Sick Of The Democratic Party

Subject: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:17 AM

It probably started when the Republicans successfully made "liberal" a dirty word. Since then, the Democratic party has been on the defensive, seemingly trying to avoid criticism more than to present any strong direction for this country. The platforms of racial equality, equal opportunity and economic equity have been so diluted that it's hard to know what the Democratic party stands for. One of my sons has given up on the Democratic Party and opted for the Green Party, but is questioning whether that's really going to accomplish anything. I've pretty much gotten tired of the Democratic Party and question how effective the Green Party can be. If Mudcat is evidence of the philosphy of Democrats and Green Party believers, the "platform" seems to be Bush Sucks, Bush Is Evil, Bush Should Be Impaled, Bush Should be Impeached. I cannot vote positively for any party or movment that is solely "anti." I want to vote for a party that's "Pro" something. If the anti-Bush crowd thinks that endlessly ranting about how terrible he is (and I generally agree) this country will never move forward.

Maybe a new party is the answer.

It could be called The Malcontent Party.

I've been a Democrat all of my life. I think the Democratic party has an extremely high "Wuss" quotient and I find the endless complaining tiring and boring, without a firm platform of what can be done in a positive way to move this country forward.

Where are the leaders coming from? Who has a positive conviction on what needs to be done. Who can state their goals clearly without checking on the latest poll, or wondering if they will look like liberals?

The Democrats increasingly seem like crabby, poor losers with very little courage of their convictions. If they have any.

And no, I am not Martin Gibson..

I am a lifetime registered Democrat who is tired of Democrats, Green Party members and their endless attacks on Bush (no matter how justified) with so little positive ideas for turning this country around.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:21 AM

And Shambles: I didn't title this thread Obit: I have no idea how the Obit got added... couldn't have been a clone because the first post had the added Obit. Must be an oddity of the Cat. I don't think the Democratic Party is dead. I don't believe much of anything is "dead." Only sleeping.

Maybe a clone can read this post and remove the "Obit" from the title. I love it when they do that.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:22 AM

Oh, you mean like when Clinton was in and all the Republicans did was go after him and complain about how he was ruining our country?:->

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:26 AM

Good point, Kat... that always happens. But at least the Republicans had a clear agenda for the country (which I didn't support.) The Republicans stood for something. What do the Democrats stand for?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:35 AM

The same thing has happened in Australia, Jerry. The opposition has started mirroring the policies of the incumbent Liberals (actually very right wing conservatives) and we have no real opposition any more. The Greens here are very ethical, but are in the minority, and at present are critics only. The whole set up is very demoralising - and our government has a majority in the Senate and has been using it to bring in legislation to destroy workers rights and to increase security powers.

It is personally satisying to have allegiance with a less corrupt minor party, but this in effect reduces the standards in the main opposition, as people on theleft jump or are pushed out. It's a horrible catch 22.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:37 AM

I have no idea of whether it will eventually help but that's what I've been telling the Democratic Party for several years. In fact, Terry McCauliffe himself called me one day. This was after I had written that I would not contribute another dollar until the DP found its own path. I said that I don't support the party on just the basis of getting into office, that I wanted them in office in order to revitalize the country, to go back to the ideals they and we have long supported. I have told them that we need to hear bold voices that will speak truth. I have written the same thing to Howard Dean; I still have hope for him.

It is as if the Democrats, as a party and individually, have lost their compass. They seem demoralized. They remind me of hunting dogs that are milling, dogs that have lost the trail.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:44 AM

Hey, Ebbie:

They are hunting dogs that think that Bush is the trail and they're so focused on treeing him that they don't seem to have anything else on their minds.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:44 AM

A plague on both their houses, as far as I've been concerned for the last twenty years or more!

I vote for the person I consider the best, regardless of party.

The Democrats are too easily sidetracked, have no focus, and feel it necessary to fight every battle no matter its importance.

And unlike some, I think that extremism in the cause of "liberty" is a vice -- no matter where it comes from. Especially if your definition of "liberty" is a self-defined one.

I'll just keep on thinking.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:50 AM

Huzzahhh for Clones!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for changing the title so quickly. Them clones: you gotta love 'em.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM

Jerry,

While I tend to agree with you re. positive, as opposed to negative, concepts, I do feel that there are times when no recovery program can be formulated until the disease has been cured.

I too am fed up with Democrats, but not with democrats, the latter being the enlightened proportion of the population who DO believe in helping their fellow man. These people are essentially helpless in terms of cutting out the cancer of the greed motivated politician, which afflicts the USA, and those who have the power are not inclined to use it because they ARE the disease, not the surgeon. Naturally democrats, feeling disenfranchised, are frustrated as a result.

The power of the Republican Party (NOT republicans in general) seems to rest on the large number of people who will vote for anyone (no matter how crooked) who will allow them uncontrolled possession of guns, and keep their taxes low by not asking them to contribute to the health, education, or general wellbeing of their less fortunate countrymen.

This is not what one would expect of the democracy that was built on the concept "Send us your poor, your needy, and your hungry...etc" (I don't know the exact words, but the concept is clear enough).

The men who formulated those words would be ashamed at what has been done to the nation they founded, and modern America should give serious thought to the change of direction. I imagine a more honest revision would be "Keep your poor, your needy, and your hungry and take ours as well, because I've got mine, and I'm not sharing it".

Don T.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,Jeremiah Muskrat
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:03 AM

Al Gore's Victory Speech

Good Evening. I would like to thank the American people, except for the ones in my home state who know me too well, for voting for me. I wouild also like to thank Chad in Florida and my team of airborne Lawyers who made this all possible.

I will immediately reverse all of the decisions made by my former President, Bill Clinton, even though I supported them 100% when I had to. All acts of Congress done onder his administration are now suspended.

In the next few hours I will get our government all straightened out. The con man Chalabi, who duped everybody in the former administration, including me will be immediately cut off and all monies given to his phony INC will be recalled. Bin Ladin will be captured by nightfall and we will never ever have any more terrorist attacks on American Ctitzens. Saddam Hussein will be contained in a few minutes and he will not be able to support terrorisim or murder his own people ever again.

I hate to cut it short but I have 50 years of work to do before the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:09 AM

It was Emma Lazarus, of course, who formulated the verse but enough statesmen must have agreed with its concept to have it emblazoned on Lady Liberty.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I suspect that many neocons disagree violently with the very notion.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM

I told the Democrat party that I will support my friend, Tom Allen, rep. to congress but that is it. If they don't get off their asses and do something besides complain I will leave the party and go independent.

Raparie, the problem with your thinking is that no matter who the candidate is, he is still bound by his partys idiology. I like Bill Cohen, former sec. of state, republican, but I can't support his politics. At the same time, I detest Ted Kennedy, but I agree with his politics. So, as long as I don't have to sleep with him, or go somewhere with him driving, I will hold my nose and support him.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:16 AM

Kendall, you are a wise man.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:19 AM

I second that Kendall. In this case "The song, not the singer" seems about right.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:25 AM

Interesting thread, Jerry. Questioning party loyalty is a natural outgrowth of breaking any habit. Chicago and Illinois have been Democratic outposts for years. We have an old line Democratic mayor, Dem Governor and U.S. Senators. I have voted for all of them. Years ago, I used to help my Democratic precinct captain because it might mean by street would get snow plowed before others.

But as time has gone on, it's not the party, it's the people. I have voted Democrat and I have voted Republican and I will continue to do that as I see fit. It's really a game of "Measure the candidate's bullshit." Guess and win or guess and lose.

Pissing and moaning is just pissing and moaning. You have nailed it when it comes to all of it that goes on here. Venting on a web forum might relieve your tension about Bush, but if that is all you are doing about it, you are really wasting your own time more than any one else's. Until the time for an election, wouldn't it better to work towards cohesiveness than the ongoing diatribes of division?

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:32 AM

Who ever woulda thunk, Martin: You and I are of one accord on this issue. It's time to start challenging whatever party you claim allegiance to (I've seen jimmyt express criticism of the Republican party, as a Republican, too.) Even better yet, don't let any party think that they own you. They are supposed to represent US, not the reverse.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:38 AM

That's why so many here are just so ignorant, Jerry. That's really been my message all along. Many have had to be told this in some very strong language, but they ended up hearing it, and now they are pissed off that it's been said here.

Mudcat is no longer a safe harbor for radical left wingers. They are my greatest detractors and they are mad because over time, that safe harbor here has truly been changing.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:45 AM

I'd prefer "misguided" to ignorant, Martin. I have some dear friends who have become so fixated on Bush that I wonder if they've lost sight of working toward positive solutions. I propose the question, "When Bush is no longer President, then what?" That's the purpose of this thread.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 11:48 AM

"O wad some power the giftee gie us to see oursels as ithers see us."

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:01 PM

George Clooney, in a recent NPR interview said that conservatives accuse liberals of not having a sense of humor, and he thought they had a point. I do too. All this getting offended at stuff means they're vulnerable and they ARE always on the defensive, always reacting, always letting conservatives drive and being pissed off about speed, the route, and where they're going.

They need to stop complaining about where the conservatives are taking us and come up with a plan to get the keys back. They need to believe that's going to happen, and perhaps along the way, they might be able to get the conservaties to stop for a sandwich or a pee or maybe to see what's going on at Reptile World.

Bottom line is that whenever someone's reacting, someone else is controlling. I wish the Dems would risk being leaders again.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:05 PM

In the last few years, the newish Republican strategy of appealing primarily to diverse special interest groups and making the election a referendum on personality and emotional hot-buttons has gotten the Democrats seriously off balance. Several major Democrats have declined to run-- not wishing to endure a couple years of negativity and name-calling.

