BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:17 PM

Why They Fight: Hamas' Too Little Known Fascist Charter

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:49 PM

Just an observation -- Can we have less of the patronising & belittling "Little Booboo", please, Little Jimbo?

Where have your manners gone? & it's a poor substitute for rational argument.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:27 PM

"YOUR friends are killing Jews BEFORE there was even a Gaza attack."
you really don't get it do you - Antisemitism has always been with us - shits like you blaming Jews for Israeli atrocities and war crimes just keep it alive.
Fy family were fighting fascism on the streets of Liverpool, only to be left with shits like you pissing on the memory of six million dead.
Who knows, maybe Israel will listen to your suggestion that "all Muslims are less than human" and they should "push on in Gaza and either drive them into the desert or wipe out the ones who won't go".
Do you really believe that statements like that are representative of the Jewish people?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:25 PM

"the brains or sense that God gave slime molds,"


So THAT'S why Greggie is so jealous of slime molds!

He missed out, and wants to be up there with those slime molds.

Too bad he has not yet been successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:57 PM

Blog was by

"The former Senior Producer of CNN's Jerusalem bureau for twenty plus years, Izzy Lemberg is a veteran international television news producer and recipient of the prestigious Edward R. Murrow award. "


I think HE has more right to comment on journalism than you or any of the other stooges do.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM

According to Hamas. Greggie boy?

Oh, Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:39 PM

According to CAMERA. Boo?

Oh, Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:56 PM

Jimmy boy,

"March 2012 a shooting spree in the south of France targeting French soldiers and Jewish students left seven people dead, including three schoolchildren and a young rabbi. "


NOTE THE DATE.

YOUR friends are killing Jews BEFORE there was even a Gaza attack.

You must be SO proud of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM

I have been a journalist for a quarter of a century. I have covered terrorism both in Israel and internationally. I reported on the war in the Balkans, on upheavals in Russia since the fall of the Communism, on peace negotiations between Israel, the Palestinians and the Syrians. I have covered the synagogue bombings in Istanbul and I covered the hotel bombing in Taba, Egypt in 2004.

In the early days of what looks like a ceasefire that may hold in Israel, and in the days before war crime charges will most certainly be filed against Israel, I am more worried than ever that my profession has been compromised; some would even say that journalism is dead.

It was during the reporting on the Second Intifada in Israel that I began to notice an erosion of the basic tenets of journalism. Journalists became vehicles for the Palestinian narrative of injustice rather than simply impartial observers of a complex conflict.

In the current war, international media coverage makes it appear to viewers as if every morning Israelis wake up and ask ourselves – how many Palestinian children shall we kill today? Colonel Richard Kemp, the former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, put it this way:

    To suggest that military incompetence is the only explanation for civilian deaths other than deliberate mass murder reveals a breathtaking but unsurprising ignorance of the realities of combat.

    Although rarely allowed to complete so much as a single sentence, Israeli attempts to explain IDF targeting policies are inevitably dismissed as laughable fabrication.

In my view, there has been no real reporting in this conflict. While everybody agrees that there are Palestinian civilian casualties – the ratio of 70 to 80 percent remained unchanged during the month long war — how is this possible? Where are the Hamas militant casualties?

Michael J. Totten writes compellingly of inflated and inaccurate numbers in The World Affairs Journal.

    Analyses of the casualties listed in the daily reports published by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based organization operating under Hamas rule, indicate that young males ages 17 to 30 make up a large portion of the fatalities, and a particularly noticeable spike occurs between males ages 21 to 27, a pattern consistent with the age distribution typically found among combatants and military conscripts.

In the international media however, we have not seen photos of these men, many of whom are likely Hamas militants, just countless pictures of Palestinian children.

Media reporting on European views of the crisis in Gaza are complex and seen almost solely through media bias and exploitation of previously held ideas about underdogs, anti-Semitism and emotion versus reason.

If there is a crisis in journalism, the Arab-Israeli highlights the crisis as never before.

Former Israeli Ambassador to the US Michael Oren was interviewed on CNN after Ron Dermer, the current Israeli Ambassador to the US complained that CNN's coverage was focused on pictures of Palestinian children, while not mentioning the UN school that housed rockets.

As CNN asked Oren about his views on media bias, his picture was minimized while the entire screen was filled with pictures of Palestinian children – from the same loop we had already seen. Even an after-the-fact interview to discuss media bias…contained media bias. The images shown have an obvious and not so subliminal affect on viewers. See the interview here, queued up to the section to which I refer:

According to the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, in an L.A. Times slideshow of more than 75 photographs from the conflict, there's not a single image of a Hamas fighter.

