Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Dave Arthur
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:38 PM

Just another thought that I meant to put in the last posting. The idea that one should or should not sing songs in accents other than one's own, or songs from one's own culture would rule out a large percentage of the middle and upper classes, or anyone that uses 'Received Pronuncation' - which is why so many '70s and '80s singers of English rural songs adopted a folky Mummerset accent to cover up their Grammar school or university tones.
    As for American songs we tend to forget, or p'raps haven't even thought about, the fact that what we think of as an American accent is a relatively recent phenomenon. In the gunslinging, trail-riding, river-boating days of the 19th century many people spoke with British or other European accents. There were plenty of first or second generation gunfighters and Marshalls with Lancashire accents, cowboys with Scottish and Cockney accents, Welsh miners, storytellers and farmers on Beech Mountain, North Carolina, speaking an even earlier English, and Irish accents everywhere especially in the army and the police. In the American Civil War there were English adventurers riding with the Confederate cavalry and Irish infantrymen, straight off the ships fighting, singing, and dying for the North. From the 1840s through to the end of the century Nigger Minstrel Shows such as the Christy Minstrels toured the length and breadth of Britain leaving their blackface songs (often sung to Irish tunes) in villages across the country. Norfolk's Sam Larner sang the minstrel song and dance 'Old Bob Ridley' and Alfred Williams collected minstrel songs in Oxfordshire and Wiltshire. Collections of Minstrel songs were published in London from the midde of the 19th century. Some of the finest recordings of early 20th century Irish music were made in America, There are field recordings from California of what most would think of as a southern English dance tune repertoire and the same in Australia. In the 1930s traditional melodeon, concertina and fiddle players, from Australia or America could have sat down in a Suffolk or a Devon pub and played the same sets of tunes, in a very similar style.
The only difference with all of the above and the blinkered folk revival world is that nobody told any of those people that they shouldn't be doing what they were doing, many of them would have sung songs without any inhibitions or looking over their shoulders for the folk police. I've yet to meet a traditional performer who judges you on where you come from, what accent you've got, or whether or not you should be playing that particular instrument or tune. All I've ever met both here in Britain and America are traditional performers who are so steeped in the music and so keen to play or sing it with you and to share the pleasure of the music that they've got no time or inclination to lay down rules and query your right to play with them. If traditional performers can be so open and welcoming how come so many revivalists who claim to love and understand the music are so anally retentive and joyless? Or p'raps I've got it all wrong and I've just been extremely lucky in my dealings with traditional performers, and haven't yet come across the crabby ones. I wonder if Elizabeth Cotton and Leadbelly had any doubts about the young, white, middle-class Seegers learning and playing their music? I doubt they had much more in common with them culturally, and vocally than the love of the music.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: meself
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

"The idea that one should or should not sing songs in accents other than one's own, or songs from one's own culture would rule out a large percentage of the middle and upper classes, or anyone that uses 'Received Pronuncation'"

These are two separate, if related issues: 1) singing songs in affected accents; 2) singing songs supposed to be from a culture not one's own. One might fully approve of one practice but not the other. Or vice versa.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:11 AM

Hmmm.... One thing that is puzzling me is the repeated references to "mid-Atlantic" accents. Does this mean English people trying to sound American and coming out halfway between English and American (and hence in the middle of the Atlantic?) I ask because here in the US, mid-Atlantic refers to the east coast states starting south of New England. The census bureau includes New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania in this region, while other organizations such as the Mid-Atlantic Folklife Association include Delaware, Maryland and Virginia as well.

Needless to say, the US accent aimed for by most folksingers is either a southern accent a la Carter Family, or a Western one a la Woody Guthrie, not a mid-Atlantic one. (Dylan himself was a midwesterner attempting a more rural Western accent, a la Woody.)

