BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM

"UN report that 77% of the deaths have been civilians"
Anews report has just announced that somewhere between a quater and a half of these are children - Hamas children, no doubt!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.

    The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed.

    That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia.

    In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

If true, why would Hamas issue this advisory?


could this be true? 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

OK.. 17,000 refugees and counting. Israel is openly bombing towns in Northern Gaza. Confirmed reports of 172 people killed by Israeli forces since last Tuesday. Israel is putting soldiers on the border ready for a ground invasion.

UN report that 77% of the deaths have been civilians but Israeli military spokesman says UN are wrong.

Quite...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

How does that compare to other conflicts? Wars differ in nature (ground vs. air, for example), pace, and duration. So let's look at air wars and compare the civilian death rates per strike. So far in Gaza, Israel has hit approximately 1,100 sites. Using the high-end casualty count, that's an average of one civilian death for every 14 to 15 sites struck. In the 1999 Kosovo air war, Human Rights Watch found that NATO had killed approximately 500 civilians in attacks on more than 900 targets. That's more than one death for every two targets hit.
…..

Israel claims to be doing something much better. Here's how the IDF's spokesmandescribes it:

We phone up our enemies and tell them that we are going to blow up the building, we throw non-explosive munitions, and that is a sign they are supposed to vacate the building. Only once we have seen them vacate the building—and we are talking about [hitting] command and control places and not the terrorists themselves—then we hit.
In other accounts, Israeli briefers have said that they also send text messages and that the final warning shot, known as a "knock on the roof," can be a mortar strike that hits just hard enough to scare everyone out. "According to the procedure," says Ynet, an Israeli news site, "it is only after the IDF makes sure residents have evacuated the premises that the missile that could destroy the house is launched."

In the history of warfare, this kind of systematic warning—direct, specific, double-layered—is unprecedented. It lets the enemy military officer escape in order to avoid killing his family. But how strictly is the IDF adhering to this policy?

In some cases, there's video evidence of targets being warned or knocked. In other cases, Gazans have confirmed that they received calls or warning flares.

….

There's photographic evidence of people going on to the roof of a targeted building after a warning. And in the worst mass-fatality incident of the campaign's first 48 hours, witnesses say that after residents had been warned and had left the house—thereby making the IDF think it was empty—neighbors and some family members went back in to "form a human shield." By then, the IDF couldn't stop the missile.

It's not clear how often this has happened or what role Hamas has played. Israel cites a TV interview in which a Hamas spokesman praised the courage of human shields. It also points to a statement from Gaza's interior ministry, which urged Gazans not to "pay attention" to Israel's "communications on the phones of citizens." But praise isn't an order, and the ministry statement may have been referring to a mass robo-calling campaign in which Israel told Gazans to leave their homes in preparation for a ground assault.

If Gazans choose to defy the warnings and go on to their roofs, what right does Israel have to strike them? The IDF claimsit will strike anyway, but it has already blinked. In the case that was video-recorded, "the IDF decided not to bomb the home," says the Israeli news site Arutz Sheva. "In most cases ... Israel will simply refrain from taking action if Israeli forces are aware of the presence of civilians in the vicinity."

Do these factors—the fatality rate, the warnings, the shields—make Israel's conduct acceptable? I'll leave that to you. Either way, we need to cut through the propaganda on both sides, analyze the best information on the ground, and put it in context. In some ways, Israel is raising the standards of what can be expected in warfare.


http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-is-raising-the-moral-standards-of-

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:36 AM

""Dont eat the yellow snow"" Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:03 AM

"Two things that can't be looked at for too long, the sun and the truth"
Another Arab proverb

...speaking of proverbs....

"There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads discord among brothers."---Proverbs 6:16-19......(Jewish)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM

"Beware: some liers tell the truth"
 Arab Proverb.  

