BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM

By the way Keith - Israel has been reported as targeting a rehabilitation hospital in its war against civilian - another triumph you can chalk up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:16 AM

" pointed out that most weapons kill by driving bits of metal through bodies.
Nasty but sadly legal and universal."
These missiles scatter thousands of small darts over a wide area - they are deliberately designed anti-personnel weapons and are illegal for use on non combatant civilians.
I can take it that you accept this monstrous shit as being acceptable for use on civilians - just about wraps it up on your bloodthirsty inhumanity - that'll do nicely thank you.
Three letters today from the Irish Times indicating that, While Israel is winning the war, it will be never accepted as winning the peace:

The crisis in Gaza

Sir, - The one hope, however 'forlorn, of the terrible tragedy being played out in Gaza in these awful days is that the inter¬national powers, especially the USA and the EU, will ensure the removal of the conditions which are the root cause of the terrible situation there. This would simply involve granting the people of both Palestine and Gaza the right to have their own governments and to travel within and out of their territories by land, sea and air.
Of course Israel, like any country, has the right to control the traffic across its own borders, but it has none whatsoever to make Gaza the largest open air prison in the world, to n have hundreds of checkpoints :- across the illegally occupied territories of Palestine and to prevent Gaza and Palestine having their own airports.    Repression in any society inevitably leads to extremism, usually referred to by the repressors as terrorism, as we have seen in our own country and elsewhere in the history of the world. Hamas may indeed be called a terrorist organisation in that its rockets undoubtedly cause terror in Israel, but by any measure of terrorism, its actions are more minor than those of the Israeli government.
There is no competition. The real terrorists in Palestine and Gaza are the Israeli Defence Forces, with Hamas, with its largely ineffective rockets, a far distant second. The responsibility for bringing about a permanent peace in Palestine clearly now belongs to the international political world and our own representatives in the European Parliament must promote the establishment of a complete boycott of all educational, social and business programmes with Israel until its government recognises the rights of the Palestinian people to have the same freedoms as their own people enjoy. Until this is achieved, the battles will continue. –
Yours, etc.
PROF EMERITUS
JOHN KELLY,
University College,
Dublin 4

A chara, - Paddy Crean (Letters, July 23rd) suggests that "If Ireland wants to position itself as a peacemaker, it must first be careful not to be seen as taking sides". What nonsense. Let me list just a few of the issues on which Mr Crean would have us take the safe middle ground: 600 Palestinians, including 121 children, killed in two weeks by Israeli shelling. -According to the UN office for the co-ordina¬tion of humanitarian affairs (OCHA), "there is literally no safe place (in Gaza) for civilians", with 500 homes destroyed by Israeli air strikes and 100,000 Palestinians seeking shelter from the UN Relief and Works Agency.
The UN human rights com¬missioner, Navi Pillay, suggests that the Israeli action "could amount to war crimes"- not to mention the endless land grab and stealing of natural water springs by Israeli settlers on the West Bank or the apartheid wall which, according to the International Court of Justice, is "contrary to international law". The list goes on and on.
As for me, I'm taking sides. Boycott Israel and all things Is¬raeli. - Is mise le meas,
BRENDAN ARCHBOLD,
Philipsburgh Avenue,
Dublin 3

Sir, - Imagine if after the London bombings Britain had bombed the Bogside, shelled Divis Flats and fired a tank shell at Altnagelvin Hospital. Would we call a resulting 500 + deaths mass murder? - Yours etc
MIKE JENNINGS,
Kincora Road,
Clontarf,
Dublin 3

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM

Musket,
   Keith asks, "The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.
Do we disagree on that?"

Is this correct?
(I'd like to add a 'footnote'. The above question uses the word 'wrong' and being as that could go back into arguing about justification(s), ad nauseum, perhaps, 'actions that initiated the weapon exchanges'...if that's OK?)

Is there common ground here??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:50 AM

Keith. In all seriousness, why are you asking people to condemn Hamas?

Are you inferring some here support their methods of fighting fire with fire?

You see, you have allowed yourself entry into the camp that says that if you don't support one set of armed militants (Israeli forces) you must therefore must be in league with other militant forces (Hamas.)

Before this subject came up, you were a bloke with a very dogmatic view that rarely reflected reality and it was a good laugh to watch you dig out "eminent" sources to justify your stance.

Now, you have crossed a line. The others such as Poo Bad and braidedbeardedbruce are irrelevant mouthpieces for hate. It is a pity you have chosen to play in their sandpit.

You have gone so far down in my estimation I wonder whether talking the piss out of you is the correct approach? It just seems too friendly given the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:20 AM

Typo correction:

Keith from Hertferd: "All such weapons can be put to illegal use.
If that has happened it is disgusting."

I think the issue lies somewhere what people see as 'legal' or 'morally right' to do...right now nobody has come up with a possible solution, and you've become AS deadlocked AS the Israelis and Hamas. 'WHO' gives in, 'how' and 'why'...even in HERE.