   NEITHER party has obvious, qualified front-line candidates ready to run for president right now...though Hillary Clinton's name has been bandied about a lot. I'm not sure she'll choose to run, as I can visualize the Republican against her...not against her competence or experience or positions, but against her personality, sound bites and 'being female generally'.

The only Democrat with an 'aura' right now may be Barack Obama, and I'm not sure he is ready...and I'm not sure he could win in needed areas due to his ethnicity.

The Democrats have a hard choice to make.....join the Republicans in negative, mud-slinging, narrow focus campaigning, or stick to 'serious issues' with candidates who at least TRY to be decent, knowledgeable leaders...and hope Bush & Co. make enough big blunders (and that the economy takes a bad turn in the election year!)

Sadly, even if everyone in the country decides Bush DID 'suck', the Republicans can just say.."hey, that's over! We have someone new whom we swear you can trust.." and go right on with the same tactics.

   The one thing I fear most is having John McCain run against a mediocre Democrat....I really might have to vote Republican for the first time ever.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:16 PM

I hear that the idea of Condoleeza Rice and Jeb Bush - in that order - is being floated.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: number 6
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:19 PM

Thanks for posting this thread Jerry ... interesting ... the same could be applied to current Canadian politics ... which also is 'running amuck' .. as I stated in a previous thread, the rest of the free world is right in line behind you guys.

sIx

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:32 PM

Hey Ebbie:

Ivory soap isn't the only thing that floats..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:32 PM

Sorry... I just couldn't resist that one...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Alba
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:33 PM

Aye Ebbie indeed. Rabbie said it well.
Personally I am sick of Politics at the moment:>) This too shall pass..
Jude

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: leftydee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:34 PM

As a life-time lefty, I find the Democratic Party losing it's appeal. There is a movement to the right that makes the Dems indistinguishable from the Repubs. We have become a country governed for and by the wealthy. John Kerry did not win because the un-decideds could see no real difference in policy or philosophy. When Howard Dean looked like he might strike a chord with America both parties trashed him as unpresidential for saying "yippee!" or some such. If there are Dems out there with liberal ideals they are hiding. Even Hillary is caught up in a flag burning bill. I don't think flag burning is necessarily a good thing but there , sure as hell, are better things for our congress to worry about.

I think the whole Neo-Con agenda is totally unpatriotic. They espouse a philosophy of greed and class domination. This government for and by business interests was called fascism during WWII. Sadly, the democrats are going with the program. It sickens me. As a minority , if you can't change things , you can, at least, point out what's going on. The Dems have become eunichs.

So now what? Where do we go from here? The Green Party has proven itself to be a waste of time and resources. Can liberals get the Democratic Party back? America is a beautiful idea.. not a bunch of people surrounded by borders. The idea of America, the one that says "give me you tired, your poor....." needs defending. We need a grass roots effort that won't tolerate the "going along " by the Dems. We need to do it in our neighborhoods. Support good people that do not want politics as a career but do the right thing.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM

There are a couple of things that we are trying in our community.

1) Encouraging people of like mind (i.e. people who recognize a problem, people who are enthusiastic about the efforts needed to find solutions, people who are open to input no matter from where) to run for the City Assembly, the local School Board and State legislature.

2) Encouraging those people already in the system to work within their ideals, get behind them, publicise their ideas and their accomplishments.

3) Setting up town hall type meetings and connecting with others already in existence, recognizing that no one person has all the answers and that we all take sustenance from each other.

4) Writing letters, speaking loudly and clearly, encouraging others to do the same.

5) Watching for other opportunities as they arise.

I would love to get more ideas from Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM

Oh - there's something else we are doing with forethought: Getting behind community projects that we see as necessary and do-able and for the future. We want to become known as people with vision, not as A-ginners.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM

No, Kendall. I'm just sick and tired of big-D Democrats and big-R Republicans (and big-L Libertarians and big-C Communists and big-S Socialists and...).

I will vote for the person, not the party. Always have, even when I lived in Illinois, troublesome though that could be.

I grew up poor, but we weren't allowed to know it. Just that the money wasn't there for a lot of things, and my mother would put off getting new glasses if her kids needed them. Looking back, I now know why she so often ate as little as she did.

We went through college courtesy of the Illinois National Guard, the GI Bill (such as it was for Vietnam Era vets), National Defense Student Loans, Work-Study, and even a small grant (and I mean SMALL). Everyone I know who had a student loan paid it back in full, too.

Now I'm making more money that I ever thought I would and I only hope that I'm worth it. And I'm worried about the kids coming up -- if they'll have the opportunities I did for education. I'm concerned about the national debt, which is growing at an alarming rate and which we do NOT "owe to ourselves" any more -- and how, when the government is cutting its income by lowering taxes, it will ever be repaid. I see young families around here buying multi-hundred-thousand-dollar houses and only paying the interest on the loan, and wonder what will happen when times get bad again.

It seems to me that both parties are ignoring some serious problems while tossing slime back and forth. Both seem to have lost sight of the fact that "all politics is local" and no longer work for the community, however large or small.

A 79 year old retired railroad worker told me Saturday that he thinks that the Democrats will "roar back" in this years elections. Me, I'd rather a bunch of people who would work for the community, regardless of party, would get into power.

If John Kerry ran against John McCain, I'd vote for McCain. If, on the other hand, BOB KerrEy ran against John McCain, well, I'd have a real problem....

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:00 PM

I'm going to vote straight democratic in the midterms. The pubs have not impressed me and I think Congress needs some shaking up. In 2008, I don't know. If the pubs can put forth a palatable candidate, I'd vote for him. I too do not understand how the dem party just completely fell to pieces after 2004. They definitely seem to be in disarray, some strange funk. Hard to believe or explain.

Even so, I'd rather have them assume the majority in Congress and put some brakes on Bush. Bush DOES need to be impeached--he's broken too laws for us to keep ignoring it. To not do so because the dems aren't offering a unified front is the fault of the Constitution and not the dems--although I DO wish they would get it together. We can't ignore the continued law-breaking--I'm sorry.

But if the dems don't take the midterms, it won't matter.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:04 PM

Juneau's Pat Henry wrote:

"We're biting off more than we can chew
We're biting off more than we can chew
We're biting off more than we can chew
Me and you. So what're we going to do.

    We'll just leave it to our children
    We'll just leave it to our children
    We'll just leave it to our children
    Little buggers...

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:28 PM

My brother, who's a solid Republican who votes for whoever he thinks is the best, feels VERY strongly about term limits (12 years for both houses).

I'm much more radical. I think that the US Government should be decentralized.

Leave the Supreme Court in DC.

Move the legislators back into their home districts and make 'em meet and work electronically (yes, it can be done and done securely because it's already being done). Pay the legislators the prevailing wage in their district and require voter approval for any raise. Their benefits are whatever is prevalent in their district. (Secretaries, legislative assistants, etc. get the same pay and benefits as any federal employee.)

Move the White House to (or close to) the geographic center of the US. Belle Fourche, South Dakota, I think it is. I'm certain they could use the money. Each Department (State, Defense, etc.) moves to a different State -- Agriculture might move to Kansas, for example. Research institutions run by the government stay where they are.

This would play hell with lobbyists. DC would become museum central. One bomb couldn't wipe out the Congress. Legislators would be where their constituents could keep track of them. Costs go down. And I don't find anything in the Constitution to prevent it.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM

Makes sense to me, Rap..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: leftydee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 03:52 PM

Me too Rap!

I honestly think that the drafters of the constitution would be appalled by the career (almost all lawyers) politicians. I think serving was intended to be something you did as a service to your community, just as serving on the board of your local YMCA or fund raising for the local youth sports or music programs, etc is viewed today. Instead, it's now an elitist club that cares little for it's contituency and only worries about how to get re elected and continues to sop up the gravy.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:09 PM

Lots of lawyers among the founding fathers -- Jefferson, Madison and others.

The Congressional Reference Service on the occupations and education of the 108th Congress:

Occupations

As has been true in previous Congresses, law and business are the dominant professions in the 108th Congress. Other professions include public service, education, agriculture, and journalism. A closer look at the prior occupations of Members of the 108th Congress also shows:

eight medical doctors (including a psychiatrist), three dentists, two
veterinarians, an optometrist, three nurses, one pharmacist, and three
psychologists;

five ministers;

35 mayors, 13 state Governors, 11 Lieutenant Governors (including two
Delegates), two state first ladies (one of whom was also the first lady of the United States) and one territorial first lady, two former cabinet secretaries, two state supreme court justices, and a federal judge;

a president of the National Conference on State Legislatures and 274
(232 in the House and 42 in the Senate) former state legislators;

112 congressional staffers (including 10 congressional pages), 14 White House staffers or fellows, several former executive branch employees, a former aide to the Secretary of Defense, a former deputy administrator in the Veterans' Administration, a former deputy assistant Secretary of State, and a former ambassador;

four police officers (including a Capitol policeman), two state troopers, two sheriffs, two volunteer firemen, two probation officers, and a border patrol chief;

two FBI agents and one CIA agent;

two physicists, two chemists, a biomedical researcher, a geologist, and a microbiologist;

six Peace Corps volunteers;

an astronaut, a professional magician, a semi-professional musician, two broadcasters, a television sportscaster, a television reporter, a
motivational speaker, a commercial airlines pilot, a corporate pilot, a flight school instructor, a major league baseball player, a major league football player (who was also a college football coach), a florist, a librarian, two vintners, two auctioneers, two jewelry makers, a steelworker, a carpenter, an ironworker, a paper mill worker, a meat cutter, a river boat captain, a hotel bellhop, a taxicab driver, a race track blacksmith, and a "jackeroo" (cowboy) on a sheep-cattle ranch.