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:19 PM

Hamas is clearly trying to provoke an Israeli land response so they can have a 'battle' in which they will claim some sort of victory based on any damage they can inflict, human or otherwise. They have committed the Palestinian people to a crusade of victimology whether or not the Israelis commit ground forces.
The Israelis understand this but they may go anyway, their goal will be to do whatever most weakens Hamas.
Hamas is trying the same logic as that of the terrorists of "Battle of Algers" while overlooking that the motivations behind both sides in the Mideast are far more balanced than they were in North Africa.
I think their timing stinks. Not only is it Ramadan, but the incredible amounts of violence going on in Iraq and Syria is diluting the perception of Palestinian misery, and increase the percepton of how much of it is self-inflicted.
I heard a report on the radio that now that the rockets out of Gaza have the range to hit well inside Israel, they have reached into the West Bank, which is an argument IMHO for Israel to absorb more territory not less.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM

"Exactly....that is why Hamas must be removed."
So the Israelis can move in and move them all to concentration camps - no doubt - the next step to dail;y humiliation and harrasment, as history has shown.
"The Israelis are behaving like a master-race"
No - more evidence of yours -Jews aren't slaughtering Palestinian men women and children indiscriminately - the Israeli regime is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM

"It is now a besieged camp for a Palestinian people under constant threat of harassment, daily humiliation and imminent invasion."

Exactly....that is why Hamas must be removed.


"The Israelis are behaving like a master-race"

More evidence of your antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

What??? Nazi-style Jew-hate among Palestinians and their apologists??? Shocker!

Palestinian Activists Are Using The Hashtag #HitlerWasRight:

BuzzFeed

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

"Israel gave the lands for the Palestinians"
The Israelis gave SFA - Gaza became a ghetto on a piece of shit land Israel didn't want - sort of like the South African townships.
It is now a besieged camp for a Palestinian people under constant threat of harassment, daily humiliation and imminent invasion.
Go look at the then and now maps to see how much land the Palestinian people have lost.
Nobody is trying to portray the people as happy with anything, certainly not ISIS, and Hamas have long been regarded as a necessary evil
] standing between them and either the refugee camps or annihilation.
It is only though international intervention that the Bedouins wren't all landed onto a toxic rubbish dump.
The Israelis are behaving like a master-race; the actual head-count of the dead shows how 'defensive' their thuggish behaviour is - as pointed out adequately by Chomsky.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

'RETAKE the Gaza.."

RETAKE...think about it...Israel gave the lands for the Palestinians, and Hamas used the land, that was given in for a 'peaceful' concession, to build tunnels and fortify it, as a base to launch attacks against the very people who gave it to the Palestinians to live, hopefully in peace. You are assuming (or trying to portray) that the Palestinians are wonderfully 'happy' with Hamas. You are trying to portray Hamas is happy with ISIS, Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, the Sunnis and the Shiites, Kurd, Egypt, Somalia, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, the Taliban etc etc, like they are all one sort of one big happy family of peaceful, fun-loving, happy Arabs, who welcome their cousins, the Jews, to the region, so they could all live as bosom buddies! ...but of the aforementioned groups, they are all at war with each other, allying themselves TEMPORARILY, with another of the group, to help wipe out somebody else of the group!....which causes me to wonder...WHY do you resent the Jews? WHY do you resent Israel?..when they are the ONLY ones to grant concessions, and lands, only to have the agreements violated and be attacked, in return. Truth be told, if it broke out into all out war, Israel could wipe the rest off the map. If anything they have shown restraint, while at the same time, no tolerance to having their country repeatedly attacked. WHY does that bother you?? Does it infringe on your predisposed bias and hatred?

As far as Chomsky, to whom I usually agree with on a lot of issues, let's rephrase the question..."The Hamas decision to rain death and destruction into Israel(remember, they fired the first rockets), to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Israelis.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has rocket launchers hidden within the civilian populace, which has no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, (except missile launchers), no artillery units,(except missile launchers) no mechanized armor, (except missile launchers)(except missile launchers)(except missile launchers)no command in control, except missile launchers, no army… (except terror units with missile launchers)and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder."
Now IF Hamas is FORCING civilians to act as human shields, perhaps the civilians should rise up against Hamas...IF they decide to be human shields, on their own, then they are combatants, who are foolishly unarmed while in the line of fire!..I mean, why bring just sandals and a Burkha to a war zone?!? to be a shield...with your children???..and expect Hamas to protect you??
I got a 'novel idea'..how about not launching missile strikes, kidnapping, or other acts of violence and then hiding behind innocent civilians, so you can claim that the Israelis started it with no provocation...or just for the 'fun of it'????

Lots of questions to answer...let's try it...or at least THINK beyond the biases!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

"Israel has nuclear weapons"

And how many nuclear weapons has Israel fired into Gaza?
Another pathetic attempt to create a false equivalence.

"Israel is, and continues to be the overwhelming aggressor working on the basis that might is right."

