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The Advent and Development of Chanties

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Steve Gardham 29 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM
John Minear 29 Mar 10 - 04:12 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Mar 10 - 03:59 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Mar 10 - 03:55 PM
mikesamwild 29 Mar 10 - 03:38 PM
mikesamwild 29 Mar 10 - 03:33 PM
Gibb Sahib 29 Mar 10 - 02:30 PM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 10 - 11:30 AM
John Minear 29 Mar 10 - 09:13 AM
Gibb Sahib 28 Mar 10 - 09:58 PM
Gibb Sahib 28 Mar 10 - 09:36 PM
Gibb Sahib 28 Mar 10 - 08:17 PM
John Minear 28 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM
Gibb Sahib 28 Mar 10 - 07:25 PM
Lighter 28 Mar 10 - 06:08 PM
meself 28 Mar 10 - 05:00 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Mar 10 - 04:56 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Mar 10 - 04:06 PM
John Minear 28 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM
John Minear 28 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM
John Minear 28 Mar 10 - 10:28 AM
John Minear 28 Mar 10 - 09:06 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Mar 10 - 05:08 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Mar 10 - 04:28 PM
John Minear 27 Mar 10 - 07:38 AM
John Minear 27 Mar 10 - 07:31 AM
John Minear 27 Mar 10 - 07:07 AM
Charley Noble 26 Mar 10 - 10:13 PM
Gibb Sahib 26 Mar 10 - 07:58 PM
Gibb Sahib 26 Mar 10 - 07:44 PM
John Minear 26 Mar 10 - 05:50 PM
John Minear 26 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM
shipcmo 26 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Mar 10 - 03:39 PM
mikesamwild 26 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM
Lighter 26 Mar 10 - 12:35 PM
Lighter 26 Mar 10 - 11:58 AM
John Minear 26 Mar 10 - 08:46 AM
doc.tom 26 Mar 10 - 07:24 AM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 11:10 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM
Lighter 25 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 09:45 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 09:42 PM
Lighter 25 Mar 10 - 09:32 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 09:06 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 08:55 PM
Lighter 25 Mar 10 - 08:40 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 08:20 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM
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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM

Absolutely, the direction of influence between the different sources is a minefield. In most cases I would imagine influences were flying back and forth between the different genres at quite a rate. Some channels of influence are more obvious than others.

African-American culture parodied/utilised in minstrel genre.
Land-based work song on water-based worksong.
Once the minstrel craze took off - universal influence.
To mention but a few.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:12 PM

See this note and the one that follows it for more on "Round the Corner Sally":

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=488#2874274

I think that it is unclear which way the influences went on this song. It could just as easily have gone from chanty to blackface minstrel. Emmett wrote his song "Ole Aunt Sally", which contains the single line in the chorus about "round the corner, Sally", in 1843, and we have at least one earlier reference to the chanty (1839) that assumes that it has been out there for a while (Reynolds).


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:59 PM

Gibb,
What I meant to imply by the 'Round the Corner, Sally' statement is that it is a well-worn phrase with a meaning and is used elsewhere other than shanties so if its name crops up at random it doesn't necessarily mean it is anything to do with the shanty of that name.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:55 PM

Hi Mike,
Yes I agree the impact of the minstrel stuff from about 1844 onwards is dramatic. They were the Beatles songs of their day and had enormous influence both at sea and on land.

Gibb,
Am in complete agreement on the later arrival of halyard shanties.

'Round the Corner Sally' comes from the minstrel influence. Lady of easy virtue. see Hugill p389. Its use as a reference to Cape Horn, if ever used in that way, probably came later.

Charley, what evidence is there to suggest that the cook's song was a shanty?


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:38 PM

Has anyone gone into any real detail on the impact of minstrel show music. It seems to have a massive impact on popular music in its day
and likely into shanties


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:33 PM

i think the melodeon mentioned in one reply on Stormy was a harmonium type instrument not a squeezebox and not sung at sea anyway ( neither with concertinas)


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 02:30 PM

Trying to summarize a bit, so far....

1780s-90s:

General references to African and New World Black work-songs, from Mali, Grenada.

1800s:

General references to African-American work-songs and their style, from Martinique;
Rowing songs from Georgia, South Carolina, Guyana, Surinam;
Windlass songs, aboard vessels with sailors incl. from Northumberland and Holland.

1810s:

2 stevedore songs from Jamaica that resemble chanteys;
African-American rowing songs from Antigua, Virgin Islands;
Singing and fife-playing at the capstan on a British war ship.

1820s:

Rowing songs, from Georgia, Virginia, St. Thomas;
A version of "Cheerly Men" for topsail halyards on a brig near Quebec;
Fictional capstan shantying in the Arctic; capstan (?) song of British tars in London; chant for pulling known to an ex-British navy man. [I've also seen another reference to the phrase "British capstan song" from 1825.]

1830s:

African-American rowing songs in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Guyana, and "West Indies"
African-American firemen's songs on the Ohio and in general
Cotton stowing songs in Mobile Bay
"Ditties" at the capstan on an East India Company ship
A song at the pump windlass on a transatlantic voyage
Songs "for capstan and falls" and for catting anchor, on brigs off the coast of California
A capstan song on a ship off the coast of Arabia
The adoption of capstan songs and sailors' "ditties" by locals of Tahiti and the Society Islands

Summary:
Through the 1830s, references to African-American work-songs for rowing continued to appear. Since the 20s and continuing through the 30s, cotton-stowing had work-songs. The work-songs of the Black firemen/stokers in steamboats emerge in the 1830s. These all seem share some features, though it is difficult to say how similar they actually were; some songs crossed occupations.

At the same time, there is increasing reference to the songs/ditties for capstan. Though the practice was older, new songs were being added, some of which were probably popular songs of the time, for example "Grog Time of Day," which crossed cultures. By the end of the 30s, there were songs for the pump windlass that may have shared a form with what is ow thought of as a halyard chanty form. At least one instance of the jump from Black rowing songs to (perhaps from?) deepwater sailors' songs --and then to Pacific Islanders! -- is found at the end of this period in "Bottle O." "Round the Corn/er" is another song that seemed to float around between cultures and occupations; it is quite unclear to me whether it had any sort of definite form at all, or if it was a common catch-phrase.

I still wonder if, by the 1830s, the African-American style work-songs that would come to typify much of the "chanty" repertoire had yet any significant influence on the deepwater sailors.

