BS: Being alone, how?

Subject: BS: Being alone, how?
From: maire-aine
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:48 PM

Next up on the psychiatrist's couch.... All of the recent threads on death and loss have got me thinking about my own situation. Being a single woman (already well into middle age) without any siblings, I've been looking at my future rather than my past. And from where I sit, it doesn't look too rosy.

My dad died at 52 of heart failure when I was 14. My mother (who died about a year ago) lived to be 92, but her last 5 years were taken over with Alzheimer's and she had no idea what was going on. She needed help with EVERYTHING, even the most personal and intimate functions. I was very fortunate to have an aide who took care of her while I went to work, because quitting my job to take care of her was never an option.

But it brought home to me how alone I am, if anything should go wrong. I mean, even if I don't make it to an advanced age, I wonder how I would cope if anything ever happened to me, where I couldn't work and couldn't take care of myself. Heck, a serious traffic accident or even a slip and fall on the ice, and I could be laid up for months or even years.

I've tried to take the right precautions- I have a will and a power-of-attorney and long-term care insurance. But that only takes care of the financial part of the problem. I have some wonderful friends, but nobody that would be able or expected to take care of me. The emotional stress of a future alone seems to be what's bothering me the most.

Is anybody out there dealing with the same sort of issue? Especially without a life partner? Any advice?

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM

Hello, fellow pea. Mighty snug in this pod, eh?
The physical part of me is middle aged, and I'm also alone. Dad died when I was 17, Mom made it to 72, lived alone and died in a hospital. I was home then, and had visited her every day. I called every week prior to that. We were pretty close, and I knew when she went, it would be my last safety net falling apart. I'm an only child, and I'm not close to the last of my family, my cousins, who all have their own lives.

I've made good friends over the years, but they also have their own lives and my part in those lives wasn't too significant. I'd move and lose touch because I was always the one to call them and I'd get tired of it, and tired of being the only one who 'needed' a friend. The few I've kept and feel closest to are the ones whose lives I AM a part of and who care about me as well as me caring about them.

I think I would have ended up completely miserable as a married person, but sometimes it feels like I've painted myself into a corner. Being alone is something I'm used to, but it's tough not being able to count on a loved one with which I can share joys and sorrows, hopes and fears. But the thought of being truly dependent on people is what bothers me more than anything.

I guess you take care of what you can, you have faith that some things will just work out, and you try not to worry. Worry can make you feel worse than anything that might really happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:02 PM

I hate to even mention them because of the images they conjure, but the many retirement communities that are now scattered throughout the world do offer some major benefits along these lines.

The unfortunate images include being surrounded by people who think Lawrence Welk is still the king of music. That generation is now giving way to folks who have more eclectic tastes in such things. Of course, if the original idea, as well as the later thoughts about a Mudcat Retirement Community were ever to become a reality, then all our problems would be solved!

I know, though, that you were in earnest about your questions. I wish I could offer a more adequate response. Certainly they are issues many of us must face.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:05 PM

There have been semi-facetious threads in the past about creating an "Old Folkies" home.... Sometimes I wonder if it is not a good idea.

I am 'slightly' better off than the above, but not a lot. I have a wife and one son, and a circle of friends that I know would 'help' in moderate degrees...but as we ALL get older, who can predict? Due to life's vageries, we have no meaningful savings....so...(I am lucky am and have been reasonably healthy)

I do recommend 'joining' things if you can...church, garden clubs, folk socities...whatever....to increase the number of people who know you and care, but that only works if you are the joining type and live where it is possible.

It isn't easy in this society with accent on youth and scant 'social awareness' in institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:52 PM

I have a partner, but even family can only give or help in so many ways.

A few of my scattered gyrlfriends and I have always talked about living together in our later years with or without partners. It's a comfort to think various of us might be able to offer that to another. I feel this esp. as Rog smokes and really doesn't take very good care of his health, imo.

You might be surprised at just how much friends can/will do. About three years ago when I was in depression and we needed to move out of a bad situation, a Mudcatter made a very generous offer to Rog and me to come live where they were. It was a serious option until we figured a way to get out of our predicament on our own. It was a completely out of the blue offer and went straight to my heart. I will always be grateful for the very real LifeLine it represented.(I later found out, another Mudcatter had considered offering us something similar, but it wasn't to be, at the time.)

I think one suggestion might be, too, to subscribe to the Caretaker's Gazette and/or other pubs. which might list deliberate communities where one can work to purchase part of the land; share or not in common meals, etc. kind of like a commune. You might ask Bearheart (Bekki) about this, as I believe she has experience in this. It si my understanding that can be a lot of support, caregiving, etc. in such planned endeavours.

I envy your independence. My dependence scares me sometimes.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: mg
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:53 PM

don't worry about being alone..worry about being three to a bed in a shabby nursing home...make friends there...

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 03:21 PM

What kat referred to above probably should have read, intentional communities. This is certainly an option that I have considered. I have been well acquainted with one of them and can tell you that there is much more substance to some of them than you might imagine. As you would with any enterprise, be sure to check the track record. Are they financially viable? How do they generate their income? Have they been established for very long? Do they offer a no-strings, "try us to see if we and you are a fit" opportunity?

Clicking here will bring you to a partial listing of what is available. You may want to check out their home page to read "What's True About Intentional Communities:
Dispelling the Myths" which will give you a good idea of what they are about. An excellent printed guide can be ordered here.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Teresa
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 03:50 PM

I am walking a fine line--wanting to be as independent as possible, yet also desiring support. I believe this is possible. I like to spend a lot of time alone, but also like to know that people are around, and I can be a part of a supportive community.

I've lived most of my adult life away from my family. After realizing that my family and I need each other in very real ways, on all levels, I am relocating to be closer to them. I'll be "sacrificing" a lot, moving away from an area with a lot of folk and other happenings, but I have Mudcat!!! :D I'm nearing 40, and I'm now comfortable in my own person. I am going to do what I can to nurture relationships, and who knows; I may find a life partner. I'm ready for more of life's adventures, whatever they may be.

I hope this helps someone in some way. Thank you all, 'catters, for welcoming me back after an extended absense. [now wiping tears away] :)
Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 04:04 PM

maire-aine,
Kendall's recent illness has had me thinking along the same lines. I have family but all live a significant distance from me, my choice, not theirs. If I were hospitalized or confined home I would be alone. Friends would help but no one could live with me.Guess it would be paid help and hope they don't steal anything.

The House Of The Setting Sun is very real to me. But not in New Orleans. There is a home for retired opera singers who are down on their luck in Italy. Verdi founded it, I think. They live comfortably, sing when they feel like it, and everyone laughs at the tenors.

We wouldn't need much - a roof over our heads, decent food, privacy, and music. Health care would be nice, I guess. I suspect we could never agree on a location but cost of living would have to determine that to some degree. Maybe just a big house with lots of bedrooms and bathrooms with some common living area.

I know I could survive in a rest home, maybe even be happy. But I would rather live with friends than survive with strangers.

So...all the women catters sell their homes and collectively buy a large house with cottages on the property. Some live year round; some visit. Money???? Oh that!

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST,Kids-free
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 04:36 PM

Would anyone agree with me on the following ? Previously just about everybody had kids and the majority of folk had partners. Contraceptives didn't really exist and divorce was a no-no.

Nowadays we have CHOICES; to have kids or not, to live with a partner or live alone.