Keith asks, "The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.
Do we disagree on that?"

Is this correct?
(I'd like to add a 'footnote'. The above question uses the word 'wrong' and being as that could go back into arguing about justification(s), ad nauseum, perhaps, 'actions that initiated the weapon exchanges'...if that's OK?)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Keith from Hertferd: "All such weapons can be put to illegal use.
If that has happened it is disgusting."

I think the issue lies somewhere what people see as 'legal' or 'morally right' to do...right now nobody has come up with a possible solution, and you've become as deadlocked at the Israelis and Hamas. 'WHO' gives in, 'how' and 'why'...even in HERE.

Keith asks, "The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.
Do we disagree on that?"

Is this correct?
(I'd like to add a 'footnote'. The above question uses the word 'wrong' and being as that could go back into arguing about justification(s), ad nauseum, perhaps, 'actions that initiated the weapon exchanges'...if that's OK?)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM

Jim, I did respond to you question about flechette weapons.

I pointed out that most weapons kill by driving bits of metal through bodies.
Nasty but sadly legal and universal.

All such weapons can be put to illegal use.
If that has happened it is disgusting.
Has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:20 AM

The common ground is that Hamas is wrong to fire rockets and it is a war crime.

Do we disagree on that?
If not, my further question was, does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals, or do they lose that right because of the further war crime of siting among civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM

Hey Michael!

I fucking never fucking well chaired a fucking meeting of fucking trustees, you ignorant fucker. Fucking Parliament are the fucking trustees of fucking NHS fucking trusts.

Fucking well get your fucking facts right before fucking spouting off fucking fantasy to someone who fucking well doesn't give a flying fuck.

More tea vicar?




Still, for someone who doesn't read my posts, you certainly reply to them. A bit like some of your like minded friends on this and similar threads. They read what they want to read and judge others by their prejudice rather than fact.

Trust me, any criticism of you comes from what you type not what I want others to think you type.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:54 AM

"Common ground."
Not unless this inhuman toe-rag has leapt the humanity-gap and decided to join the rest of us (or maybe decided to live up to his Christian principles instead ove wearing them like a logo on a tee shirt).
I find arguing with people who constantly defend atrocities by either denial or by ignoring them distasteful, to say the least.
Flechette weapons anybody?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:32 AM

I think that was an expression when I was in junior high. You've come a long way!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:07 PM

Bite me, Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:53 PM

Keith from Hertferd; "Thank you for those straight answers Jim.
Common ground."

I told you, Keith..he's the only one with straight dialogue and maintaining civility(though we may disagree, in places). He's putting the other babies to shame!...and USEFUL dialogue is what is needed!!

Give him time to think onto the next two questions...BTW, the way you asked them, DOES, include some 'possible bias contentious judgement calls'....but if it doesn't DE-EVOLVE into all the nitpicking, you can come to a base for resolution!

beardedbruce: (To Greg)"If Israel did not have the defense system to protect their civilians, Gaza would have been carpet bombed after the first few missiles from there, and the death toll for civilians would have been in the tens of thousands.
It is obvious that that would suit you just fine.
I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation."


I doubt if Greg is capable of thinking constructively, other than throwing out very juvenile slurs and cat-calls(along with Musket). However, if Greg wants to change that(and not being thought of as a light-weight), it's up to him to follow Jim Carroll's lead, and discuss the issue, sans all the back-biting.......I mean, it's up to him if he wants to be taken seriously, or as a Toy Poodle, yapping ignorable crap.

Bruce: "I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation."

There is only one solution, that I can think of, right now....stop the launching of missiles into Israel, so Israel doesn't have to fire back, to protect its citizens and country, by firing into the Hamas bases, surrounded, purposely by design, around the Palestinian people, and their domestic infrastructure.
It's simple common sense....any other suggestions to a solution??

...and as I posted....

"Solutions??

I hear echos,
In a maze of words!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:32 PM

clearly shows that you do support Hamas/Palestineans.

So now you're rather stupidly conflating "Hamas" with "Palestineans"?
Jesus Wept.

But aside from that, John, you obviously cannot support your spurious accusation. No surprise there.

You maintain the same infantile and idiotic assertion that anyone who opposes certain policies of the Israeli government is therefore ipso facto:

1. A supporter of Hamas

2. An anti-Semite.

You, sir, are either an idiot or an asshole. Or possibly both.

I will not respond to any of them that do used reasoned argument.

I then look forward to your res[ponses to posts -like your own- that do NOT show reasoned argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:10 PM

Greg--

We both know,(nay, everybody knows) that you probably have never directly said, "I support Hamas," or "I support Palestine," or "I hate Jews," or "I hate Israel,". But the tenor of your posts on the actions of Israel, and your sarcasm and invective, the name calling you invoke towards other peoples opinions, or on posted outside articles clearly shows that you do support Hamas/Palestineans. I counted perhaps a dozen or more such posts from you from August '13 thru Sept/Oct '13 which reveal that strategy just at this thread alone. I know I'd find way more if I bothered to continue to search until today, here; or if I looked up all your posts at various related threads over the years.