I'd love to hear more opinions on this subject -- on whether one feels that the sort of chanty forms typified by "Roll the Cotton Down" and "Blow the Man Down" and "Whiskey Johnny" and "Hanging Johnny" etc etc had entered the scene by the 1820s or 1830s.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 11:30 AM

Here's an oddity of a shanty:

From Black Hands, White Sails, by Patricia C. McKissack & Frederick L. McKissack, published by Scholastic Press, New York, US, © 1999, p. 85.

Hi Ho My Dandy-oh

Oh a dandy ship and a dandy crew,
Hi Ho My Dandy-oh!
A dandy mate and a skipper too,
Hi Ho My Dandy-oh!

Oh what shall I do for my dandy crew?
Hi Ho My Dandy-oh!
I'll give them wine and brandy too,
Hi Ho My Dandy-oh!

Notes:

From a whaling ship's log (date unknown) transcribing the singing of the Black cook "Doctor" while the crew were "cutting out" a whale, according to the historian A. Howard Clark.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 09:13 AM

Here is what may be a crossover between "Round the corner, Sally" and "Cheerily, Men". It comes from ETCHINGS OF A WHALING CRUISE, by John Ross Browne, and is dated 1846. The events described take place in October of 1842 (I think). The song is being used at the windless. (pp. 133-134)

        "Heave him up! O he yo!
                Butter and cheese for breakfast
        Raise the dead! O he yo!
                The steward he's a makin' swankey.
        Heave away! O he yo!
                Duff for dinner! Duff for dinner
        Now I see it! O he yo!
                Hurrah for the Cape Cod gals!
        Now I don't. O he yo!
                *Round the corner, Sally!*
        Up she comes! O he yo!
                Slap-jacks for supper!
        Re-re-ra-ra-oo-we ye yo ho! Them's 'um!"

http://books.google.com/books?id=AmtGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA134&dq=%22Round+the+corner,+Sally%22&lr=&cd=27#v=onepage&q=%22Round%20the%20c

Here is some discussion of "Cheerily, Men" as used by Melville, and there seems to be a connection between the song above and "Cheerily", at least in Melville.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I4fBI3yuj7MC&pg=PA22&dq=%22O+he+yo!%22&cd=9#v=onepage&q=%22O%20he%20yo!%22&f=false

The other interesting thing about this song is the phrase "O he yo!" A Google Book Search will lead you to seeing this as "O-hi-o".


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 09:58 PM

In THE PRIVATE JOURNAL OF WILLIAM REYNOLDS: UNITED STATES EXPLORING EXPEDITION, 1838-1842, by William Reynolds, Nathaniel Philbrick, and Thomas Philbrick, there is mentioned, on page 97 (Penguin Edition), that

       "Many of the girls at Point Venus [Tahiti] have learned the chorus songs common with sailors in heaving up the Anchor & other work...Their voices were good, and the ditties of "So early in the morning the Sailor loves his bottle oh," "Round the corner, Sally," "Tally Ho, you know" & a dozen others were often heard along the beach for half the night." (sometime between September 18th & 24th, 1839)


Great to have corroborating evidence that "Round the corner, Sally" and "Tally Ho" were shipboard songs of the 1830s! Too bad it is vague, i.e. "in heaving up the Anchor & other work" -- i.e. were these capstan "ditties"? (The "Round the Corner" handed down via Hugill is a halyard chanty, but I am not getting a strong sense of that from these mentions.)

The other correspondence to note is between the 1831 Guyanese rowing song, "Right early in the marning, de neger like the bottley oh!" and this 1839 ship-transmitted "So early in the morning the Sailor loves his bottle oh."


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 09:36 PM

John Minear has added some 1830s references. Here (and following) is more commentary.

Here is a reference to the singing of "Highland Laddie" at the capstan in an effort to move the grounded [United States] ship "Peacock" into deeper water on [September] 22nd, 1835, near the Gulf of Mazeira. [coast of Arabia]

It's from an officer's journal. Here's the passage:

"On Tuesday morn, the 22d, the work of lightening was continued, and we saw, with feelings of regret, one half of our guns cast into the sea. The ship was lightened aloft by sending down the upper spars, and unbending the sails; and, on renewing our efforts, we had the pleasure to find that the ship moved and got into rather deeper water. The moment she began to move, new life was infused into all hands, and the men broke forth in a song and chorus, to which they kept time as they marched round the capstan, or hauled in the hawser by hand.
" ' Heave and she must go,' sang one as a leader in a high key, and all the men answered in chorus, in deep, manly tones ' Ho! cheerly.'
" ' Heave, and she will go.'
"'Ho! cheerly.'
" When she moved more easily, those at the capstan, sang to the tune of the ' Highland Laddie,'
"' I wish I were in New York town,'
    Bonny laddie, Highland laddie,' &c.


The shouts of "heave and go" sound like what Dana and others have described. This is exciting, however, in being the earliest (?) such reference to "Highland Laddie." Notably, the lyric uses the "places round the world" lyrical theme that turns out to be of major importance in chanties. This is a really significant piece of evidence! It foreshadows the appearance of "Highland Laddie " as a cotton-screwing chant. It sounds like they started singing Hieland Laddie once the load got lighter and they were able to shift to a march-like tempo.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:17 PM

(oops, messed up the HTML in my last post.)

In my reading of Dana, from a few days ago, I did not feel confident that what I envision to have been a new class of shipboard work songs (i.e. chanties) had necessarily been adopted (not developed, as per my hypothesis) -- not at least from the evidence of Dana -- in a major way, if at all.

Whereas my hypothesis is that a new paradigm for work-singing -- roughly corresponding to halyard songs, or "chanties," as they came to be known -- was borrowed from African-American practices, I don't feel confident, from these 1830s references, that that borrowing had yet occurred on a large scale. That is, the Afr-American forms existed (rowing, cotton stowing, and fireman's songs), but had yet to be widely incorporated on large sailing vessels.

However, I forgot to acknowledge the two songs mentions which there is some good reason to believe had African-American roots. One is "Round the Corner, Sally," which, as will be seen in later decades, was used by Black Americans for rowing and corn-shucking. There is no proof of where it originated, but, as I said, some good reason to associate it with that culture. The other song is "Grog Time a Day." Thanks to John M.'s critical inquiries and Lighter's scholarship, we know that Dana's original manuscript was supposed to have included "Grog Time of Day" (and not just "Round the Corner," but "Round the Corner, Sally). We have already fairly established "Grog Time" as a song popular through the Caribbean and performed by Blacks. I offer this possible reasoning for why the existence of "Grog Time" does not contradict my earlier interpretation.

