Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:42 AM

Jim wrote: Peggy's letter on her behaviour towards the singer can be found on the Living Tradition web-page dated July 2000 - still makes interesting reading.

It sure does. Thanks for that, Jim. Link here:

http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/htmfiles/edtxt39.htm

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:15 AM

Folkie Dave, my humblest apologies - I see you beat me to it!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:26 AM

But this bit bears repeating:

The editor wants to know "Who are Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie?" They were members of the Critics Group for most of the life of that group. They were two of the most loyal, industrious and intelligent members by far. It is possible that they have inherited some of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament (that's the way things go?) but there is no doubt that their work in the folksong world has been invaluable and dedicated.

And so say all of us...

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:29 AM

"my first 100"
Happy Birthday Dazbo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bert
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:28 PM

It strikes me that if a Cockney can't sing folk songs from outside of his tradition then he wouldn't have too much to sing.

Music hall, yes but folk songs, I don't know of many.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:33 PM

Bert
Who said he 'can't'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:36 PM

Incidentally,
The policy at the Singers Club led to the opening up of the London repertoire, which produced 2 albums of London songs and a whole stack left virtually untouched.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:08 PM

So a Cockney singing Leadbelly is laughable but THIS is OK?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:24 AM

Your point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:10 AM

Don't be puposefully obtuse, Jim.

The point is obviously that it would ill behove any member of the Seeger family to sneer at the inauthenticity of another artist's version of a Leadbelly song, when one of their number had so thoroughly dismantled, reassembled and changed the character of Goodnight Irene. Then took the song to Number One in the charts.

That's what I take to be the point. I'm not sure I agree. However I can see that it is that sort of minding of other singers business that has reduced folkclubs in popularity. Too much backbiting - perhaps Ewan picked it up from Joan Littlewood and the theatrical crowd - none of whom seem to have a good word to say for each other, not til obituary time anyway.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:48 AM

WMD
Not being 'purposefully obtuse' - Peggy laid out her stall fairly openly and honestly in her letter to The Living Tradition; she apologised for for her behaviour and 'confessed to her own wrongdoings'. I'm happy to grant her 'absolution' - how about you? As far as I'm concerned, she has no reason to apologise for the actions of her half-brother.
It's more than a little slick to blame the decline of the clubs on 'backbiting'.
My experience leads me to believe that they have reached the present sorry state because a parasitic growth has choked the life out of them to the extent that the term 'folk' has become meaningless and can now refer to anything from the Child ballads to the compositions of George Gershwin or William McGonagall.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM

That's what I take to be the point. I'm not sure I agree. However I can see that it is that sort of minding of other singers business that has reduced folkclubs in popularity. Too much backbiting - perhaps Ewan picked it up from Joan Littlewood and the theatrical crowd - none of whom seem to have a good word to say for each other, not til obituary time anyway.
WLD, well said,What is important in my opinion,is the performance and enjoyment of the music,when I go to a folk club,I go to enjoy myself,to hear the music I like.
I certainly do not expect when I buy an lp off the artist[in this case Ewan Maccoll and PeggySeeger]to be made to feel small by Ewan,because I am purchasing an lp of american folk songs by Peggy and Mike Seeger.
I was made to feel that I shouldnt be listening to American folk songs,and should only be buying lps of English songs.
Ewan and Peggy were/are very good performers,but his comment was bad mannered,out of place,and sarcastic.
I was a young man/teenager who felt intimidated by the guest performer ,and lacking in confidence to argue the toss with Ewan.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:17 AM

the club where I saw Ewan and Peggy and where I bought the lp was Farningham,this club was very successful,in fact there was a friday and a sunday club[singers club ]the residents were Skinners Rats and Pete Hicks,
In complete contrast with my experience with Ewan, this club was very encouraging to all types of folk music,floorsingers[I remember Brixton Bert,SimonPrager/SteveRye JeffDale all blues singers and good ones doing floorspots and pretty broad in its booking policy].
now this must have been about 1970,Stephane Grappeli was booked one night and people were being turned away,this was about the same time that Ewan and Peggy were booked.
so as far back as 1970 there were sucessful folk clubs with booking policies.
Jim Carroll said.
Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:48 AM

