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BS: Colin Powell supports Obama
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Subject: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: jacqui.c Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:54 AM Just heard this from a friend of ours. Whoo Hoo!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:00 AM Announcement on CNN |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM Powell will be on Meet the Press at 10:30AM EDT....30 min. from now,, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM HE endorsed Barack Obama on the show. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Deckman Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM This should seal the deal. Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM I just watched Powell. He made the case for Obama quite well, but he sure couldn't bring himself to admit that his judgment had been wrong in 2002. He just repeated that we had flawed intelligence that led him to agree to military action in Iraq, but never quite said that there was careless vetting of that intelligence and bad judgment by Bush in how to proceed. He (Powell) continues to say that McCain "...would be a good president" ...but that Obama would be a better choice in these times. I guess that will have to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: EBarnacle Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:09 AM I have often thought that Powell really could go either way politically as he has seemed to be an honest man who was greatly troubled by the way he was used. I suspect his departure from the administration was more voluntary than it appeared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:09 AM listening to Powell now. Choosing Palin for VP showed poor judgement, another reason Powell chose Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:17 AM I listened to the entire interview and thought that Powell fairly well trashed the McCain campaign and McCain's judgement while saying that he still considered McCain a friend... I don't think Powell could have gone any further without Joe the GunNut shooting him as he left the NBC studio... BTW, I have mentioned in the past that I beleive that Powell sould be a good candidate for his old job, but with a different mission... He allready knows the jobs and the world players so ya'll don't be surprised if this comes to pass... I can forgive him on Iraq... He was completely outgunned by Bush's inner circle... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:21 AM He sure did say that he would always listen to a plea from ANY president for his advice, though he was not anxious to get back into govt' full time. Sounds to me like he is available... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:45 AM His description of the headstone of the 20 year old soldier who died in Iraq (and was muslim) was an excellent response to all the muslim scare rumors being spread by republicans. He voiced his disappointment in the people in the Republican party who have been spreading bigotry against muslims. That needed to be said. Thank you, Colin Powell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM He did say that a young Muslim 'should' be able to dream of being president. Nice image..though we know not likely. He did NOT suggest that a young person of NO religious faith, no matter how competent or dedicated or patriotic, might hold such dreams.. *wry smile* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:55 AM Good point, Bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM Oh, my gosh, I just read the Salt Lake Tribune's editorial today: A simple choice: The nation needs Barack Obama in the White House. Utah is so conservative, this really surprises me. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10761520 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:05 PM Did that need saying? I'd have though that even in America "a young person of NO religious faith" would have a much better chance of making it to the presidency than a young person of the "wrong" religious faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM America is such a religious country, atheists and agnostics are pretty much frozen out of most political positions. Politicians are always expected to tell voters which church they go to. Yes, there is supposed to be separation of church and state, but the country is god obsessed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:27 PM Colin Powell has gone a long way toward redeeming himself in my eyes today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM Me, too, Carol. So have those who live in Utah!:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:48 PM And what does Calypso Harry Belafonte think of Colin Powell? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:57 PM It really isn't so surprising the the Salt Lake Tribune endorsed Obama. The conservative paper in town is the Deseret News, which is owned by the Mormon (LDS) Church. Salt Lake itself has always been much more "liberal" (whatever that word means) than the state as a whole, and the current mayor is a Democrat. BTW, I went to college there, and this is personal knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Stringsinger Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM Powell has redeemed himself to a degree. His performance in front of the UN was disgraceful. It's good that he has disentangled himself from Bush's disastrous policies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:08 PM It's all about race now! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ferrara Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM It's all about race now! ... Interesting how some people's minds work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Jeri Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM I watched Meet the Press, and Powell's reasons make sense to me, but they'll probably make sense to a lot of less extremely right wing Republicans. The party has centered itself farther to the right than ever and McCain doesn't represent the best interests of the most people. Obama does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: jacqui.c Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM I know Rita, but didn't you know that would be the reaction from some! We've heard it from a Republican friend of ours already. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:25 PM To hear it from Rig is no surprise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Jeri Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM Some people are completely unprepared to deal with things unless they're that simple. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM All about race. No its a question of:- 1) whether you keep going for the dumb alternative - Bush, Reagan fair enough - but....Sarah Palin! 2) America's mistrust of intellectuals. 3) the wisdom of fighting wars to install regimes that don't, on the face of it, seem very attractive. 4) the economy Basically it all needs setting right, and McCain seems to offer the continuation of 'bad business as usuual'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM "It's all about race" in the sense that racism could be the ace in the hole that might get McCain elected. Perhaps the one thing more despicable (and in some ways more dangerous) than racists are people who aren't themselves racists, but who exploit racism in others as a tool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Jeri Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM I'd like to see a president who's smarter than I am, smarter than that plumber and smarter than 'Joe Sixpack'. I suppose if our schools were better, 'dumb' wouldn't be so popular. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM Well said Al |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Peace Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM I wonder what people will do. Is the 'no child left behind' thing still going in the US? We know it to be a disasterous policy and I have often wondered why educators bought into it. Will we see lots of We didn't know at all We didn't see a thing You can't hold us to blame What could we do It was a terrible shame You can't hold us to blame It wasn't us we didn't know Will Bush and Cheney be tried for crimes against the American people? People of this world? Or will that be conveniently slipped under the rug? Will Guantanimo be closed without the inmates being 'disappeared'? Will the Neocons who caused the market to collapse be sent there to fill the vacancies? Will the truth behind 9/11 come out? Does anyone here really think Obama will be allowed to take office after he's elected? Will Halliburton be investigated and misappropriations in Iraq be investigated? Thre role(s) of Blackwater be investigated? Or will there be an incident and will we have a military Junta co-sponsored by the Neocons? Stay tuned to "The American Dream, Reality TV"? The USA has much to answer for on the world stage. Your mileage may vary, but the USA has dropped in the opinion of this world, imo, and what used to be seen as a country that believed in good and human rights is now just another bunch of people loosely grouped around a flag that once meant something. The true test will be whether Obama's administration gives George Bush and Dick Cheney pardons. I suspect that that will let you know what's changed. I think y'all will just have to see who's still got money, because you'll know at that point who stole your economy, stole your freedoms and stole your democracy. Good luck to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:32 PM I can't stand Sean Hannity, but I'll probably watch his "Expose'" of O'Bama this evening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:34 PM Someone smarter than you Jeri? Well, that narrows the field. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:25 PM Why will you watch it, Kendall? It'll will be a bunch of fabricated BS, lies ad infinitum. My daughter who lives in CT has a boyfriend who is an American of African descent. He goes to community college there. He told me, today, there are white people on campus, people he knows, who have told him, to his face, that they agree with almost everything Obama stands for and has put forth, but they will vote for McCain, even though they cannot stand him, because they just "can't vote for a black man." This is in an area with a very high degree of diversity. It really surprises me. I know there are whitebread parts of CT where I would expect that, maybe, but not where they are and I am shocked they would tell him to his face and in such a frank way. Appalling, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM "...they just "can't vote for a black man." it sure would be interesting to get a few of those folks alone and quiz them for awhile to get some idea of why they say such a thing. I can make guesses, but I'd really like to drag the actual words out of them so they could hear themselves saying it out loud. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM But how about the people who wouldn't dream of saying that, but that's still the way they think, and the way they vote? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM America is such a religious country Not. The U.S is a country that has made a fetish out of religiosity. interesting to get a few of those folks alone and quiz them for awhile to get some idea of why they say such a thing The "why" should be patently obvious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:24 PM The "why" should be patently obvious. Not at all. Racists are just ordinary people who for some reason or other are badly screwed up. There are all kinds of reasons why someone might be racist, just as there are all kinds of reasons a person might be physically blind. If you don't know the reasons, you can't do much to mend things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Beer Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM Thank you Mr Powell. I have always liked the man and believe he was railroaded. I think the man became to dangerous and the Bush/Chaney click saw him as a threat. Beer (adrien) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM And those people are on campus? For what? sure as hell aint for learning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:33 PM .."all about race". Thank you, Mr. Riginslimer. It never was and isn't now--except possibly in your twisted mind. And by the way, Mr. Hypocrite--still waiting for your arguments as to why you-- who claim to oppose organized religion-- are fine with McCain/ Palin. Since if you're not fine with them, there's only one way to stop them--vote Obama/Biden. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:58 PM So Colin Powell has made his move. Welcome aboard! Who will be next? I'm enjoying this phase of the Campaign. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Cluin Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:22 PM See? They all stick together. Those politicians. ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:27 PM You don't have to be religious. You just should go to church. (McCain doesn't even do that.) Gets the networking started, and pours water on any questioning. You really don't think Obama goes to church to worship God and all that, do you? I can't believe anyone thinks so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:37 PM "America is the only country on earth where you can believe in the one, true God....all 164 of them"----Mark Twain |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Slag Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:31 PM There's a surprize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:38 PM "You don't have to be religious. You just should go to church. (McCain doesn't even do that.)" Don't tell Ron Davies. He thinks McCain and Palin are hopeless addicts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:50 PM There are many, many different other reasons why people go to church besides worshipping God. Such as... - "It's a nice thing to do, and my parents did it." - "All my friends are there." - "It gives me a lot of good social connections." - "It's a normal part of my community life." - "If I didn't go, my neighbours and relatives would wonder why." - "I go there for the music." - "I like the atmosphere." - "It's a break from telesion and the usual stuff." - "It's good for networking." - "People won't vote for me if I'm not seen going to church." - "I can get away from Riginslinger in church. He won't go in there for anything." Hee! Hee! Give it a rest, for God's sake! (And I don't mean that literally...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Peace Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:24 AM Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a mechanic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Cluin Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:54 AM Right. You actually have to get paid first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:55 AM Gee, some of you guys are a little hard on us religious people. Some of us go to church because we believe the world can and should be a better place, and in church we find ways to try to make it so, and people who want to work with us to make a better world. And in making ourselves and our world better, we see ourselves as worshipping God. Religious faith has been a primary motivator for a good number of people who have been involved in civil rights, antiwar, and other social justice movements. That's certainly not always the case, but a good number of religious people find church to be a place of kindness, wisdom, social justice - and God. Go to matthew25.org to hear Martin Sheen talk about it. Go to Sojourners for another presentation of the same sort of thinking. I don't want to get into yet another argument about religion, but I thought it worthwhile to point out that there are other perspectives. But it is true that church is a very good place to get away from Riginslinger.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM "Failed GI", huh? Count the stars, bub. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM "Give it a rest, for God's sake! (And I don't mean that literally...)" Yes, LH, I totally agree that the god thing can, as has been, beat into the ground. But we were commenting on Powell's endorsement of Obama, when Ron Davies, for the 348th time, demanded an explanation as to why one would support McCain if one were opposed to what he terms "organized religion." Though he's been given multiple explanations, he doesn't seem to be able to grasp the reality of what has been posted right in front of his face. It's as though, there is some magical answer out there that will satisfy him, but only he knows it and he's just waiting for somebody else to stumble across it. One might rationally lable this phenomenon the Rumpelstiltskin syndrome. It's a malady that Ron Davies seems to suffer from in the extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM Personally, I don't give a damn if he/she worships toadstools if he/she can do the job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:40 AM Does anyone here really think Obama will be allowed to take office after he's elected? Yes. I do. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Charley Noble Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:29 AM By the way I understand that Colin Powell has endorsed Obama for president! Or do I have the wrong thread? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM I quite agree with your diagnosis of Ron's peculiar problem, Rig. ;-) He's like a dog with a bone...he just won't let go of it, even though there's not one molecule of meat left anymore on that bone. Hey, Joe? Right with ya there. ;-) I was not disparaging yours or anyone's faith, just pointing out that there are a lot of people who go to church primarily out of habit and for various common social reasons rather than out of a deep faith in God. Many of them are extremely vague about God when it comes right down to it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: PoppaGator Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM "It's all about race"... The only htthing I see as being all about race is the effort to defeat Obama's candidacy by any means possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM I suppose there's a sort of logic in Rig preferring Sarah Palin to Obama. If she were to become president, perhaps because McCain dropped dead at the shock of winning this election, I am sure that her spell in office would tend to put an awful lot of people off the whole idea of religion. Whereas Obama in the White House might have the opposite effect. But that kind of speculation really belongs in another thread. I imagine there is still some mileage in talking about Colin Powell's backing Obama. The inevitable stuff about it being a matter of one "black" man supporting another seems pretty lame. The key reason, I am sure, is McCain's selection of Sarah Palin, and the depth of irresponsibility and lack of judgement Powell saw this as implying on the part of McCain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM Dear Dubya, I guess you thought Stone's flick was the October surprise. But payback's a bitch, isn't it-- it's me, your old pal! Have a nice legacy, ~Colin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM Some debunk on Powell. Rig's notion that Powell makes it into a racial issue is a smear of the lowest muck-feeding sort, and I can only surmise it is the sign of an uninspected life. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: robomatic Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM I think it's pretty apparent from Colin Powell's public history that it is absolutely NOT about race. Powell has been consistently intellectual and deliberative in his utterences. I suspect if anything his endorsement of Obama was in spite of race if anything, with the awareness of just the kind of reactions he would stimulate among many of the anti-Obama persuasion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Wesley S Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:26 PM Thinking that it's all about race is just an easier concept to grap for some people. It's scary for a lot of folks out there to think that Powell made his choice because of his convictions - and that it's the right thing to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Slag Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:32 PM Is this the thread on church? I see it quite differently than Alice. I see the godless, i.e. atheists as doing the tail wagging the dog! They are continuously attempting to deny anyone from a religious background a public voice in politics waving the non-existent "Separation" clause in their faces. Church, "ecclessia" in the Greek merely means those "called out". Christ said "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst." That's church! A small group of believers together to worship God in truth and in spirit. As for denominations, Christ clearly taught His disciples that he had "other sheep, not of this fold." Anyone who believes their particular group has a lock on Gospel Truth should pay close attention to that statement. As for LH and Rig, Hmmmm? I just can't see LH hiding out in a church! But! Desperation has caused some mighty unlikely incidents to occur. I'd have to put that one under "Stranger Than Fiction". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: gnu Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:34 PM Sorry... haven't had time to read the whole thread, so, again... sorry if this was said earlier... Well, of COURSE Powell HAS to supposrt Obama... after all, they are both intelligent, well educated, dedicated to public service... you get the pic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Donuel Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:43 PM But Rush Limbaugh said uneviolently that quote: "Powell's canadicy ,er, Powell's endorsement is only about race, its only about race, its only about race." Limbaugh's gesture during this pronouncement was tht of half heartedly covering his mouth as if passing along a secret. Pat Buchannon put forth a similar statement with even greater bravado on the Chris Matthews show. Now these people are giants to the Republican faithful as well as those dependent upon the GOP for their entire income. These giants can not be considered closet racists and bigots, they are the up front "leading the charge" heros of the like minded conservatives. Surely they can't be wrong! Yes they are and stop calling me Shirley. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: gnu Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM Shirley, you jest? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Charley Noble Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM I wonder if former U.S. Senator/Defense Secretary under Clinton has endorsed anyone? He's also a moderate Republican with some stature. He's also from Maine. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:12 PM Bigots they are, and bigots, for all; their posing, they remain. Rush Limabaugh has the insight of a polecat stuck up a lampost; you'd think he'd be able to see something, but he's too busy smelling bad to notice anything. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM "But Rush Limbaugh said uneviolently that quote: "Powell's canadicy ,er, Powell's endorsement is only about race,..." If I'd known that blow-hard was going to come to the same obvious conclusion, I wouldn't have brought it up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM Gee, Rig, you should face up to the resemblances!! It might give you pause and a moment of self-reflection. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM "Uneviolently"??? Okay, "violent" we know. And the ending "-ly" is "like" in disguise. "e-" is a prefix meaning "out of". and "un-" is of course a negative. So we have "not out of something like violence"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:55 PM Rig, I can hardly believe you're serious on this one...but you obviously are. You really can't think of any rational reasons Colin Powell might have other than race to endorse Obama????????? You really think Powell is that shallow a human being? Wow. That is mind-boggling. Practically the entire world is hoping Obama will win instead of McCain. Are they all doing that because of Obama's race? If your election was in Canda, McCain would get about 20% of the vote. It's even worse than that in western Europe. My, my...I never realized how great it is to be Black if you want to get elected president in America. By gollies! Who'da thunk it? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM I'm not second guessing Colin Powell's motives. I'm simply anticipating how it will be perceived by the voting public. Maybe the rest of the world would be better off if Obama got elected, but I don't think the US would be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: freda underhill Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM btw.. As the President ploughs on with the war, citing September 11 when no Iraqis were connected with September 11, it's timely to remember how Colin Powell, doing his duty, was given fake evidence of WMD to present to the UN.. Former aide: Powell WMD speech 'lowest point in my life'Friday, August 19, 2005; CNN.com Former Secretary of State Colin Powell presents the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003. A former top aide to Colin Powell says his involvement in the former secretary of state's presentation to the United Nations on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was "the lowest point" in his life. "I wish I had not been involved in it," says Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a longtime Powell adviser who served as his chief of staff from 2002 through 2005. "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life." Wilkerson is one of several insiders interviewed for the CNN Presents documentary "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown." The program, which airs Sunday at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET, pieces together the events leading up to the mistaken WMD intelligence that was presented to the public. A presidential commission that investigated the pre-war WMD intelligence found much of it to be "dead wrong." Powell's speech, delivered on February 5, 2003, made the case for the war by presenting U.S. intelligence that purported to prove that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Wilkerson says the information in Powell's presentation initially came from a document he described as "sort of a Chinese menu" that was provided by the White House. "(Powell) came through the door ... and he had in his hands a sheaf of papers, and he said, 'This is what I've got to present at the United Nations according to the White House, and you need to look at it,'" Wilkerson says in the program. "It was anything but an intelligence document. It was, as some people characterized it later, sort of a Chinese menu from which you could pick and choose." Wilkerson and Powell spent four days and nights in a CIA conference room with then-Director George Tenet and other top officials trying to ensure the accuracy of the presentation, Wilkerson says. "There was no way the Secretary of State was going to read off a script about serious matters of intelligence that could lead to war when the script was basically un-sourced," Wilkerson says. In one dramatic accusation in his speech, Powell showed slides alleging that Saddam had bioweapons labs mounted on trucks that would be almost impossible to find. "In fact, Secretary Powell was not told that one of the sources he was given as a source of this information had indeed been flagged by the Defense Intelligence Agency as a liar, a fabricator," says David Kay, who served as the CIA's chief weapons inspector in Iraq after the fall of Saddam. That source, an Iraqi defector who had never been debriefed by the CIA, was known within the intelligence community as Curveball." After searching Iraq for several months across the summer of 2003, Kay began e-mailing Tenet to tell him the WMD evidence was falling apart. At one point, Wilkerson says, Tenet called Powell to tell him the claims about mobile bioweapons labs were apparently not true. "George actually did call the Secretary, and said, 'I'm really sorry to have to tell you. We don't believe there were any mobile labs for making biological weapons,'" Wilkerson says in the documentary. "This was the third or fourth telephone call. And I think it's fair to say the Secretary and Mr. Tenet, at that point, ceased being close. I mean, you can be sincere and you can be honest and you can believe what you're telling the Secretary. But three or four times on substantive issues like that? It's difficult to maintain any warm feelings." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM Which is probably the real reason he endorsed Obama! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:34 PM As I have said...and posted here...for 2-3 years, OF COURSE many Senators voted for giving Bush freedom to enter Iraq, and OF COURSE Powell made that presentation to the UN in good faith. What else were they to do? They were told that we had 'good evidence' that Saddam had WMDs and planned to use them...they were giving the president, who was supposed to KNOW, the benefit of the doubt! Still, a few, like Obama, were suspicious and not convinced that war was a good idea. It became clear after awhile that Bush/Cheney and company flat wanted an excuse to be seen as heroes and liberators and did precious little to examine those flawed sources of intelligence! It was what they wanted to hear! There was a program on TV a few days ago about 'Curveball' and his history and credentials - and enough was known even back then to make his stories suspect....remember, Curveball LEFT Iraq in 1999 for Germany. I actually suspect Powell feels chagrin at not having been able to GET the full story and do independent checking before making that UN speech.....but there is sure no doubt he felt used and deceived. I am surprised he has said so little about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM His second in command has certainly said what he thought about it--I don't recall his name--but Powell probably felt being in the position he was in, he couldn't say what he thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM It's not surprising really that he is reluctant to admit a failure of judgement. Generals as well as politicians don't like to do that. And since his stock-in-trade is his being seen as a man of good judgement and a safe pair of hands, it would be particularly hard for him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM Actually, I think it has more to do with, he was the Secretary of State, and he wouldn't think it was proper to turn on the current administration, regardless of what they did to him. McCain, of course, is not part of this administration, so he doesn't feel obligated to McCain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM If you watched the interview, he made very clear how sad he was at having to disappoint McCain. He would gladly have supported McCain if the man had shown better judgment in choosing a VP and some other things...like slimy campaigning |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM None of you heard what Powell whispered to Brokaw as the camera was fading to black? He whispered, "April Fool." DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Cluin Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM I'm pretty sure Powell has a calendar, Doug. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM Slag, 0432 - you are not serious? The religious are not denied their own voices. We denounce as invalid only those imaginary voices they hear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM The sky is falling? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:53 PM Yep McGrath of Harlow, it surely is. Watch out, it's headed for England! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM Seriously, I can well understand why Colin Powell turned on the Republicans. After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him? I mean other than naming him first African American to head the Joint Chief's of Staff, first African-American four star general, first African-American National Security Adviser, and first African-American Secretary of State. I wonder what Barak O'Bama offered him? Must have been pretty good, though, since he said Race had nothing to do with his decision. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Cluin Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM So he should be a grateful ______ and put aside his principles and judgement and shut up and keep on supporting his old bosses, Doug? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM As I said earlier, I think it was probably McCain's selection of Sarah Palin that decided it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:16 PM Chappie James was the first African American four-star, attaining that rank (in the Air Force) in 1975. Colin Powell was a Lieutenant Colonel at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:37 PM For those of you who might be tempted to think this was about race... Forget it... It's about intellegence... Seess that McCain and Palin have decided that the path to victory is to purge the Republican Party of intellegence and so Powell had to go... And vice versa... Yeah, seems like a strange stategy to me but if they are right and somehow capture the White House I think the handwriting will be on the wall and that anyone with an I.Q. on the plus side of 100 might start figuring out which other country they'd like to live... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:41 PM Coin Powell has now learned to recognize "bad intelligence" when he sees it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:47 PM >>After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him? I mean other than naming him first African American to head the Joint Chief's of Staff, first African-American four star general, first African-American National Security Adviser, and first African-American Secretary of State.<< I think that relates more to what he had to offer THEM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:11 PM It may be, DougR, that there are deeper motivations at play here besides personal gain and status. Perhaps something akin to patriotism, a sense of ethics, a desire to work for the good in the world, and maybe even hope. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM "Seriously, I can well understand why Colin Powell turned on the Republicans. After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him? I mean other than naming him first African American to head the Joint Chief's of Staff, first African-American four star general, first African-American National Security Adviser, and first African-American Secretary of State." DougR Good god. Do you realize how racist you are? Say it isn't so, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Donuel Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:40 PM http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/cartoon/2008-10/42990355.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Donuel Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:49 PM Powell did not turn on Republicans. He proudly proclaims that he is still a Republican. He may have turned on the neocons however. I think even Doug R gets that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:55 PM The sky is falling on the neocons. They pulled it right down on themselves, praise be! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Mike in Brunswick Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:15 PM Would McCain be in a better position now if he had selected someone like Powell and attracted more independents? Or is the religious right so important to today's Republican Party that someone like Palin was inevitable? Mike (formerly Guest, Mike in DC, but we've moved to Maine and I've joined Mudcat.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:19 PM I think so. That's one major thing they did to themselves. They tore McCain down in their zeal and arrogance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:38 PM News today was that McCain wanted Leiberman, but he was advised that he would lose unless he chose Palin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM I lost all respect for Colin Powell because of that speech before the UN. As far as I was concerned, he had sold his soul. However, his little speech on Meet the Press went a long way toward redeeming him in my eyes. He's not all the way there yet, but it helped a lot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:43 PM To paraphrase my cousin Vinny: "We're trew wit dose guys!" Free at last! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,TIA Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:47 PM I stood up in my seat (big mistake, was driving through NH at the time) and cheered when Powell said that McCain's response to the woman who claimed that Obama is an arab was wrong. Powell said he should not have simply said "no he's a christian", but instead "why does that matter". I agree CarolC - I've been nursing a Powell grudge, but that statement alone lifted him way up in his self-dug hole. Way up. And isn't it funny that Powell, the very figure of truth and virtue when he addressed the UN in 2003, is now being called a misguided racist by the people who championed his unquestionable integrity back then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM IF he had chosen Lieberman, I would have cheered...that would have been almost as bad a choice as Palin turned out to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:05 PM "I lost all respect for Colin Powell because of that speech before the UN." I agree. did he ever apologize or redeem himself publicly for this? biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM DougR, I am really shocked and disappointed at your racist posting. I really held you in a better light than that; sadly, that is not to be, any more. I realise this is just cyberspace, but I will no longer consider you a friend, though it saddens me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,TIA Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:10 PM Kat - don't blame DougR...I do not think he is actually racist. He is simply parroting what Limbaugh said today without thinking about it. Puppet yes. Racist no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,TIA Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:12 PM Oh yes, and biLL: Powell never explicitly apologized, but he did say that his UN appearance was the event in his life that he most regrets, and that he later felt used. That is almost (almost) enough for me. Almost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM yeah ... almost ... almost. The only excuse I can think of ... is maybe the Bush/Cheney machine threatened him if he did open his mouth. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:24 PM Now that the most prominent military figure of our era - also a lifelong Republican, also George W. Bush's first Secretary of State, also a friend of John McCain's for 25 years - has publicly endorsed Barack Obama, it will be fascinating to behold the McCain surrogates and under-the-radar whisperers as they try to spin this one away. Maybe we'll get variations of these: 1. Colin Powell has no credibility anymore, ever since he lied at the United Nations. 2. Colin Powell, a longtime moderate and supporter of abortion, has never been a real Republican anyway. 3. Colin Powell lives in McLean, Virginia, and we all know that Northern Virginia is not the "real" Virginia. 4. ACORN put him up to it. 5. Black people always stick together. 6. We've still got Joe the Plumber. But seriously folks...when I saw the Powell endorsement this morning, on Meet the Press, I was reminded of something that Indiana Republican Sen. Dick Lugar said about Powell way back in 1995, when it appeared that the retired general might seek the '96 GOP presidential nomination. Lugar said that if Powell ran, it would be akin to "the displacement of water that comes if you drop a skyscraper into the harbor." Obviously, no endorsement can be considered that weighty - but, as endorsements go, Powell's formal vetting of Obama ("the president that we need now") is potentially quite consequential. The symbolism alone makes it so. First, Powell is one of the most popular public figures in America - viewed favorably by 76 percent of voters, according to an August poll by Fox News, so his opinion matters. Second, his military and foreign views command wide respect; indeed, the "Powell doctrine" (America should go to war only when it can fight with overwhelming force, with strong popular support, and with an exit strategy) is viewed as the antithesis of the Bush-Cheney cowboy credo. Third, Powell is particularly popular among military retirees - who also happen to be particularly populous in three red states where Obama is strongly competitive (Florida, Virginia, North Carolina. Powell essentially signaled that Obama, despite his inexperience, trumps McCain on judgment. He signaled that Obama has a better take on how America should conduct its foreign policy, and that McCain's approach is too closely tied to the Bush administration (despite McCain's insistence these days that he is not Bush redux). Powell also signaled that, as a career military man, he is nevertheless more comfortable with Obama at the helm of national security policy - because McCain would "continue, basically, the policies we have been following in recent years." Powell did not personally assail McCain today, except by implication. By lauding Obama's "steadiness...intellectual curiousity...depth of knowledge...intellectual vigor," he strongly suggested that McCain lacks those crucial attributes. But he minced no words while talking about the McCain campaign, and the Republican party itself. He said that, while Obama is busy reaching out, the GOP and the McCain campaign have become "narrower and narrower." He said that Obama is "crossing ethnic lines, racial lines, generational lines. He's thinking about, 'all villages have values, all towns have values' - not just 'small towns have values'." That latter reference was one of several swipes at Sarah Palin, whom he deems unqualified for higher office - and whose presence on the ticket "raised some question, in my mind, as to the judgment that Sen. McCain made." He twice assailed the GOP's obsession with ex-'60s bomber Bill Ayres ("why do we have these robocalls going out around the country?...it's demagoguery"), and he denounced the lies being spread "by members of the party" about how Obama is supposedly a Muslim. All told, Powell said that "we've got to stop polarizing ourselves in this way." Moreover, he contended that the party's "further rightward shift" - which is best epitomized by McCain's choice of Palin - could adversely impact the future of American jurisprudence. Or, as he put it, "I would have difficulty with two more conservative appointees to the Supreme Court, but that's what we'd be looking at in a McCain administration." Powell, the longtime defender of abortion rights, appeared to be aiming that message at suburban white women, notably the moderates and Republicans who might still be on the fence, and who perhaps need to be reminded about the perilous status of Roe v. Wade. This endorsement will dominate the news cycle for a day or two, and there are precious few days remaining. I instinctively recoil from uttering certitudes, so I won't make the case that the Powell validation constitutes game, set, and match for Obama. On the other hand, McCain has virtually no spin options on this one. All he can do is go forth in denial and again tell his audiences, "My friends, we've got them where we want them." Philadelphia Enquirer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:30 PM pre election carnival ... I recall a lot of catters putting down the press ... saying how everything they put out is just spin, spin and not to take the media seriously as it's all lies etc. etc. .. . Now that the carnival is at a crescendo I see more cut and pastes, links, and references to the media than ever before all for the sake of defending one's stand. Oh well .... biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:47 PM There comes a time when people must speak up and tell the truth ... as far as I'm concerned Powell was on one of the salesmen for this war (lie) which has cost the U.S. way too much money, so much so they have sold their souls, and most of all it has cost too many lives, too many broken bodies. His coming out at this time in the carnival to endorse Obama doesn't cut it for me. It's too late ... this is not the way and the time to apologize. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:43 AM *G* Powell wasn't targeting Canadian folkies when he made that endorsement. He was targeting middle America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:55 AM If I was too hasty in my remarks to DougR, it is probably because I was really shocked at his posting. Doug, I hope you do not believe Powell did this just because of race. And, I hope you aren't just parroting what you hear from Limbaugh, etc. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and extend a hand in friendship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:43 AM kat:I guess we have known each other for seven or eight years and we have traded remarks often during that time. To call me a racist is insulting. If you think I am, then you weren't much of a friend anyway. If Colin Powell took into account that Obama is African-American when he decided to support him, I wouldn't blame him, and I wouldn't consider him racist. He says he didn't and I accept him at his word. His reasoning for selecting an ill-equipped, inexperienced but admittedly talented communicator to support as President and Commander-in-chief, over a proven and experienced person like John McCain, though, makes no sense at all to me. If you think that is racist, so be it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM Colin Powell appears to have come to the conclusion that selecting Sarah Palin as his running mate for a job where she has to be available to take on the job of president from day one, if need be, McCain has shown a lack of judgement that outbalances the fact that he has had more years as a legislator than Obama. It's a perfectly reasonable position even if you disagree with it, Doug. And the suggestion that gratitude for promotion in one's career should influence a public servant in this kind of situation seems rather a shocking one. When you select someone for a job that should never be seen as a kind of bribe that buys their support in the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:42 AM I've got news for Rush Limbaugh. If Powell's support of O'Bama is all about race, then any white person backing McCain is also about race. Doug, have you taken a good look at McCain's experience? What has he done to qualify him for the job of president? 5th from the bottom at Annapolis. Crashed 5 very expensive planes.Booze, women, troublemaker. all of these things he admits. He was called Mcnasty in school. He has a temper, he's impulsive and erratic. He dumped his badly injured wife for a "Chick", and he was "Doing" her while he was still married. There are two good things about McCain that I appreciate. 