So you may curse me; you may call me names; and you may address me in scatological terms, whatever. But you are what you are, no matter how you try to deny it. While I,may read your future posts, I will not respond to any of them that do used reasoned argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

"Israeli troops entering Gaza last week have so far uncovered 18 tunnels used by Hamas to send armed terrorists into Israel and built using an estimated 800,000 tons of concrete. What else might that much concrete build? Erecting Dubai's Burj Khalifa, the world's tallest tower, required 110,000 tons of concrete"

"Hamas, then, could've treated itself to seven such monstrosities and still had a few tens of thousands of tons to spare. If it wanted to build kindergartens equipped with bomb shelters, like Israel has built for the besieged citizens of Sderot, for example—after all, noted military strategists like Jon Stewart have spent last week proclaiming that Gaza's citizens had nowhere to hide from Israel's artillery—Hamas could have used its leftovers to whip up about two that were each as big as Giants Stadium. And that's just 18 tunnels. Egypt, on its end, recently claimed to have destroyed an additional 1,370. That's a lot of concrete."

Some Concrete Facts About Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM

Yup, that quite an envious record for the Govt of Israel: one dead Palestinian child every hour.

Quite the gang of humanitarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

I sure wouldn't believe that base on your hundreds of posts over the years. Your posts gainsay that comment.

OK John From The Bullshit Coast: PROVE that I have expressed support for Hamas in any post on this forum, ever, or apoligize.

(Not that I expect either from a weasel such as yourself.)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:54 PM

Proportionality in terms of war casualties is a stupid, meaningless term! The are about 2M folks living in Gaza; about 8M in Israel.
So, if proportionality were observed, Gazans should be permitted to kill 4 Israelis for each Gazan killed; or perhaps a ratio of 7 Israelis for each 2 Gaza casualties, if we don't count the 1.5M Arab Israelis.

The truth is there should be no casualties on either side, but if the Gazans want to continue fighting, then all bets are off. Israel, nor any country, is obliged to let any of its citizens die because because the other side want s to fight. To quote Gen. Geo. Patton, "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM

Israel's Ambassador to the United States Ron Dermer on proprtionality:

"It's important to understand what proportionality is in terms of the rules of war. There's two basic principles that you have to remember. The first is distinction, you make a distinction between combatants and noncombatants. That's the most important principle of the rules of war, that you have to make that distinction. And here Israel always makes that distinction. You have have Hamas that is deliberately targeting our civilians hoping to kill as many as possible. And you have Israel that does not deliberately target a single Palestinian civilian. We don't deliberately target their civilians. For us, when a civilian is killed it's an operational failure. And the more civilians who are killed, the greater the operational failure. And obviously a tragedy even of itself. And for Hamas, they celebrate—the greater the number of civilian casualties, for them, the greater the success of their operation.

    And then you have the issue of proportionality.

    Let's say there's a legitimate target because when a schoolhouse, hospital, mosque is turned into a military command center or a weapons depot, or a place where you fire rockets, it becomes by the rules of war a legitimate target. You cannot turn a hospital into a military command center. You cannot do that according to the rules of law. It's a war crime for Hamas to do that. You cannot turn an UNRWA school into a weapons depot, that's a war crime. You cannot use a Mosque as a missile manufacturing facility. It becomes a legitimate target. Then the question is okay, but can you target it in this specific instance.

    There you get into the question of proportionality. Meaning, just because it's a legitimate target doesn't necessarily give you the right to hit it. Because for that, for you to be able to do that, you have to show that the gain you will get from the military action you take is worth the potential loss of lives that you might even foresee ahead of time. So I don't want to get into theoretical examples but if you had you know 1 rocket that was sitting in a school somewhere and there are 50 kids in a classroom, then you cannot actually target to get to that rocket and kill those kids. That would be disproportionate because the gain that you have by hitting that one rocket would not justify killing 50 kids in the school. By the same token if you had 200 rockets in place and you had one civilian, by the rules of war, you could target that place even if you knew ahead of time that the civilian would be hurt.

    Now there are all sorts of judgment calls that happen in between. Can you target that same target tomorrow or in an hour or in three hours? And Israel is always making these calculations."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM

"I do think the point has to be made, if rockets are being shot at Israel, that Israel does have a right to defend itself. But , the bottom line is the question of proportionality. Madeleine Albright in a recent CNN interview with Wolf Blitzer.

Question: in what conflict was the concept of proportionality followed?

I dont recall it being a major factor in the long history of conflict. It did not seem a big factor in either WW1 or WW2. The allies, NATO nor the USA has not seem to consider it as a big factor. The USA surely didinot follow it in Japan (surely not with the A bombs), in Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Afganistan, Croatia, or even in Lybia. Russia has not seemed to care much for it in its conflicts. It does not even seem to have a significant meaning in the history of conflict in Europe, nor even in the Middle East.

