BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:35 PM

JEWS HAVE NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH THIS AND TO CLAIM THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ISRAEL IS 'JEWISH" IS ABOUT AS ANTISEMITIC AS IT GETS - YOUR CHOICE OF WORDS
Some of the harshest critics of the Israeli regime are Jewish groups like 'Jews For Justice'.
It was former heads of Mossad, the Israeli Secret Service who equated Israeli policy with the Nazis.
By describing Sabra/Shatila, and every other recognised squalidly appalling war crime as "Jewish" you are laying the blame on the Jewish people as a whole.
By skulking behind the six million dead and refusing to respond to anything relevant to what is happening today is to piss on their corpses.
Not only a Zionist, but an anti-Semite one - didn't believe it was possible.
"You mean by the Arab League attack on Israel???"
No - I meant the massacres, including the ones described by Jewish researcher Benny Morris, of thousands of civilians in order to clear the way for Israeli settlements
You have chosen to ignore the present peace settlement and in doing so you have even put the Israelis in disrepute by proving that their participation is a sham
Vicious little racist pratt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:12 PM

""For all the racists and Nazis here,"
Please stop talking to yourself"


I WAS TALKING TO GREGF AND YOU, AS WELL SOME OTHERS. You are happy to accuse others, yet fail to see that you are a genocidal bigot.





"the Jewish homeland as defined by the treaty ending WW 1, for 1921 and 1924"
Which was superseded by the treaty that brought Israel into being, agred by all partities and was drawn up in recognisation of the fact that the Arabs had occupied that part of the Middle East for as long as had the Jews."

Superseded? How? The only thing I can imagine you refer to is that Britain gave up the Mandate. NO TREATY WAS EVER signed among the parties. The ARABS got 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory- how much more should they have?????


"The ink on that treaty wasn't dry when it was breached by Israeli terrorism and human rights abuses."

You mean by the Arab League attack on Israel???



"The change in the territorial maps have been brought about by internationally recognised illegal Israeli settlements which have been facilitated by over a hundred US vetos in the UN"

Wrong.



"To equate opposition to Israeli policy with " racists and Nazis" and Nazis it to lay the blame for Israeli terrorism on the Jews - your choice, nobody else's. "

No, the terrorism is on the Arabs who have declared it is their purpose to kill all the Jews.



"It is also you has claimed and are continuing to claim that the Palestinians have no legal right to Palestine (despite treaties, UN resolutions, world-wide condemnation)"

NO, they have rights, WHICH YOU AND the other Arab nations have denied them since 1948.
(despite treaties, UN resolutions, world-wide condemnation)


"Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring
to it."

To you it would- that is your preferred method of "negotiating" with Jews, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:46 AM

"For all the racists and Nazis here,"
Please stop talking to yourself
"the Jewish homeland as defined by the treaty ending WW 1, for 1921 and 1924"
Which was superseded by the treaty that brought Israel into being, agred by all partities and was drawn up in recognisation of the fact that the Arabs had occupied that part of the Middle East for as long as had the Jews.
The ink on that treaty wasn't dry when it was breached by Israeli terrorism and human rights abuses.
The change in the territorial maps have been brought about by internationally recognised illegal Israeli settlements which have been facilitated by over a hundred US vetos in the UN
To equate opposition to Israeli policy with " racists and Nazis" and Nazis it to lay the blame for Israeli terrorism on the Jews - your choice, nobody else's.
It is also you has claimed and are continuing to claim that the Palestinians have no legal right to Palestine (despite treaties, UN resolutions, world-wide condemnation)
Put them in gas ovens, drive them into the desert, starve them into submission, cut off their water and electricity supplies, re-settle them on poisonous dumps.... all have a familiar ring to it.
You have no need to emerge from the closet - you were never in there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:34 AM

And now they are attempting to run weaponry into the West Bank from Syria and Iran through Jordan - getting ready for peace I presume - SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

And btw, what was the area of PALESTINE in 1950? 1967? How about ZERO- The Arab nations would not allow a Palestine, in order to keep a ready source of cannon fodder and terrorists available.

and NOW- Gaza has already been given to them ( and they use it to attack Israel), and if they want peace, the Palestinians will get some portion of the West Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:07 AM

For all the racists and Nazis here,

Why don't you look at the maps of Mandate Palestine, the Jewish homeland as defined by the treaty ending WW 1, for 1921 and 1924- note the 77% DECREASE to create the Arab Homeland where Jews were prohibited from settling?

