BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

Is there not blame to go around on bith sides? in thatvregard, are tgere similaritiesvwith tge Georgia-=Russia conflict? Just wondering.

-Georgia started the conflict with Russia with an attack that was in violation of international law.

- Russia was responsible for a long history of provocation in the region and reacted disproportionately.

-Much of the Russian military action went far beyond the reasonable limits of defence,"

- Georgia's attack on the night of 7 August was an offensive, not a defensive, response to an invasion. It comes to the unequivocal conclusion that the assault breached international law.




Russia vs Georgia 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

"sing people to protect their weapons."
Sound a little but like a 'gun shanty'.
Israel's practice of deliberately using people as human shields has been raised as an issue on numerous occasions, which is a little different from firing weapons from your home territory - on one occasion, they used a schoolyard to mount an attack on a Palestinian area.
Israel's making legitimate any part of 'enemy territory' is standard practice.

AL-KHALIL (HEBRON): Israeli soldiers invade Palestinian elementary school

March, this year, from 'Christian Peacemaker' eyewitnesses:

"On 4 March, approximately thirty Israeli soldiers entered the Qitoun neighborhood from Checkpoints 29 & 209, provoking stone throwing from schoolboys. At one point, half the forces entered a Palestinian schoolyard and began using stun grenades and tear gas on local children and passersby.   Palestinian teachers prevented the soldiers from actually entering the school building. Soldiers shot canisters in front of the school building and detained three boys under the age of twelve. They later released the boys because they had no pictures of them throwing stones on their cameras.
CPTers have witnessed increasingly aggressive soldier behavior towards schoolchildren during morning school patrols at military checkpoints in the Old City of Hebron. Qitoun neighborhood is home to five schools, including two military checkpoints. On 6 March, CPTers had to carry kindergarteners out of range of the teargas that had incapacitated them.
These military interventions violate the Right to Education (Article 28) from the Convention on the Rights of the Child. CPT records the number of students, teachers, and detentions near these checkpoints as children attempt to make their way to school safely. CPT also documents physical threats, book bag searches, and tear gas use on children."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:39 PM

Israel is using weapons to protect her people.

Hamas is sing people to protect their weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM

the scrupulous methods [the Israeli Gov't] employ[s] to avoid civilian deaths

Jeez, Boo, with 120+ dead and 920+ wounded, doesn't sound like their scruples amount to much, eh?.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"the scrupulous methods they employ to avoid civilian deaths whereas"
Which as led to over 100 civilian deaths, including a large number of children.
The Israeli campaign across the West Bank in the wake of the kidnapping left at least eight Palestinians dead, about 130 wounded and around 560 detained.
This was before the bombardment got underway.
Now the death - toll has reached over 100, mainly civilians, and including children.
Jim Carroll   

An America (no doubt Anti-Semitic) Jew's view of the situation
US Backing Israeli War of Choice In Gaza
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by Mitchell Plitnick
The moral high ground is always a tenuous piece of property. It is difficult to obtain and is easily lost. It is seen, however, as crucial because most people, all over the world, cannot accommodate the notion that life is composed of shades of grey; they desperately need to see black and white, good guys and bad guys, heroes and villains, in every situation. Nowhere is this truer than in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
It has become even more important for Israel to fight this rhetorical battle because, while it can always count on mindless support from Washington and from the most radically nationalistic and zealous Zionists around the world, the current escalation and ugliness are going to be very difficult to defend to even mainstream pro-Israel liberals, let alone the rest of the world. The hasbara (propaganda) has been flowing at a rapid pace, even more than usual, as Israel struggles to maintain the treasured hold on the "moral high ground" that its own actions have increasingly undermined.

