BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:42 AM

”Troll alert. As ever.“

When does he ever do anything else, Steve. At least he seems to be eschewing the personal insults at the moment (‘poor loser’ really doesn’t even register on the Richter-Scale of Abuse AFAIC).

It just strikes me as very strange that someone who celebrates the Conservative majority with posts like, ”It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!”, is so concerned with what Labour might or might not have done if they were in power right now. FWIW, and from a pragmatic POV, I agree with him, but ‘what Labour would have done‘ is of absolutely no consequence, they have no power - not even as an opposition, because their numbers in parliament are insufficient for there to be any possibility of defeating the government in a vote - so dragging that red-herring out at every available opportunity is pointless, and not even worthy of a response.

When he’s not quoting ‘Seaman’ Staines, or deceitfully C&P-ing pieces without accreditation in order to make it look like his own words, he’s a real lightweight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:55 AM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,   
Britain is now basically ruled over by a trio of ruthless sickos - Johnson the Brainless, 'Mad Maggie Patel' and the unelected Dom Scummings - they even cast aside any of they own collegues who don't measure DOWN to their own level like sacrificed chess-pieces   - nobody else has a say in what happens in today's Crisis Britan - hence the trail of devastation, tardiness and mistakes in tackling the crisis
What better tactic than to focus the attention on people outside this 'Circle of Friends'
The opinions of medical experts who are suggesting heads have to roll and the culprits having to be made answerable, or those front line "moaners" demanding decent protective equipment plastic bags some of them have been forced to wear - all marginalised with pie-in-the-sky promises instead of the or just simply ignored
Let' talk about Labour instead - just like "It was the last Labour Government wot dunnit
Even the Tories have abandoned the pretense of principles with a series of putsches and one particular 'Night of the Long Knives'
Pity Brecht isn't still around to write a follow-up to 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui'
Dangerous days on all fronts
The only people to be discussing here is The Twisted Trio
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM

Are my eyes deceiving me Baccie or are you giving the individual "The fresh air of publicity" :-)
It gets to the best if you take your eyes off the ball
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 03:06 AM

Well yes, Jim - as I said in my post of 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM, it’s diversionary horse-shit and barely worth a response. I won’t be wasting any more Mudcat server-space, or my own time, Responding to or even thinking about his childish, lightweight diversion-tactics.

Over and out (unless or until something worthwhile comes up).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

It's just been announced that the helpline for essential Covit workers that was opened again this morning closed within a couple of hours due to being unable to respond to requests
The only few left are in Scotland
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 09:59 AM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.

Nah, Bonz, this is even better than Homeopathy:


Cristina Cuomo revealed that she took Clorox baths and used vitamin drips, among other things, to try to speed up her recovery.

Cuomo also detailed how she took bleach baths, adding "½ cup ONLY of Clorox" to her regular baths to help "combat the radiation and metals in my system and oxygenate it."

"We want to neutralize heavy metals because they slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells, which is our energy field, and we need a good flow of energy," she wrote.

See Also:

https://thepuristonline.com/2020/04/the-cuomos-corona-protocol-week-3/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:15 PM

So at today's press conference Stephen Powis (National Medical Director of NHS England) was asked directly what questions Cummings asked at SAGE meetings, and responded by saying how had a lot of eminent scientists on it. But did not mention Cummings.

So the follow up question again asked about Cumming's questions, and again he avoided even mentioning Cummings.


I m sure he was doing as advised, but he has just demonstrated that SAGE is not politically independent. And in doing so, he has undermined any claim that the government is making to following the best scientific advice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM

Apparently a vicar who injected himself with Domestos has died. His family are sueing Trump for a bleach of the priest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,

NOPE!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Apparently a vicar who .....

Never set any store on information that starts with "Apparently".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:01 PM

Sorry Dave. I didn't read it properly first time.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:18 PM

The old ones are the best! :-) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:34 PM

's ok, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:19 AM

Does anyone else get fed up of this? I know the Americans do although it beats my why they come on a UK politics thread.

