Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM

Yeah Rick. But I do have to take issue with one thing...................we have to call someone about those damn hills..........I don't see the need for them........take them someplace else for the weekend........LOL.

The second night that I stayed up until 5:00 AM was spent with Jed, Jeri, and a bunch of FSGW'ers at two different sessions. Wonderful lot, these folks.

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:23 AM

I think in retrospect I have to agree with you Marty. The threads really aren't that similar. Lotsa good info here.

Heck, the first time I looked up that hill that led to the "white house" (where some fine workshops were held) I thought, 'maybe I'll camp out half way up'. After doing it seven or eight times, I was in great shape...even felt a bit like "Rocky" by the time I reached the top!

Rick

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

I missed out on a big chunk of the Mudcat jam session on Saturday night because I was jamming with a bunch of FSGW people whom I had never met before, and I'm incredibly glad I had the opportunity to do that. But the reason I was doing that was because a Mudcatter (whom I had also not ever met, or even encountered in the Mudcat), and FSGW member, Judy (momnopp) heard that I play the accordion, and with a generosity that I have found plenty of in both groups, went and hunted down a squeezebox player for me to jam with. And I'm grateful to her for doing so.

On the other hand, I enjoyed the feeling at the Mudcat jam in a different way than I enjoyed the other jam. Neither one of them was better than the other. Just a little different to me. I'm really thankful that I had the opportunity to do both things.

The two things feel different to me, but in a good, even complimentary way, I think. I'm glad I experienced it the way I did. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: marty D
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:22 PM

I'll have to agree with Jon. Although I've never been to something like the FSGW, the tone of this thread has been one of understanding and politeness, without the whining and 'I quit' mentality, that often comes up in the 'let's fix Mudcat' threads. It sure sounds like everyone had a great time.

marty

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:06 PM

...and DO watch out for "threading drift"...

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Tinker
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM

Jeri, Is this the kind of thing you mean by adult silly games???? As my 14 year old would say " visualize." TIE THE TEAM TOGETHER You tie a spooon on a ball of string and then thread it up the sleeve and down the leg of the first in line then up the leg and down the sleeve of the next til the team is tied together. The catch is that if you are being threaded you can't move or touch the string or spoon... your teammates must do it for you.....Nevermind .....

KAthy

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:01 PM

Ya know, this is interesting, but it strikes me a bit like the constant "let's fix" Mudcat thing.

Strikes me as bieng quite different. In this thread I have seen people involved in the FSGW invite comments, say it can be used as a "feedback form", seen questions about policies answered, noticed possible willingness to change or consider little details like people being announced "from Mudcat" in a concert, recognisition of the different needs of people, had opening conversation to give feedback on similar situations eslewhere. etc.

Quite a contrast I would have thought.

Jon

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:43 PM

Dottie is my Muse! She plays banjo uke almost exclusively, and is know to play some songs from the 20's too. I liked her playing so much that I'm now trying to learn banjo uke too.

JAB

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:14 PM

Seems to me that she usually plays a banjo-uke rather than a standard ukelele. I heard her at my first Getaway (the last one at Prince William) and was greatly impressed.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

yup..Dottie is one of our local 'Uke ladies'....(the other didn't come)...Dottie has compiled a wondrous collection of songs from the 30s & 40s...but will also do a ballad and who know what else!...she also brings wonderful desserts to the potluck..*grin*, thus winning two places in my heart!

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM

Dottie Hurley.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:46 AM

That was SINSULL. The uke lady sang "God Bless America" at the Saturday concert.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:44 AM

I actually approached at least three, maybe four Bruces, all but one friendly but none an Olsen or a Mudcatter. Next year, BruceO.
Who was the lady with the ukelele? She had wonderful music and a great sense of humor.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:46 AM

One of the simple and less obnoxious ones I have run into - "pair off with the person seated next to you - you have five minutes to discover one unique or unusual thing about that person." then they ran around the room with each person doing a real quick Name, from, item introduction of their partner.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: DeanC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:41 AM

I've had mixed feelings about having brought up this thread earlier in the week. I've wavered between worrying that I may have made some of the Mudcatters feel unwelcomed to the Getaway and being pleased with the open discussion of the issues. I'm pretty firmly in the latter camp now. There has been a lot of intelligent, inciteful discussion here, and in fact I think probable solutions to the problems have been arrived at.

