BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 03:36 AM

Don, I have debated NI many times as you say.
I have only ever denigrated the paramiltaries.
I love Ireland and all things Irish, not least the music, but I detest what the paramiltaries have done and the misery they have caused.

If you are going to accuse a fellow Mudcatter of something so base, you should at least have something specific to justify it.
I am no such thing, so you will find nothing.
You should have looked first and accused after.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 01:28 AM

Thanks John.
As I have said so many times in this discussion, BPs are under represented in all other non terror crimes, including sex crimes, and only a tiny minority are involved even in this one.
I might start using an abreviation!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: JohnDun
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:27 PM

Here's a first for me.... below the line

Don, having met and spoken to Keith on many occasions I would certainly not label him a racist, however he does have strong views on several topics.

Putting all that to one side, I come to this 'debate' with an open mind.   My present views are that Muslim Prejudice is rife in the UK and also that prejudice and intolerance of each other's beliefs is the problem.

As a newspaper's primary aim is to sell papers, I try to filter out their sales pitch by reading 'between the lines' using known facts, figures and experiences to make an informed judgement.   As we all do.   The recent posts regarding Muslim men committing 'On-Street Grooming' crimes certainly got me thinking.

The Times researchers have selected their data (to sell newspapers?). 'On-Street Grooming' has only been an offence since 2006 and the figure of 17 cases since 1997 includes 14 occurring in the last 3 years.   3 cases in 9yrs then 14 in 3yrs cannot be right.   On-Street Grooming is also a very narrow subset of crime and does not include Internet Grooming for example, add this to the cases being taken from only 13 cities all with high Muslim populations and value of the statistics becomes dubious.

Newsnight (7th Jan) featured the compiler of the research, Helen Brayley, clearly point out the flaws in the stereotypical media use of her data.

I do not believe the figures quoted by the Times and state the latest Ministry of Justice statistics more clearly show racial percentages of Sexual Offences throughout England & Wales as being

White 82.1%    Black 5.0%    Asian 5.3%    Other 2.1%    Unknown 5.4%

This from a source not selling newspapers.

I do believe other reports I have read of Muslim community leaders and spokes-people admitting there are issues with some Muslim men's attitude to non–Muslim women and I consider this to be a cultural issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM

""For the record, I have never denigrated any race or religion.
Not in this forum.
Not ever.
And Don will not provide any examples, because there are none.""

Easily proven.

All anyone need do is read your posts on this thread, and re-open the many Northern Irish threads in which you played just as prominent a role.

I don't even need to repeat them. Anyone can PM Ard or Sweeney and ask them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM

""I also cited the conviction statistics.
And, they were not just people, but recognised, eminent authorities worthy of the term "expert witness."""

You yourself are insistent upon there having been only the seventeen cases during a thirteen year period, resulting in the conviction of 50 Pakistani Muslims (and six others).

This is an average of three defendants per case at nine months average between cases, over a thirteen year period.

Hardly the kind of figures which produce evidence of a statistically significant trend.

I say that it defies logic to assume that nobody but these few have picked girls on the street in thirteen years, and if that has happened those others have not attracted the attention of a Media which, like yourself, is intent upon proving Islam to be an evil religion, and not interested in anything which does not support that intent.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 05:50 PM

For the record, I have never denigrated any race or religion.
Not in this forum.
Not ever.
And Don will not provide any examples, because there are none.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 05:39 PM

""What makes these gangs different, is that they target non Muslims.""

You just don't get it do you Ake?

They target what they find in the street. It happens that Asian (N.B. Asian, not Muslim, since many Muslims are either white or black) girls are not prominent in that grouping.

White Muslims would include some Croatian, Afghan, Iranian, Turkish etc.
Black Muslims would include not only many of African origin, but also many black Americans.

It is virtually impossible to target non Muslim girls, as one cannot know who they are, unless they are in Muslim dress.

