Mudcatter's Genders

Subject: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 11:54 PM

First off, I have just realized the apostrophe in the thread title is misplaced. Apologies to all fellow pedants.

Thing is, I like to know when I am replying to a post, whether the poster is male or female. Obviously this is impossible in the case of anonymous Guests, although my presupposition is that he/they are invariably male.

There are however a number of members whose chosen handles give no clue as to their gender. Often it is possible to deduce from their postings whether they are male or female, but not always.

What I am proposing is that if your handle does not identify your gender, you could post to this thread simply stating "Male" or "Female" in the message. Not a big deal, and maybe you wish for some reason to remain ambivalent, but I feel it would be useful for other members to know. I can think of one or two past incidences of confusion regarding this issue.

I mean , I would be seriously embarrassed if I were to allege that someone lacked balls, and subsequently found out that I was addressing a woman ..................

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Benjamin
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:04 AM

I'm a male!
And Murray, I allege that you lack balls. I also have no idea why I just said that!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM

Why would that embarass you? It would be accurate!!

A.
Male

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Mark Clark
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:12 AM

Murray, A Mudcatter is totally without gender. Many Mudcatters, however, do have sex—probably not as often as they'd like—being most often either male or female.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:19 AM

Mark, are you trying to out-pedant a pedant ? I deliberately avoided the S-word lest it led to confusion, I felt that "gender" was altogether safer.

Amos, shame on you never thought of you as TWASOH !!

Benjamin, I don't think your handle causes any confusion. Neither do my balls.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: GUEST,ambiguous
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:22 AM

I find it really bizaar that gender would be thought even remotely relevant in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:26 AM

me either...I have no idea why it would be a cause of concern...btw I am a lesbian....

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Bert
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:31 AM

There is only ONE nameless GUEST and he doesn't have any gender (or sex either for that matter)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Mark Clark
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:32 AM

Murray, Are you saying I should know better? <g>

I think it's the incorrect use of the word gender that leads to confusion. In my experience, correct use of language seldom leads to confusion. Language is a maleable thing to be sure but I don't think people should alter the language just because they're timid or have sticks up their butts.

Is that pedantic enough?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:38 AM

Amergin, gender is not the same as sexual orientation, which indeed does not have the slightest relevance in this context.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:49 AM

I agree with Mark Clark, but I'm afraid it's a losing cause. In the good old days, a noun had a gender (masculine, feminine, or neuter), and a person had a sex (generally male or female). But somewhere along the line someone thought it was indelicate to use the word "sex" so indiscriminately (there's a pun hidden in there somewhere, I think), and borrowed the linguistic term. It's one of those many examples of an acceleration in the natural evolution of language, probably a result of television and, now, the internet.

Unfortunately, it means one of my favorite jokes is destined for obsolescence: A young woman is filling out a job application. She comes to the item with the word "Sex", accompanied by two checkboxes labeled "M" and "F". After some thought, she checks the "F" box. In the margin, she writes, "I haven't M'd for years."

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: paddymac
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:53 AM

Conventional English is generally not well disposed toward genderless discourse. Though gender usually does factor into verbal communication, it needn't be so in written communication. A difficulty in a place like this is that our exchages seem to often fall somewhere between verbal and written norms or conventions. Personally, I think not knowing the other person's gender leads to a more considerate conversation. As to the use of expressions regarding "balls", the usage is metaphorical, not anatomical, and gender seems thus unimportant to the communication. Excepting, of course, that the speaker might choose a different metaphor when the other person's gender is known. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:54 AM

*Groan*

I would suspect it had something to do with the women's liberation movement and the desire to eradicate all reminders of being seen mostly, or merely, as sex objects. Of course, that still continues, so if that was one of the reasons it was droppped, it didn't help much did it?*b*

Everyone who burned your bra and wears one now, please raise your hand!

katma (does that help?)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:56 AM

katdarlin....I'm raising my hand....

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 12:57 AM

This is 2001 Mark, I too studied Latin back in the 1960's, I am well aware of the LINGUISTIC difference between "gender" and "sex", but can we turn the clock back?

For example, nobody would be happier than I to see "gay" returned to its rightful place in the pantheon of unique English adjectives, but that ain't gonna happen either.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:16 AM

paddymac, I was *groaning* at Mark Cohen's joke, not at your posting.:-)

Raise 'em high, Amergin!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Mark Clark
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:21 AM

Murray, I'm totally down with that, dude. Let's turn 'er back.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:56 AM

There is only ONE nameless GUEST and he doesn't have any gender (or sex either for that matter)

Or manners either...