Is it something to be considered for some conflicts, but not in others? If so- why so and where so?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

GregF specializes in lying, even when it serves no real purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:49 PM

The Israeli Defense Forces photograph and then attack Hamas gunmen firing through an apartment building's windows.


http://finance.yahoo.com/video/hamas-gunmen-firing-windows-home-193000803.html



And how many Palestinian civilians are still in that building, whose bodies will be used by Hamas for political purposes?




I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

"Not so, BSB - I don't support the Government of Israel. FOR THAT MATTER, NEITHER DO I SUPPORT HAMAS (caps for emphasis)."

I sure wouldn't believe that base on your hundreds of posts over the years. Your posts gainsay that comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

GregF,

If Israel did not have the defense system to protect their civilians, Gaza would have been carpet bombed after the first few missiles from there, and the death toll for civilians would have been in the tens of thousands.

It is obvious that that would suit you just fine.




I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

Israel has means to protect civilians, and uses them.

Yup, BSB- That's why there are 700+ Palestinian civilians & school children dead, and thousands wounded.

God forbid Israel DIDN'T have and use the means to protect civilians, eh? Then someone might get hurt.

YOU have chosen to support those who are trying to kill civilians.

Not so, BSB - I don't support the Government of Israel. For that matter, neither do I support Hamas.

Bruce: Get back on your meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM

The IDF targeted sections of the Al-Wafa rehabilitation hospital in Gaza's Shejaiya neighborhood on Wednesday, explaining that the medical facility was being used as a Hamas command center and utilized repeatedly by Islamist gunmen to launch attacks on Israeli forces. It said it had issued repeated warnings to the hospital authorities, told civilians to vacate the premises, and warned the gunmen to stop abusing the medical facility.

"Hamas terrorists have been intentionally abusing the hospital and other international protected symbols to indiscriminately attack Israel and its civilians," said IDF spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner.

The 17 patients who were in the complex were moved to another location last Thursday, the hospital's chief, Basman Alashi, told Haaretz, after the Israeli Air Force carried out an earlier strike at the site.

In a statement the IDF explained that "the hospital grounds and its immediate surroundings have been repeatedly utilized by Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad as a command center, rocket launching site, and a post enabling terrorists to open fire at soldiers."

The IDF noted that it had repeatedly brought the abuse of the hospital grounds to the attention of international organizations and also directly warned the hospital administration and Palestinian officials of the situation.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM

As for Hamas having the right to self defense, here is what Hamas has to say:

(Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal )
"The rapprochement efforts even involved Meshaal trying to distance Hamas from his previous outspoken support of the Syrian insurgency, arguing that while people "have the right to rise up for their rights," this "must be done through peaceful means." The Syrian rebel coalition known as the Army of Islam responded with disdain: "He who performs jihad out of his office should not offer advice to those in the trenches.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

...& he could never dream of "doing a character assassination", could he?

Why, perish the thought! The very idea!...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:40 AM

Thought, for once in a way [I am no more obliged than anyone else to be entirely consistent] to read Musket's post apostrophising me of 0809am. Dear me, he doesn't like being addressed in the sort of terms he is always aiming at others, does he? Squeal squeal squeal: "you have your own little la la land to begin with, and secondly, it isn't worth it as you can be rather nasty at times. What the fuck my service to the community has to do with anything in this thread is beyond me, unless you are doing a character assassination". Why, oh deary-weary-me, that's me demolished for sure.

And is he really incapable of putting up any post without a "fuck" in it? Just asking out of interest really. Were his Trust reports full of the same? He really is a contemptible little worm, isn't he? What a specimen. And if I want to go on reminding everyone how he boasts of his distinguished career --

--during which I don't suppose he spent his time telling the Trustees in the meetings he chaired what a lot of "thick cunts" they were [he even invented his own abbreviation for Mudcat, "TC", which he expected us all to recognise] --

then I shall do so without the leave of him, entirely confident in my assessment that it is his own MO that has brought such reminders & denunciations on himself.

And if he doesn't like it -- well, oh-deary-weary-me again, he can just his·fave·word off!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

Apparently you're unaware,Schmeg, of the fact that Hamas sites its missiles in Mosques, schools, hospitals and residential areas making them all legitimate targets according to the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

GregF

Which proves the point- Hamas has invested only in means to kill civilians, and uses them.

Hamas has chosen to use construction material to make shelters for their (illegal) weapons.




Israel has means to protect civilians, and uses them.

Israel has chosen to use construction material to make shelters for their civilian population.






YOU have chosen to support those who are trying to kill civilians.

Many here have chosen to support those who are trying to protect civilians. YOU are certainly NOT one of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Musket posted this on the wrong thread.
To then blame the dead men, women and children caught up in it for not doing as one side tells them rather than the other is beyond the bounds of decency.

