Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:25 PM

yes, Iheard it too.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Nerd
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:16 PM

Peggy tells the story of marrying Alex Campbell herself, in The Peggy Seeger songbook. So it's pretty much gospel.

She was visibly pregnant, and Ewan was the father, but Ewan was still married to someone else. The clergyman who married Seeger and Campbell obviously thought Campbell was the father, so he gave him a stern lecture on looking after this young girl he'd gotten in trouble!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:39 PM

Cecil Sharp didn't find 'The Wild Rover' in Norfolk, as various people have stated; but that's because he never collected songs there. In fact he doesn't seem to have come across it at all, though other collectors did. It was pretty widely known in the southern half of England and the north of Scotland, where most of the early C20 collecting was done; probably throughout the UK if it comes to that, but we don't know for sure. Versions have also been found, more recently, in the USA, Canada, Australia, and Ireland.

It's an English, not Scottish, broadside song; widely printed in varying forms from the early C19 onward (plenty of examples at the Bodleian website. None from Scotland, though it clearly arrived there, albeit a little later): it was based on material from an earlier and much longer song written by Thomas Lanfiere in the later part of the 17th century (and published in London): 'The Good Fellow's Resolution; Or, The Bad Husband's return from his Folly.' We don't know what tune 'Wild Rover' was originally sung to (traditional versions vary), but at least one other broadside song (a re-write of 'Captain Ward and the Rainbow') was to be sung to 'The Wild Rover'.

More details are in thread Origins of The Wild Rover, though some of the posts aren't very accurate, and the mistaken reference to Sharp (where on earth did that come from?) is made there too.

The version in question here was from the repertoire of Sam Larner of Winterton in Norfolk, as has already been mentioned, though some people have drawn unwarranted conclusions based on what they would like people to have said rather than what they actually did say; that makes it so much easier to dismiss the question without really addressing it.

Ewan MacColl (not, as I have said, Cecil Sharp) got the song from Sam in 1958, and it appeared in MacColl and Seeger, The Singing Island (London: Mills Music, 1960, number 45, page 50). Sam's chorus (which doesn't appear in most traditional versions) was essentially the now-familiar one. It's a little late to ask him whether or not he thought that 'nay' was an uncommon word in Norfolk, but I see no reason to think that it would be any more out of place there than anywhere else. I will ask around next time I am there, but Jim Carroll (who knew Sam) may have more immediate and helpful things to say when he returns from his holidays.

At some point, if we accept the usual story, the Dubliners picked the song up (they and the Clanceys drew freely on the English as well as Irish repertoires) and the rest is, after a fashion, history. If that is indeed what happened, then the tune of the verses was changed a bit at some point during the course of borrowing: Sam's verses were sung to a form of the 'If I Was a Blackbird' melody, while his chorus was the familar one. It only takes a little ironing out of the subtleties of Sam's tune to arrive at the one made famous by the Dubliners; who also changed it from a reflective thing to the table-thumping anthem for drunks that we all know so well.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:42 AM

> Peggy tells the story of marrying Alex Campbell herself, in The Peggy Seeger songbook. So it's pretty much gospel.

Yep. I've always thought that Cyril Tawney's song New Names For Old was about this, though it also introduces some emotional vulnerability into the mix. I have no idea whether that aspect is true or not, but it certainly makes for a poignant song. A Cyril-related webpage (not his official site) asks a similar question:

NEW NAMES FOR OLD (1968)
If a career-conscious American lady offers a fellow money to give her his name and British nationality in a marriage of convenience, with no strings attached, he might well turn her down, as a friend of mine did. But what if she's the girl of his dreams? Might he not take a chance on something more permanent?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:57 AM

Malcolm,I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
As someone who spent quite alot of time[many years] living in East Anglia,North Essex and Suffolk,I am fairly well acquainted with the language/dialect.
Nay is not a common term in Norfolk or East Anglia.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:41 AM

furthermore, my ex wifes family were all either Norfolk or Suffolk,I never heard them use the word nay once.
more likely to be further north, yorkshire?teeside?lancashire?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:43 AM

....don't know about this debate but I'm going to see Peggy tonight (with Martin Carthy, Norma Waterson & Mike Waterson) at Reeth Memorial Hall, shall I ask her?