Education

As has been true in previous Congresses, the Members of the 108th Congress are well educated. At least 399 Members of the House and 97 Senators hold bachelor's degrees; 124 Members of the House and 19 Senators have master's degrees; 175 Members of the House and 59 Senators hold law degrees; 18 Members of the House have doctoral
degrees; and 11 Members of the House and three Senators hold medical degrees.

In addition, there are two graduates of the U. S. Military Academy, one in the House and one in the Senate; one Senator is a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy; one Representative (a woman) is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy; five Representatives and three Senators were Rhodes Scholars; one Representative was a Fulbright Scholar, and one was a Marshall Scholar.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:34 PM

Guest, AR282, voting straight Democratic is the lazy and easy way out. Take the time to figure out where candidates stand.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:35 PM

Right on, Martin.

Anything less cheapens your vote.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 04:56 PM

Until such time as Representatives and Senators and 'Party' people have a country they want to make great again instead of just control and milk for all they can then give to their friends in business--until they have the stones to tell lobbyists to "get the hell out of my office", the country will suffer.

We have the same damned shite happening here. We have an election coming up in which again I will mar my ballot and possibly write a few words to clarify my non-vote. I am disgusted that people run for office, perceiving it to be the road to riches, the road to power. It's been one helluva long time since an economically poor President or Prime Minister left office. Or politician for that matter. What is it about Washington and Ottawa that turns people into thieves, crooks and uncaring sods?

What is there about power that allows the likes of Bush to circumvent the Constitution or the likes of Clinton to disgrace the Oval Office by having some teenybopper suck his dink in it? What is there about that--when Americans do not see that the behaviours are disgraceful and not worthy of either the Office or the Nation. What is it when people think that Clinton's fiasco was just a minor thing--and yes, many folks here have stated that--and yet he cheapened the Oval Office as few have done, ever. And the clown in power now who has difficulty saying words that make sense because his thinking is scattered all over everywhere and he can't bring the thoughts together without a speech writer. Or is it that we have all come to expect and accept these behaviours from those with whom we have entrusted our votes? Good luck to you. You need it as much as we do.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:35 PM

Thanks, Rap.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:43 PM

Jerry, good thread full of interesting comments. A few months ago, I said to several people that it would be almost impossible for the Democrats to not take the White House next election decisively. I now have some questions as to whether they will manage to foul up this and manage to get another Republican elected. I have my personal reasons of why I personally would like to see a democrat elected to this next term, but I would like it to be a candidate who represents some positive issues. I really don't want to be critical but Howard Dean is hardly a uniter in the party in my opinion. I would love to see a middle of the road candidate in either party step forward and take the nomination.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:48 PM

Most Americans are tired of hearing about Clinton and this "only a blow job" BS. Here is a partial list of Slick Willy's transgressions and some by his cohorts, complete only until Jun24, 1996:



BILL CLINTON


(1) Used State Police for personal purposes.

(2) Directed State Police to fabricate incriminating evidence
against a political opponent: Terry Reed.

(3) Conspired with David Hale and Jim McDougal to defraud the
Small Business Administration.

(4) Was complicit in the shipment of drugs through Arkansas.

(5) Allowed laudering of drug money through ADFA.

(6) Appointed and protected Arkansas Medical Examiner Fahmy Malak
who repeatedly obstructed justice by declaring murders as
"suicides" or "accidents."

(7) Has never accounted for his actions during 40 days behind the
Iron Curtain during the Vietnam War.

(8) Tipped off Governor Tucker about upcoming criminal referral.

(9) Violated Arkansas campaign finance laws.

(10) Violated his oath ofoffice to uphold the Constitution by
signing into law an ex post facto law, a retroactive tax
increase.

(11) Fired RTC chiefAlbert Casey to allow his friend Roger
Altman to monitor and block Whitewater investigations.

(12) Fired FBI director William Sessions to prevent an
autonomous FBI from investigating the Foster suicide and from
resisting cooperation in the Filegate operation.

(13) Fired all U.S. Attorneys to appoint Paula Casey to prevent
Judge David Hale from testifying against Clinton.

(14) Offered State Troopers federal jobs in return for their
silence about Clinton's crimes.

(15) Blocked Justice Department indictments after Inspector
General Sherman Funk found "criminal violations of the Privacy
Act provable beyond reasonable doubt" when former Bush employee
files were searched and leaked to the press.

(16) Appointed friend and now-convicted felon Webster Hubbell to
number 3 position in Justice Department in order to be able to
block Whitewater criminal referrals.

(17) Blocked the criminal trial of Representative Ford, a
Tennessee Democrat.

(18) Appointed a campaign activist to head the Commodity Futures
Trading Commission, without the mandated "advice and consent" of
the Senate, to derail a probe of his and Hillary's financial
dealings.
Bill Clinton is under investigation by Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr.


HILLARY CLINTON



(1) Took a $100,000 bribe, camouflaged as futures trades,
from Tyson Foods Inc.

(2) Speculated in Health Care industry futures while overseeing
legislative reform of same.

(3) Failed to correct false testimony by co-defendant Ira
Magaziner in Health Care trial.

(4) Obstructed justice by ordering the shredding of Vince
Foster's documents in the Rose Law Firm.

(5) Ordered members of the Health Care Task Force to shred
documents that were the target of a court probe.

(6) Ordered the removal of documents from Vince Foster's office.

(7) Told aides to lie about their removal of documents from
Foster's office

(8) Obstructed justice by keeping her billing records, a document
sought under subpoena, in the White House residence.

(9) Lied to investigators about her knowledge about billing
records.

(10) Lied to investigators about her involvement in the Castle
Grande land flip con.

(11) Ordered the use of the FBI to discredit Travel Office
employees.

(12) Lied to investigators about her involvement in the firing of
Travel Office Employees.


IRA MAGAZINER, Hillary Clinton Senior Advisor



(1) Violated federal law when he held Health Care Task Force
Meetings in secret and refused to release documents

(2) Lied in court about the composition of the Health Care
Task Force.
U.S. Attorney Eric Holder found insufficient evidence for indictment of Ira Magaziner.


BERNARD NUSSBAUM, Former White House Counsel



(1) Obstructed justice in the Foster suicide investigation by
blocking access, removing documents, lying about his removal of
documents, and by retrieving Foster's pager from Park Police.

(2) Attempted to quash a Whitewater investigation at the RTC
through White House liaisons.
Nussbaum has resigned and is under investigation for lying to Congress.


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, Senior Advisor



(1) Took a $600,000 loan below market interest and with
insufficient collateral from Nations Bank, a bank having business
before the Clinton Administration.

(2) Lied to Congress during Whitewater hearings.

(3) Attempted to have Whitewater investigator Jay Stephens at the
RTC fired.


MIKE ESPY, Former Agriculture Secretary



(1) Took bribes from Tyson Foods Inc., which was under regulatory
control of his Agriculture Department.
Espy has resigned and is under investigation by a Special Counsel


ROGER ALTMAN, Deputy Secretary of the Treasury


(1) Lied to Congress during Whitewater hearings. (2) Lied to Congress about having lied to Congress. (3) Instructed Ellen Kulka and Jack Ryan at the RTC to block the Whitewater investigation by L. Jean Lewis.

Roger Altman was forced to resign.

RON BROWN, Former Commerce Secretary



(1) Has taken bribes from almost everybody. Says it is part of
the way Washington works. The allegations are too numerous
and complicated to be detailed here.
Ron Brown was still under investigation by an Independent Counsel when he died in a plane crash in 1996. The investigation continues.


LES ASPIN, Former Secretary of Defense



(1) Through criminal negligence was responsible for the death
of Army Rangers in Somalia. Has never been held accountable
in public hearings.
Les Aspin has resigned and is deceased.


WILLIAM KENNEDY, DAVID WATKINS, PATSY THOMASSON:



(1) Fabricated charges against White House Travel Office
personnel to have the business taken over by Clinton friends.

(2) Coerced FBI and IRS agents into complicity with this
scheme.

Kennedy and Watkins have resigned.


CATHERINE CORNELIUS, Travel Office employee



(1) Removed documents from White House Travel Office.
Because those documents later became the subject ofa trial
against Office Director Billy Dale, that could amount to
obstruction ofjustice.


PATSY THOMASSON, Director of White House Administration

(1) Lied to Congress about the composition of the Health Care Task Force and the size of its budget. (2) Obstructed justice when she removed documents from the office of Vince Foster.


MARGARET WILLIAMS, Chief of Staff to the First Lady



(1) Obstructed justice when she removed documents from the office
of Vince Foster.

(2) Lied to Congress about removing those documents.
Maggy Williams is under investigation by Independent Counsel.


JOSHUA STEINER, Treasury Department Employee.



(1) Lied to Congress about conversations with White House
personnel about the RTC. (He also lied to his diary, but that is
not a crime.)

Joshua Steiner has resigned.


LLOYD CUTLER, Former White House Counsel



(1) Lied to Congress about the contents of redacted documents.

(2) Attempted to withhold vital information from Congress, a
felony.

(3) Obtained a confidential Treasury report and showed it to
witnesses before they testified before Congress in the Whitewater
in 1970. Has never been indicted for this crime which was similar to what the
Watergate Plumbers spent time in jail for.


