BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:33 AM

"I think it unacceptable to use labelling and name calling in place of argument."
Describing racial steroetyping as racism is neither labelling nor name-calling - it is telling it like it is
Please tell us why claiming "all male Pakistani Muslims" as having "a culturally implanted tendency".... is not racial stereotyping.
"Your post today does not challenge any opinion in any way except to say that it is racist."
The challenges I have made throughout this thread have been repeated over and over and you have ignored them - all that is left to us (and I am not alone here) is to describe them as the are.
"Suppose the cultural explanation were true."
If it were proven beyond doubt it would not be racist, but it would have race implications; that is why it should not be made irresponsibly or maliciously, without proof; no such proof has been offered.
"You are not sure yourself it is not true."
I am not a sociologist so I cannot prove it to be true or false, so I would not dream of making such a claim.
You are not a sociologist and have admitted your ignorance of the subject of this thread, yet you have offered it as your opinion without proof, and as you say, without the knowledge to back your claim up.
It goes against everything I believe about race and culture and everything I have come to believe from reading and from personal experience of the Pakistani people.
Your statement, if taken seriously, would effect every single member of the Pakistani population in Britain, male, female, old, young.. all would be effected if it was thought that every man in their community was culturally a potential paedophile not to be trusted near children.
If it were, as you describe, a cultural trait, then it would have manifested itself throughout every Pakistani community throughout the world, never mind Britain - it has not, therefore I believe it to be the piece of racist nonsense I have always thought it to be.
You have put it forward as your opinion - without proof and without even offering a suggestion why you believe it has not appeared elsewhere - why? (and please don't hide behind the opinions of others, they are not here to make their case, nor are the people, (including those from the ethnic minorites who took offense at the statement)?
"How can non racist people propose a racist opinion?"
If they make racist, unsubstantiated statements, then they are racist - you have made racist statements and failed to substantiate them...... A claim to be non-racist needs to be proved, not just claimed.
Pakistanis in Britain are both the poorest and the most likely to be abused; your atatements can only add to these facts.
Your own attempt to produce a witness, Barnardos has warned of the dangers of making this a racial issue - this time not to the commnity as a whole, but to the victims of abuse, yet you persist in doing so - I ask again, are they not experts enough to have their opinions regarded, or even acknowledged by you.
"Try to discuss this issue without using the word "racist" Jim."
If it's got horns, moos and gives milk, it's probably a cow.
I suggest you address youself to the points raised here by Jon and Don and everybody else on this thread who has put up reasoned and lucid arguments against your claims, and answer them, for yourself if not for the rest of us.
If the forthcoming report backs any claim you have made here it might dent our egos and make us re-think some of our ideas, and I am sure you will take great pleasure in gloating over it, but it will hopefully be the result of serious research and not random and unsubstantiated agenda-driven anecodtal and circumstantial incidents and personal opinions, and will not in any way exuse your behaviour on this thread, which has been to target one specific cultural group - the dangers of which many of your own 'witnesses' have been keen to point out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:14 AM

OK Don, I will ask you again in a couple of days when even you will not be able to deny it.

Jon, the people who gave their opinions on this were responsible, intelligent, eminent people.
Not dangerous people.

Don, it is not a lie that I lack knowledge of BP culture.
Are you seriously suggesting I am secretly an expert?
On 22nd June you said "We know you aren't lying as to your ignorance of the culture, "

I accept what the experts say because of their authority on the subject Don.
As with black holes.
I believe they exist because people like Hawkins say so.
I believe the cultural link exists because people like Straw, Cryer, Saffiq, Ahmed and Allibhai-Brown say so.

Do you dismiss the opinions of Hawkins and them Don?
On what grounds?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:45 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:43 PM

Don, I never lie.
That phrase "culturally implanted" first appeared in your post of 12 Feb 11 - 07:52 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.
There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.""

In point of fact, I joined this discussion on 25th January, so could not by any means have "invented" the cultural link. You did that for yourself. The first post in which I directly challenged your viewpoint was 28th January 0624.

Would you now be honest for a change and admit that 24th Jan precedes 12th Feb, that you did indeed LIE? And would you now withdraw that untrue statement and apologise?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM

""I would really like to know how you are certain that the over-rep is not linked to negative attitudes to females and repressive marriage practices.""

You need treatment for that selective deafness Keith.

The over rep, as you call it, is purely your own idea. None of your "knowledgeable sources" have commented on it as yet.

When working on statistics you need to be aware of certain basic facts.

Statistics only work if they are based on a sufficiently large, and representative, sample.

In this case you have neither, rendering the conclusion which you have drawn suspect in the extreme.

Your oft repeated "massive over representation" is based upon flawed thinking and flawed mathematics.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""Don, you cut my sentence in half.
That is so deceitful it is tantamount to a lie.

""Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb".""

However any reasonable person reads that post, the sense is the same. You are confirming YOUR belief in the concept which I have underlined, and your reasons for that belief are irrelevant. IT IS YOUR BELIEF you are expressing!

then we have the following from you:-

""I do not link offending with culture, because I lack the knowledge.
That is a FACT and not up for discussion.""

Those statements are mutually exclusive, so tell us please which one is the lie?

Finally, please remember that I have a life outside of Mudcat, so if it takes a couple of days to get the answers your attention seeking needs, it is not because I have nothing to say, but because I have, at the time, better things to do than boost your ego.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:51 AM

Suppose the cultural explanation were true.
Is it still racist?

Keith, if the UK wide statistics were collected, studied and the case was proven, it would be fact.

Arriving at this type of explanation without that is, at best, dangerous speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:37 AM

No Jim.
I think it unacceptable to use labelling and name calling in place of argument.
Your post today does not challenge any opinion in any way except to say that it is racist.

That is the only argument you have.

Suppose the cultural explanation were true.
Is it still racist?
You are not sure yourself it is not true.
How can non racist people propose a racist opinion?

Try to discuss this issue without using the word "racist" Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:20 AM

And I forgot
Whenever somebody points out the logical conclusions and the consqences of yur argument you squeal "victimisation".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:20 AM

I have taken responsibility for my belief in the over-rep, and supplied objective evidence.

I have never stated that the cause is cultural.
How could I know?
There must be a cause, and what else might it be Jim?
Answer please.

I reported the opinions of people, known to be totally anti racist, that it does derive from culture.

What is wrong with them forming that opinion from their own personal first hand experience?
What is wrong with me restating it here?
Who are these people you claim to exist who disagree?

Answers please Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM

"you suddenly have nothing to say."
There really is no point Keith.
Whenever you are challenged you refuse to take responsibility for your statements and blame them on somebody else.
Your statements are racist because it is racist to depict "all male Pakistani Muslims" as having "a culturally implanted tendency".
Wheoever else may have said this (the fascist press is full of such statements)| - you have said it here, it is your opinion, it is racial stereotyping of the Pakistani Muslim culture, it is a racist opininion supported by you.
Whoever puts forward such a statement without providing proof to back it up (that all male British Pakistanis are culturally inclined towards paedophelia), without knowledge (as you have freely admitted) and without proof (which you have not provided) is guilty of making a racist statement.
Generalising on a whole community's culture in this way is extremely dangerous and has led to the discrimination, persecution and even death - again - ask the parents of Stephen Lawrence if you doubt it.
"suddenly have nothing to say."
I suggest you count the number of people who have participated in this thread, have argued with you and now have "nothing to say", not because you have won your argument but because you do not listen to others - something that has been obvious on every thread I have been involved with you on, and a constant complaint of other participants.
Prove your point (that all male British Pakistanis are culturally inclined towards paedophelia), not with the argument that it must be true because such-and-such-a-person said it, but with facts you have gathered and with knowledge of your own.
For every 'expert' who has supported the idea in the examples you have provided, there are hundreds with on-the-spot experence and a claim to 'expertise' who have objected to it as 'racist'.
NOW TELL US WHY YOU BELIEVE IT.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:12 AM

Don, challenged to discuss the issues instead of just trying to smear me, you suddenly have nothing to say.
Just like Jim.

I would really like to know how you are certain that the over-rep is not linked to negative attitudes to females and repressive marriage practices.
Even Jim is not certain, but he brands me a racist for just accepting that it might be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM

Enough about me Don.

Have you reconsidered the reality of the over-rep based on the copious evidence I have provided?
How massive do you think it might be?
On what do you base your opinion Don?
Lox?
Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM

Don, that post you and Jim keep quoting was made way back in frosty February.
On the 13th.
Out of the hundreds of my posts you have to seize on one because it looks bad if you edit out the crucial part.
On the 11th of Feb I posted this.
"I suspect, based on the testimony of knowledgeable people, that there is a cultural explanation."

On 14th Feb I said,
"Lox, how can you claim I am making a racial hypothesis?
I am not making it, and it is about a culture within a racial group."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 04:56 PM

Don, you cut my sentence in half.
That is so deceitful it is tantamount to a lie.

""Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb".

It was you, Don, who claimed that blaming culture was to accuse all.
I went along with you because it could not apply to me.
I did not blame culture.
Others did.

So all those anti-racist Pakistanis are really anti-Pakistani racists according to you, but it still has nothing to do with me.
I am telling you, I have no opinion on the cultural cause.
No-one can dispute that.
End of discussion.

It is amusing that you think I might really be an expert on BP culture, and just lying about my ignorance!

You are becoming as deranged as Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM

""I do not link offending with culture, because I lack the knowledge.
That is a FACT and not up for discussion.""

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""I do now believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency.....""

One of these statements is true, and the other is a LIE!!, and it doesn't even matter which is which.

You made BOTH statements.

You later stated ""I DO NOT LIE!

You give the most convincing imitation of a liar in the history of the English language.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 07:04 AM

Another JimPost.
Not one word about any issue under discussion.
The whole post is about me, and nothing else.
You are a sad, obsessed man Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 06:47 AM

"Sorry, but what else can be said on it Jim?"
Nothing, until you start to listen what others have to say, I've been surfing through past postings and the number of people who have said this to you nearly, (but not quite) outnumbers the number of time you have crawled behind the words of others to avoid taking responsibility for your own statements.
Until you do you remain a sad induividual who appears to have no existance other than the self-important image you appear to have constructed at the keyboard.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:52 AM

I have expressed my own opinion on the over-rep,citing copious objective evidence in support.

Evidence for a cultural cause can only be subjective.
I have accepted the subjective evidence of eminent people with knowledge and experience.
I have no subjective experience of my own to call on.
I can not and do not hold an opinion on that, however much hysterical shrieking you throw at me.
Sorry, but what else can be said on it Jim?

You are not certain yourself remember.
"How do you know with such certainty....."
"I don't;"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:12 AM

"I was agreeing with you, perhaps going too far to find common ground."
WHAT!!!! Utter bloody nonsense.
You have accused ALL (not some, not a few... ALL) Pakistanis of having a "genetic implant"; we responded to what YOU said, not the other way round. It is your opinion and it is racist stereotyping which involves the whole culture and would put them all under suspicion if it were to be taken seriously - it is a small-minded, nasty attack on an ethnic group who have enough to put up with without all this shit.
"Please quote Vaz or anyone denying an over-rep or a cultural explanation."
Why - you don't take notice of what people say unless it fits your own preconceptions - you show me who has suggested MASSIVE over-representation - that is your opinion and yours alone (on this thread anyway - easy enough to find in racist literature.)
"Instead of debating,"
You have had your debate from everybody (the majority) who has opposed you on this thread and you've ignored the points made, then accused people of not making any - now you are whining about being described as racist - THE POINTS HAVE BEEN MADE - READ THEM AND ADDRESS THEM INSTEAD OF SKULKING BEHIND CAREFULLY SELECTED (And misquoted) EXPERTS.
There is nothing more cowardly than defending arguments with "It must be true - somebody told me" - which is the whole basis of your defence of your misrepresentations and gross overstatements.
Explain how your "ALL PAKISTANIS" is not a racist statement.
"Enough about me."
Once again - it's not about you; a perfect example of how you totally ignore what people have said.
"The report will not be saying why any group is over-represented"
You mean they will not be claiming a "genetic implant" and you will be alone in your wisdom - again?
Can you predict whether they will be giving us a "massive" over-representation
This is becoming pathetic - again - answer some questions instead of trying to wriggle off your hook.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 02:44 AM

Jim,
It was you three who said that to blame culture was to accuse ALL.
I was agreeing with you, perhaps going too far to find common ground.
Others, not me, stated that culture was to blame, thus accusing all according to you..
I accepted what they said only because of their knowledge, stature and eminence.
It did not, and could not come from me.
Anyway, I am telling you that I do not have an opinion on this.
End of discussion.

Please quote Vaz or anyone denying an over-rep or a cultural explanation.

Instead of debating, you just try to present me as a racist.
I have asked you to stop.
MtheGM has asked you to stop.
Joe has asked you to stop and removed your posts.

You just carry on obsessively.

Enough about me.
The over-rep. How do you know it is false?

We are about to find out anyway.
The report will not be saying why any group is over-represented, just establishing the pattern of offending.

"anecdotal and circumstantial rag-bag of gatherings"
Wilmer? Bindel? Allidhai-Brown?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM

Jim, "Say it again and I will put up the proof of your nasty lie."
Please do - from your protestations it should be very easy to show me why:
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency....." does not implicate every male Pakistani in Britain.
Of course it does, you stupid, stupid man - if a person is culturally inclined to something then it is possible he will "succumb" to it; YOUR OWN WORDS:
"only a tiny minority succumb", which makes tham all untrustworthy where underage young women are concerned; THAT IS THE DIRECT INFERENCE OF WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN
"but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people"
Why is their knowledge any more knowledgeable than all the other 'knowledgeable' people who have objected strongly (Keith Vaz for instance, who has is an Asian who has served on committees specificaly dealing with the problem,unlike Straw, whose job it was as Home Secretary to listen to what they had to say.
You have used the fact that some of your 'expers' originated from the communities; why not Vaz, or all those community leaders living and working in the communities?
Can you specify what your experts have put forward to convince you of their superior knowledge - other than the statement its in with your own opinions?
"It is those who say culture is responsible."
You say the culture is responsible - in black and white
I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency....."
isn't that what you wrote, does that not say that you believe all male Pakistanis have a tendency towards paedophelia, have I suddenly developed dyslexia, did somebodty else write it, are you a victim of your own behaviour of sending false postings under a different identy - PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW "ALL" DOES NOT IMPLICATE EVERY BRITISH PAKISTANI.
We have questioned your analysis of information coming from mainly outsiders - Straw's statement gave deep offence to the communities concerned because it generalised the behaviour of the whole culture, but even then he drew back from making it racial stereotyping with his "testosterone" and "white paedophiles" qualification which you carefully removed.
Stop lying - I have carefully taken everything I have said in since you went running to the adjudicator from your own statements - show me where I have not.
"I say there is a massive over-rep"
And I say there is not - certainly not from the miniscule number of examples from a population of 1.2 million.
"You say there is not but do not say how you know this."
I have said from te beginning that the randomly collected anecdotal and circumstantial rag-bag of gatherings that you have dredged up, and certainly the unqualified opinions does not constitute evidence.
Let's see if next week's report claims that all British Pakistanis are culturally inclined to paedophelia as you are claiming, making them a risk to all underage women within their reach, or that he findings come up with a "massive" or "masive-massive" over-representation
You have still no answered any of my requests for clarification - please do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 02:23 PM

Jim, I said,
"but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people"
That is the only reason. I believe them.
According to you three that accuses the whole community.
OK, but it is not me doing the accusing.
It is those who say culture is responsible.
And that is not me Jim.
I state this as fact.
I DO NOT HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT IT.
FACT.
NO DEBATE.

Jim, " I said you have represented ALL BRITISH PAKISTANIS AS POTENTIAL PAEDOPHILES"
You did and it is a Jim lie.
Say it again and I will put up the proof of your nasty lie.

Enough about me now Jim.
Back to the debate.
I say there is a massive over-rep and have provided lots of evidence.
You say there is not but do not say how you know this.
Will you please tell us so we can discuss it.

Please do not ask me about why there is an over-rep. as you know I have no opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 02:02 PM

"Don made it up."
What Don said exactly was:
"However small the number of those who succumb to the temptation, and however slight that tendency may be, it does not alter the fact that you believe that all male Pakstani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency toward paedophile rape."
You confirmed his statement with:
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb"
He summed up your attitude to British Pakistanis - you confirmed that was the case = you hold racist views - full stop.
"If it is "racial stereotyping" I am glad I did not say it."
He put it as a hypothesis - you confirmed = it is your view of British Pakistanis - full stop.
"I have given loads of evidence, chapter and verse."
You must now to have used the term "massive over-representation around 50 times. Whenever you have been asked to produce a ource of the statement you have cringed behind the excuse that it is not your statement but qualified "experts".
Nobody has claimed there to be 'massive over-representation' - that is your statement and yours alone = unless yo can produce an expert who has claimed there to be "massive" (or even "massive, massive") over-representation, you have made another racist statement = you are guilty of deliberate exaggeration to make a racially stereotypical point - feel free to show this is not th case.
"You said I accused BPs of paedophilia."
You are lying - I said you have represented ALL BRITISH PAKISTANIS AS POTENTIAL PAEDOPHILES which is, in fact worse - you can recognise a paedophile by his behaviour, a potential paedophile remains a hidden threat until he "succumbs" to his "cultural" perversions (the quotation marks are deliberate - they indicate your openly expressed opinion).
The fact thatyou continue to distort and lie about what I and others have said only serves to confirm me in my views that not only have you no honest argument, but you know you have none and continue to mainipulate as you have from the beginning.
"I quoted you verbatim Jim."
We have asked you to explain why, if Pakistanis are culturally inclined to paedophelia, the "massive, massive" over- representation and that the crime is overwhelmingly a "Pakistani" one is not found throught Britain; you say you "don't know", yet persist with your argument; why?
I have always believed such generalisations to be racial stereotyping - if the forthcoming report is based on nationwide research involving Pakistani communities throughout Britain and it comes up with your "cultral" explanation it will provide food for thougth, but until then, my opinion will remain the same as it has always been. Whenever you have been asked to produce proof you have cowered behind experts, not bothering to explain their expertese and not even acknowledging that there ar just as expert "experts" who find these conclusions not only wrong but racially offensive.
Your 'evidence' from 'experts' has been carefully selected and sifted to fit your own preconceptions, and even then yo have felt necessary to remove vital contradictions, such as:
"Straw added: "These young men act like any other young men. They're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits."
"NEVER CLAIMED OR BELIEVED BY ME"
And you continue to lie when the evidence:
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb".
That is what you said - if it doesn't mean that every Pakistani male is a potential paedophile due to his culture - what else can it possibly mean
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 11:57 AM

"You have failed to explain where the Pakistani implant statement came from"

Don made it up.
The 3 of you said that any cultural explanation meant that.
I reported such an explanation, but it was not mine.

If it is "racial stereotyping" I am glad I did not say it.

"You have failed to explain where the "massive (and massive-massive) over-representation came from."
Not true.
I have given loads of evidence, chapter and verse.

"You have failed to explain why pointing these and other anomolies in your behaviour to you is lying"
You said I accused BPs of paedophilia.
That was and is a lie.
I never did, and don't.

"lying throughout this thread by disowning something that you have written,"
I stand by all my posts.

"You have failed to explain why editing texts to make your case is not racist manipulation"
Dishonest Jim.
I left out something that was not in dispute.
I had quoted THAT ACTUAL PASSAGE both before and after that incident.

"You are now trying to create a diversion by claiming something I have not said and I do not believe"
I quoted you verbatim Jim.
Here it is again,
"and how do you know, with such certainty, that it is not due to attitudes to women and marriage practice?"
I don't;

"You are now desperately clinging to the hope that next week's report might substantiate your case that Pakistainis are massively over-represented in these crimes (QUITE CONFIDENT), that every Pakistani male is a potential paedophile due to his culture,(NEVER CLAIMED OR BELIEVED BY ME) which, in some way their culture has made them do it (THAT CAME FROM EXPERTS)(despite the fact that this flaw does not seem to affected Pakistanis in other parts of the country - which you have also failed to explain (I CAN NOT)) - let's see, shall we??.(LOOKING FORWARD TO IT JIM!)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 09:13 AM

You have failed to explain where the Pakistani implant statement came from
You have failed to explain why such a statement is not racist stereotyping
You have failed to explain where the "massive (and massive-massive) over-representation came from.
You have failed to explain why pointing these and other anomolies in your behaviour to you is lying
You have failed to explain why you have not been lying throughout this thread by disowning something that you have written, when it has been brought in front of us all.
You have failed to explain why editing texts to make your case is not racist manipulation
You are now trying to create a diversion by claiming something I have not said and I do not believe
You are, as Don has pointed out, attempting to wriggle off a hook your of your own making that yur own statements have put you on
You are now desperately clinging to the hope that next week's report might substantiate your case that Pakistainis are massively over-represented in these crimes, that every Pakistani male is a potential paedophile due to his culture, which, in some way their culture has made them do it (despite the fact that this flaw does not seem to affected Pakistanis in other parts of the country - which you have also failed to explain) - let's see, shall we??.
All a bit of a mess really!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 07:16 AM

"and how do you know, with such certainty, that it is not due to attitudes to women and marriage practice?"
I don't;

That was your answer Jim.

I have only accepted what has been said on the culture thing.
THEY linked it to culture.
YOU say that accuses the whole community.
I am not involved.

If and when the over-rep is proved true I am vindicated.
You have denied it from the start, and accused me of racism for believing in it.
You will be proved wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 06:47 AM

"Turned this into a discussion about me not the issues."
No; I am discussing what you have said which is In your own words "Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" smearing every singly Pakistani in Britain
"I say there is an over-rep in specified area for this crime."
No - you say there is a "massive" or even "massive - massive" over-reprentation. Even if it were to be proven, which it hasn't to date, this is a deliberate and calculated "over-representation" on your part, again to smear the Pakisani people.
"You and Lox and Don said that is an attack on whole community."
It is - when you have written ALL as you have.
"You said that you are not sure it is wrong remember. "
No I didn't - you have proposeed a hypothesis which I have always rejected as racist - it is up to you to prove it is true, otherwise we could all go around claiming the moon is made of cheese - where is the evidence for your claim (and now you will scurry behind experts).
As you say - the over - rep is an "idea" - I don't accept it until it is proven, which it might be, but until it is WHERE'S YOUR EVIDENCE.
As many experts as you can produce there are far mor who reject the idea as racial stereotyping.
You continue to refuse to produce evidence for your "ALL" and yiour "MASSIVE"
AND YOU EVEN CLAIM YOU DON'T TELL LIES AFTER IT HAS BEEN PROVED WITH YOUR OWN WORDS THAT YOU DO
As the song says
It's a lie, it's a lie,
It's a lie, lie, a lie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 04:15 AM

OH NO!
You have done it AGAIN Jim.
Turned this into a discussion about me not the issues.
STOP!

I say there is an over-rep in specified area for this crime.
Why do you think there is not?

I do not have an opinion on why.
That is a FACT and not up for discussion.

The listed people linked the offending with aspects of culture.
You and Lox and Don said that is an attack on whole community.
If it is, it comes from listed people not me.
I do not link offending with culture, because I lack the knowledge.
That is a FACT and not up for discussion.

Tell us your opinion on the over-rep idea, and on the listed people.
Not on me please.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 03:09 AM

"Your final example suggests Asian- Afro Carribean Kurdish Turkish.... - you have targeted Pakistanis.
This is racist stereotyping. "

Asians includes (conceals?) BPs.
That piece was the first I have found linking other groups in other regions.

It was made by the Panorama programme, the oldest current affairs programme in the world and the flagship of BBC investigative journalism.

Should we not consider their findings Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM

"Yes you do lie - you have been claiming throughout that you never suggested that the Pakistani culture links them to paedophilia"
I do not lie.
Your statement IS a lie.
I have stated repeatedly, since January, that I do not regard paedophilia as an issue in this.

Jim, if I say I do not have knowledge of their culture to form an opinion about it, who are you to challenge me on it.
I know better than you I think!

"YOU HAVE YET TO TELL US WHICH knowledgeable people have suggested a culturally implanted tendency"

Yes I have Jim.
I have listed people who say this behaviour comes from aspects of the culture.
Then I did make an assumption that the whole community is exposed to that culture.
If that is wrong Jim, I will withdraw that bit.
Is it wrong Jim?
Are some not aware that their own girls are off limits?
Are some not aware of the marriage practices and of the family and community pressure to abide by them?

If, as the listed people state, culture is an issue, will it not be an issue for everyone in that culture.
If you can show that to be wrong, I will reconsider.
You said that you are not sure it is wrong remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:24 PM

"No, but why was he making a statement at all Jim?"
He (who has previously claimed immigration is too high) actually said "we have to be aware of certain characteristics of various ethnic communities"
He (unlike you) doesn't state which ethnic communities, nor does he (unlike you) attempt in any way to link it with culture.
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb"
We have suggested that the reason for such crimes may be linked to the social and economic conditions of these communities - nowhere does your example contradict this.
YOU HAVE YET TO TELL US WHICH knowledgeable people have suggested a culturally implanted tendency - can you please do so now This is a statemeny you have said you believe? - nobody else has made such a racist statement - if they have, can you plese tell us who?
Yes you do lie - you have been claiming throughout that you never suggested that the Pakistani culture links them to paedophelia - your statement here proves that you have lied - it is your statement - nobody else to hide behind.
Your final example suggests Asian- Afro Carribean Kurdish Turkish.... - you have targeted Pakistanis.
This is racist stereotyping.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:54 PM

I can not make the link work.
Hit the "google search" button on this link please.
It is dated 2008 and gives a breakdown of which groups are over-represented in which areas, for this crime.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-545289/Muslim-leader-accuses-police-cautious-stopping-Asian-gangs-pimping-white-girls.ht
His comments come as Professor David Barrett of University of Bedfordshire also raised deep concerns about the issue in the BBC1 programme.
He claimed evidence suggested that those operating the practice were "absolutely" likely to get away with it.
The programme will controversially reveal the ethnic pattern of the crime which is largely Asian in northern England, Afro-Caribbean in the West Midlands and elsewhere white, Turkish and Kurdish.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-545289/Muslim-leader-accuses-police-cautious-stopping-Asian-gangs-pimping-white-girls.html#ixzz1QEGBkQhF

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:43 PM

Don, I never lie.
That phrase "culturally implanted" first appeared in your post of 12 Feb 11 - 07:52 PM

Jim, as I said, I only believed that because it was being stated by people who know far more about it than we do.
Not my idea.
Not an idea I could ever have come up with.
My case was just the over-rep.

