Advice please about types of Guitars

Subject: Advice please about types of Guitars
From:
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 08:33 PM

I am going to buy a second-hand guitar (after thinking about it for thirty years :).

I have it narrowed down to two second-hand ones in my price range. One is a steel string and the other is a classical.

I purposely don't mention brands as I don't want that to be an issue.

My intention is to play country and blues type music on it.

I know standard wisdom would say I should choose the steel string, but I would like the opinions/experiences of those out there who play either of the two types in folk music as to advantages of each.

I just can't decide. It would be nice to be given a decisive piece information like "steel strings have been proven to cause finger cancer"; but something like that is too much to hope for!

Thanks,

Murray

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Will
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 08:52 PM

Well, steel strings have been proven to cause callouses. But, then, so have plastic strings so I suppose that doesn't differentiate. I prefer a steel string guitar because I can make more noise and misplay a wider range of music on it, from Buddy Holly to Leadbelly to, if pressed, Ray Davis (I'm not sure that that is very far). But, I must admit, when I listen to good classical guitarists that I am amazed at the nuances that they can tease out.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Dan Keding
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 08:55 PM

Murray, Get the guitar that appeals to you the most. The one that feels right and sounds right to your ears. I've heard some remarkable music, both country and blues, played on both types of instruments. Take someone else to the store whose playing you like or get one of the clerks to play a song you know and stand back and listen. Make sure the neck feels right in your hands, that the body rests up against you and isn't too big or too small. In short make sure its what you want in a guitar. This instrument is going to be your best friend when it comes to music so approach it that way and look for all the traits you want in that friend. I play steel string guitars and I enjoy the feel and sound. I play Larrivees from Canada and I like the shape of the body and neck, I like the tone and sustain and the way it rings.

Hope you find the right one to make some great music.

Dan

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: chet w
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 09:06 PM

Will and Dan are absolutely right. The thing I'd like to add, though, is that if there's a particular style or artist that you would like to emulate, as most of us do when we start out (I don't know if you're starting out), then you probably would be satisfied if you get a guitar similar to the ones those people played. If blues is your interest, you're in luck because an awful lot of those old blues recordings were made with guitars that were very inexpensive and still are today, even when you find a pretty old one. But the bottom line, as Dan said, is you pick the guitar that appeals to you. Other than between two persons, there are few more intimate relationships than the one you'll have with an instrument that you really love.

Don't be in a hurry, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From:
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 01:35 AM

Thanks for the answers. Now let me be more specific.

I am a beginner with the guitar, but not with musical instruments. I have played recorders, flutes and I still mess around with a Clavicord my wife and I build many years ago.

In the first instance (after learning where the notes are, of course) I will try to learn some of Mississippi John Hurt's stuff from Grossman's books.

I would also like to arrange some of the Carter family stuff with the guitar filling in for the autoharp (as well as for itself.) For that I will need to do some slide work.

I will more than probably stay away from clasical music on it. There are few people who do it well, and I would rather be a listener.

Does that change any opinions.

Murray

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Bo
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 09:08 AM

If you need to treat the instrument as a band member as well as a friend consider the steel strings twice. Although I'm assured that nylon strings can do everything metal strings do I don't fully believe it. I think metal strings are more easily amplified (if that is a concern?) and would probably stand up to slide work more vigorously.

If amplification is an issue I really suggest you consider a miked acoustic guitar. If only because I've heard some horror stories about a badly installed mike in a favourite instrument and about temporary mikes falling out on stage. Best it be done before you buy it so you know it works and you're happy with it.

Still, all of this is technical detail next to your relationship with the instrument. If the instrument doesn't make up your mind for you that might not be the right instrument for you. Sounds flaky, but if you dont like the instrument (even the colour or wheight!) its one more excuse not to practice that you dont need. I'm sure you know this (based on your other instruments) but sometimes we convince ourselves that "its a good deal for a guitar or ______" and forget the personal connection that we need to make the instrument a joy \ useful.

bo

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Jon W.
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 10:08 AM

Another consideration for slide work is the shape of the fretboard, i.e. is it flat or radiused (rounded a little)? Almost all steel string guitars have a radiused fretboard these days, and nylon string guitars have a flat one. When I started trying to learn some slide guitar a few years ago I found I needed a flat fretboard with steel strings (I can't believe you can get any type of sound from nylon strings with a slide--but that's just my prejudice). So I am still waiting for the right guitar before I get serious about learning slide. There are, no doubt, some styles of slide guitar where a radiused fretboard would be acceptable.