BRUCE LINDSEY, Senior Advisor



(1) As treasurer for the Clinton gubernatorial campaign in
1990, he signed withdrawals from Peny County Bank, the president
of which has pled guilty to conspiring to conceal these
withdrawals from the IRS and FEC.
Bruce Lindsey is an unindicted co-conspirator in the trial of the owners of Perry County Bank.


MARIAN BENETT, USIA Inspector General



(1) Covered up credit-card fraud by USIA Inspector General staff.


FEDERICO PENA, Secretary of Transportation



(1) State and federal contracts were awarded to companies in
which he had a financial interest.

The Justice Department found insufficient evidence to appoint
a Special Counsel.


HENRY CISNEROS, Secretary of HUD



(1) Lied to the FBI about payments to former lover.
Under investigation by Special Counsel.


JANET RENO, Attorney General



(1) Fabricated charges of child molestation against the Branch
Davidians in Waco, Texas.

(2) Ordered the use of military equipment against citizens of
the United States

(3) Ordered the use of chemical agents against citizens of the
United States.


ROBERT REICH, Secretary of Labor



(1) Lied to Congress when he wrote that there were no memos
circulating in the Labor Department instructing staffto gather
political material against the Contract with America. Such memos
were later published. Under investigation by Congress.


DONNA SHALALA, Secretary of Health and Human Services



(1) As Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin at Madison
instituted speech codes which were found to be unconstitutional
in federal court. Instituted thought police star chamber proceed
-ings to drive politically incorrect people off campus.


CAROL BROWNER, EPA Administrator



(1) Used the EPA to campaign against Republicans running on
the Contract with America, an illegal use of the executive
branch for political campaigning.

Carol Browner is under investigation by Congress.


ROBERTA ACHTENBERG, Former Assitant Secretary of HUD



(1) Violated the First Amendment when she ordered HUD
lawyers to silence citizens who spoke out against planned
housing projects.

(2) Exceeded her authority when she had HUD staff threaten
Allentown County to withdraw an "Use of English language
encouraged" ordinance.

Roberta Achtenberg resigned to run for Mayor of San Francisco, a
race which she lost.


DEVAL PATRICK, Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights



(1) Used extortion to force banks to give preferential
treatment to minorities.

Congress is investigating the possibility of impeachment based on
abuse of power.


BRUCE BABBIT, Secretary of the Interior



(1) Paid a penalty for violating campaign finance laws during his
1988 presidential campaign.


HAZEL O'LEARY, Energy Secretary



(1) Abused taxpayer money for extravagant travels around the
world.

Hazel O'Leary is under investigation by Congress.


WILLIAM PERRY, Secretary of Defense



(1) Intervened in a Chinese trade deal on behalf of a business
partner.


CRAIG LIVINGSTONE, Chief of White House Security



(1) Was seen carrying a box from Foster's office the morning
after Vince Foster died.

(2) Ordered confidential FBI background files on Hillary
Clinton's political enemies, a violation of the privacy act.

Craig Livingstone is currently on paid leave and has been unable to
pass FBI criminal background checks, and the White House has
admitted that 11 unnamed White House staffers have had recent
drug use. Unsubstantiated allegations of murder, treason,
and conspiracy have been omitted from the above list.
In light of this record, it is appropriate to mention those Clinton Cabinet Secretaries who are not under investigation and have never had criminal allegations raised against them:

RICHARD RILEY, Secretary of Education
WARREN CHRISTOPHER, Secretary of State

In this administration these secretaries must be considered beacons of morality.

(Sources: published accounts in The Washington Weekly)
Copyright (c) 1996 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com)

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 05:51 PM

I have no doubt that Bush's rap sheet will look much like Clinton's.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM

Peek at Reagan's. Look up the ones without a notation.

By the end of his term, 138 Reagan administration officials had been convicted, had been indicted, or had been the subject of official investigations for official misconduct and/or criminal violations. In terms of number of officials involved, the record of his administration was the worst ever."

1. Lyn Nofziger--White House Press Secretary - Convicted on charges of illegal lobbying of White House in Wedtech scandal. The lobbying would not have been illegal had he not been White House Press Secretary.

2. Michael Deaver, Reagan's Chief of Staff, received three years' probation and was fined one hundred thousand dollars after being convicted for lying to a congressional subcommittee and a federal grand jury about his lobbying activities after leaving the White House. Same as with Lyn Nofziger.

3. James Watt, Reagan's Secretary of the Interior was indicted on 41 felony counts for using connections at the Department of Housing and Urban Development to help his private clients seek federal funds for housing projects in Maryland, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Watt conceded that he had received $500,000 from clients who were granted very favorable housing contracts after he had intervened on their behalf. Watt was eventually sentenced to five years in prison and 500 hours of community service.

4. John Poindexter, Reagan's national security advisor, guilty of five criminal counts involving conspiracy to mislead Congress, obstructing congressional inquiries, lying to lawmakers, used "high national security" to mask deceit and wrong-doing...

5. Richard Secord pleaded guilty to a felony charge of lying to Congress over Iran-Contra. Appointed by William Casey to assist Oliver North.

6. Elliott Abrams was appointed by President Reagan in 1985 to head the State Department's Latin American Bureau. He was closely linked with ex-White House aide Lt. Col. Oliver North's covert movement to aid the Contras. Working for North, Abrams coordinated inter-agency support for the contras and helped solicit illegal funding from foreign powers as well as domestic contributors. Abrams agreed to cooperate with Iran-Contra investigators and pled guilty to two charges reduced to misdemeanors. He was sentenced in 1991 to two years probation and 100 hours of community service but was pardoned by President George Bush...

7. Robert C. McFarlane, Reagan's National Security Advisor, pled guilty to four misdemeanors and was sentenced to two years probation and 200 hours of community service. He was also fined $20,000. He received a blanket pardon from President George Bush...

8. Alan D. Fiers was the Chief of the Central Intelligence Agency's Central American Task Force. Fiers pled guilty in 1991 to two counts of withholding information from congress about Oliver North's activities and the diversion of Iran arms sale money to aid the Contras. He was sentenced to one year of probation and 100 hours of community service. Alan Fiers received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President Bush.

9. Thomas G. Clines: convicted of four counts of tax-related offenses for failing to report income from the operations;

10. Carl R. Channel - Office of Public Diplomacy , partner in International Business- first person convicted in the Iran/Contra scandal, pleaded guilty of one count of defrauding the United States

11. Richard R. Miller - Partner with Oliver North in IBC, a Office of Public Diplomacy front group, convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States.

12. Frank Gomez

13.. Donald Fortier

14. Clair George was Chief of the CIA's Division of Covert Operations under President Reagan. George was convicted of lying to two congressional committees in 1986. George faced a maximum five year federal prison sentence and a $20,000 fine for each of the two convictions. Jurors cleared George of five other charges including two counts of lying to a federal grand jury. Clair George received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President George Bush...

15. Rita Lavelle was indicted, tried and convicted of lying to Congress and served three months of a six-month prison sentence.

16. Philip Winn - Assistant HUD Secretary. Pleaded guilty to one count of scheming to give illegal gratuities.

17. Thomas Demery - Assistand HUD Secretary - pleaded guilty to steering HUD subsidies to politically connected donors.

18. Deborah Gore Dean - executive assistant to Samuel Pierce - indicted on thirteen counts, three counts of conspiracy, one count of accepting an illegal gratuity, four counts of perjury, and five counts of concealing articles. She was convicted on twelve accounts. She appealed and prevailed on several accounts but the convictions for conspiracy remained.

19. Catalina Villaponda - Former US Treasurer

20. Joseph A. Strauss - Accepting kickbacks from developers

21. Oliver North - He was indicted on sixteen felony counts and on May 4, 1989, he was convicted of three: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents (by his secretary, Fawn Hall, on his instructions). He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines, and 1,200 hours community service. His conviction was later overturned.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:13 PM

Well, well, well...

I been sick of Dems it seems forever, Jerry, but that ain't no reason to go blasting the GREEN Party as well...

No, the Green Party isn't a party of no ideas!!!

Maybe you jkust don't know much about the Green Party... Try GOOGLE, then come back and say that we don't have ideas...

A major part of the problem we, as Greens, have is stopping the blood=letting that is occuring in our country from Goerge Bush's policies which seem to all favor the corporate interests ovetr the interests of the working man...

So, yeah, right now it may seem that we ***only*** are anti-Bush policies but if we can stop the bleeding there's a lot gopod that this country can do...

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr......

Don't blame us for Bush!!!!

That's yer guy's (Dems) fault, not ours!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM

Kermit the Frog is the leader of the Green party. The party's official song is, "It's Not Easy being Green."

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:34 PM

No, it's very easy being Green, Martin...

It takes no courage to be a Republican though... None whats so ever... All ya' gott be able to do is nof yer head like them plastic dolls that some folks keep in the back windows of their cars...

So sound very capable of being a Repub...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:39 PM

I'm not. I'm an Independent. You can't live in Illinois and be a staunch Republican. Stay on the fringe, bobert. Your vote means nothing.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:43 PM

I have been on the 'fringe' all my life.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: number 6
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM

Years ago I had a suede jacket with a fringe.

sIx

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:48 PM

In order to win an election, you need big money.

In Canada, we already know the Liberals are crooks but they will probably win again. In Vancouver, we actually had honest politicians in city hall, on the Parks board and on the School board. They were voted out. I have no idea why. Seems to me that whoever is in power is hated and voted out at the first possibility.