Allan - We used to have "ice-breakers" at the Getaway. They took various forms including a dance and taffy pulling. One that I thought was fun was a scavenger hunt. This one had the twist that what you were hunting for was people. For example, "Find someone who has been to Madagascar." There was such a person (Jerry Navratil for those who remember him). In fact we did this for a few years and those of us making up the questions thought of more and more ridiculous quests without knowing whether anyone would fit the bill. Amazingly, there was always someone there that was the answer to every question. We gave out silly prizes to the person who got the most answers. Ask my wife (Carly) about the mock apple pie some time. I think we stopped doing these ice-breakers because the Getaway got a bit stagnant in that the same people were coming year after year. We mostly knew each other, so these little games became superfluous. But I think we were wrong because we were, without bad intention, shutting out those few newcomers that were showing up. With the influx of new faces - welcomed new faces - in the last couple of years I think we should have and still should re-establish some kind of ice-breaking event. Thanks for reminding us!

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Nancy King
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:59 AM

Jeri, regarding joining FSGW as an out-of-towner, you -- and anyone else who wants to -- would be more than welcome to do that, and there is another option as well: one can get an out-of-town subscription to the Newsletter for a much lower price than a regular membership. It gets you the Newsletter only -- no reduced admissions to events (including Getaway) and no voting in elections, etc., but you do get the news.

And Jeri, I thought your singing was great! I envy your ability to sing loud! I should have said so in person, but somehow it didn't happen. There are a lot of folks I wish I'd spoken to. I will next year!

I think there was MUCH less distinction this year between Mudcatters and FSGW members than was the case last year, and I think if we take some of the steps mentioned above, such as no separate Mudcat cabins or jams, we'll do even better. As for a Mudcat 10th anniversary blowout, I think it sounds like fun, but it should NOT be a part of the Getaway, lest we exacerbate the problem we're trying to solve here.

Since we do seem to have a lot of cabin space available, I definitely would appreciate having one or maybe even two of them set aside for music-making at night. In fact, I'd like to see a cabin or other alternate site for workshops too. The gym, with its stage, is OK for the concerts, I guess, but really isn't very hospitable for most workshops or for jamming.

Many thanks to Jennifer, Charlie, Rita and the many others who worked hard to give us this terrific opportunity to get together. I've been in your shoes and I know how much you put into it. I'll be back there with you one of these days. I was amused that Dean Clamons credited/blamed me for getting him involved in volunteering for FSGW. Truth be known, I also recruited Jennifer Woods. Hey -- I'm a great judge of volunteers, what can I say?

Cheers, Nancy

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:41 PM

One other thing I alluded to above, Jeri, is that I can usually do whatever the situation absolutely demands. But sometimes the demand has to be rather persistant, though. I know you were kidding, but if it were decided that such an event should take place and if NOBODY was going to make it happen, I would very nervously jump into the breech.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:06 PM

Allan, are you volunteering for the Adult Silly Games workshop? (hehe)

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:51 PM

I suppose it may be useful for me to point out that on Saturday night, Max and I went "head hunting" to try to find some people to jam with. When we got to the dining hall there was a huge throng in the TV room - a mixture of FSGWers and 'Catters. We (more in a moment about "we") recruited anyone who was not in the TV room. As it turned out, virtually all of them were Mudcats. That was how the jam in #10 began.

Now, having said that, I will have to admit a huge shyness on my part. I am not sure I could have walked up to someone I didn't know to invite them to join us. Mostly, I stood idly by while Max boldly and loudly touted the (then) non-existent jam to anyone who would listen. I secretly admired that he could do that. I was having a hard time doing so - even with people I knew!

Most of the time I am rather shy. Being overtly friendly with strangers is quite difficult for me. Fortunately, sometimes I can force myself without (I hope) seeming to be forcing myself.

An example of my shyness lies in the fact that I would not have ever dreamed of asking Janie to sing with me for the open-mike. It is not that I didn't enjoy singing with her. It is just that I am rather reticent with people who are new to me. Fortunately, Janie took the initiative to ask.

I wish I could have trotted up to various FSGW "strangers" and spoken with them. Some, I recognize from previous years. I even attended one of the monthly "sings" at the home of one. But I'll be damned if I can ever remember her name!

