or idiosyncracies of the accompaniment) are not provided, would it still qualify as violation of copyright?


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 01:50 PM

Right hootenanny - the music will survive it.

It is just so convenient to google&print instead of listening for hours or babbling the same time until someone writes it down for you...

Not everyone has the gift of being able to learn by hearing...

Best
Ernest

P.S.: I don`t think the music-industry will do itself a favour by doing this - everyone playing a song does an advertizement for the artist.
Suggestion: how about putting the written music in the cd-booklet?


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 12:26 PM

Do you guys ever wonder how this music survived without computers ?
Stop belly-acheing, log off and start woodshedding, listen to and watch some real people playing, listen to the albums, watch a few videos, You need to get out more.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 11:12 AM

Unless someone took the arrangements directly from the sheet music and transposed it to the web it is not a copyright infraction. I agree that Hal Leonard is probably losing out but the interpretation in his books are often wrong as well. I'd rather have an anonymous and free erroneous tab sheet than a $28.00 Hal Leonard erroneous tab sheet.

Another thing is that these folks aren't making money from their interpretation.

In a lot of ways this reflects the free trade of recordings (ala napster). I've lately become adept at finding and downloading freebies simply because I can't find published CDs at any music store.
And the ones I can find are NEW recordings of the original song (not the original arrangement though)by the original artist(s)(if they aren't dead their voices have changed and they've got replacement studio musician backing. There's nothing like hearing a totally ruined version of an old favorite.

I agree that if they won't make it readily available (at a reasonable price and simple legal agreement)then it should be free.

Here's a thought. Try your local used book store or library. They can't get you for scanning it in to your compooper.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:18 AM

"What there ought to be however (and isn't) in copyright law is a provision to the broad effect that unless a work is available to the public (preferably at a reasonable price but I can see that being contentious) copyright ought not to give rise to a right to injunctive relief."

Under Aussie Law, if a Publisher refused to import a publication within a reasonable time or arrange local publication, then 'grey simultaneous import' by independents became legal.

Dunno what the US FTA (F*** The Aussies!) did to that though.... but I notice that 'grey imports' of all sorts of other products - dishwashing liquid, canned food, etc are occurring at a large rate in the 'cheapie stores' like Crazy Clark, etc.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:04 AM

The Dylan site tabbed properly every change exhaustively, and all the different tunings Dylan used. Even more shockingly they did it for guitar!! As opposed to hiring some piano guy to work out a pseudo-version. What is to stop a publisher doing the same -- have they never heard of the internet?

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 04:05 AM

Maybe that`s because Dylan is changing his arrangements/interpretations of his songs often, Peter?

Best
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:39 PM

To quote from the best Bob Dylan site, which has been closed down by the author out of fear -- if the publishers did decent TABS, maybe people wouldn't be forced onto the Internet. For example, Bob Dylan. You cannot find out how Bob Dylan plays virtually any of the songs he does by buying the sheet music -- it is all put into standard tuning, and tells you nothng!!! -- there are a hundred Dylan books on the market from the publishers, and they are all CRAP.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:40 AM

http://www.allcoolmusic.com/legal.htm

Canada and The Netherlands rulings.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:34 AM

http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-998363.html

Federal Judge Rules: File swapping tools are LEGAL.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: number 6
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:57 AM

I use the following,when I do use them ...

www.chordie.com

www.cowboylyrics.com

sIx


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Grab
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM

JHH, it depends on what kind of "folk" you're after.

Most trad music exists in standard notation (or in forms such as ABC or MIDI which can be trivially converted to standard score with free or cheap tools), as it's been written down from the playing of fiddlers and others who usually use standard notation rather than tab. It's relatively simple to work out the fret positions from that. For working out the chords, some places show them, but in general you can just listen to the MIDI and play along until you've worked out chords that suit you. Chords for trad music are very much what you feel fits the tune. The simple three-chord stuff usually works, but you can be much more fancy if you want.

For other folk music - Tom Paxton, Whiskey in the Jar, Wild Rover and all that kind of stuff - you can go to any tab site and search. I use TabRobot.com myself to combine results from multiple sites.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Nick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:31 AM

You could of course be a little bit sneaky and go into the Wayback Machine here

If anyone hasn't ever come across it the Archive.org is an amazing resource.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM

It wouldn't matter so much if the dots you can get from the official music publishers gave the right chords, but they often don't. However, there is really no way round the fact that publishing the dots (or tab, or lyrics) is the core of the music publishers' business (and therefore what copyright is about) and without the sites we'd have to buy the dots or the tab from them.

What there ought to be however (and isn't) in copyright law is a provision to the broad effect that unless a work is available to the public (preferably at a reasonable price but I can see that being contentious) copyright ought not to give rise to a right to injunctive relief. If that were the case then the tab sites and users would be entitled to do what they do - on paying a reasonable royalty.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Johnhenry'shammer
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:34 AM

Just to restate my question since the two threads got joined, does anybody know of any good folk tab sites still up and running?