Having choices is a great thing. I have a dodgy relationship so I consider myself single for the important issues such as the future. I have chosen not to have kids. Great, I am happy with that.

I wouldn't want it any other way. ( Well, ok, I would prefer a mudcatter man.. but .. ) I do think, however, we are animals that were put on the planet to reproduce, and when we don't do that one misses out on that " planning for the next generation" bit. I believe that having kids / grandkids to take care of keeps you busy and gives you a continuity that us "kids-free" folk don't have.

Anyone agree ?

Bye the way, I just LOVE the mudcatter residential home idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:14 PM

All I can say is life is always full of surprises. You might just get what you need exactly when you need it Maire-aine. Don't despair or worry about what you can't change, change the things you can. Who knows, you might just find yourself a fine Mudcat man one of these days!
Take care of yourself. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Mickey191
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:34 PM

Okay Gals, I'll take the back bedroom-I'll cook tonight. This Mudcat Haven was a great idea.

My husband died 10 yrs. ago, (no kids) I have no one except a few cousins. But I have great neighbors (friends) who have seen me thru his sudden death, cancer & a heart scare. I had friends of friends (strangers) bringing me meals. But in the quiet hours of aloness I wonder what happens when I can't drive or because of a drought in the area -I may have to move. Moving scares the hell out of me-all the friends scattered. Nursing homes scare the hell out of me. I'd rather get a rope & find a tree, then end up there.

Jeri's last paragraph sums it up.You take care of today and have faith & just persevere. Keep puttin' one foot in front of the other with some great music to help you keep step. Try not to worry - Be Happy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:36 PM

Thanks, Allan, that IS what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: maire-aine
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 08:03 PM

Thank you, everybody, for your very thoughtful responses. Just so you know, I'm not depressed or anything, really. Just considering my options. Thanks for all the info on intentional communities. I even found one here in town. And I, too, like the idea of a Mudcat House/Compound. And while the idea of meeting a nice Mudcat man is appealing, I ain't holdin' my breath.

Cheers,
Maryann

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Cuilionn
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM

(Forcing myself oot-- er, OUT--of Scots for clarity's sake)

I have been a caregiver to others most of my life. Caring for others is meaningful and often satifying, but it can be physically and emotionally draining, and the story of the "maiden aunt" who dies penniless in an attic after a lifetime of caregiving is, unfortunately, played out by hundreds of thousands of women every year, as it has been for centuries. Although I'm technically "young yet", I live in my own version of the proverbial garret, and the dream of independent means remains just that, a dream.

As a voracious reader of history, however, I've also discovered that "intentional communities", particularly those formed by & for older women, have also existed for centuries. My favourites are the Beguines, (12-14th centuries, Europe), who pooled their resources to acquire housing, started cottage industries to ensure self-support, and used any aditional profits to set up programs for the good of their local communities, like schools and hospitals. Evidence suggests they also had a right jolly time of it and lived long, happy, meaningful lives!

Here's my vision of a workable format, to be based somewhere in Maine once we find and buy land and wade through zoning ordinances and such:   

We create a cultural centre/folk school (MY dream, here, so of course it's all CELTIC!), on a campus that includes a large organic garden & Caretakers' Residence/Bed & Breakfast/Ceilidh Palace. (An artists' colony, i.e. handful of wee cottages out back, available to Celts & MudCatters, is also an option.) We can work together as needed, feed ourselves from the garden and a few well-chosen critters (Highland Cattle, milk-goats, chickens/turkey/quail, sheep, and/or pigs), and subsist on the income from our B&B, cultural programs (incl. classes & concerts), and any other cottage industries we invent.

We'll market the place as a "Cultural Tourism Destination" combining the best of Maine's agricultural/maritime traditions with the best of Maine's Celtic immigrant heritage: harps, bagpipes, fiddles, language classes, bardic lore, etc.

In the off-season, we'll host conferences, retreat groups, and the occasional wedding or family reunion. We'll keep each other company, take turns cooking & cleaning, and check up on each other as needed. From May to September, we'll have to work the crowds, but the less-social among us can retreat to the gardens or sequester themselves in the cottages, doing light administrative work or other important tasks and projects. Rents & other logistics of habitation will be based largely on the "co-housing" concept, with a nice local barter economy of skills, goods, and services.

Now, all we need is a handful of pro-bono legal & financial advisors, four or five major grants, and--oh yes--that convenient parcel of land!

--Cuilionn, (who adds that men can be a part of this too, if they're willing to contribute to the gardening, cooking, and cleaning as well as the education and entertainment!)

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:05 PM

Life is full of surprises. Absolutely anything can happen. Accordingly I always try to behave sensibly in the present, but I don't worry too much about the farther future. Most of the things that I ever worried about happening in the future never did...other things happened instead. Some were good. Some were not. But I could not have predicted any of them. That's how it usually goes.

But that's just me. Anyone out there who wants to plan, go right ahead and formulate the best plan you can.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:38 PM

maire-anne, you have started one of the best threads I have read in a long while. I love, and am in awe, of the honest sharing of feelings and fears here. I cannot offer much, as this doesn't apply to me. But I am learning a great deal from what you have started. And to read the comments of Jeri, who has become a very important person in my world, gives me a whole new appreciation of this wonderful woman.

Should I ever hit the big lottery, Cuillon, you will have your land. Would that it could be true.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: open mike
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:50 PM

I, too, am intimately acquainted with intentional communites! I live with 8 other partners on 50 acres we went in on nearly 30 years ago. When i first lived "in community" (besides students sharing a large house during university days) i was in the community which co-edited Communities Magazine along with Twin Oaks. One of the most recent Communities Magazines is about aging and growing old in community. It is now published in Sandhills community in missouri.

There is another effort that i think deserves some attention and that is In Harmony in Corvalis, Oregon. Greg Brown loves this project & has doen several benefit concerts and c.d.'s for them. (One of them, Solid Heart, is based on a poem by one of the kids looking for a home) The goal is to create a space to house young people and older people who all need homes. and Senior center/orphanage type village.

***OH--BY THE WAY, there is 80 acres (2 40 acre parcels) adjoining the 50 acres we are on which will be on the market soon and would make an ideal location for such a Village!! it has a creek, southern exposure, meadows and wooded land, and...and....I showed the place to some people who are looking land for a group living space. they thought it had potential.

See also: Co-Housing--the co-housing movement is growing and many people are finding that sharing space is a great solution for economic, ecological and cultural reasons..google this and find out.

The Care Taker Gazette seems to be more about finding situations where you are taking care of someone else's property. This might not be the situation if and when WE get to need taken car of! nbsp;  1. THE CARETAKER GAZETTE       ... SECURE Website by clicking here: www.caretaker.org THE CARETAKER GAZETTE is a unique newsletter containing property caretaking and house sitting opportunities ...      http://www.angelfire.com/wa/caretaker/    2. THE CARETAKER GAZETTE      ... Each issue of the GAZETTE features a full-page caretaker profile describing the lifestyle, responsibilities and personalities of people in caretaker jobs. ...      http://www.angelfire.com/wa/caretaker/profile0396.html
   3. The Caretaker Gazette - Property Caretaking & Housesitting ...      Celebrating The Gazette's 22nd Year of Publication! Todays Date: February 9, 2004. Facts About The Caretaker Gazette. Free Report! ...      http://www.caretaker.org/   4. The Caretaker Gazette - Caretaker Profiles
      ... THE CARETAKER GAZETTE PO Box 540-M River Falls, WI 54022 USA [phone] [e-mail]. The Caretaker Gazette is in

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 12:36 AM

On March 18, 1993, I found myself living alone with my left arm out of comission. I learned how to medicate a cat one handed. (Put a blanket over the cat, and wrap your legs around cat and blanket. Use your good hand to pry open the cat's mouth, and your cast impaired hand to squirt the cat medicine into his mouth.)