The Setup
Here is the very simple reality of what is happening now between Israel and Gaza: Israel willfully and intentionally seized upon a crime to demolish the unity government between Hamas and Gaza and, at the same time, significantly downgrade Hamas' administrative, political, and military capabilities.
Israel, of course, could not have foreseen the kidnapping and murder of three youths on the West Bank, but once it happened, the Netanyahu government went into high gear to press its advantage. Recognizing that it needed to whip the Israeli public into a frenzy, the government put a gag order on the case to avoid revealing that it knew almost right away that the young men were dead. Under the cover of what seemed to be a kidnapping, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was able to attack Hamas in both the West Bank and Gaza, launching a massive military operation throughout the former and increasing its bombing raids in the latter.
Hamas, for its part, didn't react wisely, but the politics of its situation left its leadership little choice. They had advocated kidnappings too often in the past, and they delayed stating they were not behind this incident. They finally did, and when Israel named the two suspects, it gave weight to Hamas' denial, as the alleged murderers were part of a powerful Hebron clan that, as J.J. Goldberg put it, "…had a history of acting without the [Hamas] leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests."
But while it is rather clear at this point that the Hamas leadership had nothing to do with the three boys' murders, it did support the act, which played well into Netanyahu's hands. All over Israel and all over social media, calls for revenge popped up, along with cries of "Death to the Arabs," and horrifying, indeed genocidal, statements by Israeli politicians. Ayelet Shaked of the Jewish Home Party compared Palestinian children to snakes, called for a war on the entire Palestinian people, and said "They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads." It's difficult for even the most brazen apologist to see those words as anything other than an incitement to attack civilians without restraint.
Such words bore their fruit when a Palestinian youth of 16 years, Muhammed Abu Khdeir, was burned alive. And here, of course, is where the Israeli rhetoric ratcheted up another notch. Setting out to capture the criminals was an imperative for the Netanyahu government because it made the case that "we prosecute such murderers, while our enemy celebrates them," a refrain that was uttered continuously in various forms.
"That's the difference between us and our neighbors," Netanyahu said. "They consider murderers to be heroes. They name public squares after them. We don't. We condemn them and we put them on trial and we'll put them in prison."
Not only is that rhetoric dehumanizing, it is also false. For example, the town of Kochav Yair in central Israel is named after the leader of the notorious LEHI, or "Stern Gang," Avraham Stern, a terrorist who was summarily executed by the British. LEHI, along with the Irgun Z'Vai Leumi (or Irgun for short) was responsible for the massacre of the Palestinian Deir Yassin village in 1948, though this was after Stern's death. The same group also boasted among its members about future Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who was behind, among other things, the 1944 assassination of Lord Moyne, British Minister for Middle East Affairs, while the Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the first Israeli prime minister from an opposition party. Many streets are named after them.
If that's not enough, in the settlement of Kiryat Arba one can find the Meir Kahane Memorial Park, dedicated to the late "rabbi" who called for violence against Arabs in Israel (and whose Jewish Defense League often organized violence against African-Americans in the US). And, of course, right across from that park is the tomb of Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinians in 1994. That grave has been turned into a pilgrimage site for radical Jews.
So, Israelis are quite capable of celebrating murderers as well. But it's important for Netanyahu to conceal this fact for now. During the staged operation to find the "kidnapped" youths, Israel arrested hundreds of Palestinians, many, but not all associated with Hamas. They virtually closed down Hebron and the surrounding area, and entered many Palestinian cities throughout the West Bank, provoking frequent clashes with residents. Several Palestinians were killed and many were injured.
Hamas eventually took responsibility for some rockets that had been fired at Israel, and the situation continued to deteriorate. Eventually, Israel launched the current operation, which was dubbed "Solid Cliff" in Hebrew; their marketing people felt that "Protective Edge" sounded better in English.
Since then, over 100 Palestinians have been killed, many of them civilians and minors. Houses have been targeted and destroyed, hundreds of people injured. United Nations human rights officials have warned that Israel may be committing war crimes by targeting private homes while the United States performs its usual task of preventing the Security Council from issuing critical statements about Israeli actions.
While the US works that task, both its president and its ambassador to Israel are reassuring Israel with total support. In a stunning example of double talk, President Barack Obama offered to broker a cease-fire, but Netanyahu bluntly stated he doesn't want one. So, naturally US Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro responded by saying the US would back a ground invasion of Gaza.