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:05 AM

"Does this mean English people trying to sound American and coming out halfway between English and American (and hence in the middle of the Atlantic?)
Yup - sure does pardner.
"The idea that one should or should not sing songs in accents other than one's own, or songs from one's own culture would rule out a large percentage of the middle and upper classes,"
(Hi Dave) As far as the Singer's Club went - and it was aimed at the Club's residents and guests (though it was a topic for discussion elsewhere occasionally) it was a guide rather than a set rule - I can never remember it being an 'issue' with the many floor singers who performed at the club in an attempted American accent. The basic idea was, if you were English, you sounded English. Hootenany's point about American culture being soaked up, was precisely what it was aimed at. Had the 'own culture/accent' thing been insisted upon it would have been a problem; it wasn't, so it wasn't - if you know what mean.
I can think of numerous singers with r.p or precise accents, who made the songs work perfectly without sounding either cut-glass or Mummerset. Frankie Armstrong, who is very 'well-spoken' was, and remains one of my favourite singers. Ewan sang Scots songs with what sounded to me, a fairly comfortable Scots accent. His speaking voice was somewhat neutral, though he had grown up surrounded by a variety of Scots accents. I was quite friendly with his mother Betsy, whose accent I often found impenetrable; this remained the case to the end of her life in the 80s. Ewan's accent did bother some Scots, but I can only say, when he sang, the earth usually moved for me (and still does)! The only exception was on some of his early recordings where he attempted a legs-crossingly excruciating Liverpool (my home town) accent. The only time this didn't bother me was on the song 'Leaving of Liverpool' which he often used to end the club evening and still never fails to induce waves of nostalgia in me.
The question of 'Oirish' accents used to be an issue here in Ireland, but it seems to have receded into the background nowadays, though there is a constant debate going on about whether non- Irish speakers should sing Gaelic songs, many of which have been learned parrot-fashion.
A slight divergence; The Clare Festival of Traditional Singing (to my mind, one of the best events I have ever attended) during the mammoth singing session on Sunday afternoons, introduced a period of around one hour where only songs in Irish were sung. The aim was to cater for the number of Sean Nós singers who attended and quite often (in the early days) didn't take part because they felt out of place. Nobody (in my hearing) ever accused this practice of being draconian; it worked like a charm and the festival became prominent in encouraging Irish language singing.
Jim Carroll
PS For those interested, The Clare Singing Festival, which stopped some years ago, is being re-started at the end of the year by the late organiser's widow, Annette Munnelly.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:51 AM

Completely off-topic
There is a story I heard about the wonderful Kerry box-player, the late Johnny Leary and a Northern Ireland singer having a conversation in a local pub here in Miltown; collector Tom Munnelly was sitting with them.
Johnny went to the bar to buy a round and the singer turned to Tom and said, "He's a lovely man, but I can't understand a word he says".
Some time later the singer went to the toilet and Johnny said, "What a nice man - I wish I knew what he was talking about"!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:45 AM

on some of his early recordings where he attempted a legs-crossingly excruciating Liverpool (my home town) accent

I'm a southerner in Manchester; I've been here 25 years now, but I know my limits. I'll put in a short A here or there (bath, not bahth) but that's it - Ee By Gum But I'm Cowd is not in my repertoire.

Funnily enough, the worst accent I ever attempted was a novelty cockernee for The Ploughboy And ditto - and that is my home area. I can see the straight faces now (-shudder-).

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,maxoz
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 07:48 PM

the singer in question was a guy called david tennant..........not the ex dr who.

he busked a lot round soho in that era.......often with john baldry or bryn holloway.

and the accent wasn't cockney, it was north london......he stemmed from tottenham.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 11:33 AM

Just came across this old thread, and I note that no-one has answered the original question. Singer Paul Snow says he was there at the time and the 'offending' singer was Redd Sullivan, whose proud unregenerate Cockney approach to songs I much loved. He was a resident at the folk club in the basement of the Partisan Coffee Bar along with Martin Windsor and young Long John Baldry. So happens I was just yesterday recalling my favourite verse as sung by Redd in the South African song Sarie Marain [un sure of this spelling].
The verse was
Peeping through the knothole in grandma's wooden leg
Who will put the cat out when I'm gone?
You can ride a knitted bicycle down the High Street
Oh, a boy's best friend is his mother
Ewan

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 05:17 PM

Redd Sullivan a cockney ? Are you sure ? I know Red had a pretty wide ranging repertoire which included some old music hall songs but I don't think that qualifies him as a cockney. I was under the impression that he wasn't even from London but I could be mistaken.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 06:01 PM

Fair enough, I've no idea where exactly he was born, I was responding in part to earlier terminology in this thread, and partly thinking on memories of his Southern English accent and urban vocal style -parading my ignorance, I'm afraid. He may never have even heard Bow Bells.
Ewan

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 08:31 PM

If you're one who objects to phony accents, how about Woody Guthrie (as well as Dylan and Rambling Jack )?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 08:38 PM

I think it was not Redd Sullivan AT ALL, The offending singer was not a cockney and not Redd Sullivan, but someone who was born north of london.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 11:58 PM

It must be great to have historical significance. Its funny how odd things (like this bloke singing the rock island line) are remembered whereas other things are not (like the sausage sandwich Napoleom ate before the battle of Austerlitz).