Incidentally, the crime of grooming is dependent upon provable sexual intent. Otherwise they are just offering a lift, or a drink, or whatever. It becomes trafficking when (and not until) the victim is passed on to others for sex.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 05:15 PM

""I do not understand why those two, and Don, get so angry and nasty.

It should be just folk, with a love the same songs, having a friendly banter.""

I have answered the accusation of anger several times, and your contention is no more true for having repeated it multiple times.

A love of the same music?

1. What has that to do with your record of years of denigration of other races and religions (Irish Catholics and Republicans for example), and lately Pakistani Muslims?

It's like you have a psychological need to feel superior to people who don't share your views.

2. How often do we see posts from you above the BS line?

Don't presume to know what music I like, since you don't bother reading posts on subjects we are discussing, let alone anything in the music section.

I'm sorry to be the harbinger of bad news, but you don't get to decide what we will or will not discuss.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 04:47 PM

The past few posts were brought to you by The Brotherhood of Chaos.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 04:29 PM

lol

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 04:26 PM

Not sure about the sabres but I can smell horse shit...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 04:06 PM

The cavalry--I bet they`re armed with sabers.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 04:01 PM

Here comes the cavalry!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 03:37 PM

Is it nor about time for Godwin's Rule yet? Maybe there have been no specific mention of Nazis yet but there now the political correctness gone mad card has been played, it won't be long...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:52 AM

I used the term British Pakistanis for a vey long time before switching to the abreviation.
Are you so desparate to hang a racist label?
Just trying to save time and keep my posts shorter.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:43 AM

""No one has just looked at BP gang crime and said "BP gangs are doing these BP gang crimes."
We are saying "why are BP gangs and no one else doing these crimes?""

And none of the rest of us are at pains to dehumanise British Pakistanis by calling them BPs, a technique previously used by some very nasty racists.

Still it does enable you to enter a spurious claim that you are trying to keep your posts short.

However, long is better if it leads to more cogent argument. You might like to give some consideration to that point.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:34 AM

""Can we agree to put no more than two points at a time to each other please?""

If you are too lazy, or too arrogant, to read our posts and respond to them, why should we be expected to show you the courtesy you demand?

Come to that, if you don't read the posts why should your offerings receive any credence at all?

Every single utterance from you has been answered multiple times, so if you won't join in proper discussion just what are you doing here?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:31 AM

Keith continues to ignore what I've said as he has no answer.

So He makes shit up instead, and repeats the same old assertions again and again.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:21 AM

Don.

the Times published its own survey into the ethnicity of those convicted of on-street grooming. It found that over the past 13 years there had been 17 court prosecutions by northern and Midlands police forces involving such crimes.

Of the 56 people found guilty, three were white and 53 were Asian.
Detective Chief Inspector Alan Edwards said: "To stop this type of
crime you need to start talking about it, but everyone's been too
scared to address the ethnicity factor.

"No one wants to stand up and say that Pakistani guys in some parts of the country are recruiting young white girls and passing them around their relatives for sex, but we need to stop being worried about the racial complication."
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/73543,news-comment,news-politics,muslims-back-jack-straw-on-pakistani-rape-gangs

And, I offer the Detective Chief Inspector as yet another expert witness.

Lox, Your closed mind will not allow you to be influenced by the considered, informed opinions of people with a far greater knowledge than us.
I have supplied ample evidence for the conjecture.
It was wasted on you, but others may have found it illuminating.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:29 AM

"I also cited the conviction statistics."

Keith, again, try to read my whole posts before you answer it.

I de3alt with that comprehensively.

"And, they were not just people, but recognised, eminent authorities worthy of the term "expert witness.""

Your hypothesis is a psychological/anthropological one. Your "experts" are politicians.

They are not qualified to comment on matters of psychology, or annthropology, as they have never done any research into those subjects in relation to Pakistanis and sex crimes.

There is in fact NO research anywhere, which means there are NO expert witnesses.



"You have no reasons, except a certainty that all minorities are above all criticism,"

You're making shit up again keith.

"Only Western culture may ever be criticised."

Making shit up.