WMD
Not being 'purposefully obtuse' - Peggy laid out her stall fairly openly and honestly in her letter to The Living Tradition; she apologised for for her behaviour and 'confessed to her own wrongdoings'. I'm happy to grant her 'absolution' - how about you? As far as I'm concerned, she has no reason to apologise for the actions of her half-brother.
It's more than a little slick to blame the decline of the clubs on 'backbiting'.
My experience leads me to believe that they have reached the present sorry state because a parasitic growth has choked the life out of them to the extent that the term 'folk' has become meaningless and can now refer to anything from the Child ballads to the compositions of George Gershwin or William McGonagall.
Jim Carroll .
Well, I can remember going to a club in 1967,and hearing Ron Geesin,Ron on occassions during his gig used to recite Mcgonagle.
The reciting of Mcgonagle,and a fairly broad repertoire including blues ,American folk songs and bluegrass,has been going on for over forty years,.
to say they are in a sorry state,because of a catholic inclusion of Mcgonagle,child ballads,and others in the booking policies/and or floor spots at folk clubs,is historically inaccurate.
in fact I can recall seeing
Jug bands,Stephane Grappelli,PeteStanley,
Ron Geesin,GerryLockran,Ralph Mctell,Roy Harper, Derek Brimstone Red Clay Ramblers,Between the period 1966 and 1970.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:22 AM

However I can see that it is that sort of minding of other singers business that has reduced folkclubs in popularity.

I don't see that any club setting it's own scope, aims or policy affects the popularity of folk clubs overall and I don't consider setting such things "minding of other singers business".

I am however concerned about people minding other folk clubs, etc. business and I think a fair amount of damage is done on the Internet by people believing their way to run an event is the only way.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:41 AM

Is there any hope that people could please not copy-paste long passages of the posts they are replying to, when the originals are only one or two slots away? We can perfectly well glance up and refer to them if we need to. Long unnecessary quotes are just confusing and they waste so much space.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:12 AM

Cap'n,
You once reprimanded me for bringing up something that happened 'a long time ago'; I believe that on that occasion it was about a dozen years previously.
I don't know when your 'incident' with MacColl happened (I'm not even sure I understand how he managed to earn your disapproval), but I would guess it was at least twice that length of time - seems a long time to be carrying a grudge - especially against a man who has been dead for nearly twenty years!
I always found MacColl extremely approachable, generous, polite, and very helpful when his assistance and advice was sought - but that's me.
Who knows, perhaps you caught him on a bad day - on the other hand it is not inconceivable that you managed to get up his nose, as you do mine (and I suspect others) on a regular basis.
Strange as it may seem, MacColl did not often take part in public polemic. From the mid-sixties onward, around the time of the John Snow debacle, he set up The Critics Group, and confined his work to that and to The Singers Club.
He gave a few interviews, but he wrote little on the folk scene, at least I have been hard-pushed to find anything of any great significance.
Personally, I believe that his failure to engage in public debate was a fatal mistake - but again, that's me.
He was always forthcoming and honest when an opinion was sought, which quite often didn't go down too well with many of the sycophantic 'lovies' of the revival, but he usually confined his comments to that level.
Despite this, he remains the target of constant vituperative abuse and slander nearly twenty years after his death, all of which proves to me that he must have done something right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:43 AM

Jim,
I have the utmost respect for Maccoll as a writer and performer.
I am not carrying a grudge,but relating an incident,that I think illustrates that Ewans attitude .,and is relevant to the discussion in hand.
I bought an LP off him, he criticised my choice, because it was American folk songs.,I walked away[end of conversation].
I later booked Ewan/ Peggy at a folk club I ran,and also did a support act at their concert,we got on well.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

Jim Carroll

Your point?