Aye, there's the other piece of it. As stated in another thread, it is so very helpful in social situations if a person's name can be recalled. I tend to avoid people whose names I can't remember so as to avoid admitting the embarrassment. I could tell you tales...but not in this thread. I know full and well what the solution is. I just can't seem to make myself take that step.

Gee I didn't mean to get this far into my own personal foibles. But I did want you to realize that there are folks like me among both groups.

Hey! I just had a thought...I have been to more than my share of the kind of cocktail parties that they used to throw in the 50's and 60's as well as a number of more recent seminars. Often these things have started with some games or "team building" exercises, the purpose of which is to introduce people to each other. They usually serve the purpose quite well. At the bare minimum, people get to know the names of the people on their "team". Usually these are silly little games - I am sure many of you have experienced them. What if we did something like that at the start of the Getaway instead of the "Who Are These People?" sort of thing (...er...not that this was a bad thing...no, I didn't mean that at all). Waddayathink?

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Tinker
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 PM

Just my two cents.... Last year was not only my first Getaway, but it was also my first Reality based Mudcat Experience and my first exposure to the "Folk scene" all at once. To say that the collective energy and emotion blew me right out of the water is probably an understatement. I loved every minute of the whole thing, but just getting to know Mudcatters seemed like plenty. Yet when I finally offered a song it was in a song circle where I didn't recognize a single Mudcat face. ( And it was the only one I did all weekend.) By Sunday night I was waltzing with Jeri and feeling very at home. I came home with FSGW and Mudcat faces both imprinted on my brain and everything was much more comfortable this year. I even braved the ballad circle and with cajoling sang. Lisa Null (I think) later said she enjoyed it and that too sits as a high point for the lady who's usual singing is in an open field over the din of 100 campers. Like Jeri and others above I'm often insecure in putting myself forward musically. It's a loved hobby that I don't have nearly enough time to study. I usually go away jealous that I'm to far away for all the wonderful activites and releaved that I won't have to try and fit them in my schedule (at least til next year).

This thread has made me think and a "come join us" is certainly easy enough to say.

Tinker

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM

my friends, (both Mudcat & FSGW friends)..this is amazing!..the very existance and thoughtfulness of this thread shows it is working!...as several have pointed out, some out-of-towners have better attendance records than the locals! (Dick Greenhaus,Susan of DT, Keith Baldwin, Sue & Charlie West & Dick & Marlene Levine come to mind)....

as to late night sings...trying to plan them is like herding chickens! I know several people who 'can' fit into almost any music that happens, and others who have a narrower focus...and it often DOES happen that a planned 'group' in a planned location gets sidetracked because someone got there first! So...where do we go? "Over to my cabin...pass the word"..and it works better some nights than others. And...lets be right up front with this...the dynamics of any given group change as people get up, sit down, need to eat, pee, or have a smoke.

....and you ALL know that in any group there are those who want to do every 3rd or 4th song, even if there are 17 people there...do the math and imagine what goes on inside the heads of those who are thinking,"hey, no one is asking me to sing, and I am way to shy or proud to just butt in"...so they get up & leave, looking for a less competitive venue. I do know that at one point, Rick Fielding practically held up a red flag and said "It's Bill's turn!"...*grin*...bless you for noticing, buddy.(and I didn't ruin "Black Waters" too badly, huh?)

...anyway, it IS a good idea to have 'places' identified for singing, even if the exact nature of the gatherings vary, (and sure, it is handy to be near the dining hall for quick access to coffee and snacks...but,,,*shrug*)..[that back part of the dining hall is just one long set of rooms, and acoustics carry..hard to have pickin' in two rooms close together]

this was my 23rd consecutive Getaway, and I sure plan on 20 or 30 more, because NO MATTER HOW they go, they are always wonderful, if you allow them to be!...and Mudcat has made them better.

If Mudcat eventually has weekends of it's own, great!...I suspect that a 10th anniversery gathering might be best timed for a 'safer' time of year...we are rolling the dice with this late October thing. But if is does happen, there will sure be a contingent of FSGW members wearing out 'other' hat! *grin*

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:46 PM

It's OK Bruce. I think I was there more for song support and crowd control - Barry was the one with the experience and knowledge. Wish I'd at least said "hi" to you, but I didn't want to bother you. (Just me being chicken.)