Basically, someone criticises the Tories. The response is Labour would do no better. It is pointed out that Labour have not been in power for 10 years. Antisemitism rears its head. Accusations of racism start to fly. Someone tries to make a sensible point. Insults and propaganda abound. The thread is closed.

Well, I have a radical new idea. From today, for two weeks, I am taking myself out of politics. This is not capitulation. The wreckers have not won. If we all (you know who you are) withdraw for a while, the wreckers have nothing to wreck. The cause of all the trouble becomes obvious. And at least we get a couple of weeks peace :-)

Who's with me?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM

" The wreckers have not won"
If ou do they have Dave - what they want is not to have what is happening discussed
All the subjects you mention can and should be discussed - it's up to those who care about them to make sure rationally - they are never going to be dalt with in friendly manner - that's the nature of pre-Brexit/Trump Britain and America
Stop discussing them and you fall behind what's happening daily
It's a choice for the individual, of course
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

Jesus fucking wept! It’s like watching ‘Groundhog Day’, but without the comedy!

Discussion is fine, it’s what we come here for isn’t it? But insults and provocation, and reacting to insults and provocation are not discussion. When one individual posts insulting and provocative stuff - name calling, ‘Whataboutery’, comparing black, overweight Labour politicians to a hippopotamus, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera - the only worthwhile answer is to ignore the post. If you react, you lower yourself to the level of the person who insults and tries to provoke you - you’re not ‘dealing with the problem’, you’re becoming part of the problem.

When YKW starts his Insulting and provocative nonsense, for fuck’s sake do the intelligent thing, and ignore him. If you don’t react, if you don’t join in with his idiocy, guess what - you can’t legitimately be be blamed!

It’s easy - I’ve done it for some time now - and believe me, it’s truly liberating!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:16 AM

Sorry, bastard HTML, Buggered the underlining, but the message is still clear.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:37 AM

If we are ever are going to refer to him, let's use his name. I'm sick of stuff like "usual suspects" or "cabal" or "old men" that tends to put us into "is it I, Lord?" mode.   We are talking about IAINS. Yep, the less we mention him the better. But let's always use his name. Over and out...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM

dave - i was talking to my wife yesterday and telling her about the endless squabbles, arguments, accusations and trolling on here. 'why do you go on then?' tricky question. i think i have tried in various ways to have a friendly discussion about politics (i'm just reminded of a Father Ted episode that begins with Ted dreaming about having a learned theological discussion with a couple of other intelligent and amusing priests- then he wakes up and finds he's still with Jack and Dougal and Mrs Doyle) anyway - i would like to give your idea a go . Something keeps drawing me back to this car crash. but i will try....

but before i do i would like to know if someone was to open a thread in another poster's name would that constitute good reason to ban them from the site? or is this fraud acceptable on Mudcat? if so, why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

Works - can’t be done, the BS section is closed to non-members, so posting as, for instance, ‘GUEST: Backwoodsman’ is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.

i don't think we have ever managed to have a reasonable discussion on here about eg 'different directions on the left and how best to pursue more progressive politics' -it's not a lot to ask but it's been impossible. ian has bored and insulted his way through everything and has proven to have more energy than the rest of us. i've tried various tactics - including ignoring him as we all have - but we can't get rid of him and the mods clearly have no wish to. i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that adverts have started to appear within the threads? in itself another reason to go - but where to?

sorry - i'm not doing a very good job of staying off this thread eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:06 AM

hi BWM -a thread appeared the other day in a name i used to have as Guest: petecockermouth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM

Yes, I know, but it was ‘above the salt’ in the Music section, wasn’t it? GUEST: postings are permitted there, but not in BS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

PM sent, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.    