WLD has it about right. (Who would have thought that we would ever agree about anything?) I'm not holding Peggy Seeger responsible for anything thet the Weavers did, just pointing out that she must have been very familiar with interpretations of Leadbelly far removed from the original culture. I will never know what the Cockney Leadbelly sounded like, but, to my taste, the Weavers' version of Goodnight Irene is toe-curlingly embarrassing.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

Cap'n,
"I have the utmost respect for Maccoll as a writer and performer."
I'm sure that's a weight off his mind!
He questioned your taste in music - the bastard - that's worth an eternity of roasting in Hell at least. He criticised your buying an American record - oh come on, give us a break! He must have gone through hell living with Peggy.
Snail,
Peggy was aware of what the Weavers, and Pete were doing - and had things to say about it on occasion!
I seem to have missed the point somewhere, WMD appeared to be criticising Peggy for what The Weavers did - have I got that wrong.
Couldn't agree more about what they did to poor Irene.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bert
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

Bert
Who said he 'can't'?
Jim Carroll

Well it seems to me that Peggy Seeger and The Singers Club are of the opinion that one shouldn't sing songs from outside of one's own
culture.

But more important, what songs are on the two albums you mention?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

No - read Peggy's letter again - it was really aimed at accent and language.
Can't lay my hands on the records at present,
Off the top of my head
Blind Beggar of Bethnall Green, Betsy Baker, Georgie Barnell, London Ordinary, Tottie, Fan in the Lion's Den, London Burning in Ashes - can't remember any more; will dig them out later.
Prior to these albums Ewan did 2 Folkways albums of London broadsides which containes Roome For Company, Pity's Lamentation, There's Nothing to be had Without Money, The Midwife's Ghost, Merry Progress to London, London's Lottery, King Lear and his Three Daughters, The Female Frolic, Give Me My Yellow Rose, King and no King and Constance of Cleveland.

Terry Yarnell was/is researching material for a book of London songs and had compiled a large list of them last time I spoke to him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

I only said "WLD has it about right." I can't take responsibility for everything he said.

In Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition, she makes it clear that a lot of people were singing all sorts of things from all sorts of cultures in a variety of accents. This seemed to be the accepted norm. I find it hard to understand why a Cockney singing a traditional song from a different culture in his own voice should have such an impact.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

You have obviously never seen an Irishman's reaction to a cod 'Oirish' accent.
Then again - there's always Dick Van Dyke's cockney chimney sweep.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: meself
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:02 PM

Jim - Granted you were much closer to the action than I, but - don't you have this the wrong way around? Isn't it the point that the 'Cockney' was NOT singing in a put-on accent, in other words, he was singing a southern Black song in his own accent, as opposed to (for example) Dick Van Dyke's attempt at doing a Cockney accent? Or have I misunderstood the originial story?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:23 PM

Thanks meself, you beat me to it.

The accusation against The Cockney Leadbelly was not that he was trying to imitate the real thing but that he was singing in his own voice whereas Peggy Seeger said "I knew what the song should sound like and the manner of delivery and the insertion of Cockney vowels into a southern USA black prisoners' song just sounded funny." which implies that he should have tried to reproduce the original (or not sung it at at all.)

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

Sorry if I got it wrong, but I'm pretty certain that I didn't.
As I understood the story it was a cockney stab at a black Texan accent that pushed Peggy off her chair.
The mid- Atlantic accents used for the singing of American material gave rise to the term 'Walthamstow Cowboys'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

Jim Carroll

Sorry if I got it wrong, but I'm pretty certain that I didn't.
As I understood the story it was a cockney stab at a black Texan accent that pushed Peggy off her chair.

Not the way I read it. Peggy said -

I knew what the song should sound like and the manner of delivery and the insertion of Cockney vowels into a southern USA black prisoners' song just sounded funny.

It was singing a black Texan song in a cockney accent that was the problem.

Neither of us was there. Will we ever know?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: meself
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

Peggy's statement is open to interpretation: was the singer trying to do a Black Texan accent but failing to mask his "Cockney vowels", or was he singing the song with no attempt to disguise his native accent? But if Jim has the story from other sources (other than the article), or is basing his impression on other things Peggy has said, then I'm willing to accept his take on it (a great relief to him, no doubt!).

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

I don't think any of the Seeger have anything to apologise for. I never said they did. Their contribution has been enormous. Peggy and Pete have shown generosity of spirit to me personally.

But when you're a pot you should show proper respect for the ethnic origins of the kettle.

as to your other point:-
'folk' has become meaningless and can now refer to anything from the Child ballads to the compositions of George Gershwin or William McGonagall.

I went a songwriting workshop with Pete Morton today at Grantham folk festival. Pete said something interesting during his little lecture. Namely that folkmusic isn't 'factory line' stuff. It sort of binds us together.