"Grog Time" seems to have been widely known across cultures as, perhaps, a popular song in those days. My evidence for this is that a play, TELEMACHUS, OR, THE ISLAND OF CALYPSO (a play, republished in 1879) was first performed in 1834, which gives a stage direction for: "Music – Grog time of day, boys" Set off the coast of "a West India island." It is followed by newly composed lyrics follow. The song's appearance in another fictional work, TAR BRUSH SKETCHES by Benjamin Fiferail, 1836. (FWIW, Lighter says elsewhere, "Given the date, one can probably assume that "Fiferail's" is the song Dana heard. If so, it doesn't seem to have been a one-line, one-pull shanty. I suppose it would have belonged to capstan work.")

So, I argue, "Grog Time" had entered the sphere of "popular music," by then, as opposed to being just a "folk" song that one would only pick up from hearing a "folk" from Culture X singing it. As for "Round the Corner," I don't know. It is mainly Dana's description of the format of these songs, along with some of what he doesn't mention (i.e. whereas otherwise he is very descriptive) that leaves me skeptical that "chanties, proper" had by then a wide spread among seamen.

I don't have the figures at hand -- so please take this with salt for now -- but I seem to remember from the book BLACK JACKS (there are tables/stats in the appendix) that 1820s-1830s were some of the peak years for Blacks in the Euro-American sailing trade. I still think this must have had some bearing on how chanties came to be adopted. However, if the available evidence so far is not showing great influence of African-American songs on the shipboard work-songs, then perhaps either: 1) The idea is overstated or 2) references to the proper contexts are just not available -- In other words, these Black seamen may have brought their musical influence to the (fully rigged) packet ship trade, especially via Gulf Coast ports rather than to Boston-California brigs like Dana's!

I have to check out the since-added 1830s references, now, to see what they add to the picture.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM

With regard to the NA MOTU reference that I posted above, I forgot that there was another reference to "Stormy" on p. 97. Here is what Lighter had in a note that first called this to my attention:

1854 Edward T. Perkins, "Na Motu, or Reef-Rovings in the South Seas" p. 97 [ref. to 1848; Perkins had served on an American whaling ship]:

         I dug his grave with a silver spade;
                O! bullies, O!
       And I lowered him down with a golden chain,
                A hundred years ago!


P. 99: "I jumped onto a rock, swung my tarpaulin, and sung that good old song—

                'O ! storm along !
                O! my roving blades, storm along, stormy!'"


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 07:25 PM

. 'What's more, at the time, Dana is on a larger brig the CATALINA, which one would think "needed" shanties more -- that is, if they were available.,'

Gibb, I may be wrong here but I would have thought the reverse would apply. The larger the ship, the more hands, the less need for shanties. If I remember rightly in the heyday of shantying they came into their own on the clippers and packets notorious for being undermanned.

'yet there was a plenty of room to move about in, more discipline and system, more men, and more good will.'

You may be right, Steve. I missed the part about "more men," though that doesn't necessarily mean that on this brig there was a better ration of men:size than there was on the brig PILGRIM. However, you suggest another idea. If, say, the emergence of such shanties was very closely tied to packets specifically (clippers were not yet existing, as far as I know), then it may be that Dana is not so great a source. Though it is one of the few sources for its time period, it may be that more stuff of interest was going on elsewhere, which we don't see.


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Subject: Lyr Add: TALLY-I-O
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:08 PM

Steve, the retired seaman James Wright sang the following for James W. Carpenter about 1928. The recording is awful and what's in brackets is solely my conjecture:

                              TALLY-I-O

                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!
                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Come tally-I-O, you know!        

                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                We'll tell [?them we're sober] O Tally-O!
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                We'll tell [?them we're sober], O Tally-O!
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

I think I posted this earlier, but it doesn't hurt to reprise it here.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: meself
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 05:00 PM

FYI: I've started a thread on "Chinese Work/Sea Songs/Shanties", inspired by this thread.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 04:56 PM

John
I think the 'Stormy' song is very significant. It obviously refers to 'stowing or screwing' cotton. The important question arises, is it derivative or imitative/parody/burlesque. In my experience almost all of the early minstrel songs were imitative/parody/burlesque rather than derivative. In other words it wasn't an actual song used for stowing cotton, but using perhaps some of the words and referring to some of the tasks done by the slaves. In which case the possibility arises of yet another shanty derived from a minstrel song.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 04:06 PM

Excellent stuff, John.
Do we have any words/tune for 'Tally ho, you know'?


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM

Here is a somewhat similar account from 1844, from Edward Lucett's book ROVINGS IN THE PACIFIC, FROM 1837 TO 1849. The event is recorded for August 19, 1844 at Huaheine, in the South Pacific. Lucett says,

        "I was desirous of procuring the original [words], and took a person well skilled in the language to write them down for me; when, to my great surprise, I discovered that both the words and the air were a beautiful modulation of our sailors' song of "Round the corner, Sally!" (p. 82)

Here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XyQ9oaSfaMwC&pg=PA82&dq=%22Round+the+corner,+Sally%22&lr=&cd=20#v=onepage&q=%22Round%20the%20co


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM

In THE PRIVATE JOURNAL OF WILLIAM REYNOLDS: UNITED STATES EXPLORING EXPEDITION, 1838-1842, by William Reynolds, Nathaniel Philbrick, and Thomas Philbrick, there is mentioned, on page 97 (Penguin Edition), that

        "Many of the girls at Point Venus [Tahiti] have learned the chorus songs common with sailors in heaving up the Anchor & other work...Their voices were good, and the ditties of "So early in the morning the Sailor loves his bottle oh," "Round the corner, Sally," "Tally Ho, you know" & a dozen others were often heard along the beach for half the night." (sometime between September 18th & 24th, 1839)

Here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=4fUTBBP6xRwC&pg=PA97&dq=%22Round+the+corner,+Sally%22&lr=&cd=18#v=onepage&q=%22Round%20the%20co

Two of these songs are also mentioned by Dana: "Round the corner, Sally," and "Tally Ho, you know".


