No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics also Raglan R
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:11 PM

Luke Kelly made changes to Raglan Road which do not improve the song.
First line Kelly sings "of on an autumn day" whereas Kavanagh wrote "on an autumn day". Perhaps the Dubliner thought the "of" was more in keeping with the poet's rural background.
Also in the same verse he sings "I passed along the enchanted way" instead "I walked along...".
In the last verse he sings "That I had loved", it is "That I had wooed not not as I should", which sounds better. Assonance rules especially in Irish poetry.
But I still love Luke Kelly's singing.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:33 PM

"The Floo'ers O' The Forest was composed after the Battle of Flodden as a lament for the fallen of both sides"

The earliest version we actually have was written by Jean Elliot a Scottish Borderer some 200 years after Flodden though it was inspired by an earlier lost ballad of which only a couple of lines remained. If you read the words it is definitely mourning the loss of the Scottish dead only. The Flowers of the Forest were the young men of Ettrick Forest just as the Flower of Scotland were the men of the Scottish army at Bannockburn. By tradition, though it is probably much exaggerated, of all the men who left the Selkirk area to go to Flodden only one returned. His name was Fletcher and again myth has it that he waved the captured English flag (which still exists in Selkirk) over his head before he too fell.

"Dule an wae for the order, sent our lads tae the border; The English for aince by guile wan the day; The Flowers of the Forest that focht aye the foremost, the prime of our land are cauld in the clay"

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:34 PM

Songs change in the singing - typically someone singing songs they made themelves will change them over the years, consciously or unconsciously. For example, words that look right on the page wille elide into words that sing better.

It's not uncommon for people who regard an early version (which has been recorded) as holy writ to complain that the person who wrote it in the first place is getting the words wrong. Or the tune.

What matters is whether any changes are for the better, whoever makes them. If they are for the better they will probably be the words and tune that stick, in the long run anyway.

I always find myself turning to Sydney Carter when this comes up. "You change a word, you bend a note; did it work or didn't it? What you put down, in the end is nothing but a variant...There is nothing final in the songs I write...I would like them to keep on growing, like a tree. They have a form, I hope; so does a tree. But it is not fixed and final."

That doesn't mean anything goes - but the reason for resisting changes should be because they damage the song, not because they aren't quite what the person who made the song first put down.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 10:37 PM

Who is in The Dubliners these days?

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: BobKnight
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:26 AM

As the original poster, and a songwriter myself, I am well aware of the changes that take place over the months or years. That happens with me singing my own songs too, but the changes I am referring to are more than that.

Here are the lyrics I originally downloaded off the internet:- Green Fields Of France How do you do, young Willie McBride, Do you mind if I sit here, by your grave side And rest for a while in the warm summer sun, I've been walking all day and I'm nearly done I see by your grave stone your were only nineteen, When you joined the great fallen in 1915 I hope you died well and I hope you died clean, Or Willie McBride was it slow and obscene Chorus: Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly Did they sound the dead march as they lowered you down Did the band play the last post and Chorus Did the pipes play "The Flowers of the Forest." Did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind, In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined Although you died back in 1915, In some faithful heart are you forever nineteen Or are you a stranger without even a name, Enclosed there forever behind a glass pane In an old photograph torn, battered and stained, Fading to yellow in a brown leather frame Chorus Willie McBride I can't help wonder why, Did all those that died there, know why they died Did they believe when they answered the call, Did they really believe that the war would end war For the sorrow, the suffering, the glory the pain, The killing and dying were all done in vain For Willie McBride, it all happened again, And again and again, and again and again Chorus The sun now it shines on the green fields of France, There's warm summer's breeze makes the red poppies dance The trenches are vanished, long under the plow, There's no gas, there's no barbed wire, no guns firing now But here in this graveyard, it's still no man's land, A thousand white crosses, in mute witness stand To man's blind indifference to his fellow man, And a whole generation butchered and damned Chorus

