BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:57 AM

It was by far the most bloodthirsty post in this whole debate.
In fact, the only post that could be so described.
Uncalled for Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 03:30 AM

"I guess Mr. Jim's sarcasm didn't go over well."
Seems like it hit where it was aimed at though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:42 PM

I guess Mr. Jim's sarcasm didn't go over well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:36 PM

Journalists receive death threats after reporting Hamas uses human shields

"This is exactly the kind of one-sided propaganda that Hamas wants the international world to see," The Right Scoop said. Now we learn -- to no one's surprise -- that anyone trying to tell the truth about the situation on the ground faces death threats.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:47 PM

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM

serves them right!

What a sick and shocking statement.
Neither Palestinians nor Israelis deserve their violent deaths.

What we do here is squabble over who is to blame, but let us not joke about the human catastrophe that no-one knows how to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 01:18 PM

Over 1000 Palestinians, 30 Israelis dead - that'll teach the cheeky bastards not respect the big boys, eh - serves them right!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM

The irony is beyond belief. German and Iranian far-leftists marching in full solidarity with Israel at the "No al-Quds Day" rally, including Kazem Moussavi of the Iranian Green Party, in complete opposition to the Ayatollah fascists marching at the al-Quds day rally. Kudos to those Iranian and German leftists!

QUOTE: Kazem Moussavi, the spokesperson of the Iranian Green Party in Germany and a vocal critic of the Iranian regime, who spoke in support of Israel at the counter demonstration, organized by the leftist No Al-Quds Day group said, "the thousand marching today [in the Al-Quds Day march] are not representative of the millions of Muslims around the world. The Iranian freedom movement stands against radical Islamic movements. We stand with the Israelis and against Hamas"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:16 AM

Are you so stupid or dishonest to count that as support - rhetorical question - both, of course.
You certainly seem to have missed the ironic, contradictory stupidity of your two statements
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

ISRAIL'S INSIDER CRITICS
Avner Gvaryahu is a former Israeli soldier who has become a campaigner against his country's policies. In the city of Hebron, he demonstrates what he regards as the folly of Israel's military occupation of the West Bank