Paul

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:08 AM

This episode is pretty well covered in Ben Harker's "Class Act"

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Santa
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:28 AM

I hope Greg does find out who this singer was - can no-one even come up with any suggestions? Even a list of those who did sing at the club around this time might at least help to rule out who it wasn't, or jumpstart a few memories?

Otherwise it is just another thread on the (to me) empty argument about singing/not singing outside your own tradition. I think the scene would be poorer without the wider distribution of such songs, but can understand why some combinations just don't work!

My wife has similar problems with some of the songs she'd like to sing. She loves the big ballads, but as they tend to come in Scots dialect she is never happy about how much she should go in attempting/avoinding the accent/dialect without ruining the rythms.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:56 AM

Thanks for the heads-up about Harker's book, DaveS. I had managed not to know about it.

Amazon page here - the first customer review (written by Mike Mecham of Essex) is particularly good, I thought.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0745321658/ref=cm_r8n_gvthanks_cont?ie=UTF8&%

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 May 08 - 11:51 AM

As to the word "nay" being or not being common in that area, I think it's irrelevant, or at least far from conclusive.

If you want to fill a line with three alliterated words starting with N, and you want all of them to be a negative, your choice is pretty limited, isn't it?   Sure, the line COULD have been "No, no, never", but that's pretty pallid, and the use of "nay" gives three distinct negatives, making it far more interesting.

"Nay" doesn't, for that purpose, have to be part of your everyday speech; all it has to be is known and recognizable.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Shannock
Date: 09 May 08 - 02:12 PM

'Nay' is a very common part of speech in my part of North Norfolk.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Nerd
Date: 09 May 08 - 02:17 PM

Uncle Dave-O's point is well taken, and anyway Shannock makes the "nay" question even less relevant with his revelation.

It just occurred to me, though, that in 2008 America, it would be

No, NOT, Nuh-uh
No, NOT, Nuh-uh No More...

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Shannock
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:11 PM

I do see why you're called 'Nerd'. Why assume I'm male?

I was merely challenging Birdseye's point that 'nay' wasn't used in Norfolk.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:29 PM

"I was merely challenging Birdseye's point that 'nay' wasn't used in Norfolk"

and so you should, Shannock...I mean isn't this what its all about..debate?

and speaking of irrelevant
No, NOT, Nuh-uh
No, NOT, Nuh-uh No More... *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:37 PM

Can we return for a moment to Greg's original query about the identity of the "Cockney Leadbelly"? Perhaps we might get closer to identifying this mystery man if we knew whether he accompanied himself on a twelve-string guitar (as Leadbelly did on the original recording of "Rock Island Line").

In the very early 1960s, 12-string guitars were very rare on this side of the pond. As far as I recall, the first imports from the US began appearing in British musical instrument shops in 1963 - round about the time the Rooftop Singers had a hit with "Walk Right In". Before then, I can remember seeing only three used in folk clubs.

One was played by Rory McEwan, a singer of Scottish folk songs with a strong interest in the blues, who had travelled extensively in the US probably bought his instrument there. It seems unlikely that anyone - even a recently arrived American - would have mistaken Rory for a Cockney.

Another belonged to Cyril Davies, who played in blues bands with Alexis Korner and Long John Baldry before his tragically early death. I believe Cyril's 12-string was specially made for him by Tony Zemiatis. If Cyril ever frequented MacColl's Club, his reputation as a "hard man" would probably have deterred anyone there from challenged his right to sing Leadbelly songs.

The third 12-string I heard during that era belonged to Alec Davidson, a Londoner equally comfortable singing American blues and country music or British songs and ballads. I was told that Alec became so inspired by Leadbelly's guitar playing that he wrote to the great man's widow asking for the vital statistics of his Stella 12-string, and that a friend who was a skilled woodworker used this data to produce an instrument which sounded reasonably authentic.

Of these three suspects, Alec sounds the most likely to have been the "Cockney Leadbelly". If he's still around, maybe someone who knows him could ask if he remembers the incident?

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Nerd
Date: 09 May 08 - 07:28 PM

Sorry, Shannock. Just a joke. And as for the gender, I didn't so much assume as guess...sorry I guessed wrong!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 May 08 - 01:42 PM

'Nay' is actually a midlands word and is still frequently to be heard amongst the equine population of the counties Staffordhire and Derbyshire.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:08 PM

There is something to be said for "doing your homework" and knowing about the style,
tradition and history of the song you are singing.