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 01:00 AM

===I suspect that Guest John above wasn't around in the fifties either as there weren't that many clubs (here I speak of London)around at the time good or bad.===
---
Yes there were ~ see Dave Arthur some posts above ~~ including one he mentions:-
So to revert 3 years behind the fair for the record to this over 3-yr-old post on this just-revived thread: Long John Baldry used right at beginning of his career to sing at the Skiffle Cellar in Greek St, later The Cellar FC, then The Establishment Club where the 'satire boom' was born & Lenny Bruce caused offence in v early '60s; & one of those venues named by Dave Arthur above as those frequented by early-revival folkies. It was run by Russ Quaye & Hylda Syms, who encouraged beginners ~ they gave me my first ever paid gig, in 1957 I think it was: ten shillings = 50p ~ not a bad first-gig rate then! & among the other more-or-less starters I remember at the time was Long John; also, I would estimate, late-56 or '57.

This, as I say, just for the record & to try to establish a time-line re Long John.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Dave Arthur
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 08:36 PM

Just to clear up any possible confusion - the Skiffle Cellar and The Establishment club were not the same place. They were, in fact, opposite each other at the Old Compton Street end of Greek Street. I remember walking past the red-painted Establishement when Lenny Bruce was performing there, and reading a blown-up review from one of the more staid London papers which described Bruce as suffering from ' diarrhoea of the mouth'! An 'illness' that not even Peggy accused young British blues singers of suffering from.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,maxoz
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 09:38 PM

i always find it amusing that MacColl (sic) who was always on about purity in folk was himself a fake scot really named James Henry Miller and hailing from Salford (love Dirty old town...that traditional irish ballad   lol).

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM

Casting an eye over this old thread, it occurred to me that there is an interesting distincion between those who would criticise people for singing songs in their own accents and those who would criticise them for singig the same songs in an accent that isn't there own.

And the odd thing is that there are people who would who believe both things at the same time, which implies that songs should never spread more than a few miles from wherever they were first sung.

My feeling is that we should feel free to sing songs from anywhere, using our own natural language.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,roderick warner
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 07:28 PM

I would take a cockney Leadbelly any time over the pious screechings of old Peggy but each to his own.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 08:34 PM

Iwas under the impression that Redd Sullivan was of irish extraction

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bugsy
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 09:02 PM

So, is Peggy Seeger's idea that if you are Not American, you can listen to Her sing songs from US but You can't sing them?

Bit of a bugger that eh? Didn't a lot of the "Traditional" folk songs in the US originate from UK/Ireland and other Celtic Countries?

I was born in UK and emigrated to Australia. Does that mean I can only sing songs from UK and my son (who was born in Australia) can't sing them and can only song songs from Aussie?

Give me a break.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 11:40 PM

Redd Sullivan may have been of Irish 'extraction', Dick ~~ the name suggests it; but he was in no way Irish-born, and his accent was entirely Southern English. Sounded sort of Cockney or S London or S Middlesex or thereabouts to me. I always took him for a Londoner, but he might I suppose have been born anywhere in Home Counties, or pretty well anywhere S of the conventionally thought of line between Bristol & the Wash, and between the areas thought of as The West & E Anglia.

~M~

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,maxoz
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 05:44 AM

always thought red was scots origin..............martin was very jewish and was fond of self-aggrendising jokes.

we had a love hate relationship when he ran the g&g.............i was very naiive...................always thought 'boy' was real schoolboy on his way home lol.

got kicked out when i set light to russels's sunday times when he was reading it.

anyone remember eddie with the taxi.....ran an off licence in destroyed part of battersea?

and of course, when arnold murray knocked the place over...........his time at HMP improved his guitar no end!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Dave Arthur
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 04:32 PM

For Newport Boy - (Phil)

Hi Phil - I'm working on a history of Soho in th 1950s/early 60s, from personal memories and impressions, of people, places etc. Not just musicians and music clubs, but they are obviously an important part of it. I wondered whether or not you fancy expanding on your Ballads and Blues days, also Partisan etc., and the coffee house in St Martin's Lane where you heard Long John Baldry.
Any memories and impressions of any, or all, of the above would be so useful. The actual physical space -description of the clubs - audiences? Organisers? Residents? Atmosphere? Guest lists? What attracted you to those clubs and Soho in general. Impressions of Soho itself at that time?
You can contact me apart from Mudcat at - storyart at aol dot com
Thanks a lot. Best wishes, Dave

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 11:50 AM

Some people go through life regarding it as half empty rather than half full, these people that criticise someones accent are half empty people.
isnt the most important thing that the songs are sung.I believe Martin Carthy said the only damage you can do to a song is not to sing it. some people who are interested in folk song end up getting incredibly precious about it, i wish they would fuck off