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 10:28 AM

In the 1854 publication of CHRISTY AND WHITE'S ETHIOPIAN MELODIES, in the section entitled WHITES NEW ILLUSTRATED ETHIOPIAN SONG BOOK, there is a version of "Storm along Stormy", as sung by "J. Smith, of White's Serenaders, at the Melodeon." (p. 71) Here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=W2ZCAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA71&dq=%22Storm+along+Stormy%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Storm%20along%20Stormy

According to Google Book Search, Charles White's NEW ETHIOPIAN SONG BOOK was published in 1848.

http://books.google.com/books?id=n6xRQAAACAAJ&dq=White's+New+Illustrated+Ethiopian+Song+Book&source=gbs_book_other_versions

These little booklets went through many publications and re-publications and combinations at that time. I think there is a good chance that this version of "Storm along Stormy" was around in this blackface minstrel version in the late 1840s.

In his original posting of this song to the "From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?" thread, Gibb said, "I am surprised to find this amongst minstrel songs. It would appear that it was taken from the work song repertoire into popular song; usually (I'd guess) it is the other way around."

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=483#2864123


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 09:06 AM

Here is a reference from 1838 to singing "that good old song 'O! storm along!" from NA MOTU: OR, REEF-ROVING IN THE SOUTH SEAS, by Edward T. Perkins, published in 1854.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1zxCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA99&dq=Storm+along+Stormy&lr=&cd=46#v=onepage&q=Storm%20along%20Stormy&f=false


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:08 PM

Gibb,
Have you looked through the old thread currently refreshed 'Origin of sea chanteys'
Look at Barry Finn's post of 25th may 01 at 04.05
particularly the Robert Hay references for the early 1800s. You may have this of course.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:28 PM

. 'What's more, at the time, Dana is on a larger brig the CATALINA, which one would think "needed" shanties more -- that is, if they were available.,'

Gibb, I may be wrong here but I would have thought the reverse would apply. The larger the ship, the more hands, the less need for shanties. If I remember rightly in the heyday of shantying they came into their own on the clippers and packets notorious for being undermanned.

'yet there was a plenty of room to move about in, more discipline and system, more men, and more good will.'


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:38 AM

And here is a reference to the adaptation of "the lively songs sung by seamen when heaving at the capstan" by Society Islanders on the island of Raiatea, which was visited by a whaling vessel on a voyage around the world from 1833 to 1836, recounted by Frederick Debell Bennett in his NARRATIVE OF A WHALING VOYAGE ROUND THE GLOBE, Vol. I (1840).

http://books.google.com/books?id=xo89AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=capstan+songs+1840s&lr=&cd=38#v=onepage&q=&f=false


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:31 AM

Here is a reference to the singing of "Highland Laddie" at the capstan in an effort to move the grounded ship "Peacock" into deeper water on April 22nd, 1835, near the Gulf of Mazeira.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LW_XAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA396&dq=capstan+songs+1840s&lr=&cd=25#v=onepage&q=&f=false


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:07 AM

Here is one more little snippet from Dana, where he mentions "a set of new songs for the capstan and fall" from the crew of the "California".

"The next day, the California commenced unloading her cargo; and her boats' crews, in coming and going, sang their boat-songs, keeping time with their oars. This they did all day long for several days, until their hides were all discharged, when a gang of them were sent on board the Alert, to help us steeve our hides. This was a windfall for us, for they had a set of new songs for the capstan and fall, and ours had got nearly worn out by six weeks' constant use. I have no doubt that this timely reinforcement of songs hastened our work several days."

Here is the Google Books link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dS6jsZLYWNAC&pg=PA336&dq=capstan+songs+1840s&lr=&cd=12#v=onepage&q=&f=false


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:13 PM

"Maringo!"

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:58 PM

Geo-- YES!

I've been being a big bully, however, and trying to keep things confined to up-to-1830s until now.

But let the 1840s now fly!-- Fire away, my Ringo, Mr. Marengo, you dear old Mandingo of my Kingdom! It's cotton-screwing season!


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:44 PM

To finish out what I have for the 1830s, there is the best known source of all, RH Dana's TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST.

Dana shipped as a common sailor in the brig PILGRIM, Aug 1834-Sept1836.

In the various editions of his text, 1840, he mentioned "sailor's songs."

There is a lengthy thread dedicated to Dana's songs HERE

Dana mentioned several songs by name, and also made reference to work-singing generally.

Here are passages.

First is to the elementary "sing-outs:

The wind was whistling through the rigging, loose ropes flying about; loud and, to me, unintelligible orders constantly given and rapidly executed, and the sailors "singing out" at the ropes in their hoarse and peculiar strains.

The following is frustrating because it does not clearly distinguish (for my taste, at least) the songs for capstan versus the ones for hoisting yards. The reference to "falls," one would assume, is to halyards and not just lighter lines that could be handled with "sing outs." This is important because, up to this point, there are actually few references to singing songs at halliards. Dana groups all the songs (without specifying use) under a certain form, a sort of call and response. This is vague because capstan chanties as we know them today do often have that quality, though they are then followed by a grand chorus (not mentioned by Dana). Because he does not mention it does not mean it was not there and, indeed, the "old ditties" from the THE QUID (thanks, Steve) and earlier are not what one would usually call a call and response type song (i.e. though they may have a soloist followed by chorus). Also, the short "sweating up" chants could also fall under Dana's description, and they are different from later halliard chanties. My opinion is that, given what else we know from the time period, the halliard songs he would have been describing were like "Cheerly Man". A single pull coincides with the chorus' "response," and the form of the "verses" does not have the sane verse form that most halliard chanties have. It sounds to me like Dana is still describing the old-style capstan songs and an old-ER kind of song for halliards, however, that is my interpretation only. Again, it is frustrating because, for example, he names a song with "heave" in the title, but he refers to pulling. Perhaps this is not just negligence; maybe the functions of the songs did not become so clearly demarcated yet. Here's the passage:

The sailor's songs for capstans and falls are of a peculiar kind, having a chorus at the end of each line. The burden is usually sung, by one alone, and, at the chorus, all hands join in,—and the louder the noise, the better. With us, the chorus seemed almost to raise the decks of the ship, and might be heard at a great distance, ashore. A song is as necessary to sailors as the drum and fife to a soldier. They can't pull in time, or pull with a will, without it. Many a time, when a thing goes heavy, with one fellow yo-ho-ing, a lively song, like "Heave, to the girls!" "Nancy oh!" "Jack Cross-tree," etc., has put life and strength into every arm. We often found a great difference in the effect of the different songs in driving in the hides. Two or three songs would be tried, one after the other; with no effect;—not an inch could be got upon the tackles—when a new song, struck up, seemed to hit the humor of the moment, and drove the tackles "two blocks" at once. "Heave round hearty!" "Captain gone ashore!" and the like, might do for common pulls, but in an emergency, when we wanted a heavy, "raise-the-dead" pull, which should start the beams of the ship, there was nothing like "Time for us to go!" "Round the corner," or "Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"

Significantly, Dana talks about how important all this singing and chanting was by that time.