As usual you attack what no-one has said because you are incapable of challenging what is actually said.

The Palestinian people of Gaza are helpless victims.
The Israelis tell them where it is dangerous to stay.
Hamas tells them to stay anyway.
What can they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

Apparently Keith, you're unaware that the Palestinians don't HAVE an anti-missle system - just dead kids,thousands of wounded, destroyed Mosques, blown-up hospitals, schools & such like.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:17 AM

No, there has never been such an effective anti-missile system.
Some always get through though.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM

Israel uses its missiles to protect citizens

Jeez, Boo - then they're pretty inept with the shitty job they're doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:02 AM

Musket, I sense a campaign of lies based on the false premise that we have a mutual aquantance and may have met.
If that is your plan I call you on it now.
You are a liar and can not substantiate this latest lie any more than previous lies.

Jim, that was not a "report" it was "Msyi -Soufan Opinion"

We agree that Palestinians and Israelis have a right to self defence.
We agree that the rocket attacks are unacceptable.
We agree that revenge is unacceptable.
Is any action against the rockets acceptable, or does the illegal siting deprive Israel of that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Not enough dead Jews to make you happy Schmeg? You want to know the reason for those numbers?

Israel uses its missiles to protect citizens, whereas Hamas uses citizens to protect missiles.

There you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

By mid-day Wednesday, the Palestinian death toll stood at 657, most of them civilians.

Two Israeli civilians have also died in the 15-day fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

Another aspect of the war to be ignored - FRim this morning's Irish Times:

OFFENSIVE SPARKS CHAIN REACTION AMONG ISRAELI ARABS IN THE GALILEE.
In Haifa

Current violence has turned spotlight on to Israel's largest minority.
Madj Kayyal - self-confident, purposeful, brimming with energy - has the air of a man who feels he's part of something big.
Over coffee on a hot summer's morning in Haifa, in northern Israel, the 23-year-old holds forth enthusiastically about how his generation has turned its back on political par¬ties, with their hierarchies and compromises, and fashioned a newer, more fluid form of political activism dominated by smaller networks linked by social media,
"There is a big change happening," he says. "There are internal changes in Arab society and the political movement here, and in the way people are organising."
Kayyal's cause is that of Palestinians in Israel. Comprising more than 20 per cent of the Israeli population, Arabs are the Jewish state's largest minority and their position goes to the heart of some of the country's biggest social debates. But, according to Kayyal, the younger generation haven't merely embraced new ways of doing politics. They also want more than their parents did.
"In the 1990s it was a revolutionary thing to say 'I am Palestinian' or hold the Palestinian flag. It was a big issue to declare your identity," he says. "The attitude now is to put identity into action. In the 1990s, the action was to declare solidarity - to say, 'We are Palestinian and we support Gaza.' In 2014, the youth movement doesn't say, 'We want to declare our anger.' It says, 'We want to change the law.' And how are we going to do that? By taking to the streets."
The descendants of 160,000 Palestinian Arabs who remained on their land when Israel was established in 1948, the Arabs in Israel have been under the spotlight in recent weeks as the conflict in Gaza has escalated into the deadliest confrontation here in a decade.
It was not in the West Bank but in the Arab towns of the Galilee, in the north of Israel, that some of the biggest demonstrations broke out earlier this month after a 16-year-old boy, Muhammad Abu Khdeir, was abducted and killed near Jerusalem in what the Israeli authorities say was a racist revenge at¬tack following the killing of three Jewish teenagers.

STREET PROTESTS
Those incidents were part of the sequence of events that spiralled into the Gaza war. And as battles have raged in Gaza, the Arab communities of northern Israel have continued to take to the streets. On Monday hundreds of protesters clashed with police in Nazareth, Israel's largest Arab city, during a 3,000-strong protest against the military strikes on Gaza.
Israel's Arab minority, large¬ly concentrated in the towns and cities of the Galilee, occupies an ambiguous space in the country's political and social map. They have Israeli pass¬ports, attend Israeli schools and universities and vote in Israeli elections. According to prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu, they enjoy full civil rights.
Yet this is only part of the story. Half of families below the poverty line in Israel are Arab, even though the Arab community accounts for just one fifth of the population. Two-thirds of the children defined as suffering from malnutrition in 2010 in Israel were Palestinians. Schools are segregated.
A number of Arab politicians are members of the Knesset but even the Israeli foreign ministry, on its website, observes that the Arab community is "a politically peripheral group in a highly centralised state", an Ar¬abic-speaking minority in a He¬brew-speaking state, and "essentially non-assimilating".
Since Israel's establishment in 1948, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory military service out of consideration for their family, religious and cultural affiliations with the Arab world "as well as concern over possible dual loyalties", as the ministry puts it. There are just 2,200 Muslims in Israel's security services, which includes the police and prison staff.
As individuals, many Palestinians have achieved success in the Jewish state as judges, politicians, doctors, writers, broadcasters and academics. The number in the civil service is growing. Yet, within the com¬munity, there is deep-seated anger about harassment and discrimination, and what is seen as an attempt in recent years to amend the laws to weaken their rights.
Grievances include a law of loyalty which requires citizens to express full recognition of Israel as a Jewish and Zionist state; the right of communities in Jewish suburbia not to accept Palestinians as residents; and the right of the state to discriminate by law against Arabs in the privatisation of lands.
"[Foreign minister] Avigdor Lieberman's election slogan was that the problem is not the West Bank and the settlements, the problem is the Palestinians inside Israel," says Hassan Jaba-reen, director of Adalah, a Haifa-based legal centre.

