Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?

Subject: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: eleanor c
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM

Dear all,
Please help my quandary?? I have for a while played a Lowden 012C as some of you will have the dubious pleasure of knowing, which has one of the longest scale lengths in the book, unbeknownst to me a week ago, when I got to try a short scale (24 and3/4 ") and found I could play clearer, better, pain free and more accurately compared to my own beloved box. I have small ladylike fingers ( about the only bits of me that are)

I feel a change of guitar coming on. I have been struggling unnecessarily. (Actually the very accomplished Julie Ellison said something which made me wonder about this.) So.......can you guys please suggest a good short scale guitar which isn't as small as a Parlour and is not too quiet ?? Maybe someone has one to sell? Answers on a mudcat please.....
Ta!
Eleanor C

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:24 PM

I'm not the one to suggest specific models, but can suggest that if you tune all the strings down a semitone and capo at the first fret you'll effectively have a "shorter neck" on your present guitar. If you normally use a capo, you'll need a second one for key changes, since you're using the first capo as a "new nut."

That will let you play a "shorter neck" for a while to judge whether it's really what you want.

You'll have to "imagine" the inlay dots moved one fret as well, if you refer to them to see where your fingers are.

If your exposure to a shorter scale was brief, you may find that there were some other changes that weren't as apparent as the scale length, such as neck width, depth, etc., and "converting" your present weapon to a shorter effective scale length for a bit may make those other things more apparent.

(This is not really an original idea, as a friend used to use it for small children who wanted him to "teach them some guitar.")

John

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:29 PM

by coincidence..
tonight i've been rummaging through my electric guitar collection
comparing neck dimensions..
i've got big 'blunt instrument' fists & short thick fingers
and although I can cope ok with a well set up lower action
Fender style 25 1/2" scale length.

the guitars i find easier to play are 24 3/4" scale
[ 1 5/8" @ nut
2"    @ 12th fret
2 1/8 @ 22nd fret
with flatter radius fingerboards..]

though, i've never bothered owning a 'real' Gibson..

and for some odd reason..
guitars that conform to this ideal dont all feel equally comfortable, or easy for me to play ..
even though the neck thickness & shape profile seems to be the same..

Probably, just the slightest millimetre of well worn or newly sanded
bevelled edge gives the advantage over a flat sharper edged fingerboard..
..and i'm not too keen on overglossed neck finishes either..

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: number 6
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM

Check out the Taylor L9 Dreadnought. I beleive they are now also putting out short scale models in their 600 and 300 series.

sIx

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 11:53 PM

Don't take anyone's word for what would be a good guitar for you--try a lot of different instruments, and just keep trying until you find one that suits you--this business of buying a "name" brand guitar, based on reputation is a bad idea--hate to say this, but if you'd been a more careful and critical shopper, you wouldn't have that damned Lowden now--

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:41 AM

Gibson is about the only "name" brand guitar with much in the way of 24 3/4" scale necks. Most Gibson "slope-shouldered" dreadnoughts like the J-45 are 24 3/4". The "square-shouldered" models like the Hummingbird are 25 1/2". Some of the smaller-bodied "L" series guitars are 24 3/4", but not all of them. GUEST in the post above this one is an arsehole.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: GUEST,Hess
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:02 AM

Tried the 3/4 Martin (no - not the'backpacker'), but much refer the Baby Taylor - very sparce no frills look, but feels very 'alive' - all a matter of personal taste I guess!! Makes for a lovely travel guitar too, and not too expensive.
Hess

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Grab
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:42 PM

I don't think Lowdens have an over-long scale, Eleanor. 25 5/8" is slightly longer than standard, but not by much. Guitars with a 14-fret join are often 25 1/2" IIRC, so there's not much in it. But fitting the instrument to the player is always the key, so whether or not it's a "normal" size, "normal" is too long for your hands. :-/

If you like the Lowden sound, maybe the S size would suit you better? 630mm scale equates to a gnat's whisker over 24 3/4". And you'd still have the same kind of Lowden sound that you've enjoyed on the O12. Lowdens come up on Ebay occasionally. You could also join the Cult of Lowden group on Yahoo - they may be able to advise something to help with your O12, or they may know of an S for sale somewhere.

Link to Cult of Lowden group

Another thought. The CoL members recommended Newtone strings for Lowdens, so I've used them for a while and they sound great. They're also slightly lower tension than other strings, so that could help per JohnInKansas's suggestion.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:00 PM

The Big Baby Taylor is not quite full size, (I think it's 15 16ths size) so it may be convenient to play, but I hate the sound.