More propaganda bullshit straight out of the comrade playbook.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

"Israel needs to retake Gaza to rid it of the one entity that is responsible for every single one of those deaths"
By the discrepancy in the number of deaths the Palestinians need to retake Israel.
Israel is, and continues to be the overwhelming aggressor working on the basis that might is right.
"it's cache of 10,000 missiles"
Israel has nuclear weapons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM

""The nature of human evil does not rest in the mythic explanations of our wrong doing. It cannot be assessed in the measure of the destructiveness of our evil behaviors. The identity or nature of human evil is found in the origin of hurtful behaviors. That origin is misguided instinct (ignorance) and fear. Even when we lack courage or knowledge, we are still being guided by our simple instinct to benefit ourselves. No matter how brutal and terrifying our capacity to destroy one another, we are all just little children trying to find some goodness in our little lives. In all of our moral choosing there is the constant expression of this natural instinct to benefit ourselves and a corresponding instinctual simplicity of innocence that dwells in all humanity. In this Socratic perspective, human fear and ignorance make up the nature of human evil. What is the face of this humain evil? Is it the face of a monster? Is it the face of the Devil? No, the face of human evil is the face of every lost and frightened child. It is the face of innocence under stress.""

FROM: A Socreatic Perspective on the Nature of Human Evil, Max Maxwell

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

Cue the psychobabble.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

And the blood of every single one of those is on the hands of Hamas.

Perfect example of transferrance, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

".... a widening offensive that has killed more than 160 Palestinians."

And the blood of every single one of those is on the hands of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:02 AM

Israel needs to retake Gaza

Establishing yet another occupied territory, Boo? Thought you maintain that such do not exist, and never have existed.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israel briefly deployed ground troops inside the Gaza Strip for the first time early Sunday as its military warned northern Gaza residents to evacuate their homes, part of a widening offensive that has killed more than 160 Palestinians.

160 dead and counting, Boo - good job avoiding cililians, eh? Wonder how many wounded they've racked up?

By the way - where, exactly, are the northern Gaza residents supposed to go, do you suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

Jeffrey Goldberg nails it IMO:

Mahmoud Abbas, the sometimes moderate, often ineffectual leader of the Palestinian Authority, just asked his rivals in Hamas a question that other bewildered people are also asking: "What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?"

The Gaza-based Hamas has recently fired more than 500 rockets at Israeli towns and cities. This has terrorized the citizenry, though caused few casualties, in large part because Israel is protected by the Iron Dome anti-rocket system.

In reaction to these indiscriminately fired missiles, Israel has bombarded targets across Gaza, killing roughly 100 people so far. Compared with violent death rates in other parts of the Middle East, the number is small. (More than 170,000 people have been killed in the Syrian civil war to date.) But it is large enough to suggest an answer to Abbas's question: Hamas is trying to get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible.

Dead Palestinians represent a crucial propaganda victory for the nihilists of Hamas. It is perverse, but true. It is also the best possible explanation for Hamas's behavior, because Hamas has no other plausible strategic goal here.

Is Hamas Trying to Get Gazans Killed?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM

Israel needs to retake Gaza to rid it of the one entity that is responsible for every single one of those deaths. To try and justify Hamas' aggression by blaming it on the blockade is specious at best and demonstrably false as evidenced by it's cache of 10,000 missiles including Syrian-made M-302 Khaibars and Iranian Iranian Fajr-5 missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:00 AM

""Israel can no longer enable its citizens to "live normal lives" without retaking Gaza"
Gazan have been unable to live "normal lives" for many decades due to Israel's continuing aggression - how about, "lift the blockade, stop building settlements and knowk the 'Berlin' walls down and the rockets will stop".
Between 2001 and 2012 there were 64 Israeli deaths due to Palestinian rockets - the death toll among Palestinians has now exceeded 150 in the last few days.
Seems like a fair swap to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 08:01 AM

"Israel can no longer enable its citizens to "live normal lives" without retaking Gaza. "Restraint" and "proportionality" have so degraded its deterrence that it can no longer dissuade enemies from attacking almost at will."