The next passage makes clear that they were using the spoke windlass (cf. the pump windlass that, a couple years later, came into use of Marryat's vessel). It doesn't sound like they were using songs, just shouts of encouragement there. If they had a windlass for the anchor. And with "Cheerly Men" being used to cat anchor, it confirms the sense of its form that we have today: a sort of jazzed up equivalent to what was basically "one, two, three, PULL!" (i.e. not the same as later halyard chanteys).

Where things are "done with a will," every one is like a cat aloft: sails are loosed in an instant; each one lays out his strength on his handspike, and the windlass goes briskly round with the loud cry of "Yo heave ho! Heave and pawl! Heave hearty ho!" But with us, at this time, it was all dragging work. No one went aloft beyond his ordinary gait, and the chain came slowly in over the windlass. The mate, between the knight-heads, exhausted all his official rhetoric, in calls of "Heave with a will!"—"Heave hearty, men!—heave hearty!"—"Heave and raise the dead!"—"Heave, and away!" etc., etc.; but it would not do. Nobody broke his back or his hand-spike by his efforts. And when the cat-tackle-fall was strung along, and all hands—cook, steward, and all—laid hold, to cat the anchor, instead of the lively song of "Cheerily, men!" in which all hands join in the chorus, we pulled a long, heavy, silent pull, and—as sailors say a song is as good as ten men—the anchor came to the cat-head pretty slowly. "Give us 'Cheerily!'" said the mate; but there was no "cheerily" for us, and we did without it. The captain walked the quarterdeck, and said not a word. He must have seen the change, but there was nothing which he could notice officially.

Work songs of Hawai'ians are there, too. It seems as though the singing of "Mahannah" was a novel scenario that juxtaposed two cultures' practices. In any case, the reference is to singing-out at the windlass, not to songs, per se.

At twelve o'clock the Ayacucho dropped her fore topsail, which was a signal for her sailing. She unmoored and warped down into the bight, from which she got under way. During this operation, her crew were a long time heaving at the windlass, and I listened for nearly an hour to the musical notes of a Sandwich Islander, called Mahannah, who "sang out" for them. Sailors, when heaving at a windlass, in order that they may heave together, always have one to sing out; which is done in a peculiar, high and long-drawn note, varying with the motion of the windlass. This requires a high voice, strong lungs, and much practice, to be done well. This fellow had a very peculiar, wild sort of note, breaking occasionally into a falsetto. The sailors thought it was too high, and not enough of the boatswain hoarseness about it; but to me it had a great charm. The harbor was perfectly still, and his voice rang among the hills, as though it could have been heard for miles.

In lieu of Dana's early characterization of singing as fairly ubiquitous, this next passage is puzzling. If, as we have seen, African-Americans just did not row without a song...and if he is claiming that "Americans" rarely did so...is it possible to infer that the hypothetical African-American influence on shipboard worksongs had not yet occurred? I think this passage is particularly significant.

The Italian ship had a crew of thirty men; nearly three times as many as the Alert, which was afterwards on the coast, and was of the same size; yet the Alert would get under weigh and come-to in half the time, and get two anchors, while they were all talking at once—jabbering like a parcel of "Yahoos," and running about decks to find their cat-block.

There was only one point in which they had the advantage over us, and that was in lightening their labors in the boats by their songs. The Americans are a time and money saving people, but have not yet, as a nation, learned that music may be "turned to account." We pulled the long distances to and from the shore, with our loaded boats, without a word spoken, and with discontented looks, while they not only lightened the labor of rowing, but actually made it pleasant and cheerful, by their music.


I think this final passage is significant for its *lack* of mention of any chanteying besides the old standard "Cheerly men". What's more, at the time, Dana is on a larger brig the CATALINA, which one would think "needed" shanties more -- that is, if they were available.

and, this morning, preparations were made for getting under weigh. We paid out on the chain by which we swung; hove in on the other; catted the anchor; and hove short on the first. This work was done in shorter time than was usual on board the brig; for though everything was more than twice as large and heavy, the cat-block being as much as a man could lift, and the chain as large as three of the Pilgrim's, yet there was a plenty of room to move about in, more discipline and system, more men, and more good will. Every one seemed ambitious to do his best: officers and men knew their duty, and all went well. As soon as she was hove short, the mate, on the forecastle, gave the order to loose the sails, and, in an instant, every one sprung into the rigging, up the shrouds, and out on the yards, scrambling by one another,—the first up the best fellow,—cast off the yard-arm gaskets and bunt gaskets, and one man remained on each yard, holding the bunt jigger with a turn round the tye, all ready to let go, while the rest laid down to man the sheets and halyards. The mate then hailed the yards—"All ready forward?"—"All ready the cross-jack yards?" etc., etc., and "Aye, aye, sir!" being returned from each, the word was given to let go; and in the twinkling of an eye, the ship, which had shown nothing but her bare yards, was covered with her loose canvas, from the royal-mast-heads to the decks. Every one then laid down, except one man in each top, to overhaul the rigging, and the topsails were hoisted and sheeted home; all three yards going to the mast-head at once, the larboard watch hoisting the fore, the starboard watch the main, and five light hands, (of whom I was one,) picked from the two watches, the mizen. The yards were then trimmed, the anchor weighed, the cat-block hooked on, the fall stretched out, manned by "all hands and the cook," and the anchor brought to the head with "cheerily men!" in full chorus.

I'm of the present opinion that the chanteying in Dana's experience was yet of the older sort. I think "Cheerly Man" belonged to that world, and was probably not cut from the cloth of African-American work-songs. With Marryat a few years later --and the pump windlass-- there is possibly a newer kind of chantey. On the other hand, the form of that particular version of a "Sally Brown" is not far from Cheerly Man.

