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Warped Martin

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s&r 20 Oct 04 - 07:10 PM
Bobert 20 Oct 04 - 07:14 PM
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Peace 20 Oct 04 - 07:40 PM
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Subject: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:10 PM

Just heard from a good friend that his Martin body has warped badly and pushed the fingerboard off. Neither the importer/Agent nor Martin are apparently interested claiming it was caused by poor storage by the previous importer (now out of business)

Anyone any experience or comments?

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:14 PM

How old is this Martin?


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:16 PM

about a year. It was a major purchase and the realisation of a long ambition...

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:33 PM

Well, I have learned from my lutherer buddy, who is an authorized Martin repairman, that the newer Martins have had lots of problems.

I would suggest that your friend ask to talk with someone higher up in Martin than whomever he is has been talking. Perhaps threy have had similar problems with this model. Martin does try hard to keep its customers satisfied.

Good luck and keep us posted...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:40 PM

He should ship it to Martin under their "lifetime of the instrument for the original owner" warranty. Or have a lawyer qwrite them a nasty note -- he can't be held liable for the sins of for one of their importers.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:40 PM

Ditto what Bobert said. And good luck.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:44 PM

I second the "send it to Martin" suggestion. If he's the original owner, it should be reparable for no charge. Martin will take it out of the seller's hide, assuming it was an authorized dealer.

You do say "previous importer," which indicates a dealer, so it should be covered.

Where is this guitar located? That might make a difference.

Songbob


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:48 PM

Oh .... what a relief. At first, when I read the thread title, I thought this was about a mudcatter! WHEW! Bob


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:03 PM

No no! He's always filed under "BS."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:26 PM

Why .... MR. DON FIRTH!!! I'm ashamed of you .... sorta! Bob


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 03:46 AM

Instrument located in the NorthEast of England.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Davetnova
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:16 AM

Martins in Britain are sold with a disclaimer that Martin is not responsible. I.e. no lifetime warranty just normal sale of goods act and suchlike.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: PennyBlack
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:33 AM

Stu - looks like a job for Eddie!

PB


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:03 AM

Already suggested Eddie Green: waiting for response from Tony after his period of mourning. It's possible he's taken it to Roger at Fylde since he lives at Hexham.

This disclaimer sounds odd - is it just the UK or anywhere outside the US?

Just goes to show you need to read the small print.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:06 AM

Deckman

YOU're relieved? I thought I'd been found out!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Davetnova
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:10 AM

I don't know how far ir spreads. I only know that when I bought mine earlier in the summer it had the little ticket/pamphlet hanging from the headstock saying Martin took no responsibility for anything. It was a bit of a surprise as I had always thought of Martin/lifetime warranty.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:14 AM

Thanks.for the info. It's difficult to imagine what storage conditions could cause the damage Tony describes short of ovens, swamps, or microwaves...

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:33 AM

Just heard that Tony's still pushing for help from Martin...Hope he's successful: it seems sad that a legendary maker should be let down by restricted after sales support.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:22 AM

Well surely there are enough Mudcatters to form a pressure group which Martin couldn't ignore? Especially in view of our many performer members.
It could be petition time!
Giok


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:14 AM

My mistake I thought this would be about Martin Gibson.

eric


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

My mate bought his Martin in America. He tried it, placed it in the boot of the car (trunk) and we set off back to Portland Oregon from Ashland. (350 miles). As we went northwards and read the warranty it was clear that Martin did not consider themselves responsible for anything.

First item in te don'ts - DON'T PUT THE GUITAR IN THE BOOT OF THE CAR.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GLoux
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:44 AM

From the Martin web site:

Only "C.F. Martin" Instruments purchased in the United States or Canada from an Authorized Martin Dealer are covered by the "Limited Warranty" provided by C.F. Martin & Co., Inc., with main offices at 510 Sycamore St., Nazareth, PA 18064.

-Greg


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:00 AM

To John 'Giok' MacKenzie.
Count me in - and I hope C.F. MARTIN are taking notice.
I would remind them that some companies have found that it took many YEARS to build up a good reputation,only to have it ruined in a matter of minutes.
C.F.Martin - sit up and pay attention - I just bought my 2nd Martin 10 Weeks ago and now I'm shitting myself. I don't expect to be in panic mode when I buy a quality product - and Martin have to accept that sometimes their staff may not (for whatever good reason or another ) - produce a guitar to Martin's normally high standards.
Beware - but also be warned !!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:15 AM

Anyone buying a Martin has to be warped. There are far better guitars at half the price - use your brains and your ears people (your pocket book will like you)


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:18 AM

A matter of personal opinion and taste GUEST Joe.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:21 AM

Yea sure - unless you've seen them being "hand-made" and talk to luthiers who are in the know.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: PennyBlack
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:00 PM

Martin Unofficial Forum

might be worth a visit to the above forum and post the info there - a great bunch of lads.