Into the Fray: The ruinous results of restraint

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM

It seems that neither side has clean hands as far as the use of human shields

HUMAN SHIELDS

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

"No, O insightful one, they are getting pounded in self defense for sending missiles into Israel's populated areas, indiscriminately"
A rocket launcher in every home hospita and school that is being bombartded at present - I assume - a medical home for the elderly disabled yesterday, wasn't it?
I' with Chomsky completely on this - well worth repeating - to be ignored by you and yours, no doubt.
"The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace.
The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.
When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.
— Noam Chomsky"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:44 AM

Oh, and I left something out...You have no qualms with a group who uses citizens for human shields, while firing missiles into civilian populated areas, of another country, while counting on the Israelis to hesitate because of the human shields, and figuring the international community will condemn Israel for it!..How about condemning Hamas for using human shields???!!!???...or is that beyond your capacity?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:38 AM

Jim Carroll: "Which is, of course, why the Palestinian people fully deserve the punishment they are receiving at the hands of the Israeli regime."

No, O insightful one, they are getting pounded in self defense for sending missiles into Israel's populated areas, indiscriminately, and are a front for Iran. Israel has no beef with Palestine...it's Hamas...and there IS a difference! ..and as far as your comparison with Nazi Germany, Israel is not shipping Palestinians or Hamas to ovens....ironic though, Iran wants to nuke Israel off the map. Don't you think that if YOUR lineage had gone through that, you would confusing ideological notions with survival of your country and people????...unless, of course, you had a secret desire, to one of the ones pulling levers for loading in Zyklon B!!!
Maybe you should re-think your biases...you wreak with them!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:19 AM

"the other being a recognised illegally operating terrorist body threatening the safety and security of those citizens"
Which is, of course, why the Palestinian people fully deserve the punishment they are receiving at the hands of the Israeli regime.
One may e elected representatives - both are terrorist groups - the fact that Israel has a mandate to act as it does doesn't male it any less so.
The inequality lies in the strength to resist, not in their legitimacy.
The fact that the Israeli regime is acting with the blessing of the Israeli implicates the etire populti in the slaughter that is now taking place.
I believe that the German Government was an elected one when it was handing out the Yellow Stars, and those opposing it in Warsaw had no such mandate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:40 AM

Hear Hear!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:40 AM

And there has been an obvious failure, on the part of those denouncing Israel in these latest posts, to have taken any cognisance of the vital point made above by the Canadian minister: that Israel and Hamas are not equivalent entities: one being a sovereign state within the international community, with the responsibilities of all and any such for the safety of its citizens; the other being a recognised illegally operating terrorist body threatening the safety and security of those citizens. This way of going on as if they were opponents facing one another on equal political or moral terms is a manifest absurdity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:54 PM

Sooner or later(except for those who lack common sense), it may dawn on the Israel haters, that this war isn't exactly with Hamas. It's with Iran, and Hamas is just their proxies. Who do you think is supplying Hamas....and sooner or later, Israel is going to go after Iran, probably when they try to take out their nukes. So to those who are mistakenly pretending that this is a just an Israeli skirmish with the local Palestinians, over Israel being aggressive instigators, for whatever reason that some childish ideologue is daydreaming about, over 2 six packs and a bowl or two, while stroking himself over Obama and Pelosi, you are NOT looking or even regarding the whole of the situation.
Obama IS helping though...he's opening up our borders!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:14 PM

Hey Boo- take it up directly with that anti-Semite Sarit Michaeli why dontcha?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM

I'm sure you don't even appreciate the ludicrousness of the demand for Israel to cease fire. It would be akin to demanding the allies moving against the Nazi aggression in WWII to cease fire. Hamas are the aggressors here and Israel are acting to halt their aggression. They have expressed their willingness to consider the terms of a truce proposed by Egypt and Qatar which was categorically rejected by Hamas. The UN "demands" for a ceasefire are nothing more than theater to make it look like it still has relevancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:22 PM

Atta boy, Boo - play the old Nazi card. Whatsa matter? - you get tired of playing the anti-Semite card?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM

Right, Israel should agree to a unilateral ceasefire - where have we heard that before...."This way to the gas chambers ladies and gentlemen".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

Israel Ignores UN's Gaza Truce Request, Extends Bombings
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Jul 12, 2014, 5:37 PM ET
By KHALED KHAZZIHA and MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH Associated Press

Ignoring international appeals for a cease-fire, Israel on Saturday widened its range of Gaza bombing targets to civilian institutions with suspected Hamas ties and announced it would hit northern Gaza "with great force" to prevent rocket attacks from there on Israel. More than 150 Palestinians have been killed in five days of bombardment.

One of the Israeli strikes hit a center for the disabled where Palestinians said two patients were killed and four people seriously hurt. In a second attack, on Saturday evening, an Israeli warplane flattened the home of Gaza's police chief and damaged a nearby mosque as evening prayers ended, killing at least 18 people, officials said.