I also acquired Donald. He was recently divorced, and in need of a place to live.
He lived in my other bedroom for 7 years. He could be seriously annoying. (He liked to clean the kitchen. This was good. He liked to start at four in the afternoon. This was not good.) I had someone there if something happened. (He chased a burglar away one night.) But, while we were friends, we never had a closer relationship. There's a lot to be said for finding a Donald.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:01 AM

Funny thing about "being alone". When I was a single mom with two kids I thought I was "alone". When they left home I knew that now I was truly alone. I worried and fretted about old age.

Then I got a little taste of it. I had knee surgery and was in bed for a couple of weeks. Well, the kids brought food and cleaned house. Friends came by and made dinner. Flowers were delivered from work. And last, but not least, the downstairs tennant checked in on me each day. I'm really not alone after all.

But, yes, ... we are working on plans for an "elders" community.    It includes a room for a live-in caretaker/nurse. We're calling it the "Last Resort".

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Penny G.
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 06:32 AM

When my youngest sister(50) and her husband move away to Kentucky in May they will be starting a new life on 29 acres with stream and woods.She is an artist and has encouraged me to join them there....she told me that they worry that I will have nobody to care for me when I get old...she is 7 years younger and is going to"save me a spot" if I ever decide to leave the hills of Virginia...I have felt the sting of loneliness but really will feel it more when the last of my chicks heads off to college next fall...it is nice to know that someone cares enough to make an offer to let me live on their land but I am not ready for Campbellsville just yet...I wonder almost everyday what sort of life I will have in my sixties and beyond..I think it is hard when friends are scattered all over...I will follow this thread for inspiration and direction...

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 07:16 AM

in sydney, i live in an artists community in the inner city. it was created by a bunch of artists who had previously run a co-op gallery in ultimo for 3 years. we selected the people from that gallery who were positive, and who had been prepared to work to help make the thing run.

our community is a co-operative, and we acquired land (two adjoining derelict factories)through a housing program. We put in a huge submission in the late 1980s and were granted enough money to purchase the land, demolish the existing buildings . we interviewed over 20 architects and chose two architects who designed us a great co-op.

The people who live here are mostly visual artists,and a couple of musicians. we have a property which is bordered by two streets, an open back yard with shared gardens, a co-op studio in the middle of the back yard, and 11 units. this year we will renovate one of the units (mine) into two townhouses - a 2 bedroom upstairs for my two younger children (aged 22 and 24) and a 1 bedroom self contained unit downstairs for me.

we also have friends who live nearby, and my best friend and her husband bought the house over the road from me.

this has been a good place for us - we have people here from all sorts of backgrounds and countries, and it has given us all a secure "old artist's home" to look forward to.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:00 AM

I raised 3 sons, on my own for the most part, from the time I was nineteen. Now that they're grown and gone, I'm discovering for the first time in my life the joys of living alone. I've never before been able to do whatever, go wherever, watch whatever (the remote is MINE now!), sing, dance play eat or be however I feel like in the moment!   I've never before brought home a paycheque without having all of it .. and more ... accounted for before I even cashed it. I've never before had such a quiet clean home that even stays that way longer than 10 minutes (although I have discovered that I DO create quite the mess all on my own, after all those years of thinking the only ones I picked up after were "them").

I have the time and space and peace and quiet to do alot of reading, contemplating, "inner work" -- and I've found such wonderful company and inspiration listening to that "small still voice within". How could I even hear it before, during all those noisy busy years? It's wonderful to discover who I really am, above and beyond the roles I've played for others.

It has it's drawbacks too, like no-one around to help with heavy yard-work, no-one to check in on you when you're sick. But I'm learning to let go of my pride and independence and ask friends and neighbours for help when I really need to. And it's heartwarming to see how much people really do enjoy being of service to others, especially in emergencies.

It's funny -- my opposite-sex childhood friends that would drop by every so often for a visit while I was married, (and in so doing, rock the "marriage-boat" quite a bit) are the ones who are STILL around and most happy to help me out with the repairs and heavy work. On the other hand, my "mate(s)" who promised to love and protect and look after me forever? HA!!! So, I've discovered that in the long run, cultivating friendships is far more valuable and rewarding than taking vows. AT least, that's my experience.

As for the future, I suppose I could spend a LOT of time worrying about all the concerns mentioned above. But instead, I train myself to be grateful for every single blessing in my life, and to stay in the here and now. These affirmations are VERY helpful when I find myself going to that "worry place" ---

I love myself, and so I live and love totally in the here and now, for I know the present moment is the point of power".

I am a powerful and dynamic woman! I handle all of my affairs with love, with wisdom, and with ease"

Today is one the best days of my life! Everything I need comes to me, and everything I need to know is revealed to me. Everything in my life always works out to my highest good.

And so it is. All is well in my world."

(with gratitude to Louise Hay, from her book "You Can Heal Your Life"),

I've been using those affirmations, and others, faithfully like mantras whenever negative thoughts would come up for about 2 years now. They are finally feeling like the truth these days. I AM changing, and I love it!

But I'm sure after the novelty of the single life wears off, I'll be ready to try "community living" again. I like the idea of a Mudcat "retirement home!"

Great thread ... thanks to all for sharing your stories! It's wonderful to know I'm "not alone" after all!   ;-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Tinker
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 10:04 AM

What a wonderful thread. At this stage, with four kids and a husband, I'm more likely to look back on my 20's when I was single and living alone as a time of haven. But my oldest will be a high school senior next year and I'm beginnning the road to empting the nest...
This fall as I had half a dozen Shellbacks visiting, treaties1 asked me what I was going to do with all the house when the kids were gone. My immediate response was to fill it with wandering Mudcatters. She's already volunteered to come and fill some of the space if it starts to ramble. Perhaps in time it really will take seed.....

tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 10:24 AM

I come at this in a different way, being alone (not by choice), but having spent time in Buddhist monasteries, and having thought about the dynamics of it a lot. I think there is a difference between what I would call loneliness, which can sometimes freeze you to the bone marrow, and being by yourself. Having also been in unhappy relationships, my experience is that it is better to be alone and reasonably happy, than together and being very unhappy. Being lonely is only marginally better than being together and being very unhappy, but it is better (marginally). Being together and happy is the best!!

I think people have different ways of being by themselves. Some people are nested alone, some are nomads who have stopped by the roadside for a few moments. Some see their being alone as a shock, others see it as being normal, others see it as being a burden, others a liberation. (The same is true in the opposite sense of people in relationships -- all sorts of different takes on what being in a relationship is).

I looked after my mother and father for the two years prior to their deaths (and spent a lot of time in nursing homes in the last nine months of my mother's life), and I was -- and am -- shocked that in so called modern societies we cannot find a way to have old people live and die in their homes in comfort, unless they have a lot of money. Why the yuppies aren't out on the streets protesting, I do not know.