Again, according to Richard Kemp:

    …the Palestinian body count is vital to Hamas's propaganda war that aims to bring international pressure on Israel and incite anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic hatred around the world.

Either journalists are no longer observing as impartially as possible or they are censoring themselves — or even being censored. In any case, the end result is that journalists, wittingly or unwittingly are serving Hamas's propagandist aims. This is not journalism.

Is Journalism Dead?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM

"Across Europe, the conflict in Gaza is generating a broader backlash against Jews, as threats, hate speech and even violent attacks proliferate in several countries."
See what happens when you blame Israeli terrorism on the Jewish people
"Another asshole who thinks that criticism of the Israeli government is "anti-Semitism""
Acttually Greg, may not have read it properly, but she appears to make a number of interesting points - read her CV
Little Booboo may have come up with something interesting when he isn't drawing his support from 'White Supremist', 'Muslim Watch' and 'Gatestone'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:21 PM

More of what the stooges must think of as "fun and games".

"n March 2012 a shooting spree in the south of France targeting French soldiers and Jewish students left seven people dead, including three schoolchildren and a young rabbi. "

Of course Greggie wants to see a higher body count to really get his rocks off.



FRANCE'S leaders are increasingly worried about the apparent rise of anti-Semitism in their country. Yesterday afternoon François Hollande, the president, called an urgent meeting of Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Buddhist leaders to discuss the outbreak of anti-Jewish violence over the weekend when demonstrators against Israel's actions in Gaza ran wild.

On a hot Saturday in the predominantly Muslim neighbourhood of Barbès, not far from the Gare du Nord, a big railway station in Paris, a crowd that swelled to around 3,000 ignored an official ban on demonstrating. They set fire to an Israeli flag, bashed in shops and threw stones at serried ranks of riot police, 15 of whom retired wounded.

On Sunday afternoon the violence spilled over into Sarcelles, a suburb with a large Sephardic Jewish population. A Molotov cocktail was launched at the main synagogue and a kosher shop was burnt down. Shop windows were smashed; several stores were looted; flames flared fitfully. Tear gas hung heavy in the air as riot police scattered the thugs, firing rubber bullets. Four policemen ended up in hospital. Permitted pro-Palestinian demonstrations elsewhere passed off peacefully, prompting some to say that banning the demonstrations in Paris was provocative as well as contravening the right to free speech. But a week earlier several Paris synagogues had been targeted by protesters shouting "Death to the Jews".

After the meeting with the president yesterday, Joël Mergui, president of the Jewish Central Consistory of France, paused for a moment on the steps of the Elysée palace to shake hands with Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris. But fixing the toxic mix of economic marginalisaton and growing radicalisation among many Muslims that provides the backdrop to such episodes will take more than a handshake.

In March 2012 a shooting spree in the south of France targeting French soldiers and Jewish students left seven people dead, including three schoolchildren and a young rabbi. The perpetrator, Mohammed Merah, a French criminal of Algerian descent, claimed connections with al-Qaeda. On May 24th of this year, four people were shot dead in the Jewish Museum of Belgium. Mehdi Nemmouche, a Frenchman of Algerian origin who is believed to have fought with Islamist rebels in Syria, was arrested for the crime, which he denies committing. Later that evening, two Jews in traditional dress coming out of the synagogue in Créteil, near Paris, were attacked by thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:19 PM

Bullshot, you really don't have the brains or sense that God gave slime molds, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:39 PM

But I should KNOW that Greggie thinks " throwing firebombs at the city's new synagogue" is just good old fun.

Next he will get out the white sheets and hemp rope, and find a tree, just to have fun with someone who is " Black, and a Democrat".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:31 PM

BERLIN — Across Europe, the conflict in Gaza is generating a broader backlash against Jews, as threats, hate speech and even violent attacks proliferate in several countries.

Most surprising perhaps, a wave of incidents has washed over Germany, where atonement for the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes is a bedrock of the modern society. A commitment to the right of Israel to exist is ironclad. Plaques and memorials across the country exhort, "Never Again." Children are taught starting in elementary school that their country's Nazi history must never be repeated. Even so, academics say the recent episodes may reflect a rising climate of anti-Semitism that they had observed before the strife over Gaza.