Standing in the middle of Shuhada Street, a thoroughfare that runs through Hebron's old city, Avner Gvaryahu produces a photograph of the area, taken in 1999, and holds aloft to it drive home his point. The scene in the picture is a bustling market, with large crowds moving among fruit and vegetable stalls and cars inching their way through the gaps.
Today the same street is deserted and tense. The shops are all closed, hardly anyone is out and a fortified military watchtower overlooks us. "That used to be the meat market," he says, pointing to a shuttered build¬ing. "And this street used to be full of stalls."
Hebron is the only Palestinian city in the West Bank with a Jewish settlement at its centre. Shuhada Street is the flashpoint, one of the most bitterly contested pieces of urban space in a part of the world where land disputes are invested with existential significance.
Since 2000, Shuhada Street-the epicentre of a community of Israelis that has grown steadily since the first settlers squat¬ted in a house here in 1979 - has been entirely closed to Palestinians.
The map of the city has three types of col¬our-coded roads where the army restricts access in order, it says, to protect a few hundred settlers. Purple means no Palestinian vehicles allowed, yellow means Palestinians cannot drive or open shops, and red marks what the Israeli military calls "a sterilised road", meaning no Palestinians are allowed at all.
Shuhada is red. Yet several Palestinians live on the street; one elderly woman, Mal-kha Kapisha, must climb on to her roof when she wants to leave her home. Graffiti on the street declares: "There is no Palestine. There never will be."
Gvaryahu has brought me here to demonstrate what he regards as the folly of Israel's military occupation of the West Bank. The 29-year-old knows the area well. As a paratrooper in the Israeli army he walked these streets in uniform, helping to enforce the occupation. In recent years he has returned as a critic and campaigner.
"I think what really changed my perspective was just meeting this reality," he says. The first time he was ever in a Palestinian house, Gvaryahu recalls, was when he did his first "straw widow" - army jargon for entering a home to commandeer it as a look¬out post for an operation.
"You go into the house in the middle of the night," he explains. "Whether you break down the door or knock on the door depends on the officer. You get into the house, get an entire family and lock them in a room. If they want to use the bathroom, they need permission from us. If they want to use the kitchen, they need permission from us. It's all under our control.
"This was my first interaction with Palestinians. This is the balance of power."
Destined for the military
Born into a religious-nationalist community in the town of Rehovot, near Tel Aviv, Gvaryahu was always destined for the army. His parents were relatively liberal, politically left of centre, but his father had been a paratrooper, his grandmother had fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and when he joined, in 2004, he went straight into a special-operations unit. "I was very enthusiastic," he says. "I felt it was my time, my time to give back, do the right thing. I felt I was going in with my eyes open."
He struggles to identify a turning point, but slowly his questioning became more insistent. He saw Palestinians suffer thefts and humiliation (and, on one occasion, when a woman with a broom was mistaken for a man with a gun, a gunshot wound) at the hands of his fellow soldiers. "All those incidents happened around me, but I man-aged to rationalise them."
Then, a month before he was to be discharged, after three years in the military, Gvaryahu took a tour of occupied areas with Breaking the Silence, an organisation of veterans who have served in the Israeli military and seek to show Israel society the everyday reality of the occupation of Palestinian territory. He would later sign up. "I felt in many cases I was doing more harm than good," he says.
Nestled in the Judaean Mountains south of Jerusalem, Hebron is the largest city in the West Bank and a place venerated by Muslims, Jews and Christians. It is considered the second-holiest city in Judaism, af¬ter Jerusalem, and since the Six Day War, in 1967, the Israeli settler movement, with the support of its government and military, has been encroaching farther into the city.
The international community considers the settlements, like all of those in occupied territory, to be illegal, but Israel has persist¬ed in expanding them. And as Israelis have moved in - there are now almost 10 0 Jewish families in Hebron - Palestinians have been moving out. More than 1,000 Palestinian housing units, about 42 per cent of the apartments in central Hebron, have been abandoned by their occupants.
Israeli policy towards Palestinians near the settlements is all about separation, Gvaryahu argues. Their movements are tightly circumscribed, their shops and roads are closed. They have different legal regimes: a Palestinian throwing a rock at a car can be held for two days; an Israeli doing the same thing could be held for no more than l2 hours.
He believes the unspoken purpose is to make it so difficult for Palestinians to live that they decide to move on and make way for more Israelis.
The small number of Palestinians who live in the old city have built cages around their doors and windows to protect them¬selves against stone-throwing settlers. "In order to start ending this conflict we have to start with ending the occupation, giving Palestinians back their dignity, helping with education and jobs, helping Palestinians grow into their potential," Gvaryahu says.

DRAWING OPPOSITION
The veterans of Breaking the Silence know they don't belong to the Israeli consensus. They see themselves as critics not of the army but of government policy. Yet in a society where the military is highly respected and deeply anchored in the community, their stance has drawn fierce opposition.
As we stroll around the settlement in old Hebron a young man approaches us and introduces himself as Israel. A polite but vigorous argument ensues. Israel, a history student, is angry at Gvaryahu and'his "anti-Israeli" organisation for undermining the country in the eyes of foreigners.
"I'm absolutely shocked," he says. "Soldiers are being killed in Gaza and you're here saying we need to b e full of morals. The IDF" - Israel Defense Forces - "every time they attack a house, they call, they send letters , they text. There is no army in the world that does the same."
Israel warms to his theme. "You know," he says to Gvaryahu, "many soldiers are killed because of you people ... You hand¬cuff the IDF. Every commander in Gaza to¬day has a lawyer following him around."
Gvaryahu replies, "You live in a place where people can't leave the front door of their house, even if it's an 80-year-old woman or a six-year-old child. It's collective punishment... That's a moral discussion which I think it is important to have."
Israel disagrees: "This is not an occupation. This is Jewish land. Abraham came to is this city. We were promised this land," he says. "We were exiled by the Romans 2,000 years ago, but we're back home. I know there were other people here on this land when we came back, but it's absolutely not occupation." He adds, "You can't judge. You don't suffer from shootings here."
"I want to end this reality of long-lasting military occupation for the benefit of both people," says Gvaryahu. "You're not willing to make that compromise for religious reasons, not practical reasons."
Israel says, "We are here because the Israeli government wants us to live here. If we didn't have soldiers here, we'd leave in half a second."
As Gvaryahu walks away Israel calls after him to say he's not too bothered anyway, because "we're winning and you're not".
He's right. The settlements, a cherished cause for ascendant right-wing Israeli parties, have been expanding rapidly across the West Bank; new approvals were granted even in the middle of a recent, unsuccessful round of peace talks brokered by John Kerry, the US secretary of state.
"When we started Breaking the Silence, in 2004,1 think Israeli society was more open to hearing this," Gvaryahu says. "We were even invited into the Israeli parliament. Ten years later we're farther away from ending the occupation."
The climate has become even more delicate since the conflict in Gaza erupted two weeks ago. "I really feel it now more than I felt it a month ago - this feeling that 'this isn't the time, no criticising'," he says. "It's so difficult to hear about these things. It's definitely a taboo. But we're here to raise the moral questions - and if we're here to do that then we have to do it in these difficult times."

