Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:49 PM

Jim, I may be the class buffoon, but re-read what I said.....and it's a subject I DO know something about......Quit engineering it! It only gets worse.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:36 PM

Jim, I'm fairly sure my perceptions were mainly based on the lack of confidence that I mentioned. Jeri didn't want to bother people who didn't want to be bothered. Jeri figured THEY'D make the first move if they really wanted to know me. Jeri didn't have enough confidence to walk up and initiate a conversation. Just maybe, nobody noticed anything wrong because Jeri just gave up without a word.

Mind you, I had fun at the sings, and everyone was supportive. It was just getting beyond politeness to friendship I never managed.

I still think we ought to be able to sleep with folks we prefer to sleep with...don't know if that sounded exactly right. I don't think sleeping and socialising should be handled the same way. I'll bet there are FSGW members who ask to be put with the same people every year. It doesn't necessarily have to be a cabin full of nothing but Mudcatters. Sorry, but after years of randomly assigned roommates in the Air Force, including one 4-week stint sleeping in a warehouse with a few hundred other people I didn't know, I feel very strongly about this. If I don't have a choice, I'll bring a tent.

Of course, I don't know that anyone actually had a problem with the sleeping arrangements. I haven't heard any complaints about the jam, but nobody who wasn't sleeping there even looked in. When I went back to the cabin, most folks were toddling off to sleep, anyway. I wasn't aware the noise bothered anyone - no one said a word about it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:02 PM

I think FSGW has changed of late, partly because I'm seeiing new faces. I also want to emphasize that my feelings were just that - feelings and perceptions. They may have reflected a real situation or they may have not.

Here is an idea for next year's Getaway. Rather than have people list names (or maybe in addition to) why not have them list sleeping preferences, musical styles, and/or late night expectations. We could have an all night jamming cabin, maybe an old time or singing cabin, a celtic group, etc. etc. etc.. Heck we could even have a SNORING CABIN!

Also if there were people that wanted to go to bed early they could be put together, recognizing that they would be welcome in the cabins that were making music at any time.

JAB

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM

I didn't even KNOW there was a Mudcat Cabin until I saw Kendall a bit the worse for wear at the workshop the next morning! Planned on visiting it the second night but I got waylayed by a couple of great jams on the way.

Sinsull, that was too bad the "Bruce" guy jumped on you for an innocent question. Manners, sadly, aren't manditory. Actually, I got a chance to talk to Bruce O a couple of times at the Traditional workshops up in the "white" house. He seemed to be enjoying himself. I didn't notice any divisions, but maybe I just missed them. Sure had fun though.

Rick

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:08 PM

Mary, I do have a few differing sides to my personality and the Docs are still trying to figure out how and when each one emerges.....the meds don't seem to help.

I really value this thread too Rita. It has all the personality characteristics we all share and hate to admit. The reality of being Homo sapiens is that we are 98% alike and yet focus on the 2% which make us different....something that is not true in other species. It's the reason we have so many sexual problems that don't seem to plague dogs or horses......mules are probably a little screwed up.

It is inevitable that social problems are going to occur because we all share the herd instinct and yet the thinking part of us wants to be one big, happy family....at least some of the time. So one person is offended, another is not, another doesn't notice. It's all a part of the game and no engineering on our part will fix everyone in each instance. The FSGW and 'Catter mix is doing quite well and with increased numbers the likelihood of negative as well as positive interaction between groups and individuals will increase. We can all be aware of the problem and that by itself should be enough. Trying to work in other plans to force better relations are foredoomed to failure.

We have all had the experience of introducing one friend ot another and trying to get a friendship going between them......and it don't work now do it? Sometimes the magic is there and sometimes it's not. I think the Getaway is a wonderful example of perhaps the best we can expect and to try to throw in things to force unity is a wasted and possibly dangerous effort. Y'all are doing well....everyone......a few will be less that happy....let it alone. I can see the Getaway only becoming better as more people from both groups see each other more often.