Peggy has done her homework.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Judy Dyble
Date: 10 May 08 - 04:02 PM

This is all a bit away from the question of who the poor fellow was in the first post, but I thought this might help (or indeed confuse) the issue of the Norfolk 'Nay' I checked with my cousin who is a Norfolk woman and she was definite that 'Nay' was not a word she'd heard used. Both my father and hers were born to a fishing family in Winterton and, in fact, the family knew Sam Larner and sang with him on occasions. Possibly even in the pub (the Fisherman's Return) which is still a fine place today.
Sam Larner was known to my Uncle Walter as 'Funky' Larner but I haven't been able to find out why!(Uncle Walter is in his late 90's so that may be a bit of a muddled memory.) He is now the last of his generation of the family still living, and I am trying to find out what he remembers of those times.

Judy

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Alex Dale
Date: 11 May 08 - 01:12 PM

To return to the original question, Peggy's recollection appears to differ slightly from that of Ewan, who addressed the issue in an interview with Fred Woods in Folk Review when he accepted collective responsibility for the policy. "We initiated a rule that you sang the songs of the language you spoke and the language that you had grown up with." He said the issue had arisen over a "Newcastle lad of Irish extraction and wanted to sing Greek songs though he'd never been to Greece." No mention of a cockney Leadbelly.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 08 - 01:30 PM

shannocks eh,they will be telling us next that the Singing Postman was born in Grantham.
Didnt stop him from writing some good songs,and singing in a Norfolk accent.
the world is full of pillocks,and it was a pillock that interupted the Singing Postmans set,when he was singing Im a shannock.[With no your not you were born in Grantham].For our overseas friends a Shannock[ To be a true Shannock, it means you have been born in Sheringham, your parents were born in Sheringham and your Grandparents were Sheringham born and bred].Sheringham is part of Norfolk .

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 11 May 08 - 06:41 PM

Cats

I was at Peggy's concert in Okehampton too! really enjoyed it, particularly her Ballad of Jimmy Massey. (Wasn't able to make the Bridstowe event in the end, wasn't practically possible. Trust it went well?)

Sorry, slight drift here.

Sue

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 08 - 11:53 AM

MYSTERY SOLVED(Possibly?)

Colin Irwin has just told me that he saw Peggy Seeger the other day, so he thought he would go right ahead and ask her. And she said the Cockney Leadbelly was Long John Baldry. Alas, he is not around to pass on his own comments. Unless someone turns up who remembers him talking about the incident?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:16 PM

Interesting Greg. I have to admit I know the name, but don't really know anything about Long John Baldry.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:28 PM

long john baldry,was a great Rand bsinger
John William Baldry, popularly known as Long John Baldry, (January 12, 1941 – July 21, 2005) was an English blues singer. He sang with many notable British musicians, with Rod Stewart and Elton John appearing in bands led by Baldry at various stages of the 1960s. He enjoyed pop success in the UK where "Let the Heartaches Begin" reached No. 1 in 1967 and in Australia where his duet with Kathi McDonald "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" reached No. 2 in the charts in 1980. Baldry lived in Canada from the late 1970s until his death, where he continued to make records and do voiceover work. He is known by a younger generation as the voice of Dr. Robotnik in Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:38 PM

Supporting circumstantial evidence from this obituary -

By the late 1950s, Baldry was a leading figure on the Soho scene and the only regular performer at both the blues club of Alexis Korner and Cyril Davies and the folk-song sessions run by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. The policy of the irascible MacColl was that singers should perform only the music of their native country, but he made an exception for Baldry, who remained a close friend until MacColl's death in 1989.

The Guardian, Saturday July 23 2005

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Newport Boy
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:48 PM

This doesn't ring true for me. Anne & I were in London together from 1958 to 1960, and were regulars at Ballads & Blues in Soho Square, which doesn't seem to be mentioned these days. As far as I recall, Long John Baldry never appeared there.

I first heard John in a coffee bar in St Martins Lane early in 1958. He sang unaccompanied one of the solo blues from the Parchman Farm recordings on "Murderer's Home". This was a straight copy, and it was near-perfect - pitch, intonation and accent.

I heard him a few times over the following year, mainly at the Partisan, and his American blues singing was always spot-on. I heard him sing a number of things, but never the popular skiffle songs.