If you are going to make accusations best you provide the eveidence as well. Otherweise what does that make you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

This gets to a stalemate
Evidence is supplied, ignored and demanded again - and so ad-infinitum
That we are losing people, some of them long term, is evidence enough
Let's move on in the hope the discussion gets more important than the chess game

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

My very favourite quote from Blazing Saddles was "Blow it out yo' ass, Howard." I'm thinking of adopting it but dropping the "Howard..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business

Former MPs such as Hammond are in no position to demand anything. No one is going to take a blind bit of notice of a has been.

a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
A gnat against an elephant I would say, a minnow versus a whale.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 12:50 PM

”Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not “

Funny thing, that word ‘demand’. The BBC didn’t describe it as a ‘demand’, their choice of word was ‘urged’, which puts a different complexion on things, to my way of thinking. We are all free to ‘urge’ the government to take a course of action but, of course, the government is under no compunction to do as we ‘urge’.

Hammond’s time was over at the last GE - he can ‘urge’ or ‘demand’ until he’s blue in the face, but his opinion has no more weight than anyone else’s. And he’s quite simply wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 02:05 PM

Hammond's influence has waned dramatically since he and 20 other Torys MPs were sacked from the party for sabotaging the Government Brexit plans prior to the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 03:29 PM

I read the report - in the Times, I think
They gave the impressiion that Hammond was acting on behalf of somebody
The increase on the clampdown was on The BBC news - bringing them together was mine own work

Innt great to see the right tearing each other's throat's out = just the thing to see us through a crisis and at least it keeps the parasitic incompetents off our backs for a while
What next, I wonder another 'Night o the Long Knives' to rid the party of dissidents
IT WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST TIME

And doesn't it show how much more civilised and democratic Labour is in comparison?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

It seems not all is as clear-cut as some would have us believe on the matter oe easing restrictions
Rabid Raab and his muppets have been planning for some now to do this in respone to pressure from big business
That it's still a goer in the present circumstances has elicited a statement from the Health boss that any attempts to do so will revers any improvement on the Covit 19 front   

Nice to hear some good news on the radio this morning
Thanks to the lock-down, the atmosphere is showing eigns of cleaning up and wild-life all over the planet is able to return to its natural habitat
The beach which was used for filming the Leonardo DiCaprio film in Maya Bay, off the coast of Thailand, which was closed because of over- tourism, is now full of basking sharks (probably on holiday from Westminster and Washington)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

A second wave would be inevitable with the current levels of positive tests and without an extremely robust test and trace system in place. It should not be forgotten that every infection in every country started from a single infected person, or a very small number of infected people. So if you open up and there is a single person capable of infecting others you have a second wave on your hands unless you can detect, trace and isolate everyone who is a carrier. No amount of optimism gets round that. "Lock down" is an attempt to starve the virus out of existence, so opening before you have ensured that you can detect any reoccurrence even in asymptomatic carriers rapidly and effectively is extremely short sighted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM

With distinct uncertainty as to whether having been infected with covid-19 gives immunity relaxing lockdown will pruoduce a further wave of infection. Herd immunity would seem to be a myth. It raises questions as to the efficacy of lockdown and its relaxation. Those that are vulnerable will die if infected. This will remain true until such time as a cure is produced. The only function of lockdown would appear to be keeping infection tomanageable levels. But continued lockdown will destroy the economy and the food chain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:04 AM

Britain has been claiming it has been acting on the advice of "experts" - it they didn't mention that they were referring to financial experts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:32 AM

It is worth remembering, though it all seems a long time ago now, that Professor Mitford, the usual economist Brexiteers supporters referenced, was quite prepared for the farming market within the UK to go to the wall in what he saw as the wider interests.   All the relevant papers can be found on Economists for Free Trade; I did read many of them at the time but can't be othered to do so again at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM

Experts only give guidance, government makes decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM

opposing views of experts

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:58 AM

It is rarely difficult to find two experts of differing opinion, whatever the topic. At the minimum you need to consider how many experts side with one opinion or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:10 AM

And when experts differ in opinion, there is nothing to say that the opinion of the majority of the experts is the correct one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:24 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?