Note the GREATER number of Jews driven from Arab nations than the fraction of Arab Palestinians that fled from Israel in 1948?

No answers from you on that- just ad hominem attacks.You really do represent the "Liberal" viewpoint .



And it is Jim who wants the genocide and ovens- I would be happy to have them go to the Arab nations that SHOULD have accepted them in 1948 but chose to make their lives hell .


But then, those here have never cared about the Palestinians- just about killing Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:33 AM

"you have lost the debate gentlemen."
Boo Boo
You have refused to respond to the basic subject - Israeli settlements and the peace talks
Aoart from 2 ultra right sites you have provided no evidence for your claims
You have dismissed all evidence contrary to your own as 'leftie' and haven't even attempted to respond to it.
Yup; you're right (really Right) - you've got us beat hands down.
Give Yogi and the Ranger our regards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 09:39 AM

When all you can do is resort to attacking the sources without regard to the content while employing cutesy little nicknames for other posters you have lost the debate gentlemen. It's been fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 09:26 AM

And with one mighty bound he springs from his Zionist closet.
These would be the same Zionists who are demanding that all Palestinians should have their electricity and water cut off and be driven into the desert would they.
It's a self-declared ultra-Zionist site Boo Boo - you really are not very good at this, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

Hmmm... a self-proclaimed Zionist propaganda site. Must be true, eh BooBad?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:27 AM

The Incredible Shrinking Jewish National Home

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:18 AM

"I'd like to see how BB and Bobad can spin those four maps into Israel giving up land."
They can't and they won't even try - like all the other facts here, they will ignore them and continue to peddle their 'ethnic cleansing' line.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:08 AM

Obviously the title of this thread needs adjusting.

All's normal for Israel/No hope for Palestine.

Just one look at the maps shows the planned end game.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:05 AM

""What was the land area of Israel in 1948, 1967 and now, with sources please."
The then-and-now comparisons can be made here Don - pretty spectacular.
http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/announcement-squatter-palestine.html""

I'd like to see how BB and Bobad can spin those four maps into Israel giving up land.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:12 AM

Or here
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
or here
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html
Or even further back, here
http://www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:00 AM

"What was the land area of Israel in 1948, 1967 and now, with sources please."
The then-and-now comparisons can be made here Don - pretty spectacular.
http://www.juancole.com/2013/08/announcement-squatter-palestine.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:50 PM

""Israel, since 1948, has been willing to trade land for peace. They have given up land, but not had peace.""

Go on, amaze us!

What was the land area of Israel in 1948, 1967 and now, with sources please.

Let's see what land they have given up. My suspicion is that it will be a minor proportion of what they had previously grabbed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:37 PM

""Hey, Bobad,

You are making the mistake that Jews are humans. The ones here pushing for the Palestinians have already stated that Jews have no rights, and should be removed by whatever means that are available.""

Another pack of lies you devious prat.

The only people here even mentioning the Jews are you and Bobad.

