BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:22 AM

Gee, Boo - nowhere in that heart-warming made-up story with no documentation whatever does it explain how the man ended up in chains.

Perhaps he had been interrogated by the IDF or Mossad?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:58 AM

Well, if you thought the stories about the Hamas were not true regarding the forcing of Palestinian civilians to stay in the locations where the IDF will strike, think again…actually in this case you don't need to think, just look.

This is a Palestinian civilian of Gaza who apparently has a mental disorder and who was found by an IDF soldier, bound, gagged and staved. This is a tactic of the Hamas. He would have eventually died from either starvation or an IDF strike on this location if it contained terrorists or weapons, which is what the Hamas wanted to happen.

Luckily there was no strike and this humane IDF soldier found him and freed him, then gave him water

IDF Soldier Helps Chained & Starving Palestinian Man In Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:52 AM

Well, it took all of 90 minutes for the terrorists to breach the ceasefire.

An Israeli soldier was abducted in the Rafah area of Gaza, in an attack perpetrated some 90 minutes after the onset of a truce, an IDF spokesman said Friday.

The attack, which included a suicide bombing and involved enemy gunmen emerging from a tunnel shaft, came at 9:30 in the morning, during the early hours of what was to have been a 72-hour truce, and may signal a significant escalation in the 25-day-old war with Gaza.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:30 AM

I don't care what Hamas subscribes to - I don't support Hamas and never have.
I am concerned with human beings and what is happening to them - not a century ago, but now.
Go and squabble about maps somewhere else.
"Why not try convincing Hamas to stop attacking Israel?"
Count the dead women and children, the destroyed hospitals and schools, the devestated homes and work out for yourself who is attacking who - it really isn't difficult.
"Neither Keith A or myself ever stated that we approved of anything of the sort."
"all you have come up with is some sniper rifles"
"Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it."
"Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferable to live rounds"
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots."
All in relation to the sale of military equipment to a dictator in the process of slaughtering his people is approval enough for me.
"Export Licence applied for and approved in 2009"
Move in the right direction I suppose - you have always claimed it was never approved.
Assad was murdering and torturing for at least ten years before the Arab spring demonstrations - he should never have been sold military equipment in the first place - but are you seriously claiming that snipers shooting down Syrians in 2011 could not have been trained two years earlier - are you out of your mind?
The officers directing the slaughter would have had to be seasoned veterans - receiving their training - when exactly (please don't try to bluff your way with pseudo military bullshit - leave it for the pub tonight)?
It boils down to a simple point really - Britain shouldn't sell anything to fascist thugs - we were aware of Assad's human rights record and his torture chambers yet he was sold arms and equipment).
"Where? When?"
You didn't claim that Pinochet overthrew an elected government murdered those he did because the ignored the constitution?
Must have been somebody else posting in your name.   
He was a soldier and he headed an extremely bloody military coup, slaughtering thousands in the process - Thatcher, by describing what he did as "democratic", supported that coup and the results of it - you by denying her part in it and by describing Pinochet as "Good/Bad, just like Cromwell" supported what both Pinochet and Thatcher were - political thugs - enough to confirm my opinions of you.
"studiously ignored..." -nothing - I have given my opinion over and over again on all the questions you have raised
You have a habit of ignoring answers then claiming they have not been given.
The only tangible point you have made is that the Gazans should surrender and throw themselves at the mercy of the people who have just butchers over a thousand of them, destroyed their homes schools and hospitals and are set fair to do so all over again if their demands aren't met
Sorry - no time to waste on right-wing headbangers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:53 AM

"Fuck your maps and your claims of Hamas and israel"

Not MY maps Christmas - those linked to are the maps displayed by Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and by Fatah. They all have duped you useful idiots into believing that they seek a Two-State Solution - so where is Israel on THEIR maps? Doesn't exist does it, which is why the Israelis are fighting.

"Both the Muslims and the Jews have occupied these lands for millennia, both have an equal right to a peaceful life there"

YES precisely, now get me any quote from any member of the Leadership of Hamas who subscribes to that. The second they do they will have peace with Israel (Don't take my word for it ask the Egyptians, ask the Jordanians ask Mahmoud Abbas)

"Why in gods name should I have to explain anything"

Ehmmm Christmas because that is what you are generally supposed to do in the process of discussion or debate - you Muppet. By the way I would love to see any quote from anything that I have written that illustrates my "support" for General Augusto Pinochet - As for Margaret Thatcher certainly IMHO she was one of the best peacetime Prime Ministers Great Britain has ever had.