I can't comment on who should succeed Bush because I'm not in the U.S. I can, however, tell you that Bush has nearly ruined the U.S. in more ways than one. He is worse than a crook. He's a traitor.

I was never a Clinton fan either but only because he was schmarmy.

I agree that Obama might be a good choice for president. He is an intelligent human being and seems to understand the needs of the people. I think he would also be a good diplomat. Thats about the only U.S. candidate that it worth listening to.

I hope that the citizens of the U.S. wake up and smell the roses because you have been given so much. Maybe thats the problem. You are like the spoiled, self indulgent rich kids who really don't give a damn about anything other than self gratification. Bush is just a symptom of decay.

I know that most Mudcatters do not fall into that category but I can't help but wonder why, with so much warning from the rest of the world, Bush has managed to take you all down the perilous hiway and why so many continue to support him and make excuses for his behaviour. Why can't men like this be stopped?

Rather than a war on terrorism, I think we need a war on greed.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:48 PM

hey, pdq!..That list of Clinton's 'transgressions' is 1)old 2)largely discredited and shown to be accusations, not facts... and 3)is a list by an arch-conservative rag!

Show me a list done by even a SEMI-neutral media outlet that takes that stuff seriously!

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: number 6
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:51 PM

"I think we need a war on greed."

Agreed dianavin ... unfortuantely the bad guys in this war have all the money ... be a hard bloody one to beat.

sIx

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 07:29 PM

Oh, heck, Martin, to be a Republican in Illinois is easy: all you need is to move elsewhere. Someplace like Kinderhook or Mendon or New Berlin or Big Neck. Especially Big Neck. Big Neck needs Republicans. Hell, Big Neck needs a population. Wasn't anyone living there the last time I went through.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 07:33 PM

Hey, Bobert: I know the Green Party's ideas and agree with most of them. If you read my opening statements it's that "I question how effective the Green Party can be." If it has as little an impact on the next election as it did on the last one, I don't believe it's going to make a difference. I know that the general thinking is that a third party can influence the platform of one of the major parties, or at least bring issues to the fore. I question how much either of those wishes come true. I didn't see any influence wielded in the last election. I think the issues that will drive the next election are the ones that usually drive an election. The economy, Stupid (not you Bobert) and the situation in Iraq. It's easy to compile a list six blocks long about the crimes, great and small, of any President. As long as it doesn't hurt the pocket book, people will just shrug it off as "that's politics." I'm glad that Martin (Who I am 100% in agreement with on this issue) stopped voting so that he could get his street plowed first. He's wised up, but there are many people who vote for a candidate for equally silly reasons.

As for Bush, I'd rather see the Green Party's energy and those who are concerned about this country start mobilizing so that we don't just get another Bush-lite in the White House next time around. Or a wishy-washy Democrat who runs on a campaign full of condemnation of the Republicans and empty on concrete policies.

My son, was quite involved with the Green Party last election but has started to question how effective they can really be. If it's just to get together and feel good about being righter than everyone else, they won't accomplish a whole lot. Like me, he's not really sure where to turn. For all of his candor and generally good ideas, I'm not at all comfortable with Howard Dean. I suspect he'll shoot himself in the foot real good if he starts campaigning.

And if they were successful in impeaching Bush, you want Cheney as President?... Hey, Peace... can I sleep in your barn tonight?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 07:36 PM

Feingold. Than maybe . . . .

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 07:46 PM

Among the Republicans, McCain. Among the Democrats...I dunno. Certainly not John Kerry, and I think Hilary Clinton would lose more states than she'd gain. Obaka, definitely, even if he is a first-time Senator. Bob Kerrey is a long shot darkhorse.

Did anyone else here that Rumsfeld has reorganized the DoD so the if the Sec. of Defense slot is vacant an administrator and not one of the Service Secretaries (Army, Navy, Air Force) gets the job? True -- just in the last couple days.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 07:47 PM

These three articles are worth a look. sometimes change comes quietly, "out of left field"..!

10 Good Things about Another Bad Year

Behind Veil of Iraq War, Winds of Peace

Optimism for Progressives in 2006

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM

Well, Jerry, the largest part of the problem is money and the second largest problem is timing...

95% of elections are won by the candidate that spent the most money on his or her campaign... And money has so completely corruptyed our system of governemnt that as a Green I can yell at the top of my lungs and not too many fols will hear me...

Every developed country in the world has nationalized health care except the United States... The Green Party is the only party that is advocating national health care... The Green Party is the only party that is talking about nationally financed elections which will take the corruption outta our system... The Green Party is the only party who is calling for the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy to be rolled back... The Green party is the only party that is trying to bring to the average American workers attention that the existing two party sytem isn't that at all but two rival fraternities...

Yes, we do stand for stuff...

Now, the timing thing I spoke about... At some point in time, as in any revolution (armed or non-violent) the working class kida collectively figgures it's getting screwed... Folks say this can't happen here??? Bull-feathers... Not only can it happen BUT it will happen!!! Hey, I'm not sure what it will take but it **will** happen... It has happened in every "great" society in history and it **will** happen... And when (not if) if happens, the Green Party will jump into fill that need of angry folks who have collectively decided that they aren't going to take any more of Boss Hog's corporate screwings...

Now, lastly, I believe the timing thning has byut pushed alot closer by the stuff that Bush has done...

Take, for example, the recent "bankruptcy" legislation which exempts credit card companies, which charge usary rates and are responsible for lots of our kids having to drop out of college, from the list of creditors who won't get paid... Mom and pop companies will get screwed but not the big corporate fat cats... But that's not the entire story... The rest of the story which accelerates that timing thing is that the Bush adminsitration has let any loosing corporation, irregarless of how mych their CEO's make, to "re-orgainze" under Chapter 11 and then force their employees to take pay cuts and benefit cuts...

This is just one issue... There are a string of them where the DEM's aren't standing up, spending what money they have to try to bring some sanity to our governemnt...

Like I said, revolution is guarentted in this greed driven country and when the avergae Joe Sixpack changes his mind about the system, the system won't get him back with NASCAR and beer... It will be too late for the "system"..

Meanwile, we Greens will be ready to provide ideas and leadership... We allready have the ideas...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:14 PM

"I am not a member of an organized political party, I'm a Democrat."

- Will Rogers


Jerry, I too am very disappointed with the politics of the era. If I had to -very briefly- compress the situation that the US is in party-wise, I would say that the Republicans are evil, the Democrats are cowards.

The US Electorate will choose evil over cowards every time.

Having got that out of the way, I'll admit it's pretty facetious. I think there are many Dems and Reps who are aghast at what their parties have become.

'W' and his ilk did not come from nowhere. They reflect the US - possibly the world - of today which has been softened by having motors and engines do all our work, made vain by the shifting of much of production labor to non union overseas/ out of sight locations, made carefree by having volunteer fighting forces, and made lazy by entitlement programs which fight each other to sap the nation's treasure, made into peons by the worship of celebrity.

The important thing is to get to work, find some folk who you can associate with, and act like you give a damn. If you can see yourself working to make the Democratic party better, go for it. If you must go start putting together a new party, better'n nothin'.

Advice I may sometime take for myself.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,The Clothes Have No Emperor!
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM

Read THIS.

Then read THIS.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:24 PM

Guest: Couldn't take the time to read both articles, but I liked the first one. I too believe that it's time for progressives to retake the Democratic party.

And as an aside, I think It's time for the silent majority of Christians to take control of Christianity and show waht a powerful force non-judgmental love, and inclusiveness can be. What passes for conservative Christianity would make Christ roll over in his grave. If he was dead.. -)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:32 PM

I might read the book but I think I could have written it but as fir the first link??? Forget it... You ain't gonna change the Dems from joining them... They are, like their Repub. counterparts, too corrupted by money...

I hate to say it but they will just have to continuie loosing eloections before they might have the balls to say, "We won't take soft money"... No we won't play the "Pioneers'n'-Rangers-Extortion-Game" that the Repubs perfected...

When they throw out the corporate fat cats you'll know that they are a 2nd party... Until then???

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:43 PM

Hey Bobert, ole buddy: Looks like what we have is an honest difference of opinion. The only difference is that we have a different idea how to approach the problem ... and that you have all the answers, and I still have a lot of questions.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,The Emperor Has No Clothes!
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:47 PM

Anybody hear the Capitol Steps on NPR this morning?

"Koo-koo-kah-choo, Reverend Robertson,
Jesus really doesn't like your show!
Ho ho ho! ...... "

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:02 PM

No, Jerry, I don't have "all the answers" but I do feel very stringly that Green Party folks shouldn't be harrassed back into the Democratic Party because it's the only way to change the Democratic Party...

Like you, I grew up as a Democrat... I worked several campaigns and actually was a paid staff memebr in the Bobby Kennedy campaign... I worked for Jimmy Carter... I've worked more recently with local Democrats candidates... My business partent is a Democrat and sits on Town Coucil in Leesburg...

But, and I guess that where maybe your son and I agree to disagree with you is why the Democratic Party thinks it has the right to reel Greens back into the fold when the democrats won't make consessions... They cannot serve the corporate fat cats and the Joe Sixpack at the same time... They need to choose...

Can't serve two masters, you know...

Hey, throw us a few ***meaningful*** bones and we can talk...