Nothing being said by anybody else amounts to antisemitism. The only antisemitic comments are your own.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:19 PM

"Israel, since 1948, has been willing to trade land for peace. They have given up land, but not had peace."
No they haven't - the British left to the sound of Israeli 'Freedom Fighters' hurling hand grenades into occupied houses to clear the ground for Jewish settlers - documented fact - it's in the book
They haven't stopped since
You refuse to even refer to what rights Palestinians have to what land
which means none - so it's the gast chambers then.
You refuse to refer to the present peace talks and the influence Israli settlement has already had on the outcome - which means you agree with us that it is no more than a PR exercise by the Israelis who have no interest in peace
You are an inept armchair Zionist fanatic not even capable of putting forward a half decent argument.
You are to the Israeli regime what the skinhead braindeads are to the BNP
Couldn't agree less that we should ignore this pair of yobs Steve - they are making our case far more effectively than we possibly could - leave them at it
Jim Carroll

The 1948 Massacre at Deir Yassin Revisited
by Matthew Hogan
Between 9 and 11 April 1948, over 100 Arab townspeople were massacred by Jewish paramilitaries in Deir Yassin near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine. The incident was pivotal in modern Middle East history, becoming in one Israeli historian's words, "a landmark in the chronicles of the Israel-Arab conflict and a symbol of the horrors of war."(1) It greatly stimulated Palestinian Arab refugee flight and appears to have been critical in the final decision of the Arab states to intervene directly in Palestine in 1948 to thwart the creation of the state of Israel. The Deir Yassin incident, therefore, is intimately connected to the two main issues that have defined the Arab-Israeli conflict: the armed hostility to Israel by the Arab states and the enduring Palestinian refugee issue.
http://www.deiryassin.org/mh2001.html

Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the battle for the village, including women and children—some were shot, while others died when hand grenades were thrown into their homes.[2] Several villagers were taken prisoner and may have been killed after being paraded through the streets of West Jerusalem, though accounts vary.[3] Four of the attackers died, with around 35 injured.[4] The killings were condemned by the leadership of the Haganah—the Jewish community's main paramilitary force—and by the area's two chief rabbis. The Jewish Agency for Israel sent Jordan's King Abdullah a letter of apology, which he rebuffed.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:02 PM

I dunno- I kind of think they're self-feeding, self-perpetuting, Steve.
But you suggestion has merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 06:45 PM

I should like to suggest that we no longer feed the bobad/bruce/insanity trolls here. Not a lot of point. Men of reason, let's let the bugger die!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM

Here comes Carroll with his Nazi allusions again

But it's OK for BullshitBruce to play the Nazi card, right BooBad?

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 04:36 PM

These are two of the prisoners Israel is releasing as their part of the deal to resume peace talks:

South Africa has Nelson Mandela, Poland has John Paul II, and Burma has Aung San Suu Kyi: Though the measure isn't exact, one way to judge a nation is by looking at its heroes. So what does it say about a prospective state of Palestine that among its heroes is Salah Ibrahim Ahmad Mugdad?

Mugdad is among 104 prisoners Israel intends to release as part of a deal orchestrated by Secretary of State John Kerry to resume peace talks with the Palestinians. In 1993, Mugdad killed hotel security guard Israel Tenenbaum "by beating him in the head with a steel rod," according to the Times of Israel. Tenenbaum was 72 at the time of his murder.

Also being released is Salameh Abdallah Musleh, imprisoned for the murder of convenience-store owner Reuven David. "Abdallah, together with an accomplice, entered David's convenience store on May 20, 1991, bound David's arms and legs and beat him to death, before locking the store and fleeing the scene," the Times reports.

Ditto for other Palestinian prisoners. Every society has its criminals, psychotics and killers, and Israel is no exception. But it says something about the current Palestinian leadership that it has made the release of killers a condition of peace talks. It also says something about the moral values of too many Palestinians that they should treat the returning prisoners not as pariahs but as heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:27 PM

"What should happen to those evected - gas ovens maybe?"

Here comes Carroll with his Nazi allusions again - he just can't contain himself - it's like Peter Sellers' arm in Dr. Strangelove.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

Jim,

Israel, since 1948, has been willing to trade land for peace. They have given up land, but not had peace.

What do YOU think the Palestinians should have, and why? I gave my statement that those refugees that left when Israel was formed should have been absorbed by the other Arab nations, as the Jewish refugees from Arab lands were absorbed by Israel.

What right have the Palestinians to Israeli territory?