PB


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:29 PM

Martins in Britain are sold with a disclaimer that Martin is not responsible. I.e. no lifetime warranty just normal sale of goods act and suchlike.

I've an idea that disclaimers like that aren't necessarily valid. And the sales of goods act would mean that the person it was bought it from carries some kind of legal responsibility. They sold it as a instrument in good condition, and I would have thought that this kind of damage so soon after buying it would mean it wasn't fit for the purpose it was purchased for.

If the suggestion was that the damage was down to your friend's treatment of it, they might have an out - but if they are saying it was because of the way it had been treated by the person from whom they obtained it, they would be fully liable, I'd have thought. (They might have a claim agains the previous importer, but that's their problem.)

Youir friends need to get advice from someone who knows the ins and out of the law on these matters. The local Citizens Rights Bureau might be able to advise.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:48 PM

I still have the letter signed by Christian Martin the third which I received after buying a duty free D 35 in Hong Kong at less than a third the UK list price . And the Lifetime First Owner Warranty !


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:54 PM

I think I'd need a better reason to go to Hong Kong


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:21 PM

I am not qualified to give legal advice nor should this be regarded as legal advice. As far as I understand the position........

Disclaimers such as the one quoted in previous post are a problem and any that purport to disclaim legal responsibility for ......whatever......might be treated with disdain by a court. (As an aside disclaimers which deny management responsiblity for injury or death as I saw at one folk festival, are in themselves illegal).

The Sale of Goods and Services Act applies to a contract between the seller (now out of business in this case) and the purchaser. It does not AFAIK apply to the manufacturer unless you bought directly from them and they were in effect the seller.

It is often an excuse given by shops that they will send it back to the manufacturer. That is their problem - your contract is with the shop and it is to the shop that you should seek remedies. A shop which no longer exists of course in this case.

Having said that I am not surprised at Martin's attitude. If the guitar was not stored properly at some time in its life after it left them in perfect condition why should they be liable? Hard to prove it either way I would have thought. If the person who sold it has gone out of business it is hardly surprising if that is the way they treated Martin guitars.

In UK law the manufacturer would be liable under the civil action of tort - if the guitar had (for example) spontaneously exploded and caused damage to someone. The famous case of Donoghue v. Stevenson 1932 - the snail in the ginger beer bottle - would apply IFit was a GB manufacturer.

Sorry this is not of much encouragement.

Best regards

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:43 PM

Are there small claims courts in the UK? You would probably need an expert witness (luthier) to prove that it had a manufacturing defect, and not left out in the rain or some such careless damage.
Obie


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM

I am a lawyer. English. Check out the Sale of Goods Act 1979 as amended to date. Tell the dealer it was bought from to fix it or else. The regulations mentioned below put a whole load of extra sections in to help consumers.

Manufacturers guarantees are given effect, in part, by the Unfair COntract Terms Act 1977, and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2003 (might be (2)) - but here the manufacturer's warranty plainly is a non-warranty so it does not help.

Get on to the local Consumer Advice Bureau or Trading Standards officers.

Hell, for the price of a Martin, go to a lawyer!


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:42 PM

Yep - That's what I remember from my very basic business law - Isn't mechantable quality mentioned somewhere, Richard? Merchantable quality meaning that the item should last the length of time that can be reasonably be expected of the item? I would say that it is more than reasonble to assume that treated fairly FROM THE DATE OF PURCHASE - not before - a Martin guitar should indeed last more than a year! I used to know some of the case thingies but that was way back in the mid 70's and they have probably been supersceeded since! And I have drunk a lot of brain cells away of course...

Hey! Now there's a thing. Can I sue God if I don't last a reasonable time - say 80 or 90 years. Hmmm.

Hope it gets sucessfuly resolved anyway.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: cumbrian
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:53 PM

Surely it depends upon the retailers warranty as to whether or not they will do anything.
Most retailers will honour a one year warranty, this being independant of any manufacturers warranty.
I suspect the real problem here is that the retailer has little or no relationship to the new distributor and no further connection to the old distributor ( who may well not exist anymore ), plus if the guitar is beyond any informal one year warranty agreement, the retailer will say tough, find a luthier or contact Martin.
I have had dealings with Martin regarding problems with a high end instrument here in the UK, and found that while being polite, they offered little or no useful help in the circumstances.
It sounds like a horrendous problem with this particular guitar and way beyond the typical scenario created by some kind of structural failure.
The area of the top around the neck is usually about the most reliable part of the top. Typically, I have come across odd problems with the bridge lifting on newish guitars, due to the natural bellying pof the soundboard in that area and the bridge not going with the flow as it were, other than that, in extreme circumstances a crack can occur in the back or sides, normally temperature related or due to impact stress. There are many other things that can happen ( it is wood we are talking about, but for the guitar to warp as described is very odd indeed.
I sincerely hope that this has a happy outcome, because I know only too well the disappointment of seeing great expectations in an instrument go bad ( thankfully not for a long time now, thanks Mr Roger Bucknall )


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:12 PM

Dave the gnome - merchantable quality died as an expression years ago.