I'm a girl. Well, I was last time I looked...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 04:15 AM

Come to think of it, I don't have any sex either. At least not for the past couple of years...oh, well.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: GUEST,micca at work
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 04:28 AM

Having surprised a few 'catters by actually being Male, when they expected Female.. Micca Is male!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 05:06 AM

I am a GNOME. Not sure what gender that is and that makes sex very confusing and, somtimes, embarassing. Last time I looked I had sticky out bits below rather than above belly button though...;-)

Mind you I also think I'm pregnant due to the distended state of my middle bit and have not seen down there for years. I may be giving birth to a firkin of old grungers knacker nudger!

On a more serious note one of the things I love about Mudcat is that you often do not know who you are talking to and it matters not one jot! Whether I am male, female, black, white, green, pink, gay, straight, christian, moslem, jewish or even human does not matter. We are all of equal status here and I wish there were more places in the world where that happened!

Don't worry about it, Murray. Just deliver insults in a broadside and make sure they can offend eveyone;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 05:21 AM

The little gnomey one said:

"Don't worry about it, Murray. Just deliver insults in a broadside and make sure they can offend eveyone."

Excellent advice! Works for me anyway............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: GUEST,Spot (at the Kennels)
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:40 AM

I'm a dog.....It's what I'm stuck with cully....and as for balls....you can't lick 'em (but I can....;-)

Spot

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:43 AM

Didn't we have a thread for sitters and pointers? Was that what they were called?

~Not a Boy Named Sue

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: CharlieA
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:02 AM

Female. Yes Charlie can be a girls name. My housemates parents had to meet me before managing to get their heads round this fact *g*. Cxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: MMario
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:19 AM

I used to work for a woman named "Charlie" - have a cousin (female) named Stephen; used to attend a church where one couple were BOTH named "Francis" (and both spelled it that way)- My sister Lauri has what would be the masculine spelling in scandinavia.

In the long run, doesn't matter so much - but "knowing" more about the person you are "talking" with does enhance communication.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: GUEST,Lionel
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:48 AM

Murray, "...maybe if for some reason you wish to remain ambivalent..." appears in your text. This is could be dodgy, especially for persons who live in Middlesex.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:03 AM

Betcha can guess, if you had a mind to!

If not, I'll tell. I have no desire to hide anything (beyond my full name and address...this is the internet, after all).

;D

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: mooman
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:08 AM

I was a man (mcmoo). Then I briefly became a woman (Lady McMoo). Now I am a man again (mooman). The title Lady McMoo I have now official transferred to my SO.

mooman

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:12 AM

Mark Clark is right. I was going to make the same point when I saw this thread topic, but he beat me.

Words (nouns and pronouns in French, pronouns in English) have gender - masculine or feminine.

People (and animals) have sex.

SEX!

SEX!

SEX!

SEX!

You can say it! You won't go to Hell just for saying the word. I promise!

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:15 AM

Murray, I'm surprised that no one's pointed this out till now. but there are lots of women with "balls" out there... and around here!

Since "lacking balls" is, of course, a euphemism for lacking nerve, women can be as guilty of that as men. I suppose, though, that a man would feel more challenged by the accusation, and would feel the urge to defend his manhood. You probably wouldn't get as much of a rise (pun intended) out of a woman.

BTW, I'm female. My Mudcat nickname is NOT short for Sharon, Ariel! But I did embarrass myself recently by assuming that Ickle Dorritt was male, and consequently had to correct the lyrics to a parody I'd posted about her dog (Ickle has since changed her nickname). So, yeah, a gender clarification might be handy, but wouldn't it be less of an interruption to thread-flow if more of us simply submitted the information to the "Member Photos & Info" quick-link?

To GUEST, Lionel: If you think it's hard to be ambivalent about sex while living in Middlesex, try moving to Intercourse, PA!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:17 AM

I'm a GIRL and proud to be one. :-)

I do, however, have a male friend named Kim. And another one named Kimi. No lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: lamarca
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:24 AM

A word of caution from a spoilsport...

Mudcat is a very Public (that's public, not pubic, catspaw) Place, and not everyone who views posts is a member. The world being a riskier place for women, no matter what country you're in, some 'Catters probably would rather not let the world know if they're female. Just as many single women have their telephone directory entries read "Smith, K. W." instead of "Smith, Kathy" to prevent noxious attentions, some female 'Catters probably prefer gender-neutral monickers...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:25 AM

I wonder if it is merely coincidence that the Hawaiin word for a large and powerful woman is "Kahuna" and the Spanish word for balls is "Cajone".