The Lowden has a particular sound, and although I like the Gibsons just as well, their sound is very different. I think I would say to go for the sound above all.

There are a lot of 24 7/8 scales out there - one of my favourites is my Mugen (think "Daion") THE '78 which has that length, and quite a few Martin clones use it too (although for example a Martin OM1 is 25 1/2). It also has a big boom that suits open tunings, with some suggestions of the Lowden "big bell". You will get one without huge expense if you lurk ebay (worldwide) looking for a Daion Mugen or Yamaki THE '78.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:16 PM

I am not sure why you think the GUEST is a--well-whatever--I am inclinde to agree with the thought--

Over the years, I have had quite a number of adult students who bought guitars on someone else's recommendation, rather than because it made them happy--Eleanor's problem may not actually be caused by the length of the scale, but, whatever the reason, she just isn't comfortable playing the thing--

There are a lot of other guitars out there, and it can be a lot of fun finding the one that's right, even if it doesn't happen to be a Lowden--

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: eleanor c
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:51 PM

Dear all,
Many many thanks for all your generous advice which I have only just begun to research and digest.

I think the GUEST who criticized my original choice has got a point!! I bought the Lowden solely on its quality of sound, thinking I'd get used to its big neck as I became a better player. I did improve and I did get used to its neck, but that doesn't mean a neck better suited to my hand isn't going to make my playing improve further!! My middle finger, for example, is the same size as a lot of mens' fourth finger, so it has to make a difference.

The short scale guitar on which I made this discovery is now mine, it's a dirt cheap Chinese Lamaq that I got for travelling, and I can play it much better than the big Lowden. It sounds inferior of course ( still good for the piffling price) so I'm after a posh equivalent.

I will make sure & try each model that you guys kindly suggest, should make a pleasant few days' work!

John in Kansas - the Capo is on! Thanks ----good idea

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:03 PM

John In Kansas' idea is a really good one, though, at some point you may run out of frets -- especially if you already capo up for singing.

I think that you have your finger on the problem -- shorter scale guitars are usually quieter than their longer scale counterparts.

Interesting thing happened to me though. I have an HD28 that is VERY loud, and a Gibson LG2 that is on the quiet side. I decided to take the Gibson to a very loud jam. It did have new medium strings on it, but I was quite surprised at the number of compliments I got on the sound of it. Others were obviously hearing it quite well.

LG2s like mine can be found pretty easily between $800 - $1200.

I'm not sure where you live, but I have a very reputable builder who is a relative unknown. He builds guitars to suit and is not that expensive. (I believe that Mooh, who posts here often, was lucky enough to have hitched his wagon to a now-famous builder before the fame made his prices outta sight. It can still be done)

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:04 PM

...oh yeah, and from what I understand, a number of Seagulls are short scale.

I don't know what price range you're hoping to stay within.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:44 PM

Yeah, but no seagull will sound like a Lowden.

There is a Daion THE 71 on ebay (UK) right now: it might be worth chasing it at least to play it and see what you think.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Mooh
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 07:31 AM

John Hardly...True enough about me and my wagon...LOL!

If you can get it made for you, of good to great woods and design, and don't mind waiting for it to open up a bit, try the latest guy I've hitched my wagon to, Josh House at www.house-guitars.com. The previous wagon hauler was Marc Beneteau, a stellar builder, and worth a long lingering look. Both these guys I'm sure would build what you want. There are lots of others, Google luthier for a mind-numbing array of options.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM

Pretty much all the "double-O" (actually double-zero) Martins are short scale - except maybe the "Women in Music" ("DB") series, I think.

With triple-zero Martins it gets confusing as hell. Essentially, 14-fret 000's in the "Standard" series and higher are short scale. All their 12-fret 000 models, and 14-fret 000's in the "16" and lower series are long scale. Clear as mud?

If I felt the need for a short scale and were well heeled, I'd get either a new Collings 00-2H or an old Martin 00-18. Or the Martin 00-18V. If I felt the need for a short scale, and were not so well heeled, a Martin 00-15.

Just one opinion.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 01:00 PM

Re the capo to simulate a shorter neck, I'd presume that if you went more than one, maybe two frets, you'd simulate a uke rather than a guitar.