It has also been my experience, maire-aine (thanks for the thread by the way), that people with good friends may be by themselves, but are not alone when trouble hits.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Bobjack
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 10:50 AM

Get a hamster.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:22 AM

I'd agree with Peter T. I believe Taoist philosophy says something about desire/ambition being the root of unhappiness. In some ways, I agree with that. When there's no way desire may lead to improvement, it will only cause frustration. "I want, but can't have." That's where loneliness springs from.

Where I think the philosophy is wrong is that desire and ambition CAN lead you to change your life so you can attain those things you desire, and they'll fit into your life.

I think most, if not all people who are fairly happy with their lives regret some aspects, some of the time. The "what'll happen to me if" aspect is most likely confined to those alone, whether they've chosen the lifestyle or it's been dumped on them. There is an infinite number of ifs just as there's a nearly infinite number of if onlys. You've got to get a good handle on the difference between things you can predict and do something about and an imaginary future hell, which ought to have a big old "Road closed. You didn't really want to visit anyway, did you?" sign hung at its entrance.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST,G-string
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:35 AM

Bobjack, please expand on "get a hamster". The vein of this thread is very enlightening and I would go so far as to say very helpful to persons that are either in a lonely environment or have been. I can - as it happens personally understand the benefits of a pet under these circumstances, and indeed having a hamster. In my case it has proved to be a very worthwile companion - be it for the noise of it going round in its wheel to break the silence of the long days, or the daily task of feeding it. Have you found the same with your hamster ?

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST,Buffy the Hamster slayer
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:42 AM

Hamsters are very zen.Unless they are 8foot tall.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 10:54 PM

Cuilionn, sign me up if you put it someplace warmer than Maine. It sounds lovely. I may not be around the place very often, though, as I can't abide roommates :)

I hereby solemnly swear that, should I win one of those CA Super Lotto Jackpots, I will set up a self-sustaining and internet connected farm that Mudcatter's are permanently invited to stop by for a week or a year or a decade, provided that you do your share of the weeding and milking.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 09:46 AM

Being alone sucks. Being with just anyone bites. Thats life.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 02:45 PM

Move to a town with a decent nursing college and post free rent for some student who is willing to help with chores and personal care. If you've made yourself be alone (and it IS a choice--billions of bloody people in the world, we're too crowded to be lonely) you are going to have to figure on paying for care. You can't expect anyone to do anything out of the kindness of their hearts when you've done nothing to inspire it.

That said, the conversation reminds me of one I had with my sainted Nana some time ago. I was driving across the midwest with a dalmatian in the back seat for 'rescue', and she thought it was the funniest thing that we (people) drive across the state for a dog, but forget our own families. That started a downhill slide of "Grandparent Rescue" and to this day I can't drive past another car with an elderly person in the backseat without thinking of her.

We sat laughing about webpages full of blurbs, and pictures of expectantly smiling elderly people. "EDNA= needs a good home, she's house-trained and great with kids..." "MORRIS= needs a home with no other old people and plenty of room to run..." "SYLVIA= needs Xtra care, she comes from an abusive home with children who never call..." Fundraising drives and collections for rubber sheets and cans of Ensure, the whole nine yards. It's probably more feasible than any "Old Folkies Home".

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 03:31 PM

ROTFLMAO. The seamy side would be that if they don't get taken in by _someone_, of course, they get put to sleep. "Save Ole! Give him a loving home today!! He doesn't eat much and will keep your television warmed up for you!"

I suppose its one of those things that shouldn't really be funny. Unfortunately, it is!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: open mike
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 03:32 PM

perhaps we should work on legalization legislation so we can have piped - in hookahs in our rest home rooms? looking at the big picture...

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Mudlark
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 01:37 AM

Well, I for one vote for voluntary euthanasia. Though I have many friends, all of whom I love dearly, I am basically a loner sort who needs lots of alone time. When my life partner of 40 years died suddenly I went into a 2 yr panic mode. My head was filled with What-ifs and Oh-my-gods...

Now, nearly 3 yrs later, I've had to deal with many of the very things I worried about, including going through major surgery, and somehow, sometimes alone, often with help from friends, I've gotten through surprisingly well. And I am coming to feel a sense of competence and self-confidence I wouldn't have believed possible 3 years ago.

I'm rarely, if ever "lonely," as such. I miss John still, every day, but I'm also comfortable with my own company. I have a lot of interests, too many actually to give any of them their due, and 3 dogs as merry companions.

My health is frail, and has been for some time, and I'm also experiencing trouble with my eyes now. As I live out in the country (and can't imagine living any place else), I still get panic spells about not being able to drive, not being able to take care of a country place, etc. But I'm getting better about coping with them. I give myself over to a day of panic control: mindless TV and microwave popcorn, and the next day do something active, like cleaning out the fishpond, or renovating a garden bed, and by the 3rd day I'm fine again.

I do think it's important to take what precautions you can. Like you, Maryann, I've made a will, left instructions about the dogs, left spare keys with friends, set up a system of daily, or near daily email contact, so if something happened to me, somebody would know about it soon enough to take care of the dogs...and hopefully, me. I carry a cell phone with me now, not only in the car, but when doing slightly dangerous outside stuff far from the house phone.

I've sung in enough care facilities to feel that the Hemlock Society would be my new best friend, should it ever come to that. My husband died in his sleep, after a pleasant, active day working outside. I can only hope that is my fate as well.

Thanks for this thread...it's good to know, in yet another way, that we are not "alone," a old-folkie support group! Lots of good ideas here...

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 02:19 AM

D&M alert...

i have been living without a partner for four years. My ex lives next door, and we share custody of the cat.

living alone was a shock - my children went overseas and i was living alone for the first time ever. I was very conscious of the empty space in the lounge room.

it took me a couple of years not just to accept it but to enjoy it, and what helped was friends.

loneliness is a trap which can force people into going into lousy intimate friendships to plug the gap.

i have some different circles of friends. four of us who are all artists went thru long term relationship breakups around the same time. we got together four years ago and organised to meet regularly as a group, every six weeks, and go out together, which we have done ever since. One is Lithuanian/aussie, one is Aboriginal, one is Croatian/oz, I am an Irish/scottish australian. Some of us within that circle meet more often than that separately. I have known one of these women for 32 years, the other two for 20.

I have an old friend who is a psychologist. She has organised a similar support circle and we meet every month. there are five of us - the other four are Jewish women in their early fifties. I turn 50 in a couple of weeks. Two of us are singers, the other three are psychologists. We meet every month and spend around four hours together, at one of our homes, talking. One of these women has cancer, and we give her support. We have talked out a number of very personal issues, and as the time has gone by have built up very trusting relationships. I'll be meeting with them tomorrow. it is a great time to get together and talk, and we have a lot of fun as well.

There is another group of us who get together - five of us who used to be in a choir together meet every 2 months to sing and talk. we had this one at my place today.

Having these regular circles has helped a lot. These circles are different from my other networks which are either old friends from the 70s, artists, people from the co-op, friends from work or folkies. The circles operate like regular reliable support groups, and we plan them to happen and keep happening.

Having these has helped me to become more emotionally independent and not to depend too much one a couple of close friends.

four years later i enjoy my home & peace & quiet. of course then the two younger kids (22 and 24) moved back in. we've got things set up so they live upstairs & I live downstairs.

when i was first on my own, i got back into reading. I poured a bit of energy into some artwork. I worked long hours. and i did a lot of folk music.

these things were good and filled up space. but now i feel i've relaxed into a lifestyle i think will continue on for a few decades.

when i spend time with my children, its a social occasion and we enjoy it. i don't want to depend on them, or them to depend on me.