Whereas my hypothesis is that a new paradigm for work-singing -- roughly corresponding to halyard songs, or "chanties," as they came to be known -- was borrowed from African-American practices, I don't feel confident, from these 1830s references, that that borrowing had yet occurred on a large scale. That is, the Afr-American forms existed (rowing, cotton stowing, and fireman's songs), but had yet to be widely incorporated on large sailing vessels.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 05:50 PM

Here are a few references to rowing songs down in Brazil somewhat in the general time frame. I've not had a chance to follow up on any of them.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Om1tx6ZR0hYC&pg=PA49&dq=rowing+songs+1840s&cd=5#v=onepage&q=rowing%20songs%201840s&f=false


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM

Here is an account from 1852 of a voyage from San Francisco to New York by way of Panama and Jamaica. While in Jamaica, the ship took on a load of coal in Kingston. There is a description of about 50 men and women carrying coal in tubs on their heads and marching back and forth to load the ship and singing "an old plantation song" the whole time. It is the last paragraph just above the heading "Again on the deep":

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/newsucr/cgi-bin/newsucr?a=d&cl=search&d=SDU18921020.2.28&srpos=11&e=-------en-logical-20--1-byDA---capstan+s


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 04:33 PM

Gibb,
Think there is any connection between: here is another early reference, that can be dated as December 31,1838. Phillip Henry Gosse, in his LETTERS FROM ALABAMA (1859), also mentions the cotton-screwing shanty, "Fire the ringo" (page 305-306,at the very end of his book):
and: "Fire Maringo"?
Keep up the good work!
Cheers,
Geo


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 03:39 PM

Gibb,
Re the Doerflinger reference, I think the use of the phrase 'old ditties' is descriptive enough. I think Doerflinger was clutching at straws. I don't think the East India Company would have been your average merchant vessel, more like RN, being described complete with fiddler. No mention of any sort of worksong!


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

A lot of trad tunes that went into odd notes were often called 'Chinese' for similar reasons


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:35 PM

Also, another word they could easily have used for hypothetically modal or bluesy melodies was "indescribable."


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:58 AM

I'm familiar with the comment, but I believe that the idea that trained musicians were unfamiliar with modal scales in Sharp's day is nonsense. Maybe the commentator meant that many couldn't identify them by name if asked.

My understanding is that trained musicians knew exactly what "modal" meant and more or less what the scales sounded like from the study of music history, but thought they were "primitive" and thus largely unsuitable for "modern" music.

But the question is relatively moot. There are few modal shanties.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:46 AM

Here is a selection of cotton loading and boat rowing songs (I think), with music, that I haven't come across before now. It's in a piece from 1918, in a larger collection called JAZZ IN PRINT (1856-1929): AN ANTHOLOGY OF SELECTED EARLY READINGS IN JAZZ, by Karl Koenig (2002). The songs seem earlier.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sol334hPuRoC&pg=PA125&dq=cotton+loading+songs&lr=&cd=25#v=onepage&q=cotton%20loading%20songs&f=

It does introduce a genre of songs we haven't really looked at but which are also "call/response" songs, namely religious songs. The author of this article says, "the songs the Negro seems to prefer while working are the religious ones."


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: doc.tom
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:24 AM

Apropos describing scales:
An untrained ear would not have had an appropriate language to describe out-of-the-ordinary scales - modal, blue, un-tempered or variable - their ear would only have understood the 'normal' contemporary major/minor 'classical' tempered structures which transfered into the likes of Santy Anna, Dixie, etc. Even trained musicians had problems - one classically trained musician reportedly said to Cecil Sharp "I simply do not believe that a peasant singer can sing in the Dorian mode when most musicians don't even know what it is." (!)
TomB


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:10 PM

The famous (i.e. due to being cited by Doerflinger as his earliest chantey reference) passage in THE QUID (1832), containing observations of a passenger in an East India Company ship, is as follows:

//

All who have been on board ship must recollect heaving at the capstan. It is one of the many soul-stirring scenes that occur on board when all hands are turned up; the motley group that man the bars, the fiddler stuck in a corner, the captain on the poop encouraging the men to those desperate efforts that seem, to the novice, an attempt at pulling up the rocks by the root. It's a time of equality; idlers, stewards and servants, barbers and sweepers, cooks' mates and cooks-mate's ministers, doctors' mates, and loblolly boys; every man runs the same road, and hard and impenetrable is that soul that does not chime in with the old ditties, "Pull away now, my Nancy, O!" and the long "Oh!" that precedes the more musical strain of

"Oh her love is a sailor,
His name is Jemmy Taylor,
He's gone in a whaler,
To the Greenland sea:"

or

"Oh! if I had her,
Eh then if I had her,
Oh! how I could love her,
Black although she be."

//

The fiddle player is notable. The singing appears to be "for fun."


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM

So much for rowing, cotton stowing, and firemen's songs of the 1830s (i.e. that I've turned up so far). Now to the shipboard work-songs attributed to that time.

These references are well know, so I will try to be brief.

Here is John M.'s intro to Marryat's text

*snip

April 3, 1837, the ship "Quebec" hoisted her anchor
in the harbor at Portmouth and sailed to New York. At the [windlass] the
crew sang "Sally Brown", according to an eye-witness, Captain Marryat,
a passenger, who recorded the words and the ongoing dialog in his book
A DIARY IN AMERICA, p.38-44.

*snip*

The crew were working at a pump windlass. Dobinson's invention had just been patented in 1832!

patent

I don't know if that was just an "improvement" or if it was *the* new pump style windlass altogether; from Marryat's surprise, it sounds like the latter. The earlier spoke windlass, pictured in the Moby Dick clip up-thread, is the one that required removing and replacing of handspikes into slots after each turn. The pump windlass chanteys tend to be akin to halyard chanties.