I don't know much about the song. I got it from the Johnson Girls' CD. The notes say it's a capstain shanty, from the James M. Carpenter collection. It was collected from Welsh seaman William Fender of Barry Docks, who served at sea from 1878 to 1900.

The "Midway Plaisances" mentioned in the song were built for the World's Colombian Exposition, which opened in 1893.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM

Bruce - no problem! Wish we had gotten a chance to talk - as I am more then in awe of your work. And shows how rapt I was in the singing I didn't notice how long you were around.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:13 PM

Sorry Jeri, forgot to note that you were co-leader of the sea shanty workshop. How about explaining the significance in your song of "Fire down below"?

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM

On second thought, I believe Barry did a West Indian shanty that I hadn't heard before, either. Not something as well-known as the Saltpeter Shanty. Sorry for the thread creep...

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:05 PM

There was definitely another Bruce there, who gave a very good back rub! Must've been a third or fourth Bruce.

Didn't Barry do the Saltpeter Shanty? (Bruce, I was very happy to see you sitting there without your fingers stuck in your ears while I was singing!)

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:42 PM

Sinsull, I assure you that wasn't me. There was at least one other Bruce there that I know of, but that one also has a computer. (Whether I own a computer or it owns me, however, is a different question.)

Mmario, I was at Barry Finn's Sea Shanty workshop for the first hour, and his lead-off song is one I'd never heard before. I had to leave at 5:30 PM Sunday. My night vision is poor and I had to get to familiar roads by nightfall. Sorry I didn't spot the name on your badge earlier. I appreciate all the hard work you've done trying to get all the tunes for the songs on the Mudcat Cafe and Forum. I was a day-tripper only and missed the Saturday and Sunday night concerts. I met several other Mudcatters there for the first time, but I know I missed many others, and certainly had no harsh words with any.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:25 PM

I'm going to have to start commenting on stuff as I work my way down the thread, there's too much for my puir wee brain to remember!

Charlie, we used to have cabin "style" preferences on the registration form, didn't notice if they were there this year. We asked about late-night vs quiet after 10pm; kids; men-only and women-only; snoring/non-snoring and whether people snore (some people lied though....) AND, we asked if there were specific people you would like to share a cabin with. (Sorry, we do NOT ask if there are people you'd rather sleep in a gravel pit than share a cabin with :-) but if you end up with one of those, there are always plenty of empty bunks in other cabins.)

If you don't see those questions on next year's forms, holler at us and we'll fix it. (This is the royal or editorial "We," since it's Charlie who will actually do the work....)

I believe that one reason some people feel a bit uncomfortable with the Mudcat presence, is that we have had to move the camp much farther from Washington and also raise the price a bit, and a number of people can't make it, especially if they have lots of kids. Day-tripping has gotten much harder because the travel time is closer to 2 hours now than 1. So we are missing a lot of people who used to be regulars. Don't know what we can do about it but we're going to try to improve the situation for those people.

I've been trying to think of good places to officially designate as late-night jamming areas. In the old camps, it was easy: we had plenty of spaces that would work, and were close enough together to walk to comfortably. The White House is only good for the quieter types of music after 10pm, because one reason people end up staying there is that they need their rest (me, for example....)

Any suggestions? Is there a close-in cabin we could suggest? How about the handicapped cabins, if they aren't being used in a given year? Is there a cabin we should reserve for late nights? Maybe it should be a central cabin, so people can stagger back to bed without getting lost....

[As I read more of the thread I saw that Jennifer suggested the same thing....]

There's no point in trying to specify what kind of music/jams/ballads/singing will take place in a given location. You can lead a folkie to a venue but you can't make 'em sing if what they want is pickin' and vice versa. We'll just try to suggest some good locations.

About joining FSGW and getting a newsletter, Jennifer, you are closer to it all than I am, but I know we have a LOT of out of town members, I can't believe it's any problem.

Oh. And, Charlie, would you ask the camp if we can somehow put a light and a sign in the long driveway, or at the gazebo-or-whatever-it-is, to give people some idea how to find the dining hall at night?