I agree the majority view is not always right.

In science, when the minority has evidence of a high enough standard, it will win. Here we have no such evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:25 AM

"And when experts differ in opinion,"
Since this pandemic started this has not happened - the confusion has been deliberately created elsewhere - particular by politicians covering up their blunders
Typical confusion by Johnson has just been shown on the news by Johnson, who has stated quite clearly that the Crsis is at its highest point so far and there can me no question of there being a relaxation
His merry morons seem to be either sending out their own message or secretly plotting to follow the money-makers behind his back
What the **** is the public expected to do - read between the lines
It's fairly obvious to me that Party loyalty is streets ahead of general welfare in this Donkey Derby
Maybe it's time to leaver the experts to decide and cut out the self-interested middle-men
That can never be a question of sacrificing lives for economic interests - not ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:51 AM

The science has yet to provide clear answers, hence the differing views.
Only hindsight will prove what path is the correct one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?
I agree the majority view is not always right.

I have never claimed that the electorate were either scientists, or experts. The 17.4 million were, however, the majority of those who were both entitled to vote, and chose to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM

My comment was, obviously I hope, tongue in cheek, Nigel. However, there is a definite similarity between the experts in virus transmission and the voters in Brexit: each is/was drawing on their views and experience, and each is/was working on incomplete knowledge, and each is/was having to make predictions about an uncertain future.

But I could not resist your comment that the majority is not always right. Which is, of course, true. Especially when it comes to predicting the future,

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM

Nice one - we leave it to the politicians and wait to count the dead to see who is right
Don't suppose there are many wo could live with that - literally
IT'S ALL HAPPENING NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:20 AM

I have been looking for what SAGE documents I can find. This the latest I have found so far (16th March)

This recommendation caught my eye (emphasis is mine)


4. It was agreed that a policy of alternating between periods of more and less strict social distancing measures could plausibly be effective at keeping the number of critical care cases within capacity. These would need to be in place for at least most of a year. Under such as policy, at least half of the year would be spent under the stricter social distancing measures.


I would say SAGE did not seem to think much of reopening quickly.
I accept there may be later reports that change this view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:34 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS.
The only definite is that a given percentage of the most vulnerable will die if they become infected. What that mortality rate may be is as yet unquantified. Logically the route to follow is that those deemed most at risk suffer a more onerous lockdown by way of extensions than the younger and fitter.Stagnating vast parts of the normal NHS schedule also causes deaths. Transplant and cancer patients cannot wait for cancelled treatments. They also die. Some real life situations do not have a textbook of correct options to be followed, it is more a case of suck it and see.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy. If you choose to risk swamping the NHS that does not ensure the economy does not collapse. Indeed, many argue that a second wave caused by an early release when we were not properly prepared (with extensive testing and extensive tracing), would do exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:55 PM

"It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS"
That's it in a nutshell - money versus peoples health well-being and lives
When has it ever been any different ?
If the NHS was getting the support irt bneeded peopple wold be falling ill and dying at the rate they are
For all it's drawbacks, China has proved that hands down
It doesn't have such a problem because, despite having reintroducing Capitalism, it is under Government control rather than the opposite as in Britain and the US
It may have been the first to be hit by the virus, but it was the first to take it seriously, to show it the urgency required and to return to normal
The speed with witch that emergencyy hospital was up and running was a lesson for the world
China and Cuba were offering aid well before ther knockdowns were taking place
Meanwhile, back at Trump's ranch, the US were playing politics by rejecting "leftie" aid   
Now Johnson's jokers are faffing about tossing a coin to see whether business is more important than peoples lives, and his nodding dogs are shuffling into line to stand behind him   
This is also the case with the blame game - already it's the fault of disagreeing scientists insted of the string of fuck-ups already on record
Next stop - the last Labour Government
THIS from a scientist and surgeon with numerous Fellowships in Medicine and Medical science under his belt
Jim Carroll