INFERIOR STATUS
"Emphasising the Jewish character of the Israeli state is main¬ly targeting the citizenship status of the Palestinians in Israel, giving them secondary and inferior status and portraying their existence as a problem."
The killing of Muhammad Abu Khdeir was the "trigger" for protests in the Galilee, says Mohammed Zeidan of the Arab Association for Human Rights in Nazareth, but their deeper cause was a sense of anger after years of discrimination and an increasingly hostile climate -compounded by a sense that the peace process had been buried and the international community had lost interest.
In Haifa, a relatively prosperous port to wn with a mixed population, social integration is "non-existent", says Nadim Nashif, who runs Baladna, an educational organisation for young Palestinians in the town.
Jews and Arabs work along¬side each other, they buy and sell to each other, but mixed marriages are rare and the communities live in different areas, maintaining merely "the minimum [contact] needed in order to have some kind of normality".. In Nazareth, about an] hour's drive from Haifa, this division is visible. There are two cities: crowded and run-down old Nazareth, where the Arab majority lives, and Nazareth II-lit, or upper Nazareth, a hilltop development where the Jewish population (and increasing numbers of well-to-do Arabs) can enjoy landscaped public spaces, low crime and a fancy new shopping centre.
When standing for election last year, the mayor of Nazareth Illit said he would "rather cut off my right arm" than build an Arab school in the district.

'GLASSWALL'
"You think we are living together," Zeidan says, sitting in his office on a bustling shopping street in lower Nazareth. "But if you look closely, you will see that there is a glass wall that separates the two communities."
There's not much enthusiasm for the two-state solution in the Galilee, where the benefit to Palestinians could be relative¬ly limited. The problem, Nashif argues, is the idea of a state built explicitly for one group.
"If tomorrow a Jewish per¬son from New York takes a plane and comes here, he has much more rights than I do," he said. "On the other hand, it's also time for Palestinians to recognise that there are Jewish people here and they probably will stay here, so you cannot have a Palestinian state unless you want to have a tiny space in the West Bank."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM

If you don't read what I put Michael, stop reading it then. It isn't aimed at you anyway. it is about getting people to see reason and to be honest, you have your own little la la land to begin with, and secondly, it isn't worth it as you can be rather nasty at times.

What the fuck my service to the community has to do with anything in this thread is beyond me, unless you are doing a character assassination. I haven't "worked" for over 11 years now, and when I did, visits to Israel and Palestine were frequent diary dates, hence my interest in this awful dog fight between two sets of terrorists.

Keith has shown his true colours on this thread too, and it ain't nice. It appears I have met him. Can't remember but I am sure he didn't come over as odious as he does on these threads. I remember those I wish to avoid in the future. You can't come out with what he does and not expect people to question the person behind such awful things. It's a bit like that other bigot Akenaton earlier today talking about brotherhood and inclusiveness, but not for gay men as they spread disease.

Mudcat certainly seems to be bait for internet weirdos....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

"We're officially through the looking glass here with rockets and United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools in Gaza. For the second time in a week, the United Nations agency disclosed that rockets were discovered in one of their vacant schools. From the U.N.R.W.A. statement:

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets.

This time, though, it was a little bit different. The rockets were being stored in a facility within close proximity of roughly 3,000 displaced Palestinians.

The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.
If you're looking to confirm the oft-repeated Israeli narrative that Hamas and terrorist groups in Gaza endanger Gazans by hiding weapons among the civilian population, then this episode is your smoking missile. Throw in a second incident involving a United Nations agency that is criticized by Israel for its seeming bias and you've got absurdity that would make Samuel Beckett blush.

As the Israeli Foreign Ministry told The Times of Israel:

How many more schools will have to be abused by Hamas missile squads before the international community will intervene. How many times can it turn its head the other way and pretend that it just doesn't see?"

As we noted yesterday, U.N.R.W.A. came under fire last week not only after rockets were discovered in a vacant school, but also as its critics accused the agency of turning the rockets over to "local authorities," which in Hamas-run Gaza, could mean the rockets went right back into circulation."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM

The author of this piece addresses some of your questions Keith and comes up with the correct answer:

'We can say that there is a principle worth fighting and dying for: Civilians cannot be used to make just wars impossible and morality will not be used as a tool to disarm. And once we have that principle, the proportionality calculation changes. The deaths of innocents are not simply outweighed by Israelis' right to live without daily rockets and terrorists tunneling into a kibbutz playground; but by the defense of a world in which terrorists cannot use morality to achieve victory over those who try to fight morally. It is the protection of that world, one in which moral soldiers still have a fighting chance, that justifies Israel's operations against Hamas today. And it is that greater cause that decisively outweighs the terrible toll in innocent life.'

