Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?

Subject: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:15 PM

I've been looking at some rather nice Martin guitars with a solid spruce top, and a neck, back & sides made out of a composite material which is wood mixed with a binding agent of some kind. It looks very much like normal wood, but is obviously tremendously strong.

These guitars sound darn good, but a little different sound in some way. One of them almost sounded like it had a subtle chorus effect (unamplified). Interesting.

Any opinions on these guitars from our veteran Mudcatters? I'd be interested what you think. The price is around $600 Cdn, which is around $400 American. Seems like good value to me.

- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM

There are some great inexpensive guitars out there. What model were you looking at - do you remember ?

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:28 PM

The one (I only tried one) I personally played sounded very, very flat, like it was all midrange with no crispness of treble or depth to the bass. If you found one that sounds good to you, go for it! My personal experience that the low-end Martins are a hit or miss thing; some sound amazing (some of the D-15s, which are all "real" wood, have a remarkable depth of sound) and some do not.

I think the composite nature of these guitar you're talking about makes them wonderful as a "beater" or road guitar, in that you don't have to handle them with kid gloves. (kinda like my ovation piece of poop that I haul along to places I don't want to take the Taylors!)

Only thing would be it won't improve in sound over time like an all solid wood instrument. And we're right back to, if you like the way it sounds, buy it! The price is certainly right, and being a Martin, it will always have some resale value when you want to trade or if you tire of it.

jim

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:30 PM

Sorry, can't recall the model #. I'll go down to Barrie some time later in the week and check on it. There's one with a mahogany look, one with a rosewood look, and another type too...all with a solid spruce top. I understand they use leftover wood scrap from their regular guitars, grind it into a powder, and then mix it with an epoxy resin or something like that to make the neck, back, and sides. It has to be the strongest neck around (there is a truss rod inside).

- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:32 PM

I'd add one other thing, too- I don't think you can beat Seagulls for a sound-to-price ratio. You don't get the Martin name, but the ones I've played have been astounding for their prices. Which doesn't really have a thing to do with your question. So...I'll add-

One thing about composite bodies of any kind I always wonder, is if joined to a solid top, does this theoretically make the top more prone to cracking due to different expansion and contraction rates?

jpc

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:41 PM

I agree with you about the Seagulls, but don't much like the way they look, so I'll probably never buy one.

- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:03 PM

Little Hawk - I'm also curious about the size you're looking for. I'll echo whats been said about the 15 series Martins. Do check them out before you buy. And theres one available in about any size you could ask for. What do you want your next guitar to do ?

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: CraigS
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:21 PM

I'd just throw into the equation that Torres, the father of the Spanish guitar, built a guitar in the 1880s with a papier mache body to illustrate the importance of the top's contribution to the overall sound. It still exists, but it's too fragile to play. That's the first example I know of a guitar with a "composite wood" body, so it's hardly a new concept.
I don't think it is true to say that these guitars won't improve with age, if the tops are solid. It is true to say that a spruce top will improve more with age than a cedar top.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:06 PM

LH, you sure you got it right that the neck is made out of resin and sawdust? Seems highly unlikely to me, for all sorts of reasons, but if you say so ..

I have a Martin with composite sides and back,cost me $500.00 but the neck is made of solid mahogany.

Murray

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:24 PM

Well, if you look at the neck you can see that it's a synthetic wood-based composite of some kind, and you can feel the difference too, but I don't know exactly how they do it. It has a quasi-wood grain effect which is quite attractive. It's sure not a mahogany neck.

I'll get more details the next time I go to the store. I've got a cold at the moment, and am taking it easy and staying home.

It was threatening to snow again tonight. Yuk.

- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:55 PM

The mac-spelling here? maccifieris were all plastic and actually sounded decent, so you're right in saying experimentation with alternative materials (even different types of wood, note how there are now more guitars with cherry, ovangkvol, etc) goes way back.