"Legally purchased - 1847 and 1919" my arse, let's see a way to stop thugs bombing hospitals and slaughtering patients,

Why not try convincing Hamas to stop attacking Israel?

"Your selling weapons or equipment to Assad was another of your monumental foot-in-mouths."

Care to supply any proof that I have sold any weapons or equipment to Assad

"Whether it was 'sniper rifles' (identified by Keith as such ""You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.") or sniper bullets is immaterial - both you and he approved of their sale to Assad at the time his snipers were slaughtering the people of Homs."

Oh dear Christmas, not very good at details are you? Neither Keith A or myself ever stated that we approved of anything of the sort. There is actually no evidence to support your contention that any sale ever took place - only that an export licence had been granted. As for this bit:

"...both you and he approved of their sale to Assad at the time his snipers were slaughtering the people of Homs."

Export Licence applied for and approved in 2009 - Assad's forces open fire on protesters in Homs in March 2011 - See anything of a bit of a disconnect there Christmas?? - Like TWO F**kin Years!!!
   
"You recently added the refinement of support for a murderous South American dictator"

Really?? Where? When?

By the bye Christmas how many questions of mine is that that you have now studiously ignored because the truthful answers to them would blow most of your wildly inaccurate assertions to oblivion? I await your usual response in the form of a rant consisting of nothing more than baseless assertions, downright lies laced with lashings of indignant emotive claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:49 AM

"Show me a map detailing the borders of Palestine and Israel agreed to by Hamas"
Fuck your maps and your claims of Hamas and israel
Both the Muslims and the Jews have occupied these lands for millennia, both have an equal right to a peaceful life there - if old maps don't cater for that fact they are of as much use as those showing Mercia and Wessex.
It's time you people who want to instigate wars over ancient borders or religion are made as much a thing of the past as are the Empires which created these messes in the first place.
Why in gods name should I have to explain anything to somebody who supports political monsters like Pinochet and Thatcher (really dropped that ball, didn't you?)   
"Legally purchased - 1847 and 1919" my arse, let's see a way to stop thugs bombing hospitals and slaughtering patients, or is that ot to your taste?
Your selling weapons or equipment to Assad was another of your monumental foot-in-mouths.
Whether it was 'sniper rifles' (identified by Keith as such ""You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.") or sniper bullets is immaterial - both you and he approved of their sale to Assad at the time his snipers were slaughtering the people of Homs.   
Both you and Keith came together in support of selling military equipment to a murderous fascist dictator
Your support went something like this:
"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim.
Britain does not make Kalashnikov rounds".
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferable to live rounds".
"Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it.""
Which more-or-less sums up where you are coming from.
You recently added the refinement of support for a murderous South American dictator who directed the rape torture and murder of thousands of his opponents in the name of "constitutional" democracy.
To date, your sole contribution to this discussion has been to suggest that the Palestinians should surrender themselves to the people who are slaughtering their men women and children and destroying their homes, schools, and hospitals.
If I wanted to tête-à-tête with an extremist I'd go to the B.N.P or 'White Supremist', or Muslim Watch', where they have, at least, refined their extremism into a sort of coherent policy, rather than swap insults with a toy soldier with the amusing habit of waving his gun around (any chance of showing us it again?)      
Go and play soldiers in the garden and we'll call you in when your dinner's ready
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

Homs thread?
"I've made my views on Syria known, only to be met with suggestions that it was acceptable to sell Assad sniper rifles"

Not one single "sniper rifle" was sold to Syria by the UK Christmas - You claimed incorrectly they had been.

Your grounds for stating that rifles had been sold (with the inference that they had been sold by the British Government) was based upon a report that a licence had been granted to an independent arms dealer to export ~100,000 rounds of Standard NATO 7.62mm ammunition in 2009 - No evidence exists as to whether that sale ever took place, only that a licence had been granted.

What is my point Christmas?

1: Show me a map detailing the borders of Palestine and Israel agreed to by Hamas, Fatah and the Palestine Authority Unity Government that delineates the "Two State Solution" that the Palestinian leadership (All shades) says they are fighting for. There must be one surely, if you believe what they say - True?

Hamas Map of "Their" Palestine

The above map is for 3rd Graders to complete of Paøestine from an exam set in one of their schools in 2002-3. Care to point out on that map where Israel is Christmas?

Map of Palestine

Fatah Map of "Their" Palestine as shown on TV


2: Tell me why the ONLY Palestinian Refugee Camps in existence are on Palestinian territory controlled by Palestinians and in the lands of their Arab neighbours who were the ones that encouraged the Arabs of Palestine to reject the "Two State Solution" offered by the UN in 1947 and opt for War instead?

