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BS: Obama a Big Disappointment...
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Subject: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 30 Nov 10 - 09:54 PM Well, ol' hillbilly has ridden down Obama Road probably longer than I should have and time to get off... Obama has not thrown one bone to the progressive/left side of divide but continued with his "Can't we all get along" presidency with little regard for those4 on the left he will need if he is to get re-elected in 2 years... That won't do... So, until (if ever) I see some movement then looks like I'm back to the Green Party, what's left (no pun intended) of it or just sittin' Boss Hog's ballgame, i.e. elections, out... I am very disappointed that Obama ain't got 1/100th of the political balls as he has playin' basketball... I'm like that woman who stood up at a town hall and said, "Mr. President, I'm tired of defending you"... Know that feeling... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Rapparee Date: 30 Nov 10 - 10:19 PM Oh, I dunno. But I do know that until we all get over this notion of "My way's the only way, and screw you and your way!" we ain't goin' nowhere but down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,mark-s(on the road) Date: 30 Nov 10 - 10:58 PM Well........Maybe we can see some executive orders coming forth, now that legislation got tougher. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 30 Nov 10 - 11:59 PM Hold on, Bobert, Things may yet improve for progressives--and for an unexpected reason. I would think it quite likely that this summer Obama will say he's pulling the plug on US military Afghanistan involvement. He has all sorts of reasons to do this--starting with the way Karzai is trying to micromanage the war. We've already heard that Petraeus, for instance, is not happy with this. But Obama's main declared reason can be, of all things, the budget deficit. I recently saw a list of proposed cuts by the Cato Institute. They include saving about $125 billion next year by drastically cutting back our Afghanistan military involvement. The Tea Party, which also claims to be hot and heavy on deficits, also shows indications of supporting an Afghanistan pullout---Ron Paul, for one, has mentioned this. If people both on the Right and on the Left push to cut Afghanistan involvement, it will happen. It could also have the added benefit of causing a civil war on the Republican side--with Palin et al on one side and the Cato Institute and at least part of the Tea Party group on the other. And obviously the more bloody primaries on the Republican side, the better for President Obama. What you want is for people on the other side to be bitter and discouraged enough to stay home on Election Day. It could possibly at least start to balance a stubbornly depressed economy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:05 AM The scenario would be: Obama says; "I said I would give the Afghanistan war a chance, even with a (modified) surge. It has not worked out. Even the Afghans are not happy with their own government--nor are we, because of the attempted micromanaging." ""We've given it our best shot. But now our deficit has to take priority. Both Democrats and Republicans realize this. We need to cut our Afghan involvement drastically--and put that money towards addressing the deficit." Obviously he would use his own words--nowhere near as blunt as mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:43 AM Obama is our Ajax Cleanser president. He shook out blue, but turned red. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Thompson Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:47 AM He is disappointing. He was so inspiring when he was running for office, and since he's been in, he's caved to the interests of politicians instead of bringing them along with him and inspiring them to change, to bring America back to the ideals of its foundation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:03 AM Well, this happens inevitably with presidents, it's happened before, and it will keep happening...because presidents don't work for you. They work for the people who fund their campaigns and who lobby the Congress. Those people are few in number, they're very, very rich, they own major corporations and banks, and you are not going to ever meet them or in most cases ever even know their names. The job of a candidate IS to inspire you while he's running for office...so you will get out and vote for him. It's a sales pitch. Obama's campaign was about the most brilliant example of that which I have seen in my lifetime...it was an absolutely super sales job. People bought it. Now you are faced with the actual merchandise, and it doesn't match up very well at all with the sales pitch! Well....gosh....WHAT a surprise...!!! (extreme sarcasm) It should not really surprise anyone that this has happened. Sales is all about creating false expectations in people's minds. They believe whatever they want to believe, and you tell them whatever they want to hear. That's how it works. Then they elect you. Then it's right back to business as usual...for the ruling system and the ruling class. Just like it was in Czarist Russia or Victorian England or any other entrenched power structure. The wealthy power elite rules. The rest of you get frustrated and angry and stay poor. The game goes on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,kendall Date: 01 Dec 10 - 07:48 AM LH, it never happened with Truman. Someone yelled, "Give 'em hell, Harry" and he replied, "I don't give them hell, I tell them the truth and they think it's hell." For the good of the country Obama should step down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Greg F. Date: 01 Dec 10 - 08:03 AM And be replaced by...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 01 Dec 10 - 08:22 AM Actually, Bill Clinton was purdy savvy and knew the battles he could win... That's the problem with Obama... He doesn't understand those battles so he doesn't fight... Giving a great speech ain't squat... It's talkin' the talk... But it ain't walkin' the walk... The tax cuts issue is a perfect example... The Repubs have boxed themselves into a corner and Obama ain't even aware enough to see it and therefore is willing to extend tax cuts when he doesn't have to... Bill Clinton would have known that... Harry Truman would have know that... Shoot, Donald Duck would have known that... Yet Obama plays the "Can't we all get along" shuffle when he should be playin' some Steve Earle or Bruce Springsteen song... I've had enough capitulation and negotiating with people on the wrong side of issues... Grow some balls, Obama!!! BG~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 01 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM Hold on, Bobert et al. He knows people left of center are disappointed in him, and that he desperately needs them. And he will do something about it---I've already given the most likely response. (By the way, don't expect the end of DADT--that he cannot and will not do. That has to be done either by the courts or by Congress--neither of which he controls--as you know, he has even less clout now in Congress than before the midterms.) And "for the good of the country he should step down." C'mon--sorry, that makes no sense at all. That will just guarantee internecine warfare--and a series of very bloody primaries--on the Democratic side. What you want--and may well get, if Obama does what I suggest above--is civil war among the Republicans. Mudcatters need to reread Neustadt: the power to persuade is by far the top power of the president. But he has to use his political capital sensibly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,cs Date: 01 Dec 10 - 08:53 AM "Grow some balls, Obama!!!" What unilateral POWERS do US presidents actually possess? Isn't the president more or less just a figurehead unless he gets major backing elsewhere in the system? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 01 Dec 10 - 09:04 AM And, by the way, every president disappoints at least some of his original supporters. Bush is still being lambasted by the Right for the prescription drug extension he pushed successfully--and, as you may know, he's out of office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: artbrooks Date: 01 Dec 10 - 09:27 AM Well, he pretty much ran in the center...maybe slightly center-left...with a very obvious bias toward consensus management. It shouldn't really surprise anyone that he wants to govern the same way. Clearly, he underestimated the amount of hatred out there, and the ability of the Republicans to stall. On the other hand, he did accomplish a lot in two years - some of it even with Republican support! There are a lot of lists of successes out there (Google "Obama accomplishments"), and I won't try to enumerate them here. This article may be of interest - well written and pretty non-partisan, but somewhat long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 01 Dec 10 - 09:38 AM Actually, a strong president has alot of power... Call it the bully pulpit or whatever you want but Obama ain't even fightin'... As for left of center??? Since when was fiscal responsibility all that left??? The Bush tax cuts, we were told at the time, were to stimulate the economy... Well, they ain't workin'... The rich are putting them extra dollars under their mattresses... How's that stimulating the economy by removing dollars from the economy??? No stimulation there... Just greed... No jobs... I mean, nada, zip, zero jobs are created with idle money... That ain't stimulation... That is bad and irresponsible fiscal policy... That ain't a leftest position... That is basic economics... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Rapparee Date: 01 Dec 10 - 10:17 AM 1. Should Obama resign, Biden becomes President. See the Nixon/Ford succession. 2. If the total costs for manufacturing a product in the US is $25 (labor, shipping, materials, light, heat, percentage of factory construction, etc.) and $17.50 to make it in China or Vietnam, where do you think it's going to be made? 3. Since the Unions were castrated by Reagan, who's working for the workers? 4. As long as the people fall for "Divide and Conquer" tactics (e.g., DADT, health care costs) there will be NO "grass-roots" tsunami of anything except disgust. 5. Until ALL politicians overcome their childish greed -- for money, for power, for a "place in history" -- ain't nothin' gonna happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 01 Dec 10 - 11:45 AM I seem to be having difficulty understanding Americans. 1) You `elect` an idiot. 2) Elect him again. 3) He drags your country--and much of the world--into massive debt, although it seems his friends have always done all right. 4) Elect a new guy and expect him to clean up the freakin` mess left by eight years of bad government in two years. Seems reasonable. HUH! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:00 PM Wal, Peace, some folks have a harder time being rational than some other folks, I guess... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:19 PM You only get a chance to change the system once in a lifetime. Capitalism has fucked up big style....we in the USA and UK are expected to pay for the rebuilding programme...the poor and the middle class, in taxation AND loss of public services. It is immaterial WHO is elected, be it as President or Prime minister, we still have to pay the price to reset the system. The financial shenanigans of the last few years should have made the nature of capitalism obvious to everyone....there is no longer any excuse, including ignorance We are being used and lied to...not by Mr Obama or Mr Cleggeron, but by the whole political class. Wake up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM I agree about capitalism, Ake. But then, any system that exploits people without mercy is flawed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: kendall Date: 01 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM Obama should step down BEFORE the next election to prevent some nit wit like Sara from getting the job. Biden would have to survive an election and I doubt he could. If you add his IQ and Sara's IQ together, it would not exceed room temperature. Does anyone but me see the collapse of civilization in our lifetime? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 01 Dec 10 - 01:09 PM Obama doesn't run America. He never did. It's just taken us a while to realise the true horror of the situation. He hasn't quite surrendered yet, as Stephen Harper has, on Youtube, but no doubt it's coming to a screen near you shortly.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM Sweeping generalizations like "capitalism" do not point in any direction of improvement. Obama is fighting for regulations on the untrammeled greed-mongers, protection for the vulnerable and international stability all at once, and he has been doing so against heavy odds including his legacy from Bush and the most psycho gang of destructive caterwauling seen in this country since Fort Sumter. And no, I do not see the collapse of civilization in our life time, I see a miasma of media-inflated fear-mongering and nutsiness disguising both the best and the worst of facts. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: katlaughing Date: 01 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM Jeepers, Kendall! Anyone here have a magic wand? If ya do, maybe you could wave it and presto, chango! Do what you all seem to expect PRESIDENT Obama should have done in less than two years. As, 999/Bruce pointed out, high expectations, and now you all want to jump ship or make HIM walk the plank? You are all giving into the fear-mongering...THAT is what will do things in. TRY stepping over to the positive and imagine some good combating all the fear-mongering crap. A good way to start that is to turn off the god-damned news which most of it is not. No, I don't like some of the things PRESIDENT Obama hasn't done, but when I look at www.whatthefuckhasobamadoneforme.com, I am a LOT happier than you folks seem to be and especially compared to the previous idiot's eight years in office. Take a chill pill and buck up. The GOP is in a meltdown, there is no way "Scary Saray" is going to be anywhere near running, let alone winning in the next election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM You miss the point Amos, our respective countries have "outgrown" capitalism. Fighting the "untrammeled greed mongers" is not going to improve the lot of the poor. Capitalism depends on the "untrammeled greed mongers" to provide the growth required to keep the show on the road without starvation and rioting.....this is a fact of political life. We are completely in the control of the system. We are now uncompetitive compared with the East, we can no longer work our way out of trouble, unless we are prepared to accept the standards of Indian or Chinese workers......thats where the clever money is going, as an exploitative comodity we are no longer worth the bother.......but there are still parasitic corporations which will feed on us, once we give them our savings and pensions to set up another mythical boom. Obama himself must understand what is happening, but if he really cared for the US people he would be raging against a political system which perpetuates the lie that greed can be banished and any sort of equality can evolve within it. But even if Obama was a radical his cause would be hopeless the two party divisivness is too entrenched. America beneath the shit stands for freedom and liberty, not a future as Bruce says "based on exploitation"....by the corporations OR the state. Time to break the mould. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:11 PM As for Harry Truman being the last guy with balls to step up to the plate, I disagree... Slick Willie was purdy good at it, too, and if he smelled blood he was even better... Right now the Repubs are very vulnerable and Slick Willie would step to the plate and shred 'um up like a pasta machine... If I can see that and most commentators can see that how come Obama can't see that ind is going to extend these tax cuts for the rich *******for ever*******... That is exactly what any extension means, folks... I mean, make no bones about it... He has one shot to stop it and in the words of Angelo Dundee, "Yer blowin' it, son..." B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:15 PM What unilateral POWERS do US presidents actually possess? Veto. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:17 PM our respective countries have "outgrown" capitalism If by capitalism you mean private ownership of the means of production, no we have not. That is the core technical definition AFAIK. If you mean some other more histrionic definition, let's have it declared up front so we can speak to the same concepts. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 01 Dec 10 - 04:22 PM I mean Amos, that the economic growth engendered by corporate capitalism, is no longer capable of sustaining the standard of living to which we have become accustomed. This would of course apply in some measure to all economic systems, but, if our living standards are to fall(as they surely must),I see no reason to allow that fall to sustain a system, as patently inequitable and destructive as capitalism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 01 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM Speak for the UK, ake, ol' boy... Here in the good ol' US of A we still make tons of money... That ain't the problem... It's our corrupt system that has allowed Boss Hog to keep most of it for himself... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 01 Dec 10 - 05:24 PM `Does anyone but me see the collapse of civilization in our lifetime?` Read `Cities in Flight`. As we understood (understand) it, civilization has already collapsed. IMO, it started about 150 years ago. The garb for riches is simply the new neocon method of ensuring that when billions of people need to be killed off--well, they won`t be amongst those who need to be killed off. This shit has been happening since the term New World Order began to be bandied about in the late 1800s. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 01 Dec 10 - 10:01 PM "Should Obama resign, Biden becomes President. See the Nixon/Ford succession." Precisely. So let's go one more step. How did that work out for Mr. Ford in 1976? As I said, internecine warfare. How many Mudcatters think Ford is a good model for the present situation? Look, sometimes (in fact most of the time) it's a lot better to "dance with the one that brung ya." And stop complaining about it. Especially since things are likely to improve in the summer. But it's also still (this is a recording) not a wonderful idea to just assume that Sarah will not run, if she runs cannot get the Republican nomination, and if she gets it cannot be elected. How many Mudcatters have lived through the 1980 or 2000 elections? Quite a few, I'd bet. That should give you more than a hint of Sarah's chances. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:05 AM James "The Skull" Carville said of Hillary would give one of her balls to Obama he would have two Video |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:22 AM Bobert: "As for Harry Truman being the last guy with balls to step up to the plate, I disagree... Slick Willie was purdy good at it, too,.." BZZZZT! Wrong!....Kennedy facing off during the Cuban missile crisis, was probably the most ballsy of any President!......Well, maybe if you count Slick Willy having sex with undoubtedly some of the ugliest tasteless pigs in America! Shit, I'd lie about that, too!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM Funny Hillary should come up. She has at least as much right to be considered as Democratic nominee for 2012 as Biden does--perhaps more---and her supporters will not be shy about saying so. Her supporters will also not be satisfied with giving her the VP slot under Biden. And Biden, once made president, will not likely accept the #2 spot under Hillary. This is the most likely reason for bloody primaries on the Democratic side if Mudcatters' idea about Obama stepping down now is adopted. It is, bluntly, one of the worst ideas imaginable for the Democrats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 02 Dec 10 - 09:03 AM Well, yeah, Gf-ser... I do recall JFK steppin' to the plate... Well, as did LBJ with civil rights... Even more folks for Obama to emulate rather than playing washrag to the Repubs... As for Obama steppin' down??? I don't think anyone is sayin' he should resign (a la, Tricky Dick) but I go back and forth on whether or not he should run in '12... I mean, if this is a tough as he can be then I'd have to vacillate back to him not runnin'... Hillary would have the balls to stand up for the working class... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:53 AM You all know in your hearts that Hill n' Bill are on a mission, they've had their eyes on the Presidency ever since Mr Obama made his first and biggest mistake.....taking the cuckoo into the nest. Funny how things turn out, I suppose now, Mrs Clinton is the Dems only chance to avoid being wiped out. But, there are the makin' of a big split....with millions of disgruntled Obama supporters feeling the pain of their messiah's crucifiction. An interesting dilemma for Mudcat Dems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:05 AM It ain't about personalities, ake... It's about policies... Hillary Clinton would not be negotiating with herself right now about tax cuts for the rich... She would step to the plate and call out the Repubs in the most ***forceful*** manner... (But, Boberdz... Obama is tryin' to change the tone in Washington...) So he has... A tone of capitulation, capitulation and more capitulation... Like I said (or haven't yet), if he ain't got the balls for the job then stand aside and let someone who does... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:14 AM I'll let someone else answer that.....but there are many Dem supporters who would have to hold their noses pretty tight when voting for the Dynamic Duo! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:17 AM Right now, I'd take Hillary, even if it meant getting Billy Bob in the deal... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:53 AM "Sales is all about creating false expectations in people's minds." Another sterling Little Hawk epigram. The best salesmen I have met have been completely honest, but were skilled at determining whether there was a fit between the needs of the customer (or the Electorate, if you will) and their product (or their political agenda, if you will). They then make a case for a mutually beneficial agreement, and rely on the intelligence of the customer to make a reasonable decision. Obama never advertised himself as a muck-raker or an enemy of captialism or a dictator or a socialist. He proclaimed himself to be a centrist who would try to move the country in a more rational direction, and take care of some needed issues. This is what he has attempted to do. Guest 999 had it pretty much right...he was left with a rundown, manure-filled stable and asked to produce Derby -winning thoroughbreds in 2 years or less. So who is it that is being unreasonable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:24 PM What's reason got to do with it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:20 PM My mistake was to use the word "all", LEJ. There are some honest salsemen in this world, yes...certainly...I've met plenty of them on an individual basis. But what you mostly see in mass media advertising and political advertising, which is what I was referring to, is gross exaggeration of the "product", pandering to people's most primitive instincts and weaknesses, deliberately attempting to mislead the customer into buying something that's actually no good for him at all (like soft drinks and junk food, for example), pandering to emotion and abandonment of logic....by every deceitful means possible the advertiser attempts to get the public momentarily excited in such a way that they will buy the product. And a candidate is such a product. I was NOT referrring to every single individual salesman in the world, so I should not have said "all sales". I trust you get my meaning now? It is the political parties who are sales organizations at election time, and they sell their various candidates to the public. The party that runs the better sales campaign (and is in a better position to do so at the time) makes the sale. Their guy gets elected. The best possible position for either party to be in is for the other party to have been in power for long enough to have deeply alienated a majority of the public....at that time the pubic is ready to "kick the rascals out"....and take a chance on the other set of rascals! ;-) And the game goes on. The most dangerous thing a man can do for his credibility is usually to get elected, because the system that he is figurehead of does NOT serve the general public. He will inevitably disappoint people. The lies, exaggerations, and false propaganda that were used to sell him to the public will be seen to be hollow and empty as his term goes on...and many former supporters will abandon him. It happened to Bush. It's now happening to Obama. It happens to virtually all of them, because they are elected by false advertising and that means that they will disappoint people severely once they are in office. This is also the case in Canada, the UK, and probably just about everywhere else on the face of the Earth right now...so don't think the USA stands alone in my indictment of the current political order. Hardly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:20 PM OK, Ake, I'll bite. Where is this Shangri La you speak of, where capitalism has been tossed in the dust bin of history in favor of whatever it is you're espousing? And how would you suggest we establish your enlightened model here in the Land of Mammon? Or is that question unreasonable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:36 PM I'm all in favor of small-scale local capitalism, as it once existed (well, and it still does, but it's being chipped away at constantly by corporatism). What we see now is a concentration of wealth in the hands of a very small and incredibly rich elite who move money around the world as they please. Multinationals. The corporatocracy has fairly much destroyed small scale capitalism and has destroyed democracy along with it as far as I can see. They were saying on the TV yesterday that the average salaries of CEOs 25 years ago were about 20 to 30 times the salaries of ordinary workers. Now they are ranging from 200 to 300 times the salaries of ordinary workers!!! That is what has happened under the Corporatocracy, and local people can't do anything about it, because they have no means of locally redressing the situation when dealing with multinationals who can just move their jobs to Asia or Mexico or wherever the labor is cheapest. It isn't traditional capitalism anymore out there. It's serfdom, accomplished by corporate centralization of the means of production. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 Dec 10 - 02:17 PM That is a pretty rational assessment, Little Hawk, and I tend to agree with you on several points. The current reaction to this concentration of economic power under huge entities(read Tea Party for "current reaction") is to say that government restriction and interference are at fault for our current woes. This approach is pretty much invalidated by results we have seen in our lifetime, where deregulation specifically in the housing, banking, and stock fund industries has resulted in manipulation by corporations that has actually proven destructive to those industries. In the absence of governmental regulation, the solution has been governmental salvation for these industries. In my view, you must have one or the other, and I much prefer regulation. The taint of business influence on government has long been a major concern in my country. Theodore Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower, both Republicans by the way, articulated these concerns and particularly in TR's case, sought to use governmental power to restrict negative influences on competition, such as the huge Trusts of the early 1900s. But in the name of Laissez Faire, their successors, like Reagan, both Bushes, and even Bill Clinton, have sought to restrict governmental control in industry. I do think that Obama had real power to effect change at the point of his election, but the work required to affect this change is ugly, hard work, and if has fallen short in his efforts, I believe that it is in the area of articulating the crisis in terms the average man and woman can understand, which was what another Roosevelt, similarly set upon, was able to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 02 Dec 10 - 03:35 PM What's reason got to do with it? There are some posters of whom, when I read their posts, I think this very thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Janie Date: 02 Dec 10 - 04:47 PM Morning Edition had a pretty good segment today on liberal discontent. It was a a well considered piece, talked about the president's attitudes and ideas about negotiation, and that they are proving ineffective in dealing with Congress and with Congress. He would like to redefine the game, I believe. I think he is learning the leverage isn't there for him to change the game all by himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:10 PM A good salesman is always honest... A good salesman will listen, learn and then presnt what he or she thinks is the best thing for you... Example: 90 year woman, with walker, who comes to car dealer looking for a car but has no idea what she wants... Good salesman sells her a car that will be easiest for here to get in and out of and drive... Bad salesman will try to sell here a Corvette... Yes, a good salesman may have to0 ask for the order several times before the sale is made... That is part of the deal... It's not dishonest, if you have done all the listening and presented the customer with what best fits him or here to ask them for the sale... The problem with Obama is that he is willing to let the old lady buy the Corvette because the Repubs told her that is what she needs... And why do the Re4pubs think that??? Because they will benefit financially, that's why... That is bad salesmanship... Very bad... Immorally bad... Dishonestly bad... Obama has already told US what we need if we are to cut the deficit...For him to not stand up for that is just like stuffing that poor 90 year old woman in the Vette... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:15 PM well said Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:35 PM I notice the House just passed the extension on tax relief for those making less than $250000/yr. Looks like he's getting something done... The Loyal Opposition was spitting their teeth out trying to extend the cuts for all higher income brackets as well. Shame, really. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:18 PM Yeah because look how much trickled down during the Bush years. Oh wait. Nevermind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:29 PM Oddly enough, I saw small-scale local capitalism flourishing in Cuba, which is supposedly Communist! I'll explain what I mean about that. There were many little local restaurants (mostly little cafes where you could sit outside under a canopy and your food was cooked close to where you were sitting). Each cafe was unique, run by a local family, and they ran it in their own unique way and cooked REAL food that came from fresh local agricultural sources...not McDonald's hamburgers. There were no chain stores to be seen in Cuba, and no fast food chains and no corporate advertising. All the food offered in the cafes was home-cooked, real food, not processed food, so it would vary according to the skills of the cook, naturally. The cafes naturally try to earn a profit in order to be viable businesses, so their prices are set up to do that, but they're very inexpensive. Each cafe must, I assume, get a license....as does every restaurant and cafe in North America....other than that, they are all run as unique stand-alone businesses, and the way they are run is determined by the people running them, as long as they maintain normal health regulations (same as in North America). Now, my main point about this is: there is no corporate presence there in Cuba! No McDonalds. No Burger King. No Arby's. No Taco Bell. No Mr Submarine. No Starbucks. No Tim Horton's. None of that robotic corporate crap. Just thousands and thousands of unique little local businesses run by local people, all cooking real food that is made on the spot, not processed food. That's the situation we had once...a long time ago...in North America before the corporate chains started taking over the food industry. Ironically enough, in Communist Cuba, I saw the kind of freedom and local initiative on the smart of small local restauranteurs that once existed in North America under small-scale capitalism. They were not under the thumb of the Corporatocracy. They were doing it themselves, in their own way, as they decided. That's private enterprise. That's freedom. That's self-empowerment. That IS small-scale capitalism in a supposedly "socialist" society, because the big corporates have no power there. And that's one of the reasons why the USA would like to wipe the Cuban Revolution off the face of the Earth. It is getting in the way of corporate profits. Corporatism isn't traditional capitalism, it's the establishment of a dictatorial oligarchy of special corporate interests....and it's done by creating fiat money through what amounts to a gigantic Ponzi scheme run by the banks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:36 PM Good on the House... I expected them to do it... Now to the Senate where it will get seriously messed up... And here's the part I don't understand... The Repub Senate (100% of them) have signed a letter telling Obama that if he pushes thru a bill where the rich don't continue getting the tax cut that George Bush gave them (supposedly so they would create jobs- bib lie) that this Senate will punish the unemployed by not extending unemployment and will punish the entire world by not voting for the START Treaty and will continue then homophobic DADT policy... So much for cooperation... Do it our way or else is the Repubs idea of it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:41 PM GfS: "BZZZZT! Wrong!....Kennedy facing off during the Cuban missile crisis, was probably the most ballsy of any President!......Well, maybe if you count Slick Willy having sex with undoubtedly some of the ugliest tasteless pigs in America! Shit, I'd lie about that, too!!!" THEN THE VERY NEXT POST!: Ron Davies: "Funny Hillary should come up...." I cracked up!!..O' Billy certainly doesn't have much taste! At least JFK was shtoopin' Jackie and Marylin Monroe!(Even though I'm not for promiscuity)..at he, at least had some taste! And as far as all the hoop-ti-do about Hillary...She is an unashamed crooked ass...and been corrupt with the rest of them. Maybe something about her appeals to some part of you, but it ain't your brain! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM What appeals about her to those people, GfS, is mainly... They think she can win the presidency for the Democrats. And secondarily, they think she's tough, which I would say is quite correct. That doesn't mean she's desirable, but if one wants the Democrats to win, then it becomes an important consideration, doesn't it? And most people on this forum want the Democrats to win....just as much as they want the Republicans to lose. I want to see them both swept forever into the dustbin of history by some sort of popular revolution. There is no political party out there that I believe in. Not one. I'll admit that some are worse than others, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 02 Dec 10 - 07:18 PM She's also one of the most progressive dems on the public stage right now. Some of us, at least, are hoping she might be able to stand up to Big Biz a little more than the current prez -- whose puppet strings are starting to show. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:02 PM Hi EJ.....been away. It would take more than a couple of paragraphs on an internet forum to explain how I would like to see the future....Maybe two glasses, a bottle of Glen Grant and the best part of a night would just about do it :0) Anyway, I'm at the end of my life the decision is for the young folks...I wasted too much time fighting the battles the bastards want us to fight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:22 PM Like everything I hear anymore from the extreme right, things get so distorted that it is impossible to rationalize. I like the term "progressive movement" as it is now such a dirty word. I would like to remind everyone what happened in the progressive movement. Maybe a little US history is in order before it gets pitched around like the F word. Or did people really like the boss hogs with their trusts and monopolies as Bobart says and 10 year old working in the factories progressive movement As far as Hillary, I know her, she would get my vote in 10 seconds. People talk as thought she is the anti-Christ where I don't think there is a person in government today that cares more about the people and this nation as Hillary ... MY KID Worked for her in DC at a time when I was a registered republican ... and I am as far from a liberal rich elite as you can get . And I don't agree with all of her views , I don't agree with all of anyone's views as I am my own person. But I do know a bit more then others about her and her dedication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:28 PM Glen Grant? Is that really a Scotch? We used to have a crooked used car dealer in town called Glen Grant. He was wanted for fraudulent business practices in both Washington and California. He did outrageous TV commercials where he was green-screened onto a car hood standing on his head, saying "I'll stand on my head to make you a deal." What a crook! I hope the Scotch isn't as shady. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:30 PM No, LH... If I thought that Hillary would win and become Melba Milk Toast Obama then I'd write in Donald Duck!!! Liberal/progressives don't give a flyin' fig about who or what party is in... It's all about intelligence in "govern"ment and right now there ain't much... Hillary would, at the very least, not back down from John "Chicken Poop" Bonehead... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Arkie Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:57 PM Obama campaigned on ideals but he alone cannot control what happens in this country. He needs support from his own party and he needs for the opposition party to put the good of the country before a selfish grab for power. The Republican Party is controlled by a small segment of wealthy and powerful people from the business community whose only ethic is gain and maintain control of politics and economics. They have the means of controlling a large segment of the population with lies, fear, and misinformation. That Obama has had any success in improving the economy, passing even a weakened health care reform, and attempted reform of the banking and business system is amazing give the level of opposition. I cannot help but believe that with McCain and Palin running the country matters would be much worse. Obama has not achieved what many of us who supported him had hoped for. But he is not a dictator. He is an elected official who must work within a terribly compromised system and receive cooperation from severely ethically flawed elected officials. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: katlaughing Date: 02 Dec 10 - 09:21 PM Arkie, very well put. Thank you!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 02 Dec 10 - 09:36 PM Gad Bless Tom Delay, the poor old sot has been found guilty and is looking at a life sentence. I say Obama gives him a Christmas Eve pardon since what Delay did by funneling illegal corporate money to his campaigns is now what the Supreme allows with its Citizens United ruling, in that unlimited corporate money can be funneled to political campaigns. Hurray for Spain for indicting 6 Bush republicans for torture under international law. BOO HISS to the Obama administration that threatened Spain if they tried to extradite our torturers. Time to punish Nigeria which has indicted Cheney who was the CEO of KBR when KBR bribed Nigerian officials with 300 million dollars. Good luck finding Cheney. The Obama administration does not know where he is. Obama has not indicted a single Bushie. Obama has bailed out AIG and Goldman Sachs 8 times more than the middle class. I bet those 14 stiches in Obama's lip are like the time Bush choked on a Pretzel. It was really the muscle of Corporate America giving him the agenda for the coming year and he had the gall to speak out of turn...WHACK "don't speak, LISTEN! and obey...you will do nothing to obstruct the tax cuts for billionaires, secondly..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 02 Dec 10 - 09:43 PM I gotta a different look at it... The Dems need support from Obama... Right now seems he is more interested in basketball than steppin' up and do his best Harry Truman impersonation... Until that happens, don't blame the Dems... Most of them are tryin'... If Obama would step up they would follow... At least enough so the American people would know just what the heck they do stand for... Right now??? Obama is coming off as a supreme wimp... He's got a gimme with this tax issue but he won't take it... I mean, it would only take one of Truman's balls to pull this off and win one for sound fiscal policy and that first step in getting the working man back on the Dems side... If he doesn't step up here, ***this** will be his Katrina... with a side order of Iraq... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:32 PM "...puppet strings..." That sounds awful close to hyperbole---and the good old conspiracy theory addiction of so many Mudcatters. Sure people left of center are bitter-- (and may not even have guns and religion to turn to)-- but it's premature to write off the President. Especially since he has--against huge opposition, some even from his own party--accomplished quite a bit. It's a bit of a problem when you're dealing with the worst recession since the Depression--and trying to do other things at the same time, like overhauling the health care system. Main problem appears to be that virtually nobody knew just how deep this recession really was---so unrealistic predictions were made--and the necessary laser-focus on the economy was not there. Added to which, even had it been there, presidents have remarkably little control over the economy--though they always take blame--or credit--for it. But that now comes under the category of spilt milk. And anybody who thinks that either Biden or Hillary can deflect criticism of the Obama administration should explain how either of these people can seriously claim to not be part of said administration. Look, it's back to "dance with the one that brung you." At this point the Democrats have no other choice--and, as I've said more than once, things are likely to improve this summer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:44 PM I'll feel things have improved when I have another job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:57 PM More whatthefuck... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:58 PM Seriously, good luck to you, mt. Hope things work out soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:48 AM Little Hawk:(yo-ho), "And most people on this forum want the Democrats to win....just as much as they want the Republicans to lose. I want to see them both swept forever into the dustbin of history by some sort of popular revolution. There is no political party out there that I believe in. Not one. I'll admit that some are worse than others, though." I KNEW you had common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hilary is just as big into the pockets of big business as much, or more than a lot of her 'Republican' counter-parts, and what amazes me to no end, is that somehow that seems to get by a lot of you! This is all a big charade where one hand washes the other. The whole deception is just like the 'good cop/bad cop' scenario, and you get to pick which 'cop' you like, to be your good cop! This is about mega-corporations OWNING the politicians, while China OWNS us through the debt! This is about de-industrializing America, and 'sharing the wealth' by stealing from us, and GIVING it away, not for 'love', not for 'righteousness', not for the 'moral high ground', not because 'its the right thing to do'...this masquerade is about POWER, and those who rose to the top, through corrupt practices, are deciding who gets what, from our President, all the way down to the unborn! CHECK IT OUT!..and yet, some of the 'sincere' devotees, even on here, think this is the political system we grew up with! It ain't! ..and you might be most sincere, and I believe a lot of you are, but you are also sincerely wrong! The American small businesses are under attack, like never before in our history. We have been lied to at every turn, by our so called 'representatives'....and there is NOTHING wrong with a small business, started to provide for one's family, and the few people that it may employ. If this keeps up, the government will be the one deciding what job you do, where you have to do it, and control every aspect of your life! THAT is BULLSHIT! By the way, I just got an e-mail about the control over the music industry, and making sure that the music that is heard, is kept at the dumbest levels, as to keep the public 'dumbed down' and to the people from 'wising up', and thinking outside the nice little mental sandbox they've created, just for you...and some of you just keep rooting them on!!(hey Ebbie, I got 'rooting' right this time!) I suspect that Little Hawk's, "...both swept forever into the dustbin of history..." will happen sooner than we think...the scarier part is, what the hell will they come up with in it's place. I suspect 'chipping' everyone or trying, will be a part of the agenda. This will have NOTHING to do with a 'political/patriotic' party of do-gooders. (jeez, I could even break it down how their going to make it look, like its the only practical thing to do..fuckin' Machiavellian assholes! Ok, enough..I need to spend some serious studio time, and got to break, from this, to go do it. I've got some MAJOR recording to do, and have been double-booked, on the same day, in two to different towns this week, and then some frantic traveling, for two separate gigs just hours apart...plus an invite for a get together, and dinner, at the same time...IN A DIFFERENT TOWN, yet! Just screwed up planning...but it wasn't by me!.. Oh well, gotta go.....See ya' for now.. Waving, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 03 Dec 10 - 01:47 AM Republicans have carried out their verbal promise to make job 1 the destruction of president Obama by voting no on everything and demand a super majority vote with 105 fillibusters over the last 2 years. NOW THEY PUT IT IN WRITING. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 03 Dec 10 - 02:02 AM http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/letter.jpg Barak should make a big deal about the ransom letter. Give as good as he got. Is he afraid they will call him an angry black man> Will they call you Stalin? Will they call you a liar at the State of the Union? Tell it like it is and put in no uncertain terms that the Republicans are risking the entire nation to satisfy 25 billionaires who give republicans money. Make the ransom letter the centerpice of the extortion republicans are commiting, and hang them with their own rope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 07:20 AM Well, there you go again, GfinS... Sme stuff you write about Obama you now use on Hillary... During the primary season you hated Obama and gave folks the impression you favored Hillary... Now Hillary is GfinS Public Enemy #1... Maybe you'd rather have Mitch McConnell as President 'er John "CickenCrap" Bonehead, I donno? I'm with you, Donuel... That letter is about the most childish, arrogant piece of "chicken crap" I can remember any party in Congress ever doing... These folks are acting like spoiled crybaby rich kids who think they deserve a 4th (or 5th) strike because they own the ball... Word on the street is that Charles Shummer (D-N.Y) is going to propose -- drum roll -- tax cuts for millionaires!!!! How novel??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 10 - 09:01 AM GfS, like me, is absolutely disgusted with both the Democrats and Republicans, Bobert, and considers both of those parties and their candidates to be crooks making empty promises. Why is it that you keep forgetting that? He or she has also criticized George Bush and the Bush administration just as severely as he or she does the Obama administration. Why do you keep forgetting THAT? Selective deafness? Selective blindness? Short memory? Inattention? What? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 09:36 AM Great, LH... The problem is that pullin' the covers over yer head isn't an option... I mean, this constant stone throwing at any and everyone is not productive and, frankly, beginning to sound like a stuck record from the 2000 Nadar campaign, which BTW, I worked... I mean, yeah... We could just throw up our hands and say that everything is hopeless and corrupt and have a nice day but then what??? Reality is that, as members of a so-called democracy (however corrupt and hopeless) we do have a responsibility to try to find ways, short of taking up arms, of communicating, framing, discussing, debating things that ***will*** effect US... Anything less is just that: less... A lot less, might of fact and, therefore, not all that helpful... I mean, even if the sky is falling, we should have some level of hope... Regurgitation of Nadar's 2000 message ain't hopeful at all... It's, frankly, arrogant and irresponsible... Not to mention, ahhhhh, lazy... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 10 - 10:05 AM That isn't a choice for me, Bobert, because I'm a Canadian. I watch from the outside and I cannot participate in your political system nor would I want to. GfS is an American...so GfS can participate in your political system, but if GfS has absolutely no faith left in either the Democrats or the Republicans, then why should he/she actively support either one of them? The way your political system is run, no 3rd party ever has a chance, because big media will either ignore a 3rd party or demonize it or make it into a running joke. People's votes are mainly shaped through their exposure to the mass media (in the case of those who are in any way prepared to be persuaded) (in the case of those whose minds are all made up, their views are simply hardened by the mass media). So it's a closed circle, and a vicious one. And there appears to be no escape through normal political avenues, as far as I can see. GfS is not being a disloyal American by refusing to believe in either one of those big 2 corrupt parties. People who do believe in either one of them are simply going through the old habitual motions and guaranteeing that they will remain helpless in the face of the present ruling system, which plays "Good Cop -Bad Cop" on the voters by manipulating them and dividing through those 2 parties. It's not a conspiracy. It's simply an established way of doing business and maintaining corporate profit and power, and it works quite effectively...to the benefit of the very rich...to the detriment of the rest of you. I have no political solution for you, Bobert, not any more than I would have had a political solution for Germans in 1940. I simply comment on what I see happening, and it isn't good. You say, "even if the sky is falling, we should have some level of hope". For sure! And I do have hope. My hope is that I can still achieve good things in my own life, my personal life, my own achievements, my relationships with people. That is where I place my hope...NOT in corrupt political parties and a corrupted political system. I have never worked for any political party or belonged to one, because the years have shown me what I can expect from them. Nothing, that's what. I expect much, however, from myself, from life, and from the good people around me. That is where I have my level of hope...NOT in backing some phony political party which is nothing but a tool of large special interests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: saulgoldie Date: 03 Dec 10 - 10:09 AM Perhaps this is a repeat; I didn't read the whole thread. But, it is always good practice to remember to dance with the one that brung ya. Is he saving the last dance for me? I am tired, and I am ready to "go home." If I only had a home to go to... The majority of so-called Libertarians don't truly understand libertarianism. And the country doesn't really want what they would deliver if they were successful in enacting their program. The Greens don't have much of a chance of doing more than electing a few scattered candidates and spoiling for the Dems (which maybe is not such a bad idea, now that I think about it). No, I am still a solid "Democrat from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party. The rest of the party has left me, pursuing G-d knows what. My party leader is a shepherd without a staff. (Um, no, I did not intend that pun.) Any of the potential Republican presidential candidates on the horizon would undoubtedly rule far more dangerously than anything Dems can dream of. But how many times does one let one's lover betray them before they just say, "Fuckit, I'd rather be alone and lonely!"? Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 10 - 10:28 AM I think the Republicans are usually more dangerous than the Democrats too, saulgoldie, so I understand how you feel about that. Nevertheless, I could not in good faith back either one of them. Nor could I in good faith back the Libertarians or any other party. One thing I can back in good faith is ANY individual politician of ANY party whatsoever if I believe in HIM. Accordingly, I could back Dennis Kucinich in good faith, if I were an American. Not because he's a Democrat. Because I believe in him as a person, based on his track record thus far. I am not lonely without a political party that I feel I can back. There's a lot of other stuff in life which I can believe in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 11:16 AM I have no problems with folks not being aligned with political parties, LH... What I have a problem with is aloofness and the retelling of the "Both are the same" mythology... You admit that they are not but then put another quarter in the rocking horse and sing Nadar's 2000 Fight Song as if it absolves you of having to accept any responsibility with trying to change the facts on the ground... That is what hopelessness is all about... Ain't that easy... I mean, folks here try to have conversations/debates and bring up real "facts on the ground" issues (real or perceived) and a constant position of "yeah-ya'll-are-corrupt-so-rise-above-it" ain't a position at all... It's a cop out... Yeah, all progressives would love to have Dennis Kucinich as president... Or Bernie Saunders... Or Dr. Spock... Or, or, or... That ain't got anything to do with "facts on the ground"... I mean, I mean no disrespect here but, geeze louise, me thinks a new song is order... And that is offered not as a Dem, a Green, a Bull Moose or a Donald Ducker ... Just offered... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 10 - 11:24 AM Hell, Hawk's middle name is aloof, Bobez. It's his safe space, if ya know what I mean. Engaging in a contest of viewpoints is too trivial, once you have climbed the Golden Ladder where LH lives, to be bothered with. It could be argued, of course, that true enlightenment is of no value iof it can't also bring about an improved ability to face up to the brouhaha of life. But that may not be a discussion LH wants to have. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 10 - 11:57 AM How many times have I told you that they're not "the same", Bobert? ;-) HOW many times?????? They have to be different to keep the damn game going. They're just both no damn good, that's all. The reason I prefer the Democrats somewhat to the Republicans is BECAUSE they're not the same. But they're both not good enough to get my support. Fortunately, being Canadian, I have total justification for being 100% aloof from those pathetic 2 American mega-parties. You betcha. They are a joke across the entire world, but not a joke that's all that funny, because they really scare people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:14 PM According to my own count, you have told Bobert they are not the "same" 23 times. You have also implied that they are different 49 times. I like to keep track of these things, Little Hawk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:20 PM I demand a recount, E-Jay!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:30 PM Fact is there is no limit on the number of parties we can have. You need enough signatures to get on the ballot. The problem is support and money ... why do we still have two .. because they control the cash and can push their candidates all over the media. Jesse Ventura got elected to governor as a third party candidate. What we need is very qualified people to run and the dollars to make the third party candidate a real force. It always comes back to the same two choices each time. Because third party candidates now are only running on a single issue because they know they can't win. That is why you see the green party or save the rain forest party etc ... they just want to make a point. We need real candidates to break this two party system |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:49 PM As much as I disagree with them, I think the Tea Party at least originated as a third party, olddude. You can certainly argue that they are really an offshoot of the Republicans, but there were quite a few primaries where the Republican Party's chosen candidate was eliminated by a Tea Party candidate. As a result of their activity, the Republican Party has again been forced to run to the right of its traditional base. The Tea Party does display a couple of features of a true third party. It is primarily a grassroots effort, rather than a party designed around an individual running for the Presidency, like Nader and Perot's "third parties". It doesn't have a dominating figurehead, although Palin has been adopted as a favorite, but is based more on a philosophy of government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM Ej Completely agree with you. Although I also don't agree with most of their objectives it does look like a third party to me also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 10 - 01:43 PM I also agree with your assessment of the Tea Party, LEJ. Although, like Olddude, I'm not very well impressed with a lot of their ideas, they are at least an actual populist attempt to break the stranglehold of the Duopoly...and that's a healthy sign of at least the possibility of some genuinely democratic (small "d") activity in a mass media-dominated political landscape. If the Tea Party can do it, then there is hope that others may do it as well. Yeah, maybe it was 23 times I told Bobert that the Dems and Repubs AREN'T the same... ;-) Or it might have been 32 times. Maybe it was 48 times. Heh! I only bother to say so, because various yoyos here keep dismissing what I say on the basis that I supposedly say those 2 parties are "the same", which I most certainly do not. I wouldn't hate the Republicans utterly to the very marrow of my bones...while merely having contempt and mild loathing for the Democrats...if they were the same! They're not. Anyway, it never seems to stick in the short memories of people around here. They just fall back on the usual tired old attack. Sort of like whenever you mention in a discussion that something (anything at all) is better set up in France or Cuba or Denmark or wherever else than it is in the USA....the standard American defensive yoyo's response is a truculent..."WELL, If ya like France/Cuba/Denmark/etc better than ya like it HERE, then why don't ya MOVE there?" (as if ONE single issue or facet of some issue could make one decide to pull up stakes, leave one's own home, and move lock, stock, and barrel to some complete other society! Good lord. What a stupid question!) But that's the way playground bullies "think". In kneejerk cliches. Or in other words, they don't really think at all...they just emote fiercely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 10 - 01:45 PM They are historically significant because of that--they have created the impression of a third party with some genuine appeal. The intersection and cross pollination wwith the GOP does not support this notion, but at least in the media they seem to be talking the talk of a third party. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: MarkS Date: 03 Dec 10 - 02:29 PM And the Tea Partiers seem, to unexpert me at least, to have a significant portion of disaffected Democrats in their ranks who are unwilling to pull a lever with an "R" in front of the name, but still do not want much to do with the current "Democrat" choices offered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 10 - 02:57 PM Not to mention certain disgruntled apes and monkeys who are on the outs with Chongo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:11 PM I question just how "grass roots" they are given their funding sources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM Tea Party grassroots??? Pee in the cup... These are the facts: Dick Armey's lobbiest firm funneled hundreds of millions of dollars into Freedom Works which spent that money on ***community organizers", offices, phones, printing, advertisement, buses, etc, etc... Throw in: *** "in kind" contributions/support/organizing by FOX unNews and figure what that would cost... *** the massive negative ad attacks on the Dems/Obama by the pharma and health insurance lobbies that tieds right into the other organizing... *** a media that refused (and still does) air progressives yet if Sarah Palin farted made news... and guess what folks??? Give up??? A billion (at least) dollar so-called "grassroots" organization!!! Grassroots, my butt!!! Tell ya'll what.... Give me my own TV station and a billion dollars and I'll give you an organization of intellegent people that will equal or better (in numbers) the Tea Party... Like I said, "lotta ya'll need to pee in the cup".... For real... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM If I had a billion dollars, I'd use it for something much more creative.... ;-) But I would be happy to throw you a few hunnert thousand, Bobert, and see what you could do with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:41 PM Bobert you missed out the Koch brothers, some of the richest people on the planet, shoveling money into the Tea Party. Any wonder the Tea Party is calling for cutting taxes on the mindbogglingly wealthy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:49 PM Your points are well taken my friends. Apparently not grass roots at all but just another big money interest ... There is almost nothing I agree with them on but any further choices other than two would be welcome but it sounds like they are just another arm of the corporations |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Stringsinger Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:55 PM Obama is in the pocket of Wall Street. That's where he comes from. Hillary is a war-monger. The U.S. is now an Oligarchy, owned by rich white men, cannonized by the Supreme Court with the edict Citizens United, which means that John Roberts should be impeached, and Obama is a puppet on a string. The Tea Party should be rechristened "the Mad Tea Party" ala Alice in Wonderland. Dick Armey is the asylum jailer. Carter started the downslide by giving tax breaks to the wealthy. Reagan jumped on it. Goodbye Glass/Steagal, goodbye democracy. Goodbye unions. Goodbye democracy. Watch Obama give tax breaks to the wealthy. Ferdinand Pecora, where are you now that we need you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:49 PM Like Hawk, I have to keep repeating myself, there is a grass roots movement within the Tea Party and Sarah is a populist first and foremost...IMO she really believes in the freedom, independence and self responsibility she preaches......more importantly others believe she believes it...that is why she can gather people to her. If you want a country formed in your image, you must be prepared to take the long road.....nobody here is likely to see the finished product. First you need an element of unity if you want to crush the political power brokers, that means dropping some of the policies that you think define the liberal left. The centre right, the silent majority, are not evil people, they have simple ideologies, basic Christian values, belief the the benefits of a family environment, freedom from manipilation. freedom from the excesses of socialism. Dont think there are none(excesses of socialism)....I can assure you as a lifetime Communist there are many....and many more in the "liberal left" The most important thing is unity...smash the Pub/Dem cabal and you are on your way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: katlaughing Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:55 PM Good op/ed piece, imo, today, concerning Palin's chances in 2012. CLICK HERE FOR CNN OP/ED. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM Sarah Palin is a multi-millionaire, Ake... She has also been tagged to be the figurehead of the billion dollar un-grassroots Kock Bro, big Phar4ma, Big Health Ins., Big FreedomnWorks, Big Dick Armey political machine... Nothin' grassroots about it... The "community organizers" went out and knocked on doors and manned phone banks... This was a very well financed campaign... Very well... I'd be willing to go on the line and say that the Tea Party organizers spent more of the wealthy folk's money than both the RNC and DNC combined... That, my friend, is reality... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 03 Dec 10 - 05:14 PM Obama, Bush, Clinton, Palin, grassroots, turnip roots ... or whomever, whatever ... the country is going down the same path ... and it will continue to so unless a radical reaction can sway it. Anyway ... Senator Bernie Sanders pretty well explains the current state of the nation Senator Bernie Sanders speech and yes ... Obama is a very Big Disappointment |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 03 Dec 10 - 05:26 PM Back to Obama, yes I am disappointed. I know one man can't do it all and I see some positive things he tries to do. But he fails to lead .. that is my biggest gripe. Yes Michelle and the kids are wonderful and the sound bites are wonderful but ya gotta lead guy .. stand up be strong, call it as you see it and tell the people I am the President, this is why I did so and so and lead ... he doesn't do that and it is a shame |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:09 PM Bernie Saunders is the smartest man in American politics... Hand down!!! As for Obama??? If he capitulates to the Repubs on the Bush tax cuts to the rich, he doesn't deserve a second term... It is bad for the country and the BIGGEST of the BIGASS LIES is that those tax cuts are funding jobs... That is pure bullshit... They are nuthin' but kick-backs to donors... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:23 PM I just wanta say one thing here. Just one thing. Okay...Obama may be a pretty big disappointment. Fine. No argument there. But I think I can be a WAY bigger disappointment than Obama if I am elected and given a chance. I think I can make John McCain's, George Bush's, and John Kerry's collective records of disappointment wither like a banana peel in a blast furnace, and that's why I want YOUR vote in 2012! You ain't seen NOTHIN' yet. I will make Obama's ability to disappoint look feeble. Trust me. Don't waste time thinkin' about it no further. Don't hesitate. Don't opt for lacklustre dissapointment from Hillary and mediocre levels of disappointment from Sarah Palin. Next time vote for the absolute WORST!!! Vote Chongo in 2012! 3 free bananas on every plate, and no greased grapevines. You KNOW what to do now, don'tcha? - Chongo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:31 PM Where can I get a "Chongo in 2012" bumper sticker? biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM Hear, hear, Chongz... Well said!!! And, folks, I can attest to everything that the Chimp says... I hired him for my '08 campaign and he single handedly put it in the toilet... I mean, if you want messed up then it's Chongz in '12... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:39 PM more like if you want the status quo ... vote Chongz in '12. Hell, it won't make any difference having him for prez. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: DougR Date: 04 Dec 10 - 12:27 AM Greg F: "To be replaced by?" Why you, of course, Greg, we need a real "thinker" as president. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Dec 10 - 01:03 AM I posted this in a thread that nobody is reading much, so, I'll post it here....to give Bobert's Democratic obsession due credit. I want to be fair, because there really are bright politicians on both sides of the aisle! This is one of the guys Bobert recommends!!!! He's a Democrat, you know, one of those wise sages that votes for bills they don't read! A true representation of the folks that voted for him!! Go Democrats! Take it away you guys with profound wisdom....! Vote Democratic! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:28 AM Mr Saunders is saying exactly what some of us here,Hawk, GFS and a few others have been saying for years, that the system is controlled by the finiancial institutions.....global capitalism. The problem is, most of you people are still fighting the battles they want you to fight.......Divisive party politics, civil and human rights issues, unions who pretend to fight for workers, but are owned by the capitalists. Capitalism in decline, as we are seeing in most Western countries, has nothing to give the poor or the middle class, we are obsolete,they no longer need us, but will continue to suck the last drop of blood through increased prices for the necessities of life, like light, heat, food, and water. Their only failure has been their inability to package and market air. To be in any position to challenge the system there must be unity, while we are divided on party lines, believing that some day OUR kind of society will evolve within a capitalist system, we are bound to fail. In America and to a lesser extent Britain, this means a move to the centre right, thats where the people are....not in "liberal" think tanks like Mudcat. You may not like these people....they may be easy to ridicule, but by god you're gonna need them, because they are the ones with enough belief to fight bleed and die for a cause like freedom It is telling that these are the very people who have been harnessed by the Tea Party and who are the only voice in the West to condemn Government policy no matter what label it is under. If you have sense, you will start makin' friends with and influencing these people pretty quick.....if you dont, and they are marginalised, the consequences could be terminal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Teribus Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:39 AM Most in the UK will not be in the least disappointed with Barak Obama. He has turned out exactly as predicted, an empty suit, a political lightweight with no real answers and absolutely no leadership qualities. His management of foreign affairs is a complete and utter joke. The people over in the UK of course were at a distict advantage to the citizens and voters in the USA - we'd seen Obama's like eleven years before - His name was Tony Blair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:50 AM I am in complete agreement with a man who holds very different political views. See! its not difficult! The labels mean almost nothing! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:35 AM Me thinks it very appropriate for Ake and T-Bird to follow that clip, GfinS... I mean, talk about capsizin'... You got the right two fir the job in them... *grin*... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 04 Dec 10 - 03:56 PM Que? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:48 PM Amen to Teribus and Akenaton, once again!! ..as to Ake's 'Que?'..click the link my last post, and you will understand Bobert's post. Fair enough? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:48 PM Hi GFS....just looked at your link, and i think Mr Johnson may have been practicing a little irony with his capsize remarks. Perhaps he has been taken a bit too literally :0) Anyway, I agree with you on both threads we have been involved in today......Cheers Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:11 PM It didn't even occur to me that he was being ironical, but he may have been intending it that way...using hyperbole to make a point. I sure hope so! I didn't think it was even possible for an adult human being to be so uninformed as to imagine that an island can tip over and capsize from having too many people on it. Who could possibly entertain such a notion? So, yeah, he probably was using irony to illustrate his point. The fact that no one bursts out laughing in the video suggests that that is what he was doing. ***** I also agree with Teribus' last post, and that almost never happens. Glory be!!! Break out the champagne! ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM I agree completely with Ake except for the tea party part. If I read what Bobster said and the others it seems like it is not a move to the center that I dream America will once again become, but a drift to the right only ... We need a balanced government that can disagree but understand both sides of the equation. What we have now as before is re-packaged Corporate agents in a government position. The people lose in every case. On occasion either one will toss out a bone to say .. see we are the people also but in the end it boils down to wall street politics of the early industrial revolution kind. If they have their way they would put back the 10 year olds in the factories .. Oh but now we have no factories so we leave that up to China to do it for us |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM I think the guy was stoned. But, as usual, GfS is running around the neighborhood with a veyr broad brush, instead of focusing on relevant or important aspects of things, just sloshing the old paint around. Thanks for the laugh anyway. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM He talks v-e-r-r-r-r-y sloooooooowwwwwly....... Maybe he was stoned. Maybe he was drunk. Maybe it's just his way of exaggerating and using grand and ridiculous hyperbole to make a point. I think one would have to have been there through the entire episode to be sure about it one way or another. In the meantime, people are having a lot of fun making hay out of it on the Internet. There's even a cartoon on Youtube showing the island of Guam tipping over as the 25,000 US soldiers swarm ashore. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:36 PM I fear i may have been right again :0) IRONY |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:42 PM It's not like we have allowed all our manufacturing go, Oldster... Yeah, we allowed the Japanese to steal or steel industry in the 80s but the rest haven't so much stolen as stupid tax codes and corporate greed that have allowed Boss Hog to continue owning the industries but moving the equipment overseas... I my area of the country it was the textile industry that was dismantled and moved machine-by-machine to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, etc. with Boss Hog either owning the industry outright or having a sweetheart deal with someone in those countries... One of the worst tax policies that I am aware of is not taxing physical plants in foreign nations as corporate assets... Here's how that one works... In order to attract US business, China (and others) will offer to put in all the infrastructure and build the plants for Boss Hog, Inc, and then turn it all over to Boss Hog, Inc. who in turn hires folks in host country... Now if Boss Hog, Inc. had to spend his own money in the US and build a widget factory that factory would be taxed potentially as an asset held by Boss Hog, Inc., right??? Not that way with foreign plants... Boss Hog, Inc. has bought off enough Congressmen to exempt that asset from being taxed??? In other words, there is no incentive for Boss Hog, inc. to keep making widgets here in the US... And we wonder why we have 9.8% unemployment and 20% under-employment??? Follow the money... As for how these loopholes got into our tax codes it ain't rocket surgery... And if we get more supposed "free trade" jerks in Congress who would rather make a buck for themselves and their buddies, at the expense of our country, then so be it... They really don't give a flying fuck for the American worker... That's why they don't want to extend unemployment... If I were president I'd close that loophole so fast that it would make Boss Hog's head spin off his neck... I mean, if I had to use signing statements, I'd do it... I'd also invite every last crooked Boss Hog to either love this country and support it or get the heck out and don't come back... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:56 PM Good attention on your part, Ake. ;-) It appears that Hank Johnson has simply run afoul of the now legendary inability of (a great many) Americans to appreciate or understand irony...specially when it is delivered deadpan... Heh! The poor man! He is now going to forever be accused of a gross stupidity that he never committed or intended to, and it will become the legend that stalks him for years and years. He should have known better than to speak in anything but purely literal and simplistic terms in front of news cameras. When you are being watched by hungry sharks and vultures, you must remain absolutely literal at all times or pay the price. Irony? Metaphor? Forget it! Only Dick and Jane levels of baldly literal presentation will get you through the minefield unscathed. "Guam is a small island. Quite small. Don't you think that the influx of 100,000 American servicemen will have some negative impact upon the lives of the people living there, and on the local environment?" That is evidently what he should have said. A lot of people just don't get metaphors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:08 PM Yes Hawk, Mr Johnson appears to be quite a character! Interesting, intelligent and humorous. The biters, bit, in this case...eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:47 PM Yes. ;-D And I am sure they will continue to bite. Forever and ever. Wait and see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: saulgoldie Date: 06 Dec 10 - 08:28 PM Ohboy! Continued tax cuts for the overlords! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 06 Dec 10 - 10:01 PM Let's balance the budget by cutting revenue! This is how interested the Republicans are in balancing the budget. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:31 AM Hi..Back..I thought Johnson, when he was first trying to give a description of the island, was not being 'ironic'(go back and watch it), because of the 'delivery'...and really, is this what our taxes pay for?..This is as good as it gets? I think the commentaries, afterward, looked more like 'damage control'. Nonetheless, it really doesn't matter..I just thought it was all idiocy. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 07 Dec 10 - 08:09 AM Well, if we needed proof that we got another Slick Willie we now have it... No Truman in Obama... This is Obama's "Welfare Reform"... This ol' hillbilly won't be workin' the '12 campaign unless Bernie Sunders or Dennis Kucinich runs in a 3rd party... Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Dec 10 - 09:48 AM All the blather aside--and there is certainly lots of it on this thread--I see a people who are disappointed in themselves because for one reason or other they have let government of the people, by the people and for the people slip away from their country. Obama cannot change a damned thing by himself. YOU are the folks who could help him. Bitchin does not change squat. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 07 Dec 10 - 10:18 AM You are right Bobster, Boss Hog loves overseas factories. Heck no workman compensation , no labor laws, no environmental laws .. can work anyone anyway they want to get that buck with no corporate taxes. Well they may have to buy a few government officials in that country but heck that is a drop in the bucket for the 8 buck a day workers they get ... yup greed at it best. Why should one settle for 10 billion dollars in their personal bank accounts when they can get 20. Everyone needs a 4th private Jet or a 7th mansion on some island. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:26 PM The only good I see out of this is now that Obama has given in, with little resistance I might add, is that the Dems, should they grow some balls, can now put jobs on the backs of the Repubs... I mean, the Repubs said the rich needed the tax cuts so they could produce jobs... Of course, we all know that is bull because they've had those tax cut for 9 years now and aren't producing any jobs but the Dems can now beat the Repubs with this... Doesn't change the fact that Obama ain't much of a negotiator... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:31 PM I agree about that, Bobert. But neither would any of us be if we had no one to speak with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Greg F. Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM the Dems, should they grow some balls... Not gonna happen. The Dems are a bloody gutless disgrace- they should have adopted the BuShites' play book & told 'em to shove it up their arse, let ALL the tax cuts expire, and put it on the Republicraps. Wimping out ain't "compromise" - its wimping out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM As an aside, when you look at your country, are you not ashamed of a place (political system) that could produce a thing like the Tea Party and things like Palin. We in Canada had an idiot much like her. His name is Stockwell Day. He is to the right of Caligula but elected and sitting in our parliament. Full of stunts and stupid crap that draws attention but little of substance. (IMO, the Harper government will fall next election--but there are few options. In fact allow me to be so bold as to suggest that a no confidence motion will tumble it within four months.) I have read statements by some folks here who hate Obama. But justifications for radical politicos--who in another time would have been called anarchists--coming from the pens of otherwise smart people sure does bring things to a screeching halt. How anyone could sit back and say shit like, I have mine and fuck the rest is beyond my ability to imagine. Yet many posters have done just that. So, we in Canada will end up like Americans: a people desperately seeking a democracy but knowing deep in our hearts that we have left it too late. Those camps we spoke of about five years back: I wonder how soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Dec 10 - 01:08 PM Obama is a typical product of the Daly Machine in Chicago. A good front but little to support it. The Democrats had their chance in the primaries and convention to nominate Hillary Clinton, a proven negotiator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: olddude Date: 07 Dec 10 - 01:43 PM It was a sell out plain and simple. a heart breaking disgrace. I expected more I really did I expected things would get somewhat moved back to center and that things would improve. What I see now is big corporate greed in control as always. I use to think, well the big boss hog types, they earned it, they worked hard took the risks and got the brass ring. Maybe once time in our country that could be true. Today they play the shell game with our houses, our kids education savings, with our retirement funds. They hire smart lawyers to look for SEC loopholes and take advantage of a missing law that would land them in jail. Kinda like the early days with designer drugs ... Hey cops there is no law against this drug, and they would walk free. Then a law came around saying your designer drug is now illegal, but in the meantime they got rich and people died. Wall Street big corps do the same, only with our main street savings and homes. And again we let it happen and sell out |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 07 Dec 10 - 01:55 PM "So, we in Canada will end up like Americans: a people desperately seeking a democracy but knowing deep in our hearts that we have left it too late" Guest, 999 .... I think we are almost there. And yes sadly we have pretty well left it too late. Many of of us have tried to prevent this by speaking out and communicating our feelings to the powers that be, and to the ones who have no power but a vote.. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Dec 10 - 02:15 PM Bill, That is the ultimate fear I have for my kids. Thanks for your remark. Bruce |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:26 PM How do we ordinary people build a genuine democracy when all the sizeable political parties AND the mass media have been bought out by corporate lobbyists, thereby depriving us of meaningful choices at the polls? I don't even see how it's possible to break that ruling (multi)party system, except through revolution....and I don't see much possibility of a revolution happening here or in the USA. People aren't desperate enough here yet to stage a revolution, and the police and military forces that would be brought against people if they ever tried one would kill and imprison one hell of a lot of people. You can't generally succeed in that sort of thing until the soldiers themselves rebel and join the people in overthrowing the system. That happened in Russia in 1917. I can't see it happening here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 07 Dec 10 - 05:17 PM There are some other paths, LH, but all are, at best, crap shoots... First of all, I have suggested that every "liberal Democrat" in Congress invite one Tea Party electee to lunch... Okay, maybe several but one at a time... Inh essence, most of the Tea Party folks comin' to D.C. are clueless... I don't hold them responsible... It's just that they don't know any better... If progressives could show the Tea Party where the common ground is nthenh there is a change of pryin' the Tea Paerty6 away from the Repubs... What I know of most of them is that they are pissed because the government hasn't worked for them or their friends/supporters... I don't see this tidal wave of them wanting much more than a more effective government... That's what progressives want... That means that presidents don't/can't take US to war because they are bored or because they want to win an election... I think the Tea Party folks would come around to that thinkin' without alot of arm twisting... Step two is use the Tea Party to explain to "Southern Man" that the reason that they are only makin' $30,000 a year in the South isn't because of mean unions or mean government... It's because the corporations are exploiting them... I have long predicted that the US will turn back to the left when Southern Man finally has had enough... I mean, there ain't no guarantees but seems to me that there is a path short of armed revolution... And no... I ain't all smoked up at the moment... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Dec 10 - 05:48 PM You may be right. I hope so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment. From: Genie Date: 07 Dec 10 - 05:49 PM Little Hawk, "How do we ordinary people build a genuine democracy when all the sizeable political parties AND the mass media have been bought out by corporate lobbyists, thereby depriving us of meaningful choices at the polls?" Heck, as long as the MEDIA are owned by a handful of huge corporations, there's basically no chance of any political party having any power or much support unless they are also in bed with those big corporations. As for revolution? Get real. No popular revolution would stand a chance against the kind of weaponry -- not to mention the kind of "intelligence" apparatus -- that the military-industrial-prison complex has today. And as for that "sort of thing" that happened in Russia in 1917, how'd that work out for the Russian people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 07 Dec 10 - 06:40 PM As Hawk says, America is not ready for revolution and as Genie says no point in duplicating the Soviet model. My idea corresponds with Bobs,but instead of inviting the independents to join the left.....the left should be joining the independents. Left policies are far to divisive to produce any sort of unity with centre America. As we are the ones with all the brains :0),we should be able to understand that sometimes one must give ground in order to advance We should start listening to what ordinary people are saying, and uniting under a simple programme based on the constitution The left want to live by committee the independents want FREEDOM! Infiltrate, learn to listen, try to influence, and open yourselves up to the influence of others.....you may learn something. Most important forget EVERYTHING you have absorbed from a lifetime wasted on Party Politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment From: Genie Date: 07 Dec 10 - 08:12 PM Actually, Akenaton, while the right-wing has largely succeeded in demonizing the word "liberal," surveys of Americans' opinions on specific issues and policies show that, contrary to what the corporate media usually say, the country is pretty much center-left today. I agree that the progressives and liberals should join the independents, but not by forming a third party. That won't work at the national level , given both our Constitutionals system & the increasing monopolization of people's information sources by big international corporations. But if Green Party and labor advocates & other progressives stay in or JOIN the Democratic party and become active at the local level, they can pull the party to the left from where it is now -- which is to say, toward the REAL "center" of political ideology, which would appeal to a large percentage of independents, if not most of them. The "Tea Party" had a non-trivial degree of success over the last two election cycles, not by becoming a third party but by staying with the Republicans and basically taking over portions of that party at the local and state levels. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Dec 10 - 10:07 PM Bobert: ". ...In order to attract US business, China (and others) will offer to put in all the infrastructure and build the plants for Boss Hog, Inc, and then turn it all over to Boss Hog, Inc. who in turn hires folks in host country... Now if Boss Hog, Inc. had to spend his own money in the US and build a widget factory that factory would be taxed potentially as an asset held by Boss Hog, Inc., right???" Okay, while that's true, what made them look overseas?...Higher domestic taxes, union scales, and regulating the shit out of our manufacturing!(Liberal agenda stuff),..BUT..That being said, I am AGAINST the shipping of our manufacturing base out, and that was to accommodate the Republicans...which I think is STUPID! We need to accommodate the American people, and OUR infrastructure, put people back to work, and have them a fair wage, to get them OFF unemployment, and welfare!! We are spending too much, and not taking in enough, nor are we re-generating our own economy. Printing more money, and keeping people on the 'dole' DOES NOT generate anything, but debt! Now, I hope THIS isn't a item of contention..but it's the obvious situation that is screwing up our economy..oh, that and Fannie and Freddie, and Glass-Steagal...ALL programs to 'help' the little guy..but actually a 'Trojan Horse', 'bait and switch', to pad the 'Fat Cat's' pockets! It's been happening REPEATEDLY!! I really think that this was a conscious plan all along, and the Corporate Fat Cat's exploited both the liberal left, AND the conservative right to pull it off!!!.....and yet, you still argue partisan politics!!!...ITS A FUCKING SCAM!!! Why some of you don't get it, defies gravity! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:13 AM Higher domestic taxes, union scales, and regulating the shit out of our manufacturing! Translation: living wages, safe working environments, clean air and water. How are those things working out in China? And as for that "sort of thing" that happened in Russia in 1917, how'd that work out for the Russian people? Worked for the French pretty well. If we see some heads roll and some CEO blood in the streets, that might change things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: DougR Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:22 AM Genie: Most polls show that liberal voters, at most, number about 20% of all voters in the U.S.. So how in the world can you claim the country is center left? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 08 Dec 10 - 03:57 AM For Ake Bob LH OD... Here is my picture worth 1000 words regarding Obama today vs. the campaign legend. http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/Obamacompromise.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:07 AM Yes I agree with that Doug, our respective populations are much less "liberal" than the media would have us believe and the cost of a "liberal" agenda is simply not viable in a capitalist society. Capitalism, Democracy and equality, are not happy bedfellows. There is good and bad in both liberal and consevative ideologies, and no matter which path we take, it seems that living standards are going to have to fall The nanny state is going to have to be replaced by personal and family responsibility. This may make our lives harder, but I would suggest, more fulfilling for many of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 08 Dec 10 - 08:11 AM Actually, GfinS.... You have parroted the Republican fight song with yer list of reasons why Boss Hog is moving jobs overseas... Corporate taxes??? Sure, the rate is higher than foreign rates *but* with the corporate loopholes and deductions most *large* corporations don't pay any taxes at all... Yeah, the "mom and pop" ones do because they do not have the resources to hire the accountants and lawyers that the big boys use... Union wages??? This one has always been one of then favorites of the right wing... Reality, however, differs considerably from Boss Hog's mythology... Union membership, and thus negotiatin' power has been in decline for the last 35 years... Actual membership is down to less than 7% and most of them are municipal or government employees... Reality is that wages in the US are well under most industrialized nations... Anmd benefits??? Way the heck under... Regulations??? Another of Boss Hog's BIGASS LIES!!! We are no where near as regulated as most European nations and the regs we have we don't particularly enforce... All one has to do is look at the recent coal mine disasters of the oil spill in the Gulf... We have had a 30 year decline in enforcement... The secondary problem here in the US from a lack of regs and/or enforcement of regs is that Boss Hog is slowly but surely poisoning our air and our water... There is no such thing as "clean coal"... And do you know what "fracking" is, GfinS??? I didn'ty think so... Google it up and think how this could very well ruin the water supply in entire regions of the US... No, that, "too many regs" is nuthin' but right wing BS... That dog not only don't hunt but has been dead for 30 years... No, the bottom line is that Boss Hog has owned the US Government going back 30 years... All the rules and/or enforcement are "just right" for Boss Hog... Yeah, he loves to bash the government to take people's attention off the fact that he runs the show but run the show he does... The reason he is taking our jobs overseas is simple... People in the 3rd World can live on $3 a hour!!! That is reality... The rest is bullshit right wing propaganda that Boss Hog has installed as part of our collective cultural consciousness... But it is all based on BIGASS LIES!!! Shame on you for repeating them... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 10 - 08:21 AM Hey, you know what?..The decision was made(finally) to go with the will of the American public(remember them?)..instead of the hard line political left!..Pisses you off, huh? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 10 - 08:23 AM ...and if you think you should pay more in taxes..just send in more...or..shut the fuck up! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 08 Dec 10 - 08:39 AM So where are we going to cut the 50 to 80 billion from the budget to pay for the tax cuts for the top 2 percent? How about a very specific answer to that..or..shut the fuck up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:04 AM Yeah, like I've said, I am willing to pay more taxes, GfinS... I've said that repeatedly... We are the least taxed country in the industrialized world and it is beginning to show... Our infrastructure is crumbling making US less competitive... Our poverty rate is the highest... Our educational system is in a major downward free fall... Did you see the scores that were published yesterday on our educational levels, GfinS??? Very pathetic and should be a wake-up call for our nation... If we don't go back to educating out people, and soon, then we won't have a labor force that will have even the basic skills needed to compete in a global economy... That means, quit bashing education as if folks who have it are the "inferior" people... That has to change or the country is headed toward 3rd World status... So, yeah, I'm willing to pay more to get our country running again... Right now it's like an old car that hasn't been in the shop for years... It's on the verge of breaking down for good... Yeah, you may like living in a 3rd World Country, GfinS, but lots of US don't... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:28 AM Yeah, exactly, TIA... The right has this mythological opinion that there is so much wasteful spending... If you take out every earmark you are looking at 7/10s of 1% of the budget... That's right!!! In other words that's 7 cents per 1000 cents... That ain't gonna fix the deficit... So, yeah, I agree... Where you gonna find the rest of the cuts to finance the tax cuts to the rich??? BTW, the entire purpose of the tax cuts, as explained to US back on 2001, was to create jobs??? Well, what we are seeing is the rich taking that money and stickin' it into savings accounts... No job creation there... Just removing even more money from the money supply... The GNP is dependent on that money being used, not stuck under mattresses... There is alot very seriously flawed, uneducated thinking going on here by those on the right... Very flawed... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:13 AM There is a lot very seriously flawed, uneducated thinking going on here by those on the right... Very flawed... You make the mistake of thinking the right actually believe it. They use it as one of many excuses to shovel money into their masters' pockets. (PS: "a lot" is 2 words) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:51 AM There is enough flawed thinking to go around for everyone. IS the right really flawed in their thinking? Everyone dies so you may as well take everything you can while you are here. Besides if the new immortality treatments do work they aren't cheap. IF the price of getting to be a billionaire merely the downfall of capitalism, democracy and the middle class it is a small rpice to pay. The right wants what they want and thats all they want... Wealth at any cost. Face it, the wealthy have not and do not trickle down. The only time billioniares or empires trickle down and redistribute their core wealth is after death or overthrow. *************************** Bobert forgets the flawed thinking of the left... This is exactly what Obama said yesterday... "I take Mr. Boehner at his word. At the end of the day he certainly won;t choose to vote against raising the debt ceiling. No one wants the the entire faith and credit of the United States Goverment to fail. The total collapse of the American dollar is something no one wants." Barak you poor deluded fool, you must think Boehner has your rational mind set? Dozens of Republicans have vowed to vote against raising the debt ceiling (which would mean the US would not cover its debt under law) All the tea party representatives will not compromise and vote for a new debt ceiling. More flawed thinking was to have a Social Security payroll deduction holiday. The first president to raid the Social Security trust fund was Reagan. Then GHW Bush raided SS and replaced it with and IOU. Then Clinton continued to treat SS money as a slush fund for the entire US goverment and said mondy is spongable. GW Bush wanted to stop SS payments to the Goverment and give it to Wall St. but failed. So did Wall St until it was bailed out. Mpw Pbama is raiding Social Secuity by not even letting payments to be made into Social Security. THe money never even reaches the trust fund. Is it stimulative? maybe a tiny bit. Flawed thinking like taking away all cost of living increases in salary for 2 years will not attract the best and brightest to goverment service. ********************************** The Wealthy twenty years ago had billions in their accounts. They now have FIVE times what they had then and control 40 trillion dollars. Even If hyper inflation hits they will make out just fine. Many of societies woes are due to having too many people. No one wants to think of problems like over population as solvable by introducing deliberate disease, war, holocaust camps, radiation or starvation, but it has happened before. Culling the herd by manipulation of economics is seemingly more humane in comparison. Culling the herd? Yes I said it, get over it. The wealthy have no concern about dead peasants unless they have secretly taken out life insurance on employees (which are called Dead Peasant Policies.) Perhaps there are things you don't know Bobert, same for you Little Hawk, Akenaton. Perhaps the concentration of wealth has a practical intention that you do not know about. What seemed like flawed thinking may be deliberate for the long game. My thinking is that the easiest thing to exploit are people's desires to want MORE. When there isn't any more, you better have a plan to have enough for yourself or perish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Greg F. Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:57 AM Dozens of Republicans have vowed to vote against raising the debt ceiling... That's because aside from being generally under-educated and uninformed, they are for the most part economic ignoramuses & don't understand what they're voting for. The boobocracy is ascendant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:08 PM Bobert's example of Fracking is a good one. While Fracking is as evil and destructive as several atomic bombs to the water supply of NYC and eastern seaboard, you can bet that it will continue on schedule for years beyond the the worst case scenario of the deadly contamination of the Eastern fresh water supply. cuz owners get rich. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: pdq Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:15 PM "...Union membership, and thus negotiatin' power has been in decline for the last 35 years... Actual membership is down to less than 7% and most of them are municipal or government employees..." ~ B-pert Actually, the US workforce is 12.4% union right now. Yes, the private sector is only 7.1% but government employees are close tp 1/3 unionized and they are growing since Obama took over. The Service Employees International Union is growing, but at least 1/2 of their members in the state of Nevada are illegal aliens from Mexico. How does that help fix unemployment in the United States? Union membership percent has declined steadily since WWII which has little to do with the Liberal boogeyman Reagan. It has more to do with the Middle Class expansion. Once there, people don't feel they need the unions. Look for unions to get stronger in the future as the US Middle Class is dying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Greg F. Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:27 PM It has more to do with the Middle Class expansion. Once there, people don't feel they need the unions. Yeah, well, they keep whining about the screwing they're getting from their employers, tho, don't they? Hasn't dawned on 'em, apparently, that if they organized & unionized, they wouldn't be getting screwed so badly. The Boobocracy once again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Stringsinger Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM Ron, Would that this were true however Obama has ties to the military industrial complex and takes the word of the biggest proponents of the two wars who are military generals and not legitimate diplomatic negotiators. Obama had decided become a Republican by carrying on the policies of his predecessor. He is after all a Wall Street guy with ties to the business community there. He is receiving advice from financial advisors who really belong in jail. This will become apparent to ensuing generations and historians. I heartily recommend the movie "Inside Job" which will turn your head around as it did mine. Abramov was a small time hood compared to the guys who Obama listens to now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:32 PM I would suggest that the middle class is not dying. It`s being killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM GfS: About 20% of the American public wanted the >250,000 tax cuts extended. That is NOT the will of the AMerican people. However, folks, let us not lose sight of the positive results Barack traded for, worth taking into account amongst all the smoke and whining. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:43 PM Read about the L-curve here . It is all you need to know about our Fooked American system. The Supreme's "Citizens United" decision gave our country to the people on the vertical arm of the L. And nobody reading this right now is one of them. Don't know all of you personally, but statistically speaking it's a damn safe bet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:45 PM Oh, and the Tea Party? It was created by the vertical arm to fool the horizontal arm into doing its bidding (against their own best interests of course). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:48 PM Correct on both counts, TIA. We are their slaves and they are going to position us to where we beg for sub-minimum wage jobs and to live in their derelict housing (because they will have tossed all the homeowners out and bought up the housing to rent back to us). Look up "neofeudalism". It's where we're going if something doesn't change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:54 PM www.bibliotecapleyades.net/.../esp_sociopol_nwo19.htm Other than the first post on that page, the rest is attributed. THAT makes it worth looking at. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM And remember, just because you`re paranoid doesn`t mean you aren`t being watched. (Someone from the 1960s said that. Don`t recall who.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:20 PM 999's link on the NWO goes here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM Many thanks, Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:58 PM I'm NOT paranoid...they all just say I am. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 08 Dec 10 - 03:13 PM I used to worry that I was paranoid but the voices said to knock it off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:13 PM How do we ordinary people build a genuine democracy when all the sizeable political parties AND the mass media have been bought out by corporate lobbyists, thereby depriving us of meaningful choices at the polls? Damned good question. I tend to look for smaller victories. I now do NOT buy Chinese goods. I avoid most imported goods because I like to support Canadian workers--even though my support doesn`t amount to much. I try to avoid products that do NOT have a union label. I speak to store managers when I`m able because if the manager doesn`t know, little change will occur. If necessary, I boycott whole stores because of unfair trade practices. I always vote, but often I mar the ballot because I do NOT buy into the presented scenarios. I then let my representatives know that I have done that and why. I do write letters to companies that are less than receptive to the idea of fair pay. Alone, I have never changed a policy--but I have tried. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:25 PM All great 999. Also, blow up the TV. And get your news from multiple sources. Encourage others to do the same. And keep speaking up. No sheep! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:27 PM Thank you, TIA. Truth is I haven`t had a TV in at least 16 or 17 years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 10 - 05:27 PM TIA: "So where are we going to cut the 50 to 80 billion from the budget to pay for the tax cuts for the top 2 percent? How about a very specific answer to that.." Well we could start with these PHONY 'stimulus' packages for the rich Wall Street Fat Cats, at the tune of 700 billion..which have created NO 'shovel ready' jobs! Next, cut federal WASTE. Next, stop hiring 'private contractor mercenaries' to fight overseas, Next clean up Freddie and Fannie, next, start fining employers who hire illegals, next, clean up the corruption waste that bilks taxpayers out of billions on tax revenues, next, tax corporations that ship jobs overseas, next, stop ALL padded federally awarded contracts, next, throw out of office ANY and ALL politicians caught misappropriating ANY federally funded funded program..and really give it an effort, instead of giving a pass, because 'everybody is doing it'! Next, let private enterprise expand to create jobs without the crippling 'regulations', that get set in place, to feed the coffers of a new needless 'agency'(?)...cut back on Federal Unions(I mean does the Federal government NEED unions...being as if the government isn't going to be fair to workers, who is?..unless of course its another padded hoax!) Stop borrowing, and paying bogus interest to the 'Federal Reserve, WHICH IS A PRIVATE CORPORATION.....and that's just for starters!!! So, I guess I won't be 'shutting the fuck up' anytime soon...how about you??!!? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 10 - 05:30 PM From: GUEST,TIA Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:58 PM "I'm NOT paranoid...they all just say I am. "...and they're all after me!..because I'm so fuckin' 'hip'..in my mind!..matter of fact, I'm a legend in my own wine! Waving, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 08 Dec 10 - 05:38 PM First it took one income to support a family, then it took two and then 3 to pay for higher education. When 3 times the work for the same usable income was reached the equity in the middle class home was targeted and new laws were bought by the rich to deregulate mortgage laws. In advance of the crash new laws that would make bankruptcy mean nothing and allow creditors to take all they wanted despite declaring bankruptcy were introduced by Bush. Credit card laws allowed fine print fraud and 35% interest and fees. Foreclosures are fraudulently being done despite the fact the bank sold the mortgage note in a bundle years ago (sometimes it got bundled multiple times) A quick foreclosure lets banks get away with taking a property that actually belongs to multiple owners. Obama has passed some credit card reforms but not one banker has gone to jail. Not one, unless you think Madoff had the only ponzi scheme. The banking consumer is now protected by a department that does not even have the power of subpeona. Not one Bush criminal was investigated or prosecuted. Unless the lower rank scape goat tortures counts. On the plus side Obama did save GM which saved a million jobs when all the suppliers are taken into account. Tripling the troops in Afghanistan is for what, show? The bribes and 2 billion borrowed dollars for the off the bidget wars continue. On the plus side Obama did make pre existing conditions an illegal excuse to cancel insurance. Sometimes Obama seems like a man who has just had his wife and children's lives threatened if he didn;t do exactly as he is told. I warned from the start that Obama would be far more moderate than expected and that his main strength would be that of an ombudsmen who is expert in settling local disputes in a beer or coffee summit. His argument for his latest tax cut deal with the Republicans did pusuade me that it is the lesser of two evils. He has however gone from yes we can to "I can;t get the votes in the Senate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 08 Dec 10 - 06:17 PM First of all, the money that went to Wall Street was over 2 years ago so cutting the deficit by eliminating something that isn't even in the budget is rather short-sighted... As for your regs, GfinS... That is bogus argument... We are least regulated economy/government in the industrialized world and slipping down a slippery slope toward the abyss... When aqre yiou going to regulate the polluters??? When our water is all poison??? Yo, mouse... Your prediction that Boss Hog is pushing for a country where people will scramble for "less" than minimum wage is already here... Today's minimum wage is less (after indexing) than that of the 1967 minimum wage!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:43 PM Aside from Amos and precious few others, quite a few Mudcatters need to get out of their own echo chamber and realize that we are not in fact the world--or even the US. Politics is the art of the possible--I wonder who's heard that before. And hands up, those who think Obama would get a better deal with the incoming Congress than he got with the recent agreement so many Mudcatters seem to enjoy fulminating about. Now I've heard that Canada above the US is like a college professor above a biker bar--so Canadians are not expected to identify with the contact sport of US politics. But Americans should understand at least that conspiracy theories don't really help in either understanding--or especially in dealing with--political realities. So the first thing to do is ditch the conspiracy theories. And possibly even consider the possibility that since Obama has shown he is willing to compromise with the Republicans, that puts a lot more of the burden on them to compromise also in the future--or be clearly seen as the problem. A lesson our president definitely has learned. By the way, with (officially still) a Democratic House (lame duck), Democratic Senate, and Democratic president, who do you think voters would blame if unemployment insurance was not extended? Republicans? Give your head a shake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:46 PM Same question for tax cuts for those below $250,000/ yr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:47 PM I think you, Bobert, misunderstood what I was saying about the 'regs'.. I have to agree with Donuel a bit stronger....which causes me to ask him; being as Obama had a super-majority, and the Congress..and very polarized, to do what he wanted (enough still do do WHATEVER he wanted), Do you think, in his agenda, he did accomplish, was also accomplished, by what he DIDN'T do??...In other words, did he mess up by not getting EVERYTHING done that he wanted, or what he DID get, is exactly what he wanted...(and the rest just theater)? OR........ Do you think he is waiting for his second term, to finish it?....AND... A continuation of what Bush would have done?...anyway? (The rest being promises he never intended to keep?) I'm open for your feedback. Some of the the things accomplished were OK, some less, and some less than 'swift'. Anyway, Looking forward to your thoughts. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:11 AM But Obama didn't have a supermajority. He had 60 Dems/Independents, but Dems/Independents don't vote like a mindless bloc the way Republicans do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 09 Dec 10 - 02:19 AM Perhaps you regect the possibility that there is a calculus at work that will get Obama a much sweeter deal. After all the virtual capitulations by the White House it would certainly surprise Republicans if Barack is actually running a double reverse, fake right, razzle dazzle play. Hear me out on how it could work. Republicans always run up a deficit that Democrats have had to pay off first before any social programs can be enacted. Republicans defer to the Democrats to have to raise taxes to save what is left of the economy. Republicans always sit back and laugh at the Democrats having to raise taxes and climb out of their hole, except for the time George H Bush raised taxes through his reading lips. Maybe this time it will be the Republicans who will be left holding the bag and having to raise taxes. So far the Obama compromise has reached everyone's ears from FOX claiming a total capitualtion by Obama and the rest of the media pointing out out the hypocrisy of having to borrow money for our billionaires to get a tax cut. The next step is to slow down the compromise but by Democrats this time. The first democratic filibuster will be a stark contrast to the Republican's one hundred and five filibusters since Obama took office. The compromise is tweaked by the House. The Senate vote does not accept the compromise before Christmas. By this time the rich folks tax cut with borrowed money will be the chief conversation over Christmas week. At Joe Sixpack's house Uncle Joe will argue with Left wing Uncle Charlie but everyone is united when tiny Tim asks at the dinner table why the millionaire Scrooge needed so much when we have so little this year. When The Senate returns there will now be pressure on the Republicans who up till now are one trick ponies who only know how to say NO and they certainly don't know how to take YES for an answer. Now they have to get the tax cut settled before January 31st or all the taxes will go up which will anger the 35 billionaires who pay good money for their Republican Congressmen and women. IF Republicans wait unitl the new members show up they're asses will be hanging out when they propose a bigger deficit for a few billionaire tax cuts. If OBama has to he can declare an emergency and issue an executive order to save 2 million people without unemployment insurance. IF the Republicans try to ram the old compromise though now, all Obama needs do is veto somthing for the first time. Voila a double reverse razzle dazzle and Republicans will feel lucky to settle for the one million dollar cut off for the Tax cuts. Corporations will insist that Republicans get moving since the compromise will give them an investment tax break for 2010 that would have normally been spread out over ten or more years. They will want that money now, not later. Suddenly its the Republicans who are taking the blame for taxes and delays that cost billions. A plan such as this would require canned outrage from various left wing media people so that it would appear that the left is still critical that Obama is giving away the store. Sure a double reverse sounds complicated but the Republicans are going to want to lead when the dance starts on Jan 31st. As they step on each others feet and boast that they are the least likely to compromise, Obama can run the ball in for a touchdown. Even if it does not go as planned Obama is on record for saying that people are going to want to play politics while he only wants what is best for Americans. In the end the billionaires may just have to say bye to their tax cut this year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:48 AM That's one heck of a trick play, Donuel, and think it could work... Unfortunately, I see Congressional Dems just blowin' off a little steam here, maybe gettin' 35 votes fir a filibuster and Obama's deal (???) going thru on a 65-35 vote... Doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see the Bernie Sanders crowd poke Obama in the eye, mind you... I'd love nothin' more... And I'de like to be a fly on the wall while Uncle Charlie and Uncle Joe go at it over Christmas supper... But I am 100% with you that the Dems probably have the "perfect storm" to box the Repubs into a corner... Too bad that Obama won't take that shot 'cause it's there fort the takin'... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: mousethief Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM From your lips to God's ears, Donuel. But I doubt Obama has the moxie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Dec 10 - 02:50 PM So, Donuel, you think Obama, is still running a 'plan', rather than playing out his original plan?...or, his original plan went awry? OR...Its the way he knew, from the beginning? I'm still not sure how you answered my original question, a couple of posts ago. I'm not looking to debate...just wanted your input. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: gnu Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:23 PM Donuel... insightful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: beardedbruce Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:54 PM Obama is certainly no Kennedy... http://www.hudson-ny.org/1714/iran-missiles-in-venezuela |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:08 PM Was out in the barn this afternoon and I keep NPR on the barn radio and they say that the Dem caucus has voted against the Obama "deal"... Of course that does not mean that it won't get thru Congress... Reckon there will be more info on the 7:00 news as to the numbers but if I had to guess it won't be enough to stop the insanity... Nice op-ed by E.J. Dionne in today's Post... His theory is that all this is going to help Obama in the '12 election??? I donno... He has really pissed off the progressive side of his base who won't be knockin' on doors and making telephone calls if Obama doesn't figure out a way to push at least some of the progressive agenda... Right now, Obama is battin' "zero" on the progressive side... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:55 PM I too, listened to NPR today, on this. They sounded highly one sided. I would have preferred, for the sake of reporting the WHOLE story, they should have been presenting BOTH sides. I think to be fair, that the American public should be presented BOTH sides by 'PUBLIC' tax funded radio....don't you? As to my earlier question, isn't anybody going to take it on..even though it was directed to Donuel? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:42 PM To a dogmatic right winger it must sound one sided to mention the fact that the billionaire tax cut can only be paid for with borrowed money that will add up to nearly a trillion. It will cost as much money as Medicare and there is not enough money for both medicare and billionaire tax cuts. !__________________________!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!__________________________! I think the razzle dazzle play is all we will see. The double revers and veto is unlikely. Today I pictured Obama going in to buy a family car. "Hello sir can I put you in this Crossover today?" BO "I'll I was just looking..." "When you buy this car today I will trhow in floor mats and undercoating today, What are you willing to pay? BO "Um, how much is it?..." "Is that your trade over there?" BO "Yes" "Yes?!...Well thats great, let me get the paperwork" BO "Umm" "The MSRP is 78K but with your trade you can drive out today at $68 K!" BO Thats OK I'll keep the trade, I mean my car..." "Thats OK? well thats just great then, can we keep your old car? BO "I suppose we don;t need it anymore if when we get a new car" "OK then that is $78,000 dollars with your trade in minus the factory rebate of" BO "Oh I don;t think we would want to get the factory to rebate anything, Why don;t you keep it? "All rightie then, I see you are a leftie, can you just give me a sample signature right here? BO And this is for...? "ITs for my boss to see if you qualify and such. OB "OK there" Thank you he siad you are a tough customer but we can do compromise if you agree to agree. BO "Agree on what" On floor mats and undercoating! BO "Yes I guesw so." "Excellent that will be$2500 for the mats and undercoating which rounds down to $80.5 K plus lot fees, title, plates, transportation Ramafranges and credit checks. Oh could you follow me to the cashier? Barak Obama "Oh wait, Umm, is the tipping rate20 or thirty percent nowadays? "Its 35% sir, thank you very much." BO "NO - thank You, here is the 35%... I can't wait to tell the wife!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:46 PM sorry about typing and never looking up... lotsa typos... Michelle "YOU WHAT!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:46 PM Cool post, Donuel. Think he's just 'wingin' it'? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:48 PM ..."slow down the compromise..." is a loser. Simple as that. The "double reverse", or whatever Machiavellian title you care to give it, is too clever by half. It's the sort of thing the classic ivory tower denizen would come up with. Bears an amazing resemblance to the essence of playing politics with people's lives. Which by the way is not exactly a great idea now. It also has no bearing on the real world. And it's time for Mudcatters to start living in that real world. The President does. So should we. As he says, however, it's a long game, not a short game. And there are lots of issues to come. As I said earlier, the Afghan war is where you will see the change--this summer. And if Obama is as smart as I think, he will couch it in terms of the deficit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:54 PM SHEEIT, i NORMALLY DON;T LAUGH AT MY OWN STUFF |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:22 PM Yer gonna love this one, Donuel... Bill "Slick Willie" Clinton met with Obama today and the two held a so-called press conference afterwards during which Obama looks down at his watch and makes some excuse about having to meet Michelle, excuses himself leaving the ol' Slickster to finish the press conference???? This sounds like something that if it hadn't happened you would have invented... Have at it... It's yers... lol... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:23 PM Oh, and... ...200!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:41 PM Bobert, I think maybe the public is already being carefully groomed by the great corporate Media for the next big presidential ticket: Hillary (and Bill, of course...). If so, Obama is merely a caretaker. We'll have to wait and see if that is the case or not. I'm not predicting it or making any prophecies...I'm merely mentioning it as a possibility. I think Hillary is the most likely person right now for the job of being next president of the USA...but that could change anytime, depending on circumstances. Anything can happen in 2 years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:23 PM I kinda been thinkin' that Hill 'n Bill would settle into the VP job in '12 and then do White House, Part B, in '16... But if it's '12, so be it... I ain't knockin' on no doors fir them either, BTW... Might of fact, I think the only folks I'd campaign for would be either Dennis or Bernie... Or the Dream Team: Sanders/Kucinich!!! Sorry, Chongz... Yer part of that *other* dream team (wink, wink...) B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:32 PM I would campaign for Kucinich too. I don't know anything about Sanders as yet. As for Chongo, he doesn't need my help. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:52 PM Okay, I listened to some speeches by Bernie Sanders. Yes, I would back him too. Definitely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:57 PM Yeah, LH... I figured you'd be a Bernie guy... Ya' know he is a self-proclaimed "socialist"... I think Bernie and Dennis would be a great team... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:14 PM They would, Bobert. But they'd also be unelectable in corporate-run America...due to lack of funding from you-know-who...and lying attack ads from you-know-who as well if things seemed likely to get out of hand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:26 PM Sanders/Kucinich would certainly be the dream team ... but that's all it could be ... a dream. I agree with L.H. as to why this would only be a dream. The machine is in control and the general populace can be easily swayed and manipulated by this machine either because they are apathetic or just to dull to catch on ass to what is really happening. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:39 PM What??? Ya'll really think that this ol' hillbilly could ever see such a team??? Ha!!! Yeah, it's just the "dream" team... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM You're dreamin' Bob......You need a charismatic leader...you are not preaching to the converted in darkest US. As Hawk says...an extreme left wing team would be slaughtered. And dont forget, socialism has its dangers. Only the charisma and strength of purpose which Fidel Castro embodies has kept the Cuban regime afloat. We are addicted to our "toys" :0) and will resent anyone who tries to take them away. Unity is all important and in Western societies that will involve dropping all the divisive policies which we have been encouraged to adopt by our masters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 11 Dec 10 - 09:29 AM The "extreme left wing" these days, Ake, are just plain ol' garden variety Dems from the 70s... Really nuthin' all that extreme about them unless you think that askin' people to pull their own weight is extreme??? I don't think that is all that extreme... I mean, we had sensible tax policies like that for 40-50 years and no one was lookin' at the US as this extreme leftest place to live??? No, quite the contrary... We have an extreme right wing country with a few moderates trying to get a word in edge-wise... That is the entire problem... The right wing also owns 100% of the media so the ***moderate*** conversations and views aren't even makin' it into the mix... The right wingers always lead with their bullshit "Left wing media" crap... That is the BIGGEST of their BIGASS LIES!!! Heck, if the moderates can't even get any microphone time, how the hell is anyone on the left going to??? So we hear the right wing's comapany fight song blared down upon US 24/7 by it's media... And then comes the biggest insult/assault of them all when the right accuses the rest of us of "not hearing them", "of not listening to them"??? What a joke!!! Helen Keller can't help but hear them from her grave... Their bullshit permeates everything... It's like radiation... You can't hide from it... That is reality.... What isn't reality is this notion that some "extreme left" exists in the US... I wish there were but seems that we've gone so far right that just normal moderates are now considered "extreme left"??? Beam me up, Scotty... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Donuel Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM Everything is relative. Relative to the George W administration with torure, dismissal of the Geneva convention, patriot acts, secret energy fracking deals, NSA and verizon spying without any judge to approve wire tapping, deregualtion of banks - to do harm, limiting bankrupcy laws, freedom zones of public censorship of freedom to assemble, maximizing interest, fruadulent mortgages, naziesque commander in chief performaces, in essense a goverment controled media... a very long list indeed. anyway relative to all that the typical 1958 democrat would now be viewed as WAAAAAY to the left....because the right moved so much. You've heard how GOldwater is a leftie by default today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:24 AM The America that I am referring to, Donuel, is post 60s America... I think that was a dividing line in terms of the development of the country... Since then we have heard over and over about the "liberal bias" in the media and my post was intended to correct that misconception/misinformation... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: saulgoldie Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:35 AM Teddy Roosevelt was more progressive than most of today's Dems. Ask any Republican. They'd love to disown him from the party. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Ron Davies Date: 12 Dec 10 - 09:50 PM Not every Republican would like to disown TR. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Greg F. Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM an extreme left wing team would be slaughtered. Yeah, the CPUSA keeps fielding candidates & they keep losing. (P.S.: "extreme left wing" as you use it, Pharoah, is meaningless gibberish.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: beardedbruce Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:54 PM A third Clinton term? By Marc A. Thiessen Tuesday, December 14, 2010 It was the American left's nightmare come to life: Bill Clinton, the Great Triangulator himself, back at the White House podium on Friday, selling Barack Obama's tax deal with Republicans. As if he'd never left, Clinton held forth in classic form. Asked about the criticism Obama was taking from his own party, Clinton bit his lower lip and empathized. "A lot of them are hurting now, and I get it," he said soothingly. "But we had an election. The results are what they are. The numbers will only get worse in January, in terms of negotiating." Besides, Clinton said, it's a pretty good deal. "A lot of hard-core conservatives think the Republicans gave too much," Clinton said, citing Charles Krauthammer, whom he called "a brilliant man." This is precisely what liberal Democrats believed they had put behind them when they chose Obama over Hillary Clinton in the 2008 primaries. With Obama, the left thought they had finally elected a True Believer. But instead of delivering a second New Deal, it now looks like Obama may deliver the third Clinton term. Liberals see how the president has positioned himself between the "hostage takers" on the right and the "sanctimonious" left, and have discovered - to their horror - that Obama knows how to triangulate after all. Clinton and Krauthammer are right - Obama did cut a pretty good deal. The president managed to convince Republicans (who just campaigned on a platform of fiscal responsibility) to support hundreds of billions in new deficit spending and to abandon their long-standing promise to make the death tax extinct - agreeing to a massive 35 percentage-point tax increase instead. Getting your opponents to abandon two of their core principles just weeks after they thumped you at the polls is pretty impressive. But the left is unimpressed. Instead, it has unleashed a fusillade of pent-up rage at Obama. In recent days, the president has been attacked for everything from freezing federal workers' pay to striking a free-trade deal with South Korea. He has been excoriated for his failure to fight for a carbon tax, amnesty for illegals and a public option in health care. He has been chastised for not closing Guantanamo, not ending the war in Afghanistan and not prosecuting Bush administration officials for war crimes. On The Post's opinion page this month, one liberal activist even called for a Democratic primary challenge - not to defeat Obama, mind you, but to force him to abandon his "record of spinelessness" and embrace a "populist agenda." Apparently, the lesson the left has learned from its historic shellacking at the polls - the biggest loss of seats since 1948 - is that Obama has not been liberal enough. First Democrats reelected Nancy Pelosi as their House leader and tasked her with keeping Obama in line. And now they are busy forming a circular firing squad over the tax compromise. Was losing 63 seats in November not enough for them? Obama is a liberal president governing a center-right nation. A Gallup poll showed that just 20 percent of Americans call themselves liberal, while 42 percent are conservative and 35 percent are moderate. After he spent his first two years in office alienating moderates and energizing conservatives, it should be obvious that Obama cannot succeed by appealing to the 20 percent liberal minority. This is a fact that the president appears to be grudgingly coming to accept. Letting taxes go up and fighting for principle might have pleased the left, but it would have alienated the rest of the country. So Obama cut a typical Washington deal. Both sides got what they wanted. Nobody had to pay for anything. It was Clintonesque - and that is why it has so angered the left. Liberals worry that Obama will follow up by further emulating Clinton and working with Republicans to pass free-trade agreements with South Korea, Panama and Colombia (much as Clinton worked with Republicans to pass NAFTA) - and that this will be followed by more centrist compromises. They want Obama to champion amnesty, cap-and-trade, and other left-wing priorities - and damn the political consequences. But the man who once said he would "rather be a really good one-term president than a mediocre two-term president" might be having second thoughts. Perhaps this is why he invited a "mediocre two-term president" to the White House for a little political advice. Liberals may not care if 2012 is a repeat of the electoral drubbing they took in 2010 - but the guy at the top of the ticket apparently does. WASHPO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 13 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM Yup... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:36 AM Sure, Obama's doing what he thinks will work best for him in the next 2 years...yeah. Naturally. And to do that, he has to thoroughly disappoint that 20% of Americans who call themselves "liberals". But to me it just looks like business as usual in center-right corporate America, the only nation in the world where "socialism" is like a dirty word to most people. That's about what I expected would happen, because that's what always happens in the USA...or it has since Reagan, at least. There is virtually no hope of any genuinely liberal administration taking power in the USA, and there never really was. The election was a great selling job that raised the hopes of American liberals and got all their votes, but I think that's all it was, just a brilliant selling job, and it worked primarily because people had utterly lost confidence in the Republicans after 8 catastrophic years under George Bush...so the Conservatives were very demoralized, and the election of the Democrats was therefore guaranteed, barring some incredible error in their campaign strategy....and that didn't happen. Obama ran a very smart campaign. That did NOT mean the country in general was ready for a liberal government, however! No way. It just meant they were ready to dump the Republicans, that's all. Now the Democrats will do the usual thing that always happens in Washington, and the usual thing primarily benefits the corporate world, the banks, the CEOs...the rich elite. That's what happens in a center-right country. Mind you...it's even happening in basically much more liberal societies like Canada and the UK....so it's absolutely bound to happen in the USA. Obama was elected as a supposed liberal hope. That was a mirage. Wishful thinking on the part of liberals. What he really is is a center-right politician, and he will pursue a pragmatic center-right policy in my opinion, and he will continue to fight unnecessary foreign wars for the military-industrial empire he commands, spend a fortune on the military, and do big favors for the rich corporate and banking elite...while making comforting noises to the general public. The usual story. It's smoke and mirrors, and it's business as usual. Big Business as usual. They run the show. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:46 AM One other thing I should have mentioned: the financial collapse in the fall of 2008 utterly doomed the Republicans. Incumbent governments do NOT get re-elected when the economy tanks on the last few months of their watch. Not a chance. The financial collapse killed any slender hopes the Republicans had left of getting McCaine elected. The continuing financial troubles are now the biggest problem Obama has too. Financial downturns and recessions are a nightmare for any government that's in power, and this downturn isn't just a hiccup...it's a world crisis this time. It's a depression, not a recession. If it continues, then it will wreck the Democrats just as surely as it wrecked the Republicans in 2008. Anyone in power will get blamed for it. Doesn't matter which party they are. Most people have very short memories when it comes to financial pain...they blame whoever is in power NOW. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:02 AM Exactly....the Obama Dems have joined forces with the Republicans to thwart Mrs Palin and the Independents......what exquisite irony. And our Mudcat "liberals" still vilify their only chance of regime change. Talk about voices in the wilderness Hawk?......I give up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:11 AM Sorry the above guest was me! Betcha would never have guessed (gettit?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM What exactly is a "Mudcat liberal", Ake, ol' buddy??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: akenaton Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:28 AM Hard to explain Bob.....but you'll know one when you read their posts. :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Amos Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:53 PM Here's an interesting column on how Lincoln helped bring about the Civil War because he stood firmly against slavery, despite making politically correct noises at the time that he was solely interested in preserving the Union. This is historically telling and a bit of a revelation to many of us who were taught otherwise. But I mention it here to make a point on topic; the true convictions of a principled man may be obscured in a cloud of political noise and tapdancing, without being, themselves, compromised in any degree. I'm just saying... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:14 AM That is indeed a very interesting article, Amos, and it makes good sense. You have practical politics, and you have idealism, and the question is always: which will come to the fore? Practical politics is usually the smart way for any politician to go, but how far will he go when his ideals conflict with practical politics? Many things are said and done merely to create an impression in the public mind, an impression which may be quite misleading, but which yields the desired public response and allows the next step to be taken. I think this happens all the time, in fact, not just in Obama's administration but in all administrations. Things are said and done to create impressions in the public mind while other more pragmatic agendas are put into motion and pass below the public radar. Whether Obama is the genuine progressive idealist you think he is, I don't know. He might be. I think, though, that even if he were, he would be quite unable to realize those ideals in the snakepit of Washington, because it's a snakepit that is run by corporate lobbyists and militarists. Therefore I think one of two things will happen: 1. Obama will cooperate with the corporates and military because he really is their man anyway. or... 2. Obama will cooperate with the corporates and military despite NOT being their man, because they will have their way anyway and he won't ultimately have any real means to stop them having their way...because they own Congress... lock, stock, and barrel (with the exception of the odd maverick idealist like Kucinich or Sanders or Ron Paul.) They own the Congress through the power of their money. Either way, I very much doubt that Obama's administration will prove to be much different from what I described earlier as "business as usual". Hopefully, I am mistaken about that. We'll have to wait and see. I'll be amazed if Obama ever stands up and truly resists the corporates. More than amazed. Gobsmacked. ;-D And I'd be amazed if he stayed alive long after that too...I do not underestimate the absolutely mortal dangers that face any president who has the guts to challenge the real powers that be in the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:47 AM Thanks for the link, Amos... Seems I've made those same arguments arguments on other threads and everyone just joins in with a major push back... Lincoln was not this great president... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:07 AM I've always thought Lincoln was overly confrontational and that he helped plunge the USA into its most damaging war. The reason he's remembered as a great president is simply this: His side won. If they'd lost, he'd be remembered as a catastrophic failure. That's the way it works with national leaders and wars. The winners (like Churchill or FDR) become heroes and saints. The losers get blamed for everything that went wrong. In either case, the public perception is usually an exaggeration of the reality...often a pretty extreme exaggeration at that. Wars between sovereign nations are usually won by the side that has more people, more money, and more resources....regardless of who the leaders are. When one side is is badly outmatched in men, money, and materiel, it loses. That was the case with Germany and Italy and Japan in WWII. It was the case with the South in the American Civil War. They had almost no chance at all of winning that war in the long run. Lincoln could have been a mediocre president, and he'd still have won the Civil War...as long he didn't lose the will to keep on fighting it. (In that respect, however, he was the right man for the North, because he was as stubborn as could be about persisting in fighting that war to final victory, no matter what the cost in lives and destruction. Others, like McClellan, might have negotiated an armistace partway through, and the South might have remained a separate nation in that case...at least for awhile.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:34 AM Yeah, lotta people say that the unCivil War had already begun when Lincoln took office and to a certain extent, it had... But Lincoln had choices that could have de-escalated the conflict... Re-supplying Ft. Sumpter was one such choice and rather than de-escalate, Lincoln went the path of greater hostility... That was 100% on Lincoln... I mean, there was an international movement to end slavery going on starting in the 1840s... Pressures would have ended slavery here in the US (notice I didn't say "the South" but the "US") had the war been averted... (Horrors, Boberdz!!! You sound like you are pro-slavery!!!) Bull feathers... I am pro-humanity and looking back on what occurred I doubt that anyone who is pro-humanity can argue that the costs were worth it... That's why I don't go to battle fields or glorify this terrible failure of mankind... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:40 AM The Civil War, and Lincoln, had more to do with the rights of secession, than it did with slavery. The slavery issue, was just the palatable excuse....and most 'depthy' historians agree. Whatever. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:42 AM Yup... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama a Big Disappointment... From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:06 AM It was about a number of very serious issues. The slavery issue was about the handiest one among them for generating excitement and outrage, I think, and politicians will always go straight for those emotions like a dog for a plate of fresh sausages, because they know they can get people motivated to support them with those emotions. |