The post I had ready a couple of hours ago when I lost the 'cat connection while composing doesn't look as great as it did when I wrote it, but what I said follows - what I meant to say maybe ....

A couple of friends who've bought upgrade guitars recently made quite a point that picking a brand name and style is just a starting point. One claimed to have played more than two dozen individual instruments of the same Martin model before he found the "right one" to buy.

He helped another less experienced player with her selection, and insisted on the same sort of trial and error selection. I think I recall that he sent her on at least one 100 mile road trip to try one specific guitar he thought she'd like.

While it may be that this guy just likes playing other people's guitars, the advice to be sure you play-before-pay seems reasonable. The contention that "every guitar has its own personality" may be a little overblown, but seems to have at least an element of truth.

The often recommended step that these two omitted was to take a friend to evaluate what your prospective guitar sounds like to an audience or to others playing with you. John Hardly's comments (04 Mar 05 - 02:03 PM) about compliments on his "not very loud" guitar are not unusual. The one that sounds best to the player may not sound best to others in the vicinity. (The guitar isn't the only source of disagreement between player and audience about how good it sounds, but...)

The "audience test" is frequently omitted because:

1. You have to have a friend whose opinion you respect.

2. You can respect an opinion that doesn't agree with yours, so your friend's "values" should agree with yours - or have known differences that you can allow for.

3. You have to have a friend who won't get too p'd off when you ignore the advice given.

John

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

EleanorC, you don't say what you're using the guitar for, or what kind of market you're in (cheap 'n' cheerful, quality production-line or handmade instruments). If you like the Lowden sound (and who wouldn't, except someone with cloth ears? :-)) why not talk to George? http://www.georgelowden.com is his new website.

As well as TOTR instruments made by George himself, his guys are now producing a similar range to the 'old' Lowdens and options are available (neck shape certainly is one, and scale length may well be). Give 'em a go - nowt ventured, nowt gained.
S:0)

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM

I apologize for having called GUEST above an arsehole. I totally missed the word "dubious" in eleanor c's original post. It sounded to me like GUEST was being unnecessarilly insultive toward both the instrument and eleanor's judgement.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: DADGBE
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:20 PM

Hi Eleanor,

There are many reasons why a guitar playes hard. Scale length is only one of them and often not the prime reason. Some others that come to mind are nut height, bridge saddle height, frets, string guage, etc.

Before you sell an instrument you love, you might take it to a competent luthier to have the action optimized. It'll cost a bit but far less than replacing it and you might find that it's improved enough to make it worth keeping. If you finally decide to sell it, it'll be worth more.

Good luck,
Ray

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:11 PM

I have a Fylde Oberon - not for sale, but it has exactly what you're after.Try this link http://www.fyldeguitars.com. However, like others here, I would suggest you try different remedies first. I love my Fylde mind you.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: eleanor c
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM

Hi Bee Dubya Ell, yes I meant those people I see at regular sessions who get to hear me play tunes, that is certainly a dubious pleasure I'm sure! As for my judgement, I don't mind people casting aspersions, ( thanks for defending me though, very gallant!) nearly every musician I meet has more experience than me, although in my defence I didn't buy the box for its snob value; just cos it sounded so good.

Strollin' Johnny, I'm in the qual production line market I guess, can't afford to commission G.L. himself at this stage. I'm a budding fingerpicker who writes and covers instrumentals & plays in several tunings, pretty committed, been playing hard about 15 months, doin' my best to improve.

Guys many thanks for all these model suggestions - I intend to try out all you suggest !

John Hardly - I Tried an old L G2 Gibson today, very nice experience, in the UK where I live they don't seem to come in as cheap as you say alas, I've not found one here for under the equivalent of $2000 US and today's was £1250, about $2400.Maybe I could get one sent over! Gibson acoustics seem to cost a lot new here as well..The Working Man's J-45 , eh? He must be a very white collar worker. My guitar hero Jorma Kaukonen played/s one.
Also tried a small body Guild from the 60s. The neck on that felt really too deep , very uncomfortable.

And re the Audience test, I get the shop assistants to serenade me on the axe in question so I can hear it. They seem to like being asked....