However, and with all of that in mind, sharing an anniversary could and would work with the FSGW folks as long as each "group" was aware of a couple of things. For 'Catters it would be important to try to be as thanking and friendly to the FSGW'ers as possible and other things to be less 'Catter elitist, or whatever. The FSGW people will have to allow that a 10 year WorldWide Gathering would probably make that ONE Getaway a little different that others and not to expect the same things. By that point too, there should be a history of decent relations on a smaller scale like this year. If we could all simply agree to that and not allow hurt feelings to get in the way on this one occasion, it'd be great!

Can that happen? I'm skeptical but hopeful based on what I read here.......Could work. Could be a disaster. One way or another, a lot of things like that would have to be implicit.

Just an opinion......again........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM

It is a nice conversation - and the tenor of the conversation as I see it is that the FSGW seems to be doing a really great job lately of making non-members feel at home - but may be alienating some of it's members - and/or the "guests" may be inadvertantly doing so.

BTW - BruceO introduced himself to me (!) I can't say for certain that he came up to the barn for that purpose - but he came in - introduced himself - stayed for one or two songs and disappeared.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Ferrara
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:35 PM

Too many thoughts going through my head at once....

I have been thinking I'd like to see us do away with the "Mudcat Cabin" label. We have room (I think) on the application for people to state which friends they'd like to share a cabin with. I've made a lot of friends through the years just by sharing a cabin. Maybe if there is just a bit more mixing people up in the cabins?

I love the idea of an "All-night jams" cabin, too.

I'm wondering: One important thing for Mudcatters is to be able to put together a face and a Mudcat name. How about if we had a volunteer, a member of Mudcat, who would put together a set of name buttons that just contain people's on-line Mudcat name? (And a catfish?....) Instead of including them on the Getaway buttons, or commenting on Mudcat membership during the concerts?

The Saturday "Who are all these people?" workshop, which I have referred to in the photos as "Musical Meet-n-Greet," was deliberately set up to spotlight people who have found the Getaway through Mudcat, AND people who have a history with the Getaway and had already been coming for years before Mudcat existed. Mick and I co-led it, and took turns picking out people to introduce to the group. I heard from a number of people that it worked very well.

I did have to explain a couple of Mudcat jokes though, since half the group was ROFL and the other half were sitting there looking puzzled.

But, look -- that's all it took. Realizing that a lot of people weren't in on the joke, and quickly explaining it. It just takes a few minutes thought sometimes and a little extra effort.

Jeri and Jim B -- I believe FSGW, at least the parts I inhabit, has changed a lot since earlier times. I used to be fairly appalled at how little attention visitors or new people got unless they were good musicians. (I'm happy to say that people still come up to me and tell me that I made them welcome on their first visit to an Open Sing, etc.)

Dean, LaMarca and Jim, I'm very glad you brought up the subject and started this thread; this seems to me to be a fruitful, and thoughtful, discussion.

Rita

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:33 PM

I must have missed something. I found myself sharing tunes and songs with everyone. But I will admit that I met most of these people through the kids who were running around. Befriend a child and within an hour Mom visits. Already have a date with a young man and his mother for the Scary Story Workshop next year - he missed "Mrs. Ravoon" and was too shy to ask Kendall to sing it Sunday night.
I don't think I worked particularly hard at chatting with "strangers", just asked questions when I was genuinely interested and made friends. Two FSGW members have my name and email. They have lyrics and leads to some recordings I need.
I had only one minor incident but it raised a red flag: I approached a man named Bruce and asked if he were BruceO explaining that BruceO used to post on Mudcat but now I know him only through his webpage. The icy reply I received was "I don't OWN a computer." A woman nearby sniggered. I smiled and said "Well, when you get one, come visit me at Mudcat." and walked away. That small group obviously resented Mudcat but I did not see them taking part in much but their own private exchanges. I was offended but also confused - isn't BruceO a known entity at FSGW? Part of the inner clique, she asks facetiously? Maybe they actually resented his inner clique status, not Mudcat.
I never ate a meal alone - lunch almost always with non-'Catters. Lots of interest and amusement at how we all came together.Commiseration over the dreadful burgers; Thrills over the salad bar.