Israel's heavy bombardment of one of the most densely populated territories in the world is itself the main factor putting civilians at risk. Sarit Michaeli of the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that while using human shields violates international humanitarian law, "this does not give Israel the excuse to violate international humanitarian law as well."

See Also 12 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM

Hey, Boo - I guess Sarit Michaeli is an anti-Semite, right? Or is he a "self-hating Jew"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:37 PM

This from Ira Weiss a champion of peace in the Middle East:

Gershon Baskin has dealt directly with Hamas loyalists and officials more than any other Israeli alive. For years, as director of IPCRI, he had friendly personal relations with dozens of members of Hamas. He was the person who negotiated the release of Shalit who had been kidnapped and was being held by Hamas. He is probably the only Israeli whose opinions about Hamas motives I take seriously. These are his latest comments about the current situation.

"From my information, Hamas has refused all ceasefire plans. They want the Israeli ground operation. They want to blow up some tanks - they have anti-tanks rockets, They want to kill some soldiers and they want to abduct a soldier.

"The people of Gaza want this to end. Someone in Gaza who refused to curse Abu Mazen was shot in the legs by Hamas.

"People in Gaza are afraid to go out to the streets to tell Hamas to stop.

"Meanwhile Hamas rockets continue to fall all over Israel and Israeli planes are continuing to drop bombs in Gaza. Israelis have defenses, Gazans do not."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:32 PM

Bobad, You are trying to tell 'so-called liberal' hypocrites about 'moral equivalence'...but first you should describe to them what is 'moral'.....or morality. It's like trying to get a get a earthworm to sing!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM

There is absolutely no moral equivalence between Hamas' actions and Israel's response to them. Trying to create one smacks of an attempt to justify the indiscriminate targeting of civilians by rocket and mortar fire which is morally reprehensible IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM

Wake up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

Go back to sleep. Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:18 PM

What would 'we' expect our governments to do if rockets were raining down on Los Angeles or New York, Dallas, London, Calgary,..have a 'ideological discussion'?????

Naw, I'd hope they'd kick ass on whomever was launching and sending them in....and blow the shit out of them!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM

Someone earlier used the term genocide for what is taking place in Gaza. Besides being a blatant attempt at demonization it is also laughable: in 1970 the population of Gaza was 340,000, in 1980 460,000, in 1990 460,000, in 2000 1.3 million, in 2014 1.8 million.....some genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM

Of course Israel should be blamed for trying to stop the hundreds of rockets being launched against her civilians. She should just meekly accept it and assume her historical identity as a victim of Jew hatred. "This way to the gas chambers, ladies and gentlemen".

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 05:37 PM

Is there not blame to go around on both sides?

Not according to BooBad & his fellow travellers, Ed. Take care, or they'll be calling you an anti-Semite next.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:13 PM

Criticism of Israel's Response to Rocket Attacks from Gaza

July 12, 2014 - Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird today issued the following statement:

"Canada rejects UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay's uncalled-for criticism of Israel's response to rocket attacks from Gaza. Focusing her comments on Israel is neither helpful nor reflective of the reality of this crisis.

"There must be no moral equivalence between Hamas, a listed terrorist organization, and its blatant disregard for human life, and the liberal democratic State of Israel's duty and obligation to defend its people from cowardly and indiscriminate attacks.

"Canada mourns the death and suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza. Responsibility rests solely with Hamas and its allies, who launched and continue to feed this crisis.

"The Israel Defense Forces have taken extraordinary steps to reduce civilian casualties in very difficult and trying conditions. Israel should be commended—not criticized—for these efforts in the face of an enemy clearly determined to put civilians, from both sides, in mortal danger to suit its own purposes.

"Canada calls on Hamas and other militant groups to end the rocket attacks on Israel and bring an end to the ongoing violence that threatens the lives of innocent Israelis and Palestinians. The path chosen by Hamas and its allies does not lead to peace."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

Gaza terrorists used a mosque located near Palestinian homes as a place to hide rockets and gather militants. Our aircraft struck this mosque last night in order to disable Hamas from firing at Israel. Terrorist organizations systematically use mosques to conceal weapons and create underground tunnels within populated areas.

Declassified photo

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:06 PM

Declassified aerial photo: #Hamas military training compound & terror tunnels in a school's backyard in Gaza City.

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