My advice is to put sound somewhat ahead of feel. You'll get used to the feel of the guitar you use and then everything else will feel slightly wrong anyway--until you get used to that one too.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 12:17 PM

You can't use a slide on nylon strings. Frank.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Earl
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 12:58 PM

For Mississippi John Hurt and the Carter family steel strings would almost certainly be the right choice. I agree with Frank, slide on nylon strings would not be very satisfying. Since you're planning to stay away from classical, that's another argument for steel strings. Also, if at any point you change your mind, it is easier on your fingers to go from steel to nylon than vice versa. I agree with Chet, get a guitar that you love.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Bert
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 01:17 PM

Get 'em BOTH.

Seriously though, there would be nothing stopping you putting VERY LIGHT steel strings on a classical guitar. Despite the gasps of horror that you might get from purists.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Ralph Butts
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 02:07 PM

Murray......

Re: style
Given the styles you suggested, I think you would be disappointed with nylon.

Re: calluses
After you have them, you'll display them proudly. BTW, playing is lots easier if you HAVE calluses.

Re: learning
A classical will usually be larger and a bit harder to get your arms around. The neck will be wider, which makes chord stretches longer, hence a little harder for the beginner.

For a firstie, I would suggest steel, less than dreadnaught size, with ultralight strings to make it easier at first. Later, you can heavy up the strings a mite.

Good luck....Tiger

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Jon W.
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 03:28 PM

<<< Seriously though, there would be nothing stopping you putting VERY LIGHT steel strings on a classical guitar. Despite the gasps of horror that you might get from purists. >>>

Nothing to stop you, true, but you risk the very real possibility of tearing the bridge right off the top of the instrument. Steel strings go clear through the top and are held in place by plastic tapered pins and are backed by a hardwood plate under the soundboard, nylon string bridges are glued to the top and the strings tied directly to the bridge. Also the method of bracing the top is quite different, with nylon string guitars being much more lightly braced (which is why they can still sound good with such light string tension) than steel-stringed guitars. Steel strings exert around 200 pounds (90kg) pressure on the attachment points, I suspect even the extra light ones exert at least 150 pounds. In fairness I don't know the tension exerted by nylon strings but I suspect it's a lot less (maybe half as much). I've seen a few classical guitars strung with steel which have had their bridges ripped off.

Note: This gasp of horror is not motivated by any conscious purist or elitist attitude.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Will
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 03:40 PM

All good advice. I'm not sure, though, about the point someone made that feel is less important than sound. I think they both matter a lot and its worth looking until you find something that you like both the feel of and the sound of. I have a Yamaha knock-off of a Stratocaster that bought mail-order; it sounds ok, but I have never really liked the way it's fret-board feels. And every time I play a real Strat I discover how much difference feels makes, both to my limited abilities to play and to my not-so-limited enjoyment from playing.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Old Timer
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 04:41 PM

If you want to sing and accompany yourself, it doesn't matter much which you choose. If you want to play with a group (or jam sessions), the steel string will let you be heard without everyone having to stop or quieten down to accommodate you. Of course, if you don't care about that, it still doesn't matter........ Get both ;-)

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Gene E
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 10:25 PM

John W,

For slide playing a steel string with a 14' radius neck will seem almost flat with light pressure on the strings. As far as a flat fret board guitar, the 90 series Dobros have flat fretboards. Actually Dobro (now a division of Gibson) offer a bottleneck line including all the model 90 resonator guitars equipped with the National style "bisquit" bridge. Talk about a great bluEsy sound!!!!!

If I were starting out on slide again I would probably buy the Dobro, Hula Blues wood body model. It can be purchased for less than $800.00, has the blues set-up above and is a great feeling, sounding blues axe.

I have 2 Dobros one with a very not flat neck (12" radius) and a model 90 metal body and use both for slide work.