New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

More from The Irish Times for you to ignore, as you have ignored every other erport of what is happeing to the Palestinian people, including the destruction of hospitals, the killing of pateints and the use of horrific anti-personell eapns in civilian areas.
Jim Carroll

IS A WAR CRIME TO TARGET DENSELY PACKED GAZA HOMES
Msyi -Soufan]
Opinion

THE 'GAZA DOCTRINE' OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND DELIBERATELY SPREADING TERROR AMONG CIVILIANS IS ILLEGAL

Once again the Gaza Strip is subject to intense attack from Israeli forces. As of yesterday the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights has documented 593 killed, among them 483 civilians -151 children, 82 women - and 3,197 injured. Among the injured are 926 children and 641 women, although this does not include the figures for the border areas or the Sheajeia area.
Once again it is the civilian population which is targeted, deliberately brought into the eye of the storm.
Everyone in the Gaza Strip is exhausted, worried and terrified. This is as Israel intended. We believe that Israel is deploying the '"Gaza doctrine", a policy with its roots in the Dahiya doctrine first wit¬nessed in the 2006 Lebanon war, and subsequently refined in the Gaza Strip.
The purpose of the Gaza doctrine is straightforward: disproportionate force is used to cause terror among the civilian population to exert political pressure on the authorities in Gaza.
This policy of collective punishment, of deliberately causing terror, is unequivocal¬ly illegal but it is all too real.
This policy is evident in the intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip that preceded the start of the current offensive. For two weeks following the tragic kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank, open areas in the Gaza Strip were subject to intense bombardment. There is no military advantage to be acquired from the targeting of empty fields or desolate places. The purpose was instead to demonstrate Israel's force and presence. We could not sleep. We were constantly shaken by the thundering impact of one-tonne bombs.
However, the most obvious illustration of this policy in practice has been the widespread targeting of the homes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters. These homes are typically targeted in two phases whereby a "warning" is issued to the house in question so that it may be evacuat¬ed. This warning takes the form of either a dud missile (termed "roof knocking") or a phone call. The house is then targeted and destroyed, anywhere from five to 15 minutes later or sometimes even longer.
How is the destruction of these homes justified?
The law of armed conflict states that only combatants and military objectives maybe targeted. Civilians and civilian objects are protected from direct attack.

DESTRUCTION
Military objectives are "those objects which by their nature; location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralisation, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage".
The law of armed conflict permits the targeting of combatants. As such, in principle it is possible that a house may be targeted to target the combatants con-tained within (this attack is still subject to the requirement of proportionality). However, Israel has consistently issued warnings before an attack is launched, ensuring that no combatants are present.
The other legal possibility is that a home may also be targeted if it is being used to "make an effective contribution to military action"; ie if it is being used to store weapons or as a base from which attacks are launched. However, in the overwhelming majority of cases documented by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights we have not found evidence that homes have been used to either store weapons (demonstrated by secondary explosions) or as a base from which to launch attacks (determined through interviews with neighbours and witnesses).
If a home does not satisfy these criteria then it is not a military objective and cannot be attacked.
A home cannot qualify as a military objective just because it is owned by a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
Significantly, the law of armed conflict clearly states that "in case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used".

NO MILITARY NECESSITY
Simply put, there is no military necessity justifying the destruction of these homes: it is straightforwardly illegal to target civilian objects.
In fact it is a war crime. Issuing a warning does not change this fact: it remains illegal to attack a home in the absence of military necessity.
The only conclusion we can draw is that these are punitive house demolitions, and it is significant that Israel has resumed its policy of punitive house demolitions in the West Bank in recent weeks.
This is why we are forced to conclude that Israel has revitalised the Dahiya doctrine, and refined it for use in Gaza.
If the objective is to cause terror it is working. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. These homes that are targeted are not isolated. They are in the middle of densely populated residential areas. Even if.one home is targeted, many others will inevitably be affected. This is why the rate of civilian casualties is so high.
The reason is simple: you cannot drop a one-tonne bomb in a residential area without causing catastrophic damage to any civilians or civilian objects nearby.
In the face of this reality the civilians of Gaza are left without protection. We want to be treated as equals. We want our rights to be respected and protected. We ask that international law be applied equally to Israel and Palestine, to Israelis and Palestinians. The rule of international law must be respected, and all those responsible for violations must be held to account. We demand the rule of law.
Raji Sourani is director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza. http://www, pchrgaza.org/porta L/en/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM

Should it not be remembered at all times in this dispute, BTW?, that, after Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2005

(to the disadvantage, it may be recalled, of a considerable demographic from among their own poullation whom they had then to compensate and resettle),

they cleared the way for free elections to be held; and the populace proceeded freely to elect Hamas.