Peggy reports the incident as about 1960. I can't believe that in 1960 Long John Baldry would put cockney vowels in a Leadbelly song - unless he was parodying the Lonnie Donegan version. It would fit with his sense of humour.

Phil

Phil

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:50 PM

Despite the fact that I think this thread is pretty pointless,I must say that John was one of few people in the UK that could put blues material across pretty convincingly. To call his accent cockney is completely incorrect, he never even spoke with a cockney accent.
I knew John well and worked with him from 1961 onward. At that time he was very well respected on the folk and blues scene. He appeared regularly at the Ballads and Blues Club before going on to appear with New Orleans revivalist jazz bands, then Cyril Davies's Allstars. He then took over the band after Cyril's early death. Followed that by being one of the three vocalists in the Steampacket, the other two being Rod Stewart and Julie Driscoll.
John went on to a quite successful career and and moved to Canada but continued touring in Europe. If he had followed the "rules" that Peggy/Ewan put down and only sang songs from North West London where he lived, I don't think anyone would remember him.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:33 PM

Fascinating to see 'Chinese whispers at work'
The Snail wrote:
"The policy of the irascible MacColl was that singers should perform only the music of their native country,"
While Hootenanny wrote:
"the "rules" that Peggy/Ewan put down and only sang songs from North West London where he lived,"
C'mon fellers, if you are going to get it wrong, at least sing from the same hymn-sheet.
It was the policy of The Singers Club committee, on which I served, that only singers who sang in their native accents should be booked or be a resident at the club.
Whatever happened outside of the club was no concern of ours.
Our aim was to open up or own national repertoires - it worked.
If you haven't already, suggest you read Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition on the subject.
Baldry was a friend of E&P's; both admired his music, but he was certainly never booked there during my time at the club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:39 PM

Jim, Snail was quoting from the obituary posted, Snail did not write those words.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:58 PM

Thank you irishenglish. At least someone is paying attention.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:19 PM

can we all just get on with playing and enjoying music?
Fascinating to see 'Chinese whispers at work'
The Snail wrote:
"The policy of the irascible MacColl was that singers should perform only the music of their native country,"
While Hootenanny wrote:
"the "rules" that Peggy/Ewan put down and only sang songs from North West London where he lived,"
C'mon fellers, if you are going to get it wrong, at least sing from the same hymn-sheet.
It was the policy of The Singers Club committee, on which I served, that only singers who sang in their native accents should be booked or be a resident at the club.
Whatever happened outside of the club was no concern of ours.
Our aim was to open up or own national repertoires - it worked.
If you haven't already, suggest you read Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition on the subject.
Baldry was a friend of E&P's; both admired his music, but he was certainly never booked there during my time at the club.
Jim Carroll.
and they all lived happily ever after,flopsy and mopsy,and peter rabbit ,along with pigling bland,never ever sang songs other than those from their native Westmoreland.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Sorry Snail, My mistake - wasn't concentrating.
Cap'n
I think you might have hit on your own level at last - I'd follow it up if I were you.
"and they all lived happily ever after,flopsy and mopsy,and peter rabbit ,along with pigling bland,never ever sang songs other than those from their native Westmoreland."

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Whoops,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:20 PM

"can we all just get on with playing and enjoying music?"
Forgot to add Cap'n - please mind your own business and stop telling others what to do!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:56 PM

Just to try and clarify things, I was writing about The Ballads and Blues Club where Ewan and Peggy were virtually resident at the time. It would have been there probably that Peggy heard Long John.
I was not referring to The Singers Club which Ewan and Peggy formed along with Bruce Dunnett at a later date. I have pointed out on earlier threads that it was at the Ballads and Blues Club where Ewan started all the bit about singing songs of your own country. He did not consult us the paying audience. He may have done so at his own club but as my visits there were very rare I cannot say.
I would have been very surprised indeed if John had appeared at the Singers Club. He never did while I was handling his bookings.