Go ahead get slidin'! It's in ya and it's gotta git out!! :}

Gene E

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Gene E
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 10:36 PM

Murray,

Being into other instruments, you probably have an eye for good quality. Think of your prospective guitar as a fine quality hand tool: If it's cumbersome to hold you won't enjoy playing it hold it in a playing position and see how it feels. Pluck the bass strings and listen for a good melow tone, good woods make for good sustain on the low notes. If the "bottom end" sounds chunky with little sustain, it's probably a cheap guitar.

I would suggest steel string instrument over the classical only because the classical is not as versital but play what sounds right to you. If you want to play guitar, you have a sound you want the selection process is about finding that sound.

Happy hunting

Gene E

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Jack mostly folk
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 01:22 AM

Go with the steel string, much more rewarding sound and punch, you can always put nylon on a steel sring guitar but you can't put steel strings on a classical. It's a practice often done by beginners who usually give up the ghost before learning anything becuase it sounds terrible. You have already got some great advise, it's really to your taste in sound and what feels best to you.If you still have doubts about taste for sound and feel after reading all the replys to your thread, You should put off buying. You need to have a good idea before looking.Good luck and hope every one gives you some helpful hints. Jack mostly folk

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Bert
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 11:11 AM

Told you there'd be cries of horror:-) Every word that Jon W. says is true. But I do crazy things anyway. If the bridge tore off I'd just screw on a tail piece. That's what makes folk instruments. But not everyone is like me. Listen to Jon, especially on an expensive instrument.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Jon W.
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 12:49 PM

If lightness of playing is a serious reason to consider nylon strings but otherwise you want a steel string guitar, I suggest you get a steel string guitar and the lightest steel strings you can find (extra light) and put on it (the first or high "E" string should be about .009 or .010 inches rather than the standard .011 or .012). By the time you wear them out, you will have built up callouses and you can switch to regular "Light" strings which will give you more sound. If you put nylon strings on a steel string instrument, it won't harm it but as Jack says you may get discouraged because of the lack of sound.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Bob Landry
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 01:53 PM

My vote is for the steel string for all the reasons noted above.

I can't stress enough the importance of sound and feel. I played a 12-string almost exclusively for years. It has a decent sound but I really never got past the strummmng stage. I also had a cheap classsical guitar. Virtually never played it so I sold it. When the frets on the 12-string wore out (for the third time) about 3 years ago, I decided it was time to get a good 6-string guitar. I haunted music stores for 18 months and made up my mind to buy a "T" model. Then I started to shop around for the best deal on that model. The last store I wandered into had both the "T" and a "G" model I'd never seen before. Took both into the sound room, played one chord on each and the "T" was history. The "G" is my baby. I'd take it to work every day if I didn't have to work while I was here.

The right guitar for you will be comfortable to hold. The action of the strings will be smooth. The sound will be perfect to your ears. Coupled with some guitar lessons, my "G" has enabled to me raise my playing skills to levels I had not dared dream of for the 25 years I played the 12-string. Hope the same can happen to you.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From:
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 07:22 PM

I am now the proud owner of a Gibson Epiphone steel string guitar. (I suspect one should pay more attention to the "Epiphone" than the "Gibson" as far as price is concerned.) I am also the proud owner of four very sore left finger tips. I think I overdid it on the first day!

I took advice and had some of the guys in the store play the two instruments while I stood back and listened. (It is surprising how agile , but how blissfully unaware of tuning they are.) The steel one sounded better.

BTW slide playing doesn't sound bad on a classical guitar. There was a lot less spurious noise, and it seemed easier to do (probably the flat fretboard.) The only reservation I had was the how long the notes were sustained.

The talk about putting light steel strings on a classical was very helpful, and I stumbled upon the plan that Jon just suggested. I decided to put light strings on the steel one. I will go one step further. I get one free setup with the guitar, and I will have the mechanic make the action closer to go with the lighter strings. I have a feeling I will spend quite a bit of time with that setup and when I am ready for the world to hear me, I will put on heavier strings and a "bigger" action.

For the time being I will stay with it as is for about a week and just experiment with picking out tunes and chords. Now to find a teacher.......

Thank you all for sharing your experience. Now I think I will stop reading this thread before I see something like "The Epiphone! you got stuck with one of those? Why, back in...":-)

Bob, What do "model T" and "model G" mean?