And here are the lyrics I took from Eric Bogle's Youtube video. I'm not saying they are perfect, but if you compare both side by side, I think you'll be amazed at the amendments and sheer invention. No Man's Land How do you do, Private William McBride, Do you mind if I sit here, down by your grave side And I'll rest for a while in the warm summer sun, I've been walking all day Lord, and I'm nearly done I see by your grave stone your were only nineteen, When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916 Well I hope you died well and I hope you died clean, Or Willie McBride was it slow and obscene Chorus: Did they beat the drum slowly, did they sound the fife lowly Did the rifles fire o'er ye as they lowered you down Did the bugles sing the last post and Chorus Did the pipes play "The Flooers of the Forest." And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind, In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined And though you died back in 1916, To that loyal heart are you always nineteen Or are you a stranger without even a name, Forever enshrined behind some glass pane In an old photograph torn, and tattered and stained, And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame Chorus Well the sun's shining now on these green fields of France, The warm wind blows gently and the red poppies dance The trenches have vanished, long under the plow, No gas, and no barbed wire, no guns firing now But here in this graveyard, it's still no man's land, The countless white crosses, in mute witness stand To man's blind indifference to his fellow man, And a whole generation who were butchered and damned Chorus And I can't help but wonder now Willie McBride, Do all those who lie here, know why they died Did you really believe when they told you the cause, Did they really believe that the war would end war For the suffering, the sorrow, the glory the shame, The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain For Willie McBride, it all happened again, And again and again, and again and again Chorus

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:01 AM

An example of what I consider an effective antiwar poem is The Soldier Poet by Miltos Sahtouris. It's written in Greek, but several translations are available on the internet, one here
.

It was made into a very beautiful song by Giannis Spanos, but I don't think it's available on the internet, and the original album is probably out of print.


Jon Corelis
The sweet nightingale: A Cornish song

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:25 AM

I'm not affected, because it tells me nothing. I'm not even sure what it's saying except that war is noisy, scary, and frustrating. So's a ride on the NYC subway. Trust me.

Here's what I think of as a true and affecting war poem. It's well known. There are others; this one just popped into my head first:

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/vergissmeinnicht/

And I hope we're all familiar with "Dulce et Decorum Est."

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: breezy
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 02:45 PM

Having heard Eric sing his song I must add that the only other recorded version that has done justice to it is June Tabor's rendition on Anthology. If you have never heard it then you are unqualified to pass judgement on it. better still , if you dont have a copy at hand stay schtum.

I cant help but think that the Fureys pounced on the song to get 'in on the act' and subsequently rushed and hurried and dis-respected the finer points of the lyric of the song.

I will never forgive them for murdering and foisting it upon a world wide audience who nevertheless appreciate the song .

And all because the word 'Green' is present in the lyric and in a version of the title.

Eric is probably most grateful for the benefits the song has bestowed on him , but I wouldnt mind betting that part of him wishes it had been a better rehearsed effort.

He had recorded an earlier song entitled 'For King and for Country'

If one cant stay true to the original then sometimes it is best left alone.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: breezy
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 03:08 PM

Eric wrote in verse 4        

''Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause'? ''


This line on its own can maybe explain even more and hold greater significance for some who would wish to hijack a song.

just a thought

        


  
        


Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 03:10 PM

Bob Knight's comparison goes to the heart of the matter. No one is ever satisfied with what they wrote. The true artist is his own harshest critic, and there's always a better way of saying what you wanted to say. Even if your thinking hasn't changed a bit in the meantime.

Since if it's worth anything at all, a song is (at least partly) a message- conveying an idea- the effectiveness of the song lies in how well the idea is conveyed, not how well the actual word sequence is preserved.

So listeners almost inevitably change the words to match their interpretation of the idea. It's this that drives the folk process- mutations are seldom random and sometimes totally beneficial. So don't get too uptight about changing the words, if the sense is maintained.

On the other hand, pure garblings by professionals illustrate the premium these often place on presentation and slickness over content. And the fact that these garbled versions often get the greatest circulation shows that their strategy pays.

Music doesn't always benefit from "an injection of quality", unless quality has a wider meaning than being in tune and playing the right chords.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 05:49 PM

> ''Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause'? ''

A trick question, sadly. If yes, he's a sheep. If no, he's either a sheep or unprincipled or didn't have the guts to go to prison.

There's also an assumption that whatever "Cause" "they" told him about   was obviously a lie, and that now, being dead, he'd see it that way. Are we sure?

It's easy to get dead people to agree with us in poems. It happens in "Willie McBride's Reply" as well (also in "Flanders Fields"), just from a different point of view.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:23 PM

The traditional versions of the popular ballad "Johnnie Cock" (Child 114, better known today as "Johnny O'Breadiesley") that I've seen have various endings: the poacher, Johnnie, having killed or wounded those sent to stop him, is himself wounded or killed, or after having to fight swears not to fight or hunt again, or in at least one version, is pardoned by the king. The versions I've heard by Ewan MacColl on his anthologies (don't have them at hand to listen to now so I'm quoting from memory) end with the unharmed and unrepentant poacher proudly boasting that he will keep hunting all he wants to. I don't know if there is actually a traditional version with this ending, but I suspect MacColl made it up himself for political impact: triumph of the working class hero against the upper class landowner.