If you find the humanity in a piece of music, maybe that's just another word for folk, isn't it?

best wishes

al

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:22 AM

I heard the story years ago from Peggy and have always assumed (in fact, in context of how I heard it, I'm pretty certain) that he was attempting an American accent and didn't quite make it. I hope to see Peggy later this year and I'll make a point of asking her.
The question of phony accents - mid-Atlantic, 'Oirish' or 'Ooo ah' etc was one that came up regularly in the Critics Group.
Nobody had problems with singing songs from outside our culture as far as I'm concerned, as long as you managed to sound like the real 'you' not a pretend 'you'.
I have around fifty-sixty songs in my repertoire taken from Scots or Irish sources, all Anglicised to fit my accent. When we started collecting I made it a practice to learn at least 1 song from each of the people we recorded (Irish Travellers, West of Ireland, Norfolk), but it was me singing the songs, not them.
Bert - contents of Critics Group London albums as promised.
Album 1 - 'A Merry Progress to London'
Street Cries, Painters Song, Roome For Company (at Bartholemew Fair), A Merry Progress to London, Maid of Tottenham, In Newry Town, Ploughboy and The Cockney, The Bold Leiutenant, London Ordinary, London Mourning in Ashes, Lass ofd Islington, Through Moorfields, Jarvis The Coachman, The Blind Beggar, There's Nothing to be Had Without Money, Georgie Barnell, Lawyer's Lament for Charing Cross.
Album 2 - Sweet Thames Flow Softly.
Street Cries, Tottie, Judges and Juries, Parson Grocer, Betsy Baker, Plank Bed Ballad, The Jail Song, William and Phyllis, Randolph Turpin and Sugar Ray Fight, Supermarket Song, Ratcliff Highway, Outward Bound, My Jolly Sailor Bold, Streets of London, Colour Bar Strike, Landlord's Nine Questions, Sweet Thames Flow Softly
Whew!!!
Both albums were originally released on Argo - there were rumours of Topic re-releasing them; don't know if it came to anything.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:32 AM

Sorry, 'sme again
WLD
"If you find the humanity in a piece of music, maybe that's just another word for folk, isn't it?"
Not for me it isn't.
The term was created to describe song, music, tales, customs with specific origins, creative patterns, transmission etc.
Apply it in the general sense, as you propose, and it ceases to have any meaning - I find much 'humanity' in Beethoven's string quartets, or Goya's war paintings, or Zola's short stories, but I would never describe them as 'folk'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:36 AM

Put it another way......a string quartet arrives at your folk club.

They say, can we do a ten minute spot mate?

You say, nah piss off! Ludwig Van Beethoven....he doesn't fit the 1954 definition, so he can bollocks!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:48 AM

Depending on the club and the situation, I could well point out that we have folk spots not classical pieces, perhaps ask if they did anything in keeping, etc. yes.

And I've yet to hear of anything describing itself as a folk club that is truly open to everything musical. Perhaps one might draw the line at heavy metal, classical seems to me a good one at getting people complaining "it's not folk", and oddly enough I've found this sort of thing with people who themselves claim to be open to anything...

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:25 AM

We've had classical guitar and all sorts, down Chorlton. We had someone do a spot on solo trumpet once - with sheet music.

What you think about that will depend on what question you're really asking. Was that folk music? No, not in any sense of the word. Did it make a reasonable floor spot in the middle of an evening? Yes. Is it a problem if people pitch up at a folk club and do stuff like that? No - at least, not as long as there's stuff that can be called folk going on as well.

A lack of traditional material is a problem - or at least a danger - but I don't think it's a problem that can be solved by prescriptive MCing.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:35 AM

I suppose how long the performance goes on is a factor too - a ten-minute string quartet movement (never mind all the setting up time) isn't the same as some piece which is only the length of an average song and doesn't use up more than one floor spot. Most club audiences I've seen are pretty broad-minded provided their tolerance isn't abused - and going on for too long probably falls into that category.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:59 AM

But then the lead violinist says, Only kidding mate! Fields of Athenry, Streets of London and The Wild Rover. It'll go down a storm!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM

Hootennanny - just for the record, the question of what and which was the oldest folk club in England has been discussed on Mudcat. I'll link to a post from me half way down concerning the Topic in Bradford (opened 1956) - BLICKY.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:51 AM

Thanks for the trouble Geoff but I am not that interested. I was only pointing out that The Ballads and Blues club in London pre-dated the Singers Club in London. Jim Carroll kindly supplied the dates above. It could be misconstrued from Peggy's item that the Ballads and Blues Club became the Singers club. It did not.
When Peggy and Ewan went to form the Singers Club the Ballads and Blues club continued until May 1965. We had no quarrel with them or their club, they just chose a different policy to us. My own policy was to use singers that would entertain rather than educate and no, I am not looking for another pointless argument.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:19 PM

thankyou hoot,I was unaware of that.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

Jim Carroll

I heard the story years ago from Peggy and have always assumed (in fact, in context of how I heard it, I'm pretty certain) that he was attempting an American accent and didn't quite make it.

You seem to have knowledge beyond that available from the Living Tradition letter so I'll take your word for it. What you describe would, indeed, be embarrassing.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bert
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:02 PM

Thanks Jim, that is an interesting list. It puzzles and worries me that I haven't heard of most of those songs.

Are they really that obscure or is it just a lack of experience on my part? I was born in London and our family had a great singing tradition but those songs weren't among those that we sang.

I suspect that they predated the music hall songs which seemed to be a big part of my family's repertoire.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM

Bert,
The bulk of the songs on the albums were from broadside collections.
The following were (I think) to be found in the tradition; not sure of the sources of those particular versions:
Street Cries, Painters Song, Maid of Tottenham, In Newry Town, The Bold Leiutenant, Lass of Islington, The Blind Beggar, Outward Bound, Ratcliff Highway, Judges and Juries, Plank Bed Ballad, The Jail Song.
These were composed in the latter half of the 20th century:
Randolph Turpin and Sugar Ray Fight, Supermarket Song, Streets of London, Colour Bar Strike, Landlord's Nine Questions, Sweet Thames Flow Softly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM

"I'll take your word for it"

Me three.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

Did no one else notice that we were treated to a rare post, above, by the grand and glorious Max?

Max made an excellent point that has not really been acknowledged in the various ramblings posted since. Embarrassingly clueless performances (and even inappropriate audience participation) is not so much a matter of "accents" real or fake, but of a fundamental understanding of the music.

If you take a song from the African-American tradition and emphasize the "one" and "three" beats instead of the the two and four, you pretty much destroy the most basic feeling upon which the entire composition is built, regardless of whether your vocal accent is an authentic imitation of the the orignal, your own authentic voice, or a hapless and transparently fake attempt at reinterpreting a voice you obviously do not understand and cannot truly "hear."

There are plenty of excellent British singers who have demonstrated a true understanding of The Blues and related American soul/roots genres. Long John Baldry was one, or at least eventually became one, even if he actually did give offense in his youth by a weak attempt at interpretation. Chicago white-boy Paul Butterfield, may God rest his soul, was every bit as authentic and true a blues singer and harp player as any of the older black artists who inspired him. But of course, not every wannabe is that good or that true.

I was a fan of PPM, but with reservations. Having grown up next door to a CME church, I knew very well what real black gospel music was supposed to sound like, and I knew darn well that PPM filed miserably to capture that sound in such efforts as, say, "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well."

I was not as familiar with the original versions of many other pieces, representing other folk subgenres, such as "Cuckoo," and therefore was not the least bit unhappy with the PPM versions of most of their repertoire. If I've learned more about this music in the years since then, I suppose the "popularizers" should be given credit.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: meself
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:00 PM

"If, for example, Bo Diddley sang a Mozart aria, y'all might be on the floor too."

Obviously it was just bad luck that Bo Diddley would have come up here in a hypothetical example of dubious performance just a couple of days before his death, but reading an article linked in the obit. thread, I came across this:


"He [Bo Diddly] then patches his instrument into a guitar synthesizer and begins playing Bach on the strings, ... "


Maybe the idea of Bo Diddley doing the Mozart aria is not so far-fetched ...