I have talked about these circles of friendship as a way of talking about the major need for single people of any age - emotional connection & trusting friendships. i think its interesting to have friends from different circles and from different decades. These friendships are valued and cherished.   

blah blah...

i value the connections and friendships i'm making thru mudcat too!

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 04:12 AM

Freda: It sounds to me like you have the right idea. I worry about being too dependent on "old friends" and family. I know that right now my work absorbs most of my time and energy but I certainly feel the need to expand my world of connections. Thanks for motivating me.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 06:58 PM

enjoy it dianavan, it's fun, and is a good reason to keep pursuing your interests..

when my kids grew up i thought back to when i was 19 and picked up and continued a lot of the things i'd sacrificed over the years!

best wishes

fred

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:07 PM

Howdy Folks,

My appology for refreshing this thread, but I needed to save it until I had more time to contribute to it. And, thank you "Maire-aine" for starting this topic. I have to confess up front that I still have not had the time to carefully read all the previous contributions, but here's my early thoughts:

This subject is also very often in my mind. While I am very happily married (and lucky in finding "Bride Judy) I also know that it could change in a heartbeat. Both of my parents died in 2002. For the last years of their lives, I was the principle person in their lives, even though they lived in a nursing home four blocks from my home. I know ALL about nursing homes in my area. Some are horrible, some are wonderful. If at anytime anyone wants my advice on how to choose a good one, or reject a bad one, just PM me and I will give you some things to think about.

For whatever reason, my darling Judy has always declared that she knows that I will outlive her. Should that horrible thing happen, I DO have a long range goal in mind. Here it is:

Most of my working life, I have been a carpenter, builder and designer. I have a building in mind. Picture this: A very large rectangle of buildings. This would be a series of SEPARATE buildings, perhaps 20 feet square. Each of these "cottages" would be a bedroon, with a complete bathroom. These would all open onto a common boardwalk, again in the rectangle. Within this assembly of individual bedroom cottages, would be two other buildings, one a large and complete kitchen/dining hall. The other could be a large recreational area. The very center of this rectangle could be an open air "atrium." All of the walkways would be completly covered from the weather. I hope this overly simple description gives you the concept. It would require a sizable piece of land.

I see it working like this: a group of like minded people, of all ages and genders, pool their money and "live together." One of the residences could house a nurse. It would be a "collective", for lack of a better term. I have many single friends who are wrestling with this question. Their answers are varied, and some quite ingenious.

Anyway, I did want to throw this concept into the mixture of thoughts.
And I also want to thank you again for starting this very useful thread. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM

I'm posting as Guest because I am too well known here. I can't imagine anything worse than being thrown away because one is old and infirm. The ultimate indignity is one I will not suffer. I have the means to end it, and I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:54 PM

"Guest," I hear you loud and clear, and I also have had the same thought. A few years ago, one of my closest friends told me that he had terminal cancer. He and I had agreed to a mutual pact wherein which ever one of us was the "survivor," we would help the other to hasten his demise. As it happened, just before we set this plan in motion, this person had two people arrive at his door and declare that they both wanted to be there until the end. This indeed happened, and it ended quite wonderfully. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:04 PM

Take a look at this website: Flying Concrete. Beautiful, functional homes/cottages, etc. can be built very inexpensively by this methods. It'd be the perfect means for group building parties. The fellow who has promoted it so much touts it for low income, esp. and is avail. for telephone on-site consults for a low $20 per hour plus modest expenses! I am realy impressed by him and the products. He is very candid and helpful. We're thinking about adding onto our house with one of these, anyone wanna come party?**bg**

Cuillion, Deckman, I really like the sounds of both places!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:08 PM

Here are the low income houses he features on that site: clickety.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:41 PM

GUEST- 01:37 PM :

Is "being thrown away because one is old and infirm" something likely to happen to you in the present? Or are you contemplating some uncertain point in the future? I am not disagreeing with your sentiments, but it would be a waste to exercise that choice prematurely, I think.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 11:30 PM

kat: Wow! Lightweight concrete houses are amazing. If I lived in a warmer climate I, too, would build this way. As it is, the islands in the Gulf of Georgia get lots of rainfall. The cheapest way for us to build is to mill the fir and cedar when we clear the site. I'm not complaining, though. I love the smell of cedar.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 11:51 PM

dianavan, I love the smell of cedar, too, but...the fellow who has that site, started out in Colorado and has said he could figure out the thickness, etc. it would take to make them energy-efficient for colder climes. Heck, we've got adobe all over in Coloradoa nd New Mexico, some in high up and cold places and as far as I can tell, with his mix, rain is no problem. I understand about the cheapest and easist, though.:-)

I just want something with all of those soaring gothic arches and round roofs, nooks and crannies, etc. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 12:16 AM

Kat ... how would you hang pictures on the wall? (((BG))) Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 12:25 AM

woow - antonio gaudi meets fred flinstone - I want one! these are my dream come true.................

freda flinstone

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Teresa
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 01:15 AM

Just had to revisit this thread. thanks for all the candid discussion.

Well, I don't know whether I'll be alone or with someone in my life, but I intend to enjoy it, whatever happens. Right now, I am alone, and I had fun just doing what comes to mind. Last night I couldn't sleep, so went to various websites and played with learning Welsh and Irish. Stayed up till 4:00 am. This time alone has been fun, and I've had wonderful times with partners, too.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:13 AM

Laugh if you will, Roope, it works, even for a nail-pounder like you!**bg** Read on:

"All concrete isn't ugly, hard, cold and difficult to work with. There exists a whole range of light weight concretes "which have a density and compressive strength very similar to wood.They are easy to work with, can be nailed with ordinary nails, cut with a saw, drilled with woodworking tools, easily repaired . We believe that ultra-light weight concrete is one of the most fundamental bulk building materials of the future." A Pattern Language

Most lightweight concrete has a good R-value and is a good insulator of heat and sound. It is used as soundproofing in subway stations.

It has tremendous sculptural possibilities and is ideal for monolithic, wall-roof construction.

I feel that we need more intelligent building systems. I'm looking for a home that lasts 200 years, that you can maintain and remodel easily, and that uses mostly locally available, abundant materials.

Lightweight concrete fits the bill.

Concrete Manual

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:24 AM

I feel that we need more intelligent building systems. I'm looking for a home that lasts 200 years, that you can maintain and remodel easily, and that uses mostly locally available, abundant materials.

Locally available, abundant materials? Great!! I really love the look of those houses, kat, and I was wondering how they'd stand up to the climate up here in the Great White North. Now I see that with a few minor alternations, the same designs could probably be used for houses built of snow, ice, and those great Ontario car-boogers!

Only problem is, they'd melt every spring .....   :-(

Deckman, kat and others ... I love these ideas! Funny I was just thinking last week how the solution to the problems the single life brings for older people would be to pool money and resources, buy some land with some like-minded folk and create a self-sustaining community.
And then this thread showed up! HA!!