This week, the police in the western city of Wuppertal detained two young men on suspicion of throwing firebombs at the city's new synagogue; the attack early Tuesday caused no injuries. In Frankfurt on Thursday, the police said, a beer bottle was thrown through a window at the home of a prominent critic of anti-Semitism. She heard an anti-Jewish slur after going to the balcony to confront her assailant, The Frankfurter Rundschau reported. An anonymous caller to a rabbi threatened last week to kill 30 Frankfurt Jews if the caller's family in Gaza was harmed, the police said.

The string of incidents comes after Chancellor Angela Merkel condemned anti-Semitic chants from pro-Palestinian demonstrators and President Joachim Gauck called on Germans to "raise their voices if there is a new anti-Semitism being strutted on the street."

But even as the police have clamped down on demonstrators, banning slogans that target Jews instead of Israeli policies, a spike in violence has spread fear among Jews, not only in Germany but also in other European countries.

More Jews have begun leaving France in recent months, following anti-Semitism that has spilled onto the streets since the start of the Gaza conflict almost a month ago. While most of the pro-Palestinian demonstrations have been peaceful, a small number of violent protesters, many of them young Arab men, has targeted Jewish businesses and synagogues.

French authorities have strongly condemned the violence and, citing public-safety concerns, have refused to authorize a small number of pro-Palestinian demonstrations. Others have spoken of a need to counter anti-Semitism among certain segments of the country's Muslim youth.

Prime Minister Manuel Valls spoke last week of a "new," "normalized" anti-Semitism. "It blends the Palestinian cause, jihadism, the detestation of Israel and the hatred of France and its values," he told the National Assembly.

Even in historically tolerant Italy, anti-Semitic smears have appeared on the streets of Rome. Jewish shop windows in several neighborhoods were defaced this week with swastikas and tags reading "Torch the synagogues" and "Jews your end is near." Police suspect that right-wing extremists, possibly along with pro-Palestinian activists, carried out the acts.

Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
Riccardo Di Segni, the chief rabbi of Rome, said he believed that the threats were linked to tensions in the Middle East. "There is cyclically a common thread running between the dramatic tensions in the Middle East and the increase of anti-Semitic episodes," he said.

In Austria, a preseason soccer match between the Israeli team Maccabi Haifa and Germany's Paderborn was moved to a more secure location last weekend after a group of youths bearing Palestinian and Turkish flags stormed the field and attacked players during a previous match.

Prominent newspapers, politicians and popular stars in Austria and Germany have responded to the anti-Jewish outburst with a campaign called "Raise Your Voice," in support of their countries' Jewish communities. But Samuel Salzborn, a professor of political science at Göttingen University, does not believe that the effort has shifted public opinion.

"The official line of the German government is happily, clearly against anti-Semitism, but that is resulting in far too little," Mr. Salzborn said. "There is a startling indifference in the German public to the current display of anti-Semitism."

To many of the more than 100,000 Jews in Germany, the outburst of anti-Semitism since the conflict flared in Gaza has a troubling undertone and has stirred especially painful memories. The Central Council of Jews in Germany has received hundreds of calls from members asking whether they should pack their suitcases and leave the country.

"I have not heard that for many years," said Dieter Graumann, the council president. "When calls for Jews to be gassed, burned and murdered are bawled on the streets of Germany, that no longer has anything to do with Israel's politics and Gaza. It is the most abhorrent form of anti-Semitism."

Academics who study anti-Semitism say the acceptance of disparaging remarks about Jews has become increasingly common in the educated middle class over the past two decades. Especially on social media, where hashtags such as #HitlerWasRight have appeared, there has been a significant jump in slurs against Jews.

Monika Schwarz-Friesel, a cognitive scientist at Technical University, has spent 10 years tracking anti-Semitic comments from educated Germans in letters to editors, in Internet chat rooms and on social media. She said such comments in public forums had served as kindling for the most recent outbreak.

"Violence always starts in the mind," Ms. Schwarz-Friesel said. "Attacks like that on the synagogue in Wuppertal are not just pulled out of thin air."

Carola Melchert-Arlt, an elementary school principal in Berlin and mother of three, said she felt afraid for the first time in her decades of living in Germany. She said her mother had asked her to stop wearing a Star of David, a family heirloom from her grandmother's bat mitzvah, around her neck.

Friends have taken down their mezuzas, Ms. Melchert-Arlt said, and she no longer stifles a smile when a fellow Jew wonders if they are really welcome in Germany.