I guess the final test of whether or not there is a "problem" is whether or not you'll be returning next year...I will. And so will Spaw and Karen!!!!! Damn it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Fortunato
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:57 PM

I have been a FSGW member and occasional worker (mostly the Washington Folk Festival) since about 1977. I have been posting most days on the Mudcat for just over two years.

I just walked up and said, Hi, I'm Chance or Fortunato to lots of people this past weekend. Several people I had just met, Dick Swain and Rick Fielding, Jed Marum for example just walked up and sat in with Susette and I.

But Friends not everybody is unshy or gregarious enough to just approach a stranger, or someone not well known and said Hi or do Ya'll know "Move it on Over.

I never attribute to clannishness what can be explained by self-absorption (me sometimes) or shyness or introversion (me never!)

By the way, some of us opt each year not to go to the Saturday concert. Susette and I were torn. We had written a comedy sketch and readied a song for the concert, but our oldest jamming buddies prevailed on us and we were in the TV room all night long just like last year. Not because we want to be apart from FSGWers or Catters, but because it's our annual time to play music together. Regards, Chance

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:19 PM

As far as the cabin goes, is it not normal for people to select who they sleep with? Many of the Mudcat folks are close friends and some feel like family to me. I'm more than happy to put on a social face when I'm somewhere besides 'home', but I'd rather not have to feel sociable where I sleep.

I do think we need to quit stressing our Mudcat connection, though. I don't think we need to avoid all mention of it. Maybe if we just adopt an attitude of "I am an individual at the Getaway" instead of "I am a Mudcatter at the Getaway." Maybe we individuals are on Mudcat, maybe we're FSGW members, maybe we're guests. References to Mudcat membership sometimes felt like "he/she/I is/am one of THEM." I've been coming for 3 years now, and I don't want to be "them" - I want to be "us." Thank goodness, nobody seemed to ever TREAT me like one of "them" after the first year, and the first year "them" was seen as a bunch of friendly others. At least that's how I felt.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:17 PM

I think that many Mudcatters have gotten used to coming to the Getaway by now, and maybe it's now time to start treating them as individual friends instead of as a group. (After all, out-of-town friends have been coming to the Getaways since long before the invention of personal computers. ) Instead of a "Mudcatville" cabin, we may just have a "jam all night" cabin (isolated, to the great relief of people who were stuck trying to sleep near all that noise).

To further complicate matters, we ought to be inviting people from other folk societies around the country (and the world). Those of you living about the country who make music with friends in your localities--tell them about this weekend, whether they're Mudcatters or not. Computer literacy, a Mudcat handle, or a willingness to participate in this electronic forum are not prerequisites; only a love of the music (or of a weekend where this music is central) is.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: lamarca
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM

Spaw, you have a say - I'm just surprised it's so thoughtful and not invoking TNYCFTS (or whatever that acronym is...LOL)

I came up with an analogy I liked in a note to Jeri:

The Getaway was sortof like one of those parties that couples or housemates sometimes give, where they invite everyone they know from their different workplaces, their church, their bowling league, their theater group. Even though everyone's pretty nice and they all know the hosts, pretty soon there are small clusters of people in the kitchen and the TV room and standing awkwardly in the living room, talking to the folks they know. It takes a really skilled people person to get the groups to mix and mingle happily, something which most of us inadequately socialized folkies are not particularly adept at.

I'm not trying to say folks were out-and-out rude; I just wanted to raise the level of consciousness about the issues involved. That done, I think that the Mudcatters ought to explore renting a camp in a centralish location (in the US?)and throwing our own big blowout weekend for the 10th!

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM

I have no say in this actually, but I'll take one anyway.

It's obvious even from an on-line perspective that the FSGW does have an inner core and it's equally true that Mudcat has the same. It's not really a "clique" in the classic sense of the word, but more a group you can generally count on to be active and there who have also become friends, whether "virtual" or "real." Happens in damn near all groups of any sort that I've ever known. It's a non-issue if people can crack the group and in both of the above cases, they can. There is probably about 60-70 or so 'Catters who are more active in both answering requests AND chatting to one degree or another.