This might be thought an oversimplification of a complex situation [see Wikipedia article on Gaza Strip]; but it is IMO a substantially accurate statement of what, in the first place, brought about the present lamentable situation.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM

Your two final questions have been answered over and over again
The Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves
Hamas is a far less threat to world peace and security as are the serial thugs and mass murderers ruling Israel at the present time, particularly as the latter has nuclear capability
It is a common practice of yours to justify extremism and war cimes and abuses by pointing out somebody "worse".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

Nobody has ever claimed otherwise - it is a war crime to slaughter hundreds of combatant in retaliation for those rockets

Thank you for those straight answers Jim.
Common ground.

How about my final 2 questions.

Does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals, or do they lose that right because of the further war crime of siting among civilians?

If Hamas is allowed to gain military advantage by committing war crimes, does it set a dangerous precedent for future conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM

"Does anyone deny that it was wrong to fire rockets at Israel?
Does anyone support Hamas in committing that unequivocal war crime?
If not, does anyone deny Israel the right to strike back at those war criminals"
Nobody has ever claimed otherwise - it is a war crime to slaughter hundreds of combatant in retaliation for those rockets - but the killing began as an act of revenge for the kidnapping of the three Israeli boys anyway - all the earlier victims were non combatants, again, mainly children.
Now, the Israelis are indiscriminately slaughtering the Gazan population - using them as hostages in order (they claim) to stop virtually ineffective rocket attacks.
You are supporting this illegal and inhuman slaughter and you have always supported such slaughter - that is the type of individual you are.
Stop wingeing about being misunderstood - you are an incredibly unpleasant and inhuman individual - live with it.
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times.
NO SAFE PLACE FOR CIVILIANS' IN DENSELY POPULATED ENCLAVES
Aid agencies
Palestinian civilians in densely populated Gaza have no place to hide from Israel's military offensive and children are paying the heaviest price, the United Nations said yesterday.
Israeli military pounded targets across the Gaza Strip, saying no ceasefire was near as US and UN diplomats pursued talks on halting fighting that has claimed more than 600 lives as the conflict entered its third week. "There is literally no safe place for civilians," Jens Laerke, spokesman for the UN office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, told a news briefing in Geneva.
The death toll is rising in the coastal enclave which has an estimated 4,500 people per square kilometre, he said. The priority for aid agencies was protecting civilians and evacuating and treating the wound¬ed.
FUNDING APPEAL
Nearly 500 homes have been destroyed by Israeli air strikes and 100,000 people have sought shelter in schools of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), where they need food, wa¬ter and mattresses, he said.
"This number continues to in¬crease by the hour," UNRWA said in a statement yesterday, raising its emergency funding appeal to $115 million (€85 million) from $60 million.
Israel began air strikes on the coastal strip on July 8th, say¬ing it wanted to halt missile fire out of Gaza by Hamas militants, and launched a ground offensive last Thursday.
"The ongoing ground incursion, begun July 18th, has great¬ly accelerated the casualty rate over the past two days, as well as the numbers of displaced families," the World Health Organisation said in a statement. Twenty-nine Israelis, 27 of them soldiers, have died. But the overwhelming majority of people killed so far in the conflict are Palestinians, including 121 Gazan children, said Juliette Touma of the UN Children's Fund (Unicef). More than 900 Palestinian children are also reported to have been injured, according to Unicef.
'TRAUMA'
"According to an assessment by aid workers on the ground at least 107,000 children need psycho-social support for the trau¬ma they are experiencing such as death, injury or loss of their homes," Mr Laerke said.
More than 1.2 million of the 1,8 million people in the enclave have no water or only limited access to water as power net¬works have been damaged or lack fuel for generators, he said.
"In addition, we do have re¬ports of sewage flooding which is a threat to public health," Mr Laerke said.
The UN's World Food Programme has distributed emergency food rations and food vouchers to more than 90,000 people so far, spokeswoman Elisabeth Byrs said. "Ready-to-eat food stocks are running low in Gaza given the conflict has lasted two weeks and the needs are increasing."
Food will be bought locally and also airlifted from Dubai.
The WHO said 18 health facilities in Gaza have been dam¬aged, including three hospitals.
An Israeli tank shell hit the Al- Aqsa hospital in the central Gaza Strip on Monday, killing four people and wounding 16, the health ministry said. - (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:26 AM

Didn't read what he said, Keith, because I make it a principle not to read any of his posts: but that's the way that mathering little mother [in the American sense] operates. Best do as I do and pretend so far as possible that the vulgar little former·chairman·of·an·NHS·Trust and distinguished·person·honoured·by·HMQ [can you believe? but he never tires of reminding us!] doesn't exist. So far as I am concerned, solipsistically he doesn't.

~M~