Now Satisfactory quality. Do download an up to date Sale of GOods Act. It will make you instantly popular in shops in your area (not).

Cunbria - please go and look it up before advising others.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:59 PM

I know plenty of people here buying good quality Martin instruments.

considering you bought from a guy who is now long gone suggests that you did not do your homework in dealing with a reputable dealer who was going to be around for service after the sale.

also, I suspect negligence on your part for an instrument of Martin's quality, even on it's lower end models (I can't find even what model this questionable instrument is in this thread?)

Also, I think if you were not aware of Martin's warranty policy, again you did not do your homework.

If this is a low end model like a DM, it might not be worth fixing. If so, I hope you have learned from this guitar buying experience.

Good luck.

Eric the Red, what is your problem?


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:14 PM

not cheap. £2k or thereabout. About a year ago the importer was in business. Don't have details, don't think he expected to need a warranty so soon: not looking for lecture just shared experience or advice - thanks to those who've contributed. Still under some investigation following friend's insistence.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: cumbrian
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:29 PM

sorry Richard, we bow to your superior knowledge..., sadly your comments mean sod all in the real world. I was merely stating exactly the kind of thing that happens every day.
Exactly how long after purchase of an item can a customer reasonably expect to walk back into a store and demand a warranty repair or replacement ?
Unless there is absolute proof that the fault could be traced back to the point of manufacture, I doubt very much that waving the sales of goods act around would mean a thing.

Stu, sorry for adding this response to the thread, I realise that it does not help you further, however, I really do hope that your friend manages to get this guitar back into playable condition.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:01 PM

Unless there is absolute proof that the fault could be traced back to the point of manufacture...

That's not the position - the relevant thing would be proof that the damage existed at the time of sale, regardless of how it had been caused (whether druring manufacture or poor storage, or damage in transit etc). Proof that it existed at point of manufacture would only be relevant if the claim was against the manufacturer.

The fact that an importer is not currently in business would not mean they did not carry liability for selling faulty goods, and I believe that if someone had purchased their business, that would make them, liable for such things. Rather like an unpaid debt turning up - which in effect is what this is.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 09:32 PM

I was sure this was about Martin Gibson!


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: JennyO
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:31 PM

This is getting a bit old, GUEST. Unfortunately I'm not surprised to find your comment and others like it through the thread - and then you wonder why the guy reacts! I've noticed for some time now that more often than not, it is somebody else who initiates the nastiness - sorta like touching an electric fence (although I did open that thread we weren't supposed to :-))

It would be nice to at least leave that stuff out of music threads.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: PennyBlack
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 08:02 AM

Stu,

I presume the retailer is still in business? What action is he/she willing to take?

Which importer was it? I presume it wasn't a grey import?

The following is the company I have been dealing with for Martin Guitars for some time:-


Westside Distribution

UNIT C, 139 LANCEFIELD STREET, GLASGOW. G3 8HZ.
TEL: +44 (0) 141 248 4812 FAX: +44 (0) 141 248 4813
info@westsidedistribution.com


cheers

PB


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: s&r
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 05:29 PM

It's currently under discussion with the Martin dealer in Tony's area; at the moment there's still some hope that the business will be dealt with sympathetically/honourably.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: cumbrian
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:36 PM

Good to hear that Stu, here' hoping.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM

Try a chat to Brian Rodgers, Chatham - a Martin freak and a good guitar fettler. I think this might be a lot cheaper to fix than some fear. You can probably trace Brian via his band, No Worries.

Martin Gibson, you are beyond the pale.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:18 PM

Oops, on the wrong thread - I was thinking about the bridge.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:00 PM

Richard Bridge

You are on the wrong planet, actually. Certainly the wrong country.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:26 PM

Dear Gibson,

I'm so glad it's not the country you come from. One O too many really.

There again, I suspect many wish you did not come from the country you do come from.

You really seem to combine the unpleasantness and inflated self-worth of some of life's most disgusting creatures - such as Geoffrey Archer and Robert Maxwell - although happily you are not as important (despite your self-importance) as they.

As to countries, yours, and most particularly the chauvinism you display, has been spectacularly wrong in most things of late.

Servant, sir.


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Subject: RE: Warped Martin
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM

Never heard of those guys. Please come down to earth and not be so snobbishly pompous, Bridge.

You might learn something about music from me.


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