BREAKING THE SILENCE EX-ISRAELI SOLDIERS SPEAK
H "On the way back no one had any regrets. We were comparing who had fired at the largest number of people. I was ridiculed for not having killed the armed militant, for just having wounded and not killed him. Then the guys started counting how many each of them had killed." - Staff sergeant, Gaza Strip, 2003

"There's a heavy machine gun there on the porch, a grenade launcher, two marksmen... And they would start ripping the city apart. Spraying. Sight unseen. It was a kind of madness. No one attached any importance to it; the city was like a shooting range." - Staff sergeant, Hebron, 2002

"We were basically the ones who stayed to remove whatever remains were left of the bodies.. .And l remember standing there and simply looking at what was going on. I think they intended to spare me and didn't Let me inside. I stood there and saw parts of something that had once been a human being - and my mouth, I mean, my jaw dropped, and I was just standing there, gaping."-Lieutenant, Gaza Strip, 2003

"My commander decided he identified somebody about 1,000 metres away... The gunner fired to 1,000 metres into a built-up area. At best you hit a wall. At worst you kill somebody who is not the one you aimed at." - Staff sergeant, Gaza Strip, 2000

Excepts taken from a database of 1,000 testimonies from Israeli ex-soldiers, compiled by Breaking the Silence

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:56 AM

Thanks Jim.
I did not expect your support on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM

"Musket, you revert to personal attack and abuse."
"You sad, inadequate person."
!!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:05 AM

Musket, you revert to personal attack and abuse.
You lack the knowledge or intellect to participate in the discussion, so that is all you can do.

Because you sooooo want to join in with the grown ups.

You sad, inadequate person.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:16 AM

"No evidence, just "claims" by Jimmy God Almighty."
Well- Brucie the Belligerant
Unfortunately for you, there is ample history for Israeli atrocities - at the birth of the Israeli state, "Antisemites" like Einstein were warning of the dangers of 'Zionist Fascism' in relation to the slaughter of civilian Arabs.
One of the finest Jewish minds, Noam Chomski, has described Israel as an Apartheid state, and its policy as "ethnic cleansing" and "fascism".
Jewish people have formed organisations all over the world to make their opinions known on what is happening in Israel today and to disassociate themselves from it.
Even within the Church, not so long ago Rabbis for Justice formed themselves into a human shield to prevent the destruction of olive groves belonging to Palestinians, which were being torn down to make room for settlers.
Last year, six former heads of of the Israeli Secret Service sat in from of the camera and expressed their contrition for what they had done in the name of Israel - one choked back the description "Nazi" when he described the present state of Israel.
No proof - don't you have television where you are - can't you get newspapers - are we imagining the rapidly approaching thousand people being slaughtered by those who appear to consider themselves above the laws of humanity - the hundreds of thousands made homeless, the destruction of schools (lost count, but it was 70-odd last time I looked), hospitals, medical centres - all essential to the lives and development of the Palestinian people.
Sure - we all know it's their own fault for not being prepared to surrender and return to the crippling and lethal blockade, the Berlin Walls, the daily humiliation and constant the drain of land in order to create a monocultural (apartheid) State.
Me, God Almighty - it's you and people like you who have made this a "Jewish" crime.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:10 AM

....and promoters of such behavior should not be paid attention to!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

So.. Israel are killing people who they lock in Gaza to stop Hamas lobbing rockets.