Things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Then there's this: Is it merely conicidence that so many languages term for "non-us" sound sort of similar?

Romany=Gaja, Japanese=Gaijin, Yiddish=Goyem.

Oh, and Elvis shot JFK, by the way ;D

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 11:02 AM

Cceltic Soul, I'd never heard that meaning for kahuna. I'd always heard it referred to the shamans, male and female. Anyway, I went looking for more info and found this, which I thought might be of interest: kahunakui.com, with several definitions. Main definition of "kahuna" is "an expert in any profession." I couldn't get the definitions to copy, but here is some of the rest of what it posted there. There is some other good info, too, which I did not copy.

Many people have asked me to define the word Kahuna. The definitions above were from the Hawaiian Dictionary © by Mary Kawena Pukui and Samuel H. Elbert and published by The University of Hawaii Press. The word Kahuna literal means theHuna. Huna being the ancient religion of the kanaka maoli (Hawaiians) before the death of King Kamehameha (circa 1817).

kat - who still likes the amazonian implications, too:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 11:18 AM

As Popeye says, "I yam what I yam."

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: GUEST,Lionel
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:07 PM

SharonA - Intercourse PA? - is that for real?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:21 PM

Another word appropriate for this thread is sexist. It is quite easy to see who the sexists are just by reading the thread. Not that this thread is necessary to figure it out. One can suss that out just by reading posts for a couple of days here.

And no, I'm not suggesting that only men are sexist and/or anti-feminist. Plenty of women are feministphobes as well. This particular website seems to attract a number of macho, anti-feminist women, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: paddymac
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:40 PM

Then there's that lovely garden spot known as Climax, GA.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:41 PM

Well...murray...I do happen to know the difference between gender and sexual orinetation....I was poking fun at you...but since you are so stuck on yourself you did not appear to realise it. I ask again why is this so important? There are a few people here who do not wish to be identified by sex. Why should they come forward just to satisfy your curiosity? Besides this bullshit has been discussed before....maybe you could have spent a couple of minutes looking for that up...instead of wasting a perfectly good thread on it...but then that would have taken a whole five minutes...can't be wasting your time can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: GUEST,Burke
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:56 PM

For the purposes of this group I don't think you need to know my sex or my gender. The only person who really needs to know my sex or my sexual orientation is someone interested in having sex with me. Someone who knows me personally will know & if we ever meet you'll get the chance to find out.

If you address me incorrectly why should I get mad? I don't you to expect to have ESP. If you are worried about the possibility of insulting me or anyone incorrectly, learn to use genric insults that don't depend on sex at all. Lacking guts instead of balls, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 02:13 PM

Well Guest - we do see a lot of you here - in all of your aforementioned categories - it is nice to know we have an educated expert on the subjects at hand.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 02:59 PM

SharonA-- How would you like to live in place called Pity Me ? Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: lady penelope
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:05 PM

I'm with Amergin on this one. In most cases women can talk just as much tosh as men, I have never noticed one gender having more sensitivity than the other and I believe in polite ( where ever possible, I'm not a saint ) to people regardless of their gender. I don't see how waving flags as to which sex we are would help in most conversations.

My only gripe, being female, is this Miss, Ms, Mrs. If men are referred to as mister ( a corruption of master ) why can't women all be referred to as mistress, the original form of address for a woman? What's all this messing around with marital status and how old you are? Mainly I'll answer to anything polite, but this just narks me when filling in forms.

Now I've wandered off the subject, I'll wander off the thread.........

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: weepiper
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:06 PM

Female...
There's also the delightfully named village of 'Twatt' in Shetland.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:30 PM

Don't forget Pratt's Bottom.... I've been through it... it was boring.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:34 PM

I'm with the gnome here. I like the fact that people are regarded equally regardless of sex, and would question why it is so important to you to know, Murray? There will be the odd embarrassment due to erroneous assumptions, which I know only too well (hello, Fionn!) but I'd much rather it that way than "oh, I can't say that because X is female" or whatever...

Noreen
(who wasn't imaginative enough to think of a nom-de-souris when joining)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:48 PM

Oh, Mistress Penelope:-), I always answer those forms, when they ask for age, by writing in "adult."

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:59 PM

Lionel: Yup, it's for real; there's a town in Pennsylvania called Intercourse. As you might imagine, it's something of a tourist attraction! It's in "Pennsylvania Dutch country", east of Lancaster (not too far from Blue Ball – really!).

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcatter's Genders
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 04:09 PM

And then there's Bumpass, VA.