The 90's was embarrassing... We ain't gonna do that again... Clinton wasn't a progressive at all... Might of fact, he turned out to be more conservative that a lot of Repubs... Yeah, we need the kinda leadership that isn't afarid of ther gun lobby, isn't afraid of to push for true campaign finaning... Clinton backed down... Okay, I could forgive him in the first term but the 2nd??? No forgiveness here, my friend... He should have had half the balls that Bush has and at least gotten some seeds p-lanted for progressive change... He was a major disappointment...

And the Dems were, as well...

Like I siad, and I am not speaking for anyone but my Green self: Throw us some meaningfull bones and I'll talk... Hey, we may only represent 3% but in these times, 3% is large with the partisans split 48/48...

Ball is in your court...

Bro Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,The Clothes Have No Emperor!
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:03 PM

Actually, the silent majority of Christians are starting to speak out. This book (Clicky #1) and this one (Clicky #2) are currently being discussed in many churches' adult forums and religious book clubs. Also, both Willis and Carter are doing a lot of lecturing and appearing on a lot of talk shows.

These are only two. There are others.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,The Clothes, etc.
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:06 PM

Sorry! "Wallis," not "Willis."

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:22 PM

Hey, Bobert: Neither my son nor I think that the Green Party should just be rolled into the Democratic party. I'd like to see the Green Party's platform argued in the Democratic Party. And not all Democrats are positionless. Rose De Lauro, a Connecticut Democrat is cut from your cloth, Bobert. She actually chaired the last Democratic Convention's Platform Committee. Not that it did much good. But, she is extremely outspoken and has chosen to work within the Democratic party to try to bring change. One thing you and I have in common, Bobert. So far, neither approach has amounted to a hill of beans. Or even P-vines. AT least we haven't given up.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:33 PM

Couple of must reads for all those out there who are supporting the killings of Iraqi people while getting all warm and fuzzy in church on Sundays... TThat warm feeling just may be a prelude of things to come for the right winged Christains who would have Jesus jailed if He were to reappear today amongst us in the flesh...

The problem isn't so much with Faith but the fact that since the 60's the right wingers have split churches down the middle sending many a good Christain to fend wor himself... I have been a member of twochurches where that happened and it is not a pretty sight... And it is so un-Christain... And both of them turned on the ministers, who in each case, were preaching too much New Testament stuff which sesm to make the right wingers real uncomfy...

So, yeah, that have taken over the majority of the churches in the country... Tell ya' what... I pray every day that Jesus will return to clean up this mess that the Heathens have crated... It seems to be almost an impossible task for the real followers of Christ to take on...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:35 PM

Most people vilify lawyers, yet, when one of them gets to be president, suddenly he is supposed to be a paragon of virtue. Who is the fool here?

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:42 PM

Hear, hear, Kendall...

Spoken like a true statesman!!!

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 09:43 PM

Hey Clothes Guest: I've seen the title of the Wallis book in passing. Thanks for posting it. I just ordered a copy.

Hey Bobert... unless you have done a scientific survey of the churches in this country I suspect that your statement that the Right Wing has taken over the majority of the churches in this country is just a personal guess. I don't know how prevalent the Religious Right is across the country. They sure don't carry any weight in any of the churches I go to. I think they are primarily in the Southern Baptist branch. Even there, the previous Pastor of one of the churches I go to is Southern Baptist and you couldn't find a more warm, loving Christ-filled person than him. I'm sorry that you've had the experiences that you've had and I don't doubt their truth. It's just dangerous for us to take our own personal experiences and project them into a broad generality. When my sons used to do that, I'd say in my most sonorus radio voice, "According to a recent nationwide poll"... and then let my voice trail off. When they'd catch me making an unsubstantiated generality, they'd say the same thing to me. It was a humorous way to remind us all that we live in a very, very miniscule part of the world and it's foolish to project our personal experiences into broad generalities.
When I do it, I appreciate someone catching me on it...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:01 PM

Yer right, Jerry... I don't have any scientific data on this one... The two churchs I have seen split up by the conservatives were the Knox Presbyterian Chucrh in Falls Church, Va. and the Leesburg Presbyterian Church in Leesburg, Va... In both cases it were them folks who were against the Vietnam War that were sent packing... To this very day, folks who used to worship together don't even acknowledge each other in public...

It wasn't pretty and while I only say the Knox Church real close up, the Leesburg slpit I only had to hear about from my parents who were on the wrong side of the split...

When the P-Vine and I were auditioning churches a couple years ago we found several (in either Virginia or West Virginia) that were very intolerant... Fortunately, tho, we have found a church were folks very much are into the teachings of Jesus...

Plus, you live in New England and folks in New England are the more enlighted and tolerant, generally speaking, with perhaps the West coast... And, if I understand it correct, you also attend a predominantly black chucrh... Black folks, in general, get the New Testamant... When I lived in Richmond, I attended black churches because it felt right and the folks were tolerant (in general, that is...)...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:07 PM

I think this should be a music thread:

ONE MILLION LAWYERS
by Tom Paxton

Humankind has survived some disasters, I'm sure.
Like locusts and flash floods and flu.
There's never a moment when we've been secure
From the ills that the flesh is heir to.
If it isn't a war, it's some gruesome disease.
If it isn't disease, then it's war.
But there's worse still to come, and I'm asking you please
How the world's gonna take any more?

(CHORUS:)

In ten years we're gonna have one million lawyers,
One million lawyers, one million lawyers.
In ten years we're gonna have one million lawyers.
How much can a poor nation stand?

The world shook with dread of Atilla the Hun
As he conquered with fire and steel,
And Genghis and Kubla and all of the Khans
Ground a groaning world under the heel.
Disaster, disaster, so what else is new?
We've suffered the worst and then some.
So I'm sorry to tell you, my suffering friends,
Of the terrible scourge still to come.

(CHORUS)

(BREAK:)

Oh, a suffering world cries for mercy
As far as the eye can see.
Lawyers around every bend in the road,
Laywers in every tree,
Lawyers in restaurants, lawyers in clubs,
Lawyers behind every door,
Behind windows and potted plants, shade trees and shrubs,
Lawyers on pogo sticks, lawyers in politics!

(CHORUS)

In spring there's tornadoes and rampaging floods,
In summer it's heat stroke and draught.
There's Ivy League football to ruin the fall,
It's a terrible scourge, without doubt.
There are blizzards to batter the shivering plain.
There are dust storms that strike, but far worse
Is the threat of disaster to shrivel the brain,
It's the threat of implacable curse.

In ten years we're gonna have one million lawyers,
One million lawyers, one million lawyers.
In ten years we're gonna have one million lawyers.
How much can a poor nation stand?
How much can a poor nation stand?

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:12 PM

And then I found this, an oldie but still oh so true!!

IF YOU LOVE THAT POLITICIAN (PULL THE CHAIN)
by Tom Paxton

(Intro:)

Someone had the right idea out in Iowa.
Palo Alto County had its own straw poll.
Folks who listened to their radio
Were told to flush their toilets so
Their candidate might win the Super Bowl.
Folks in Emmetsburg have got things in perspective
And good common sense that they rely upon.
When the beaming smiles and golden throats
Come shaking hands and begging votes,
The folks in Emmetsburg head for the john.

(Verse:)

If you love that politician, pull the chain.
Send the world of woe and trouble down the drain.
It's the road to satisfaction.
It's a natural reaction.
If you love that politician, pull the chain.

If you like the things he said, use your head.
You can show the world you think he's thoroughbred.
Choose a favorite son or daughter
With a little running water.
If you like the things he said, use your head.

(Break:)

Do you get that familiar feeling
When you hear the things they say?
When they hum their familiar tunes
Do your thoughts all turn to prunes?
Are you headed for Hernando's Hideaway?

If the man gets through to you, use your loo.
If he's not Number One, he's Number Two.
He's the greatest guy on earth.
Why don't you show him what he's worth?
If the man gets through to you, use your loo.

(Repeat Break)

If you love that politician, pull the chain (pull the chain).
Send the world of woe and trouble down the drain.
It's the road to satisfaction.
It's a natural reaction.
If you love that politician, pull the chain.

When you see the ruling gentry,
Why, the answer's alimentary.
If you love that politician, pull the chain

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM

Yeah, Bobert, I am a member of a black Baptist Church. We also regularly attend another Baptist church in our area where the congregation is very mixed... mostly white, but quite a few active blacks in a small congregation. My limited experience with the Missouri Synod of the Methodist Church was very negative as well. Admittedly, it was only two churches, but both left a bad taste in my mouth. Generally speaking I have found the Lutheran Churches I have been involved with and the other branches of the Methodist church to be very open and welcoming. Guess it depends a lot on the Pastor.

Now if I was gay, I'd find the welcome in some churches noticeably different. Even there though, there have been openly gay couples in the Baptist and Lutheran churches I've attended.

But then, I don't worship church. I worship in church. And outta church.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:30 PM

The city council races here are supposed to be non-partisan and take in the whole city (which makes sense to me), but of course the political parties let it be known who they support.

Anyway, in the last election (November) a fairly conservative councilman was upset by a fairly liberal (for Idaho) minister. Eight votes to tie, nine to win. That's nine votes, not ninety. Both the winner and the loser are good people and seem to care for the community as a whole -- the loser got himself in bad with the business community!!

And the loser said, "No, I'm not going to ask for a recount. Recounts have torn this country apart and I'm not going to waste city money to do that. It's time for healing." And he shook hands with his challenger and they went off together to have a beer and talk about the city's problems.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM

Sounds like Luray, Rap... Nice story...