Keep it going, folks ... there's hope in these here words!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: maire-aine
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:35 PM

Dear folks,

WOW. I never imagined that this little post would take off like it has. Thank you, everyone for the encouraging words. The whole idea of communal living is an interesting idea that I'd never considered before. And I guess, like they say in real estate, location is everything. On the one hand, I can't imagine living anywhere but Detroit, but on the other hand, the winter weather gets less attractive every year. But, in the meanwhile, if you're ever in the neighborhood, you'd be most welcome to stop and visit for a while.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Allan C.
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:24 PM

maire-aine's recent post along with some of the other thoughts expressed here, bring up an interesting question that I have tried to answer for myself with only limited success. Let's just say for the sake of argument that a plot of land were available at no cost. Let's add that on that land there could be a central building that could house a few people either temporarily (until they built a place of their own) or possibly permanantly. Then let's pretend that it could be on the same continent upon which you currently reside - unless you would want to make an even greater change. Where would you want it to be?

I have thought about it and have come to realize that, although I would want the sense of being removed from the city, I would also want easy access to a good hospital. I think I would also want to be within reasonable driving distance to a folk venue, be it a pub or coffeehouse or whatever, where professional, performing artists might be seen. (This may be a moot point if one of the communitys' "industries" were to operate our own coffeehouse.) My own personal preference is for a place that has all four seasons; but I can foresee a time when dealing with three feet of snow or more could be much more of a problem than it is at present.

My own idea of where to locate this plot of land is something I will speak to at a later date. I am curious to see what thoughts you might have.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:35 PM

Allan C ... Here's where our fanciful dreams get real sticky. The ONLY place I would ever consider retiring is right here in MY beautiful Northwest ... where there are clams, and salmon, and mountains, and steelhead, etc. And, most likely the ONLY place YOU would ever consider retiring is going to be someplace where I would never go.

Then, let's add some other issues besides where. Let's start talking about things like: how large a group; hetro sexual; homo sexual; pets; broccoli eaters, accordian players, on and on and on.

And yet, I have witnessed some successful communes, but I 'gotta tell you ... it takes a lot of dedication and it takes a lot of work! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:56 PM

Well Deckman, I agree that the Pacific N.W. is a wonderful place (I grew up there) but the coast of B.C. is even better. Cleaner air and water, more abundance of seafood, more trees, etc. Vancouver Island is sooooooo big with lots of fertile valleys and all of those little islands are just too beautiful for words.

As the years go by, the winter months seem to be getting harder and harder. The grey seems to drag on and on. When my mom sold the family home and moved to Arizona I thought she was crazy. Somehow it doesn't seem that way anymore. I look forward to some time there very soon and even play with the idea of retiring there someday. I can't imagine being so far from the sea but the warm weather and the easy lifestyle is looking better all the time.

Still - My vote would be Vancouver Island.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 11:08 PM

I know of a 36 acre plot in North Central Florida. Anyone interested in starting an old folks commune?

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 11:08 PM

AHHHH yes. The wonderful British Columbia area. Growing up where I have, I am somewhat familiar with your neighborhood, the Campbell River area. And, it's true, the air is cleaner and the salmon are bigger, to say nothing of the halibut. But to move to a bone dry desert, just for winter warmth, is just too bizzare for me. Perhaps the answer is to establish TWO communes ... one North and one South! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: maire-aine
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 11:16 PM

I've thought about a smaller city in Kentucky or Virginia or Maryland, maybe. They still have winter, but spring comes earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Penny G.
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:05 AM

I love Virginia and it has all of the seasons..it is familiar and it's easy to get to just about anywhere..urban and/or rural..from Charlottesville to Blacksburg...many wonderful little places to hang hats...this is an interesting topic..I think native pride helps some of us lean toward old and familiar surroundings... (there is an interesting article in latest AARP Magazine on older people flocking to Mexico to retire

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 12:08 PM

I grew up in Vancouver and love it dearly, but Deckman, you might consider arranging for some desert time. You might be amazed, as I was, at how beautful it is, *including* the biology of it. I suppose I just aged faster than dianavan, but I can't take the full time rain anymore. My aim in retirement is to travel up and down the coast repeatedly.

(open mike's 80 acres of meadows and (year round?) creek was tormenting me all weekend. I very nearly went to scope it out on a whim.)

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM

I had the pleasure of spending a winter on Vancouver Island a couple of years ago, in Deep Bay (about half-way between Nanaimo and Campbell River). What an absolutely gorgeous place! Between the mountains, the ocean, the beaches, the humungous trees, the eagles and salmon and wildlife, (not to mention the mild weather), I really fell in love with the place.   And I'd go back for a visit anytime, but I'm not sure it would be the ideal place for a retirement community, because:

1) Although the winters are mild, hardly any snow to speak of, it's cloudy and gloomy and rains EVERY DAY from about Nov-April. NO kidding. Also, it's quite far north, so the days are very short -- sun rises around 8am and sets around 4pm for most of the winter. This aggravates any tendency toward SADS (Seasonal Affective Disorder).

In other words ... ITS D*** DEPRESSING! I was shocked to find I really missed the whiteness and brightness and cleanness and beauty of fresh-fallen snow (although I did NOT miss the shovelling!)

If it hadn't been for the rainbows I saw nearly every day, all that gorgeous scenery ... (Ooooo, here's some more (that's Englishman River Falls, near Parksville/Coombs) -- and the family of bald eagles nesting atop the huge fir tree outside my door, I'da been stir-crazy by the end of Feb!

Look how wet it is there ... people's roofs actually start growing grass and moss. In fact, in the quaint little town of Coombs, people actually graze their livestock up there!

2) The dampness aggravates any tendencies towards arthritis too, a concern for many people as they grow older.

3) The cost of living is relatively high, as a sizeable percentage of basic commodities have to be brought to the island by plane, ship or ferry. And I ask you sincerely ... could you bring yourself to shop at a grocery chain called "Overwaities"??? Couldn't believe that when I first saw it ...

On the up side, the Island is an absolute HAVEN for folk musicians and craftspeople and artists and new-agers of all types, who want to live and practice "alternative lifestyles" without raising too many eyebrows. No problem finding recording studios, coffee-houses, and LOTS of other folkies!

I was told by an old-timer on the beach out there one morning, there's only two kinds of people who are attracted to the Island -- newly-weds (on their honeymoon) and nearly-deads. Ha ha HA!! Yuppie-ville it is NOT!

Anyway, just some thoughts about Vancouver Island -- and thanks for the memories. The Pacific Northwest is probably similiar, right? And Virgina/Kentucky sounds good, but there's something about the "Bible Belt" that makes me a bit nervous. IS it really as much of a hassle to live there as some people make it out to be?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:09 PM

Oops, that last link won't show the photo, so here's another ... Goats on the Roof -- Coombs BC

He looks quite content in his solitude, huh?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:26 PM

Daylia, I certainly can not fault you for your comments regarding British Columbia, both the positive and the not so positive. It takes a certain kind of person to survive and thrive in six months of gloom and wet. But I, fortunatly, am one of those people. Here in the Seattle area, I live a couple of hundred miles South of Vancouver Island. That latitude change makes quite a difference.

Wherever I choose to retire, I plan on NEVER leaving it. I am NOT a travelor. As a youngster, I did not have a predicably pleasant place to call home. I've seen all the world I care to see. I spend my energy making my home as pleasant and as stimulating as possible. Fortunatly, I carefully explained this to Bride Judy before we married. Anytime she wants to travel, I smile, give her money, wish her well, and say that I'll have the fires burning when she returns. You couldn't pay me enough to get on a plane and go anywhere else.