War of Choice
Israeli military leaders, whose role in deciding defense strategy has become increasingly, if quietly, marginalized under Netanyahu, are not enthusiastic about the current Israeli onslaught. They understand that Hamas is not going to be defeated militarily and that this action is further degrading Israel's standing in the world. They also understand that the impetus for this action was not security, but politics.
Netanyahu is meanwhile not striking a blow for security, or even revenge. The purpose of all this, from the deception of the Israeli people and the world about the fate of the three murdered youths, the mass arrests and provocative behavior during the staged "search" for the boys, and the following attacks on Gaza were directed not at Palestinian terrorists, but at Palestinian political leaders. While it's true that Netanyahu envisions no exit strategy (he never does) for this operation, he does have objectives; three of them, in fact.
The first is obvious: to deliver a blow to Hamas. He is well aware that the group is already struggling financially, even more than usual, and these attacks are diverting resources toward fighting Israel and creating greater needs among Gazans.
The second is to humiliate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Netanyahu is absolutely furious that Abbas acted without Israel's permission by joining international treaties and forming a unity government — two things which, actually, are not only Palestine's right, but Abbas' duty. Netanyahu is showing Palestinians how ineffective Abbas is: the PA president can do nothing but sit on the sidelines. This is a stupid thing for Netanyahu to do, of course, because it undermines the man who has been keeping the West Bank quiet for Israel, but when has that ever stopped him?
Finally, and most importantly, the goal that probably spurred all of this was Netanyahu's desperation to dismember the Palestinian unity government. Bibi knows that while a unity government might not make progress in securing Palestinian rights, the split between Gaza and the West Bank makes it utterly impossible for there to be any progress toward ending Israel's 47-year old occupation. From the day the unity agreement was signed, Netanyahu has been enraged about it and obsessed with undoing it. He hopes that the current violence will either increase international pressure on Abbas to dissolve his partnership with Hamas or that Hamas will grow so angry at Abbas that it will walk away.
Given that the West Bank has remained largely quiet, thanks entirely to Abbas' security forces clamping down on any protests, let alone any action against Israel, it is entirely possible that Hamas will indeed bolt from the unity arrangement. This is rather remarkable because Netanyahu continues to demonize Abbas publicly and no one wants to compliment him on maintaining order because he is doing so at the expense of enraging his own people. Most Palestinians in the West Bank see their relatives being slaughtered in Gaza while their own president not only sits by helplessly but prevents his people from even protesting.
That is Netanyahu's agenda, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with keeping Israelis safe and secure. Indeed, as has always been the case, far more Israelis are threatened and injured when Israel attacks than at other times.
To even maintain this thin façade, Israel must continue to make the false case that it has the moral high ground. While Hamas could be easily assailed because they only target Israeli civilians, Netanyahu has still found a way to be even more criminal, Machiavellian and ruthless, and ultimately the most culpable villain here by far.
Make no mistake about what the United States is backing here. This is as pure a war of choice as any. Netanyahu has set up this fight, and has waged it. And, as always, it is the people of Gaza who pay the heaviest price. But Israelis too will bear the cost of this ruthless escapade in the long run. And the United States can only look at itself in shame as it supports this murderous and reckless endeavor.

About the Author
Mitchell Plitnick is the former Director of the US Office of B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories and was previously the Director of Education and Policy for Jewish Voice for Peace. He is a widely published and respected policy analyst. Born in New York City, raised an Orthodox Jew and educated in Yeshiva, Mitchell grew up in an extremist environment that passionately supported the radical Israeli settler movement. Plitnick regularly speaks all over the country on current issues. His writing has appeared in the Jordan Times, Israel Insider, UN Observer, Middle East Report, Global Dialogue, San Francisco Chronicle, Die Blaetter Fuer Deutsche Und Internationale Politik, Outlook, and in a regular column for a time in Tikkun Magazine. He has been interviewed by various outlets including PBS News Hour, the O'Reilly Factor and CNBC Asia. Plitnick graduated with honors from UC Berkeley in Middle Eastern Studies and wrote his thesis on Israeli and Jewish historiography.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:54 AM

"Or, alternatively does Hamas have more compassion for Israelis than the Israelis have for them?"