Back to my article. Have wasted two hours picking out photos to go with it, now I have to write captions and I'm supposed to be making a few wood things for Saturday's show.... how time does fly.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

There is an art to encouraging the shy person sitting in the corner to sing or play. If you want to observe an expert practitioner or two, watch Sandy and Caroline Paton host a song circle. There are, of course, may others who are good at this. Last June at the Old Songs Festival, I watched Bob Zentz and Joel Mabus lead a song circle with equal skill. I daresay there are many Getaway regulars who are practiced at it, also. It's an ability to open an invitation and apply exactly the right amount of attention to encourage without embarassment, and to be willing to table the invitation and offer it again a little later if there's shyness. It's an art to learn!

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:36 PM

Oops - newsletter is every month, not every year.

Rick, there seemed to be no pressure at all. The events and meals were scheduled, and you knew what cabin your bed was in. Other than that, where you went, what you did, who you did it with, and when you did it, were all up to you.

Maybe, if there's a chance people will feel hesitant about joining in, there should be something in the program about "Any cabin music is open to all."

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM

You are right Jeri, people always have to be sensitive, and there are times that I simply want to be a corner sitter. But I sure appreciate the invitation just as long as a feel that It's not required or I am being forced to do anything. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Another thing about Ramblewood, is that it is BIG and at night things are hard to find. My brother showed up un-announced Saturday night. He later told me that he almost drove away because everything seemed so quiet and dark. And I know that there were at least 4 jams/sings going on at that time. It is a little easier to roam at other events I have been at simply because they are more dense.

JAB

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM

There *were* some people there who weren't billeted in the cabin - heck the only reason *I* knew that there was anything going on in our cabin was that I was in the front hall of the dining room when Max yelled something about "Heading back to the cabin to sing"

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:39 AM

Yep, I am dead in the same corner as Rick on this one. And this wasn't an anomaly. All three of the Getaways I have been to have been the same. I have never felt separate, or unwelcome. The Mudcat's relevance in this gathering is only that of a resource that caused me to discover this gathering. I am very, very proud of our Mudcat, but it doesn't rate as a divider to me. The Getaway is a gathering of folkies.......period. And I am going to join FSGW because of that bunch of folkies. They are savvy, understand the music, loaded with talent, warm, welcoming.........all the adjectives apply here. They run a gathering that is not matched by any other I have attended. It is free of snobbiness, and there was not a "Folk Nazi" to be found. Everyone was just enjoying the music. If a workshop or a session didn't suit you, you just moved off to another, or started your own.

With regard to the cabin sings, I would just like to say that ours was open to anyone that wanted to come in. But having said that, I would ask the Mudcatters the following: How many folks did we ASK to join us? Some of the comments here by long time attendees are worth pondering. In order for us to be accepted in this community, we have to reach out a bit and integrate a bit more.

Now.............. I really do have to get to the studio or I will be shot.......LOL

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:20 AM

Jeri! So that was YOU farting in the bathroom!

Just kidding...I was billeted in "The Pines", and it would have taken a nuclear blast to reach my ears.

Ya know, this is interesting, but it strikes me a bit like the constant "let's fix" Mudcat thing. Believe me, the dynamics at Ramblewood were FAR superior to any similar event I've participated in over 32 years. There seemed to be absolutely no VISIBLE hierarchy, and that amazed me. I never once got the feeling that the folks in charge (which ALWAYS means the ones who've volunteered hundreds of hours in preparation) weren't having as much agenda-free fun as everyone else...and that's rare.

It still may be difficult for shyer folk to jump in, but having "been there", I'll bet that many of the more extroverted musicers once WERE shy. It takes time and encouragement, and I saw great gobs of that at the Getaway.

Still smiling from the experience.

Rick

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:10 AM

Ill second that opinion Jeri - I'm amazed at how easily I am able to interact - both at the Getaway and at Old Songs; I have other functions I attend with people I have known much longer - and my usual modus operenda is to sit in the corner - and a few people come by- but mostly I "people watch" - trying to drag me into the thick of thinks is almost garunteed to make me leave. I think part of it is that at both Getaway and Old songs there is so much to do and see I don't have time to "just observe" ; but everyone is different this way.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:53 AM

Jennifer, I like that "just friends housed together."