"We have all always felt the latent anti-Semitism here," Ms. Melchert-Arlt said. "But what we have experienced in recent weeks and days, not only in Germany but across Europe, is a prevailing mood of outward anti-Jewish sentiment in the streets."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:26 PM

I'm disgusted by the Jew-hatred that some Europeans have shown in their protests against Israel

Another asshole who thinks that criticism of the Israeli government is "anti-Semitism". Who cares.

Next Boo will be flogging the Nazi nonsense again.

Also, who cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 11:00 AM

"I'm disgusted by the Jew-hatred that some Europeans have shown in their protests against Israel"
ISRAEL'S USE OF ANTISEMITISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 10:35 AM

"I'm disgusted by the Jew-hatred that some Europeans have shown in their protests against Israel. It's prompted me to reflect on a moment when I lacked the moral courage to speak up. In this spirit, I'm posting a video that's never been shown before. I welcome your comments."

Irshad Manji: "I knew it was wrong, and I said nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:53 AM

"They are shameful, despicable animals!"
Aren't they just?
Mosques attacked in Gaza:
*118 mosques have been shelled, of which 81 were partially damaged while 37 were fully destroyed".
NOT TO MENTION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

Hamas terrorists desecrating and disrespecting Churches by firing rockets from them. They are shameful, despicable animals!

Gaza Bishop: Hamas Used Church to Fire Rockets

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:03 AM

"It should have read as asking what point he was making UP"
Much appreciated Muskie
Jim Carroll
..,

Yes. teehee. LoL.

But it was not, as that egregious Mr Mather claimed, a 'grammatical' point in any sense. He should go back to the dictionary which I daresay he has stashed away somewhere & check precisely what 'grammar' is.

& before he objects to my reading his posts again, I will reiterate that that is a matter for me, not for his pathetic unsolicited little yay-or-nays. He really is a pompous, prescriptive, foolish, foulmouthed fellow, innit!

Adieu -- for the nonce

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:11 AM

Hamas' war strategy works like this:

- Episodically attack Israel's civilians in such as way as to provoke a counter-attack.

- Hide behind Palestinian civilians (preferably in crowded neighborhoods, schools, and hospitals), while encouraging them, even forcing them, to stay, guaranteeing that the return fire wounds or kills civilians and damages civilian structures.

- Encourage the Western news media to play up the civilian suffering, play down Hamas' role in it, and accuse Israel.

- Conjure a firestorm of outrage around the world that eventually pressures Israel into desisting from counteroffensive measures.

- Survive to reap the propaganda victory and prepare the next round of hostilities.

- Repeat, with each exchange hurting Israel more, and each round of international news coverage further savaging the Jewish State's international reputation.

No matter what the Israeli response, the Hamas strategy is win-win. If the Israelis abort a strike to avoid civilian casualties (as they often do), then Hamas is spared the blow; if an Israeli strike causes civilian casualties, Hamas has dead babies to parade before the cameras. And eventually, the bloodletting will get so bad, the pictures so damning, that Israel will stop. Hamas' endgame goals, at least at this stage of its asymmetrical war, are actually threefold: tie Israel down with constraints on its use of power, delegitimize and demonize it in the eyes of the world, and stir an aggressive "Muslim Street" in the West, where genocidal chants can lead to pogroms against the Jews worldwide.

This time, however, this "dead baby" strategy, despite a pedigree of decades, has become increasingly apparent to the observant, perhaps because Hamas has resorted to ever-more obvious tactics to victimize their own people: storing its weapons and firing them from residential areas, hospitals, schools and mosques and even, hiding its leaders under Shiffa hospital. Asked about this, UN official John Ging readily admits: "Yes the armed groups are firing their armed rockets into Israel from the vicinity of UN facilities and residential areas, absolutely." Indeed, in some cases, while journalists speak to the camera, often following Hamas' script, Jihadis fire rockets right nearby—live, as it were.

The pattern consistently demonstrates what one Gazan from Tal Awad described to an Italian journalist in 2009 during Operation Cast Lead: "They wanted the [Israelis] to shoot at the [the civilians'] houses so they could accuse them of more war crimes." The importance of these rockets is not where they're aimed, but whence they're fired. They're a reverse target, designed to create the carnage that will rouse Western indignation.