"You respond like a religious fundamentalist whose core beliefs are challenged."

No mate, I challenged YOUR hypothesis, and you are responding by making shit up about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:19 AM

""I do not dispute your figure for grooming.
We are only discussing street grooming by gangs.
The have only been these 17 cases.""

Egregious bullshit.

Seventeen cases have hit the headlines, involving Pakistani gangs, in an area where there happens to be a large number of Pakistani residents.

These seventeen cases took place over a thirteen year period, but have been lumped together by the Media, assisted by a couple of failed politicians who are not noted for thinking before they speak.

This conglomerate of criminal acts, widely spaced both in distance and time (according to your own posts), have been seized upon with unholy glee in an attempt to classify all Pakistani Muslims as potential paedophile rapists.

No anger or aggression in my posts, merely frustration at the difficulty of getting the concept of balanced rationality into a closed and biased mind.

You have no idea whether there have been other gangs street grooming underage girls, but it suits your agenda to state categorically that there have not.

The reason why I am able to say that you do not know, is that this particular crime is not recorded separately, but under the heading of "Grooming".

I have checked the police website for Derbyshire, and it gives no specifics.

The only real fact that you do know is that these seventeen cases did occur, because somebody decided that they were somehow linked, and representative of a trend.

Go ahead and believe that there are no white gangs picking up underage girls in the street if you are daft enough, but don't try selling that crap as fact.

We both know it isn't.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 09:48 AM

"The only evidence you have provided is the opinion of 5 people who also "think" that British Pakistani culture has contributed to these crimes."
No.
I also cited the conviction statistics.
And, they were not just people, but recognised, eminent authorities worthy of the term "expert witness."

When I first heard of this, I did not assume a cultural dimension.
Why would I?
That is the default position, as with monkeys behind the moon.

But you do not post long, multiple, passionate posts to defend the default position.
Only if you have good reason to believe that no alternative is possible.

You have no reasons, except a certainty that all minorities are above all criticism, except sometimes Jews.
Only Western culture may ever be criticised.
You respond like a religious fundamentalist whose core beliefs are challenged.
Not like someone just holding a default position.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:56 AM

Keith,

You need to learn how evidence and hypotheses work.

I cannot prove that there ISN'T a monkey hiding behind the moon.

But I don't have to.

If somebody wishes to assert there IS one, then it is their responsibility to find the evidence.

In the absence of evidence, there is no reason for me to believe there is one.

If someone believes there is a monkey behind the moon, then it it nonsensical for them to insist that I prove there isn't one.

Its their hypothesis, they nee to show why they believe it to be true, and then they need to subject their evidence to analysis to see if it proves what they think is true or not.


You THINK that British Pakistani culture has by its very nature contributed to the crimes committed by a gang of kidnappers and child abusers.

You need to say why you think that.

You need to provide evidence of your claim.

The only evidence you have provided is the opinion of 5 people who also "think" that British Pakistani culture has contributed to these crimes.


That isn't evidence, its just people agreeiung with you.

Yasmin Alibhai Brown claims to have provided some evidence, the apparent testimony of a man who allegedly participated in these crimes.

But upon analysis, we find that there is something wrong with this evidence.

We oly have Yasmin Alibhai browns word that he did what he said he did, and there are problems with her account.

These have been explained above.

That evidence is unreliable until the inconsistencies pounted out are explained.

The other information that you brandish as evidence is the stats - that in these particular crimes, the criminals were mainly pakistani.

But this statistic is meaningless.

It is the same as saying that in crimes committed by the italian Mafia, all the criminals were italian, and therefore Italian culture predisposes italians to organized crime.

It is like saying that as most liverpool supporters in the Kop at anfield are Englishl, therefore being from England culturally predisposes people to support Liverpool.

Your stats show that in Pakistani Gangs, the majority of crimes were committed by Pakistanis.

And in addition to that, not all the gang members in the Pakistani Gangs were Pakistani!

So that evidence doesn't stand the test of analysis either.