I realize this might make me appear dumb and boring to others, but so what. And, if circumstances dictate, and you and I and others end up co-habitating, I promise I'll have the home fires burning when you return from your Winters journey! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: mg
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:32 PM

southwest washington is great...still fairly cheap land, not bad weather...I am thinking the Toledo/Winlock area..good farmland...not too bad sprawl yet....close to good hospitals in Olympia, Seattle, Portland....mg

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:50 PM

Good pics, Daylia! But please, lets not give everyone the impression that all the roofs grow grass for the goats. The market at Coombs just did that to draw the tourists. Looks like you had a great time though and The Englishman River is one of my favorite places to swim.

Deckman, Campbell River may be wetter and colder than the Seattle area but Campbell River is quite aways north up the island. If you stay mid-island or in the Gulf Islands there its hardly any different than Seattle.

Mary Garvey is right about S.W. Washington (I was born in Kelso). I really miss all that pasture and the many rivers. The Comox Valley on Vancouver Island is very similar. Real horse country. But the Comox Valley has pastures, the sea, rivers, lakes and mountains!

Yes, I love it here. The beauty is unsurpassed. I'm still trying to figure out how to hang on to what I have here and be able to spend Jan. and Feb. in the sun. I guess I just want it all.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 10:00 PM

Let me take a moment to summarize what I have seen so far with regard to location and then I'll add my two cents worth.

As was said above and elsewhere, it seems unlikely that any one site would suit all. In the USA the Mudcat membership, which is the only representative means I know by which to estimate the geographical census of folk music enthusiasts, is not at all spread evenly. In general terms, the number of folkies parallels the overall population numbers, with certain notable exceptions. Over all, members become more and more sparse the further west you go until you get to the western, coastal states where there is a dramatic increase. (Consider for a moment that the huge state of Texas only has four active 'Catters at last count; whereas there are probably five times that many within fifty miles of Philadelphia, alone.)

It would appear from this that, at minimum, the USA would require both an eastern and a western site, which would have the additional effect of accommodating visitations to and by relatives and friends.

Clearly, there are some major issues with meteorological climate. Some folks who are quite happy with long winters and short summers have little wish to live where things are somewhat, if not entirely, the opposite. The reverse is also true. For some, there is no middle ground.

As was indicated by the reference to "the Bible Belt" in one posting, (which, by the way, is usually defined as relating to states in the deep south, with Texas as the keystone,) the issue of local sentiment could also be an important issue. There are some communities that simply would not look upon such a thing with open mind. A somewhat related issue is that of zoning regulations.

In view of these considerations along with those listed in my previous post regarding hospital access and folk venue availability, one could hardly be arbitrary in selecting a prospective site. My own sense regarding an eastern USA location is that certain areas in Virginia or in northern North Carolina might have the most to offer. I would have to bow to more knowledgeable folks regarding the western states, Canada, the UK, Australia and elsewhere.

If you are as serious about this as I am and if you are interested in pursuing a location such as I have proposed, please PM me. Who knows? We may be onto something!

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 10:45 PM

Allan, thanks for taking the time to assemble the geographic issues. Am I the first one to think of this: several mudcatter communes, for lack of a better term. These would obviously be founded where the assemblage of persons, and monies, and lands would occur. But then ... think "time share here" ... perhaps various members/residents could move from location to location, as their seasonal needs dictated. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:29 PM

I could never live anywhere but Maine. If only they could do something about those 9 months of winter and 3 months of hard sledding...

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 02:49 PM

Now don't exclude Alaska from the possible locations folks. It is possible to follow a completely subsistance lifestyle up here. Land with good forest and water is plentiful, taxes are low, the state still gives residents a share of the oil revenue each October, and the long winter nights make for fine music around the fireplace. The air is pure, the water is clean, the fish and game are abundant, and we have all four seasons (June, July, August and Winter).

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: open mike
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 03:45 AM

The owners of the neighboring 80 acres (with year round stream) called yesterday to say it is definately going to be put on the open market
soon. I am open to giving tours to any one interested!! It is above the valley fog and lower than the elevation where heavy snows are regular.
There are 3 towns within an hour from here, and many oportunitiese to make and hear music...we are 3-4 hours from the Pacific ocean , and
the national forest is in the "back yard" here and mountains, rivers and lakes are found nearby. We could do a time share and have a city house and a country house!

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:45 PM

SOunds like heaven, but isn't it 'sposed to fall off into the ocean someday?**bg** Really does sound lovely!

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 09:07 PM

Alaska Mike - I like that lifestyle, too, but what are you going to do when you're (you know) older? Won't that cold start to get to you? Or perhaps, its not so rainy and damp. Maybe cold but sunny? What part of Alaska are you talking about? I just can't see a group of geezers relocating to Alaska.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:14 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:01 AM

being alone can be a thing that happens to people as they age. and in this western society, people who age are not surrounded by family as they are in other cultures.

it is easy at any stage of life to get spooked and become a cardboard version of yourself, keeping polite and fitting in with what's happening. you can end up reflecting other people'sagendas and being a part of someone else's plans. as i write this, my cat is sitting on my right arm - her plan for me is that i will be her cushion!
                              
living close to other people is good - and close to transport, entertainment etc - maximum independence is also good.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Bobjack
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:39 AM

Buy two glove puppets, insert hands, have a three way conversation with yourself. Err....... I'll get my coat!

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:41 PM

I live on Saltspring Is BC and yes it can be very dreary and depressing in the winter. I have a teenaged daughter going into gr 12 and then I will be on my own. The thought of it scares the hell out of me...I don't do well on my own. I don't think I will stay in the Gulf Islands..too expensive for one thing and I'm very tired of depending on BC Ferry's. The cost of riding the ferry prevents me from doing so many things I'd like to do on the mainland.

LL

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 06:10 PM

I'm refreshing this thread ... not because I have the time to say anything right now ... but because it's a vital topic and I want to return to it in a few hours. (I sure hope the mudcat police don't come over to my house and paint bad words on my walls ... but I know that catters are far too nice to do that). Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 06:24 PM

Lyrical Lady - join the club

There have been lots of studies about empty nesters but none (that I know of) about single parent empty nesters. Are you a single parent?

When my kids were your daughter's age, it was a very difficult time of change. For the first time in years, I had to make decisions based on what was best for me, not what was best for the family. I'm still struggling with this.

On one hand, I want to stay in the city because my kids have easy access to me if needed. On the other hand, I'm sick of the city and want to return to island living. Oh, what to do.

Don't forget - city living isn't much good for anything but jobs and education. Once established in the city, however, its mighty hard to get out of it. Best wishes for your new life. Its kinda like being eighteen again.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Jeanie
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:15 PM

Lyrical Lady & Dianavan: I am soon coming up to the same situation, and, as you say, Dianavan, I find the whole prospect very exciting and "kinda like being eighteen again". My daughter is 15 and, because she has had to share her time in living in two houses, with me and with her father, she is very keen to establish a base of her own as soon as she is old enough, and then just come visiting each of us. Once she starts college and the delights of student bedsits (!)I will happily 'downsize' where I live (I'll need to, to finance her) and live somewhere cheaper and away from London.