3: Please explain to me why:

"Any Arab, including his/her descendants, who can show that they worked in the mandated territory of Palestine for a minimum period of 18 months between 1923 and 1948 has a "Right of Return" while Jews:

- Who have lived in parts of what is now known as the West Bank for hundreds or years have none.

- Who legally purchased land between 1847 and 1919 during the Ottoman period have no right to reside in Israel.

The 18 month thing above is the established UN criteria - look it up.

A 72-hour Humanitarian ceasefire is now in place - let us see what happens. Hamas has always said that although it governs and controls Gaza it is incapable of controlling terrorist groups operating in their midst - If that statement is true then rockets will continue to fly, if not then their previous claims were total bullshit.

As part of this negotiated ceasefire (Which Christmas, implies that Hamas have been consulted and have agreed to it) IDF troops remain in their existing positions inside Gaza and NO Offensive operations can be undertaken by either side - that does leave the IDF free to destroy tunnel networks they find inside the territory they currently control - I repeat Hamas has agreed to this and has accepted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:59 AM

So... Israel is now slagging off The UN, possibly believing their own propoganda. Both sets of militants have agreed a humanitarian truce for a short while.

Notice it is humanitarian.

It isn't about the issue. The issue is about the blockade. Egypt will not lift theirs unless and until Israel do because that would mean the exodus of Gaza and refugees till the cows come home. Israel won't because the blockade is a convenient safeguard for their aggressive land grab.

The small hope is exceedingly small, but now The USA is realising the wisdom of The UN at long last, we might see progress. Israel's self determination as they put it is as the 51st state. USA funded, both financially and morally. I doubt Washington would react so kindly to Texas pushing into Mexico, murdering and waving prayer books along the way. The retaliation of Mexico would be seen more objectively.

The comments of the war mongering armchair warriors here is fascinating, not to mention repulsive.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:43 AM

"The point is that the world treats Israel the same now as then"
The point is that Israel has dropped now let the mask drop and exposed themselves in their true colours for the vicious thugs they are
What remains the same is the usual suspect pack of nodding- dogs who shuffle behind them defending their thuggery.
It will be interesting to see if the U.S. will continue using its U.N. veto to protect them from the consequences of their behaviour, or will have the balls to step aside and let them be tried for the butchers they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:21 PM

The point is that the world treats Israel the same now as then

Yes, John you're right to a degree: Israel is permitted to get away with things that other nations are not and is praised for things for which other nations would be condemned. Then, and now - only a great deal moreso now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:57 PM

"So Israel agreeing to a "ceasefire" out of one side of their mouth and saying they will certainly violate it out of the other side is admirable in your book, Boo?"

They are going to find and destroy those tunnels, that is their stated goal. Better they do it during the ceasefire and no one gets killed or do you prefer they do it during hostilities so that more Gazans die for the sole purpose of vilifying Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:12 PM

Well, poor thin-skinned Greg, you patronize very easily, then. Perhaps you should find a different sandbox to play in, with friends whom you can control.

By the way, the point you seemed to get from my posting of Hoffer is that I was defending Israel in this case. It was not. The point is that the world treats Israel the same now as then, and whether they defeat a big foe (then), or a smaller fo(now)e. And whether they are treated as all other nations, which by and large they weren't and they aren't.

As to a 'holocaust', if it comes, it will not involve just Israel and Jews...it will likely envelop much of the world. Not looking for one soon, but maybe if the world doesn't get its act together...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

So Israel agreeing to a "ceasefire" out of one side of their mouth and saying they will certainly violate it out of the other side is admirable in your book, Boo?

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:39 PM

"Humanitarian ceasefire in 7 hours?"

Israel has said they will continue to destroy the terror tunnels ceasefire or no ceasefire, I hope they stick to that commitment.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:35 PM

Israeli officials argue privately that UNRWA simply should not exist. They say Palestinian refugees should be defined and treated like any other refugee group around the world. They say UNRWA serves a Palestinian narrative fundamentally intolerant of Israel's existence. They say UNRWA disseminates a relentless, one-sided, emotional and problematic message that is implicitly anti-Israel.

Read more: The trouble with UNRWA | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-trouble-with-unrwa/#ixzz395X8CU6j

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:19 PM

No, the LINK did not patronize me, but your POSTING did. Don't wait too long for that apology, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM

Well John I know very well who Hoffer was and am familiar with his history and writings, but thanks for the patroniizing bit anyway..