And that isn't even the end of it, because in eddition to your selective number crunching, you have also deliberately left out a whole range of unconsidered variables that could also be responsible for these guys doing what they did.

And finally, you havebnt't talen the time to analyze what is actually different about these crimes.

The only thing that distinguishes these crimes from other trafficking crimes is the method of capture.

And the method of capture, chatting girls up on the street and giving them lifts, is culturally a western passtime, not a culturally Pakistani passtime.


So to conclude, in short,

First comes the hypothesis, then comes the analysis.

Upon analysis, it is clear that the hypothesis is unsupported.


All that is left is a puff of thin air and keiths apparent bloody minded determination to slander pakistanis.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:31 AM

Maybe you two could PM each other????

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 07:59 AM

Evidence for my opinion just given.
I will restate it.
The coniction statistics and the informed opinions of expert witnesses.
Your evidence?
You forgot to post it!
Not a lie.
Not making it up.
You have posted no evidence at all.
Just negative, non contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 07:55 AM

"So your conviction that there is no cultural dimension is not based on any evidence at all!"

Why do you have to keep making shit up?

Is it really that hard for you to actually exist in realty and actually respond to my points?

No Keith.

Try Again.


There is no real evidence to supoport your hypothesis.


Thats it.


First comes the hypothesis, then comes the analysis.

Upon analysis, it is clear that the hypothesis is unsupported.


Got it yet?


Somehow I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 07:47 AM

So your conviction that there is no cultural dimension is not based on any evidence at all!
My suggestion that there is, is soundly based on the evidence of a number of expert witnesses, and the history of convictions.

You claim to be able to see reasons to dismiss the evidence provided by all those eminent, knowledgeable people with first hand experience.

Another non contribution.
You provide nothing.
You just spout your ideological dogma and ignore everything put in front of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 07:31 AM

Keith,

I deal in meaningful statements.

My position is that there is no real evidence or supportable argument to support your hypothesis.

A scientist will tell you that anything is possible, but some things are more probable than others.

It is possible that Moslems come from Mars, but the absence of evidence makes it improbable.

Saying "I cannot be certain" that Moslems don't come from mars does not make it a reasonable suggestion.

Likewise, saying that I can't be certain that your hypothesis is wrong is also meaningless.

So I stick with the observation that your hypothesis lacks proper evidence, except for the personal feelings of 3 politicians, a policeman and a journalist, whose views are disagreed with other politicians and community representatives, both secular and religious.

None of the above is testimony, it is just opinion, and all on a subject (cultural influences on mental health) that would require proper scientific research and that would still probably be without any firm conclusions.

I also stick to my view that the arguments abnd suggestions of these politicians are flawed and unrealistic.

Whether I am certain or not is of no significance to anyone. My observations on the soundness of the hypothesis you share with straw etc are significant.

That hypothesis is unsound and unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 05:08 AM

WELL SAID LIZZIE - you're spot on and I applaude you for it.

Quote from the BBC website:

"State multiculturalism has failed", says David Cameron

Now, following on Germany's PM, ours is openly saying it too.

It's mainly in regard to the tenets of modern Islamic fundamentalism. Perhaps the light is even dawning in the corridors of power and that 'turning a blind eye', then 'the other cheek' doesn't actually work . . . duh!

Perhaps it's also designed to engage the 'silent', peaceful majority of Muslims to actually get involved to stop the damage to society and to their own religion and how it's regarded by many now. How long before 'many' becomes 'most'?

Just to head off the 'you're a racist lobby'. In my view, anybody who wants to work, settle and live in peace WITH us, is welcome in my Britain.

But I'll not stand back and give it to people who are fanatically trying to destroy both it and my lifestyle.

This is why I started this thread, I don't think the British public are the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 04:44 AM

Islam, in my opinion, has a great many deep problems, caused by the many sick and dangerous individuals within it, many of whom have been almost brainwashed since birth to hate, hate, HATE.

It can only be cured by the truly peaceful and good Muslims themselves finally standing up TOGETHER and saying "ENOUGH! This is NOT being done in my/our names any longer!"