Murray

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Gene E
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 08:40 PM

I'm a "D" model type of guy myself.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Bob Landry
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 09:19 PM

Murray, T= Takamine; G=Guild. Love that Guild!

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From:
Date: 06 Mar 98 - 05:47 AM

I am still puzzled about the letters. Are they models of a particular brand of guitar, are they brands of guitars, or are they generic names?

If they are generic names, there is a gap in my education. Tell me where I can find out about them!

Murray

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: P
Date: 06 Mar 98 - 01:18 PM

I´m a proud owner of Takamine Santa fe. Try one out and you will not be disappointed!

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Humdinger Folksinger
Date: 06 Mar 98 - 05:08 PM

I'm Gibson all the way! By no stretch am I an accomplished guitar play; I learned to play so I could accompany myself singing. I bought a Gibson B25 in 1966 because I loved the sound and feel and still do today. I believe in quality but along with that it must feel good. I guess what I'm saying is that my relationship with my guitar is personal so choose one that you would be comfortable with in a personal relationship. I'm not sure if my left brain or my right brain just wrote that or if it's simply the "woman" in me. Humdinger Folksinger

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Ian Harvey-Pittaway
Date: 07 Mar 98 - 02:17 PM

First, DO take notice about putting steel strings on a classical guitar!!! It will soon be wrecked if you do it!!! I play a little blues but mostly folk - however, please read on. I used to use steel, then Spanish nylon strung before going back to steel-strung folk. I now play a Lowden. I know you said you were less concerned with brands, but I chose the Lowden (it is model 025) because it is, for me, a fantastic combination of the best of 'folk' guitars and the best of Spanish. It projects wonderfully, has a beautiful rich, deep, fat tone, and a wider than usual fretboard. People have often commented to me on its classical-type tonal qualities while retaining the punchiness of a steel-strung. It all depends how you play it, and it responds very sensitively to the way it is played. f you don't know whether to choose nylon or steel, try Lowden - it will give you the best of both worlds. There may be only one problem: you said you want second-hand. Second-hand Lowdens are difficult to come by. Once you have bought one, you will not want to let it go!

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 07 Mar 98 - 04:33 PM

Ian, my favourite guitar is a Lowden, an 010C (cutaway). I've never been happy with the narrow necks on steel strings, but this neck is beautiful, it also has enough volume that I regularly play with upright bass, violin, mandolin and sometimes piano without any amplification. I guess that's why they call it a "Lowden".

Frank.

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From:
Date: 08 Mar 98 - 02:32 AM

It seems that Low-den is the wrong name to me. It should be called a Loud-den or a High-den.

Anyway, the reason I didn't want to consider brand names was because I had already picked out two and was trying to decide between them. One happened to be steel and the other classical. I was predisposed toward the steel, because I intended to play blues and western type music, but I thought I would ask around rather than take the "canonical" advice: Nylon for classical steel for blues.

I can see the advantages of a wide (and flat) fingerboard, and that is why I was considering a classical one at all.

I recently heard sombody here in Sydney playing blues on a classical guitar and it sounded good; but it was a very high-class guitar and the guy had a lot of experience performing on it.

Murray

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Jack mostly folk
Date: 08 Mar 98 - 02:44 AM

Murray, You seem to be having quite a time pondering over steel verses classical. There is an excellent section in OLGA that explains how to buy your first guitar and the question might best be answered there since it will assist you in what to look for in guitars. Generally, the taste of music you listen to should lean your interest to a direction. Who is your favorite artist? Thats a good start, If its Willie Nelson and you like his guitar style then it's a classical guitar you need. My first guitar was a classical wide neck and I just could not live with it. I opted for a second guitar with steel strings and have continually upgraded the quality to where I'm at today. I'm down to two guitars and have no plans of changing the status unless they're broke or stolen. Go to the OLGA website, all the numbers and sizes will confuse you. If you are a beginner player, take a trip to your local music stores. Take an accomplished player who has a keen ear for sounds and let him assist you in tonal quality. Feel the guitar, is the neck to wide or narrow for the size of your hands? You don't have to buy there, stick by your guns and buy a used guitar. I really think if your a blusey kind of listener, the steel is the obvious selection. The fingers will survive the agony and you'll be hooked like the rest of us, we're too numb from the music to notice the pain. yours in music, Jack mostly folk