As a matter of interst Jim Were you around the London folk scene during the fifties? It didn't just start with The Singers Club you know.
Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:13 PM

the Singers club had a policy,of telling singers they should only sing in their own native accent.,If they wanted to be resident or booked at the club
One of the reasons I never bothered with the Singers club.,
mind you I sing in my native accent,but it seemed a bit precious to me.,there were plenty of other good clubs to choose from where people had a more sensible attitude.
I have ran many clubs,and never told singers what they should or shouldnt do ,in fact I booked Ewan and Peggy,and they gave a very good night,were very professional,and drew a big audience.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:18 PM

I agree with the Captain, I also sing, some songs, in my native accent, but I wouldn't if I was told I had to. Precious isn't the word I'm thinking of right now, but it'll do.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:34 PM

Cap'n
I have just replied to you on another thread where you seem quite happy to tell other people what to do.
For the record-I told you to mind your own business.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:46 PM

there were plenty of other good clubs to choose from

That seems to me to be the main point in this story. I don't see why people get so excited about what one group of people decided to do for one particular club.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:06 PM

Hootenanny,
Wasn't round in the fifties - early sixties was my first time (for several things)
It is hotly debated whether The Ballads and Blues was the first - on balance, it seems like it probably was.
Have a (poor) recording of a radio programme made at The Ballads and Blues, if it is of any interest to you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:46 PM

The people who were there seem a bit vague. It's all very confusing to those hicks from the sticks among us, who sung in clubs in the provinces. So, could we have a summing-up from some clever person who was actually there? This incident, the laughing at Long John Baldry that Peggy Seeger found so hilarious. Was it in the Singers Club? Or the Ballads and Blues Club? And was the butt of her wit actually her good friend Long John Baldry? And did the friendship survive the laughter? And how does this relate to the not-singing-foreign-songs policy of Ewan McColl's? Or this policy that was in fact nothing to do with Ewan McColl, but imposed by some quite other people at some club or other? We need to know more.(Well, maybe we don't actually need to, but I would be interested to know the facts, put it that way).

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Jim,

Is that recording one that was made at the Princess Louise by the BBC?
I have a couple of photographs taken during one of those recordings; Peggy & Ewan, Peggy and Guy Carawan and the McEwen brothers Rory & Alex. If you are interested. Who is on the recording by the way?
Re the "hotly debated" matter of being first, the Ballads and Blues definitely pre-dated The Singers Club. However there may have been a club or two elsewhere that pre-dated The B & B. The Topic Club in the north of England, Bradford if I remember correctly may be a contender. Possibly the Gyre and Gimble and The Troubador also.
I suspect that Guest John above wasn't around in the fifties either as there weren't that many clubs (here I speak of London)around at the time good or bad. Which is why the B & B had excellent residents and excellent guests dropping in each Saturday night.
I don't get excited about it, in fact I find it rather amusing but hopefully try to tell what I remember. And incidentally unlike the 1960's, if you can remember the 1950's then you probably were there.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:10 PM

I am such a fan of Peggy's and when she says something I listen (Smith Barney style).
Peggy and Alan Lomax love folk music so much that when something comes down the pike that seems out of kilter, they comment. Although Alan is gone, now, I remember his rants and also the reason for them. He cared! So does Peggy.

It's best to listen to why she reacts because she is one of the most knowledgeable people in folk music around today. She has heard folk music practically in the womb and so she, Pete and Mike have knowledge that you can take to the bank (except folk music doesn't make much money so it'll be a slim account).

Ewan and Peggy made a point out of maintaining a fidelity to the culture from which the singer emanates. This degree of consistency and integrity is a hall-mark of a folklorist
or musicologist who has studied, compared, sifted, collected, and found those who folklorists call "informants" that represent a specific tradition in music.

If, for example, Bo Diddley sang a Mozart aria, y'all might be on the floor too.

I've made it a point to come as close as I can to understanding the songs, styles and techniques of folk music (and I've done some laughable things too) but this reaction by Peggy can be constructive if you see it in the light of learning something about folk traditions. The Cockney guy who sang a style with which he was unfamiliar showed a kind of insensitivity to the song. I'm all for people doing anything they want with music but if they lack an education about it, then they have to take their lumps. I certainly have taken mine plenty of times. When I sang "Tying A Knot in the Devil's Tail" by the great late cowboy poet Gail Gardner, I got the liner notes all wrong which prompted him to say to me, "That guy doesn't know which end of a horse is up", and he was right. Since then, I've had a few horseback riding lessons and an important lesson about having applied and educated integrity to the song you sing.

Frank

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:51 PM

I suspect that Guest John above wasn't around in the fifties either as there weren't that many clubs (here I speak of London)around at the time good or bad.

No. I was born in 1960, only started to go folk clubs around 1980, have never set foot in a London folk club and have been pretty much local (firstly Llandudno area, N Wales and now Cromer area/Norwich) in most of my folk outings.