But I do stand by what I've said... other things being equal (like assuming you don't have 2x4s for bracing and that the woods are thin enough to vibrate freely, etc) a guitar made at least partially with composite materials will not improve in tone the way a guitar made with ALL solid woods will. (Note the way I stated that originally, please!) I'm not saying, if you're lucky, that it might not sound better in time- I'm saying it will not have as noticeable an improvement as an all-solid body does. (Look at Ovations as an example. Ever hear one that sounded better with age? They seem to sound exactly the same for their lifetime to my ears- which can be a good thing in itself, if you like the way it sounds.)

Which returns me to, I still say, if it sounds and feels good to you, buy it!

jim
(who, by the way, prefers 00 or 000 size guitars.) (-12 or -14 in Taylor vernacular)

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM

Yeah. I've never cared for Ovations. Can't stand 'em, in fact.

- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:17 PM

but, if the plane goes down, Ovations make better flotation devices. (I heard this argued seriously many years ago.)

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: CraigS
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:12 PM

I dislike Ovations, although I bought one for stage use fifteen years ago because they don't feed back (and it's been living under the bed in the spare room for thirteen years). I've got to point out, though, that Ovations are not supposed to get better - they are supposed to stay the same. The top line models have the table constructed of carbon fibre in an effort to achieve this.
The point I was making is that while the back and sides have an effect on the overall sound, the critical factor is the density of the material - a guitar with back and sides of denser wood (eg. rosewood, maple) will sound crisper and cleaner, and sustain better, in comparison to a guitar made of less dense wood (eg mahogany). The top material is the major factor in getting a better sound as the guitar ages - a cedar top will respond well immediately after the guitar is built, but will then improve very slowly, while a spruce top will improve more with age. The other factor is that instruments have to be played regularly to improve (although there are ways around this, playing them is the easy option).

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:05 PM

Ah hah! That makes sense, and it answers the question for me as to why I like Rosewood-bodied guitars better than mahogany-bodied ones. The Rosewood gives a "crisper, cleaner" sound, like you say. The mahogany is very warm sounding, but somehow lacks the edge that the Rosewood has. Maple, on the other hand, usually sounds just a little too hard-edged to me. I definitely prefer spruce tops to cedar tops, although the cedar has quite a nice sound, generally.

So perhaps the real question is: just how dense is the material Martin is using on these guitars I've been looking at?

Well, we shall see...maybe on the weekend.

- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:56 AM

It used to be, either Martin 18 or 28 grade in whateve size you wanted, Gibson, whatever whape and fancy stuff suited you, or an unplayabl, fingertip torturing piece of crap your father thought was good enough to learn with.

Yes, there were other quality makes,Washburn, Stella 12-strings, Epiphone, Gretch, and later on, Fender (nah), This was when a Martin D-28, Brazillin Rosewood guitar cost $180.00. Except for Gibson, the other guitars were for people who's faterh didn't have the $180.00 (plus $25.00 for a hardshell case)

NOW!! You have all kinds of Japanese, Spanish, and custom made guiars that are real quality, for the people who don't want to spend a rediculous amount of money on a Martin that may or may not sound good, no matter what the price.

You can still get a damned good sounding Gibson for a lot less than the other guy who seems to have gotten caught up in his own mystique (however it's spelled)

Ilike my old Martin D-28, but it was made when the previous C. F. Martin was running the company and they still had good quality Brazillian Rosewood I paid $280.00 for this gem which is, quite simply, not available anymore. I also bought a Gibson J-30 when C.F Martin wanted $1,600. 00 to repair my old buddy after it was stepped on by a drunk woman with two wooden legs (honest to God) With aaced with new material, , new neck new top, large slices of wood replaced, I Had them send it back. Al Leis of Tiverton, Rhode Island eventually stuck it back together again for $75.00. No new wood new neck, etc etc. The same old guitar soundd like it used to, which is damned good.
AND THEN,Paul Gerermia, with mirror and old fashioned distributor feeler guage found a loose strut, which must have been loose when I bought the guitar, glued it in place. The result is a guitar which sounds better than any other guitar that I've ever heard, excluding Wilma Lee Coopers D-48 which is older than mine.
The Gibson J-30, which I bought becuse I needed a good guitar while mine was out of circulation, is one of their cheaper models. It sounds really good, and is a whole hell of a lot easier to play than my old Martin (but I still use the Martin ) The J-30 is for when I break a string in the middle of a set and don't want to take a break to replace it.