If Getaway attendees all joined FSGW, we'd really throw a spanner in the works. Heck, it doesn't cost anything extra when you figure the membership fee is deducted from the cost of the Getaway, plus we get the wonderful newsletter which tells us about all the stuff we're missing because we're not local! I haven't done this, because it means someone will have to print and send a newsletter to me every year. It means I may be asked to vote for FSGW officers. I wouldn't do that, because I don't know them well enough - I'd leave it up to local folks who knew what nominees were about.
What say FSGW members?

One note on drawing quiet folks into a group - don't try it! I'm a not-shy person with a lack of confidence. Truly shy people can be very confident about certain things, but are uncomfortable with interpersonal communication with people they don't know.

There's nothing scarier for both types of corner-sitters than to try to drag them somewhere they don't want to be. Sure, invite them, but don't push. If they like the corner, let them stay there until they want to come out. Introduce yourself, tell people you like something they do, smile at them, but don't try to draw them into a conversation, or the next time they see you, they'll walk the other way. The point is for people to feel comfortable being who and where they want to be, and not trying to change them. The latter is about your comfort level, not theirs.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:50 AM

...this is such an insightful discussion of group dynamics I thought I'd add my one cent. Feeling left out, or "not in with the in crowd" is often an adolescent developmental issue that if unresolved, leaves people feeling left out in adulthood with no resources to change this.

The solution is so well described here. Take responsiblity for operations! An adult approach! Pitch in as a helper, volunteer, workshop presenter, admiring participant, bathroom cleaner or cook.

Next year, when Nathan is off to college I hope I can go and be a volunteer. Glad you all had so much fun....Abby

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Knitpick
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:24 AM

As the housing czarina for the Getaway, I thought I'd throw in a few comments. It has became obvious to me that next year there will be no "mudcat" cabin per say, just friends housed together -- AND we are going to choose a cabin --as far away from any other-- with no one sleeping there -- to be the "late-night alternate jam location" alternate being from whatever is going on in the dining hall rooms, or the gym (which to my mind is not a nice place for a jam -- jams need to be in smaller spaces -- you know -- how many can we cram into this room and still make music? --space). And make sure that it is shown on the map handed out when folks arrive. I'm not sure about the White House, as people sleep there, but I do know that front parlor looks like a wonderful jamming space. And I agree, even as the MC on Saturday night who mentioned who was FSGW and who was Mud, that I shouldn't do that -- just whether it's the persons first, etc. Getaway -- and how wonderful it is to have them there. I thought that the 'catters integrated very well with the FSGW folks -- and there are FSGW folks that come every year to the Getaway that I still feel I don't know -- except for a name on a registration. And this was my 21st Getaway (my husband's 35th?). (My husband jammed with Keith Baldwin on Saturday night, and couldn't remember his name, and was ashamed to admit that he knew Keith had been coming for 20+ years!)

As DeanC said, we're still figuring out how to use Ramblewood.

And about snorers --we gave up trying to put them off by themselves -- there are WAYYYY tooo many of them. Hench the big box of ear plugs at registration. I don't know of a cabin that didn't have a "known" snorer in it -- mine certainly did! (And it's not my husband!) I know of at least 25+ identified window rattling snorers, and with 110 staying there, it's hard to keep them from disturbing others. And the ear plugs work folks!

And I think all the 'catters coming is helping to revive the getaway -- it was getting stagnet. Lots of wonderful new friends to see again every year! And if I find the time, to check in with on the 'cat occaisionally.

jennifer near dc aka knitpick

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: DeanC
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:42 AM

I'm very much encouraged by what I've read in this thread. The fact that so many have indicated that they did not percieve any problem if good. I noticed only a few subtle things that I won't even go into here. I probably notice some of these things because of my past experience in organizing FSGW events. I'm a little more sensitized to them.

I think we make a reasonable effort to deal with everyone's sleeping preferences. In fact, cabin assignments are not written in stone. If you need to change for some reason arrangements can be made.

The issue of separate jams going on at night is as old as the Getaway. It seemed that I used to spend half the night at Prince William Forest Park wandering around looking for the right one to join. There was usually a rock and roll jam called the Cabin B Boogie that I always felt uncomfortable going to because it seemed to be a bunch of friends jamming. I later got to know most of those people pretty well, and I now realize that the problem was mine. I think that one difference at Ramblewood is that some of the jamming is going on in the cabins. Some people may feel uncomfortable about crashing the party in someone's "living room." However, with the arrangement of this camp the cabins make some of the best spaces, so I think we will just have to get used to it. I think it is significant that we are relatively new to Ramblewood. We're still learning how to best use it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:14 AM

Spaw. I guess I have to admit it .... I am an engineer ... overanalyzing and trying to solve problems is in my blood.