As to the "separation" of FSGW and Mudcat........A certain amount of that IS inevitable too. It doesn't mean that either group is exclusive of the other, but simply that people tend to operate within their own comfort levels and the relationships built here are an easy in compared to meeting an entirely new group of people.

That said, no matter what the reality, there are those in any kind of mixture like this that will feel snubbed whether this actually happened or not. Sometimes it's just a "feeling." How are you supposed to fix that? You aren't going to fix it......ever.

To me the best thing to come out of this particular discussion is that I feel justified in saying that should the 'Cat be able to pull off a ten year anniversary party, it should not be affiliated with the Getaway as I said on that thread. I know it would work out for many, but for many others it would simply be a source of hard feelings............and not worth the risk.

Just an opinion.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:04 PM

Frankly, I could see no reason for introducing people at the open-mike as to whether they were FSGW or 'Catters. The FSGW folks all seem to know one another and the 'Catters seem to know one another as well. It really didn't amount to a hill of beans to me one way or another. I didn't hear any thunderous applause from either group whenever their group's name was mentioned - the way it would be if, say, you had two opposing football teams in the same room. So, it seemed as though it didn't mean a hill of beans to anyone else.

I fully agree that the segregated housing seemed to reinforce the divisions. Such segregation may have been a good idea when the Mudcat contingent was brand new to the gathering; but now it really is superfluous to continue it. As mentioned above, most of the Mudcats know one another by name or at least through pictures we have seen.

The so-called late-night Mudcat session in cabin #10 was not exclusive in any way. Anyone at all would have been welcome there. In fact, I was rather disappointed that (as far as I know) it was the ONLY session in any of the cabins. Everyone else seemed to insist upon trying to have their sessions in the dining hall. This meant that there was quite a bit of overlap of sound which, in some instances, resulted in a marginally unpleasant cacaphony. If more of those sessions had been in the cabins, it would have been much nicer all around. (IMHO)

I guess what I am saying, and what has been said by others here and on the "memories" thread is that there were things that were done to reinforce the divisions which could easily be eliminated or at least reduced in future years.

As I see it, on one weekend of each year, a bunch of like-minded folks gather at Camp Ramblewood. Nothing more; nothing less. I enjoyed getting to know many of them. I hope to meet more in the future.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:21 AM

Dean - I thought as well that perhaps too much was made of which people were mudcats and which not at various times; It certainly didn't bother me, but I can see where it might bother an FSGW member.

I have been at other functions where there were multiple organizations and this kind of thing always seems to be a problem - but no matter what is done, someone is unhappy - because there will always be some people who want to KNOW and be ABLE to differentiate between the members of the various groups - and those who find it irritating and distracting.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM

Spaw, I was waiting for that.

On a serious note, if there were people amongst the hosting FSGWers who felt the Mudcat folks were being snobby, stand-offish, or unfriendly in some way, I'd love to hear about their experiences. Not necessarily vague impressions, but what actually happened to make them feel that way.

There were some FSGW members who never seemed to speak to people outside a small group of friends. They didn't really talk to me when I was in the FSGW, either. I figure they're in their comfort zone, but not snobs. Although if that were true, they'd probably be happy if Mudcatters didn't approach them.

So I'm still left wondering what, if anything, actually happened to those people who felt shut out to make them feel shut out. I'm wondering if it's a whole bunch of people or just a couple. If it's a whole group of folks, perhaps we could do something in general, although I have no idea specifially what. Got ideas? I can't see any way that people involved in any of the jams could feel snubbed, anyway. If it's just several folks, it may just be an individual personality issue, and there's not much we can do about that short of singling them out to be nice to. Mind you, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but they might.

My e-mail address is on the Directory of Registrants. I notice that most of the other registrants have e-mail addresses listed. I respect honesty, I'll 'listen', and I'll keep it private.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: lamarca
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM

Well, since I was the one kvetching on the other thread, I'll put my nickel in (but there's a $5 fine for whining...)