The Israelis have more compassion for the civilians of Gaza that does Hamas as demonstrated by the scrupulous methods they employ to avoid civilian deaths whereas Hamas urges it's citizens to act as human shields so that they can exploit their deaths for propaganda purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestinen
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

Curious (as to motives):

Is the reason there are no recent Israeli deaths from Hamas rocket fire that Hamas is not trying to kill Israelis, that they are merely trying to provoke the Israelis to fire surperiour rocketfire back (considering the congestion, most likely hitting some civilians with some rockets)?

If Hamas had better, and more precise, rockets would they not use them as the Israelis are now?

Or, alternatively does Hamas have more compassion for Israelis than the Israelis have for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM

spare civilian populations as it strikes terror-related targets in the Gaza Strip

Window dressing.

Fact is that THERE IS NO WAY to "spare civilian populations" with the course Israel is pursuing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Aerial footage released by the IDF overnight Friday showcased the difficulties the Israeli military encounters in trying to spare civilian populations as it strikes terror-related targets in the Gaza Strip, as well as the efforts it makes to avoid harming non-combatants.

WATCH: IDF footage reveals efforts to spare civilians in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

"Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire"

Of all the horrid, hideous notes of woe,
Sadder than owl-songs or the midnight blast;
    Is that portentous phrase,

          "I told you so."

    Byron - Don Juan (canto XIV, st. 50)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:47 AM

" many Jews consider him to be an antisemite"
Einstein was warning of the possibility of this happening at the birth of the Israeli State, maybe he should have stuck to mathematical physics.
Einstein warns of Zionist Fascism in Israel
When you people start denying the fact that many Jews are opposed to what is happening in Israel today, yur case for "Antisemitism" disappears.
"Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire"
To the U~Israelis, "ceasefire" means "surrender on or terms - put another way, "come out with your hands up Tommy, for you, the war is over.
Israels bullying militarism has degraded the Jewish people, especially when it is described as "Jewish".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) Saturday, July 12, 2014— Israeli airstrikes in Gaza hit a mosque and a center for the disabled where two women were killed Saturday, raising the Palestinian death toll from the offensive to more than 120.

While there have been no fatalities in Israel from the continued rocket fire, Gaza Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Kidra said overnight Israeli strikes raised the death toll there to over 120, with more than 920 wounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM

Egypt and another Arab country, most likely Qatar, have put together an initial draft of a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, and presented it to both parties Saturday.

Hamas has so far refused to discuss the terms of the cease-fire, while Israel has expressed to the authors its willingness to meet to discuss the details of the deal.

The cease-fire draft is divided into two sections: security and socioeconomic.

The security aspect includes among other items the demands by Hamas for the release of 56 prisoners who were freed as part of the 2011 Shalit swap deal, but rearrested by Israel during the IDF operation followed the abduction and murder of three Israeli teens in the West Bank last month. They are also demanding the release of the senior Hamas members in the West Bank who were also detained during the same operation, known as Brother's Keeper.

The socioeconomic aspect includes principles reached after the end of Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, including the expansion of the fishing area off the coast of Gaza, which was recently reduced by the IDF, a reduction in the size of Israel's security perimeter on its border with Gaza, the admittance of building materials into Gaza and the easing of the blockade on the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt.

Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire. The organization is still looking for the tangible victory that has so far eluded it, such as heavy damage during a rocket strike on central Israel. It appears that Hamas is even ready for an IDF ground incursion, which would cost it dear, so long as it can present an image of victory to the Palestinian public by the end of the fighting. At the close of Pillar of Defense, this came in the form of a rocket strike on an apartment building in Rishon Lezion.

Israel, for its part, has told those behind the draft that there is a basis for discussion, in particular the socioeconomic sections.

Elior Levy
Published: 07.12.14, 12:19 / Israel News

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

Chomsky should stick to linguistics where he has some credibility.

And yes, many Jews consider him to be an antisemite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:26 AM

A past statement from that well-known Anti Semite, Noam Chomsky ums up Israel's position perfectly
Jim Carroll

"The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace.
The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.
When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.
— Noam Chomsky"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:20 AM

"The vast, vast majority of Israelis support the policies of the current Israeli government"
The vast majority of the German people supported the Nazi - so what?
"Name ONE Palestinian killed who was not"
Don't be so ****** stupid
You name one single person who was killed who was armed and firing rockets
This is an indiscriminate bombardment of civilian areas
Have't looked this morning, but the death toll had topped 100, the overwhelming majority of those were announced as being civilians and a large percentage of those were children.
Are you really fanatically supportive of Israel to suggest that they have now developed weaponry that only takes out fighters.
A far as the Israelis are concerned 'legitimate' means 'Palestinian' - tis, as with past military incursions, is indiscriminate state murder a combination of suppressing resistance and revenge for the killing of the the Israeli boys.
The indiscriminate killing had started long before the rocket attacks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:12 PM

The vast, vast majority of Israelis support the policies of the current Israeli government

Got any figures or evidence to back up your claim? Percentages, perhaps?

And you still didn't address that by your definitions all of the thousands upon thousands of Jewish Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government are Anti-Semites in need of "absolution" as well.

Not to mention the thousands of Jews WORLDWIDE who oppose the the policies of the current Israeli government, who by your definitions are Anti-Semites in need of "absolution" as well.

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:59 PM

The vast, vast majority of Israelis support the policies of the current Israeli government. But let's just ignore that inconvenient little detail because your contention only goes to validate the democracy that is Israel, in contrast to it's neighbours, where opposing the policies of their governments is awarded with imprisonment (if the dissenters are lucky).

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:25 PM

As if this gives you some sort of absolution.

Ah, but Boo- I'm not the who NEEDS absolution.

By your definitions all of the thousands upon thousands of Jewish Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government are Anti-Semites in need of "absolution" as well.

Rubbish.

Just the same tired old BooBad Anti-Semitic Two Step. Boring AND idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:38 PM

"I'm not sure what my Jewish grandmother (G_d rest her soul) would make of your bullshit accusation of "Jew hater"."

As if this gives you some sort of absolution.......fail!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:08 PM

But I think you get my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:54 PM

"Ah, the same tired old BooBad Anti-Semitic Two Step. Boring AND idiotic."

As the old bard said:
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

And
"If the shoe fits wear it"

And
If it walks like a duck......etc."

I can give you more if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:49 PM

Unfortunately for the BDSers Israel's economy is thriving

Give it time, Boo - the major U.S. Christian denominations recently pulled out ( see BDS thread, above) and more people & organizations are doing so by the day if not the hour. Just give it time. I'm sure the latest round of Israeli atrocities will provide some additional impetus.

you and the other Mudcat Jew haters

Ah, the same tired old BooBad Anti-Semitic Two Step. Boring AND idiotic.

I'm not sure what my Jewish grandmother (G_d rest her soul) would make of your bullshit accusation of "Jew hater".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM

Academic boycott targets students and professors. Divestment targets the economy which affects the entire population. I don't think anyone except you and the other Mudcat Jew haters would deny that BDS constitutes collective punishment. Unfortunately for the BDSers Israel's economy is thriving, it has, in fact, exceeded the OECD average in most economic indices since it's inception in 2005. Some of Israel's burgeoning trade is with Muslim countries. Some BDS.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM

Oh, you mean like BDS right?

"Collective Punishment", Boo?

That your new definition of economic sanctions intended to influence Israeli government policy?? Kinda like was done with Souith Africa and other apartheid regimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

Well, since you didn't answer it last time, Beardie, let me pose the question again:

Per BB: YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews

Where exactly did I say that? Just more of the usual Bearded Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:54 PM

Of course the IDF should target Hamas' military facilities but, oh dear, they are terrorists and terrorists don't employ military facilities instead they site their rocket launchers and mortars among the civilian population in order to incur civilian casualties so that the righteous Jew haters of the world can then heap their opprobrium on those malevolent Jews who indiscriminately target innocent women and children. That this cruel and cynical tactic is bought into by those who are only too eager to spew their hatred of Jews is amply in evidence here at the Mudcat Cafe.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM

""Collective punishment" is cruel, inhuman and against any treaty or protocol in Geneva or elsewhere."

Oh, you mean like BDS right?
Or does that not count because it's directed against Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM

Rocks have no power against the weaponry and bombs employed by Israel which are killing and maiming innocent women and children.

No one wants women, children and innocent men killed either Israeli or Palestinian.
It's this kind of warmongering that makes this discussion a travesty.

There have been few reports of Israeli innocent women, children or men being wounded or killed even by Hamas rocket fire which is of course futile. The casualty list of Palestinians far exceeds that of those of Israelis and that is certified by Amnesty International as well as other international observers.

The idea of punitive "collective punishment" if applied to Zionists would cause an international furor. Palestine never dropped bombs on Israel in spite of the Meir Kahanes and the Jewish Defense League fanatics. This is a purely religious war pitting Zionists against Islamists.
Treaties have been violated on both sides but the burden of proof for denying the oppression the Palestinian people lies heavily on the Israeli side.i

I deplore the bloodshed instigated by either side but the Palestinian people remain landlocked, oppressed and have no shelter available to them from the bombardment of Gaza.

Still, the finger pointing goes on and the Settlements multiply displacing Palestinian land and homes.

Gaza remains an open air prison. The Hamas militants are fighting a losing battle. The Israeli militants are undoubtably stronger in weaponry and in the unrelenting support of the US which supplies these weapons to Israel.

The idea of parity between the two countries is ludicrous.

Right now the only hope for Israel or Palestine to break the shackles of militocracy are organizations like BDS which will force the two sides to a peace table regardless of the recalcitrance of Israel or the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:32 PM

But in an effort to prevent civilian casualties, the Israeli military makes warning phone calls to militants' homes, telling them to get out immediately because the building is going to be bombed. Warning leaflets are also dropped from the air before specific areas are attacked.





YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews

Where exactly did I say that? Just more of the usual Bearded Bullshit.



No, Greggie, it is the truth. The blood is on YOUR hands. YOU are helping Hamas kill Palestinians by your support of their illegal rocket bombardments.

You state that Israelis are not allowed to defend themselves, and that Hamas is "defending" themselves by their (prohibited by the Geneva Conventions) mass bombardment of civilian areas of Israel.


You complain about an Israeli targeted attack on an Hamas military site, yet cheer on the Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians. YOU are the one who has decided that Jews are not human beings.

Israel has demonstrated that it cares MORE for Palestinian lives than Hamas, OR YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews

Where exactly did I say that? Just more of the usual Bearded Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

It takes someone with a sick and twisted mind and an obsessive hatred of humanity to call self-defense by Jews terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:20 PM

Wrong, as usual GregF.

The war crimes are being done by Hamas.

The deaths of the Palestinians that THEY use as human shields are on their hands.


You have far more Palestinian blood on your hands than I do.


YOU are saying that it is OK to kill civilians as long as they are Jews, but to shot back at someone who is trying to kill you is wrong IF you are a Jew.



You are almost as stupid as Jim, but obviously a lot more of an Anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:06 PM

... to these deadly rock attacks

Damn right, BB - in a contest between automatic weapons and rocks, the rocks will win every time.

Of course those rock throwers are just Palestinians, so we can't expect YOU to think they are human beings.

The BLOOD of those civilians, both Israeli AND PALESTINIAN, is on YOUR hands due to your support of the Israeli Government.

YOU are saying that Palestinians cannot defend themselves LEGALLY while you keep silent on the WAR CRIMES being committed by your friends in Israel.

It takes someone with a sick and twisted mind and an obsessive hatred of Palestinians to call self-defense terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM

Despite Palestinian rock throwers being seen by the international community as 'unarmed civilians,' rocks are deadly weapons meant for one purpose: To injure, maim and kill. Over the years there have been countless incidents of Palestinian rock throwing against Jews resulting in the injury and deaths of many innocent Israeli adults and children.

Instead of rebuking such heinous acts from its citizens, Palestinian authorities have reward violence against Israel and Jews by naming schools, hospitals, and streets after the murderers. A recent Palestinian opinion poll, from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy shows that an overwhelming majority of Palestinians opposes any goal other than the elimination the State of Israel.

Additionally, Israel finds itself in a sticky wicket because they are typically seen as the aggressor when responding to these deadly rock attacks. Media officials and photographers do nothing as Palestinian kids and teens pelt Jews with rocks. International journalists actually stand with the Palestinians and videotape them as they pelt cars with Israeli license plates. Cars like the one carrying Adele Biton, a 3 year-old who suffered traumatic brain injury after a rock flew through the cars windshield and struck her on the head, causing the car to crash into the back of a truck.

When Israeli soldiers detain the Palestinian perpetrators of these crimes – some of whom are young children — journalists will photograph the detaining and scream at the Israelis, saying they are innocent children. This type of media manipulation is all too common with journalists who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and looking to influence public opinion. This journalist bias is so common it's referred to as "Pallywood."



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/10/sticks-and-stones-do-break-my-bones/#ixzz37AjsYAdT

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM

There are plenty of Palestinians who were victimized that were not firing on Israelis. Firing with what? Rocks and bottles? Ridiculous point.

Plenty of Israelis who consider themselves "victims" who have a policy of "collective punishment". Genocide in Gaza will not solve the problem.

Hamas is a reaction to Israel's oppression. "Collective punishment" is cruel, inhuman and against any treaty or protocol in Geneva or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

JERUSALEM (AP) — Gaza health officials said Friday that strikes overnight killed a total of eight people, raising the death toll to at least 98. A later strike pushed the tally over 100 to go along with some 670 wounded, officials said.

Israeli leaders are mulling whether to launch a ground assault in Gaza.
During a ground incursion in early 2009, hundreds of civilians were killed and both sides drew war crimes accusations in a United Nations report.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

Israel's military "uses its weapons to defend its civilians. Hamas uses its civilians to defend its weapons,"

So, Jim:

Name ONE Palestinian killed who was not
1. Firing on or attacking (Israeli ) forces
2. Being used as a human shield by Hamas
3. In an area that was a legitimate military target- i.e., near a launcher that Hamas had set up.
4. In the quarters or operations center of an (Hamas) military leader



Now, name ONE Israeli victim of Hamas in the last two years who was ANY of :

1. Firing on or attacking (Palestinian ) forces
2. Being used as a human shield by Hamas
3. In an area that was a legitimate military target- i.e., near a launcher that Hamas had set up.
4. In the quarters or operations center of an (Israeli) military leader


So Israel follows the Geneva conventions, and Hamas does not. Hamas goes out of it's way to violate those conventions, in order to maximize PALESTINIAN civilian casualties, AND YOU SUPPORT THAT.

If Israel was TRYING to kill Palestinians, they would just carpet bomb the entire Gaza strip- Like the Allies did to Germany.

If you cannot see that Israel is trying to reduce the Palestinian civilian casualties, and that Hamas is trying to increase them, you are not only blind and bigoted, you are an incredible fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:53 AM

"Lerner said the military was doing its utmost to prevent civilian casualties"
Sure he did !!
The Palsinian death count has reached over 100, overwhelmingly civilians and a large percentage of these children.
This isn't counting those who were killed and injured immediately following the kidnapping of the three boys.
It seems the Israelis are using this as an opportunity not to be missed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:46 AM

Hamas spokesman calls on its people to act as human shields:

Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri

Meanwhile you can sure that he and his fellow Hamas officials are safely ensconced and enjoying the luxuries gleaned from the world's and Israel's largesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:15 AM

"Lerner said the military was doing its utmost to prevent civilian casualties, calling inhabitants ahead of time to warn of imminent attacks. He said Israeli forces also fire "non-explosive munitions" at roofs as a warning and looks for people to leave before destroying a structure.

Lerner blamed Hamas for the death of innocent bystanders by firing from heavily populated areas. Israel's military "uses its weapons to defend its civilians. Hamas uses its civilians to defend its weapons," he said."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM

"Area bombardment of civilian areas by anti-personnet weapons-"

The rockets launched by Hamas that you approve of ARE shown on TV, hitting Israel, or being intercepted.

You really are a shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM

"AIMING at the launch site of an (illegal) rocket and trying to destroy the launcher IS SELF DEFENSE-More or less what the Nazis said when they mudered 1 in ten of the citizens of Lidice.
"You have stated you approval of the Hamas rockets,"
Where?
All I have ever said is they are small potatoes compared to Israeli atrocities - I don't approve of them and never have
Try to produce a coupe of words that aren't a pathetically obvios lie - it can be very cathartic.
"Area bombardment of civilian areas by anti-personnet weapons-"
If that is the case - not what has just been shown on our television - it is a first for Israel, who have regarded hospitals and schools fair game for their bombe, particularly their chemicals
As for refugees and Bedouins - a national blood-sport.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:53 PM

"Just watching the Palestinian casualties being carried on stretchers"


Who were killed BY HAMAS- They bear the legal responsibility according to the Geneva Conventions, which PROHIBIT

1. Area bombardment of civilian areas by anti-personnet weapons- BEING DONE ONLY BY HAMAS.
2. Siting of launch areas and military operations in civilian areas such as homes, apartments, schools, and hospitals -BEING DONE ONLY BY HAMAS.
3. Use of Human shields to purposely increase civilian casualties- DONE ONLY BY HAMAS.


And YOU criticize Israel, and keep silent about Hamas.- That makes you both bigot and an advocate of the murder of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:42 PM

Jim,

You have stated you approval of the Hamas rockets, and declared that Israel does not have the right to attack those launchers (i.e., self-defense).

Look back at your own posts- Nothing but advocating terrorism and murder by YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

anyone concerned about the deliberate targeting of civilians in this conflict should first look at Hamas. The rocket fire from Gaza into Israel began well before the Israeli assault on Gaza. Initially, the rockets were Islamic Jihad's idea. But in the last few days, Hamas has joined in with gusto, claiming credit for missiles fired at several Israeli cities, including Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Haifa.

Apologists for Hamas argue that its weapons are less precise than Israel's, so collateral damage is inevitable. That won't wash. Hamas now has longer-range missiles, known as M-302s or R-160s, that are more precise than its clumsy old Grad rockets. It has been firing the new missiles at cities anyway. Hamas has also flatly rejected the principle of sparing civilians. According to a Hamas spokesman, "All Israelis have now become legitimate targets."

I've criticized Israel for demolishing the West Bank homes of suspected Arab terrorists. That policy is indefensible. But in the Gaza war, it's clear that Israel has gone to great lengths to minimize civilian deaths. The same can't be said of Hamas.

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM

The worst civilian death toll—seven, at the latest count—occurred in a strike on the Khan Yunis home of a terrorist commander. Hamas calls it a "massacre against women and children." But residents say the family got both a warning call and a knock on the roof. An Israeli security official says Israeli forces didn't fire their missile until the family had left the house. The official didn't understand why some members of the family, and apparently their neighbors, went back inside. The residents say they were trying to "form a human shield."

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

According to many critics, Israel is slaughtering civilians in Gaza. It's "purposefully wiping out entire families," says an Arab member of Israel's parliament. It's committing "genocide—the murder of entire families," says Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority. Iran says Israel has committed "massacres against the defenseless Palestinians."

The charges are false. By the standards of war, Israel's efforts to spare civilians have been exemplary.

Israel didn't choose this fight. Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the terrorist organizations that dominate Gaza, claim that Israel provoked the conflict by arresting Hamas members in the
West Bank. But arrests in one territory don't justify aerial bombardment from another. Israel didn't hit Gaza until terrorists had fired more than 150 rockets into Israel and had rejected a cease-fire.

Slate

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:31 PM

Jim,

I note you have NEVER asked that Hamas stop firing at civilians.


Of course, lots of those civilians are just Jews, so we can't expect YOU to think they are human beings.



"Military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said Israel struck more than 320 Hamas targets overnight, focusing on underground tunnel networks and rocket launching sites. In all, the military has struck 750 sites since the offensive began on Tuesday.

Israel has mobilized 20,000 reservists for a possible ground operation into Gaza, but for the time remains focused on maximizing its air campaign, Lerner said. A ground invasion could lead to heavier civilian casualties on the Palestinian side and put Israeli ground forces in danger.

Neither side is showing any sign of halting their heaviest fighting since an eight-day battle in late 2012. Israel says that Hamas must cease rocket fire from Gaza for Israel to consider a truce. Militants have fired hundreds of rockets, striking across the length of Israel and disrupting life across the country."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

The IDF is giving advance warning of it's strikes. Hamas is telling the people to stay put and to bring their children to act as shields. Those who blame Israel for civilian deaths are suffering from pathological hatred.