I'm a long way off retiring age - in fact, I don't intend or want to retire, ever. I do a little teaching, but most of my work now is freelance translating, working from home, and none of my clients are in this country. It's the kind of work I can do anywhere, just as long as I can plug in a laptop and connect to the internet. So, the exciting prospect for me is that I could wander around the world and end up anywhere. Needless to say, I rather like this idea of the "Mudcat Time-Shares" !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: GUEST,Ely
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:56 PM

Perhaps we need a "chain" of communities, like the Shakers. Those of you in frigid climates can come to Texas for the winter, and we can come visit you when things get out of hand here in the summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:03 PM

Howdy ... Bob Nelson, here again, with more time. I've been constantly thinking about the various issues that this thread raised. I want to make a major SHIFT in the focus.

I'll warn you right now, this shift will not be pleasant. This shift could well be very uncomfortable for you, but it's still a shift that I feel needs to be made, based on my personal experiences.

Some background: Both of my parents died in 2002, Mother was 88 and Father was 94. Throughout all their lives, I was very involved in their lives, by choice. I have one brother who was not, with damned good reason.

During the last dozen years of their lives, they (we) sold their home and moved in and out of various 'retiremnt homes.' As they grew older, and more feeble, their daily care needs increased. For the last eight years, they lived in a WONDERFUL retirement home four blocks from where I live. This home, bless their souls, is staffed by the most proffesional and wonderful ANGELS that God ever placed on earth. This is not an overstatement. I know whereof I speak.

My Mother died insane, my Father died five months later. Without the care and MEDICAL attention my parents received, no one would have survived, including me.

My whole point is this: As we talk about a possible retirement community of friends/soul mates, singer buddies/ whatever/ we'd better get REAL about what can happen at the end of ones life.

We can all pool our money and have great dinners and hoots in a great housing facility, but what happens after MY physical condition demands that I need more care?

I think this is a very valid question.

Having said all this "bummer" stuff, please understand that I am seriously interested in this issue. And I do hope that you'll all stick with me and let's get the conversation going onto stage two.

CHEERS to you all, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: maire-aine
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:30 PM

Thank you, Bob. You've brought the thread right back around to what led me to start it.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:30 PM

Deckman - I am quite close to retirement, but not for the care home (I hope). Sooo - although I am planning retirement, I am also interested in helping to create an independent living situation for myself in the future. As I said before, the idea of the "last resort" with a live-in caretaker seems good to me. Realistically, this will be close to my children.

I will probably keep my place in Vancouver, maybe get a time-share somewhere else until the need for the "last resort". How do time shares work, anyway? Wouldn't we all want to be south for the winter and north for the summer?

I'm still hoping for a cluster of cottages around a green.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:36 PM

It is a large-scale problem. Older people as they grow less able need a web of support from others; but we are leading the edge of the multiplying demand called the Baby Boom; always the most assertive and self-centered section of the population, we have collectively done all kinds of impact on the way things are done. Those older than we are scarcely capable; those younger are fewer in number, I believe. So as the Boomers grow needy in their declining years, and those capable of filling those needs are fewer, more demands will be hitting fewer people, until the Boom curve starts to fall off the edge of the Wheel.

Some will have money, or their children will, to cope with it; others have not managed to build reserves and somehow I suspect that 2010 to 2030 will be a rough period as we boom our way over the edge of time. Gawd only knows what we'll do after that -- start a revolution on some distant planet or something... :>) But the transition on the whole isn't looking graceful from here, and a lot of people are going to be facing the harsh reality of it in the near future, bith in this culture and in others such as China and India (although I confess I am ignorant as to whether they had Baby Booms after WW II or not).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:40 PM

One idea is not to isolate ourselves as a certain age group. People of all ages need interaction with, well, people of all ages. So...younger Mudcatters could also live there and take care of the rest of the Mudcatters!**bg**

Seriously, Bob, you have brought up a very good point and one we need to discuss. I am only half jesting, above. I wouldn't want us to be a bunch of old geezers and geezettes just singing about the old days.:-)

I have another concern and that is how to make the place self-sustaining, hopefully to the point where people who do not have money to put up to live there, might be able to barter/get scholarships, and/ contribute in other ways.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:04 PM

I have read and I understood all your postings since my previous postings of about four notes ago. I don't care how you cut, it ALL, eventually, comes down to money. It's $$$$ that do or don't make the world go round. Few people, except those like me who have actually gone through this total process, realize the huge amounts of money involved.

At the end of my parent's lives, they both needed round the clock, 24 hour a day, seven day a week staffing. This staffing included: medical nurses, care givers of many types, laundry, food, counseling, dressers, undressers, bathers, toileters, on and on and on.

As I said, the reality of this story is not pretty ... EXCEPT ... that it can be JUST FINE.

As my Father breathed his last, I was there, holding his hand and singing him a song in his native Finnish. He and I went through this experience together.

My point of this very personal story is to tell you all, that with the right circumstances, the conclusion of our lives can be, and should be, just as good. It doesn't get any better than that.

But, and here's where we started, you need to plan now.

I've heard for the last five years that "Elder Care" is the fastest growing industry in America. I hope I'm gone before the "baby boomers" start to go ... I'm 66 years young now.

I'm shut for now. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:41 PM

Amos: But the transition on the whole isn't looking graceful from here, and a lot of people are going to be facing the harsh realityof it in the near future, bith in this culture and in others such as China and India (although I confess I am ignorant as to whether they had Baby Booms after WW II or not).

We are in way more trouble than either China or India. In their culture, each family is responsible for their elderly. The responsibility is built into their traditions. The extended family is their safety net. Everyone has clearly defined roles. They nurture dependency on one another.

We, on the other hand, value independence and the notion of romantic love.   Hmmmmmmmm..........

d

d

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:22 AM

Well, there you go -- the web of dependency is built into some cultures and absorbed like mother's milk. For others it is shock to discover that it is needed and some never know the grace to find those friends. But whether by birth or by friendships built between strangers, the relationship is only there because it is decided on, put in place by the participants -- something I know that seems obviousbut always bears repeating.

As an aside, does anyone know if there were similar post-war booms in population in India or China?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:27 AM

Bob, I am sorry, I didn't mean to make light of your concerns. Those are very important. It may be that each of us would have to know, that at some point, we would not be able to remain in the intentional community and make plans accordingly, i.e. when continuous care is necessary, etc. Hopefully it would be close enough so that others could visit from the community.

I know there is a boom here in "assisted" living; if there were a way to fund it, perhaps that would be a way to fund the whole shebang...start an assisted living and independent living community for folk musicians and lovers of folk music, those in the groove, so to speak? I don't know, I am just thinking out loud.

open mike, how will your community deal with such as Bob has brought up? Anyone know how some of the established communities do so?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:40 AM

Amos: Just in case no one has told you this TODAY ... you certainly speak well. Thank You.

Kat: I don't have a clue what you are talking about. You have NEVER spoken "light" of any of my concerns. I always regard your comments highly and respectfully.

Do you know what we are talking about here folks ...a whole social revolution!!!!

With a lot of dedication, committment, money, energy, and stupidity, we might be able to establish a "role model folk singers retirement home." SSSHHHEEEUUUUHHH! I'm tired. I think I'll make some postum and go to bed! Love, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:11 AM

at our co-op, we've talked about using one of the properties to provide free accomodation to a couple of nurses, who could be close and keep their eye on any people who need care, in exchange for the accom.

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Penny G.
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:55 PM

Here is a link to an article from today's New York Times/older women pooling their resources...might work well for some old friends.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/national/27RETI.html

Subject: RE: BS: Being alone, how?
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM