BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 12:38 PM

Greg's question is answered.

Perhaps in your idiosyncratic world, FW, but not in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM

Palestinian spokesman Ahmad Assaf rips the veil off of Hamas' thuggery:

"In the past seven years Hamas has destroyed Gaza."

"Who are you trying to fool? Do you think people are that stupid! Do you think they are blind?!"

He obviously doesn't read Mudcat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tssXnzdHwRc

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 04:00 AM

As a watchword, I make no apology for quoting yet again the incomparable Jane Austen, one of whose wonderfully principled & strong-minded characters, Elinor Dashwood in Sense & Sensibility made no reply to a fool who was on at her, "as she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition."

That's what those two and their like don't deserve indeed. Couldn't have put it any better myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

"I'm in wonderment that anyone is taking Greg F. or Muscat seriously in this latest discussion." John Sunset

.,,.

As I think you know, John, I have solved the problem, & vastly increased my contentment & existential satisfaction, by simply not reading any posts from either of those two nasty-minded fools. It's easy; just need to be a bit strong-minded -- much easier than giving up smoking was, 40 years ago. So I really don't know what they are on about, regarding me or anything else. Poor old Musky-buttox might still be going on with his interminable oh-so-hilarious cracks about my nurse & my cooking sherry or whevs; or he might just have got the message that, whoever is reading such facetious pathetic fatuities, it isn't me, and given up on them.

But the really delightful thing, from my POV, is that I just don't know; and care even less. A blissful state of incognisance and insouciance, believe me. If there is anyone on this forum who really gets on your tits, my advice is simply to boycott their posts ···

··· & game over!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

Greg's question is answered.
However much you squirm and obfuscate, the answer is clear.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:39 AM

John. Why should I take a weird foreigner seriously for that matter?

Keith. Per capita is how you state it, correct. Per capita when applied must have a weighting to make it relevant to the index. Try Orwell's assertion that some pigs are more equal than others for starters. Then look at how Israel' version of ONS do it for just about every situation.

Not that reality ever stopped your staunch assertion that if you read it somewhere everyone else is wrong....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:52 AM

Musket, the weighting is simple.
The amount per person.
That is what per capita means.
Greg, it was a typical year so representative of ANY period.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Same old same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 08:08 PM

So I guess you can't read either, eh John? Or are you just taking the mickey?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM

I'm in wonderment that anyone is taking Greg F. or Muscat seriously in this latest discussion.

Keith provided a source for comparing aid to Palestine and Israel. If Greg F. does not agree with that source, or finds it does cover the area he is writing about, then it is incumbent on him to find a source that does, and present it. It is not up to Keith to look for other sources for Greg F. which he [GF] will likely still not approve of.

I don't know Keith, his educational background, nor what he does/did for a living. Muscat evidently thinks he is/was a statistical analyst. It seems to me that this is just a way of trying to refute that document by overburdening the presenter. Sort of like paying a largish debt with quarters (US 25 cent coin) so that the lender must waste time counting thousands of coins.

Get real guys!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:15 PM

The same old reading comprehension problem raises its head again, FW.

The question was not "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel".

The question To T-Bird was: "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period? [emphasis added as an aid to morons and their fellow travellers]

Also, why don't you let T-Bird answer for himself instead of smearing your usual shite all over this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:07 PM

As you have confidence in the per capita figure Keith, perhaps you could explain what the weighting is and how this affects your confidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:30 PM

There was nothing special or different about that year.
Unless you know better Greg?
Tell us.

Per capita is a standard way of making comparisons.
No evidence needed because everyone except you knows that Greg.

It does answer the your question "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" Greg.
You have both amounts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

That was a typical year so a good indicator of the total.

Your evidence that it was a "typical year" is... what? Your opinion?

Per capita is a fair means of making a comparison.

That may be your opinion, but that's all it is. T-Bird was not talking "per capita" or a single year.

AND that still doesn't answer the question.

The total figures are there if you prefer.

Yes they are, BUT that still doesn't answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:04 PM

That was a typical year so a good indicator of the total.
Per capita is a fair means of making a comparison.
The total figures are there if you prefer.

Are you going to produce anything at all Greg?
Of course not.
Just abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM

Sigh. For the reading and comprehension challenged FWs:

** That's only statistics for a single year, not the total that T-bird is talking about.

** T-Bird wasn't talking aid "per capita" and neither am I.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:47 PM

Greg, does my answer not suffice?
"So, the Palestinian Territories (population 4.043 million), receive more economic aid per capita from the world than military aid received by Israel, population 7.7 million, from the U.S."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM

Actually I do have one that satisfies me.

That's unfortunate, since that post does not answer the question.

...implant an equivalence...

Funny you don't get on your high horse when FW Keith & BooBad do this; its their stock & trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM

Actually I do have one that satisfies me. You can read it, too, at 10:44AM today.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 01:22 PM

"to try to implant an equivalence"

BINGO JotSC.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 12:42 PM

I'm entirely serious, John. Do you have the answer for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 11:39 AM

"So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?"

This is an example of a question that is both demeaning and unserious.
It is put out there to try to implant an equivalence between Palestinian and Israeli aid hoping that no one will actually care to consider it.

I hope Greg F. is not a lawyer. The first rule is never to ask a question one doesn't know the answer to--or in this case probably knows the answer to and hopes to skate on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 10:44 AM

So, the Palestinian Territories received 88.8% of the total (UK) regional aid. While (Northern) Sudan received absolutely nothing. (Southern Sudan is listed separately in the Africa region)

Other nations more impoverished in the region than the West Bank and Gaza, according to the CIA fact book, which received no aid include Yemen and Chad.

More broadly, looking at the West Bank alone, The Palestinian Authority's Human Development Index – a measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standards - is 97th out of 193 countries in the world, which places them ahead of Egypt, Syria and Morocco.

And, of course, this doesn't include additional international aid which the Palestinians receive annually.

Here are the top ten donors, listed in U.S. dollars:

U.S.: $667 million

EU: $600 million

UNRWA: $476 million

Arab countries combined: $110 million

Norway: $108 million

Spain: $101 million

Germany $89 million

UK: $82 million

France: $77 million

Sweden $69 million

Total: Over $2.3 billion

In comparison, in 2009, Israel received less than $2.38 billion (all in military aid), all of which was from the U.S.

So, the Palestinian Territories (population 4.043 million), receive more economic aid per capita from the world than military aid received by Israel, population 7.7 million, from the U.S.

Finally, it's important to note that Israel is pro-West, and a strong U.S. ally, while the Palestinians are, based on annual public opinion polls, (even under the Obama Administration) overwhelmingly anti-American.

These facts would seem, at the very least, worth noting in the context of the continuing drum beat of accusations by anti-Zionists regarding U.S. aid to Israel.

Source CIA Factbook.
http://cifwatch.com/2011/10/05/guardian-graph-on-uk-foreign-aid-shows-palestinians-receive-bulk-of-funding-sudan-received-nothin

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:48 AM

So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:07 AM

In terms of aid the "Palestinians" have been given four times as much as the total aid given under the Marshal Plan which rebuilt a Europe ravished by five years of total all out war - What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:44 PM

My comment needed no proof as it was not stated as a fact, but as an opinion.

Yup. An ostensibly UNSUBSTANTIATED & apparently UNINFORMED opinion, i.e. bullshit.

accidentally hit submit

Yeah, right.

you may expect that answer from me every time I deem your comment or your response to mine as un-serious as was your asking for proof.

Knock yourself out. But I was deadly serious about asking for proof:
of which you offer none. See 22 Jun 14 - 12:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:08 PM

Dear GregF., you may expect that answer from me every time I deem your comment or your response to mine as un-serious as was your asking for proof. My comment needed no proof as it was not stated as a fact, but as an opinion. Also as one who chastised me to look for context, you took mine out of context by not quoting the entire sentence. Often when you are presented with facts, you don't counter them with other facts; you dismiss them as being from a source you don't like (and, no, I am not going to research your posts to find specific instances), or you demean person providing the facts. If you disagree with my opinion of Jews Moslem governments, I invite you to show me how that opinion is wrong...it might be, but I doubt it.
You and others who post like you may expect that response in the future.

Finally, I did not mean to post that order to you. I was still groggy from a nap when I read your post. I actually wrote F.O. with the intention of erasing it, just wanting to get it out of my system. I accidentally hit submit, and could not get it back. Perhaps subliminally it was not so accidental, and I have decided to stand by that post.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 12:22 PM

Query: And you have evidence to prove this, I suppose?

Ans: Greg, F.O.

Translation: No evidence, its bullshit.

Another Q.E.D., it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 08:47 AM

As I understand it, many peace proposals that were made to Israel by Palestinian leaders were summarily rejected. As to the old bromide about "destroying Israel", this is just mythology.
What was attempting to be destroyed was the monolithic occupation and the unacceptable conditions given by Israel to pacify Palestinians.

Again, the conflict between Islam and Judaism plays a major role here.

The proof that honest brokerage of peaceful terms is nullified is the continued use of violence by Israel and the disproportionate reaction by the poor Palestinians.

Rock throwing is not comparable to phosphor bombs or home demolition by bulldozers

As evidenced by the continued housing developments, Israel would like to dominate any Palestinian attempt at autonomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:32 PM

Greg, F.O.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM

What should I hold them accountable for, Greg?

Q.E.D., Boo -

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:15 PM

the twelve Knesset members are far more, both actually or proportionately, than Jews in the whole of the Moslem worlds governing bodies.

And you have evidence to prove this, I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:27 PM

What should I hold them accountable for, Greg? For the fact that the Palestinians have refused every offer of a state by the Israelis and have never ever given a counter-offer? Let's go over them shall we.

They refused a state in 1947. They tried to destroy Israel in 1967 (before the so-called occupation), and then right after the war issued the three nos; no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it. They went to war again in 1973. Then, they turned down a state in 2000 at Camp David. Even the Saudi foreign minister was shocked that Arafat turned down the offer. Then, they turned down an offer in 2001, and in 2008 they didn`t even answer Olmert`s offer for a state.

So is that what I should hold them accountable for Greg? For the intransigence of the Palestinian so-called leadership? Who keep their citizens in refugee camps for decades and use them as pawns to play on Jew hatred to get billions in aid with which to enrich themselves and their cronies and to buy weapons and rockets with which to attack Israeli citizens. No Greg, I hold the so-called Palestinian "leadership" accountable for the plight of the Palestinian people, YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:15 PM

GregF-
"...but he was only being ironic and sarcastic. I guess I'll have to read between the lines... "quoting moi
"It might help, John, if you also looked up "context".

You know my friend, posting on the internet is not like having a conversation. Context is difficult, especially when writing for others a one sentence post. One cannot 'hear' your tone of voice; one cannot see the twinkle in your baby blues that you're having your way with them; nor can one see your hooded eyes showing anger or contempt. And one cannot see your sneer or subtle smile as you write. The use of emoticons usually mean the opposite of what they seem to imply, in my expeerience.

However, you have admitted to the use of irony and sarcasm, and that now becomes my default reading of your posts. It is up to you to convince me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 04:36 PM

"Does 10% of Arabs sound proportionate?"
"...12 Arabs in the Knesset is a laughably insignificant basis for your argument."
both GuestTroubador

As I do not worship at the Mammon of Proportionality, which you seem to do, your comments, above, carry no weight with me. Almost certainly the twelve Knesset members are far more, both actually or proportionately, than Jews in the whole of the Moslem worlds governing bodies.

Proportionality as a mantra is about sixty years old...at least here in the US. It has done far more damage than good, here, both civilly and politically. Probably elsewhere as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 01:08 PM

But if the Palestinians are treated as children, never held accountable...

Amusing, Boo, since you never hold the Israeli government accountable....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 11:40 AM

Bobad's link is to today's Daily Telegraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 11:21 AM

The jubilant reaction of many Palestinians to the kidnapping of three Israeli teenage boys has been met in the West with a bit of a shrug. The official daily PA newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida has published cartoons mocking the three students and celebrating their capture. The Fatah Facebook page featured a cartoon of three rats dangling from a line. Sweets have been handed out on the streets (a traditional gesture of joy and celebration). Many children have been photographed by their parents, holding up three fingers and smiling. An internet campaign gathers pace and "popular support for the abduction has continued to proliferate on Palestinian social media" according to the journalist Elhanan Miller. Hamas, of course, is exultant. Yes, Abu Mazen has condemned the kidnap and there have been some brave Palestinian voices raised in defence of the three youngsters, but their voices are isolated; Palestinians calling for the return of the three students have been threatened.

Of course, Israel has to compromise and divide the land, making possible a Palestinian state. But if the Palestinians are treated as children, never held accountable for cultivating a culture of hate, then they will never make their own excruciating compromises for peace. And without those compromises – in a Middle East departing further from the norms of human behaviour by the day – Israel will not take risks for peace. Nor should it.

It's time to stop infantilising the Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

The Israeli legal system is based in common law.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:52 AM

".... on his side of the Atlantic, the first question a doctor asks is "Who's paying, and how"?"

Not in my country, mate!

So why are you quoting US and Texas law in defence of your argument, when you know that what I said DOES apply in the US, where they do enough to keep you alive before asking how you'll pay, then pursue you for the cost of keeping you alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:27 AM

Israel has ghettoised its Palestinian citizens

How so Troubadour?
They have full citizenship rights and can go where they please.

Perhaps you are thinking of West Bank where the Palestinians oppose immigration from any other race, especially Jews.

Or maybe Gaza where IDF forced Jewish settlers out at gunpoint and now the Arab people have it all and would kill any Jew found there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:23 AM

"Not in my country, mate!"
In Israel though - it's called "medical tourism"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:52 AM

".... on his side of the Atlantic, the first question a doctor asks is "Who's paying, and how"?"

Not in my country, mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM

"But I don't expect that fits in with the bigotry and partisan balls you keep spewing out on this thread. Rather ugly really."

Musket, you have to make allowances for the fact that on his side of the Atlantic, the first question a doctor asks is "Who's paying, and how"?

Different world mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM

"Mr. F, you are entitled to all the biased opinions you care to spew. You may not, however, aver as the truth a lie. As of 2011, the Israeli
Knesset had 12 Arab members, of varying religions and backgrounds, out of a total membership of 120--10%!"

John on the Sunshine Coast (lightyears away from the plight of 4 million Palestinians crammed into two open prisons within the boundaries of Israel.

Within those boundaries there are also 6 million Israelis.

Does 10% of Arabs sound proportionate?

Because to me, and many others, the way in which Israel has ghettoised its Palestinian citizens indicates no intention to resolve the situation on either a one, or a two state solution, but rather the desire to dominate and eventually drive out the whole lot by making their lives a living hell.

Alongside of that, 12 Arabs in the Knesset is a laughably insignificant basis for your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM

"I don't propose to read any more Greg F posts at all in the future"
"And if you make any more statements I disagree with, I'll close my eyes and hold my breath and scweam and scweam and scweam....."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:25 AM

...but he was only being ironic and sarcastic. I guess I'll have to read between the lines...

It might help, John, if you also looked up "context".



...I don't propose to read any more Greg F posts at all in the future. - ~M~

I'm heartbroken. Can I hold you to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:22 AM

"Breaking the Silence represents only an insignificant minority of IDF veterans (less than 1,000). It is not an objective human rights organisation. It is a political organisation devoted to tarnishing the defence Forces and, by extension, the Israeli state.
"Breaking the Silence are 'useful idiots' allowing themselves to be manipulated by the international boycott"

Less than a thousand? The ones that have the guts or the humanity to speak out!

The last sentence? Mandy Rice-Davies!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 09:06 AM

Musket.

Correct.

Yes I was, as usual.

As usual, said to contradict what I said. Which it doesn't.

Yes it does, because you were wrong and I was "correct."
As usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:09 AM

So Musket, from what I can tell you are using the term "enemy" in the context of a declared war, that is a unique situation which is is not relevant to this discussion. As far as I know Israel is not at war with the Palestinian National Authority.

You also stated that doctors are obliged to treat in an emergency, this is not true.

The Israeli doctors were under no obligation to provide treatment to Abbas' wife - it was an act of benevolence. You are unable to accept that Israelis are capable of benevolence because you have demonized them in your mind - that is sad.