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 10:43 PM

Yeah, and what I didn't say is that the current Mayor, a Democrat when he was in the State legislature but now a no-party like the rest of city government (yeah, right) won reelection with two-thirds of the vote -- the same margin he won his original election by over a rabid neo-con. In fact, the extremes who ran for the Council all lost big time no matter WHICH end of the political spectrum they were on. That includes the choice of the Greens and the Libertarians, too.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: MarkS
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:04 AM

Glad I live in New Jersey. Our politicians are the best that money can buy.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: mg
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:58 AM

I hope that the citizens of the U.S. wake up and smell the roses because you have been given so much. Maybe thats the problem. You are like the spoiled, self indulgent rich kids who really don't give a damn about anything other than self gratification. Bush is just a symptom of decay.

---------

I am quoting from a previous poster. We are from the same part of the world. Do you honestly think folks from your home town are like that? Mine aren't. Does the response after the tsunami and after Katrina give any evidence of that? I think this is a gratuitous insult and should be reconsidered. mg

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 01:17 AM

"hey, pdq!..That list of Clinton's 'transgressions' is 1)old 2)largely discredited and shown to be accusations, not facts... and 3)is a list by an arch-conservative rag!

'Show me a list done by even a SEMI-neutral media outlet that takes that stuff seriously!" Bill D

Thanks, Bill. I can't understand the mindset and morality of some people who keep pushing out stuff that they MUST know is long since discredited. That is wholly dishonest. Not to mention that the people who do it are not doing any digging for themselves- they just cut and paste and then act as though they have accomplished something worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 03:58 AM

"Let ye without sin."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:19 AM

"Not you, Mother."

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:28 AM

Nescis, mi fili, quantilla sapientia regitur mundus.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:34 AM

(Know, by son, with how little wisdom the world is ruled - Julius III)

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:42 AM

Good Morning, Jerry...

Late night fir ya', I see...

Well, I guess it's only fair to point out one major dilemma that faces the Dems and I don't have a clue how, short of the "revolution" (non-violent, please) that I spoke of last night...

It's money!!!

The Repubs are better connected to corporate money and that's like an bottomless pit of cash...

Oh yeah, the Bushite's here will say stuff like Kerry had his "chairs" and "co-chairs" to go out and bundle money and they are right... Problem is that Bush had 2 and a half time more "rangers and "pioneers" bundling cash... Plus the goals for the rangwers and pioneers were twice as much as Kerry's ($200,000 and $100,000 for Bush's thugs and $100,000 and $50,00 for Kerry's)...

And the Bushites will howl that the Dems have their 527's and they are correct, the Dems do... But what the Bushites won't say is that they have the 501(c)'s which makes all the money the Dems collected thru 527's look likle chump change... This is why you don't hear the Bushites pounding on the 527's anymore... Yeah, the Busites did complain to the FEC (Federal Election Commison) about the 527's but when they learned that FEC was going to look at the 501(c)'s at the hearing the Bush laywers didn't show up to follow tghru with the complaint...

The largest of the 501(c)'s is "Americans fir Job Security" (AJS) which funnelled tens of billions of dollars in attack ads against Dems in the last election... The problem with the 501(c)'s is that they are totally un-regulated... The donors are not required to be made public and the amounts of cash has no limits!!!

The 501(c)'s arem in essence, shadow parties that have almost complete control of who gets elected...

If the Dems have any chance of breaking their lossing cycle thay have got to go public obn the 501(c)'s and be ready to offer up their 527's as the tradwe off... That would be a major start for them...

Sure the "pioneers and rangers" will still kick their butts $5 to $1 but, hey, get that extra $100M or so away from the Rebubs, will be well worth the sacrifice and will signal the first step toward the Dems standing up against "the best democracy money can buy"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 09:30 AM

Ah, Bobert, the 501(c)'s include (I assume) the 501(c)3's? Like the American Library Association and Harvard and the Sierra Club and the NAACP? 501(c)6's, like the Customers of Dynix, Inc. (a library automation system users' group) and the National Quilting Association and other "affinity" groups?

All of these are required to file annual reports with IRS or lose their tax-exempt status. NONE of them can contribute to candidates or lobby legislators on any level -- which is why they set up seperate groups to do this, and these fall under a different set of laws.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:07 AM

Actually I'm getting sick of politics ... times are concerning when all people do (in real life and cyberland) is talk about how bad things have become politically ... especially over the holidays when family, company go on and on about the assholes governing us and our big neihgbour south of the border.

so ... in the New Year I'm going to stay away from these discussions. Will vote in our upcoming Federal elections and I will stick to arguing with our city council about things that directly affect my community and where I can get some things improved ... even if they are 'small time'.

sIx

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM

'Scuse me, but...

Bobert: Check your PMs. Thanks.

Resume speed.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 01:35 PM

"Let ye without sin." Jerry Rasmussen

Jerry, I disagree that that sentence is applicable in this case. In this case the lie involves spreading slander.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 02:11 PM

about 'sin', accusations, Clinton, and party politics generally:
   It is really, really hard to find anyone in public life with NO little peccadilloes in their past. In this day of WWW searches, wiretaps, and party loyalists whose mission is to FIND dirt about the opposition, and if none is found, to spin rumors into accusations, it's a wonder ANYONE dares run for office! A number of years ago, the press, even when they KNEW stuff,(Roosevelt's and Kennedy's affairs) would not reveal it unless it were relevant.

Bill Clinton (and various Kennedys... as well as other past leaders from Churchill to Kings of England) were human and not perfect...but this bit the Republican are resorting to of trying to "win by innuendo" is getting a bit old!

I want to vote for a president on the issues and based on competence and vision and leadership...not on whether he is "a good Christian" or "supports abortion" or a dozen other narrow-focus bits.

I think we need an ENTIRELY new method of selecting candidates and a COMPLETE revision of the primary system. (and that law in N. Hampshire decreeing that "we MUST be the first primary" should be ruled unconstitutional!

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 03:20 PM

1. Let everyone vote on the same ballot regardless of their party affiliation. After all, if I'm a Democrat and want to vote for the one Republican I think is honest I should be able to do so.

2. Let each candidate be grouped by party affiliation. Under each party group is the "None of the above" choice. Marking that choice negates any other marking done in the group. And if enough voters mark it the partIES have to submit an ENTIRELY NEW set of candidates.

3. "None of the above" for each office in the general election, too.

4. All primaries are held on the same day, a National Holiday and enforced as such.

5. The day of the general election is also a National Holiday and enforced as such.

6. If you don't vote in general election, your taxes double for that year.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 04:49 PM

In Alaska, you have a choice of two ballots. One is for the Republican Party; the other is for all the other parties and candidates. I don't remember just when the Repubs started doing that but it's within the last 10 years, I believe.

I don't understand its rationale. I would think they would want crossover voters. However it might be an indicator of why the Republican Party has been so cohesive and party loyal and perhaps it demonstrates the fragmented condition of the Democrats. Frankly, I much prefer the fragmentation. Unanimity often frightens me.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM

Actually, Rap, you are only half correct... The report that is filed does not make the donors public, nor does it rerstrict the amount of money that can be funneled thru the 501(c)...

For a good read on the part of the 501(c) that flies well under the radar read Nicholas Confessre's "Bush's Secret Stash, Why the GOP war chest is even bigger than you think", from the Washington Monthly, May, 2004...

You are going to be amazed and if you could provide one of them blue clicky things, I'd sho nuff aoppreciate it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 02:11 AM

Bush's Secret Stash - By Nicholas Confessore

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Hrothgar
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 04:43 AM

I think that one of the major problems in the US is the same as we have in Australia - too many of the people in elected office have never had any occupation but politics, or at least have been n politics so long that they can have only very dim perceptions of anything else.

Don't even think about the second and third generation pollies ...

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 07:05 AM

100 !!

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 07:07 AM

101 is the new 99.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 08:45 AM

That's because the world is going backwards...as this thread demonstrates.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: leftydee
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 11:58 AM

How about a lottery for everyone of legal for the presidency, congress, state and local goernments. It couldn't be all that much worse and we may get some fresh thinking. Imagine if just one poor man had a little power.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 12:54 PM

What we seriously need is a system that does not depend on money to allow decent candidates to run without being beholding to interest groups! And we need a MUCH shorter process to avoid this 2, going on 3, years of maneuvering!

I'm not sure that having 'all' primaries on the same day is necessary, but some sort of rotating the early ones would sure be nice.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 01:59 PM

Have all the primaries on June 1. Close all offices and businesses except for the most necessary ones; no "Election Day Sales."

Campaigning is limited to sixty-three (63) days before the election, and must stop completely three (3) days before the election. Multi-partisan discussion of issues is NOT campaiging.

The general elecction is held on the same day as now. All of the rules above apply.

The Federal Government provides each candidate with an amount of money. That's it, all you can spend, even if you want to use your own money.

Candidates will at all times be hooked up to a polygraph, and if a lie is told they will be zapped with 3,500 volts and 25 amps of electricity. (Well, maybe not, but I can dream.)

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 03:09 PM

LOL! Rapaire, I'll vote for your plan...that'll make two of us!

All your points fit nicely on one page.....submit it for approval, and after ummmm....'editing', it will fill 17 loose leaf binders and resemble the tax code!

   I can't imagine even honest politicans in this country abiding a system that doesn't allow them loopholes and dispensations....when William Proxmire died, so did the only known reasonable politician.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 08:25 PM

We also need a weel of pollong so that folks who have to work can still vote... The current system tends to disenfranchise to poorer of out citizens who are working 6 days a week for minimum wage to survive...

(But, Bobert, these folks can vote early or vote by ansentee vote..)