The "inner core" of the FSGW IS hard to crack. What many of the people who are "in" have in common, though, is that we are the folks who jump in do do the volunteer work to make the organization run. The FSGW was founded by a group of friends in the 60's. I didn't come along until the 80's, by which time I had missed a lot of shared experiences. I was just starting to sing, and felt shy and inadequate about my musical abilities. But I could set up chairs, fold newsletters, set up festival stages, etc, just fine! As soon as I started to join in to do some of the work, as opposed to just attending gatherings, hanging around on the outside and hoping someone would notice me, I got sucked in and joined the crew.

I think a lot of organizations are like that - the "insiders" tend to give more of themselves to the group, and get more back as a result. Even those of us slackers who have STOPPED doing the grunt work get to rest on our laurels in the social aspects of the group.

This is one difference between the newer Mudcat folks and the FSGW crowd. The Catters have mostly bonded through 'virtual' experiences, with occasional 'real-life' interactions. If more 'Catters start working with local folkies here, the divisions will be less obvious. But as long as folks here talk about "the Mudcat jam" when referring to a late night sing as though it were an exclusive group, as long as people are housed together in "Mudcat cabins", as long as people are introduced by their affiliation or lack of it with the Mudcat, there will be a sense of "otherness" about the group that is just as hard to crack as the FSGW core group.

For folkies who have no desire to join an internet chat group, there IS no other way to become part of the Mudcat community. It's not like being able to help out on a concert, or coming to sing a song at a monthly swap. A lot of folkies are Luddites at heart, and the thought of spending lots of time on-line instead of gathering with real people and making music together just doesn't seem very appealing. It doesn't help for folks like Charlie Baum to deny that any separation exists because there are FSGW members who are also Mudcatters- I have a foot in both worlds, yes, but I've stopped contributing to Mudcat because I'd rather spend my time reading and making music than wading through the constant flow of correspondance that binds people together on the Cat.

I'm asking that the Catters who come to the Getaway recognize that there are neat singers and musicians there who you haven't traded fart jokes with on the computer, share a song or a tune with someone who isn't wearing a Mudcat button or T-shirt, and let the folks here on line know about some of the people you met who don't have a "handle". I know that many folks have done that on the Memories thread; I'd just like to encourage a bit more self-awareness about how "insider" groups go both ways...

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:04 AM

I'll bet that every one of us has, in the past, felt like a wet dog at a wedding. Out of place, not fitting in. Maybe it's because we are a little out of the main stream to begin with? I mean, normal people dont do folk music, do they? I used to think I'd fit in only on the Island of mis fit toys.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: DeanC
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:17 AM

Well, since I started this discussion over on the Getaway thread, I suppose I should say something here. For many years I was also one of those FSGW members who went to things (concerts, festivals, getaways) but didn't really feel part of the organization. The people who were running things could be intimidating. I gradually started doing a few things for the Getaway and as a result was asked (by Nancy King) to work on the Washington Folk Festival. I began to meet the people who were at the core of FSGW. Things got ridiculous after that. I chaired a number of Getaways, was a coordinator of the Washington Folk Festival for a total of nine years, and a president of FSGW for four years. All of that was greatly rewarding partly because of the feeling of accomplishment but mostly for the people I met and worked with.

As a result I have become pretty familiar with the problems of FSGW. One of the big ones is that feeling that Jeri and GutBucketeer mentioned that there is an inside group that is impenetrable. I had it, too, but note that that very group pulled me into it. It is true that people who work together a lot tend to party together a lot also. That's part of the fun. But the core is not as exclusive as people percieve it to be. Actually its pretty friendly.

BillD is correct that Mudcat has to a degree saved the Getaway by bringing new faces to the gathering. We definitely need the bodies and their money to continue doing it. If you are also interested in helping with the planning, I can assure that your help will be appreciated.

Now, as to the separateness of Mudcatters from FSGW'ers - I don't want to make too big a thing of this. I merely noticed that in a few ways during the evening concerts and at some of the workshops much was made of peoples Mudcat identity. Maybe we don't need to play that up so much. I just feel like doing it sort of leaves the non-Mudcatters feeling like they "weren't in on the joke." This is not a big deal and can be one of the little tweaks that is always given to the Getaway from year to year.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:36 AM

Okay, now that all the serious huggy stuff has been passed here, I'd like to talk about my 3D Organ............Of course mine isn't a 3D but if you'll tell me your sizing chart, perhaps I can adapt.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:22 AM

Having been, over the years, to other gatherings that were similar in nature to the wonderful Getaway, I'll throw out a few thoughts.