If you follow and read from the link I gave, you will find I did not patronize you. Or is soliciting an opinion at the end now considered patronizing? I will expect your apology for your gratuitous comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:05 PM

Humanitarian ceasefire in 7 hours?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:55 PM

Well John I know very well who Hoffer was and am familiar with his history and writings, but thanks for the patroniizing bit anyway..

What do I think, John? I think that was 1968. This is 2014.

I also think some of the statements are fatuous in the extreme, even then.

e.g. 1. If Israel survives, it will be thanks to their own efforts and resources.


Well, John, lets then cut off the billions of U.S. aid and LET Israel survive "on its own resources". Yes?

and 2. If Israel perish, the Holocaust will fall upon us all.

Prescient? Please.

I also think the atrocious treatment of the Jewish people thru history
does not exhoneratesubsequent and/or current Israeli government atrocities.

Finally, I think you would do well to read some of Hoffer's later comments and observations written closer to the end of his life, after witnessing Israeli government behavior for several decades following 1968.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:33 PM

John on the Sunset Coast-

Hoffer was, and is, right on. Reminds me of the Israeli author Ephraim Kishon who wrote "Unfair to Goliath" shortly after the 1967 War. Goliath's wife is lamenting: "I don't know what to tell the little children, they keep asking, 'Has daddy killed all the Jews yet?'"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:53 PM

"You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist." Indira Gandhi

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 04:05 PM

It should tell you everything you need to know about someone who unquestionably accepts everything coming from a terrorist group committed to the genocide of all Jews and rejects anything coming from the Jewish side.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM

" was quoting from the ACTUAL GENEVA CONVENTIONS, which you obviously have NEVER bothered to look at."
Your information on the finding weapons in hospitals came from the two Zionist rags I mentioned.
Israel threatened to bomb hospitals and schools from day one of the slaughter - the earliest reports of their having done so cites 3 hospitals and 70-odd schools
Up to now, their excuse has been that there were Hamas fighters in the vicinity - now surprise, surprise, after several horrific cases of UN shelters being attacked, their propaganda machinery has uncovered hidden weapons caches - better late than never, I suppose.
The Nazis were a bit better at it, but the Israelis are catching up fast
Still no comment on the pilot showing he knew exactly who he was bombing - no surprise there either.
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:12 PM

Sorry, Jimmy boy.

"If your information comes from extremist Zionist propaganda rags like Inquisitr or Arutz Sheva it doesn't even begin to have credibility as information.
There is no confirmatio of this information whatever oyher than the aforementioned 'sources'
"


MORE of your lies. ** I ** was quoting from the ACTUAL GENEVA CONVENTIONS, which you obviously have NEVER bothered to look at.

Now, since you have swallowed ( and insisted was the truth ) EVERY statement from HAMAS ,

PLEASE tell us what YOU accept as valid fact- So far, it seems you have "SRS SYNDROME" _"I'll ONLY accept as fact what agrees with what I want the facts to be."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

"IF a hospital or school is used as a military site, such as to launch or store missiles, IT LOSES IT'S "PROTECTED" STATUS under the Geneva Conventions. "
If your information comes from extremist Zionist propaganda rags like Inquisitr or Arutz Sheva it doesn't even begin to have credibility as information.
There is no confirmatio of this information whatever oyher than the aforementioned 'sources'
Oldest trick in the world for terrorist states - blame the victim - the Nazis perfected the technique.
You didn't mention the fact that the Israeli pilot just interviewed demonstrated to beyond doubt that he knew exactly that he was attacking hospitals and schools - but then again, you wouldn't, would you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 02:45 PM

http://uthinkithink.weebly.com/1/post/2013/05/israels-peculiar-position-written-in-1968-by-eric-hoffer.html

ISRAEL'S PECULIAR POSITION
by Eric Hoffer-- Los Angeles Times May 26, 1968 (Eric Hoffer's Bio Below)

ISRAEL'S PECULIAR POSITION by Eric Hoffer - LA Times 5/26/68
The Jews are a peculiar people: what is allowed to other people is forbidden to them.
Other nations drive out thousands, millions, and there is a "refugee problem." Russia has, Poland and Czechoslovakia have. Turkey expelled a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchmen. Indonesia drove millions of Chinese and no one says anything about "refugees".
But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs become eternal refugees.
The world insists that Israel must take back all.
Arnold Toynbee said that the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity was greater than any committed by the Nazis.
Other nations victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, she has to ask for peace.
Everyone expects the Jews to be the only "true Christians" on this planet.
Other nations, when they suffer a defeat, survive and recover, but the day that Israel is defeated, it will be destroyed. If Nasser had triumphed last June [1967], Israel would have disappeared from the map and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews.
No formal commitment made ​​by any government to Jews, including those issued by our own government, are worth the paper they are written. The world outrage mounts a scandal when civilians die in Vietnam or when two rebels are executed in Rhodesia. But when the Jews Hitler murdered in cold blood, no one protested against it.
The Swedes are prepared to sever ties with the United States for our war in Vietnam, but they did not say a peep when Hitler slaughtered Jews. He was sent to Hitler his best iron ore, bearings for their tanks, and gave service to train troops sent to Norway.
The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be thanks to their own efforts and resources.
However, at the moment, Israel is our only true unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than they can depend on us. We just have to imagine what would have happened last summer [1967] if the Arabs and their Russian allies had won the war to realize how vital Israel to America and the West in general.
I have a hunch that will not leave me alone, what happens to Israel will seal our own fate. If Israel perish, the Holocaust will fall upon us all.

Eric Hoffer was a proletarian thinker. He worked as a stevedore at the ports and became philosopher of common sense. He wrote columns for newspapers in the U.S.. He was not Jewish ... was an American "walk".
Born in 1902 and died in 1983, after writing nine books and received the Distinguished Presidential Medal of Freedom ... the highest civil order of the U.S.. His first book, "The True Believer", published in 1951, was recognized as a classic.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This op-ed (though I think the term not in use then) piece was written shortly after the 1the 1967 war. Already, then, it was clear how the world felt about Israel's victory over the immediate Arab world. We now consider it the Israel/Palestine problem. It seems to me that not much has changed for Israel in the subsequent 45+ years. Israel is still expected to make right Arab treatment of Palestineans, and Palestinean treatment of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria during the years since.

I think Hoffer's last sentence is precient. It may even be in progress as we argue at Mudcat.

Musket, Jim, Greg, Stilly, Stringsinger, Steve Shaw, et. al., I'm interested in your reaction to Mr. Hoffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

"There cannot be anything more morally reprehensible than the U.N., an body committed to the principle of human rights, aiding and abetting a terrorist organization in this way."

Hear, hear!.....Indict the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM

"The explosives, which were deliberately planted into the walls of the medical facility by terrorists, weighed around 150kg and were put into a clinic that was built to mask and perform potential acts of terror on the IDF.

In addition, the clinic was built over a number of terror attack tunnels, intended to be used by Hamas to attack Israel.

Obviously, UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency), which runs the clinic has yet to respond to the serious allegation that it knowingly allowed one of its facilities to be used from which terror attacks could be launched.

The U.N. has been totally discredited, as it is every time Israel is attacked by one of its neighbors, as it drafts condemnation after condemnation in Geneva for Israel's defensive war, while actively assisting the terrorists of Hamas on the ground.

There cannot be anything more morally reprehensible than the U.N., an body committed to the principle of human rights, aiding and abetting a terrorist organization in this way.

On Tuesday, Hamas and Islamic Jihad rocket arsenals were found in a UNRWA school for the third time this month. Having found the deadly rockets at the UNRWA school, it was reported that rather than destroying the rockets, UNRWA workers called Hamas to come to "remove" them.

Of course, UNWRA has neglected to comment on the deaths of the three Israeli soldiers and instead rushed to place blame on Israel for a rocket strike on one of their schools in Gaza which turned out to have been a Palestinian rocket which fell short of its target in Israel."

http://www.inquisitr.com/1384173/explosives-which-killed-three-israeli-soldiers-were-booby-trapped-inside-u-n-clinics-walls/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Hamas entered the operation with an estimated 15,000 active fighters, including men in supportive positions. Although other Israeli sources speak of hundreds of Hamas fighters killed, the IDF believes it has killed over 1,000 (which would underline Israeli claims that there is a far higher proportion of combatants than widely reported among the 1,360 total Gaza fatalities cited by Gazan health sources). The IDF is destroying or significantly harming Hamas's combat units in Beit Hanoun and Shejaiya in the northern Gaza Strip and Khan Younis in the south.

Read more: From tunnels to R-160s, a primer on Hamas and its deadly capabilities | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/from-tunnels-to-r-160s-a-primer-on-hamas-and-its-deadly-capabilities/#ixzz394GHfZGx
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:20 PM

Sorry, jimmy boy.

IF a hospital or school is used as a military site, such as to launch or store missiles, IT LOSES IT'S "PROTECTED" STATUS under the Geneva Conventions. THAT IS WHY such use BY HAMAS is a "Grievous Violation" in and of itself, in spite of YOUR approval.

The attacker then has to look at the potential impact of the attack- IF the site continues in use, is the harm that it causes greater than the harm to civilians at the site. It looks like EACH HAMAS ROCKET kills about 15-20 civilians and wounds about 200 when it hits GAZA- So a 15 rocket launcher endangers 225- 400 dead, 3000 to 4000 wounded EACH TIME IT LAUNCHES A SALVO of rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

IDF Soldiers Find Mosque with Weapons and Tunnel Openings

YouTube

Hamas has now made mosques, UNRWA facilities and hospitals legitimate targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM

UN complicity in war crimes:

"As those who pay attention know by now, the entire Strip and much of Southern Israel are riddled with a mammoth network of terror tunnels designed to murder and kidnap Israelis and store weapons while protecting the mega-rich Hamas leadership.

Israeli troops entering Gaza last week have so far uncovered 18 tunnels used by Hamas to send armed terrorists into Israel and built using an estimated 800,000 tons of concrete.

And how did it get there? That concrete was supposedly shipped into Gaza for "humanitarian purposes." Isn't that purportedly the province of the UN? What was there role in it exactly? How did this stunning amount of concrete slip in to be used for evil purposes? "


And not ONE shelter FOR THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

THAT should meet the approval of our three stooges ( Jimmy, Musket, and Greggie)...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 01:10 PM

""Over eighty kilograms of explosives were built into the UN-funded hospital's walls themselves, it was cleared for publication Thursday - revealing that the clinic itself was built to mask, and perform, potential acts of terror on the IDF"
By the way - your above quote (carefully unlinked), was lifted directly from Arutz Sheva.
"Arutz Sheva (Hebrew: ערוץ שבע‎) (Channel Seven) is an Israeli media network identifying with Neo-Zionism"
Which seems about the level of 'information'
As I type, an Israeli pilot is showing a television reporter the working of his aircraft, explaining that his plane if fully equipped with sophisticated cameras which enable him to be aware of exactly what he is dropping his bombs on.
To the reporter's accusation that he knows he is attacking hospitals and schools, he paused, then said, we offer them medical assistance!
Genocide just about sums it up, I'd say, wouldn't you?
Silly question, of course you wouldn't   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM

"why only the Israeli government has earned your scorn for its "genocide." "
I've made my views on Syria known, only to be met with suggestions that it was acceptable to sell Assad sniper rifles and riot control equipment at the time his snipers were shooting women on the streets of Homs and offering prizes of a cigarette to those who could kill a mother and baby with the same shot.
"Britain is hardly in the same league. You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon."
Keith on 'Homs Horror' thread.
"Guess what "Jim Lad" - Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it."
Terrytoon - same thread.
Not to mention selling the same murderous dictator chemicals that could be used to manufacture Chemical weapons
"Sodium fluoride is a harmless substance freely available everywhere.
They dose our water with it to protect our teeth
It is not a weapon, although you would not want a big sack to land on your toe."
Keith on 'Chemical Weapons in Syria' thread
Keep up, O Bearded Blaggard, otherwise you miss out on all the entertainment.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

"Over eighty kilograms of explosives were built into the UN-funded hospital's walls themselves, it was cleared for publication Thursday - revealing that the clinic itself was built to mask, and perform, potential acts of terror on the IDF.

Moreover, the clinic was built over tens of terror tunnels, according to the report. "



So HOW MANY of those "ISRAELI SHELLS" that Hamas has claimed hit schools and hospitals were really Hamas IEDs?

We KNOW that there are 20-30% of all the thousands of rockets launched at Israel by Hamas hitting Gaza, with their anti-personnel warheads. Now this: Hamas is FAR better at killing Palestinian civilians than Israel is.



"I met today with a Spanish journalist who just came back from Gaza. We talked about the situation there. He was very friendly. I asked him how comes we never see on television channels reporting from Gaza any Hamas people, no gunmen, no rocket launcher, no policemen.. We only see civilians on these reports, mostly women and children.
He answered me frankly: "It's very simple, we did see Hamas people there launching rockets, they were close to our hotel, but if ever we dared pointing our camera on them they would simply shoot at us and kill us."

Wooh, impressive. Then I asked him "would you mind saying that on camera? I can film you explaining this..."

For some reason I cannot really understand he refused and almost ran away. I guess my camera is as dangerous as Hamas threats…"



MORE war crimes you have approved of and supported Hamas in:

"And yet, during the course of the current operation, he said, he saw, for example, "a fan" of 15 rockets scream skyward from Beit Hanoun, in northern Gaza. Immediately, he could see, from his command position, where they were headed: Ashdod, Kiryat Gat, Tel Aviv. As he zoomed in on the point of fire he saw that the rockets were launched from an underground launcher "on the fence" of a boys and girls school."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

Musket,

Do you even bother to read posts before you attack people?

The POSTED FACTS, IF PROVEN TRUE, are evidence of a WAR CRIME.

ALL here know YOU support war crimes, as long as it is Israelis or Palestinian civilians being killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM

Indict The UNRWA for war crimes....

How many weeks since poobad last took his medication?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM

Indict UNRWA for war crimes for their complicity in aiding terrorism!

New details have emerged about the booby-trapped clinic explosion that killed three IDF Maglan unit soldiers in Gaza earlier this week - Sergeant First Class Matan Gottlieb, 21, from Rishon LeZion; Sergeant First Class Omar Chai, 21, from Savion; and Sergeant First Class Guy Algranati, 20, of Tel Aviv, hy"d.

Over eighty kilograms of explosives were built into the UN-funded hospital's walls themselves, it was cleared for publication Thursday - revealing that the clinic itself was built to mask, and perform, potential acts of terror on the IDF.

Moreover, the clinic was built over tens of terror tunnels, according to the report.

The UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) has yet to respond to the revelations, and has still not responded to the deaths of the Israeli soldiers Wednesday.

Booby-Trapped Explosives Built into Walls of UNRWA Clinic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM

Israeli apologist Mark Regev and like-minded souls are wringing their hands in despair and pleading that all they want is for Palestinians to break from Hamas and get behind more moderate leaders. At the same time, observers on all sides are noting that Hamas - close to a spent force after the deal with Fatah - has seen its support soar as a result of the Israeli offensive.

Yet still Netanyahu blunders on, creating a new family of enemies for every child that dies, pandering to populist opinion as voiced for instance by brainless Zionists, wrapped in their national flag, jubilantly chanting that there are no more schools in Gaza because there are no more Gaza children. His arrogance is founded in a belief that anyone who questions him can be labelled anti-semitic. As far as the UK is concerned, there is some basis for that belief. And in the US of course Israel is beyond criticism, thanks to the disproportionate leverage exercised by a monied Zionist lobby. But elsewhere around the world Israel is increasingly loathed, and indeed old-style anti-semitism is in evidence again - a direct consequence of Israel's disregard for innocent lives.

This present conflict has the potential ultimately to threaten the principles that underpin the UN. That would delight many in the US who have never liked having to conform to any sort of world consensus. But with the US already on course to lose top billing in the world order, such minded folk should be careful what they wish for.

"The Jews were the first victims of Hitler; the Palestinians were the second" - Peter Ustinov

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM

Paul Martin, a reporter for the Globe and Mail, described seeing Hamas gunmen retreating from Shejaiya in women's clothing, with one of them swaddling his rifle in a blanket like a baby.


And Hamas announces each one as a civilian if they are shot…


Arts. 43-44
Protocol I seeks to clarify the military status of members of guerrilla forces in the following manner: It includes provisions granting combatant and prisoner of war status to members
of dissident forces when under the command of a central authority. Such combatants cannot conceal their allegiance; they must be recognizable as combatants while preparing for or during an attack.

Art. 85
It is a war crime to use one of the protective emblems recognized by the Geneva Conventions to deceive the opposing forces or to use other forms of treachery.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

Arab Leaders, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel, Stay Silent

Battling Palestinian militants in Gaza two years ago, Israel found itself pressed from all sides by unfriendly Arab neighbors to end the fighting. Not this time.

Led by Egypt, a coalition of Arab states has effectively lined up with Israel in its fight against Hamas.

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM

A soldier from the Golani Brigade, who fought in the battle for Shejaiya, said it is already being talked about like the heroic fight for Mount Hermon in 1973. He said he had fought an enemy, taken fire from all over, even lost close friends and his direct commander, yet "we didn't see one person."

After a week in Gaza, he said, he still had not seen the face of the enemy.

Instead the battle swirls around them. Militants emerge from tunnels and open fire from the rear; donkeys trot toward the troops carrying a wagon full of explosives; suicide bombers make desperate sprints out of alleys; and an old man, apparently asking for water, tries to toss five grenades at a squad of troops, the commander of the Gaza Division, Brig. Gen. Michael Edelstein, said Wednesday.