Hamas lob rockets to stop Israel locking in people to Gaza, denying them free movement, access to decent food, water etc.

I don't suppose it takes a rocket scientist to show that Hamas may be in the wrong just as the Israeli militants are, but it is for retaliating. It isn't for provoking.

Keith tells us countries have a right to defend themselves.

If the armchair supporters of Israeli terrorism had any idea outside of the bollocks propaganda they cut and paste (often it seems without bothering to read) they might ....?

No. The mission of fools such as poo bad and braidedbeardedbruce is there for all to see. Don't get excited by Keith's support. He just argues against anything Jim or I say. Don't confuse that with having a stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Right on!..Now what do you do when someone decides to upset the peace by launching missiles on civilians, who are not involved in the fight, and would rather have peace, and no terror in the skies!?!?
This is a no brainer....and promoters of such behavior should not be paid attention to!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Terror Tunnels

The Institute for Palestine Studies published a detailed report on Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon in the summer of 2012. It reported that tunnel construction in Gaza has resulted in a large number of child deaths.

    "At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials"


The author, Nicolas Pelham, explains that Hamas uses child laborers to build their terror tunnels because, "much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies".

Tablet

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Ukie
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

I come over here to see what is said about Gaza. Seems to me like what is happening in east Ukraine. There must be no bombing of civilians. This is war crime. The skies must be free of terror. All nations should agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:32 PM

SOURCE for your latest cut&paste screed, Bullshot? 25 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:45 PM

bobad: "The simple question detractors can't answer — What could Israel logically do, other than what it's now doing?"

Duhh...You mean other than on here, as well?
I've only asked that question about a half dozen times, and all the 'detractors' seem to double-down on more detraction!..Either they are just agitators of nothing, completely centered on name calling and snotty remarks..or maybe they're just the center of nothing. Not a single constructive suggestion, or plan for peace, or even a plausible plan...just more blind bitching that Hamas has every reason to launch missiles on innocent people, while hiding behind innocent people to do it, to insure misery and death at BOTH ends...so they can hopefully use it as a publicity stunt!...and maybe the propaganda MIGHT work...even if they initiated it!!

like I said a couple of times before,
"I hear echos, in a maze of words"....

The words are empty and mean nothing...just noise, without the heart and mind, and will, to WANT peace....Hamas doe not want peace. Israel doesn't want the fucking missiles dropping from the sky on it's citizens....What to do?..Stop the fucking missiles, right now, either by negotiations or by force..the choice belongs to Hamas. Israel seems willing to accommodate, either way.
Seems sane, to me....


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:17 PM

Musket: "Beardedbruce and other sundry apologists think such a stance is anti Semitic."

Sounds good on paper, and just the stuff 'so-called liberals' like to spout to instill bias....only one problem....Arabs AND Jews are BOTH Semites.

Oh, oh, back to the spinning table!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM

It is amazing how FEW posts you can make with no factual basis but your imagination.

No evidence, just "claims" by Jimmy God Almighty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

Sorry, Jimmy-

That is what YOU and Hamas do.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:37 PM

Amany who?
it's amazing how many cut-'n-pastes you can dig up to support your case - at the present time Israel is being attacked for its behaviour by human rights groups and independent observers - from inside and outside Israel
Israel is dealing with the former by shooting down demonstrators on the streets of Israel.
If it hadn't been for 100 United States vetoes, Israel would have #faced human rghts and war crimes courts decades ago.
The facilitator of the Sabra/Shatila massacre would almost certainly have been banged up for his part in that affront to humanity if they hadn't appointed him Prime Minister, out of harm's way.
"As the fight in Gaza wears on, anti-Semites across Europe are attacking the continent's Jews under the pretext of protesting Israel's politics."
Quite probably - and Israel's behaviour has opened the door for them to do it, if they ever needed one.
People like you aren't helping, by blaming "the Jews" for acts of Israeli terrorism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

As the fight in Gaza wears on, anti-Semites across Europe are attacking the continent's Jews under the pretext of protesting Israel's politics.
Since the beginning of the current war between Israel and Hamas, eight synagogues in France have been attacked. In Turkey, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has asked for Jews to apologize for the actions of the Jewish state. In Germany, a prominent Muslim imam gave a sermon asking Allah to kill all of the "Zionist Jews."
The atmosphere in Europe since the beginning of the war has been so toxic that the foreign ministers of France, Italy, and Germany on Tuesday issued a rare joint statement condemning anti-Semitism at pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

All of this presents a troubling paradox for Zionism. The state of Israel was founded in 1948 as a haven for Jews. But in 2014 Europe's anti-Semites have attacked Jews for the deeds of the Jewish state.