Lotsa space: This is Crucial. Without it you might have one big song circle with Ballad folk, Country players, Bluesers, Old Tymers etc. and the music tends to not satisfy as much as when you can 'get in a groove' with one style. At the gettaway there is room for several smaller gatherings, each one focused on a (vaguely) specific type of music. More fun that way I think. many of us jumped around from group to group and then tried to adapt to the 'dynamic'.

I've been places where folks complain the next morning that their group was 'hijacked' by some other form of music. That may sound trivial to some, but I understand what they mean. Take ballads....you get used to the 'story' mood, and if someone jumps in with an up-tempo Hank Williams tune it can be distracting. Having the space for each little group really allows people to get into their favourite 'groove'.

Even after all these years, I'm still pretty shy around strangers, so I know I simply HAVE to make an effort to go up to them and say "hi". It really manifests itself when you're lookin' for a spot to sit for mealtime. It's not the easiest thing to plunk yourself down 'mongst a group that seem to know each other really well....but when you do....you've just made some new friends, and boy, that's worth it.

I found the Getaway folks very welcoming, friends and strangers alike.

Rick

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:56 PM

Jeri: I wonder the same thing about myself, but it is their problem. It's like my singing and playing. I still am not sure if I'm good or bad. I just know that I can't do anything else, and I hope I am good enough that it is enjoyable for others. I promise you, that you are beyond good. But, I bet that if you are like me that no matter how many times you hear it, there is still this little doubt in the back of your mind.

In the South that my mother grew up in (really West Texas) it was the host's responsibility to make sure everyone was part of what was going on and feeling connected. Even now, sometimes I just watch in amazement when during a party, wedding, or other event hosted by a Southerner. It is truly an art to weave through the crowd drawing shy folks into a conversation here, introducing two people that they think will get along there, drawing out strangers. We lost something in our new modern world.

So don't worry about what is the past. You certainly are not that way now !

JAB

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM

Don't get weird on me Kendall..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:22 PM

As far as I'm concerned we are all one big happy family, and, I embrace everyone of you as a good friend no matter the group to which you belong, or dont.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:03 PM

Jim, I wonder how many people thought I was stand-offish back then because I was a bit too timid to go up and say 'Hi'. It's those assumptions that make social life more unpleasant than it should be, whether it's on the internet or in person...

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:41 PM

I second what Jeri said.

I am sure I have changed over the years. Sometimes I kick myself when I realize what I have missed by waiting for an invatation and not just jumping in. I guess I lost my inhibitions when I got my grey hair :-).

Anyway, as I said before It seemed like one big happy family to me. I just wish I could have stayed for Sunday Night.

JAB

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM

The bottom line is we are all people who like folk music, and we have different friends within that community, but we're open to meeting new folks.

It's funny - I was a member of FSGW for three years before Mudcat existed. I went to open sings, concerts and a couple of festivals. I felt like it was very hard to get to know people, and never felt like I fit in. I knew about the Getaway, but didn't feel comfortable going. I felt like I'd be a stranger among people who all knew each other. Many people I remember from the sings didn't recognise me when I went to the first Getaway.

Now, I feel much more like a member of FSGW than when I belonged to it. The difference, I believe, is that maybe I'm a bit more confident - a bit more willing to stick my neck out and talk to, or make music, with people I don't know. I sure can't believe all those other folks got more friendly.

When I was at the Getaway, I didn't think about the person sitting next to me as being from one group or the other. I don't think many of those I played or sang with, or just talked to, looked at it from an "us vs. them" perspective, and I'm sorry if some folks still see things that way. If FSGW members want to feel a group identity and be proud - PLEASE DO! You've got a lot to be proud of. One of those things is that because of the friendliness of most members, I spent the whole weekend feeling like I was part of one big group and NOT feeling like part of an invading horde. I'd really prefer to keep it that way.