Many will not do that because they are frightened/terrified of the repercussions...and that in itself shows just how bad the evil is inside what is purported to be a religion of peace and love.

Just as the Roman Catholic Church is now blowing apart, as Truth starts to finally surface, so must Islam also blow itself apart, to rid itself of the evil that has overtaken it for far too long.

Quite frankly I'm sick to death of people being called 'racist' if they dare to stand up and say "You know what, this is so wrong!"....and it's that shocking attitude which has led us to the state the world is now in...

Wafa Sultan is one of the few Arab women who's had the guts to take a stand against the women haters, the bullies, the thugs and tyrants of Islam...and she now lives her life in the USA in hiding because of it, because those men know that she speaks the truth and is therefore a huge danger to them all.

I sometimes think that many do not truly understand the depth of evil that runs through Islam at the moment, or if they do, then they are too fucking scared to say so...

Personally, I'd like to see any crazed fundamentalist, whose sole purpose in life is to kill others or wreak terrible emotional or physical damage upon them, put up against a wall and shot.

I do not care from which religion those fundamentalists come, nor what the colour of the skin is either.

Evil is as Evil does...and this fuckingly troubled world right now is in the grip of some pretty Evil Folk who don't give a rat's arse for anyone or anything other than their own evil, cruel and bullying agendas.

We, The Good Men/Women and True have been way too silent for way too long, bullied into submission and silence by those who have decreed that no-one has the right to be judgemental or have an opinion, and if anyone DARES to do either, then they are hounded for being nothing more than right wing racists...

That idea, that principle, has allowed the Gates of Hell to swing wide open.....

It is way past time for the Good and True to close those gates, forever.

This world has changed beyond recognition. We now live in an Age of Suspicion at every turn, because we have allowed all of this shite to happen in the name of bloody 'political correctness'.

We have done so at our peril.

Only love can drive out hate.
But also, only truth can drive out lies.
Only Goodness can drive out Evil.

The choice belongs to the whole of Mankind, no matter what religion, what creed, what colour or background.

It's a simple and stark choice, and it's staring us all right in the face, challenging us as never before.

Whether we take up that challenge, time will tell...but I tell you what, if we don't then the world as I once knew it is going to hell on a handcart, and taking most of us with it, because the longer we take to wake up to Evil, the deeper this Evil will penetrate into all our socieities.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 03:20 AM

Sometimes I am glad to be wrong.
You are not certain there is no issue.
It is not just ideological dogma.
You think that there is no issue, from looking at the evidence.
Please state that.
It is the reciprocal of my position.

You ask me to share the evidence I base my opinion on.
It is the informed opinion of expert witnesses, some of which I have posted, and the hard evidence of conviction statistics.

Will you BRIEFLY restate your evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 08:16 PM

"I compare the evidence and believe that there is probably an issue."

Would you mind sharing it so that we can do some comparing too?

Or are you making that up too?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 08:14 PM

No Ake,

The media sells white women all over the world as sex objects.

Hollywood moviess do it, the sun does it, internet porn does it, sex mags do it, the mafia do it, berlusconi does it, etc etc.

White women have been defined as commodities and as sex objects long before British Pakistanis had the idea.

But Ake never complained about it until those nsty dirty Moslems, who refuse to integrate in Glasgow (according to his goan mate) started doing it.

I see you paid the video no heed.

Disengage brain and return to manra 'its the "liberals" what done it' 'Moslems think they're better than us' etc ...

Keith says,

"You "know" that there is not, and claim to find flaws in everything said against that.
You simply discard the opinions of all those good people."

Keith states with absolute certainty what I "know" ... how he nows this is of course a mystery. as I do not claim to have any received knowledge, unlike this example of his apparently received knowledge.

Making shit up again in the absence of an intelligent or evidentially supported argument.

He aappears to have bedome a stuck record, or is he more like a malfunctioning bit of software, or a perpetual feedback loop, repeating the same lie over and over again.


Keith,

Unlike you, I read the posts you provided thoroughly and then I thought aboout them, scrutinized thgem intelligently, and responded to each of your points and to the points made by your 'experts'.

As you would expect from a sreious debater, I looked for evidence (the stuff you need to support a hypothesis) and I looked for inconsistencies and inaccuracies (the stuff that makes a hypothesis unreliable).

I found no evidence, but I found several inconsistencies.


You haven't even bothered to read the posts you allegedly disagree with (how would you know?), and it seems you haven't even properly read the articles you posted.

You certainly haven't attempted any explanation of the flaws I have pointed out.

All you have is outrage that i am not more humble in the face of my feudal masters, and your standard last resort of making shit up.

You are fixated on your hypothesis and you can't handle it that it doesn't stand up, and you can't handle it that you have no arguments or evidence left.

I'm starting to think that te real reson for you making shit up is that you are having a childish sulk.


My position, repeated many times now, is that this hypothesis is only one of many and it is not reliable.


Prove that my reasons for doubting your hypothesis are wrong ... please ...

... but stop behaving like a 5 year old.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 04:14 PM

Pakistani Muslims target white children, because mainly white women pose for sex mags.

Hmmm..... Oh well, I suppose we are wasting our time debating the issue....I better tell Mr Straw, Mrs Cryer and all the rest.

Bet they'll be kicking themselves for not thinking of that.

So simple really, just disengage brain and problem solved!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 02:34 PM

No.
I acknowledge that there is a debate.
If your insight is based on having Muslim neighbours for a while, I am more informed than you are.
But I do not pontificate about it.
I compare the evidence and believe that there is probably an issue.
You "know" that there is not, and claim to find flaws in everything said against that.
You simply discard the opinions of all those good people.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM

"You are certain there is no issue.
You just know."

And now you are back to making shit up.

Keith,

YOU are the only one advancing a hypothesis.

You are fighting tooth and nail for it.


And you are telling me that I am getting above my station for daring to disagree with the right honourable members.


but I bet you'll be back to fight for it before the night is through.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 01:05 PM

I take heed of Vaz and others.
I do not just rubbish him and say I have found flaws.
You are certain there is no issue.
You just know.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 12:39 PM

In addition, without going hunting for many similar comments of this nature fromKeith Vaz,

I wonder why Keith is so one sided in his reporting of politicians who represent Pakistani voters.

(Keith Vaz incidentally represents the ward where I used to live)

(from keiths article)

"Keith Vaz, Labour chairman of the home affairs select committee, said it was wrong to stereotype a whole community and a proper inquiry was needed."

Should keith not doff his hat to Keith Vaz and apologize for doubting his authourity?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:52 AM

"You are entitled to your opinion, but we have to decide what your opinion is worth."

Again, you are sidestepping my arguments.

Strange that you should spen so much time involved in a debate, yet refuse to engage in it or even to read the arguments of the person you are debating with.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM

If I had any hair left I`d pull it out!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM

I think that answers Als question very nicely too.

We should indeed be ble to discuss these issues openly.

Telling ordinary mortals that they shouldn't be so egotistical as to question the opinion of a politician is in direct conflict with that view.

Perhaps when Keith has finished Proving that Pakistanis are culturally inlined to despise and abuse white girls, and when he has finished telling me to shut up and accept the word of my superiors, he can go and get his brown sirt out of his cupboard.

Or perhaps he only mistakenly gave the impression that I should bow to authourity and be suspicious of Pakistani culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:47 AM

You are entitled to your opinion, but we have to decide what your opinion is worth.
Someone else, with slightly more knowledge than you, who thinks there IS an issue.

A retired Lancashire detective has backed Jack Straw for speaking out over the sexual exploitation of young white girls by men of Pakistani origin.

Blackburn Labour MP Mr Straw suggested some white girls were seen as easy targets for sexual grooming.

Former Det Supt Mick Gradwell said it was an issue that had been clear for many years and needed to be addressed.

He said investigations into the sexual exploitation of children had suffered because of political sensitivity.

"I know that police officers know what they're saying is true, but they're not coming out and saying it because you can't feel comfortable, because of allegations of institutional racism, that you can come out and say that a culture or a race is suspected of this sort of crime.

"If there were people who frequented a particular public house, who were going out and doing things, you would target that particular trend," he said.

"There is without doubt a trend, as Mr Straw says, in a small number of men of Pakistani origin, who regard young, white girls as easy meat."

Mr Gradwell, who retired from Lancashire Constabulary in 2009, said he hoped the former home secretary's comments would lead to a reduction in these sorts of crimes.

"What will be interesting is if, as a result on the debate on Mr Straw's comments, is whether first of all these offences reduce, and secondly whether actually information comes forward to detect some previously undetected offences.

"If crimes do reduce, it has been worthwhile saying it.

"It's difficult to talk about. Really it's only somebody like Jack Straw, a former home secretary who has represented Blackburn, a diverse community, for 31 years, who could come out and say what he said."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12167131

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:34 AM

Ake moans about freedom of Speech, yet here we have Keith suggesting that I amn arrogant for daring to question the opinion of a politician.

Perhaps I should Doff my hat to the noble lord as he passes by in his carriage too?

This gets more and more bizarre the deeper Keith digs in.

Its ok keith, we aren't in the trenches anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:31 AM

"I am pointing out the arrogant egotism, verging on megalomania, of you telling us you can see flaws in their assertions that are invisible to mere mortals, so that we should dismiss all their testimony in favour of yours. "

Keith, I have offered no testimony.

There is nothing arrogant or egotistical about questioning a hypothesis.

If there are answers to the inconsistencies that I have highlighted, then someone is at liberty to provide them.

As for invisible flaws, they are only invisible to you because you can't be bothered to read them.

Megalomania?

You maen like you suggesting I should Know my place and not dare to question your point of view or the point of view of politicians that share your point of view?

three politicians and a journalist have expressed a point of view - THATS IT.

Are you suggesting that questioning politicians is "megalomaniac"?

thats what I've done. I've questioned their views.

Noone has provided satisfactory answers.

Least of all you.

Perhaps you could get a job as Lord Ahmeds bodyguard ... or better yet, his chauffeur.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:18 AM

"He is not an authourity on the sexual behaviour of pakistani gansters any more than you or I."

I would say that he IS more of an authority than you or I.
I would like to know why you think he is not.

Where am I going?
Your position has been that there is no significant issue of specifically BP gangs grooming and abusing young girls.
All these eminent, respected, intelligent and knowledgeable people, speaking from their own first hand experience, say that there is.

I am pointing out the arrogant egotism, verging on megalomania, of you telling us you can see flaws in their assertions that are invisible to mere mortals, so that we should dismiss all their testimony in favour of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:00 AM

Show me anywhere that anyone has ever consulted antone else on the "issue" of Pakistanis being culturally predisposed to the abduction and abuse of young whit girls?

He is not an authourity on the sexual behaviour of pakistani gansters any more than you or I.

Where the hell you think you are going with this line of argument I have no idea, but you are likely to make a right fool of yourself if you try to suggest that being a Pakistani politician that that somehow gives him deep indight into the minds of Traffickers and child abusers.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM

He does not do research.
He is an authority.
How many heads of state have consulted you on cultural issues Lox?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 10:34 AM

"If you were to provide me with some research he had done on this issue then that would be useful."

That is of course verified and accredited research, not the kind that you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 10:32 AM

"don't you know who I am"? was never a succesful tactic in any debate.

"Don't you know who he is" is equally meaningless.

If you were to provide me with some research he had done on this issue then that would be useful.

Just saying "Lord Ahmed thinks so and he is Pakistani so he must be right" is so facile and weak an approach as to be laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 10:29 AM

Again Keith,

You are misusing the word testimony.

He is neither witness to these crimes,nor an expert scientific or psychiatric witness qualified to comment on the motivations of these criminals.

And still you have no evidence or argument.