It is a classic anti-Semitic canard to punish any Jew for the perceived crimes of all of them. There is no evidence also to suggest that if Israel did not respond to rockets fired from Hamas, the Jews of Europe would be any safer or the continent's anti-Semites would be any more tolerant. After all, some of the worst attacks on Jews in France occurred at a time of relative quiet in Israel.

But during a war that has claimed nearly 700 Palestinians and far fewer Israelis, Jewish leaders in Europe say their communities are being held responsible for the actions of Israel.

"If you are a French Jew you should not be responsible physically for what happens 4,000 kilometers away," Roger Cukierman, the president of the umbrella organization representing the Jewish community in France known as CRIF, told The Daily Beast.

Cukierman is also concerned that in some circles the media have portrayed those attacks as being spurred by small groups of young Jewish citizens who have formed self-defense organizations. He said these groups did not represent the community and he opposed vigilantism, but he also said their role in the attacks has been overblown.

"I am shocked when I hear journalists saying if the De La Roquette synagogue was attacked it is because of the Jews," he said. "This is propaganda. We had eight synagogues being attacked. I am worried about the fact that synagogues are being attacked and not worried about these self-defense groups."

Victor Eliezar, the secretary general of Greece's federation of Jewish community groups, said he had not seen in Greece a rise in anti-Semitic attacks like that of France, but he had noticed a trend in Greek media to delegitimize the Jewish state. "I think the continued use of propaganda, the continued use of using the Palestinian blood, is a tool against Israel, but I worry it will arrive also to the Jews," he said.

The chief executive officer of the World Jewish Congress, Robert Singer, summed up the problem as follows: "I think Jews in Europe are being seen as Israeli."

Most countries take a special interest in their countrymen abroad. But in the case of Israel, it has a special obligation to protect the Jewish diaspora. Throughout its history, Israel has helped airlift vulnerable Jewish populations in countries like Yemen and Ethiopia to safety. The state also secretly aided the immigration of Soviet Jews to Israel during the Cold War when such dissidents were refused the right to leave the Soviet Union.

After all, some of the worst attacks on Jews in France occurred at a time of relative quiet in Israel.
Israel also considers in its military planning the potential for violent retaliation not only against its own citizens but also Jewish populations abroad.

Amos Yadlin, a former head of the intelligence directorate for the Israel Defense Force, told The Daily Beast that Israeli defense planners do take into account whether and how military actions will affect diaspora Jewish populations. But he also said that it is only one of many considerations Israel leaders weigh.

"The general mindset in Israel regarding its responsibility towards the diaspora is based on three principles," Yadlin said. "The first is Zionism—you are all welcome to join us. Secondly, if you're not interested in joining, we try and help you through your government, and advise you when advice is needed. And third—if your government is unwilling to help, and there is risk to your lives, we will try and help in any way we can."

With the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, Yadlin said it ironically makes the case for immigration to Israel much stronger. "The threats imposed to Jews by anti-Semitism in Europe are not a surprise to us, Jews have been suffering from them for centuries," he said. "The irony in it, today, is that it encourages Jews from countries like France to immigrate into Israel, thus making it stronger."

There may be something to this. The Jewish Agency for Israel—which encourages Jewish immigration to the state—estimates that 5,000 Jews will emigrate from France this year to Israel, the highest figure of French Jewish immigration to the country since its founding in 1948.
But for many Jews that choose to remain in France, they are expecting the country's police to protect them.

"We are French citizens," Cukierman said. "It is the duty of the French government to protect us."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

Wrong again, Jimmy boy.

From Egypt:

"Another presenter, Amany el-Khayat, accused Hamas of trying to promote its "resistance" image by letting Gazan civilians die, saying the group seeks to "wash its face ... with Palestinians' blood."