Here's the extended passage:

//
10, A. M.—" All hands up anchor." I was repeating to myself some of the stanzas of Mrs. Norton's " Here's a Health to the Outward-bound," when I cast my eyes forward I could not imagine what the seamen were about; they appeared to be pumping, instead of heaving, at the windlass. I forced my way through the heterogeneous mixture of human beings, animals, and baggage which crowded the decks, and discovered that they were working a patent windlass, by Dobbinson—a very ingenious and superior invention. The seamen, as usual, lightened their labour with the song and chorus, forbidden by the etiquette of a man-of-war. The one they sung was peculiarly musical, although not refined ; and the chorus of "Oh! Sally Brown," was given with great emphasis by the whole crew between every line of the song, sung by an athletic young third mate. I took my seat on the knight-heads—turned my face aft— looked and listened.

" Heave away there, forward."
" Aye, aye, sir."
" ' Sally Brown—oh! my dear Sally."' (Single voice),
" ' Oh ! Sally Brown.'" (Chorus)
" ' Sally Brown, of Buble Al-ly.'" (Single voice).
" ' Oh ! Sal-ly Brown.'" (Chorus).
" Avast heaving there; send all aft to clear the boat."
" Aye, aye, sir. Where are we to stow these casks, Mr. Fisher ?"
" Stow them ! Heaven knows ; get them in, at all events."
" Captain H.! Captain H. ! there's my piano still on deck; it will be quite spoiled—indeed it will."
" Don't be alarmed, ma'am ; as soon as we're under weigh we'll hoist the cow up, and get the piano down."
" What! under the cow? "
" No, ma'am; but the cow's over the hatchway."
" Now, then, my lads, forward to the windlass."
" ' I went to town to get some toddy-' "
"' Oh! Sally Brown."
" ' T'wasn't fit for any body.' "
" ' Oh ! Sally Brown.' "—
" Out there, and clear away the jib."
" Aye, aye, sir."
" Mr. Fisher, how much cable is there out ?"
" Plenty yet, sir.—Heave away, my lads.'"
"' Sally is a bright mulattar.'"
" ' Oh ! Sally Brown.' "
" ' Pretty girl, but can't get at her.' "
" ' Oh! '"—
" Avast heaving; send the men aft to whip the ladies in.—Now, miss, only sit down and don't be afraid, and you'll be in, in no time.— Whip away, my lads, handsomely ; steady her -with the guy; lower away.—There, miss, now you're safely landed."
" Landed am I ? I thought I was shipped.«' " Very good, indeed—very good, miss ; you'll make an excellent sailor, I see."
" I should make a better sailor's wife, I expect, Captain H."
"Excellent! Allow me to hand you aft; you'll excuse me.—Forward now, my men ; heave away !"
" ' Seven years I courted Sally.'"
" ' Oh! Sally Brown.'"
" ' Seven more of shilley-shally.'"
"'Oh! Sally Brown.'"
" ' She won't wed "—
" Avast heaving. Up there, and loose the topsails ; stretch along the topsail-sheets.—Upon my soul, half these children will be killed.— Whose child are you ?"
" I—don't—know."
" Go and find out, that's a dear.—Let fall ; sheet home; belay starboard sheet; clap on the larboard; belay all that.—Now, then, Mr. Fisher."
" Aye, aye, sir.—Heave away, my lads."
" ' She won't wed a Yankee sailor.'"
"'Oh! Sally Brown.'"
For she's in love with the nigger tailor."_
"'Oh! Sally Brown.'"—
" Heave away, my men ; heave, and in sight. Hurrah ! my lads."
" ' Sally Brown—oh ! my dear Sally !'"
"' Oh! Sally Brown!'"
" ' Sally Brown, of Buble Alley.'"
" 'Oh! Sally Brown."'
" ' Sally has a cross old granny.'"
" Oh ! ' "—
" Heave and fall—jib-halyards—hoist away." " Oh! dear—oh! dear." " The clumsy brute has half-killed the girl! —Don't cry, my dear.''...

//

Note that this "Sally Brown" has the simple call-response-call-response form of a halyard chantey. No "chorus" was needed, though what I call a "mock chorus" (having the same structure as the rest of the song) could be there for this job (it's not in this case).


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM

It looks like the current learned opinion is that
"blues scale(s)" are an African-American innovation. Acc. to James Lincoln Collier in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, 2nd ed.:

"[West African music] used scales roughly similar to European ones, but they tended to be pentatonic and seem to have avoided half-steps, either by skipping over them or by the raising or lowering of one of the pitches to widen the interval; pitches were frequently inexact by the standards of European music....

"[J]ust as some African tribal musicians seem to have avoided half-steps, so the slaves tended to adjust the diatonic scale to similar effect by lowering the third, seventh, and sometimes fifth scale degrees microtonally, thereby creating the so-called blue note...."

I assume this means that nobody found blue notes in Africa before the advent of commercial blues-playing radio. That would have been well into the anthropologically sophisticated 20th C., so if nobody noticed them it would be strong, though not conclusive, evidence for an American origin.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:45 PM

re: Blues scale

Sorry, I don't know. I am sure someone had written about its "history." My hunch is that that history would have been established in exactly the way you and I are doing -- i.e., in the absence of recordings and adequate notations, by going by the descriptions of observers.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:42 PM

Mention of the singing of cotton-stowers/screwers occured in Savannah the 20s, above. Now in the 30s, we get an actual lyric.

John M.'s intro:

*snip*

And here is another early reference, that can be dated as December
31,1838. Phillip Henry Gosse, in his LETTERS FROM ALABAMA (1859), also
mentions the cotton-screwing shanty, "Fire the ringo" (page 305-306,
at the very end of his book):

*snip*

On the Alabama River, here is the passage:

I have been amused by observing the crew stowing the cargo. After what I said of the way in which the cotton is screwed into the bales, you would suppose that these were incapable of further compression. But it is not so. When the stowed bales in the hold are in contact with the upper deck, another layer has to be forced in. This is effected, bale by bale, by powerful jack-screws, worked by four men. When you see the end of the bale set against a crevice, into which you could scarcely push a thin board, you think it impossible that it can ever get in; and, indeed, the operation is very slow, but the screw is continually turned, and the bale does gradually insinuate itself.

The men keep the most perfect time by means of their songs. These ditties, though nearly meaningless, have much music in them, and as all join in the perpetually recurring chorus, a rough harmony is produced, by no means unpleasing. I think the leader improvises the words, of which the following is a specimen; he singing one line alone, and the whole then giving the chorus, which is repeated without change at every line, till the general chorus concludes the stanza:—

"I think I hear the black cock say,
    Fire the ringo, fire away !
They shot so hard, I could not stay;
    Fire the ringo ! fire away !
So I spread my wings, and flew away;
    Fire the ringo ! &c.
I took my flight and ran away ;
    Fire, &c.
All the way to Canaday;
    Fire, &c.
To Canaday, to Canaday,
    Fire, &c.
All the way to Canaday.
    Ringo ! ringo ! blaze away!
   Fire the ringo ! fire away!"