How the media helped Hamas in the third Gaza War

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:03 AM

"Britain's Anti-Israel Charades"
Dis that cut-'n- paste actually say anything other than a leading financial newspaper objects to Baroness Warsi is in danger of putting at risk the profits of some arms dealers and financeers
Were's me hankie
"It should have read as asking what point he was making UP"
Much appreciated Muskie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:48 AM

Anti-Israel posturing is for many people the cheapest route to the appearance of virtue. So it is with British Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg and the Tory peer Baroness Sayeeda Warsi. Both have in recent days called for the suspension of U.K. arms-export licenses to the Jewish state. The Baroness took the further step on Tuesday of resigning her post as a Foreign Office Minister over David Cameron's "morally indefensible policy" on Gaza, as she put it in a letter to the Prime Minister.

The usual media suspects frame this minor rebellion as a heavy blow against Mr. Cameron: As the Liberal Democrat leader, Mr. Clegg is the junior partner in the coalition government; Baroness Warsi, meanwhile, is said to represent a groundswell of Tory discontent over Britain's mildly pro-Israel policy.

All that may be, but Mr. Clegg's and the Baroness's gesture politics also expose their own inconsistent moral outrage.

Britain's Anti-Israel Charades

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:45 AM

Jim, may I correct your grammar?

You asked braidedbeardedbruce what point he making. It should have read as asking what point he was making UP.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:41 AM

Not enough dead to satisy the blood lust of Hamas:

The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas's armed wing, said it will start firing as soon as the ceasefire ends on Friday at 8 a.m., Israeli news site Walla reported, citing the Hamas news agency Al-Risala.

Hamas deputy leader Mussa Abu Marzouq, part of the Palestinian delegation holding talks in Cairo, denied overnight there was yet any agreement.

"There is no agreement to extend the ceasefire," he wrote on Twitter.

"Any news about the extension of the truce is unfounded," added Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri.

Senior Hamas figure Ismail Radwan told Al-Risala that there has been no agreement on extending the ceasefire because Hamas demands have not been met.

Hamas rejects truce extension, threatens to renew fighting

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:47 AM

Beardie
Sorry - didn't understand either of your posts - what points were you making on both occasions?
"Has anyone noticed that the biggest opposition to Israel comes from our U.K. 'Catters?"
Possibly because we haven't got as many skeletons in our cupboards as has the U.S. with its carpet bombing, napalming and spraying of toxic carcinogenic chemicals    Vietnam, Cambodia..... and all the fascist dictators who the U.S. has supplied with arms intelligence (sic) and manpower)......
People who live in g#lass houses and all that.
"Israel has offered to extend a three-day ceasefire in Gaza which began on Tuesday after nearly a month of conflict, Israeli officials say."
Israel has left Gaza a major disaster area which will remain such for the foreseeable future
Mission accomplished.
Doesn't satisfy Terrytoon the Bearded braindead of course - that won't be achieved until every Palestinian is a thing of the past.
Game on eh lads?
"Boycott, Divest, and Sanction"
Drink to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:04 AM

"When I want a lecture from The USA I shall have to start murdering my citizens."

Harold Wilson.



I suppose Israel is keeping a tab and saying how they will pay back their "Marshall Plan."??

The USA waded in late, as usual, not to end atrocity but once they worked out that they were next. Pearl Harbour anyone?

If people from civilised countries where citizens aren't armed, prisoners aren't killed and cheese doesn't come in spray cans point out moral aspects, it's possibly because since leaving The USA to it in 1776 , our oversize trousered cousins still have less culture than a bucket of yoghurt. Goofus wants to know why?

Culture and mature pragmatic civilised behaviour.

Oh, and we can spell behaviour too.

Fascinated when I was in Chicago last. An old business colleague couldn't work out why, having right of residency, I or anyone for that matter wouldn't take it up.

You need to get out more.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:50 AM

Interesting parallels raised both by GfS and "Guest,hw" whose rather naive solution is:

"End the Siege of Gaza, Stop building settlements on stolen land, Dismantle the Wall and move it to the UN recognized 1967 border.
And Western leaders, get some guts and tell the Zionists to piss off

Boycott, Divest, and Sanction"

The demand would appear to be that Egypt and Israel must "End the Seige of Gaza" immediately and unconditionally. But Hamas and the Palestinians have to do nothing, leaving them free to "import" whatever weaponry they require (readily supplied by Iran) to resume attacks on Israeli civilians. Sorry "Guest,hw" that isn't going to happen. Only a complete and utter idiot would go along with that - only a complete and utter idiot would propose it.

"Stop building settlements on stolen land" the only land stolen from Palestine was Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank - They were stolen by the Egyptians and Jordanians in 1948 and illegally occupied for nearly 20 years - I note that you have never raised any objections to that. In 1947 the Arabs of Palestine were offered a Two State solution that they rejected, the Jews of Palestine accepted them - Now because the Arabs rejected that deal the plain simple fact of the matter is that there are NO agreed and established borders defining any Israeli and Palestinian states - stop pretending that there are.

"Dismantle the Wall" - Oh you mean the wall that has saved Israeli lives since its construction, preventing sniper attacks and bombers crossing from the West bank into Israel? The peace wall will stay, but as you stated:

"Dismantle the Wall and move it to the UN recognized 1967 border.

You already seem to recognise that fact and accept the necessity of there being a wall - Only trouble is, placed along this mythical recognised 1967 border (Which in actual fact is recognised by no-one) the Wall would not serve its purpose, it would be ineffective. Plus the fact that "going back to 1967 borders" gives Gaza to the Egyptians and East Jerusalem and the West Bank to the Jordanians. Or again is it only the Israelis who must act and commit to meeting the terms and conditions of this deal?

There can be no peace, there can be no settlement, there cannot even be any meaningful talks until the two following conditions are met:

1: Attacks on Israel launched from inside Palestinian territory MUST stop completely.

2: A clear and unequivocal statement has to be made covering all Palestinians that the right of Israel to exist as a State is recognised and that the population of Israel has the right to exist and live their lives in peace and security free from attack and the threat of attack from her neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 11:18 PM

The have laptop warriors here have likely never been in an armed conflict, maybe never even been tear-gassed, clubbed or even pepper sprayed. Yet they are endorsing war crimes and genocide by a racist, settler/colonial state which doesn't give a shit about international law, or UN resolutions, because it has the USA's veto in it's pocket, along with Congress. Ironically another settler/colonial state founded by armed resistance and exterminating the indigenous peoples there.
The 7th cavalry was defending itself at Wounded Knee in 1890 when 200 women and children were butchered. A lot of Congressional Medals were handed out for that turkey shoot and so it continues.
End the Siege of Gaza, Stop building settlements on stolen land, Dismantle the Wall and move it to the UN recognized 1967 border.
And Western leaders, get some guts and tell the Zionists to piss off

Boycott, Divest, and Sanction

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:16 PM

Not only that, Bobad, the U.S. AND Great Britain, BOTH bombed Berlin and other targets, in which there was collateral damage, and civilian deaths...MULTITUDES!...Did Great Britain bitch when V-E day arrived??..Hell No..they were celebrating and partying in the streets... Worldwide!....Then the soldiers came home, took wives, had children, who then, in turn, bitch about another country, that defends itself from the same thing, that their parents lived through..or should I say, courageously lived through!!...and now we have a bunch of Neville Chamberlains, tied in with the mega corporations and banksters, accusing Israel of being 'mean' to their attackers!!!
Talk about short sighted hypocrisy!!!...They are flaming idiots, and if they were running YOUR country, or ours, they would be treasonous traitors.....but that's OK...they've somewhat successfully blinded you(not you Bobad), with just a lot of bullshit...which apparently tastes real good to the nitwit crowd!
...but as long as they get their plastic, and T.V.'s, and computers, they don't think of survival beyond that!

Most Sincerely,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:30 PM

GfS does make a good point about some of our Brit posters whose country's ass was saved in WWII largely with US help yet they resent US aid to Israel......oh the hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:20 PM

Israel has offered to extend a three-day ceasefire in Gaza which began on Tuesday after nearly a month of conflict, Israeli officials say.

However, unconfirmed reports on social media suggest the militant Hamas movement, which controls Gaza, has not agreed to the extension.

BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:43 PM

Has anyone noticed that the biggest opposition to Israel comes from our U.K. 'Catters?....I suppose it's easy to be so fucking 'opinionated' about Israel striking back to stop the missile attacks, and tunnel invasions, and then blame Israel. Maybe the U.S. shouldn't have beaten the crap out of Germany, and bomb the fuck out of them, and their cities, and let them continue the bombing of London, and other parts of England....that way the modern day supporters of the idiot Fascists, that were bombing THEM, could have been typing their idiotic posts in German!!!..and you could be buying stock in the railways and chemical companies, to transport more Jews to their Holocaust...while your leader, Chamberlain and his modern day ilk, could give away other countries to appease the attackers!
What a bunch of moronic idiots!!

You, of all people should appreciate Israel for striking back...after all, England would have never made it, without defending itself, with America's 'help'..AND the largest invasion in history to save your silly asses!