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Jack mostly folk
Date: 10 Mar 98 - 01:14 AM

Oops, not OLGA, try The Guirar Archives or Accoustic Guitar websites. I tried to correct this 8th of March and could'nt make the server come on line. Jack

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Paul Stamler
Date: 10 Mar 98 - 03:00 AM

Well, it sounds like you chose a guitar that will do many things well; congratulations. A couple of thoughts now that you've got it:
1) For the first little while you may want to try silk and steel extra-light strings, until your fingers get stronger and a little more callused.
2) If the instrument has a solid top, buy a humidifier and follow the instructions. I use one of the ones made of surgical tubing that looks like a marital aid. You'd be surprised how much better an instrument sounds when the wood isn't all dried out. Less likely to crack over the years, too.
3) An interesting tuning method, using an electronic tuner, is to tune using the "A" notes on several of the strings. To wit: tune the 1st (high E) string so that the A note at the fifth fret is in tune; tune the second string so the D note at the third fret is in tune; tune the third string so the A note at the second fret is in tune; tune the fourth string so the A *harmonic* at the seventh fret is in tune; tune the fifth string so the A harmonic at the fifth fret is in tune. Finally, tune the low E string so the G note at the third fret is in tune with the open third string -- tune this one by ear. For about 80% of the guitars I've worked with, this is more accurate than tuning the open strings.
Enjoy! Paul

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From:
Date: 10 Mar 98 - 03:16 AM

Jack, I am no longer agonizing about the choice of guitar. I got one and now I am just agonizing. As it turns out OLGA was a good place to send me. It has lots of material about choosing a guitar, a teacher, as well as notes on practicing.

Paul, thanks for the advice. At the moment I am relying on a piano and a pitch pipe for tuning. When you say "the top is solid" do you mean as opposed to plywood, or do you mean it is cut out of one piece of wood. If the former, how do you tell if the top is solid?

My wife is a professional violinist, and I know all about those obscene humidifiers. As part of my tuning routine, I play where she can hear it once in a while. That usually gets her to tune it.

BTW Paul. Are you related to a Stamler family in Iowa. Some live in Iowa City and some in Martinsburg. They are my in-laws.

Murray

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: nobbler
Date: 12 Mar 98 - 01:33 PM

I first started to learn on a cheap nylon stringed classical guitar. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who wants to learn for reasons of playing camp fire/pop/party songs. When someone finally put a steel stringed guitar in my hand I nearly gave up!

I know you didn't particularly want to go into brand names, but it's always fun. :)

You suggested not wanting to spend lotsa $$'s, so I would suggest that ignore the 'Martin' boys at least for a little while until you get the hang of things, then start saving your pennies. It's pointless spending large amounts of hard earned cash on something you might not stick at.

For just a couple of hundred dollars (or less) you can pick up a cheap Fender accoustic intro package new. Hardly my instrument of choice, but they do for a while. Sooner or later a point will come when you know. Then you can start dreaming about the Martins, Guilds etc.

Go with the steel strings mate, and build up them callouses!!! -nobbler

Subject: What type of guitar do I buy?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:17 AM

I need help. I'm going to buy my husband a guitar for his birthday. He's never played before but he's gonna take lessons. Anyway, There's this guitar on a tv infomercial where the guitar is acoustical and it can be electric. Which may be a good thing for a beginner, but I don't think my husband would like how it looks. He's not into the country thing and that's what this guitar looks like. He's into rock so I imagine he would rather have a "rockers" guitar. What is the actual difference between the 2 besides the look? I'm just so confused. This will be his first guitar so if anyone could tell me what the best kind to get is, I would appreciate it.
Thank You.

---

A separate thread was started for this request. Please see What type of guitar do I buy? --JoeClone

Subject: RE: Advice please about types of Guitars
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 10:50 AM

I think if he's into rock he'd be wanting an electric guitar, which is plugged into an amplifier with a lead, as opposed to an acoustic which amplifies itself. You can get beginer electric guitar packages that come with everything needed to get you started quite easily.