Thank you, to all who worked to make the Getaway happened, and who everyone I spoke, played, or sang with. For me, this past weekend was as good as it gets.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM

funny, Jim...I walked into FSGW years ago and stuck my nose into everything I could...and the 1st Getaway I went to, I was on the planning committee...and by my 2nd Getaway I was co-chair!...Sure, any time you enter ANY group you will find clots of people who know each other and hang out together a lot..(is that what a 'clique' is?)

But FSGW, just like Mudcat, is easy to crash...just like music, DO music, talk about it ...and try not to be a total dork *wink*..(that's a BIG *wink* and *grin*)

Mixing into new group configurations is always fraught with perils, and this 'virtual community' thing is pretty new, with only partially formed traditions so far.

I do know that as people move and grow older, FSGW,even though it has a lot of 'members', has a much smaller 'core group' than it used to, and the Getaway has been hard pressed to stay near the critical mass needed to make such a gathering work, and frankly, in my opinion, Mudcat and new faces..(and their $$$$) have been the salvation of the Getaway!..Sure, it could limp along for years, but folkies are sorta outnumbered in this world, and we need all the contacts and cross-pollenization we can muster.

I have no idea what the relationship between FSGW and Mudcat and other folkie groups will be in 5-10 years, but I have heard some VERY interesting ideas...I look forward to the debate/discussion.

Subject: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM

I'm starting this thread because I don't want the Getaway Memory thread to be diverted by what I feel is a very worthy and important discussion.

Mudcat and FSGW and other real world organizations or gatherings are different things. One is virtual, somewhat anonymous, and basically egalitarian. The other is part of the real world, sing and play together, share experiences.... bond.... and maybe most important passing on the traditions from masters to apprentices. I'm sure there are similar communities in other parts of the world / USA.

Mudcat is good for FSGW and FSGW is good for Mudcat.

I had been a FSGW member for several years before I became involved in the Mudcat. I went to an occasional concert and/or the Folk and minifest. I always felt that somehow I was invading some private family gathering, and that at some point those there had stopped focusing on today and the future and started reminiscing about the halcyon days of the folk revival. The circle just seemed to be getting smaller and smaller. I also got extremely tired of debates on the "right" version of a song, or it was this way when I heard the original collector sing it, or sitting through the full 40 verses of an obscure ballad sung acappella. I looked elsewhere for my companionship in folk music (the web, the Capital Area Autoharpers, local jams) and had the feeling that the FSGW was a stand offish group that really did not want new members (Note, that I now know that this couldn't be further from the truth!, but it was what I felt at the time). I was intimidated.

This not just an FSGW phenomenae, but I have seen it elsewhere across the country with folk music in general and any other long term organization. Every organization needs a well spring or source of new members, ideas, and enthusiasm. One of these sources for the FSGW is the Mudcat. Through the Mudcat, I got to know other area members and found out that they were really a great group of helpful and encouraging folks. I started to go to their monthly sings and am now starting to volunteer for stuff. Of course, my interests, background, and knowledge are not the same as those that have been in the Folk community and with FSGW since the 1960s. And as I and others become regulars the FSGW will change.

THIS IS GOOD !

On the other hand Mudcat is a virtual world. Through it you can tap into the largest folk knowledge base ever assembled! Yet, people often don't act like people in the threads. You, don't bond the same way. There is no apprenticeship. Often, people just fade away. What has happened to Folk1234, Moon Jen, and others that were regulars of the past. FSGW and other groups provide the places and events where we can become "real" to one another. AND MOST IMPORTANT FOR A MUSIC GROUP WHERE WE CAN SHARE OUR MUSIC WITH OTHERS. Mudcat only offers the introduction and invitation to the ball. It is a communication channel. Never forget,however, that FSGW provides the Ball!

THIS IS GOOD !

Are they different. They shouldn't be. I really saw no differences at the Getaway except maybe where we bunked. They are both extensions of the Folk Community. Also, as time goes on and both evolve the distinction may fade away.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents

JAB