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:38 AM

I bought a taylor 30th anniversary model, which has a shorter scale length. I found that it has a great volume and tone. I play it in CGCGCD tuning mostly with light gauge strings and the lower ones don't wimp out.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:09 AM

Eleanor, the options I mentioned are available on the standard range (i.e. the range that includes the guitar you have currently, which aren't made by George personally, but by his craftsmen). BTW, they aren't production-line instruments, all Lowdens are hand-made! The standard range currently starts at around £1,800 - probably not a lot more than you paid for your guitar (assuming you bought yours new). As you clearly love your Lowden (and they have a sound and build quality that's second to none, don't they!) why not have a talk to them? A coupla quid for a phone call's not such a lot? :0)

Also, DADGBE's made a very good point, that set-up is pretty much the key to playability. If your Lowden's more than a year old it may well be in need of a set-up, having 'settled-in' for a while. A good starting-point would be to take her to a good luthier/guitar tec and spend 25 quid or so on a good set-up. Might cure your problem or, if not, make her more saleable if you decide to change.

And finally, if you do decide to change, don't get led by the nose towards a particular brand just because someone else says they're good - it really is different strokes for different folks. Go around the instrument-shops and try lots of different guitars. Also, if you have a friend who plays, take them with you and get them to play while you listen from the front - guitars do NOT sound the same from the 'audience' side as they do from the 'playing' position!

Good luck lass.
S:0)

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:01 AM

For setup, try Brian Rodgers, Chatham, Kent.

PM me and I'll pass on address. Economical, obliging, and good enough to have some big names bring their instruments silly distances.

For sound, I am amazed that you simultaneously like Lowden, which are usually very resonant, and Gibson, which are usually quite dry and woody. Lowden are much used by those working in open tunings.

If you hunt about you ought to be able to get a WM 45 for a lot less than the Gibson you saw, but my prediction based on what you say here is that the (typical, anyway) Gibson sound will not be as much to your liking as others.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: eleanor c
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:02 AM

Hi Johnny,
Golly looks like I got a good deal on my Lowden then! Peach guitars, Braintree, Essex, must be home of good deals!I'll give GL a call, thanks for your thoughts,

Hi Richard, well I could tell the Gibson offered a totally different sound-world but it was a pretty amazing one too - totally different voice - perhaps good for when I'm picking my totally inauthentic Blues from the A roads, roundabouts and retail parks of the British 'burbs,
Actually my Lowden in open tunings I can handle much better as the open tuning hand positions don't seem to need pure whole-fist wraparound fingerboard coverage.


Guess I need one of each ;-]
And Phil- I'll find one to try, thanks!

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:08 AM

RB writes "Yeah, but no seagull will sound like a Lowden."
I'm not sure that I agree. Seagulls can hold their own against many top line brands. A few of them can even surpass most. Sound of course is subjective, but cost and value place Seagulls (AKA Godin) in high regard among many Mudcatters.
          Obie

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:59 AM

I have heard some respectable Seagulls. Never top-line in the sound department. Some quite poor.

All seemed to have been susceptible to unstable tuning of the B string. This may be related to short scale and so low string tension.

Perhaps.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM

I hear a few Seagulls regularly. They all would benefit from saddle surgery to get rid of the pick-up...it sucks to tone right out of the thing. Bang for the buck, at least in Canada, they're tough to beat.

One consideration, if you can locate a 12 fret model, they sometimes "feel" shorter scaled even if they're not, simply because the nut is a bit closer to the player. My 12 string is a case in point. Better balance on strap and lap too.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:09 PM

If I've learned one thing in 45 years of playing the guitar, it's that the old adage of "You get what you pay for" was never truer. Seagulls are pretty good as far as the cheap end of the market goes, but comparing comparing them to high-end instruments is like comparing a Ford to a Ferrari - Fords might be 'good cars' but they'll never be Ferraris. Same goes for musical instruments. IMOH.

Richard, I have a Lowden O-25 and a Martin J-40, very different but I love 'em both for the fact that they ARE so different. No point having two guitars with the same sound?
S:0)

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 05:02 PM

Oh indeed Johnny, variety is the spice of GAS, but it seemed Eleanor was in love with the sound of her Lowden but keen to replace it because of handling problems. If so a Gibson would have been a surprising swap, because the sound is so different in kind.

However, I would differ with you a bit on "You get what you pay for". Mostly, you don't get what you don't pay for, but paying a lot does not guarantee. I know of at least one player with a very expensive Taylor (not either of the ones I'm selling for a disabled friend at the moment) on which my ears tell me the intonation is off. His other Taylors don't sound like that, so it's not his tuning.