Time to re-think your idiot position!
What are you?..Suicidal and proud of it????
...or just spoiled brats who can't think past their indoctrinated fantasy illusions???..and their over-inflated opinions of themselves??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:18 PM

Oh boy, Bullshot is off his meds again.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:33 PM

Jimmy,

OVER THE LAST 14 YEARS.


You really need to learn to read AND think.

Maybe even at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:32 PM

Jimmy,

OVER THE LAST !$ YEARS.


You really need to learn to read AND think.

Maybe even at the saw time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

"OVERALL TOTAL OF WHAT"
Overall Israelis killed - even less reason to have carried out the slaughter they have done if your count of own goals is correct.
By the way - your figure of 30 recent deaths is an invention of your own.
Israel claimed three at the beginning of last week - uncorroborated of course - since then no claim of any - real or invented (except by you)
"Crawl back under your rock and jack off"
Wouldn't dare - too afraid that some Israeli would come along and crush me and my family and friends and neighbours.... and anybody who happened to be in the vicinity, to a pulp, then smash the rock to powwder in case somebody wanted to live there again
"Arms to Israel was not mentioned."
BRITISH ARMS SALES TO ANOTHER TERRORIST STATE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:15 PM

In at least one case, a medium-range M-75, based on Iran's Fajr-5 rocket, exploded during launch. The rocket contains a conventional warhead of at least 100 kilograms and at least seven Palestinians were killed.

"Over the course of the operation approximately 280 rockets were launched and landed within the Gaza Strip," the military said on July 30.

In a briefing on July 29, military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said Hamas rockets fell on civilian facilities in the Gaza Strip. He cited an accidental Hamas missile strike on Shifa Hospital in Gaza City and the Shati refugee camp just outside the city.

"A short while ago Al Shifa Hospital and Al Shati Refugee Camp were struck by failed rocket attacks launched by Gaza terrorists," the military said.

Hamas has denied any accidental rocket fire on the Gaza Strip. But Palestinian sources said numerous rocket launches ended up falling in Gaza communities and that scores of people have been killed or injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:13 PM

"A Palestinian Arab girl was killed and three others wounded in Gaza after a rocket fired at Israel by terrorists in the Hamas-enclave fell short, landing in Gaza itself.

The rocket was the third of four fired within an hour from Gaza. The Iron Dome anti-missile defense system shot down the first two, which were launched within minutes of each other, and the fourth hit a town in the Sedot Negev Regional Council, causing no damage.

Hamas medical sources say the fatality is a three-year-old girl."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:11 PM

Far from the camera's eye, Gaza's children are injured and sometimes even die, every time Hamas terrorists misfire a missile intended to kill other children in Israel.

But operatives quickly scramble into the scene and clear away the debris from the failed launch, before international cameras are able to snap a shot of the bloody mess.

Reporters are warned and sometimes roughed up. Photographers too. They understand the deal; they've been through this before and they know the rules of the region.

In Syria, dozens have died.

Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati, however, swallowed his fear and waited for the opportunity to tell the truth. When he left Gaza, he took his morals along with him and posted that truth in a tweet on the Twitter social networking site.

gabrielebarbati
Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris

The reference is to an alleged attack on the Al-Shati "refugee camp" and the Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza, both of which were blamed on Israel. An Iranian-made long-range Fajr rocket misfired upon launch at the Al-Shifa hospital, killing and injuring numerous civilians shortly after 5pm on July 28, including many children.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:08 PM

At a local Gazan protest against the war, Hamas gunmen shot and killed 20 unarmed protesters on Monday last week and summarily executed 10 alleged collaborators with Israel the same day. Not everybody wants to die for the Islamist cause.

International humanitarian law requires that the armed force used to achieve an objective may be no more than that which is necessary and that only military objectives are lawful targets. Civilian infrastructure and people are unlawful targets unless they serve military purposes or are participating in hostilities as combatants, compromising their civilian status. Accordingly, risks to civilians must be assessed before deciding whether or how to attack a target or return fire.

In relation to the use of human shields, passive victims of Hamas military policy who find themselves in the vicinity of its facilities are to be protected as much as possible. In targeting a military objective, their casualties should not be disproportionate to the military advantage to be gained.
For example, a decision on whether or how to return mortar fire needs to take into account the obligation to minimise potential harm to civilians. On Wednesday last week, 15 Gazans were killed in an exchange of mortar fire initiated by Hamas from the site of a UN shelter. Questions arise as to whether IDF fire was responsible for the deaths and whether the IDF return fire was necessary, whether it was sufficiently informed by field intelligence, whether higher precision alternatives were available and whether target-specific legal advice and real-time monitoring was possible.

In contrast to passive victims, active human shields who voluntarily put their bodies in the service of Hamas's war effort intend to block fire in combat and they have an individual combat function that compromises their civilian status. Although they themselves are not legitimate targets, the facilities or people they seek to shield are. Their direct participation in hostilities undermines the legal obligation to protect them. They should be forewarned, but their deaths or injuries are legally caused.


Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/how-gaza-became-one-big-suicide-bomb-20140803-zzxgn.html#ixzz39dm0aaZk

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:26 PM

Jimmy,

"The numbers I gave are an overall total"


OVERALL TOTAL OF WHAT??????? There have been more Palestinians admitted being killed by launchers blowing up on the ground than that in the last 14 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:23 PM

Musket, I think you must have misheard that quote if you have not made it up.

Andrew Smith is a spokesperson for Campaign Against Arms Trade.
"As long as Europe continues to give its unconditional military and political support to Israel then it has to bear a degree of responsibility for the ongoing conflict. "

"The EU policy is laid out in the EU/Israel Action plan, which states: "Israel and the EU will strive to intensify political, security, economic, scientific and cultural relations, and shared responsibility in conflict prevention and conflict resolution." Despite these rather heady words the arms sales and military collaboration has only continued, with EU nations taking a back seat, largely staying silent on Israel's actions. "
https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/andrew-smith/we-are-all-complicit-in-bombardment-of-gaza

I previously provided an EU list of all its restrictions.
Arms to Israel was not mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:16 PM

No I am not -m that can be put down directly to retaliation to extreme aggression
The numbers I gave are an overall total
"Since Hamas chose to use it's concrete to make tunnels to attack Israel RATHER THAN build shelters for their civilian population, "
Like us Brits spent all our money on air-raid shelters instead of defence weapon, do you mean.
Just what the Israelis would have wanted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:04 PM

Jimmy boy,



"actual sum total of rocket casualties since 2000 = 22"

Yopu are not including the ADMITTED 30+ in Gaza the last few weeks?

The numbers I gave are for an unprotected urban environment, like Gaza.

The number YOU give ( which I presume is Israelis killed by Gazan rocket fire) is for a population with shelters and a warning system.

Since Hamas chose to use it's concrete to make tunnels to attack Israel RATHER THAN build shelters for their civilian population, the two sets of numbers cannot be compared.


Crawl back under your rock and jack off on the thought of those dead Palestinian civilians, Jimmy boy

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:02 PM

Where did your figure come from Jim?
Is it just Israeli casualties?
BB is referring to deaths within Gaza caused by failed rocket attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:58 PM

Brucie the blusterer
Don't know where your figures came from but actual sum total of rocket casualties since 2000 = 22
Now go and count how many revenge killings of civilians have taken place in the last three weeks
These are figures supplied by independent observers and freely available on non - aligned websits - and before you demand (beligerant twats like you don't ask) - I'll show you mine if and when you show me yours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:55 PM

Musket,

I keep saying that the children murdered by Hamas anti-personnel rockets and by Israeli counter-fire at rocket launch sites that Hamas has ILLEGALLY located in protected areas are the responsibility of Hamas.


HAMAS stated that at least 160 children were killed in making those tunnels to attack Israel. I support THEY are all killed by Israel as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:48 PM

2-3 killed, 45-60 wounded from each warhead.

Of course those are average values- some might hit an open area and kill no-one, some might land in a schoolyard and kill 25 or so.


The 20-30% misfire hitting Gaza is the OBSERVED rate- the number that do not leave the ground and explode at the launch site would add to this. No good figures on how many THAT is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:37 PM

Jimmy boy,

" go count the number of people who have actually been killed in the last dozen years and report back
Jim Carroll"

OK, I am. The number of civilians killed in recent years is consistent with two sets of numbers.

1. The inclusion of a large number of non-uniformed fighters in combat being claimed by Hamas to be civilian ( but the statistics are not correct- too many of the ages 18-27, not enough women)

2. The expected kill rate for random hits by Hamas anti-personnel rockets on unsheltered Palestinian civilians- 640- 960 rockets hitting Gaza, 2-3 killed, 45-60 wounded from each warhead.

Now tell me- Is Hamas LYING about who is being killed, or are they LYING about HOW they are being killed? EITHER fits the data.