"Nowhere does this MP mention over-representation"
No, but why was he making a statement at all Jim?
What was the point of it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 02:33 PM

""It was coined by Don T.
That is why it was in quotes Jim.""

That is an out and out LIE!

You coined the phrase after my taking issue with your misquote of Jack Straw's statement, and I took issue with it because you were referring somewhat indiscriminately to "BPs, Muslims, etc.

Your initial statement re "a cultural, not religious or racial tendency" has been quoted several times.

Incidentally, all of this went considerably further than any of your so-called sources did in attributing this to the Pakistani culture, so I am at a loss to understand how you can ask anybody to accept your alibi that you merely report others' words.

The fact is that you hooked yourself on a biased theory and have spent several months wriggling vainly to get of that hook.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 01:45 PM

Nowhere does this MP mention over-representation or cultural deformity - that remains your analysis.
A reminder of your own stated position in your own words
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 03:21 AM

BBC TV last night.

Children's Minister, Tim Loughton, claims that "closed communities" have sometimes hampered investigations into child sexual exploitation.

Mr Loughton made the comments in an interview for the BBC Politics Show in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, which has been investigating claims that girls as young as 12 have been targeted by organised gangs.

Tim Loughton told me: "In many cases we are dealing with some closed communities. Closed in terms of things being able to go on under the radar and away from the public glare."

Children's Minister Mr Loughton acknowledged that child grooming was not a problem exclusively associated with one particular community, but added: "I think that political correctness and racial sensitivities have in the past been an issue.

"I want to send out a message loud and clear that although we have to be aware of certain characteristics of various ethnic communities and be sensitive as to how we deal with them, a BME (Black Minority Ethnic) tag is not an excuse for us not to investigate vigorously any abuse that may be going on."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13879584

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 02:57 AM

Speaking of tolerance, I should not have called Jim an ignorant fool.
He is neither.
He is vindictive however, and my outburst was born of weariness and frustration with having to constantly refute his groundless jibes of racism.
But what else can he say?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 01:55 AM

John,
"it seems English people can no longer live with their neighbours."

This issue shows that the exact opposite is true.

Britain has welcomed in millions and has become an extraordinarily mult-ethnic and multi-cultural nation.
It is probably the most tolerant nation on Earth.

It is in fact misguided tolerance that has allowed this crime to continue unreported and uninvestigated for so many years.

Subject: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,John Orford
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 12:03 AM

Google found 435 returns for "cultural implant". Not exactly loud applause. The whole effect of this exchange is sad - it seems English people can no longer live with their neighbours. Many confuse local culture with the teachings of Islam. The Quran teaches that women are equal with men, though not identical. So some Muslims forget this? True; some Christians forget "love thy neighbour" too. Presumably the atheists have no guidance except themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:39 PM

The massive over-representation IS my theory, based on the overwhelming mass of evidence that I have presented.

I have no opinion on why.
Others have.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:35 PM

Jim,
"you are someone taking part in a debate and passing on YOUR opinions."

No Jim. I am someone in a debate passing on the opinions of better informed people.

Jim"I have asked you to provide to your source for the creepy phrase "cultural implant" "

It was coined by Don T.
That is why it was in quotes Jim.

And you always cut my sentence in half Jim.
The second half was, "but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."

It was not my theory Jim.
I know nothing about BP culture or black holes.
If I am discussing either I will draw on the opinions of experts.

You yourself have said you are not certain the theory is wrong.
You say it is not racist for The Guardian to report it.
But if I quote The Guardian, or a famously anti racist BP, I am racist?

I am not racist, I am just making a case you can not answer.

Your accusations are just vindictive and nasty, because I have shown you to be an ignorant fool.
In a few days Ceop will confirm that Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 04:18 PM

No Keith - No Keith - your posting, your words, your opinions = your responsibility.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are not a radio or television station or a newspaper, you are someone taking part in a debate and passing on YOUR opinions.
I have asked you to provide to your source for the creepy phrase "cultural implant" and the nearest I got was "cochlear implant" coincidentally from Pakistan.
If they are not you, perhaps you might supply direct sources for "cultural implant" or massive over-representation.
The phrase CI, along with all its racial implications, (which could have come straight from Nineteen-Eighty-Four or The Manchurian Candidate), along with "massive (or massive, massive) over-reprentation, is entirely your own work expressing all your own opinions - 'be a man, my son, face up to your responsibility.'
"Was The Guardian racist and wrong to report that last piece Jim?"
Nope - the Guardian is a newspaper delivering the news in a balanced, responsible way, sadly lacking in your postings - I used to be a regular reader.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:34 AM

None of it comes from me.
I just report it, as does, Guardian, BBC etc.
I am no more racist than they are.

I do not know anything about their culture.
Just what is reported.
Was The Guardian racist and wrong to report that last piece Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:29 AM

"But I have not done this Jim."
Yes you have and you continue to do so.
This latest turn is sheer patronising and deeply insulting garbage aime at Pakistanis.
Thanks for clarifying your position.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:08 AM

A serious case review, quoted without comment in the Guardian.

"It also found issues of culture, ethnicity and identity were a feature in both the victims, who were mostly white, and the perpetrators, who were of Asian heritage,"

Racist Jim?
They say it.
I just report it.
How does that make me racist?

You are again using that smear instead of any argument, because you have none.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:00 AM

"in order to paint ALL Pakistani males as potential sexual perverts"

But I have not done this Jim.
I just reported others who have blamed it on culture.
I don't know Jim.

I keep telling you I know nothing about the culture, and you keep ignoring it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:44 AM

"Probably most of them. The great majority probably."
That's "massivly" kind of you to say that Keith -I'm sure the Pakistani population are extremely grateful to have received your approval!
You have described every single Pakistani as a potential paeodophile after strenuously denying having done so and calling those who pointed it out to you "liars".
You have moved on from argument to propaganda in order to paint ALL Pakistani males as potential sexual perverts.
I have been told by the adjudicator not to put words to my opinion of what I believe you to be, so I won't, but rather than persuading me otherwise, my opinion of you remains as it was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 04:21 AM

The review found agencies were ill-prepared for the scale and complexity of the abuse exposed by the police investigation. It also found issues of culture, ethnicity and identity were a feature in both the victims, who were mostly white, and the perpetrators, who were of Asian heritage, and called for national discussion on this issue.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/25/care-agencies-missed-chances-abuse-victims

Internal trafficking of white girls among Pakistani men, mostly in the North of England, is not a new phenomenon. There have been a string of other grooming trials. It is a sad reflection on the impact of political correctness that it is so difficult to talk about the obvious ethnic and cultural links between these crimes. However if we continue to ask the important questions in a spirit of honesty and integrity, we may be able to reach the heart of the matter soon.
http://www.honourmission.net/tag/internal-trafficking/

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 02:44 AM

The full post selectively quoted by Jim.

: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.

Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.

Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 01:29 AM

Jim I am sure that huge numbers of BPs are perfectly balanced and normal people.
Probably most of them. The great majority probably.
I have no way of knowing either way, and certainly do not want to make a case about it.
I don't care what you think of the opinions of Straw and or anyone else.

Narey said what he said.He used the expression "over-representation" and he or another official referred to the racial issue in high profile cases.

Keith Vaz spoke against Straw but did not refute an over-representation.

The rest of the evidence all good?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 05:20 PM

"Straw said they do it because their own girls are off limits....."
Which is a thousand miles from saying that "I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency"
Can you please give us the quote where Jack Straw said anything like this?
You are once again openly claiming that all British Pakistanis have a cultural inclination towards paedophelia:
"and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."
which they have to suppress.
Isn't it time we sent them all back to where they came from - they are obviously a danger to our children - not to mention taking our jobs and houses!!
As I said - anecdotal evidence.
Keith Vaz was "the first Asian Member of Parliament since the 1920s and remains the longest standing Asian Member of Parliament
Other positions currently held include as an elected member of the National Executive Committee and as the Vice-Chair of Women, Race and Equality Committee of the Labour Party. He has held both of these positions since March 2007. Since 2000, he has been a patron of the Labour Party Race Action Group and in 2006 he was appointed the Chairman of the Ethnic Minority Taskforce."
He was one of the many Asians and non- Asians to protest strongly against Straws statement.
As an Asian who has worked officially on the race question in parliament.
Why is his word any less acceptable than Straw's on the question of race unless it is because Straw's 'sort of' fits your own agenda?
Are we now to believe that you are admitting to claiming a "cultural tendency" and that you have been telling porkies when you said you hadn't?
Just like to know which particular twist in the road we have arrived at!!
"culturally implanted tendency".
Now once again - who has made such a claim - certainly not Jack Straw - remember the poor "testosterone driven young men" you cut out of his statement.
And why do you continue to use Barnardos as a witness when they have said exactly the opposite to what you have now admiitted you are claiming.
Also, why are you still making a 'race' case of it and putting the safety of the children they are trying to protect in danger to make your racial stereotyping case - have you no pity for them - are they not "expert" enough experts for you to listen to their advice?
As I said racial stereotyping bollocks.
Jim Carroll