I do take what you said seriously and have reread everything here.

From the first thread I have tried to get across that I think Real world groups and on-line groups are good for one another. Our example is FSGW and Mudcat.

At the sametime, I agree that drawing attention to the Mudcatters at the Getaway is no longer needed, or even desired. I'm an FSGW member that happens to be a Mudcatter. Likewise I'm a Mudcatter that happens to be a FSGW member. Like you, I don't think that having a 10 year Mudcatter Celebration at the FSGW Getaway would be a good idea. I like the idea of having both so I could go to both !

We are never going to be able to address everyone's "feelings", nor should we. I felt what I felt in the past. It was just a statement trying to show how both groups benefit from the relationship. FSGW doesn't just get people at the Getaway from the Mudcat. They get new/old members like me that may start going to events, volunteering, or interact with people that they never would in the real world. Heck, I even was intimidated by Judy Cook which just seems plain impossible now. I thought the Mudcat helped remove barriers and divisions, not create them. If people want to sit in the corner and be grumpy, let them. The rest of us will go about having a good time with everybody else. However, if people are sitting in the corner because they are shy, or don't know how to introduce themselves then let's pull them in (not to Mudcat, but to all of the activities in general).

My suggestion on cabins was not necessarily to overcome bad feelings, but to maybe help bring people together. There were people that tried to go to sleep early in our cabin, and I know last year at least one person was very uncomfortable with our shared bathrooms and me in my boxers and t-shirt (I think she would have fainted this year). Those types of preferences can be planned for.

Anyway, I will try to stop engineering in public.

JAB

P.S.

I do have a question though. How do other real world organizations in England, Canada, or elsewhere in the states interact with overlapping groups.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:54 AM

Caroline and I normally gravitate toward the late-night singing sessions, too, since neither of us are sufficiently adept on instruments to jam with the pickers, and both of us are very ballad/trad oriented. I was just coming back from near total voicelessness five days before the Getaway, and Caroline was just beginning to come down with a similar affliction, so we eschewed all late-night gatherings. A good ballad sing in the parlor of the White House might have been nice, since we were in the front room right off of the parlor and the songs could well have lulled us to sleep. Maybe next year?

We also seem to have one foot in GWFS and the other in the Mudcat. Many GWFSers are friends of ours stretching back over several decades. We don't sense a great division between the two camps, if there is one. When someone is introduced to us by his/her Mudcat handle, we're grateful, as we're glad to be able, finally, to put a face to a nom de 'net. After that, it's just "welcome to the party," regardless of affiliation.

Caroline is wonderfully able to walk up to perfect strangers and say, "Hi, I'm Caroline. Who are you?" (I'm too insecure to do that.) Then, when she introduces them to me, she can usually tell me their names, where they live, how many children they have, what kind of music they like best, what kind of music they hate most, and what they had for dinner last night. Very few of us have that skill. Her only trouble comes from being unable to read name tags or buttons, or to recognize people from more than a few feet away. Please keep that in mind, folks.

So -- we did miss the great late-night quiet "group sings" this year, but that was our own fault. If either of us had been in better voice, we could have started one somewhere. Next year, for sure!

Sandy

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:01 AM

Charlie, sounds to me like you all put a lot of thought into this event and try to cater for our own individual needs and dare I say "strangeness" (I am certainly strange) pretty well.

Jon

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:04 PM

Jeri and everybody--these thread are extensions of the feedback forms.

And we'll make sure there are jamming spaces beyond the dining hall/TV room building. The Gym was available, though nobody used it. The theatre barn was probably too drafty for night-use, though available. And there's the parlor of the White House that went unused. And I can think of another 3 or 4 places we didn't publicize that might be good places.

Lorraine--I missed the late night a cappella song circle, too, but like you, I also had a cough/coldish thing, as did many other of the usual late-night ballad/song singers.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:58 PM

Lorraine, next year, please ask me about the cabin! Ask Mick. Well, if there IS a cabin.