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST, The Banjoist
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

Here's a lyric site of Greatful Dead songs that lost most of it's lyrics back in Dec of '05, I think it was.


http://www.rukind.com/music/gdtunes/menu_gd.php


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:29 PM

If you are guaranteed tabs/lyrics that are correct, complete, it would be worth it for a nominal fee ... and yes, the composers would be compensated.

But shutting down sites such as Olga ... that is going a bit too far .. as previously mentioned most of these are just someone's interpetation and accuracy is much in question.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 05:00 PM

Being an optimist, I can see good coming out of this. The publishers are right in trying to protect the rights of copyright holders. People who write songs ought to be compensated, but I think the Harry Fox Agency and others who represent publishers, have overreacted by working to close down these sites.
Sooner or later, the publishers will find a way to make money by making lyrics and tab available to the public at a price the public is willing to pay. This will probably involve giving something to the public for free when it's not saleable.
Sooner or later, this will all filter out.

After all, most of these songs became part of our culture without the public having to pay directly to hear them - they were broadcast on commercial radio and television.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM

Amos ... No one here is 'chopping'up the most IMPORTANT communication lines of civilization here ... we are actually using this IMPORTANT communication line in conspiring to have a massive revolution (of which the western world has neve known) because of the capitalist intrusion into our FREEDOM of obtaining music tabs for FREE on the WWW. So, are you in or are you out Amos?

sIx


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:39 PM

I predict that history will one day record that the suppression of music by the industry was the turning point that eventually led to mass revolution in the West. Talk about chopping up the IMPORTANT communication lines of a civilization!


A


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

I certainly wouldn't pay for those sites ... a lot of tabs are not correct (just someone's interpetation) or some are even incomplete.

A result of capitalism finally discovering the web I guess.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sites
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:33 PM

Joe:

It is not guitar tab sites. Mandolin tab and lyric sites are also being threatened.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablature Sit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM

I dunno. I think this is a recent increase in activity against the Websites that survived earlier onslaughts.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablatu
From: Grab
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:06 PM

Old news - Harry Fox has been doing this for years now. They're the reason that the functioning OLGA sites are now in Russia and other similar countries.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablatu
From: foggers
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:52 PM

The capitalist ratbags! I don't see how they can do it really, there must be thousands of sites to try and police.

Still I imght just step up my searching and downlaoding of all me fave tunes....just in case...


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Subject: Music Industry Goes After Guitar Tablatu
From: Mark Ross
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

Thie caught my ear this AM. Capitalism rampant.

Mark Ross



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5622879


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Subject: RE: losing tab sites?
From: Johnhenry'shammer
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:09 AM

Are there still any good tab sites arround?
    Threads Combined. Messages below are from the newer thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: losing tab sites?
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:05 AM

Thanks Joe.

Some questions for songwriters, lyricists, and singers:

Do you object to having your song lyrics, music notation and tabs, etc. posted on the Internet?

Do you think it is stealing your livelihood?

I certainly would not want to take something for nothing and donate to websites I frequent and would do so for good wide-ranging lyrics and tab sites.

I frequented Rose, The Record Lady's site when it was functioning just to listen to music I wanted to purchase anyway to ensure that it was the song I wanted. Her site actually helped sell music, in my case. I have well over 250 CDs, a hundred or more tapes, and often purchase individual songs at $0.99 each through Rhapsody because I want good quality music and I am willing to pay for it. I also still have a collection of 45s and LPs and continue to purchase rare vinyl records. I have 8 of Joel Whitburn's music books and numerous other books on music I've purchased. I have many instructional videos on fiddle, guitar, and harmonica.

This world is more and more becoming pay-as-you-go and I don't see the trend changing. I don't disagree with paying for something, but I see the current free lyrics, tab, and music sites dwindling to a few closed paid membership-only monopolized entities without the variety that free "done as a labor of love" sites offer. That would be a great loss to all who love music.


Cruiser


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Subject: RE: losing tab sites?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:59 PM

Things don't look good at OLGA.net, either.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: losing tab sites?
From: Cruiser
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:52 PM

Of course I meant bibliophile above. Too bad this forum does not have an Edit function; something I would likely often need to use.
    ...but there are people who are willing to fix your typos for you. All ya gotta do is ask.
    It's fixed.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: losing tab sites?
From: GUEST,The Banjoist
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:43 PM

Yes, there's a lot of sites like this one that may be hurt by this. Mudcat has a ton of tunes that are not PD.


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Subject: RE: losing tab sites?
From: Cruiser
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:31 PM

Another one of the unfortunate and many copyright/fair use disputes that will only continue grow. I can't see any fair resolution to this problem. Lyrics sites are facing the same disputes.

I am a bibliophile but don't necessarily want to purchase books of tabs, sheet music, or lyrics.


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Subject: losing tab sites?
From: GUEST, The Banjoist
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

It appears that we may be loosing some tab sites. Jack Baker over at Fretted Instruments has had to remove all his Earl Scruggs tab, "MySongBook" is wiped out and Lee Marcus's Bluegrass Tabs is gone. You can read about it at Guitar Zone.

Because Jack had to remove his Earl Scruggs tab I'm guessing it's Hal Leonard behind this because they are the ones publishing Ear's new book. I did say I'm just guessing.


http://www.guitartabs.cc/


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