Oh, right... How friggin' ethnocentric of you to bring that up... You need a few days on the bus at 4:45 in the mornin'...

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 08:40 PM

Nope, Bobert, we need the nation to truly OBSERVE Election Day(s) as a holiday -- a day off WITH PAY so you can go vote. Those who must work (cops and firefighters, for instance) will be allowed any day off with pay for the week before and after th election.

If you are eligible to vote and don't, your taxes are doubled that year and you don't get ANY deductions. And it stays that way until you DO vote.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM

I started my first job when I came to San Diego commuting on a city bus. Took me about 45 minutes just to get to work until I could afford a wee antique car. That was 22 years ago, IIRC. Mebbe 23, but anyway, I have also been so flat even the bus was out of reach. I am glad to say these conditions have changed, gradually but steadily, over the years. I have a paid for, if somewhat old, car. Yay. And a permanent address so the cops can't bust me for vag anymore. And a nice family, a steady job, and a house to call my own. So I guess these are the good years, if only I weren't such an anarchist commie pinko bastard... LOL!

I just received my annual pitch from the Libertarian Party. Lemme tell ya, I yam tempted.



A

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 09:06 PM

>>>Guest, AR282, voting straight Democratic is the lazy and easy way out. Take the time to figure out where candidates stand.<<<

Too late. You should have told that to the boobs who voted for Bush and put a republican landslide in Congress who promptly allowed their command-in-chief to use their legislative authority to make war on an unoffending nation via an illegal, trumped-up invasion. Inexcusable. Unacceptable. Intolerable.

No, my voting a straight dem ticket is actually very deliberate on my part. I want the republicans out. Period. Get out. I sampled their product and it sucked and I won't buy it anymore. They had their time in Congress and look what they did. Out, out, out one and all!! OUT!!

There would be a few pubs I'd be willing to vote for but none are from my state so it doesn't matter. Get out!

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 09:40 PM

What this country needs is voting on Saturday and Sunday. By the time the working man gets home from work on voting day he is too tired to go out again. Now don't scoff, I've seen it meself when working for a candidate for the US Senate.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Deda
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:51 PM

"Nescis, mi fili, quantilla sapientia regitur mundus."

Actually, this isn't a command, "Know, my son..", it's a statement: "You don't know, my son, by how little wisdom the world is ruled."

What do you all think the democratic party platform should be, realistically? Saying we need federal election reform is all well and good, and quite true -- but it's not really a democratic party issue. Here are the things I want the Dems to stand up for:

(1) Election reform, get rid of diebold machines and other insane, untraceable, unverifiable voting machines and give us back some faith in our election systems. Restore any sense at all that our gov't officials are actually elected by voters.

(2) Fight against corporate welfare & corruption: set strict, enforced limits on lobbying and campaign contributions, which demonstrably lead to such gross corruption as Mr Abramoff & his ilk wallow in.

(3) (this would be #1 but the others are pre-requisites) Do whatever it will take to restore the air and water, to preserve and repair the environment, to heal our biosphere, if it's still remotely possible, so that my grandchildren (and yours) will have any prayer of a life. This has to include a fast, complete divorce between Washington DC and Detroit, serious & immediate support to alternative energy sources, nationally and internationally. Get some well-funded, serious work going IMMEDIATELY on hydrogen, wind, solar, alternative transportation systems, biofuels -- just to start with.

(4) Get us back into the good graces of the rest of the world, admit and acknowledge that we're only one nation among many, not the king-pins of earth, apologize for the gross offences of the neo-cons, and get some cooperative brainstorming going on how to get our troops out of the Middle East, and how to calm and/or contain the whacko nuts in Iran. Pull down our troops around the world wherever safely possible.

(5) End the tax cuts, increase the taxes for the richest, reform the tax code. Work out a way to tax the American corporations who are operating off shore. Plug corporate loopholes. Legalize taxation of church property (not their income: if they give it all to the poor, spend it on soup kitchens or aids patients, then they don't pay taxes on it.)

(6) Organize a national health care system that covers everyone -- single payer. Get over ourselves, for god's sake, we're the only advanced western power that hasn't already put this in place ages ago. It will take some serious crowbar to get the death-grip of the pharmaceutical companies and HMOs and other profit-motivated greedheads off the necks of the American consumer (sorry about mixing my metaphors here), and I don't know if any dems are up to it -- but it's on my wish list anyway.

That's the beginning of my wish list. You guys say you're sick of the dems belly-aching and not providing a program -- here's my wish-list program, at least off the top of my head. What's yours?

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: leftydee
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 11:00 PM

Sign me up Deda. Now, how do we wrestle the party back from the closet Republicans that now control it?

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 11:02 PM

Vote well in 2006. That's step one, IMO.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:41 AM

Keep in mind that bad leaders are elected by good people who don't vote.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 08:10 AM

Hey, Deda... That's pretty much the Green Party platform ya got there, pal...

Works just fine fir me... Heck, if the Dems would adopt such a platform, I'd come on back and work fir them...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 08:52 AM

So, what else is new and exciting, Deda?

Get out and vote. Get everyone you know to vote. And vote for people who you have actually taken the time to (gasp!) study -- not their stand on a single issue, like abortion or tax cuts, but their WHOLE record. It's the only way.

And yeah, to vote intelligently you're gonna have to actually WORK at it.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: GUEST,The Jazz
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 11:09 AM

Saturday 31 December 2005, 12:22 Makka Time, 9:22 GMT

        Morales calls Bush a 'terrorist'

Evo Morales, Bolivia's socialist president-elect, has won a hero's welcome and a co-operation deal in Havana.
The Cuban government welcomed Morales' election as an important triumph over US influence in the region.
Castro said: "I think that it has moved the world. It's something extraordinary, something historic. The map is changing."
Castro, 79, sent his private plane to bring Morales to Havana, on his first visit abroad since winning Bolivia's 18 December presidential vote.
Morales, who has never hidden his admiration for Cuba's revolution, said he felt "joy, great emotion to be here".
Morales referred to Castro as "el comandante" and said his trip was a gesture of "friendship with the Cuban people".
Morales' visit to Cuba underlines the political loyalties of the leftist leader, who pledged to join Castro's "anti-imperialist struggle" in a message to the Cuban people the day after his election.
Castro said Morales' election was "something extraordinary" that had "rocked the world". Morales will be the first indigenous president in Bolivia, which has a majority of ethnic Aymara and Quechua peoples.
"Our brother Evo possesses all the necessary qualities needed to lead his country."
"Our brother Evo possesses all the necessary qualities needed to lead his country"
Despite US efforts to isolate Cuba, Castro enjoys very close ties to Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's leftist president.
Left-leaning governments have come to power elsewhere in the region, from Argentina and Uruguay to Chile and Brazil.
Castro said "during our discussion we were in touch with Chavez," but he did not offer further details.
A week ago, Chavez, referring to Morales' win, said "(US) threats have already begun. From here on in, we are demanding that the immoral imperialist US government respect the holy sovereignty of Bolivia and the government elected by Bolivia."
As an activist for coca farmers in Bolivia, Morales cultivated friendly ties with Castro for years and has pledged to support Chavez's effort to defeat a US-proposed free trade area.
Evo Morales is Bolivia's first indigenous president
During his campaign, Morales described himself as Washington's "nightmare".
Morales has struck a more moderate tone since his election, promising Bolivia's business leaders that he will create a climate favourable for foreign investment and jobs, and will not "expropriate or confiscate any assets".
Morales won the presidency with nearly 54% of the vote - the most support for any president since democracy was restored to Bolivia two decades ago.
Morales has vowed to nationalise Bolivia's large natural gas industry and end the US-sponsored coca eradication programme that he says has hurt farmers and failed to curb drug trafficking.
Morales has described himself as Washington's nightmare
Castro and Morales signed a co-operation agreement late on Friday that would boost Cuba's medical and educational assistance to Bolivia.
Among the poorest and least developed countries in Latin America, Bolivia none the less has a literacy rate of more than 87%.
On 3 January, Morales will embark on an extensive international tour, including visits to Spain, France, Belgium, South Africa, China and Brazil.
Morales has invited Castro to his inauguration ceremonies on 22 January.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:57 PM

I like your ideas in your 02 Jan 06 - 02:28 PM post, Rapaire.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 03:35 PM

Thanks. I really think that the best thing the country could do would be to get Washington out of DC.

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM

Been basking in the Florida sun the last four days and see that this thread has grown like Topsy. Yeah, the "Let ye without sin" quote doesn't really apply here, because that would mean that none of us could contribute to this thread. I feel that political crookedness and misuse of power needs to be outed. I just feel that trying to come up with an accurate list of proven transgressions by different politicans of the present and past, and then somehow trying to "prove" which politician was the crookedest clouds the issue, as it doesn't balance the discussion with the good that they did. Many great men in history had a long "Rap Sheet" of offenses. It didn't negate the good that they accomplished.

As a parlor game. wouldn't it be fun if somehow Mudcat could post Rap Sheets for each one of us? Then we could compare our failures and see who has fallen most short of the Glory. If that actually happened, I'd change my Mudcat name to "Who, Me?" faster than you can say "I am not a crook!"

Safe in obscurity...

I remain

Jerry

Subject: RE: Sick Of The Democratic Party
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 11:11 PM

"wouldn't it be fun if somehow Mudcat could post Rap Sheets for each one of us?"

Because there is an informal policy about keeping non-music posts to a single screen, I am afraid that I would not be able to post my own rap sheet.