What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of great guitars out there, some of them made with a solid spruce top and the back and sides made out of plywood (actually good painstakingly laminated) fiberglass, and composition board of one kind or another. And they are excellent guitars, so it is no surprise that The Marin company is making guitars out of this new material. It probbly sounds really good too.

If you like it, and anyone sticks their nose up in the air because it isn't made out of material that meets with their approval, tell them to go piss up a rope (you can tell them that I suggested this proceedure which is very very difficult for a woman to do)

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:59 AM

Now you can see why my lovely wife, Donna, calls me "King Nebuchudnezzar" at times, because I do "babble on"
Jody Gibson.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM

Great post, CRANKY YANKEE, and I couldn't agree with you more. There are an amazing number of superb and moderately priced guitars out there now. The drunk woman with 2 wooden legs story is just downright amazing and classic! A friend of mine lost a very fine old Martin when a large woman tripped and fell flat out on it at the Mariposa folk festival, utterly destroying the sound box in the process. She was not drunk, I don't think, just clumsy.

By the way, my first guitar was an "unplayable, fingertip torturing piece of crap my parents thought was good enough to learn with." (Actually, they just didn't know any better. I mostly blame the salesman. The thing was good for one purpose only...firewood.)


- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:34 PM

Ever since I got my new right knee I've been a bit more open to these kinds of innovations. 'Tis said that home is the place where, when ya gotta go there, they've got to take ya in. ---- I'm sure that a synthetic Martin is surely playable. I just know that there is nothing like coming home to a Martin after a hard day and feeling the vibrations of the real wood top and back of a fully matured and aged Martin guitar. Holding it in your own two hands hands when you hit the bass strings just right with your pick (thumb or flat)---- and HEARING those same vibes in the bare bones acoustic music you are making-------well, there never will be an electric pickup or a linolium body instrument that will ever compare.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:38 PM

Had another look at it. It's a Martin DX1 model. Still sounds good, but I don't need another guitar. Well, gotta think about this...

- LH

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST,syncopater
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:38 PM

I bought a Martin DX1K -solid spruce top and koa style laminate back and sides -composite neck too. I hated the look of the DX1R rosewood laminate and the mahogany style neck's grain. The koa is so much better to look at with nice unusual contrast. Most people don't know what Koa looks like so don't guess it is composite unless thay look in the soundhole and see the grey interior. It has a really full sound for the price and on a blind trial with much dearer guitars would hold up well. As it is new it has a very bright sound and I am waiting to see how it matures if indeed it does. The factory action setting was way too high at 1/8 at bass 12th fret so needed lowered quite a bit . This reduced the volume slightly but still great and not as bright a sound which was better. Sometimes I feel that if strumming it has a compressed sound which is odd. It sounds best with Martin SP+ Phosphor bronze strings. I play fingerstyle and it is really powerful with these. This is a good mid range guitar gor gigging but eventually I really want a D35 which is 3 times the price but feels and sounds perfect from the start with a great factory setup.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:17 PM

..."I really want a D35 which is 3 times the price but feels and sounds perfect from the start with a great factory setup" ...

Good luck with finding any Martin with a great factory setup...

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM

Hi,
I also recently bought a DX1Koa.
Here in Ireland it cost €700. I think it's a good guitar, and I look forward to listening to that big spruce top "open up" over the coming years. I do sometimes feel that I'm listening to a synthetic body, but then again that may be down to my already knowing what it is - I'd like to be subjected to a blindfold test on it some day.
Although a low-end Martin, the guitar is well built, and considering the number of guitars Mr. Martin produces every year, fair play to him.
My only gripe is the quality of the machine heads - they ain't the best. By the way, can anyone recommend where to get an upgrade on the machine heads; would Martin supply them?

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM

"feeling the vibrations of the real wood top and back of a fully matured and aged Martin guitar. Holding it in your own two hands hands when you hit the bass strings just right with your pick (thumb or flat)---- and HEARING those same vibes in the bare bones acoustic music you are making-------well, there never will be an electric pickup or a linolium body instrument that will ever compare." Art Thieme

Love it, Art! It is how I feel about my D35.

Incidentally, when I was in Prince Rupert (west coast British Columbia) a couple of weeks ago I went to a music store there. They had mostly Ovations, I think, which I didn't bother with, but they had a 'Montana' which had an unusual top, being that kind of stripy grain that one often finds on the back of a guitar.   (There's a name for it, but it's slipped my mind.) I looked Montana up on the Intenet and it appears that it is/was made by Gibson. Does anyone know anything about it?

It was only $200 or so cdn and the sound wasn't that great so I wasn't tempted to buy it, but it did make me curious.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:37 PM

Machineheads - Waverley.
Seagulls - very variable.
Indestructible - Rainsong.
Stress caused by connecting wood to tough stuff - a definite risk. I've seen the side of a Garrison cracked fromend to end by wood shrinking while attached to a rigig fibreglass frame.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen away from home
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:10 PM

I have a 000-X1 that I bought when my 1970 D-18 walked away. Like Little Hawk's model, it has a composite back and sides and solid spruce top. I believe the neck is composite, too--it has a pretty zebrawood-like finish. I'm very pleased with the sound--especially when I hear it played by someone who can really play. And the price was right: $650! I just wish the model number didn't sound like something out of a 1950's science fiction movie.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:17 PM

The DX1 is a fine X-braced guitar for the money.

Like all Martins, you will never lose money on it.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 02:11 PM

If Martin want to make sweeps into the mid range Yamaha and Takamine market they are going to have to do a whole lot better than this laminated lot they are chucking out at the moment!, why buy a shoddy made guitar for over £500.00 that is made of laminate back and sides and nato neck just because it has 'Martin' stamped on the headstock when you can buy something like the excellent and superbly made Yamaha LL6 which is ALL solid wood back and sides and solid wood neck with an ebony fingerboard for around £330.00, it doesn't make sense! It will knock the socks off any Laminated Martin for tone/playability and aesthetics, if you MUST have a Martin, buy a proper one for heavens sake! It may cost over £1000.00 for one but at least it will be a Martin to be proud of!

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST,jock gibbo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:16 AM

refering to those synth-bodies .im convinced the DX1 is the business.for sessions -fingering -struming-it has the warmest sound.and when set up its well worth 500 notes

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 10:31 AM

I have a DX1 which I bought in Canada (sort of souvenier) I also have a Fylde Orsino (28years old) both excellent guitars in their own way. I tried 2/3 DX1 guitars and thought there was little difference in sound or playability and I guess that is one of the strengths/weaknesses of such a guitar-they tend to be samey but it's not a bad sameyness tho. I played a modern Orsino a couple of years ago and thought, at the time that if anything happened to my original Orsino, I didn't have another 28 years playing to find out if it was going to mature the way my original Orsino did.
chris

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:33 AM

I bought a DCX1E three weeks ago and it sounds great. It has a clear strong treble and the deep kind of bass associated with rosewood. I think the newer models have the advantage of technological advancements in the bracing.

I just picked up one that is at least 7 years old for a friend and it sound a lot like mine, but much sweeter. It obviously aged very nicely.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:07 AM

I have a DX1R and it is amazing! I have never played a better guitar, the sound is astonishing and it is very LOUD. THe top is cedar and WILL improve with age (though it is great now). I do agree about the machine heads though, seem good enough quality wise, but so tiny!