On Wednesday, in his first public comments on the Gaza crisis, Egypt's president did not even issue the usual Egyptian condemnation of Israeli "aggression."
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

"YOU have NEVER stated that Hamas should stop any of it's war crimes."
No Brucie, you Bearded Little Bomb-Thrower, you.
I have described the "inevitable" in the face of Israeli terrorism
You, on the other hand, have supported that terrorism unequivocally, claiming that the Palestine people have no rights to the lands they have occupied for a couple of millenia - which is what this is all about.
Yor lot are demanding unconditional surrender and a return to Israeli jackbooting genocide - I have suggested throughout that the the whole question be put in the hands of the U.N. - without the interference of the U.S. veto.
If lobbing ineffectual rockets which have killed 28 people in 12 years is a war crime, whet does that make the use of flechette missiles DIME bombs, White phosphorus, heavy artillery nad , on occasion napalm, for decade after decade - not to mention attempts to starve an entire people into submission for nearly ten years?
War crimes my arse - the Palestinians wouldn't register on the Richter scale next to your boyos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

Canadian Government position:

"Adam Hodge, spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird, told AFP in response to the criticisms that "Canada mourns the death and suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza.

"However, responsibility rests solely with Hamas and its allies, who launched and continue to feed this crisis," he added.

"We stand by Israel's right to defend itself, by itself. Israel will be forced to continue defending itself as long as Hamas continues its rocket attacks against civilians.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:09 PM

No, Jimmy

YOU have NEVER stated that Hamas should stop any of it's war crimes.

You make excuses for them, but have never said that Hamas should STOP.



I will plainly state MY OPINION:
Israel should stop all operations in Gaza- AS SOON as the they have destroyed the missiles and tunnels that make Hamas a threat to Israel's civilian population.



Now, can we have a statement of YOUR opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

"I am telling to the parties"
Both parties would that be - hasn't that been our argument all along then?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM

A Thank You Letter From Hamas to the Media

You in the mainstream media have been amazing in your support for Hamas, and we're so grateful to you. This really helps us in spreading anti-Semitism, and starting new rounds of terror at will. Blessings be upon you, love from Hamas

Noah Beck

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM

I'm sure that had Simcha Jacobovici been around 70 years ago, he could have gone far as a propaganda journalist, just so long as he changed his name..

Poo Bad. Either you are impressed by this kind of claptrap, in which case your gullibility precludes debating reality with you, or you are like minded, in which case you are sick.

Ban Ki Moon said what all decent people would say. There is no just side in this conflict. Just innocent people, mainly Palestinians but a few unlucky Israelis too, trapped in this attempt by Israel to see how far the international community will go to stop their incarceration of a whole country. Hamas do not supply the answer, but there again, we are not living under the conditions Israel impose on their neighbours, and have done since 1967. Given their circumstances, perhaps resorting to voting for Hamas is a bit like UK people voting for UKIP and other ultra right wing fascist parties on the basis of existing parties not supplying good government? We can't judge because we aren't there. When I was there, I could have sat and fucking wept, and that was a fairly quiet time...

The cost of the next election campaign in The UK is counted in money. In Israel it is counted in coffins of innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:39 PM

The simple question detractors can't answer — What could Israel logically do, other than what it's now doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM

Journalist and documentary filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici on how Hamas has turned their children into props, and sacrificed them on the altar of Jihad. By misreporting, the media encourages the bad guys to kill their own children, and has dragged Israel into a war it did not want.

Those TV cameras responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM

This is what Ban Ki Moon actually said.
"I am telling to the parties -- both Israelis and Hamas, Palestinians, that it is morally wrong to kill your own people," he said. "Whole world has been watching, is watching with great concern. You must stop fighting. And enter into dialogue.