He described a street patrolled by soldiers earlier this week, in a small town called Khirbet Khaza'iya, in which 19 of the 28 houses on the central street were booby-trapped. Many have tripwires in the gardens and on the doors, many with double activation devices, meaning they can be detonated from afar with, say, a cellphone. Thousands of homes, he said, have been detonated by militants across the Gaza Strip.

Paul Martin, a reporter for the Globe and Mail, described seeing Hamas gunmen retreating from Shejaiya in women's clothing, with one of them swaddling his rifle in a blanket like a baby.

"It's terrifying," said a combat soldier, who fought in Operation Cast Lead. "The [brigade] intelligence officers scare the crap out of you."

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

Jimmy,

YOU need to present some FACTS when you make accusations…


"Genocide: A coordinated and systematic effort to completely destroy a people or ethnic group. Whatever you think of Israeli actions in Gaza, they do not constitute genocide. And if you still maintain that they do, you must really be upset by the 180,000 Syrians killed by the Assad regime. And if not, you might ask yourself why only the Israeli government has earned your scorn for its "genocide." "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

Hamas hiding under the haricot beans, no doubt

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28571785
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

"That said, we hold the terrorist organization Hamas responsible for this"
Disguised in Israeli uniforms no doubt.
"stressed its recognition of Israel's right to defend itself.""
Did he say anything about Palestinian right to defend itself against Israeli genocidal attacks - No?
Politicians eh - you love'em or you hate 'em?
"1,360."
Gaza officials say at least 1,394 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed in the battered territory and nearly 7,000 wounded. Fifty-six Israeli soldiers have been killed in Gaza clashes and more than 400 wounded. Three civilians have been killed by Palestinian shelling in Israel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:57 AM

A senior Israel Air Force officer articulated the challenge from above. Pilots take to the sky with the instruction "to avoid to the greatest extent possible harming civilians," said Brig. Gen. Yaron Rosen, the IAF Air Support and Helicopter Air Division Commander.

And yet, during the course of the current operation, he said, he saw, for example, "a fan" of 15 rockets scream skyward from Beit Hanoun, in northern Gaza. Immediately, he could see, from his command position, where they were headed: Ashdod, Kiryat Gat, Tel Aviv. As he zoomed in on the point of fire he saw that the rockets were launched from an underground launcher "on the fence" of a boys and girls school.

Returning fire, destroying the rocket launchers, he said, would probably damage the school. Perhaps there were children inside. "What do I do? What do I do now?" he asked.

The air force, he said, had held its fire and spared the lives "of hundreds of Hamas operatives" and assets in order to avoid hurting innocent people.

"When are civilians killed?" he asked. "When there's no time. When there is fire directed at the citizens of Israel."

"A state," he added, "has to tend to its own citizens."

Rosen seemed genuinely awestruck by the extent of the military infrastructure embedded in civilian and humanitarian complexes in Gaza. He used the words "unfathomable" and "insane" on several occasions. He described Al Wafa Hospital, which Israel bombed after it had been finally emptied, as the central command post from which Hamas directed the bloody battle in Shejaiya. "It was a hospital held hostage by Hamas," he said.

How Gaza perverts the army's rules of engagement

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

"Ottawa (AFP) - Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Wednesday blamed Hamas for the heavy loss of civilian life caused by Israel's deadly strikes on the Gaza Strip.

At least 110 people were killed on Wednesday alone in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, as the Palestinian death toll from 23 days of unrelenting Israeli attacks soared to 1,360.

Israel says 56 of its soldiers have been killed.

"Obviously, no one likes to see the suffering and loss of life that has occurred," Harper said in televised remarks.

"That said, we hold the terrorist organization Hamas responsible for this. They have initiated and continue this conflict, and continue to seek the destruction of the state of Israel."

Canada's conservative government has long supported the Jewish state and stressed its recognition of Israel's right to defend itself."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:20 AM

"Daddy, he hit me first!"

"Well, he was on my side of the seat!"

"But I needed to see out that window!~"


.... and so it goes....

Daddy can at least say, "If you two don't behave, you will stay home next time!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

ABERDEEN
SCOTLAND
Intended support from Preston and Tower Hamlets has been quashed by Pro-Israeli opposition
The Galway town of Kinvara has announced a boycott of Israeli goods (first in Ireland and Irish musiciians, including Sharon Shannon are to hold s concert in support of the Palestinian people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

Headline statement frm Haaretz
"3 hours ago - Cautious estimates put the number of displaced persons as of Tuesday night at about 440,000 — roughly one-quarter of Gaza's population.
It's now Thursday, in case you hadn't noticed
Jim Carroll