By the way, I think you nailed it with "Relationships take time-so it is for the merging of families. " It's happening - just not as fast as some people expected or would like.

Charlie, I LOVE the earplugs! I don't even mind snorers when I have earplugs.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:42 PM

I'd probably just base my choice on whether or not I'd be embarrassed if I farted in the bathroom, ran into someone with a small, or no amount of clothing on (either me or the other person). I like not having to worry about doing something that bothers someone because folks will know me well enough to tell me, or tell someone that does know me. For the record, there are some FSGW members I'd feel comfortable with, and there are some Mudcatters I don't. (And it's not that I don't like someone or even anything they do, it's just how relaxed I feel around them, and that is TOTALLY based on my personality weirdnesses.)

As far as partying till 4 AM, we managed that in the TV room of the main building on Sun. Actually closer to 5, I think. I am STILL recovering!

I think an awful lot of this thread is devoted to imagined perceived problems anyway. I think we're trying to fix things when we don't know what's broken, or even if anything is. Obviously some people had problems, but they might have been isolated incidents, like SINSULL's experience. Maybe we'll get more information when the feedback forms are all in.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:34 PM

Actually, we try to gather information about attendees at the Getaway (sometimes based on years of knowing the people involved) and put people together in cabins we think would enjoy rooming with each other. We try to put jammers together. Kids in the same age groups (with their parents) together. There are actually several cabins for privacy for those who request it. We forgot to ask for information about snorers this year (though we did have a supply of earplugs available for the taking at the registration table). We'll have to ask more carefuilly about snoring next year--the gentleman in Cabin U who ket many awake with his snores, for example. And there were some folks we relocated from the jamming-late cabin to quieter accommodations. (Should have had them in the quiet cabin to begin with!) Anyone is welcome to bring a tent or an RV. Tents may be pitched almost anywhere. The only bad news news for Jon Freeman is that smoking is prohibited in every building at the camp. (The good news is that there are butt-bins on many of the porches.)

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM

I must have had too much spiced rum, because I didn't notice any division at all. Everyone was most gracious and friendly. This weekend was the most fun I ever had with my clothes on, and nothing spoiled any part of it. I am most grateful to GWFS for the invitation, and, I look forward to next June when I will be at your meeting.

As far as someone being too shy to ask me to sing a particular song, I hear this so often, and it really makes me sad. If someone goes out of their way to request a song from me, I am most grateful for the chance to share what the creator gave me. Dont believe me? ask Dani. She saw the real me.

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,Lorraine
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM

I am kind of shy. Probably consider myself a FSGW person not really much of a mudcatter- don't follow the BS threads usually and drop out for months at a time. I love to sing, but not being an instrumentalist I tend to avoid those jamming. I missed Old Getaway times when someone would say "hey there's singing going on in so-and-so's cabin. Come on." and off we'd go. But I never did find the late night singing- actually I was fighting a coldish thing and was better off going to bed 1 o'clock. I would have felt quite uncomfortable going to the mudcatter cabin to sing- shucks I'm not even sure which one it was. I should not require a special invite. Most of this I see as my problem of lack of assertiveness. I was touched that Mick greeted me by name and that I hugged Jeri good bye and of course I love KarenK. Relationships take time-so it is for the merging of families. -Lorraine

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:43 PM

I'm glad I read this thread, not for the main debate but because it has brought home to me that I never would survive the Getaway or similar events. I just can't handle set times for this and that or the community sleeping. Which leads me to a question to Jeri as she said it was important to her:

How would you choose who you share a cabin with? To me, if I had to do it, I really couldn't care less whether I was with people I knew or not - the big thing to me would be being with a crowd that would party (musically) till at least 4 am, if smoking is allowed in any, would wish to be a in a smoker... 11:30pm and lights out.. would kill me. Is there ever any segregation based on those sort of factors?

As for the main point of the thread, while I am inclined to agree with the viewpoint that some feelings of segregation are unaviodable, and I have no experience of this event (which appears to have gone well oveall), I do feel that the attitude "I have an intreset in folk music and got to know about this/someone else through Mudcat" is rather more healthy than "I am Mudcatter".

Jon

Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:31 PM

Rick - Thanks. Yes, too bad but not important in the grand scale of things. My Getaway highlights will come Sunday after I get some sleep.