I speak only as an observer of countless of these "Ewan McColl" threads over the years. For me, it has struck me as particularly puzzling as to why this one person seems to have been singled out for so much stick and I guess if what you say was happening in other places, presumably organised by other people?, in the 50s, the mystery gets deeper.

---
fwiw, my own view on policies is I favour variety. My own "perfect night" when I can find one is a mostly Irish instrumental night but with a couple of well chosen (IMO of course) unaccompanied songs at appropriate points...

OK, I can't legislate for that but out of my choices, I can for example find a very good purely Irish instrumental session in Norwich. I can also find things, eg. "anything goes" that I may find I enjoy, not that I know of one, might dip into an evening purely of unnacompanied song once in a while.

There may also be things, eg. a night of purely contemporary "American style" where it's unlikely I'd get anything out of it but I wouldn't object to it existing.

Opening everything up to say all clubs/sessions should cater for everthing would IMO actually reduce my choices of different things to go to, suit in various degrees my personal preferences, etc. And another thing I don't get is why (at least to me and perhaps wrongly) some of the supposedly more open types seem to be more restrictive (ie. it MUST allow everything considered folk) than some of those who follow their choices (without inflicting thier "rules" on others.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:53 PM

I don't know about Elias McDaniel singing a Mozart Aria but I did hear Mississippi John Hurt sing Gilbert and Sullivan, and it's on vinyl. Didn't Red Ingle too once record Mr Mozart's Turkey Trot?

I would like to point out here to our friends across the pond. Kids of our generation growing up in the UK were brought up listening to American music whether it was pop, country or jazz. My parents bought and listened to Jimmie Rodgers and Carson Robison, my sisters bought Lione Hampton, Louis Jordan etc and we had many British people doing covers of American hits. So for us to sing American songs wasn't un-natural. I was singing a Carter Family song in 1951 but didn't know it's origin. We also saw many American films of all types so we weren't unaware or uneducated about the US. At the risk of starting WW3 I would suggest that we knew more about America and it's music in the 1950's than most Americans knew about ours.
Most people get things wrong when they start out, so what's new?

Meanwhile, have fun and keep singing.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: meself
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:12 PM

Stringsinger -I don't think anyone in this thread has jumped on Peggy S. for her moment of questionable behaviour fifty years ago, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to go to such lengths to rationalize it. And I certainly hope that most of us would have enough respect for Bo Diddley not to laugh in his face if he shared some musical experimentation with us - whatever we thought of it.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:06 AM

Sorry - crossed lines.
The Ballads and Blues was forerunner to The Singers Club; B&B - 1957, Singers - 1961; never been any doubt about that. What is argued is whether Topic Club started before that. There were a couple of folk/jazz evenings prior to the B&B at The Theatre Royal, Stratford, East London. It's all in Ewan's biography, 'Class Act'.
Hootenanny;
The recording I have was, I think, one of two made at the Ballad and Blues by the BBC; if you shut your eyes you can see the interviewer's bow-tie. It sounds very much like the one in your photograph.
Peggy's letter on her behaviour towards the singer can be found on the Living Tradition web-page dated July 2000 - still makes interesting reading.
What needs to be remembered about the 'national' policy was that the British clubs at the time were rapidly filling up with whey-faced young men wearing windcheaters and leather caps, singing 'Blowing In The Wind' in whiney mid-Atlantic accents, usually accompanied by long haired Joanie-clones.
Lomax, Lloyd and MacColl had set out to open up the British repertoire: it succeeded as far as I'm concerned with the introduction of the sea repertoire, the industrial songs, and later people like Harry Boardman and The Critics started to open up regional repertoires. The threat of American acculturation never totally disappeared, but it was kept in check.
The Singers Club was, I'm proud to say, a policy club with specific aims in mind. It is conveniently forgotten that there were clubs with far stricter policies; like the ones were you were virtually body-searched in case you were carrying a musical instrument. Ewan, Peggy and members of the Critics Group were constantly being asked not to sing political songs at some clubs, or modern songs - none of these conditions were ever part of The Singers Club policy. The writing of new songs was encouraged with song-writing classes, and were published in the magazine Peggy edited, The New City Songster. She also ran accompaniment classes and gave a several stunning talks on the subject.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Dazbo
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:28 AM

my first 100