Conversely I know one player with a Washburn that sounds WONDERFUL although it cost him nothing like Martin money, and I am a firm believer in Daions (or Mugens, same guitar different name) which seem to sell way below fair price, because no-one is sure of them. Morris are undervalued too, but less consistent. I have even come across one good Yamaha (they are hardly ever outright bad, but often very characterless) and the second best guitar I ever heard in my life was a Fender, that the owner picked up for a song because it was unfashionable.

It's more like frogs. Kiss a thousand and you may find a prince.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 05:38 PM

I like my nice guitars. And there's something to be said for a level of quality that at least gets a fella outta the basement, so-to-speak. For instance, there's little that can be done with some cases of bad intonation, and there are some cheap guitars that will never resonate, or sustain (not that I want my Gibson to sustain all that much).

But the truth, as has countless times been pointed out here, is somewhere in the middle (imo). I used to read, with great interest, Rick Fielding's take on this issue -- As much as he loved fine guitars, he seemed to come down on the side of believing that the most important element in the sound of a guitar was in the hands of the player.

Well, I was just having that conversation with a friend. He pointed out two things that would reinforce that POV.

1. Tone Poems. Dozens of guitars -- little doubt who is playing them.

2. The Pizza Tapes. Somewhere near the end of the recording, Grisman picks up the famous Clarence White D28. You wouldn't know it wasn't his Alvarez if he didn't mention that he was playing Tony Rice's guitar.

I just wanna hazard a guess here that Tony Rice (or Mooh, or M. Ted for that matter) could make a Seagull sound pretty damn good. Set-up, by any reputable tech, would take care of the playability.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 05:50 PM

I'm not sure about that. I recently listened to a digital copy (A CD) of the first John Renbourn album, and immediately said that he was not playing either a Martin or a Gibson. I think it turned out to be a Garth.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 05:52 PM

John Hardly is right on about the Gibson LG2, but I can understand the price problem because these vintage babies are in pretty big demand. You could get the scale of the LG2 by looking for and LG0 or LG1. The LG0 has a mahogany top and the LG1 has a sprice top. both are ladder braced instead of X braced like the LG2 or it's rare natural top version, the LG3. Also the B25 whioh replaced the LG2 and LG2 is virtually the same guitar and carries a lower price tag.

Very little compares in quality to these Gibson small body guitars except perhaps a Martin. If you get one at a fair price, you will never lose money on it.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: dwditty
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:00 PM

Gibson J-45. This is the guitar that is heard playing folk, blues, jazz, rock...you name it...and short scale.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:31 PM

Yes, Gibson fans, J-45s are nice (although I find the thinner finish on the J-50s often lets the sound have a bit more life, and I have read the same of the WM45s too) but they are not usually the weapon of choice of those using varied open tunings, where the extra resonance of say a Lowden may be the better tool for the job. The ladder bracings tend to sound shorter - maybe even "bluesier" - still.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM

As John Hardly shrewdly guessed, I have had a long relationship with Seagull Guitars--having bought(over time) a fairly large number of them for students--I always offered to buy them back if anyone decided they didn't like it, and never had a taker--

Even though I have a few really nice guitars, my general inclination is to play a Suzuki Dreadnaught that I bought at a yardsale for $25--for the few performances I have done in recent years, I snap in a Semour Duncan Woody and play it through an old Peavy PA---if you hit it good and hard, and on the beat, you get music--

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:07 PM

I have been well impressed with Suzukis generally, but not any sort of slot-in pickup. Ever.

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:31 PM

All I can do, Richard, is to repeat the old adage, "To each his own, said the lady as she kissed the pig."

I got the Seymour Duncan on the recommendation of our dear old friend, Rick Fielding, and was surprised at how good it sounded. Nice for accompanying a jazz vocalist, because I could get that acoustic rhythm feel, and still have crisp chords--oddly enough, it gives the guitar more balanced response than it has unamplified--and, best of all, it needs no preamp, because it is a loud'n--

Subject: RE: Guitar scale length dilemma,suggestions?
From: Grab
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:02 AM

Since I suggested an S-size Lowden, one had come up on Ebay. Clicky. It's an S25 - rosewood and cedar. Three guys in our club have O25's (same size as yours in rosewood/cedar), and that combination gives you a wonderful tone that's almost impossible to play wrong. For my money the rosewood body gives a clearer, richer sound than the mahogany.

Since you're a Lowden fan, you could also consider an Avalon. The high-end Avalons are basically identical to Lowdens, and I suspect even the low-end ones will sound pretty good with the Lowden-type construction.

Graham.