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:30 AM

"Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 02:11 PM

If Martin want to make sweeps into the mid range Yamaha and Takamine market they are going to have to do a whole lot better than this laminated lot they are chucking out at the moment!, why buy a shoddy made guitar for over £500.00 that is made of laminate back and sides and nato neck just because it has 'Martin' stamped on the headstock when you can buy something like the excellent and superbly made Yamaha LL6 which is ALL solid wood back and sides and solid wood neck with an ebony fingerboard for around £330.00, it doesn't make sense! It will knock the socks off any Laminated Martin for tone/playability and aesthetics, if you MUST have a Martin, buy a proper one for heavens sake! It may cost over £1000.00 for one but at least it will be a Martin to be proud of!"


Obviously written by someone who has never seen or played one of these. I happen to also have a Yammy LL6 - the DX1 leaves it souding like a plank with strigs on. ( To be fair though, I thoughjt it was great till I got the Martin)

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 04:20 AM

I think that, to a certain extent, to brand individual instruments as "good" or "bad", just on a brand name and price, is too sweeping. I have a Martin XC1T limited edition cutaway electro-acoustic - spruce top and HPL back and sides. It has the Fishman Ellipse piezo/mic blended system built in and sounds superb both acoustically and when plugged in. Before buying it, I tried many, many guitars in the shop and - for me - this suited my ear and hands the best. Cost, at that time: £700. I tried a Martin "Martin Carthy" signature at the same time, complete with zero fret and 3 brass bridge pins. Cost, at that time: £2,400 - and not a patch on my much cheaper Martin.

My only conclusion is that everyone has their own taste and response to a guitar - and that each guitar, to a certain extent, has its own merits, regardless of price. For example, I've never yet tried a Taylor that I liked - but that's just me. There ar currently 3 Lowdens in my local shop - but only one of them (the cheapest, s/h/ at £1,550) is exactly to my taste.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Silas
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:21 AM

I also have a Martin 'FelixIII' which is all (apart from the neck) HPL. It has an amazing sound, not a deep and bassy as the dreadnought as you would expect, but it is lovley to play. Its great fun in sessions too - it looks like a toy guitar - till you play it!

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM

"RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?"


A picture worth a thousand words . . . .

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: Silas
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:22 AM

Haa Haaa!

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 10:28 PM

Now I have three Martins...an old D 18, a D16RGT (solid spruce and solid rosewood), a DCX1E (solid top, HPL back and sides) and a Sigma DR 41. They each have advantages. The X model sounds fine unamplified and great plugged in at gigs, the D16RGT is opening up and has a very sweet sound...but not as much volume as I would like on the high E string. The Sigma (which has a Fishman Gold +) may be the best of all the instruments and it has laminated rosewood back and sides. It sounds wonderful plugged in and acoustically.

The D 18 is also terrific, but I don't want to subject it to gigs anymore. According to reputation and expense, the X model and the Sigma should be the worse of the bunch...but they're just as nice or better in their own way. Still, every guitar is unique. Every piece of wood is different. Play them all and see what sounds and feels best for you instead of buying something someone says is best.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:23 AM

I thought I had replied on this Subject but it must have been a similar thread.
I bought a DCX 1E ( might have been a 100E ) I'm at work and I can't go and check, but it is a cut-away complete with fishman set up and controls and it beats the socks off my D28 in every department - except it carries the stigma of not having real wood sides and back.
A luthier remarked to me " I didn't realise Marin were making guitars from formica". I don't know if our US friends understand "formica" but he was trying to be homourous,albeit in a derogative manner, as, formica is ? / was a name for plastic wood used in Kitchen furniture. Both sounds - whether natural or through a PA System are great in all departments ie bass treble volume , great up to, and, past the 12th fret and I love it. Well worth the price.

Subject: RE: Martin guitars with synthetic bodies?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM

Now, after having on Martin Dreadnaughts, I finally bought a 000X1. I wanted to get it before the 175th year passed. My youngest daughter loves it and eventually, it will be hers.

Before purchasing it, I compared it to the much more expensive 000 solid models in the store. My brother in law felt it wasn't as bright, but with the blindfold test, he chose it over the solid one.

I did note that unlike the brochure says, it has two, not one, tone bar. It's a very sweet sounding little guitar and I'm looking forward to it getting better.