1. He conducted himself with honor while a prisoner in Viet Nam, and he told that witless old cow on tv that Obama is not an Arab, that he is a decent family man, and that we should not fear his becoming president. Now, O'Bama has in his camp, Warren Buffet, Colin Powell, and Joe Biden to fill in his gaps. McCain has a gang of former Attorneys General,and Caribou Barbie, all loyal Republicans. How can they stack up? Here is a man who called his wife the most disgusting name in the book, IN PUBLIC. It rhymes with hunt.Don't believe it? go to google and look it up. He has his good points, but qualifications to be president is not one of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM "Crashed 5 very expensive planes" Actually 3 can be attributed to being 'crashed'by McCain .... 1 was shot down over V. Vietnam in combat (as we all know, or should know). 1 was hit by a stray rocket while he was waiting for takeoff on the USS Forrestal. Again ... not endorsing McCain ... just getting some facts straight. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM I hope you aren't just parroting what you hear from Limbaugh, etc. Of course he is- always has done. Doug also thinks his puerile attempts at "humor" are amusing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:41 AM I went to google. I looked ut up. I don't believe it. If anyone can the find the name of just one witness to this public statement, other than the smear book author, I could believe it. Alternatively, if anyone could find a reliable soutce where McCain tacitly admitted it by saying "I was tired," that would be a start, too. If a hundred left wing bloggers repeat the same story, that doesn't make it true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:39 AM Actually, DougR, I would be outraged, except over the years I have come to understand that you are a fellow so trapped in your views, and so handicapped by your inability to analyze your own positions, that you really cannot help yourself. Let's take a look at your own words, eh? I wonder what Barak O'Bama offered him? Must have been pretty good, though, since he said Race had nothing to do with his decision. OK, let's start with the first paragraph, O Great American. Did the thought ever occur to you that no one did anything for Colin Powell? Did the thought ever occur to you that he worked his way up to four star, and the Chair of the Joint Chiefs by virtue of hard work, bravery in battle, caring for his men, etc? Did it ever occur to you that he became National Security Adviser and then Secretary of State because he had worked hard at developing the necessary skill set? And all these things during a shameful time in our country's history when nothing more than the amount of melanin in one's skin could sink a career? This man overcame race and achieved high position on the basis of great character. And all you can do is act like some white guy did him a favor?????? The position you take only causes me to pity you, not to respect a well thought out counter opinion. Your statement is racist, DougR, but you will never admit or even be able to see that. You are trapped by your blinders. Then you go on and attack the motivations of Powell, an honorable man by all accounts from the Right and the Left, by suggesting he only made the endorsement because of some specious "offer". First off, McCain himself said that Obama is a decent, hard working, family oriented, American whom McCain simply has fundamental disagreements with. Obama himself was taken by surprise by the endorsement, and had no prior knowledge. Can you not see that your specious attacks on the honor of a decent and patriotic American (Obama, as well as Powell) are based on a terrible cynicism that is decidedly unAmerican? To those that think I am being too hard on DougR, please understand that I am sick to death of these attacks from right wingers who think that God speaks only through them, that they have the only answers. I am sick to death of folks that hide their bigotry and intolerance behind nice demeanors and the American flag. Being a left winger, a Democrat, and a progressive DOES NOT make me any less patriotic than you, Sir. On the basis of my service to my country in the military, on the field, as a community volunteer for many agencies, by my political involvement, by my community organizing efforts, by my union organizing to help working families, and every other thing I do to enhance our society, I claim my right to say that I love this country every bit as much as you. In fact I respect its diversity and recognize its beauty much better than you. And I claim the right to call you, and those who think like you, by your name. You have a skewed vision of what "America" is, and if allowed to go unchallenged, we will continue our slide from the Land of Promise all the way down to the just another civilization that failed. Which will it be, Doug? Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM It's not racism on Doug's part, in my opinion, it's just a set of mental blinders he has on when it comes to partisan issues. He simply HAD to come up with some kind of unjustifiable reason for Powell to endorse Obama, since no justifiable reason could occur to him for such an endorsement. Therefore he saw what he thought was a form of race prejudice and/or personal opportunism showing itself in Colin Powell. This is what the human mind does when it turns itself inside out trying to find a rationale, any rationale, that supports its own established viewpoint. Nevertheless, Mick, you have stated your views on the matter powerfully and well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM It is sad when being a dedicated Republican has become such a 'faith' that one cannot see when their party had been co-opted by folks who do a disservice to its basic principles. When bad choices in candidates are made and bad campaigning is employed in order retain power at any cost, it casts a pall over the entire structure. When one has to close one's eyes & squint to avoid seeing appalling negative ads and convoluted rationalizations of obviously irrelevant & inaccurate assertions about one's opponents, it suggests that loyalty is overriding sense & logic. Many, many respected **REPUBLICAN** columnists, pundits, fellow congressmen and just plain party members have realized that the GOP has strayed way off course, and that it is time to concede this one and regroup in order to reclaim the party from the Karl Roves & Bush's & Cheney's & David Addington's who have tried to create a fiefdom, rather than just a party with a conservative view. When MY party was running against Bob Dole and Gerald Ford and Dwight Eisenhower and worried about running against Rockefeller and Howard Baker and others, I worked to win, but did not fear those honorable men. It's time we returned to that situation. Do not fret...Obama is an intelligent, hard working man who cares...and he will NOT drive the country into ruin. Even hard-core conservatives won't find their lives ruined and the world in chaos because this young man of mixed heritage has disrupted Karl Rove's idea of perpetual power.....just wait.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM Sorry, Hawk, but I have to disagree. The racism may not be intentional, but it is what it is. That posts suggests that Powell, a man of integrity and accomplishment and bravery and compassion, who happens to be African American, achieved what he did by virtue of some white guy doing him a favor. Whether it was benign or overt, that is still a racist view and must be called out for what it is. I am sure DougR sees himself as a nice guy, but those sentiments are not. And this is one liberal, progressive, PATRIOT that will no longer sit by and allow these delusional, pseudo McCarthys to lay claim to the values of the country that I have spent a lifetime loving and trying to improve. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM I have a friend, not a close one, who said a while back, "If Colin Powell should run for president, I would vote for him." Now, months later after Powell came out for O'Bama, he said, "What did you expect? One nigger supporting another nigger." I reminded him of his original opinion of Powell and I haven't heard from him since. Sometimes the scalpel works better than a hatchet. Right, McBush? Heric, you didn't look very hard. Did you see the video of McCain's town hall meeting when the Baptist minister asked him about that incident and he refused to answer? We all know he is a lifetime womanizer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM No, but I'll go and find it if you won't point me to it (or the witnesses or the tacit admission.) However, I read that he (or his campaign statement) denied it flat out "Never happened." If I were him, I would answer that question once and only once. (It will be really something to hear a Baptist minister saying c*nt on TV.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM Ref. these statements about our friend, Doug R, as long as they are put forth as OPINIONS, that's fine. He knows he is in a nest of left wing liberals and should expect such opinions. However, if they are stated as FACT, that's a different story. I thought he was just trying to inject some balance here. I disagree with his politics, but I have to say he strikes me as a good man. That's my opinion, for what it's worth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM "If a hundred left wing bloggers repeat the same story, that doesn't make it true..." Hey, it worked for Joseph Goebbels. He was a socialist too, remember? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:39 AM I stand corrected. McCain crashed only 3 planes, not 5. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM Heric, I just checked, and it is there.Look again. You may need to remove your blindfold. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Jeri Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:43 AM It's primarily about race if you're a racist. Kendall, when did you give Obama the pet name? That's usually what someone does when they're making fun of a person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:43 AM The dramatically despicable hatemonger, Rush Limbaugh, has asserted that Powell's endorsement is first and foremosty about race. In asserting this, Mr Limbaugh has sustained his own reputation for hatefulness and hateability. Furthermore he has revealed that he has great powers of telepathic insight, perhaps induced by his own drug adfdiction years, to read Mr Powell's mind, ignore the rational expressions which come out of his mouth, and cut through to the dark inner Freudian calculations which "must be there" according to Mister Limbaugh's impeccable track record in performing telepathy and psychoanalysis. But unlike Mister Limbaugh, Colin Powell is not a charlatan. He is a tragic figure, in that his own loyalty to his duty forced him to compromise his integrity before the UNited Nations, an act he has publically regretted and apologized for. And unlike Colin Powell, Rush Limbaugh is and charlatan. He markets anger, and uses anger to flog his prospects. He does so very profitably, no mistake. But his anger, like most regurgitated anger, has no truth in it. He peddles falsehoods, deals in histrionic distortion as a stock in trade, and does not know what truthfulness is or sounds like. He could learn, if he listened to Powell. But he is too busy trading in false realities to listen to anyone, except his accountant. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM Thank you, Mick. I'm sure that others also recognized DougR's impugning of Powell's career but no one posted that thought as well as you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM Captain, with all due respect, I suggest you go back and read my post, and not filter it through the fact you like Doug. It is purely based on his comments, and represents at all times what my opinion is of those comments. Doug made the comments, and I invite you, my dear friend, to respond to Doug's comments and not the fact that you like him. Those were despicable comments and representative of what is wrong, not what is right, with this country, my friend. For far too long we have allowed this stuff to go unchallenged, and not be criticized for what they are. No more. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM Like I said, no matter how much we disagree with his post, it is an opinion. It is wrong, but he is still entitled to it. One thing I like about being a liberal, and hanging out with liberals is, we can tolerate the opinions of those with whom we disagree. As to his comment on the rise of Colin Powell in a white world, I can only say "Rubbish" He got where he is by his ability, and being partly black has nothing to do with it. Now, that's my opinion of Doug's opinion. Who's to say which is more valid? Doug is badly outnumbered here, and I'm not going to "Pile on." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:19 PM I was going to leave this one, but the last post by my friend kendall requires a response. I am not piling on. I took his remarks and responded to them. He is the one who posted them. I did not join in any other comments, rather I simply posted my reaction to them. If others feel the same, they are simply responding as such. When you make a comment in a public forum, you implicitly state that you are inviting a response from the open public that reads it. When that public rejects it in large numbers, you got the response you sought. That is not piling on. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Cluin Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM DougR won't be "piled on". He pops in with Limbaugh one-liners to stir the pot then pisses off, sniigering up his sleeve. I don't know if Doug is racist, but his comments certainly were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM Mick, my friend, I was not accusing anyone of piling on. I simply stated that Doug was badly outnumbered, and most of us will find fault with his opinion. If I had a beef with you, or anyone else, you would be the first to know. Sorry you misunderstood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM Jeri, I did that about a month ago mostly to piss off my right wing friends who are anti O'Bama. It works, too. Then I found out that he actually does have Irish ancestors. That pisses them off even more! Gotta love it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:04 PM "Ancestry.com, the world's largest online resource for family history, is now able to confirm that U.S. presidential hopeful Barack Obama's Irish ancestors originated in Moneygall and neighboring Shinrone in County Offaly, Ireland." "Researchers initially thought that Obama's third great-grandfather, Falmouth Kearney, who sailed from Ireland to New York in 1850 at 19-years-old, was the only member of the family to emigrate. However, records reveal that other Kearney family members had in fact been in America since the 1790s." more here, including links to images of records |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM The assumption that Colin Powell only got where he did because of being given favours is bad enough - but it's accompanied by the assumption that when someone is given an important job that means that they owe a debt to the people who gave it to them. In other words, they are owned by their patron. That's how they do it in the Mafia I believe, and I'm sure it happens in other corrupt organisations, including political ones - but the idea that someone should be criticised for failing to act accordingly beggars description. That way of thinking doesn't bear examination - and that's why it deserves to be examined, and having been examined, discarded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:42 PM Some here may find this dailykos diary interesting: Photographic Proof : Powell Endorsement ABOUT RACE! by Jimmy Crackcorn Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 04:14:24 AM PDT http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/21/6491/7750/376/637293 Here's the first paragraph in that diary: "Poor Rush Limbaugh. He just can't get over the fact that Colin Powell thought that Barack Obama was a better man to be President than John McCain. In Rush Limbaugh's eyes, the only reason that Powell could have possibly endorsed Obama was because they share the same skin color. Yesterday Rush has this to say: 'Now, back to General Powell. I just want to button this up, because the Drive-Bys had a tizzy over my allegation that his nomination was about race. Well, let me say it louder, and let me say it even more plainly: It was totally about race! The Powell nomination or endorsement was totally about race.' -snip- Here's a list of noted Republicans featured in that diary-without their accompanying quotes & photos: "Son of the National Review's founder Christopher Buckley is voting for Obama because he's black... Granddaughter of the 34th President Susan Eisenhower is voting for Obama because she's black... Neocon Kenneth Adelman is voting for Obama because he's black... Conservative drunk Christopher Hitchens is voting for Obama because he's black... Conservative Talker Michael Smerconish is voting for Obama because he's black... One time publisher of the National Review Wick Allison is voting for Obama because he's black... Conservative author Andrew J. Bacevich is voting for Obama because he's black... Conservative author Andrew J. Bacevich is voting for Obama because he's black... Former Republican Senator Lincoln Chafee is voting for Obama because he's black... Former 15 term Republican Congressman Jim Leach is voting for Obama because he's black... and finally, Colin Powell is voting for Obama because he's the best man for the job... -snip- Gee, I didn't know that all these folks were Black. I guess my Black radar must be faulty. Or maybe these people endorsed Barack Obama because, as Colin Powell said, Obama's the best man running for the job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM Btw, welcome to Mudcat Mike in Brunswick! [who posted on 20 Oct 08 - 10:15 PM] -Azizi in Pittsburgh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM IF it makes Rush Limbaugth feel better, I voted for Barzack Obama because I am black. Also, because I am white, yellow, tan, straight, gay, female, and Oriental. No manne is an islande. Except, perhaps, for the highly toxic and badly deranged Rush Limbaugh. Well, maybe not an island...a whale, perhaps, but less sensitive. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM because they share the same skin color. The daft thing is, they don't actually. For what it's worth, which isn't much, Colin Powell is even paler than Obama. I've got neighbours without any ancestors from Africa more recently than the Old Stone Age who come back from holiday looking a lot darker than him. Hell, they go off on holiday looking as dark as he does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Jeri Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM I want a T-shirt: 'I voted for Obama because I'm Black'. It's kinda like Kennedy and the 'Icht bin ein whosit' thingie. Racists and some lost Republicans are grasping at straws because they won't see why their world is changing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM Riginslinger, Goebbels was not a socialist. The National Socialist Party of Germany, better known as Nazis, were not socialists. They attacked and suppressed all leftists, communists, and socialists in Germany at that time. They were extremely to the right, politically speaking, and were the best friends of huge privately owned capitalist enterprises in Germany, who worked hand in glove with the Nazis, because German re-armament meant windfall profits for those industries. The name "National Socialist" was a complete misnomer for the Nazis....if you take it to mean a connection with socialism. They vigorously opposed the socialists of their day, persecuted and killed them, and helped crush a fledgling socialist society in Spain before WWII even started. In short, you don't know what the heck you are talking about when you call Goebbels a socialist, and to link Obama to Goebbels is just downright stupid. It is the Bush/Cheney/Rove regime that has demonstrated tactics and tendencies reminiscent of Naziism...and quite blatantly in fact. They resemble the Nazis in just about every cardinal point (except anti-Jewish pogroms). Well....at least you can't accuse them of being (horrors!) "socialists", can you? ;-) Because they're not. They're fascists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,Justin U Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM Don't think all this business of getting lots of votes just by mouthing off and criticising Americans is new. Its not. American politicians have been doing it for years. I mean, Obama's last platform was basically saying " Surely your not stupid enough to vote for me are you? " To which the American people responded with a resounding "YES!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM Justin: Are as wide as you are shallow? Your understanding of Obama's campaign shows all the insight of a blind threelegged rat in the bilge of a sinking ship. Wake up and smell the coffee, feller. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:48 PM Yeah, right.... ;-D You're an amusing one, Justin. Comedians could use you to portray neo-Nazi skinheads for laughs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM If I have learned ONE thing on this forum it is: those with a liberal bent believe they are justified in writing anything their progressive little heart desires, and it is perfectly okay. It is assumed that only liberals have the right to free speech on the Mudcat. One with opposing views is a racist, stupid, ignorant, whatever. The Mudcat way: viciously launch a personal attack on anyone who disagree with your political views. An you call yourself liberals. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:16 PM ad hominem attacks are the GOP way, so all's right with the world, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM Oh, well, it's a habit that is found freely on both sides of the political divide, and always has been. People generally only complain when their political opponents indulge in such unpleasant tactics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM When we find ourselves using expressions like "those with a liberal bent" or "the GOP way" in disputes with other Mudcatters that should perhaps be a signal to us to hold off posting until we have cooled down. We write our posts as individuals, not as part of a collective. When we write something that is interpreted as racist, and it wasn't meant as racist, that should be a signal to us to have a good look at what we have written. Maybe it's been misinterpreted, and we need to explain ourselves better. Maybe there was actually something racist in it, and we need to think again. Or maybe, of course, the person responding has unfairly twisted what we said into something that we didn't mean, and which doesn't match with what we actually said. But we shouldn't assume that that last one is the right one until we've looked at the first two. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:34 PM Ya know this reminds of the folks who try to hide their racism by saying they like Obama but won't vote for him because they are afraid for his life. First, that is condescending and smacks of "massa" telling the "boy" they know what's best for him. Second, if they really are worried about that, they wouldn't vote for a white man since every prez who has been assassinated has been white! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM No, Doug, but it is useful to point out that I made my case based on your words, and constructed my criticisms based on that. In other words, I held you responsible for your own words. Your response? Something on the order of whining. No response to the specific points I raised. I believe that is because they are indefensible. Your response, or lack thereof, is the equivalent of "Oh yeah?". Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM The suggestion that a Black man can't accomplish what Powell did and reach the levels of authority that he did without people doing him favors for which he owes his loyalty is implicitly racist. The suggestion that someone like Powell gets to the level he did because of favors and for that reason, owes the Republican party his support for whatever candidate they tell him to support, is implicitly corrupt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:21 PM And the very idea of owing loyalty in return for favours in this kind of context is also profoundly corrupt, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:29 PM Doug, did you read any of my posts on this subject? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM Now, don't be like that, Dougie... You know that this ol' commie hillbilly loves ya' don'tcha but... ...let's get real here... Yeah, progressives are more than a little torqued about the daily barrage of persoanl and mostly irrelevant attacks on Obama an' when we say to Obama, "Hey, let's strike back" he says, "No!"... Yeah, it more than sucks but we understand that part of the deal is that we gotta act civil out there on the street... We ain't 'sposed to say nuthin' bad about Hot Lips Sarah 'er the old guy (jus' funnin'... I know yer old nuff to be McCain grandfather...lol...) so... ...after yet another day of being out there and having folks tell you to "stick it up yer _______" when yer out there knockin' on doors for Obama and havin' to smile as if they jsut told you how much they respected him this, as per usual, is the joint where we come to get the crap off our chest... Maybe that kinda tough fir you you to internalize, Dougie... I understand that... Maybe a few hours of canvassing for McCain in South Philly would give ya' some idea... I donno... What I do know is that I'll be happy to have this campaign over because I'm getting very sick of hearing John McCain lie thru his teeth and I'm getting very sick of Ms. Sarah... But I still loves you, Dougie, so... ...come on over here and get a hug, Big Guy... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM Carol C: I did not state or imply that Colin Powell's achievements were not earned. In my opinion he deserved every promotion and appointment he received. It is not racist, in my opinion, to point out, however, that his abilities and accomplishments were recognized by Republican administrations. His argument about Gov. Palin not being qualified is also only an opinon. The same could be said of Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush. All ex governors of their states. What on earth has Obama done in his short life equal to their experience. Beats me. Mick: I did not reply to your post because after scanning it, I did not deem it worthy of a reply. I did not write my views in order to argue with anyone. I merely stated my opinion. You have a right to yours and I have a right to mine. I did not intend anything I said to be taken as racist. Anyone who read it as such, has a right to make of it what he/she chooses. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM Well, then, I will just say that the idea that someone like Powell is obliged to support whichever presidential candidate the Republicans tell him to because it was Republicans who recognized his abilities and accomplishments, is implicitly corrupt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:52 PM "...It is assumed that only liberals have the right to free speech on the Mudcat." No, no such thing is assumed.... but I'll assure you that 'free speech' only makes sense when it is a simple dispute over issues! When hateful remarks and total lies tinged with racism are tossed out in the guise of 'free speech', someone is bound to notice! You, Doug, only skirt that line with innuendo....folks like Justin U and Sawsaw and a couple others have been absolutely nasty. When folks you have called 'friends' here for years notice your attitude, you need to examine what you have said. Perhaps it's that, for 8 years, you could laugh behind your hand at their futile efforts to get THEIR candidate into office. Hard to be so flippant and happy when it looks bad, huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM here's a fine line between speech and manure, Doug, Maybe you didn't notice the line as you stepped past... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,Justin U Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:56 PM DougR, Please don't get annoyed over it, it's a forum. I have had several of my posts removed for no reason other than showing support for McCain and Palin, and I've had Mick coming in heavy on me on other threads. He has his view, you and I have ours. In fact earlier today a lady called me a racist ! Christ I don't even drive.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:59 PM Well, thems is some good points, too, Bill... I have noticed a certain shrill from the Bushites this time around... Maybe they'll better understand the election of 2000 and how better than half the voters felt back then if Obama wins... Seems that lots of them must think that is about to happen 'cause they certainly have become very beligerant of late... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,Justin U Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM Yeah you could be right there bobert, and that coming from a man prepared to drive a 1,000 miles to annoy his hero sitting at the sick bed of his dying granny ! You did say in your other thread you are going to see Obama tomorrow did't you ????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:06 PM drive to Hawaii? You are geographically challenged, guest J.U. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:00 PM >I have noticed a certain shrill from the Bushites this time around... < Music to my ears; A sweet sweet song of spring. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:04 PM Ahhhhh, Justin, ol' son... You don't exactly drive from Virgina to Hawaii... Okay, you can drive from Virgina to California and then fly the rest of the way but... ...nevermind... This is all hurtin' my poor ol' head... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:46 PM Doug said Colin Powell, ungratefully "turned on the Republicans": implication: they, not his own work and talent, made him the first black 4-star general. I'm sure Doug meant his remark to not be seen as racist. And he's not really too happy about the fact that it comes across as exactly that. Just like good ol' Michelle Bachmann is backtracking in record time from her remark about how liberals are un-American. And that NC Congressman is having the same problem. Funny how so many of them turn out to be Bush supporters. Well, there is a cure for that sort of thing. Doug, Michelle, and assorted others could actually think before they open their mouths--(or in Doug's case) before he hits "send".) But of course their hero, GWB, never puts his mind--we make the possibly rash assumption that he has one-- in gear before opening his mouth--and even then, only rarely-- --so why should they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:54 AM Doug is reacting to Powell's endorsement of Obama very similarly to the way an Obama supporter here would react to Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter or some other prominent Democrat coming out and endorsing McCain......can you imagine what the reactions to that would be among Obama supporters???!!! ;-) Omigod. No, so Doug of course doesn't like Powell's endorsement of Obama one bit, and he instinctively feels that Powell is betraying his party and his past political associations. And that, in a nutshell, is one of the truly awful things about partisan politics right there. It interferes with people's right to act as free individuals, to use their own judgement, and to not be accused by the party faithful of selling out when they do. Partisanship of that sort is the enemy of conscience, responsibility, and freedom of thought, in my opinion. Colin Powell should be able to act as a free human being, endorse whomever he wishes, and not be condemned on a partisan basis for doing so. The same goes for Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, and anyone else. They do NOT have to toe party line, and there is no reason why they necessarily should. But how people react to what Powell did will have to do with really only one thing, ultimately: it will have to do with who THEY want to see elected president, Obama or McCain. If they want Obama elected, they'll be delighted with what Powell did (As I am, for instance). If they want McCain elected they'll be disgusted with what Powell did (as Doug is, for instance). And it's that simple. Everyone's in it in order to see their own political agenda met and their own hopes for the election met. It's their "party" and they'll cry if they want to! ;-) Just admit that no one here has a monopoly on patriotism or morality or ethical perfection of any sort, and get on with it. You all want someone specific to win this thing, and that will govern how you judge just about everything that happens from here till election day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:59 AM I must disagree, Little Hawk, that I/we would react "very similarly" to how DougR reacted in this case if Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter endorsed McCain. I have no doubt but that first I would be flummoxed - What in the world? and then - since I respect both men's thought processes - I would seek reasons. Payback for political favors would not be amongst them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,Justin U Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:43 AM what is the definition of a racist post on mudcat ? One that doesn't support Obama. Unfair Joe, we all hold our viewpoints.
Think it's unfair? Talk about whatever else you wish, making sure you're on your best behavior. If that's not satisfactory, you're free to go elsewhere. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:29 AM I didn't hear any gnashing of teeth when Clinton, democrat, appointed Bill Cohen, republican, to his high office. Doug, if you were to walk into a yard full of dogs, knowing that some of them might bite, and you started irritating them, what would you expect to happen? Old Maine saying, "If you know the dog bites..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:48 AM Doug said Colin Powell, ungratefully "turned on the Republicans" What certain unthinking people don't get is that tho Powell may have turned on the BuShites, he did NOT torn on the Republicans- they ain't the same. This almost gives one hope that the rational, thinking Republicans of old may finally be wresting control of their Party from the lunatic element that since Reagan and especially since Rove has made their party an object of derision. I said almost- I'm not holding my breath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:50 AM Okay, Ebbie, perhaps you are an exception? ;-) I'd be interested to see what happened if my hypothetical scenario occurred. I think there'd be a frenzy of infuriated reactions that would make Doug's snarky comments about Colin Powell look mild in comparison. That doesn't mean those reactions would come from every Obama supporter here...just from a lot of them. It's just normal, average human nature for people to be that way when they get caught up in partisan politics...and that's one reason why I don't like partisan politics, as a rule. It causes people's reserves of goodwill to dry up and vanish. It is the author of continual conflict and division in a population. Ancient societies attempted to concentrate power in a single monarch or family line precisely to avoid the dangers of those sort of fractious divisions, which could easily slide into civil war at any time (when various nobles and powerful houses were jockeying for power against one another). The trouble with monarchs, of course, was that if the specific monarch turned out to be a fool or a jackass or an incompetent ruler...well, you were just stuck with him regardless till he died. ;-) No system is perfect, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM Right you are, Greg. Susan Eisenhower Chris Buckley Paul Volcker Gen. Colin Powell Some others. And that does not include quite a few with a bit lower profile. Basically it includes anybody who thinks--belonging to any party--or none. That leaves those who don't think---or make over $250,000 clear profit per year-- as the Bush/McCain supporters--and we've seen some of their remarks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: jeffp Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:57 AM Colin Powell didn't even belong to a political party until he left the Army. As a military officer, he didn't feel that it was proper to belong to a partisan organization. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM Maybe next time round the Republicans will have had a house cleansing, and they'll have Powell as their candidate for president... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:46 PM McGrath: I likely would have voted for Powell over McCain. L.H.: I choose to believe your opinion over Ellie's regarding endorsements. Had any of the prominent Democrats you mentioned endorsed McCain over Obama one would have heard the Mudcat screams from Hawaii to Washisngton, D. C.. I was less pissed than disappointed about Powell's endorsement of Obama. I felt is reasoning was extremely weak. Kendall:I doubt I would step into a backyard should there be pack of threatening dogs there. Llamas maybe, but not dogs. Judging by the hate posted by some of my fellow mudcatters on this thread in respnse to my post, I assume were Max to announce a new policy stating that folks with views other than those espoused by "progressives" or "liberals" would no longer be welcome on the Mudcat, the majority here would approve. Stamp out dissent! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM "I assume were Max to announce a new policy stating that folks with views other than those espoused by "progressives" or "liberals" would no longer be welcome on the Mudcat, the majority here would approve. Stamp out dissent!" That is truly an unfortunate view, Doug.... no one has suggested limiting "dissent", they have only condemned mean-spirited sounding posts. There are several 'dissenters' on here regularly, and they get heard....then they get argued with. Sure, Mudcat has 'more' left-leaning than right-leaning posters, but most of them argue about points & logic...until they feel they detect unfair comments. As I said before, when folks you have debated with for YEARS think they see UNfairness in your posts, it might be well to review HOW you said what you said. You have always been one who was respected, as well as argued with...I'd hate to see that change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM "As a military officer, he didn't feel that it was proper to belong to a partisan organization." I think that speaks very well for Colin Powell's own good judgement. He would make a rather good future candidate for either party, I would think. Back when it seemed inevitable that Hillary Clinton would be the one to run on the Democratic ticket in 2008, it occurred to me that the most classic possible Republican opponent to run against her would be Condoleeza Rice! Not that I'm saying it would have been at all likely a scenario, but it certainly would have been entertaining... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM But Doug, you HAVE stepped into a nest of left wing rowdies and you know it. To piss us off then complain when we react reminds me of the little boy who came home with a black eye. His dad said "How did that happen"? Kid says, :"It all started when he hit me back." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM horse puckey, I say. Let's have a show of hands as to what each individual's probable reaction would be to Clinton or Carter endorsing the opposite candidate! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: jacqui.c Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM Seriously, I can well understand why Colin Powell turned on the Republicans. After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him? I mean other than naming him first African American to head the Joint Chief's of Staff, first African-American four star general, first African-American National Security Adviser, and first African-American Secretary of State. That came over as a very negative, racially biased post to me Doug. Maybe you should take Bill D's advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM Gee, Ebbie, that's going to be a bit tough to engineer isn't it? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: jacqui.c Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM If Clinton or Carter endorsed a Republican I think that most people might have to stop and find out why. If they were able to give articulate, reasoned arguments for that choice then anyone with half a brain would have to think about whether their own choice was being made purely as a result of holding the party line. Powell gave some very good reasons for his endorsement of Obama, none of which had anything to do with race at all. They had to do with his own opinion as to who would make the best president of the USA. To my mind that was a very patriotic thing to do - he is going against the party he has been aligned with, probably at some risk to his own possible future prospects, in order to do what he sees as best for his country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM Old Jewish saying: If a man calls you an ass, ignore him. If TWO men call you an ass, buy a saddle." Now Doug, I am NOT calling you an ass. I'm simply saying that if you are one in a hundred who has an opposite opinion, it's likely that yours is wrong. However, in this country you have a right to be wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Emma B Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM 'probably at some risk to his own possible future prospects' then again.......... probably not 'WASHINGTON: US Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said on Monday that if he is elected, he will ask former secretary of state Colin Powell to serve as an advisor in his administration. "He (Powell) will have a role as one of my advisers. He has already served in that function, even before he endorsed me." Obama said on NBC's Today show. "Whether he wants to take a formal role, whether that's a good fit for him, is something we'd have to discuss," he added.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM "After all, what have Republican presidents ever done for him?" Surely the implication of that sentence is not just that Powell should have felt grateful to previous presidents for advancing him (in itself very questionable), but also that he ought to have regarded such personal feelings of gratitude as more important than doing what he believed to be in the good of his country. Is that really what you think Doug? Even if you think he was mistaken in his judgement. .......................... So far as the imagined notion of Clinton (either of them) backing McCain goes, I think a widespread assumption, if that had happened, would have been that this reflected feelings of resentment, and that it therefore deserved to be scorned. I think many Republicans, even if they felt pleased at the development, would have shared this assumption and felt that scorn. If it had been Carter on the other hand it would probably have been widely seen, even by many people who felt it was totally wrong-headed, as an honourable decision reflecting a genuine view by an honourable man that McCain deserved to be supported. (I think it might well have made a lot of Republicans a bit more reluctant to vote for McCain, but that is another matter.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: heric Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM When Richardson came out for Obama there was a huge outcry from Clinton and supporters about his disloyalty and ingratitude. I don't recall how it played out on mudcat threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM Maybe if Powell hadn't attacked Sarah Palin the reality of his endorsement having been actually his, instead of a political talking point, would have been more believable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,Mary in Colorado Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM Mick, I did a web search for a song I just heard on the radio called "After the War" and came up with your 1999 post with lyrics for Tim Irvine's song. I can't seem to find anything else about it. Did someone else record it? Do you have any idea where I can find it? Thank you, thank you. mkwmkw@aol.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:55 PM There is always a huge outcry when any political figure breaks from "the pack" and goes his own way. Always. It's standard rhetoric, standard BS, nothing to be surprised about at all when it happens. And you can't determine it by a hypothetical "show of hands", Ebbie. It has to REALLY happen. Then and only then will you see people's real reactions out in the open and unconcealed. Example of that kind of thing: The Kerry campaign made a great error in 2004. They decided that to fight back aggressively against vicious smear campaigns against John Kerry would simply lose them credibility and support. They determined this by conducting informal polls amongst their support base asking the question: "Do you like/not like negative campaigning" (I'm paraphrasing it...I don't know exactly how they worded it, but that's what it amounted to). Most people said they didn't like it. Ha! So Kerry didn't do it. But people did not answer truthfully, probably because they just aren't that aware of themselves. The fact is, they LOVE negative campaigning when the negativity is directed toward the OTHER side! They just love it to death. Observe the utter glee among Democrats and liberals whenever Sarah Palin is made fun of and ridiculed, whenever Bush is made fun of and ridiculed, whenever McCain is made fun of and ridiculed. Most liberals AND conservatives absolutely LOVE negative campaining as long as the darts are being hurled at their desired target of choice. The more the better. Keep in mind, I want Obama to win this thing. I am disgusted with Bush and McCain, I am extremely wary regarding Sarah Palin, and I don't agree one bit with their policies or philosophies. So I am not saying the things I say here out of an anti-Obama stance. Quite the contrary. I am simply recognizing human nature for what it usually is....subjective, prejudiced, opportunistic, frequently nasty, and extremely judgemental of others (specially when it comes to religion and politics). Like Mark Twain, I note this about human nature, and I comment on it when I see it happening...no matter which side of the political line it happens on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM "Had any of the prominent Democrats you mentioned endorsed McCain over Obama one would have heard the Mudcat screams from Hawaii to Washisngton, D. C.." What about Lieberman? I realize that his abdication from the Democratic mainstream is old news, but he IS an example of a "prominent Democrat" endoring McCain. "Maybe if Powell hadn't attacked Sarah Palin the reality of his endorsement having been actually his, instead of a political talking point, would have been more believable." Wow! Is it really so hard to believe that an intelligent guy like Powell might have concluded on his own that the choice of Palin was a remarkably cynical and irresponsible move? I mean, you might think she's perfectly OK, which is your right, but an awful lot of people take the oppostie position, and you can hardly assert that every one of us is following some kind of party-line script! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:10 PM Rig: Your point is wholly illogical. He expressed his own point of view aboout why he was disenchanted with the GOP, and Palin's inadequacy (to say the least) was a key part, entirely his own view. He expressed his views clearly and well. Including his own view of Ms Palin's suitability for high office. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM I had a few choice words for Lieberman when he betrayed his chosen party and I lost all respect for him when he did, but I sure didn't use anything racial or ethnic against him...guess I could have said something about what all the Dems have done for those of Jewish faith over the years and how could he not be grateful, etc. (that's sarcasm in case you can't tell.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM you can hardly assert that every one of us is following some kind of party-line script! I bet he can, and probably will. It's possible to assert anything whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:19 PM "He expressed his own point of view aboout why he was disenchanted with the GOP, and Palin's inadequacy..." There are only two questions remaining to be answered relative to Powell's announcement on Press the Meat: 1.Who really wrote the text of the material he recited there? And 2.How long did it take him to memorize it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM Do you have any grounds at all for that slur, RIg? Other than just being a meatball? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM Didn't sound rehearsed to me. Sarah Palin is an air head who has no clue about the office of Vice president. I understand she has good taste in clothes, at $150,000 a pop she sure as hell didn't shop at Goodwill! Doug, you asked what qualifications O'Bama has? An IQ that is over the moon. He taught Constitutional law, (something Palin could do with some knowledge of) He is willing to call on people who know what they are doing, Biden, Powell, Buffet etc.He was a community organizer. Remember, Jesus was a community organizer, Pontius Pilate was a governor. McCain's qualifications? he crashed three planes, ran around on his wife,graduated 5th from the bottom of his class of 900 at Annapolis, admits to being a boozer, a philanderer and trouble maker. Palin? she can field dress a Moose. I can just picture her trying to deal with Putin, or any of the Muslim leaders. They would eat her alive! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM It's become apparent since the comments were made that Powell intends to do something with Obama if Obama gets elected. When the comments were made, that wasn't a consideration. The reason Powell slimed Palin was an attempt to give a boost to Obama. That's pretty obvious now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM No, he doesn't have any grounds for it, Amos. ;-) He's engaging in wishful thinking, that's all. It's another common symptom of the partisan mentality. Amazing how Colin Powell has shrunk in Rig's mind from a highly respected figure to a pathetic shill who can't even think for himself in a mere 24 hours...just because he chose to back Barack Obama. ;-) "Why...the man (Powell) must be a complete loser! An idiot! A coward! A racist! A sell-out, spineless, unprincipled gully jumper! A secret Muslim sympathizer. And worse than all of that.... a socialist!!!" LOL!!! I wonder if Rig will beg for refugee status in Canada if Obama wins the election? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM Why wouldn't he want to give a boost to Obama if he favors him for president? Maybe he really thinks that Palin is not qualified. Is that a possibility, Rig? Just maybe??? ("Naw.....couldn't be! Inconceivable!") God, it's amazing how the human mind works when it's set itself on a path...it becomes a one-way reality filter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM "if Powell hadn't attacked Sarah Palin" " The reason Powell slimed Palin " He did neither...he carefully explained that he didn't think she was qualified. you are now beneath contempt.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM "Maybe he really thinks that Palin is not qualified. Is that a possibility, Rig? Just maybe???" He could be blind enough to think that, in which case he would be sexist! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Donuel Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM Bill, you are above and beside contempt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:26 PM What happens when one goes beneath contempt? I've always wondered about that. Ain't it lovely what politics brings out in people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM There's no bottom to it, if somebody goes beneath contempt! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:55 PM Kendall: "Jesus was a community organizer." Really? Well, you could have sure fooled me. Methinks the halo above Obama's head has affected your thinking, my friend. No point is comparing McCain's experience to Obama's. It's obvious to any thinking person. Even Palen has had more executive experience than Obama. Obama is an excellent communicator (if he has a teleprompter) without that aid, though, he's just average. One would think, listening to him extemporaneously though, one might think he invented the words, "Uh," "and, and". Just another thought, you folks may be planning your celebration victory a mite too soon. I heard today that the latest AP poll puts them neck and neck with Obama leading by one percentage point. No landslide that. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM folks you have debated with for YEARS ... You have always been one who was respected... With this man's posting history, God knows why. I sure don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM Because for years he was a member of "the loyal opposition" and tried to be humorous and reasonable in his disputes. This issue has gotten awkward and divisive and made folks say things in ways they 'may' think better of later. It is hard to tell in this virtual medium exactly what is in someone's heart.... I hazarded a guess that the specter of losing after 8 years of winning has been hard to take and made friendly banter difficult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM We really have nothing to worry about, folks. Moose-dresser and Neiman-Marcus/Saks5thAve maven, Sarah, will be in charge of the Senate before she becomes prez, so she'll have lots of experience...just like Senator Obama (my emphasis): Palin replied, "...a vice president has a really great job, because not only are they there to support the president's agenda, they're like the team member, the teammate to that president." "But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to, they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job," she added. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:20 PM It might be helpful to keep in mind that she was talking to children, and the Vice President does preside over the Senate. In addition to that, when the president fosters legislation, members of the administration do in fact have to work with senators. I don't think she was really off base at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM If Joe Biden had said it that way, you'd get the point.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM Sarah, will be in charge of the Senate before she becomes prez, Unless of course McCain drops dead with surprise if he wins in November. Any vice-president has to be up to doing the job on Day One. More especially when the president is 72. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: jacqui.c Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:38 PM She was not talking to children - she was talking to a REPORTER about an earlier meeting with children. In any case, are you suggesting that it doesn't matter if she gives children an erroneous description of the VP's duties? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:38 PM She was NOT talking directly to children. She was answering a question sent in by a boy to the tv journalist who was interviewing her. Using the children as an excuse is really something. By your standards, it's okay for her to give a child misinformation then they could grow up to be just like her! After all, what do kids know? You can tell them anything and they'll believe it, right? Telling them the truth doesn't matter. The powers of the VP are spelled out very clearly and carefully in the Constitution. She really should read it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM "...are you suggesting that it doesn't matter if she gives children an erroneous description of the VP's duties?" I'm suggesting that if she were talking to children, she might feel like she needed to simplify things. But it's probably that way with reporters as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM "The powers of the VP are spelled out very clearly and carefully in the Constitution. She really should read it." I cited the constitution on another thread. It says pretty much what Palin said |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM "If Joe Biden had said it that way, you'd get the point...." If Joe Biden had said it, it probably would have had something to do with FDR taking command of the situation several years before he was elected and going on television twenty years before it was invented to calm the people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:47 PM Someday, I hope the Palin-scales fall from your eyes and you will see clearly. Until then, it is senseless to respond to you..it matters not what any might say...it will be the way you see it and that is that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM I suppose the good news is, the election will be over soon :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM That's for dang sure. I can hardly wait. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:15 PM That's not how I read the US Constitution, Rig. The role of Vice President in the Constitution is given fairly short shrift. By the way, you need a shot of progesterone. To kind of balance it out, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:21 PM "I suppose the good news is, the election will be over soon :-) " Not soon enough!!!! biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:29 PM Palin has executive experience? She calls Obama a socialist? She levied a tax on the oil companies for taking the residents of Alaska's oil, and she gave it to the residents.That's not socialism? Along with that copy of the constitution, she should also pick up a dictionary! Of course, she would have to be able to read something more complex than a tag on a Sachs dress. She is NOT qualified to be VP, and certainly not to be president! She is dragging McBush down but of course, they will blame it on the media for asking hard questions. By the way Ring, the latest poll today said the gap is getting wider. 10 points. You can see the panic in the faces of McCain and Palin. They are losing, and they know it. people are seeing through Caribou Barbie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:32 PM If she is so good at being an executive why did she leave her town in such heavy debt? Did they really need that arena at such a price? and on land that they didn't own? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Charley Noble Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:16 PM Colin Powell, before his endorsement of Obama, had no record of challenging his superiors or pursuing an agenda that was not laid out for him. There was general agreement that he was a fine military officer and administrator, and one who could be trusted to get the job done. It was the neo-cons in the Bush administration that used his credibility to make the case for "war" at the UN, and they did so in my opinion knowing that their weapons of mass destruction data was flimsy at best; Powell certainly regretted being "used" in that fashion and I think that played a major role in why he was willing to take the "radical" (to him) step of endorsing Obama. I'm glad he did have the courage to do that, and I think he can rest easier himself knowing that he has repudiated the administration and its McCain successor. He may also feel as I do that Obama is intrinsically the better candidate. What do you think about that reasoning, Doug? I wouldn't even make the effort to address that question to Rigslinger. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:19 PM Wasn't this thread discussing Gen. Powell's endorsement of Senator Obama? Aren't there enough Palin threads already? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:29 PM $150,000 worth. And I doubt she could read the Saks tags - They had to do that for her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:44 PM Because for years he was a member of "the loyal opposition" and tried to be humorous and reasonable in his disputes. Loyal, perhaps. Never humourous(except in his own mind), less than reasonable and increasingly so with the passage of time. I don't see a great deal of difference between "then" and "now". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:05 PM Ebbie - progesterone. I had to look it up, but isn't that what Sarah Palin represents? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:22 PM Gee, Greg F., are you trying to hurt my feelings? One of the things I always admired about you was your appreciation for my sense of humor! Bill D.:I ain't brainwashed, and I ain't no neo-con, (by the way, is there such a thing as a neo-liberal?). The problem, I believe, is most of you folks think anyone who does not support Obama is a racist. Pretty narrow thinking in my opinion. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:23 PM Nah. Hers is testosterone. Like yours. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:16 PM "The problem, I believe, is most of you folks think anyone who does not support Obama is a racist." ummmm..what to say to that... got it... piffle! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:16 PM No, Doug, you have a perfect record of missing the point. One might think it was on purpose. Either that or you really do, in the grand tradition of GWB supporters on Mudcat, feel a obligation to turn off your brain before sitting down at the computer. As well as not even reading what you yourself say. You made a sarcastic remark about all the wonderful things the Republicans had done for Powell--including making him the first black 4-star general-- ignoring the idea that he had achieved this by his own work and talent. Do you deny this? Your insinuation that all these positions were "given" to Powell by the generous Republicans is racist. Not that we expect you to admit it. After all, you're a gentleman, of course. That, is, a genteel racist. That makes it all better. Or maybe not. Actually it seems Greg has your number. Sometimes I think he's too harsh--but this time it fits perfectly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:40 PM The Republicans did not make Powell the first black four-star general...not by about 15 years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM Interesting. Who was it then, if not Powell? It's always worthwhile to expand the stock of facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:16 AM Daniel "Chappie" James |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM Thanks, Kat. So, Doug got even that allegation wrong. Coming from a Bush/McCain supporter, I suppose that's not surprising. Facts have never meant much to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:19 AM I had said, below, in re: DougR : Loyal, perhaps. Upon reflection, this is wrong. These BuShites, like Douggie, can viciously turn on their own in a nanosecond. A few years ago, Gen. Powell was the hero of the BuShites- a veritable "Great Black Hope" about whom they couldn't say enough good. However, once he's seen to be using his intelligence, thinking critically, and making a reasoned decision based on factual evidence (all of which activities are anathema to the true BuShite & inimical to their political agenda) he becomes an object of derision and an "enemy of America". Were this not so disgusting, it might be amusing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM Saddam Hussein was our fair haired boy until he stopped being our puppet, then we turned on him and made him the devil.Same thing with Noriega. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Charley Noble Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:52 AM Kendall- We even turned the other cheek when Saddam's air force send a missile into one of our missile cruisers, almost sinking her in the Persian Gulf. Those were the days! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:12 AM I have never met DougR, other than through the posts he graces these pages with. I seriously doubt he has ever participated in a cross burning, or a lynching. I would be surprised if I heard that the word n****r had ever crossed his lips. I cannot respond to what type of a person he is, because I don't live near him nor am I witness to his actions. But what can be responded to are the words he posts here. And that is what I did. What he posted was a racist, demeaning comment about a man of his own political party simply because that same man took a position in opposition. DougR, don't you dare try to shift this off and change the premise. No one here forced you to write what you did. Had you given an opinion that was worthy of reason and debate, I would have responded with a reasonable argument. That is not what YOU DID. You are getting criticized, and rightly so, for your own comments. Had you shown the character to have reflected on those comments, apologized for them (or at least acknowledged that they were poorly thought out), and then stated your arguments in a better way, we would simply be debating the comments. And by the way, my response to them was wholly based on your own words, so you can lay off the whiny "I'm being attacked because I disagree with the liberal elite here" crap. That is simply an attempt to gain sympathy. You get none, sir. Your comments were reprehensible. Your comments are the kind that have allowed this type of racist rhetoric, and subconscious code words that appeal to the fears of people, to flourish. It is because decent people refuse to react with disgust that this goes on. But I will no longer allow these things to go unchallenged. You say it, you will be held accountable. It is that simple. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM "Saddam Hussein was our fair haired boy until he stopped being our puppet,..." The question that needs to be answered now is, who's puppet is Barack Hussein? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:07 AM As an African American and, more importantly as a human being, let me say that I consider it important that Mick's statements and other such statements be publicly made. The times, they are changing. More & more people are realizing that a person's racial and ethnic identity should be nothing more than a valueless descriptor. But those times when race & ethnicity are valueless descriptors won't come without working to eradicate institutional racism. And those times won't come unless-without malice-examples of intended racism and examples of unintended racism are addressed. I don't think that means that we should be play "gotcha" games when someone unknowingly makes a prejudiced remark, or when someone is unintentially racist in his or her actions. But if no one speaks up to let a person know that his or her remarks and/or actions are prejudiced, than a teaching moment for that individual and others would be missed. Of course, it's not just what is said, but how and when it is said. Although I've tried, there have been times on this forum when I've forgotten that. So-yes-I'm talking to myself as well as to others. Letting go of old racial paradigms benefits us all. For our children and our children's sake, let's move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:10 AM Rig: You are growing a layer of slime that gets deeper and deeper as the election grows closer. Do you have any evidence at all that Mister Obama (to you) is anyone's puppet? Or are you just reeling in a fevered paranoid realm of delusion again? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:37 AM No! All I have is suspicion. We'll have to wait and see who the winners and losers turn out to be after he's elected. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: katlaughing Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:37 AM Azizi is right. Times are changing. There is a whole generation of young people out there who are helping tremendously with bringing about that change. The colour of a person's skin, their gender, ethnicity, religion/or not, etc. are not that by which they choose to judge a person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: PoppaGator Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:46 AM Most of the racism that exists nowadays is pretty much unconscious ~ which is why it's so insidious and difficult to overcome, even within one's own consciousness. If this country did not have a long history of racial division, starting with, and rooted in, the institution of slavery, it would not be possible for demagogues to win elections by persuading people to vote against their own economic interests by selling them on the idea that any regulation or taxation of the richest of the rich can only lead to "unfair" favoritism toward some very vaguely defined "others" ~ people who are not "real Americans" like "you and me." White men in this country are angry and frustrated because the average income they're able to earn does not nearly support the fairly modest middle-class lifestyle that they expect. (Hell, even nuclear families with two adult full-time earners can barely make ends meet; it really takes about two-and-a-half or three full-time incomes to live comfortably these days.) And where is this anger directed? Against the astronomically paid bigwigs who are exploiting them? No! For an entire generation (that's a third of a century, since around 1980), white-guy anger has been fixated on the false accusation that all their economic woes can be blamed on the poor people hogging all the money! Can you imagine such a scenario taking place in a homogenous society like, say, Japan, where there is not "other," no "minority," available as a convenient scapegoat? No way! Explicit racial talk is no longer necessary. The powerful economic elite ~ the real elite, not the educated class or the progressive thinkers ~ who brought you Nixon's "Southern Strategy" so many years ago are the same guys who sold Bush to the citizenry and are trying to cement their hold with a McCain/Palin administration. They don't have to utter the "n-word" any more, and in fact have begun to change their picture of the scapegoat population by explicitly mentioning Latinos and gay people while keeping their mouths mostly shut about the black folk. But their strategy would never have gotten off the ground without the deep-seated impact of slavery and racism that has always been the dark side of our otherwise-cheerful-and-equitable national psyche. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:02 PM I agree with the above posts about racism. I would just add that the use of racism in this country by moneyed elites really started with the Europeans' treatment of the native people's of the Western Hemisphere. They actually did try to use them as slaves (before they got the idea to bring people from Africa for that purpose), but it was too easy for the Native Americans to escape and never be seen again. They chose African peoples precisely because they had no history on this continent and would be easier to prevent from escaping and hiding, and because they couldn't blend in with the rest of the people of European origin, as escaped indentured servants of European origin could, because of the color of their skin. All of which shows us just how arbitrary are the distinctions that are made by those who subscribe to racist ideas about people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM Perhaps so, but two of the principle reasons for the "need" to import African workers were (1) the "great die-off" of the native peoples caused by importation of European diseases into a totally un-immune population (generally estimated at 75-90%) and (2) the fact that Northern Europeans, indentured or not, could not do field labor in the heat and humidity of the middle Americas (roughly, Maryland to Brazil), and all exportable crops (rice, sugar, cotton) only grew in that region. Why people that are generally hardier and more physically fit than their "owners" would be considered inferior is an interesting point of human psychology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM "...the fact that Northern Europeans, indentured or not, could not do field labor in the heat and humidity of the middle Americas..." Now there's a racist statement! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM That's correct, Art. Also, the Native American populations (specially in the Caribbean) tended to simply die off in droves when they were enslaved...due to some kind of cultural or psychological aspects that were unique to them (they seem to have instinctively preferred death to incarceration), whereas the Black Africans mostly survived the miserable conditions of slavery and were hard workers under those conditions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:40 PM All of which goes to show that racism is all about economics, and not genetics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM Well, Carol, I think we've found something to agree on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:51 PM For sure... Racism always has been about economics. To be poor and to be weak militarily is to be despised and taken advantage of when it comes to the exercise of political power in this world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM Art: I apologize for my error in naming Colin Powell as the first African-American four star general. I should have researched it and relied only on my memory. Mick: I just re-read my post of October 20, the one that got you so riled up tossing the term racist around my neck. Perhaps people have different definitions of "racist." I read nothing in that post that I would interpret as racist, and I stand my my post. As L.H. wrote in a recent post, I believe had a leading Democrat endorsed John McCain in the current campaign you folks would be just as judgmental of his motivations as I was of Powell's, and suspect that your remarks would have been similar (of course unless the leading Democrat was a African-American the "R" word would not have applied) but I'm confident that you would not have been pleased. Admittedly, I could be wrong, but I do believe that Powell will be rewarded with an important position in Obama's administration should he defeat McCain (which is still not a certainty). Other than the fact that I am not a racist, and prior to now, have never been called one, that's all I have to say on the subject. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM I would very much appreciate it if people would stop labelling other people as racists within the membership of this forum. It leads nowhere good to do that. As I said to someone awhile back, it amounts to verbally punching someone in the nose, and there is no way they can ever prove they are NOT racist, once accused of it...just as there was no way that anyone in Salem could ever prove they were NOT a witch, once accused of it. The accusation is the damnation. The same goes for calling people anti-Semitic in the present political milieu. Those terms, "racist" and "anti-semite" have both become a way of intimidating and silencing others and, in effect, excommunicating them from the fellowship of their peers. I think Doug's views of Colin Powell's character and motivations are entirely incorrect, but I will not call him "racist" on account of expressing those views. I will simply say that I think he is very much in error. Doug, I expect that Obama may give Powell a significant place in the new administration if Obama wins the election. I would if I was Obama. Colin Powell is a very capable man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:41 PM L.H.: I would too. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:37 PM Imo, indicating that you perceive a statement or action to be racist is not the same as "labeling a person racist". As to what good it would do to point out such statements, I stand by what I wrote in my 23 Oct 08 - 11:07 AM post to this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: dick greenhaus Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM Among those who have deserted the GOP ranks are a bunch with familiar surnames: Buckley Eisenhower Goldwater Reagan Buckley |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: TIA Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:00 PM "I believe had a leading Democrat endorsed John McCain in the current campaign you folks would be just as judgmental of his motivations as I was of Powell's" E.G. Joe Lieberman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:30 PM Doug-- You stand by your post. That is, the one which sarcastically named the positions supposedly given to Powell, with no hint of any knowledge on your part that Powell had earned any of them. That is a racist statement-- no surprise you refuse to acknowledge it. Your kind never does. As I said, you are a "gentleman" and a racist. A genteel racist. QED And we don't actually need racists--of any kind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:31 PM Of course you can't see the racism in the post, Doug. That is exactly the point. And a correction to your comments. I said, several times, that your comments are racist. I think I made it clear in the last post that I don't know if you are a racist or not, but your post is clearly a racist one. You see, that is the problem with folks. They just can't believe, in the face of several hundred years of evidence to the contrary, that their actions and words are racist. It takes a desire to acknowledge that it exists, and then a desire to see how it manifests itself. It appears to me, sir, that you desire neither to acknowledge it, or to see it in your words, even though any number of folks here have pointed out that it sure appeared that way to them. It might not have been your intent, but the effect was the same. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:52 AM dick:The only response I can think of to your post listing the Republicans that have repudiated the party is: horsepucky! I would like to think that you spent a few too many hours at the local pub before your posted that message. Four of the five names mentioned have gone on to their great reward, and unless you have a super duper form of communication with those in the great beyond, you are full of you know what. Mick: It's a bit late tonight as I write this and I won't respond to your last post, or the post on October 20th, of which you are so proud. This promise I make to you, though, I will post a reply to your October 20th reply tomorrow. I would suggest, however, that you re-read that post to be sure you really meant what you said in response to my post of the same date. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Jeri Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM I don't think Doug's comments were racist. Having seen his posts over the years, I think that party loyalty means more to him than reason. You don't have to think about each pesky thing that comes up if you just go along with the party position and just repeat the party line. As for the role of Republicans in Gen Powell's career, he was appointed CJCoS when Bill Clinton was president. His career seems to have involved with working with both Democrats AND Republicans, and the military is NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY PARTY. And Doug... not everybody with the surnames Dick listed is dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: freda underhill Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM i have a friend who worked in Ireland as part of the peace process between Protestants and Catholics. he was part of of process where they got groups of people in the same neighbourhood together - to listen to each other. there was a huge amount of listening (not blaming, arguing, disagreeing) and it was the way forward. how anyone can move forward after 800 years of oppression and violence i don't know, but they're doing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM Jeri, Gen. Powell was appointed Chairman of the JCS in October 1989, by Bush I. He remained in that position until September 1993, well after Clinton's election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM ...whereas the Black Africans mostly survived the miserable conditions of slavery and were hard workers under those conditions. This is also untrue- and verges on a racist/social Darwinian perspective. Fact is, they died like flies under those "miserable conditions". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:47 AM Doug R said: dick:The only response I can think of to your post listing the Republicans that have repudiated the party is: horsepucky! I would like to think that you spent a few too many hours at the local pub before your posted that message. Four of the five names mentioned have gone on to their great reward, and unless you have a super duper form of communication with those in the great beyond, you are full of you know what. Okay, let's look at the list: Bill Buckley, deceased, left the Republican party to co-found the Conservative Party in New York. His lifelong identification was more with conservative positions than with the Republican party as such. Eisenhower? I certainly don't remember his having left the Republican Party. He was, as I recall, essentially apolitical until he decided, after some wavering, to run as a Republican Goldwater? I don't remember his leaving the Republican Party. He DID endorse Bill Buckley for mayor of NYC under the Conservative banner. I don't know that he gave up being a Republican. Ronald Reagan? He was originally a Democrat, and eventually ended up a Republican. Christopher Buckley (Bill Buckley's son) recently endorsed Obama. I don't know what he considers himself now. So three of them might be said (however vaguely or temporarily) to have deserted the Republican party. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:54 AM Bill Buckley's son, and Dwight Eisenhower and Barry Goldwater's grand daughters, all of whom are Republicans (or perhaps were) have endorsed Obama. Ron Reagan was probably never a Republican. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:09 AM CarolC said (for some reason, I guess): Ron Reagan was probably never a Republican Then why did they nominate and elect him as President? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Alice Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM Dave, Ron Reagan the son, not Ronald Reagan the president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM What about Scott McLallen? Just another turn coat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM Not Ronald Reagan. Ron Reagan, Ronald Reagan's son. Believe it or not, people do sometimes pass their names down to subsequent generations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM Thinking it over there's another interpretation for that post which isn not racist, but merely involves recognising the existence of racism. In a racist society, it can be argued, there is a certain political cost and a certain risk in appointing the best candidate to a job, if that is likely to upset racist voters etc. The appointment of Colin Powell therefore would have involved accepting that cost, and facing that risk. This means that the fact that he is African American is relevant. Of course even if this interpretation is accepted, there is still the assumption that public servants ought to owe loyalties to those who appoint them which should outweigh their loyalties to the public at large, and that, I would suggest, is totally unacceptable. Personal loyalties should never be given priority over loyalties to the public. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM Several of the TV programs Doug R probably does not watch have been noting that the decendents of those famous Republicans have opted to vote for Obama... we'll have to excuse him for not realizing the point. I doubt that Bill O'Reilly mentioned the situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM I've come to like Keith Olberman and Rachael Maddow. They tell it like I see it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM You need to get your glasses checked! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM ANd you, your very soul. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:25 PM The world for people who get their information from FOX NEWS must resemble the world as it was understood before the time of Columbus. A small island of known territory surrounded by a vast sea filled with monsters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM I believe that there was some mention on this thread of a McCain volunteer in Pittsburgh, PA who filed a police report that she was robbed by a Black man who carved a letter "B" on her face (that letter supposedly standing for "Barack"}. I'm posting the information for the record, that the woman has recanted her statement. For some reason, she made it all up. See this online report from Pittsburgh's tv station http://kdka.com/ : Police: Campaign Volunteer Lied, Injured Self "Police say a campaign volunteer confessed to making up a story that a mugger attacked her and cut the letter B in her face after seeing her McCain bumper sticker. At a news conference this afternoon, offiicals said they believe the woman's injuries were self-inflicted. Ashley Todd, 20, is now facing charges for filing a false report to police." -snip- Those interested in this story may want to read this dailykos diary: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/24/131858/60/749/640996 The "mutilated" victim admits making it up! (Updated) by cartwrightdale Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 10:20:11 AM PDT Here's one quote included in that diary from Michelle Malkin of Fox News before that McCain volunteer recanted her story: "This incident could become a watershed event in the 11 days before the election. If Ms. Todd's allegations are proven accurate, some voters may revisit their support for Senator Obama, not because they are racists (with due respect to Rep. John Murtha), but because they suddenly feel they do not know enough about the Democratic nominee. If the incident turns out to be a hoax, Senator McCain's quest for the presidency is over, forever linked to race-baiting". -snip- See this report from another Pittsburgh television station about Representative John Murtha's recent comment {and then his rescinding that comment} that, in his opinion, a lot of White people in Western Pennsylvania are racist. As an aside, the woman who made up that horrible story said that it happened in a majority White working class neighborhood that is less than 5 minutes by car from my majority Black working class neighborhood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:49 PM And people who receive their information from MSNBC are like Rip Van Winkle. They've been lulled into a 20 year sleep and when they finally wake up they can't figure out what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:57 PM I "misspoke". Rep. Murtha {Democrat} didn't completely rescind his statement. Initially, "Murtha, the 17-term Democratic congressman, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in a story posted Wednesday on post-gazette.com: "There is no question that western Pennsylvania is a racist area" But after receiving complaints from some of his constitutients and other Western Pennsylvania, "On Thursday morning, Murtha's office released a statement saying, "I apologize for making the comment that 'Western Pennsylvania is a racist area.' While we cannot deny that race is a factor in this election, I believe we've been able to look beyond race these past few months, and that voters today are concerned with the policy differences of our two candidates and their vision for the future of our great country." http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/politics/17726961/detail.html Fwiw, Murtha backed Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM GregF: does that quote come from someplace on this thread? I couldn't find it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: heric Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM You can detect racist comments where no malice was intended with great frequency. To simplify my life I never use the term racist, but will express disdain for bigotry, where malice is intended. Undoubtedly you could scour mudcat threads and find a books' worth of racist comments spoken in favor of certain minorities or exploited groups. Which reminds me of a little story of no real relevance. My daughter and I were sitting in a waiting room at school. There was an elegant and well dressed Latin woman, with an accent, and a bleached blonde neighbor of ours. The Latin lady said: "What is big-OH-tree?" Pardon, we asked. She pointed to a poster on the wall, with a blurb about bigotry. The blonde said "Um. Well. You know, like, um, Hispanics." My daughter thought that wasn't the best answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:33 PM List of prominent Republicans supporting Senator Obama: Obamacans: Prominent Republicans Line-Up Behind Obama WASHINGTON WIRE Political Insight and Analysis From The Wall Street Journal's Capital Bureau -Susan Davis "Since Colin Powell crossed party lines to endorse Barack Obama last Sunday, a steady stream of prominent Republicans have endorsed the Illinois senator over rival John McCain. "Former Massachusetts Gov. William Weld is endorsing Obama today at a press conference in Salem, N.H. Weld was a public supporter of Mitt Romney in the Republican primaries. In a statement, Weld called Obama a "once-in-a-lifetime candidate who will transform our politics and restore America's standing in the world." On Thursday, former Minnesota Gov. Arne Carlson endorsed Obama at the state capitol. "I think we have in Barack Obama the clear possibility of a truly great president," he said. "I would contend that it's the most important election of my lifetime." Scott McClellan, a former spokesman for President George W. Bush, also endorsed Obama Thursday. USA Today reported that McClellan told CNN in a taping to be aired this weekend that Obama has "the best chance of changing the way Washington works." Ken Adelman, a prominent conservative on foreign policy matters announced his support for Obama on Tuesday, telling the New Yorker that his decision was based on temperament and judgment. Adelman called McCain "impetuous, inconsistent, and imprudent; ending up just plain weird" in his handling of the U.S. economic crisis. He also was unsettled by McCain's choice of running mate. "Not only is Sarah Palin not close to being acceptable in high office—I would not have hired her for even a mid-level post in the arms-control agency," Adelman wrote". Add Charles Fried, a Harvard Law professor and former Solicitor General in the Reagan administration, to the list of Republicans supporting Obama. Fried's vote for the Democratic ticket is particularly harsh, as he was associated with the McCain campaign. Fried voted absentee for Obama this week, and informed McCain campaign general counsel Trevor Potter of his decision in a letter where he stated he could not support McCain in large part because of his selection of Palin as his running mate." http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/24/obamacans-prominent-republicans-line-up-behind-obama/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM Mick: My reply to your post attacking me as a racist: Paragraph #1. These are irrefutable facts, not opinion. Paragraph #2. This is opinion, or prediction if you please. I assume, since we reside in the country that you obviously love so well, that citizens are still allowed to have opinions even though they may not agree with your own. The balance of your post had nothing to do with my post. I never questioned your patriotism, didn't try to convert you to my religion, and as a U. S. Army veteran myself, I have the greatest respect for anyone who wore our country's uniform. I don't know where you were going with that verbiage but it darned sure had nothing to do with my post. I do have one question for you, however. Who appointed you arbiter of what is and what is not a racist statement? Joe? Max? God? Check out Carol C's post of 20 Oct.-10:41PM: "I lost all respect for Colin Powel because of that speech before the United Nations. As far as I was concerned he had sold his soul." In the next paragraph she states that he has almost redeemed himself by doing something of which she approves. Is Carol C. a racist? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM IF you had not, in your post, anchored so many of your observations to the fact of Powell being an African American, Doug, the racist overtone (unintended or not) would never have been inferred. You should take responsibility for that unnecessary emphasis. You made a direct implication that his accomplishments were related to his race, rather than based on his merit. I KNOW you did not mean to imply it was special treatment, or undeserved, but why, then, keep repeating the fact of his race if you did not mean to emphasize it? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:59 PM Because, Amos, it was important to point out that Powell WAS the first African American to occupy those positions. Do you think for one minute he is NOT proud of that? If it's not important, why is your candidate so eager to point out that if elected HE will be the first African American President of the United States. Obama has not attempted to keep it a secret has he? Jeeze! What's with you guys? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:59 PM Good thing I don't get all of my information from MSNBC. On the subject of that young woman who lied about being attacked by an Obama supporter - what that woman tried to do is one of the most reprehensible (and racist) things a person can do. She was willing to start a race war just to get her candidate elected or for her fifteen minutes of fame. And the really sad part is that what she did is entirely in keeping with the ethic of the McCain campaign. The whole campaign would rather start a race war than see their candidate lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Greg F. Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM ART: RE: Quote- see Little Hawk Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:32 PM Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM "Good thing I don't get all of my information from MSNBC." Yes, it is! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM "...why is your candidate so eager to point out that if elected HE will be the first African American President of the United States.?" Funny...I have not heard him discuss it in that way. **EAGER**??? That's silly! The only point I have heard Obama make about the situation is that it is heartening to know that the USA has progressed far enough that it was even POSSIBLE for him to get this nomination! 50 years ago, he'd never have had a chance. Now he does....It is good for America whether he wins or loses. and by the way...let's keep it accurate, he would not be "the first African American President"...he would be the first president with some African American heritage. Some folks ...on both sides... tend to dismiss the fact that the other side of his family were from Kansas, and that he actually has some Irish heritage. He is a nice guy who lived an interesting life and followed a path that put him in position to compete for this position.....and whose father was from Kenya. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: heric Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM Individuals do millions of reprehensible things each day. To blame that one on McCain is escalation, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM I didn't blame that one on McCain, and to suggest that I did is twisting my words. I am saying that the McCain campaign are willing to start a race war in order to get their candidate elected. And we can see the results of that every day. Both in terms of the hate filled rhetoric coming out of their spokespersons, as well as the violent hate speech coming from their supporters. What this young woman did is an example of the climate of hate that McCain and his campaign are nurturing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM The name of the game is to win the election. Just imagine what would happen if Obama actually got elected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: heric Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM That's a nuanced view. I'll study it. He nurtured the climate of hate that caused / was a catalyst to her doing it, but he's not to blame for her having done it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM heric, while McCain's national campaign cannot be blamed for the Pittsburgh hoax, his Pennsylvania campaign's communication director pushed this story: "John Verrilli, the news director for KDKA in Pittsburgh, told TPM Election Central that McCain's Pennsylvania campaign communications director gave one of his reporters a detailed version of the attack that included a claim that the alleged attacker said, "You're with the McCain campaign? I'm going to teach you a lesson." Verrilli also told TPM that the McCain spokesperson had claimed that the "B" stood for Barack." http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/mccain-spokesma.html Also... "The McCain spokesperson's claims -- which came in the midst of extraordinary and heated conversations late yesterday between the McCain campaign, local TV stations, and the Obama camp, as the early version of the story rocketed around the political world -- is significant because it reveals a McCain official pushing a version of the story that was far more explosive than the available or confirmed facts permitted at the time". http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/mccain_aide_gave_reporters_inc.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:21 PM He (and the Republican Party) are nurturing a climate of hate. That's what they can be blamed for. They are responsible for the hateful tone of their campaign. I, personally, wouldn't say that they can be blamed for all of the acts committed by individuals as a result of this climate of hate, but I would say that they are complicit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: heric Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:38 PM Oh. I didn't know the campaign had even commented on it. Yes, that sounds very bad. Well thank our lucky stars these clowns are not going to run the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:33 PM A few of my news sources: MSNBC, CNN, BBC, Air America and, on occasion Fox. I'll match my political savvy with anyone here. Fire away, but be sure your shields are up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:35 PM Just to drift the thread a bit further, Senator Obama is more "African" by ethnic heritage, at least in the sense that he can point to a specific bit of his ancestry, than golfer Tiger Woods (half Thai) or singer Sammy Davis, Jr. (half Puerto Rican) and much more so than Mr. Davis' children with his wife, Swedish actress May Britt. According to Wiki, General Powell's ancestry includes Scots and Irish, among others. Yet, according to US usage, all of them are considered African-American/Black...as is anyone else who has an ancestor "of color", no matter how far back. Yet, DNA studies and anthropological findings indicate that every single one of us is descended from the same woman, who probably lived in Africa a while back. Makes it kinda dumb for anyone to play a "race card", huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: jacqui.c Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:45 PM Too true Art, but it doesn't seem to be seen that way by too many people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: freda underhill Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:34 PM Art, as usual, you have made measured and informative comments. It is always great to read your balanced opinions on things. (like so many of these great catters :-) ) freda |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:35 PM It's not surprising that the story about the mugging/mutilation hoax is getting a lot of coverage in Pittsburgh. Pittsburghers have been known to talk down our city, But we don't like it when non-Pittsburghers talk bad about us. The racial situation is fragile enough in Pittsburgh-and in other parts of the USA-without folks trying to stoke those fires. By far the largest population of color in Pittsburgh are African Americans. Unlike the more than 3 times larger city of Philadelphia {some 6 1/2 hours away from Pittsburgh}, and unlike the smaller capital city of Harrisburg {about 4 hours away from Pittsburgh}, there are very few Latinos in Pittsburgh. African Americans are only about 24% of the population of the city of Pittsburgh and about 12% of the county. And a lot of African Americans in Pittsburgh are strugglin. But a lot of White people in Pittsburgh are strugglin too. And, while there are some racial tensions, for the most part we are trying to get along with each other and survive these bad times the best we can. Pittsburghers don't mind making the news for good things-our beautiful scenary, our sports teams, our commitments to the arts and pioneering health interventions like kidney transplant surgery. We knew that Pittsburgh was an important city for either John McCain or Barack Obama to win. We knew that both of these candidates would come to court our votes. But who would have thought that Pittsburgh would make the news in this way? Here's the bottom line-Ashley Todd lied. She said that she was mugged and had a letter carved on her face because of her support for John McCain. She lied. She described her attacker as a 6'4" Black man. She lied. During her later talks with the police, Ashley Todd said that she had been sexually assaulted by the Black man who had robbed her and carved an upside down "B" on her cheek. She lied. None of Ashley Todd's story was true. Thankfully, in one day Ashley Todd admitted that she was lying. And thankfully, no one was directly harmed by her lies except for her {and, potentially, the McCain-Palin campaign}. But in the not at all distant past, Black people have been killed because of such stories. Ashley Todd lied because she thought that inciting racial fears and anger would benefit the McCain campaign. The McCain campaign are on record as pushing this story. Now they're probably sorry that they did. Am I the only one that sees the karmic elements of this story? You have John McCain indicating that he has to win Pennsylvania. And Western Pennsylvania is absolutely crucial to that win. Then you have a Democratic representative from Western Pennsylvania making a statement on the record that Western Pennsylvania has got a lot of racist people {echoing a similar statement about the entire state that Ed Rendell, the governor of Pennsylvania, had made during the Democratic primary}. Then you have the McCain campaign including John McCain oozing distain for Barack Obama with McCain's "That One" statement and Sarah Palin's rallies stroking the fires of racial and religious division and condoning supporters' out and out racism. And then you have Ashley Todd...from Texas of all places-the adopted home of almost invisible President George Bush. Enter Ashley Todd, a young Republican who had only been in Pittsburgh for something like two weeks working the telephones for John McCain and at some point hatching this foolish and dangerous scheme that she might have thought would help John McCain win Pennsylvania. Maybe Ashley Todd is just mentally ill, and wanted her 15 minutes of fame or more than 15 minutes like Joe the Plumber is receiving on the Fox News television, and the right wing radio talk show circuit. But if she is just sick, why did she attempt to stroke the racial and political fires by alleging that her attacker was a Black Obama supporter? Did John McCain and Sarah Palin have a chance of winning Western Pennsylvania before this hoax? Yes. The campaign probably wouldn't have won the city of Pittsburgh. But it might have been possible for the Republicans to win in the Western Pennsylvania counties. However, in my opinion, the McCain-Palin campaign's chances of winning have significantly decreased because of Ashley Todd's disgusting and dangerous hoax. Ashley Todd FAIL=McCain-Palin FAIL ** Here's a link to a CNN report of this hoax: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IszjevYoS6A&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/24/172956/99/476/641269 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:47 PM The problem with that argument, friend Art, is that it ignores the sociological problems in our society that have evolved with racism for centuries. While I applaud the sentiment, the old saying, "If you have one drop, you are....." is exactly indicative of the problem. The real reason I react so strongly is that I believe that we are at a moment where we can make a huge leap forward in this area. But I believe that for that to happen, people of conscience must be completely intolerant of any type of code words, arguments, or attempts to mitigate the evil this shameful disease of society. I ask the white folks in this place, ... how many times have you allowed someone to get away with racially charged language (use of the n word, etc.) in your presence because no African descended folks were around? Actually this is timely, based on a phone call I just got from my 16 year old. We live in a rural community with few folks of color. Ciara has been raised with the same types of values as her Da believes in. She just called me because she is taking a lot of heat for supporting "a nigger". I have always taught her that to live a life of integrity and honesty means having to take heat for one's principles and that at times it would hurt. This is one of those times for my little girl. The Dad in me wants to rush out and protect her, but this kid is willing to go toe to toe for what she believes in, and in the end result will be better for it. Ciara recognizes the ignorance of these young folks, but she still has to pay a price socially for her views, but that is a burden she is willing to bear in pursuit of what she believes. She is quite a remarkable, and resilient, kid. And she has integrity. I am a lucky man. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:48 PM Azizi said, Ashley Todd lied because she thought that inciting racial fears and anger would benefit the McCain campaign. Perhaps. Or perhaps in part. I'm tempted to suspect that the real story of the cutting is something she didn't want to get out for other reasons, and she seized on the political possibilities as an afterthought, as a way of covering up the "real story". Still just as discreditable, of course, but to me more believable. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:36 PM The whole thing is pretty stupid, it seems to me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:08 PM "Jeez, what's with you guys?" Pobre cito. If good ol' Doug is not in fact a racist, he certainly does a very believable impression of one. He would be advised, on a left-of-center site like Mudcat, to refrain from sarcastic comments on all the Republicans have done for a black man--especially if he shows no sign of realizing that black man's own talent and work was the actual reason for his advancement. Such a sarcastic statement might well give some posters the idea that Doug is in fact a racist--and we've established that he does not want this impression left. Perhaps on the Limbaugh-Hannity-oriented sites Doug may frequent, such an approach may be fine. Not fine here--and the sooner he learns this , the better. At the risk of blazing a trail his hero GWB never frequents, he could even take my earlier suggestion and actually think before opening his mouth. And if he does make a mistake anyway, he'd be best off not to "stick by my post". If your unseaworthy ship is going down, you may possibly not want to lash yourself to the mast--though this does seem to be a habit of Teribus and other GWB defenders. Just a bit of friendly advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Donuel Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:25 PM Ron, I too risk making posts on days when I probably should not, such as when I have a migraine. What seperates me from people who give a believable impression of something despicable, is that after the headache I get better. Certainly I have changed over 9 years while people who seem totally misinformed, mindless and bereft of any meaningful intelligence keep rolling on the same track as if by some perpetual motion of biologic inertia. PS I am on occaison misinformed but make an effort to admit it. After being hit by lightning I even felt mindless but felt better a year later. As for meaningful intelligence others will always be the judge of that. or as grandpa Schatz used to succinctly say, "Ya can't fix stupid!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:06 AM Friend Mick, I truly think that the world has come a long way in the last couple of generations. For the most part, our fathers thought nothing at all of racial differences - that is, it was entirely normal for most of them. Our generation, the children of the 60s and 70s, has realized that these things are just plain wrong and we have done what we can, in our own ways, to eliminate them. Our children, your daughter and mine, don't see these things - like color - as being really major differences between people. Daughter Karen lives in Pittsburgh and, from what she says, her generation sees a very different city than does Mr. Murtha, Friend Azizi and my wife (who is a native Pittsburgher). It is unfortunate that Ciara has people at her school who are socially retarded like that, and I agree that you are lucky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM artbrooks, just for the record, I want to clarify that I don't think that a person's skin color should be a factor- major or minor-between people. However, I live in a world where a person's skin color can and sometimes does cause different attitudes {accepting and rejecting} and different treatments {or an omission of treatment i.e. services}. I am talking about the reality that I have experienced and still experience of both personal racism and institutional racism. Because of my perceptions and experiences of an African American female who has lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania for 40 years, I agree with Representative Murtha {and your wife?} that there is a great deal of White racism in Western Pennsylvania. And I also will state for the record, that a significant number of African Americans in Western Pennsylvania have varying reactions to White people including distain, and anger because of the real mistreatment or potential for maltreatment by White people in authority {including some police} and the fact that for the most part, Black people are excluded from most good jobs in the area-including union jobs such as liscensed electrician, construction, and plumbing union jobs. Also, because of segregated neighborhoods and segregated schools within Pittsburgh, and because of the small number of Black people in many Western Pennsylvania towns, White people and Black people have little opportunities to really get to know each other. And it's been my experience that most Black people don't attend social or public events or venues where there will be few if any other Black people. This may be partly because of the cost of such venues. But also I think that this is because a lot of Black people {but not me any more} are [still] insecure around a majority of White people -especially when they are or may be "the only one" {meaning the only person of color in attendance}. By feeling "insecure", I mean feeling unsure about how they will be accepted by White people. Because of this, I believe that many Black people are much too insular, living in their "world" and having their own interests and social activities, and not wanting to venture out of their comfort zone to experience "other worlds" and other interests. And yes, there are some Black people who are prejudiced against {racist toward} White people. But I don't think that is the majority of Black people. And I think that the majority of White people are as I as insecure about {around} Black people as Black people are around White people, although because there are usually so many more White people in this area than Black people {depending on where you go} that except at certain times and places, White people rarely have occasion to socially interact with Black people. In some public social settings. I get the sense that some White people are out to proof that they aren't prejudiced-and the interaction isn't as natural as it would be if they didn't have a concern that they might accidentally say something or do something that might offend a Black person. In the opposite situation, when there are just a few Black people around a majority of White people {outside of interactions with persons in power such as judges, police, social workers, and doctors}, I don't get the sense that we are worried about offending White people. Because of the way the USA is, I definitely think that Black people know more about White people than White people know about Black people. That said, I have found that there are often real differences in colloquial expressions, children's rhymes, ways of singing the same religions songs, dancing, jokes, etc etc etc. between many White people and many Black people... All of this to say, art, and with all due respect for you and for what I believe you were trying to say, I'm still concerned about race because I believe that White racism has negatively impacted me and my family and has the potential to negatively impact me and my family in the future mor than Black racism has impacted you and your family and more than Black racism has the potential to impact you and your family in the future. I don't believe in being color blind. I believe that people should hope for and work for a time when race and ethnicity have no plus or minus valuations, but are just descriptors. But until institutional racism is eradicated in the judicial system, welfare system-including child welfare, educational system, health care system, corporations including finacial lending systems, and mass media to name some institutions,there will be people who are socialized to hate people who are different from them. There was a time {in the mid to late 1960s} that I was desperately seeking good White people because I wanted to believe that all White people weren't like the segregationists in the South who attacked demonstrators with dogs and water from fire hoses-to name some present day examples that accosted my spirit and then there were the assault on my spirit by the accounts of slavery that I read in history books, not to mention my hurtful personal experiences with White racism as a youth and as a teenager and as a young adult... But during the mid to late 1960s {as a result of being only one of 6 Black students who lived on campus at a New Jersey college}, I got to know a few good White people relatively well. And since that time I have got to know many more good White people, including members of this forum. And thankfully, I don't need to meet White people for the same reasons that I needed to meet them in the 1960s. I know that all White people aren't like those segregationists down South {and elsewhere} who didn't think that people of color were as human as they weree, and who were socialized to look down upon and to fear Black people. I realize that I was socialized to feel inferior because of my skin color. To the best of my ability, I have worked on those feelings of inferiority and I don't believe that I feel inferior at all to White people any more. And that is a blessing that I partly owe to some White people who are my friends and are closer to me than some of my biological family. I want to add this disclaimer that I am not saying that all or even most African American {Pittsburghers or residents of other cities, and towns, and rural areas} have the same or similar takes on race and racism that I do. But I do think that many African Americans may "hear" and agree with a great deal of what I am saying. And I've said more than I expected to say. And, I'm going to leave it right there. I'm not going to re-read this because if I do, I'll probably delete it. And I don't think I want to delete this post-though when I do re-read this, I might think differently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:45 AM One reason to hope that Americans will vote for Obama, aside from the fact that he looks as if he will make a pretty good president, is that after he has been there a bit, a certain kind of racism will become increasingly recognised not just as evil but as totally absurd, which is probably a more effective way of eliminating it. It won't vanish overnight, its roots are too deep - but I would predict that for an increasing number of people the idea that black people are inferior will be seen as akin to thinking the earth is flat. Which of course is the truth, and is already how a lot of people see it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM Mick, I have a problem with my oldest daughter. I'm sure she will vote for McCain/Palin not because Obama is black, but because he is a democrat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM Azizi, the point that I was trying to make - and I have a very bad habit of trying to say things in brief sound bites - is that each generation moves a bit closer to my ideal of a color-blind nation. And, just to clarify, I don't mean that people shouldn't be aware of their histories and heritages, but that this should not/will not really matter in terms of their personal interactions, job prospects, where they live and go to school, and so forth. The experiences that you and I have had, each in our own ways, are different from those our children are having, and different yet from what my grandchild-to-be will encounter. Things are better - I can remember separate-but-equal drinking fountains - but they certainly haven't gotten to where I think they should be. Places like Pittsburgh may well be (ok, they are) further behind in this transition than others (in the deep south, for example) and, since I am a westerner, I won't/can't make a judgment as to why that is. Jenn, who moved into the city from Harmarville when she was 11, has nothing much positive to say about the attitudes toward minorities there when she was growing up - especially among blue collar "ethnics" - and I don't know that her generation there has changed much. Hopefully, the next generation has moved on, at least a little. Where we live now, in Albuquerque, the under-30 generation seems to socialize freely across groups. Of course, we are about 40% Hispanic, 45% "white" non-Hispanic and 15% "all other", so situations differ. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM Kendall: don't look on it as a problem. Just be proud that you have a free thinking daughter who shows very good judgment! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 25 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM She has opposed me all her life and one way or another she must prove me wrong about something. I did teach all my girls to think for themselves. They are like Russian toilet paper, they take no shit off nobody! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:06 PM Kendall, here is your solution. Join the Republican Party and tell your eldest daughter you are going to vote for McCain! She'll switch around right away. ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM LOL!! There may be something to that reverse=psychology advice, there, Kendall!! :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM ...I think he lost his voice again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:41 PM Jules Feiffer once did a strip about that. This middle aged man telling how all his life he'd made out to his son that he had these rightwing views about everything, so as to ensure that the lad grew up reacting against him, and adopting right-on views instead. So they were always arguing about everything. And then when his son was old enough he told him that he had convinced him, and at last he was able to come out as the liberal he had always secretly been. And the last frame had him sadly saying that now they agreed, they never seemed to have anything to talk about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Desert Dancer Date: 26 Oct 08 - 12:26 AM Azizi, thank you for not deleting that. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 26 Oct 08 - 03:05 AM Thanks from me, too, Azizi. That is a beautiful manifesto. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM Thanks, Becky and Ebbie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:35 AM Back on April 17, Bobert posted this: "Hey, folks... I've been thinking that after Obama gets hillary off hos back that it would be a very good idea for him to approach Colin Powell about returning as Secretary of State, but with a new "mission"... Powell, interestingly, has not endorsed McCain and I think that Powell would shut up the folks who are saying that Obama doesn't have any foreign policy experience... What do you all think???" Is the man prescient? Let us hope so! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 26 Oct 08 - 12:05 PM I don't think Colin Powell want's a job per se, but that he is willing to act in support as a consultant. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 26 Oct 08 - 06:32 PM This morning, Robert Rubin (Sec. of Treasury under Clinton) said the same thing... that he is willing to consult, but does not want to go back to Washington. He HAS been advising Obama... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 26 Oct 08 - 06:59 PM Robert Rubin is one of the Wall Street people who helped to engineer the current economic meltdown. As Naomi Klein said, we need to make Robert Rubin as much of a political liability for Obama as the Reverend Wright. Throw him under the bus and get Josepth Stiglitz as economic advisor. http://fora.tv/2008/10/16/Naomi_Klein_Disaster_Capitalism |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: heric Date: 26 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM The power brokers will tell us who's going to head Treasury. It's not up to you me or Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 26 Oct 08 - 07:21 PM Maybe we can change that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM Hmmm.. Rubin gets lots of praise (in some quarters) for helping Clinton's administration leave office with the budget in good shape. What am I missing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:14 PM Robert Rubin is the person who persuaded Bill Clinton to sign the Gramm - Leach - Bliley act. And I would recommend watching the video I posted at 26 Oct 08 - 06:59 PM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:15 PM ...also the Commodity Futures Modernization Act. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:21 PM First of all, I'll repeat that Colin Powell would, IMO, be the best choice for Secretary of State that Obama could make... He knows the players and he has the humility to admit that he was on the wrong side of history over Iraq... Secondly, my hat's off to MiziAzizi... Glad you didn't elect to dump that post... It's important for everyone to understand that for many of us who came up in the 60's we are in the midst of a social experiement... Okay, I'm kinda biased (no, not prejudiced) to think that we are doing okay... Sure, we could be doing better but, all in all, we are hopefully about to elect Barak Obama and I think that, at the very least, gives out nation high grades in the experiement... With that said, I am disappointed with the South... I grow tired of hearing my fellow Southerners sound all smug about how they have lived with Black folks longer than Northerners and they get it when it comes to acceptance... As far as I can see there is a lot more talkin' of the talk than walkin' of the walk... And sometimes not even the talkin' of talk... I pick up my Washington Post every morning on the way to work at a gas station/general store where a lotta White folks hang out... I try to use my sense of humor and my status as a local musican to cajole the folks who hang out in there but many are very racist... They know I am working for Obama but there are a couple who go out of their way to say that they would be very happy if Obama were killed... One says he'd supply the rope... This is my world... Yeah, I say, "Hey, man, don't be like that 'er I'm gonna have to have Barak come in here and talk with ya'" which gets the usual laugh but this guy may think he's jus' makin' a joke but... Anyway, I'm glad you didn't erase that post, Miz.... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: artbrooks Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:45 PM And...who else supports Obama? The Anchorage Daily News, among others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Azizi Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:45 PM Thanks, Bobert. My post is what it is. I wrote something about bigotry this morning on this Mudcat thread because I was asked to and because I felt it important to do so. But I really don't want to talk about or write about racism, race relations, prejudice, bigotry, or bias anymore for a looong time. I recognize that if {make that "when"} Barack Obama becomes the 44th US president, that does not mean that America has reached a point where racism is eradicated. Yet, I agree that Barack Obama winning this election will mean that many Americans have turned our backs on the old order of race baiting and race hating. I know that there are lots of Mudcatters who know that racism hurts us all. I know that there are Mudcat members who have worked in the trenches much more than I have and are still working to eradicate racism and other inequities. And I know that there are Mudcatters besides me who have written on this forum about racism and probably will write other posts about this subject if & when they feel that the need arises. I'm glad of that. All I can say to you is "Good on you and keep on keepin on". And maybe I don't need to say this, but I feel the need to do so-if & when the subject of race and racism comes up, like everyone else here, I reserve the right not to comment. Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: meself Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:23 PM "I don't think Colin Powell want's a job per se, but that he is willing to act in support as a consultant." Sounds like a few folkies I know ... ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:31 PM Since he back-stabbed McCain, he could probably have anything he wanted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:29 AM Ya kknow, Rig, Colin POwell endorsing the candidate he chooses as best for good and sufficient reason cannot truly be characterized as "backstabbing" unless you think Powell was boughten and shoulda stayed boughten. It is possible both Obama and Powell have more integrity than that. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:22 AM It's more probable they both have less! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM No, Rigs, as per sual you just don't (can't) see things the way they are... Colin Powell didn't "backstab McCain"... McCain backstabed McCain by running from pillar to post trying to be whatever he thought voters wanted him to be... Powell gets no credit for McCain allowing himself to become a human pinball... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM McCain is going to lose this election. Whose fault is it? MCCAIN'S. and no one else's. His choice of Caribou Barbie was the last straw. She is clearly a clueless airhead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:56 AM Another life long Republican voting for Obama... Former Sen. Larry Pressler (R-S.D.), who was the first Vietnam veteran to serve in the United States Senate, is the latest Republican to back Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign, Politico learned Sunday. Pressler, who said that in addition to casting an absentee ballot for Obama he'd donated $500 to the Illinois senator's campaign, cited the Democrat's response to the financial crisis as the primary reason for his decision. "I just got the feeling that Obama will be able to handle this financial crisis better, and I like his financial team of [former Treasury Secretary Robert] Rubin and [former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul] Volcker better," he said. By contrast, John McCain's "handling of the financial crisis made me feel nervous." The former senator added that he hoped the next president would help place restraints on executive pay, and said: "I don't think [McCain] will take action in that area, or he's as likely to." Pressler, who said that he had never voted for a Democrat for president before, added, "I feel really badly. I just hate to go against someone I served with in the Senate. I voted and I got it mailed and I dropped it in the mailbox, and it tore at me to do that." Currently an adjunct professor at Baruch College in New York, Pressler served in the Senate from 1979 through 1997, and prior to that spent two terms in the House of Representatives. During the 104th Congress, from 1995 to 1997, Pressler chaired the Senate Commerce Committee. When Pressler was defeated for reelection in 1996, McCain took over his chairmanship. After leaving office, Pressler formed a legal and lobbying firm, The Pressler Group, and in 2002 unsuccessfully sought election to South Dakota's sole seat in the House of Representatives. He joins a growing list of Republicans who have thrown their support to Obama in recent days. Last Sunday former Secretary of State Colin Powell endorsed Obama on NBC's "Meet the Press." On Thursday Obama picked up the support of former Minnesota Gov. Arne Carlson, who was joined on Friday by former Massachusetts Gov. William Weld. Like some of Obama's other Republican supporters, Pressler said he had concerns about his party's fiscal policy, particularly the war in Iraq, that went beyond the presidential campaign. "We have to be a moderate party. We can't be for all these foreign military adventures. We have to stop spending so much money. My God, the deficit is so high!" he said. "The Republican Party I knew in the 1970s is just all gone." Despite his support for Obama, however, Pressler emphasized that he intended to stay in the GOP and described himself as a "moderate conservative." "I'm not leaving the Republican Party. We're going to reform it," he said, but added: "In the general election, if you have disagreements, you should not vote the party line." http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14963.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:05 AM Welcome aboard, Sen. Pressler! Fare-ye-well, Rig! Give our regards to the sharks! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:44 AM Alas, poor Rignslinger. I knew him Horatio. A fellow of infinite sarcasm, of most jaded fancy. He hath bored me through with barbed and barbatric thinking, a thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in my imagination it is! My gorge rises at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: CarolC Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM I don't think this is the time to gloat. McCain has been closing the gap a bit in the last few days. I think this is the time to volunteer ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:53 AM As Joe Hill might have said "Don't gloat,organize"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM "McCain is going to lose this election. Whose fault is it? MCCAIN'S." Actually, it's George Soros'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM McCain, I believe, will lose this election. But to blame it on McCain, Soros, or any other single issue/person is naieve. He will lose it as much because of Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich as any other reason. They are the ones who sowed the seeds of the crop that is being reaped in front of our eyes. Folks in the USA might still be spouting silly cliche's in their political dialogue, but they have woken up to the failed economics of the trickle down era and its successors. They may still mouth the silly whisper campaign generated drivel, but they are finally wising up to the fact that they have been voting against their own best interests. And they are seeing that the old "work hard and get ahead" crap was merely a feint to get you to look other places while the money lords got you to finance them, and transfer your wealth to them, through the use of over financing of credit debt. I saw an interesting stat on one of the morning shows today. It indicated that up until the recent past, Americans were saving an average of $10.00 out of every $100.00. Today that number is about 60 cents out of every $100.00. At one point a few years back it was actually a negative number. Now you can lay that off to irresponsibility on the part of the general population if you are looking for neat little answers. Or you can use your brain and look at it rationally, in which case you will understand that there was a massive push to take advantage of folks, get their money, and it led us to this moment. Yeah, McCain will lose IMO, and it will be largely due to his embracing old and discredited policies, being out of touch with where folks are really at, a lousy choice as his VP (probably his largest error), stacking his campaign with folks that have an agenda (Rove-ites, lobbyists, etc). There will be plenty of blame to go around. One last thing. For those who are Obama supporters, or who have hope that this young man will save us, be aware that the day after the election (presuming Obama is elected), the largest assault you have ever seen will begin on him. It will make the assault on the character and credibility of Bill Clinton seem like an episode from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. I believe Obama has all the tools needed to effectuate the types of changes necessary, but only if the rabid supporters continue their activism after the campaign is over. You may rest assurred that the dark forces are already planning their strategies to neuter this young man and reclaim control of the money system. These will be revolutionary times, and the stakes are nothing less than the future of your children and grandchildren. We must have a mandate in order to do the things that must be done. We must change the makeup of the Congress, and get the types of majorities necessary to allow this man to lead effectively. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM "He will lose it as much because of Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich as any other reason..." I would say more because of Reagan than anything else. He's the one who started the country towards financial ruin in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM He [McCain] will lose it as much because of Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich as any other reason. I was a straight-ticket Republican for thirty-six years. But then came the Gingrich years, with their tricky, ruthless, meanness. I went back to my roots. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:30 AM Rig: I think that was the smartest thing you've said on this site. Mick: Well said. I hope Obama and Axelrod's brilliant organizing skills will extend to post-election deflection of the kind of attacks you predict (I am afraid quite accurately). Otherwise the ducks will nibble and tanglefoot him to a standstill. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Wesley S Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:30 AM "the day after the election (presuming Obama is elected), the largest assault you have ever seen will begin on him. It will make the assault on the character and credibility of Bill Clinton seem like an episode from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. " Sad but true Mick. I was thinking the same thing as I was coming back from rehearsal the other night and listening to the "Savage Nation" radio show. The unadulterated hatred that's out there for Obama by some of these AM radio yahoos will be a big hurtle indeed. It's not going to subside after the election. It will just get worse. The Clinton years will seem like a walk in the park. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: GUEST,heric Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:37 AM I prefer to envision them coming along kicking and screaming. Come along, now. Nobody's gonna get hurt. But you're probably right. The unpleasant noise will probably be like an incessant jackhammer when you're trying to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:03 PM I think those of us who are skeptical critics will at least allow him to do something wrong first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Wesley S Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:59 PM In that case you'll have no trouble finding it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: kendall Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM Just sending Obama to the White House is not enough. We need a big majority in Congress. Otherwise, it's just more gridlock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM Right, Mick, and according to your VP candidate, Obama is going to be challenged by a major terrorist event designed to test Obama's mettle. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM Those were not his words, IIRC, DOug. But I expect if Obama gets tested he'll pass. He's shown over and over he has resolve and the will to face whatever comes up. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bobert Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM Mick is right.... McCain has run a very negative campaign and has really pissed off his base who will even even more pissed off if McCain loses... That's a bad thing but because of the manner in which McCain has run his campaign is going to happen no matter who wins... It almost as if McCain is purposely sabatoging the next administartion... That says something about how confident he can possibly be of winning... He has ensured that there are going to be a lot of pissed of people either way... Probably more so than even after the 2000 electtion... But, with that said, I do believe that there isn't a better candidate than Obama as someone who just might be able to bring the storm under some level of control... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: DougR Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM Rig: see Amos' post at 11;30AM, 27 Oct. There is an excellent lesson in that post. If you seek the approval of a liberal, all you have to do is post something he/she agrees with. Simple. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM Or at least, if you want his approval, post something he approves of. And you say this as if it is a revelation??? I also give approval when people intelligently and articulately state something I don't agree with, if they can show me why they believe it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:23 PM Doesn't that apply to everyone, Doug? And so it should - if someone whom we have regarded as an opponent says something we agree with it's only right to welcome that. Why, it's in the Gospels: "There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Big Mick Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:34 PM Doug, don't be smug. Biden simply stated the obvious. It is no different than when JFK came into office. You folks always talk about Biden's comment, but you always leave out the last part where Biden said that Obama has steel in his spine and will pass any test put out there. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Bill D Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:53 PM But...short **SLOGANS** are always easier to sell! Of course they leave out all the relevant parts! "He'll spread "He 'works closely' with terrorists" "His running mate SAYS he will be tested!" "He has no experience!" etc... ad nauseum |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM I agree, he has so many slimey associations, it looks like they'd use something more damaging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:15 PM Rig: I suspect John McCain's slimy-associates list is twice as long as Barack's. After all, he 's been in Washington much longer! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: heric Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:20 PM I suppose y'all have seen the news about the two skinhead kids and their plot. Maybe I shouldn't have taken this animosity thing so lightly. I must say, however, that I apparently live in a very sheltered world. All this stuff sounds so foreign to me. I can't relate to it at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:48 PM Once they round up all the skinheads, they can go after the Aryan Brotherhood, and the Neo-Nazi's, and the KKK, and World Church of the Creator, and... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: PoppaGator Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:22 PM "He will lose it as much because of Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich as any other reason..." I would say more because of Reagan than anything else. He's the one who started the country towards financial ruin in the first place. I don't give Reagan that much credit. This whole generation-long scenario was put into motion by Richard Nixon, inventor/creator of the Repubican party's "Southern Strategy." Make a conscious appeal to the fears and prejudices of underpaid white people ~ and persuade them to support you while you make sure they remain underpaid. Reagan was merely the product of that strategy's growing success through the 1970s. I believe he himself was a person seduced by a process that was already in place, who became a true believer, and whose communication skills and obvious sincerity made him a near-perfect figurehead, enabling his brain-trust (i.e., controllers) to firmly establish more power than ever before and really kick-start the process of redistributing wealth upwards. I don't think of Reagan as the "mastermind" of anything. He was never much more than "Only a Pawn in Their Game." It was Nixon who was the original evil genius. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:26 PM ANd who trained him? Henry Kissinger? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Ebbie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:00 PM "As I was saying to Henry..." Sarah Palin lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell supports Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:10 AM PappaG - I would agree that Reagan was just a pawn in the game, but he was the face his handlers put on "supply-side economics" and bringing superstition into government. Nixon imposed wage and price controls, so I think it started after him. |