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Dave Arthur
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:21 AM

Despite my better judgement and my determination not to get involved in all this seemingly endless discussion, much of which is hearsay, myth and supposition, I finally can't resist throwing my three penn'orth in.
Firstly, Ferrara (5.8.08), I don't know where you got your information from but the idea that A.L.Lloyd 'stopped singing American songs and started looking for more British songs' and then became motivated to look into his own heritage because of Ewan and Peggy's song policy is just silly. Bert had been listening to and recording English traditional performers for some twenty years before the Ballads and Blues came into existence. And he certainly didn't need to be encouraged to sing English material by Peggy or Ewan. Admittedly, earlier, both Bert and Ewan and virtually everybody else on the '50s folk/skiffle scene had sung some American material, usually influenced by the Almanac Singers, Guthrie etc.
Secondly, Stringsinger, in defence of Long John Baldry, whom I knew well in the late 50s, when we would both, along with other teenage folk music players and singers, hang out in the GGs (Gyre and Gymble) in John Adam Street, next to Charing Cross Station, he was not a Cockney, he was a policeman's son who grew up in Edgeware . And to describe him as 'the Cockney guy who sang a style with which he was unfamiliar (and) showed a kind of insensitivity to the song' is as silly, and as ill-informed, as Ferrara's Bert Lloyd quote. John was perfectly familiar with the 'style' of music he played. He immersed himself in the blues and especially Leadbelly and, even as a late teenager well before Peggy saw fit to laugh at his, he was an impressive, powerful singer and a great 12-string guitarist. He was one of the first Soho players to own a 12-string made by the fine luthier Toni Zamaitis who died in 2002. He certainly undestood the blues as well if not better than most British singers of that period, and probably some Americans.
Someone earlier suggested that the GGs was a folk club that might have pre-dated the Ballads and Blues. It wasn't actually a club, it was simply a basement coffee bar run by a banjo player (Fritz) and a guitarist (Max?) where people dropped in and played either en route to Soho (if you came off the train at Charing Cross) or at some point in the evening during the obligatory circuit of pubs, clubs, coffee bars - the Partisan, Sam Widges, the Nucleus, the Farm (possibly the St Martin's Lane coffee cellar where Long John was spotted by another writer on this thread. Although the Farm was actually further up in Monmouth Street, next to the As You Like It salad restaurant, but when I usd to run it for a while, John, Davey Graham, Jerry Lochran, Clive Palmer and many other guitarists and banjo players used to drop in and play), The Duke of York, The Skiffle Cellar, etc.,
I don't think that the repertory rules laid down by E & P and the committee did any harm. most of the folk scene went on its own way and did its own thing, and some of the more rigid clubs tended to end up in a bit of a cultural cul-de-sac. But I'm all for people feeling free to sing whatever attracts them and whatever audiences are happy to accept. The only
criterion for me is whether or not its done well and (back to LJB) with understanding. As someone else pointed out many of the singers of folk songs in Britain have been listening to American folk music and absorbing other forms of popular U.S. culture all their lives, which might not be a good thing, and is exactly what Bert Lloyd and MacColl were attempting to counteract with the 2nd folk Revival, but, like it or not, many of us have probably got as much of a feeling for, say Appalachian music, as has a middle-class New Yorker. Most of the leading Old Timey revival musicians in the '50s and '60s were New York Jewish with as little or possibly less cultural relationship to the mountain ballad singers of Kentucky and Carolina than the average Brit. It's an area riddled with quicksands, and a subject as slippery as a greased pig, and it's a brave person who lays down rules and laws when it comes to traditional music.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

Well said Dave. "it's a brave person who lays down rules and laws when it comes to traditional music. Would you mind repeating that to Walkaboutsverse in his English folk music degree thread!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM

no, dont go there.I went there and thought I had died and gone to hell.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:07 PM

Just kidding, I am there, can't get an answer out of the guy.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:20 PM

Nice to hear from you Dave Arthur. I can understand your reticence in joining in on this but you were there and I was there and Jim Carroll at a slightly later date. So much garbage has come up from people who weren't and don't realise how much American "culture" had been soaked up over here (for better or worse) before the folk scare of the late fifties.
I realised when I mentioned the Gyre & Gimble above that it may look as if I was inferring that it was a club. Of course it wasn't. I went there once or twice after my guitar lessons with Peggy which used to be held above Greek restaurant in Coram Street.

Hoot