Incidentally, I've always assumed this ballad was the distant ancestor of the 1958 Johnny Cash hit "Don't take your guns to town," though I have no way of proving it. It's at least plausible, I think, that whoever wrote the song (I don't know if it was Johnny Cash himself) was adapting an American folk ballad which was a variant or descendent of Child 114.

Jon Corelis
Jon Corelis: Poems, Plays, Songs, and Essays

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:38 PM

I wonder what version of "Flowers of the Forest" Bogle had in mind. The pipe version has a completely different feel to the song - it's a rather uninteresting march tune. The pipes can't play anything like the original. My guess is that Bogle was imagining something that could never exist, the pipes playing it with the expression and modal flexibility of a singer.

I detest the plodding verbosity of Bogle's songs. Brian McNeill is just as bad.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 09:50 PM

The best war story I know was one told by an old American WWI veteran (long since deceased, of course) with whom I had some connection, and who had been through some of the worst battles of the war. The story, in its entirety, was: "At Argonne, the captain said 'Charge!', and I stepped behind a tree."

Jon Corelis
Windows of Air: Songs by Jon Corelis

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:17 PM

MacColl's "Johnny o' Breadislie" came from John Strachan of Fyvie (1875-1958).

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM

I've listened again to the version on "By Request" and watched the live version on utube, and I am convinced that Eric sings:

"Did the bugles sing the last post in chorus."

Rog

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:31 AM

I'd agree with Rog - that's the way I always do it, apart from singing in my native accent.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 06:02 AM

I wonder what version of "Flowers of the Forest" Bogle had in mind.
I am sure he was familiar with the pipe lament often played at miltary burials and remembrance.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:10 AM

Since there are more than one bugle, "in chorus" has the virtue of making sense.

"And chorus" doesn't.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Cathie
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:33 PM

I'll never understand folk. Starting a few years ago from the viewpoint that I learnt a song with correct tune, phrasing and words, I've heard accolades of 'he made it his own' , 'liked his version' etc. and so became less anxious if I didn't rigidly follow the music score. Regarding the thread topic, I heard and learnt the Fureys version long before I had heard of Eric Bogle (gasp) and very rarely sing it and only in specific folk clubs. It doesn't offend my ear any more to hear an unfamiliar version of a song I know. I heard the Eric Bogle version once but it was so mumbled, or my hearing so impaired, that I couldn't follow the words anyway. I'll never understand folk.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 10:00 PM

Do you mean "I'll never understand folk music" or "I'll never understand people"?

Either way, I shouldn't worry about it. Follow your bliss!

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: pavane
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:55 PM

June Tabor's version was always the definitive one for me - great singing and the right words. I cringe whenever I hear someone sing the Fureys' vesrion

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:22 AM

"I cringe whenever I hear someone sing the Fureys' vesrion" I suppose people are used to the lyric they hear first. Like you I much prefer the Bogle lyrics which I heard before the various Irish bands versions. It is also a much better lyric though. For example the original "The countless white crosses in mute witness stand" is far superior IMHO to the Fureys singing "the countless white crosses stand mute in the sand"

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Brakn
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:59 AM

Different words, different chords, different tune, different tempo; perhaps it would be better if we only performed our own songs!

;-)

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Marje
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:23 AM

The folk process can being about improvements but in the case of a carefully crafted modern song, it's unlikely.

For instance, I've heard "Irish" versions (possibly the Fureys?) that replace "The trenches have vanished, long under the plough" with something about "the sun shining brightly from under the clouds" or similar. This makes little sense (how did the sun get under the clouds?) and loses the reference to the lost trenches. It's not a deliberate change, it's a lazy forgetting-and-reworking of the words that has been equally lazily copied by others.

On the other hand, there's one change in the "internet" version quoted above that I think is for the better. The line in verse two: "Forever enshrined behind some glass pane" is replaced by "Enclosed there forever behind a glass pane." I think this is better because the word "enshrined" is already in that verse a few lines above, and it avoids that repetition.

I suppose what I'm saying is that as long as people think about what they're singing, and make deliberate, informed choices, the result is likely to be pretty good. What is not so good is lazy and thoughtless churning out of words that don't make sense, or which lose some of the subtleties of the orignal version.

Marje

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:51 AM

This makes little sense (how did the sun get under the clouds?)

A low / rising or setting sun will often shine from under the clouds.