Sometimes the poet varied the subject by substituting political for zoological allusions. The victory over the British at New Orleans — that favourite theme with all Americans—was chosen. Thus:—

" Gin'ral Jackson gain'd the day ;
   Fire the ringo, &c.
At New Orleans he won the day;
    Fire the ringo, fire away!"

I wonder about the possible relationship between the cotton-screwing chants and the steamboat stoker's "chaunt" -- the chorus of "FIRE", on the proper beat, being the connecting feature.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:32 PM

Another one of my posts didn't make it through the ether. To sum it up:

"Minor" is more likely to entail "plaintive" than "plaintive" is to entail "minor." "Plaintive," at least as I understand it, could cover minor, modal, and (hypothetically) blusey.

Guesswork: an early 19th C. writer hearing a blues scale and perceiving it as systematic rather than accidental (i.e., sung by someone with a tin ear) would have used words like "weird," "wild," or "savage" to describe it. Otherwise the words would be more like "out of tune," "off-pitch," "flat," "discordant," etc. ISTR "wild" being used in at least one description, though I suppose it could just as easily refer to timing as to tonality.

How far back does the blues scale go? Did it originate in Africa before 1800? Or do we know?


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:06 PM

Lighter, the SERVICE AFLOAT reference uses "minor." I swear there are more, but I don't want to look for them, right now. In any case, I have been reading "minor" as some interpretation of listeners who aren't sure where to "file" the blue notes. They are between "major" and "minor," and I figure that, like when one does when he hears a phoneme contrast that doesn't exist in his own language, he files it as one with which he is familiar. I don't think 19th century writers had a clue how to file in "blue notes." The author from 1908, above, shows the beginnings of at least recognizing something that is to be considered on its own. If memory serves, Arnold, in Bullen's collection of 1914, also begins to take "note" of this tonality!

"Plaintive" suggests "minor" to me, even if they are not using the latter word. And I find that at odds with the fact that very few chanties as they have come down to us today are in minor modes. One possible explanation is that, again writers did not have a category for blue notes, and they just notated the songs as if they were in major modes (I realize this contradicts what I just said about "filing as minor," but I think there are different issues between notating and the lay-observers descriptions.) Or, possibly, when such songs were adopted by White sailors, the "blue note" tonality was not maintained; they became tunes in major.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 08:55 PM

Those are my rowing songs for 1830s. Now, some firemen's songs from that decade. I am not sure of the exact nature of work of the (mainly Black) "firemen" on river steamboats. Were they shoveling in coal, as on a locomotive? Was it logs they threw into a furnace, down below? More info, please! Whatever the case, the environment evokes the phrase, "Fire down below."

THE RAMBLER IN NORTH AMERICA, 1832-1833, Vol 2., by CJ Latrobe, 1835.

Of a steamboat on the Ohio River, mentions "the wild song of the negro fire-men." (pg 281).

Next, a dramatic scene in BENTLEY'S MISCELLANY, vol 4, New York, Sept. 1839,
taking place in a steamboat. Here's the song.

"THE STOKER'S CHAUNT.
The ebben tide ib floating past,
Fire down below!
The arrival time ib coming fast.
Fire down below!
Racoon cry in de maple tree,
Fire down below!
The wood ib on fire, and the fire a sea,
Fire down below!
Oo a oo oh ! fire down below!"

A chaunty? It appears to be related to a "fire down below" chantey that will continue to appear in the 19th century. Here is a rendition of the chantey as culled by Hugill, if one would like to fit the above lyrics to the framework:

The Sailor Fireman

Incidentally, Hugill cited it as a possible source for the melody to the chantey "Sacramento."


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 08:40 PM

Interesting that although the writers like to use words like "plaintive," none seems to choose the words "minor" (or even "modal"). Once again, this may be an artifact of too few accounts, but it is certainly more consistent with Gibb's idea that "blue" notes were used rather than not. If some later shanty tunes are considered (I'm thinking of one or two of the "Sally Brown" tunes), the early writers could have meant "modal," but my guess is that musical education in the early 19th C. at least mentioned that modes existed or "used to" exist. Maybe a musicologist knows more about that likelihood.

If we had a hundred characterizations instead of just a handful, we might be able to draw a sounder conclusion.

OTOH, if the "blues" scale really is an African importation (is it for sure?), it would be perverse of African-descended rowers not to use it two hundred years ago.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 08:20 PM

From the Memoirs of Elkanah Watson, pub. 1856. The author relates a scene from 1777 (!) in South Carolina.

As evening closed in, we embarked in a good ferry-boat, manned by four jolly, well-fed negroes, to cross Winyaw Bay, a distance of four miles. The evening was serene, the stars shone brightly, and the poor fellows amused us, the whole way, by singing their plaintive African songs, in cadence with the oars. We reached Georgetown in the evening.

"plaintive" again :)

Anyway, this is interesting to note how at the earlier date they were "African" songs (presumably not in English language?). See upthread for Pinckard's 1790s expedition and the rowing song chorus that had seemingly African-dialect words mixed with English. Later it is all English. What I'm hoping to establish is the idea that the style of rowing songs current in parts of West Africa was maintained among African-American rowers in the New World. All this is by way of setting up ONE ASPECT of the work-song context from which "chanties" may have emerged: distinctly African-styled practice of singing while rowing. This is not to say that the melodies, for example, were necessarily maintained "from Africa," but that the paradigm and form persisted.


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Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM

Another 1830s rowing song. I am taking the liberty of copying this from Lighter's post elsewhere on Mudcat.

*SNIP*

Not quite "Sally Brown," but sung by slave boatmen while rowing on the
Cape Fear River in North Carolina and written down (with a very simple
tune) in 1830. From David S. Cecelski, "The Waterman's Song" (2001):

Sally was a fine girl, ho! Sally, ho!
Sally was a fine girl, ho! Sally, ho!

The "collector," Moses A. Curtis, noted: "repeated ad infinitum and
accompanied by a trumpet obligato by the helmsman."

*SNIP*


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