"Whatever grievances you may have, this is wrong. Why are you continuing to kill people? There are many other ways to resolve this issue without killing each other."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

"On Ch4 News a few nights ago she said Hamas actions were illegal."
Speaking on behalf of the U.N. of course...!!!!
Human rights organisations have been declaring Israeli behaviour illegal and inhuman for years
Had it not been for the U.S. veto, Israel would have been hauled up before the U.N. dozens of times to answer for its behaviour
Isn't it strange (not) that whenever the U.N. or any body indulge in criticism or condemnation of Israel - including John Kerry, they are branded "Antisemitic", yet if a stray mamber of the U.n. passes an opinion in its favour, that opinion becomes indisputable?
Jim Carroll
The UN Secretary no less, has just declared Israel's behaviour as "wrong", but I don't suppose that'll carry the same weights as Navi Pilays, for some strange reason.
Israel's action has now reached The West Bank

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

As the garbage you post is YOUR perspective, FWK.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

That is your perspective Jim, but enlightened governments do not share it.
Also, Navi Pillay (UN Human Rights) said Israeli action COULD be illegal.
On Ch4 News a few nights ago she said Hamas actions were illegal.
She used the word "unequivocally."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM

"EU countries call Hamas terrorists not Israel."
EU politicians call Hamas terrorists - Israel most certainly and is slaughtering civilians and destroying their homes, hospitals and schools on the basis of their claim
Israel was won by terrorism, as were many nations, and their 'terrorists' became national heroes
The difference with Israel is that it has become a terrorist State using terrorist methods to expand its territory and crush opposition to its doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

Oh, bum. Only just noticed who I was replying to. Too late to withdraw it now. And my point holds anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

The antisemitism subsists in all your obsessive concentration on this particular [defensive] conflict, with no reference to other, far more destructive and lethal, ones currently in progress in the same area.

You think it doesn't, but it does...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 10:50 AM

The world, which I subscribe to..

Which world is that Musket?


EU countries call Hamas terrorists not Israel.
Does your world not have a Europe or an EU?

I have long suspected you are not of this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

It's a democracy thing I suppose. The world, which I subscribe to requires Israel to cease their terrorist activities in Gaza.

Beardedbruce and other sundry apologists think such a stance is anti Semitic.

Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

You even admitted that you had the wrong person- after the fact.

Well, BullshotBruce, that's what honest folks do when they realize they've made a mistake. Unlike yourself.

PS: it would have been a bit difficult to admit it before the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

"YOU have not yet presented ANY such facts. "
Turn on your television - take a look at the photographs of the missiles used, count the civilian dead -red the reports of the Shatila/Sabra massacre facilitated and actively assisted by Israel, who then went on to make the declared leader of Israel's complicity prime minister- see the photographs of children's faces burned to the bone by white phosphorus dropped on civilian area...... all recorded history.
Of course, none of this mkes the slightest difference to you - you have proposed that all Palestinians be evicted and "let their Muslim friends in the surrounding states take care of them" (on the same thread as the one where I supported Hamas (according to you!)
Have a good day now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM

Musket, BBs point that far greater death tolls of Arabsare ignored here because Israel is not involved is a very valid one.

Where is there condemnation of Assad or Isis to compare with the never ending, all consuming posts about Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM

Jimmy boy,

" when the facts of Israel's terrorism "

YOU have not yet presented ANY such facts. YOU have made claims, which you will not provide proof for, and presented statements from ONE side, demanded we accept them and then refused to even investigate claims by the other side.


Not a reasonable way to debate, or even persuade others you have a valid point to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM

"Alan Dershowitz"
O. J Simpson's lawyer who once accused Alice Walker of 'antisemitism' for refusing permission for her novel, 'The Color Purple' to be published in Israel
Now that is worrying!!
Is there really any point in producing pro-Israeli cut-,n-pastes from wherever you can gather them, when the facts of Israel's terrorism speak for themselves in the murder of civilians (%20 of them children), the destruction of hospitals, schools health centers and home, and the turning of then of thousands of families out onto the street, to be maime and killed by bombs, heavy artillery, chemical and biological weapons.... etc?
A bear of very little brain indeed

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

You have defended the use of white phosphorous as "harmless illumination"

Your quote is faked.
You lie again.
It is actually dangerous stuff.
Why do you keep making up shit about me Jim?

DIME may have biological effects, but not "bacteriological."
Little is actually known of its effects on people.
It is designed to reduce collateral damage by limiting the spread of the explosion, so you can see why Israel might want to use it.
How certain are you of its use Jim?

On flechettes, I was trying to help you understand that they are just a refinement of Herr Shrapnels's invention, not a totally new kind of weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

No caring for small boys, no abuse, no convictions- STOP judging others by yourself and your friends.