Does Israel have the right to demand a part of Jordan? If not, why not- THAT was part of the Mandate Palestine that was supposed to become the Jewish Homeland, by the treaty that ended WW 1. It was split off as the ARAB MOSLIM Homeland- so the Palestinians already have a state, of greater area than Israel and the West Bank.

YOU are the one putting people in ovens, not the Israelis. The Arab League declared it was going to destroy all the Jews in Israel, and when Israel defends itself, YOU complain. That indicates your support for genocide, as long as it is "only Jews" that are being killed.

The Palestinians who left Israel, refusing to stay in peace, can settle in some Arab nation- What right do they have for more, unless you give the same rights to those Jews driven out of Arab nations? Shouldn't the LARGER NUMBER of Jewish refugees get at least as much as you are demanding for the Palestinians? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:06 PM

In the light of you or your 'crawling mate's' refusal to answer one single salient point, and to establish just what level of Zionist fanatic we are dealing with;
What part of this territory do you believe the Palestinians do have a right to and why?
A silence will be ragarded as "none", in which case what the hell are the Israelis doing at a conference if it is not to accept the total surrender of Palestine into their hands?
What should happen to those evected - gas ovens maybe?
Jim Carr5oll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:40 PM

Back to the usual Greggie boy "Liberal" ad hominem attack.


Too bad reality gives him nothing valid to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM

Back to the usual BullshitBruce horseshit.

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:26 PM

But then, trust a "liberal" to keep two sets of rules, one for wht he agrees with and one for what he doesn't want to respond to.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM

Hey, Greggie boy,

Didn't you even read the OP?

IT brings up the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:22 PM

You certainly are to laugh at.

But you are the best that "Liberal" Mudcat seems to have.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 02:18 PM

Obviously GregF is not capable of reasonable discussion.

Reasonable discussion - like pitching the Klan and the Nazis around.

It is to laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:46 PM

Note to all:

GregF has stated in a previous thread that he considers the phrase "Black, and a Democrat" to be the same as "dumb Ni**er".

I hope that you are satisfied with him representing the Palestinian side here.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:41 PM

Obviously GregF is not capable of reasonable discussion.

But then, he is the Voice of "Liberal" Mudcat...

Reason is not expected of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:37 PM

I KNOW!!!!...All Israel has to do is declare all of it's citizens to be homosexual and then the 'so-called left' will rally behind them!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:20 PM

BeardedBullshit, welcome bacK! Hope you had a good few days rest; I'm sure it's exhausting for you to produce the mounds of horseshit you regularly splatter over this forum, and your stinking sewage was sorely missed by one and all, I'm sure.

But what has Herr Himmler's screed got to do with anything? Are you abandoning the Klan for the Nazis?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM

But then, it is nothing new.




"'To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory – Reichsfuehrer S.S. Heinrich Himmler"
2 November 1943

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM

Hey, Bobad,

You are making the mistake that Jews are humans. The ones here pushing for the Palestinians have already stated that Jews have no rights, and should be removed by whatever means that are available. The fact that a Palestinian Homeland WAS formed from
Mandate Palestine, and restricted to Moslim ONLY settlement, on the vast majority of the land that had been designated as a Jewish Homeland by the treaty ending WW 1 seems to be ignored- after all, if the Arabs want ALL the land, they should of course be given it. It is not like Jews are worth being fair to.

(SARCASM)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 11:17 AM

What about the West Bank lands grabbed from the Jews when they were expelled by the Jordanians? Conveniently ignored in this "discussion". Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 11:14 AM

Oh dear - yet another 'land-grabber apologist' busily ignoring the fact that there's a conference taking place at present and the Israeli's are hell bent on disrupting it.
Boo Boo won't - how about you addressing the fact that, if they get their way the conference will collapse leading to yet more bloodshed, Palestinian, Israeli and possibly they rest of us.
Won't hold my breath - you people don't go there, do you?
" like the KKK demanding that Richmond be turned over to them to rebuild the Confederacy. NC"
Why not - seems to have worked fine for the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 09:59 AM

Why are the pre-1967 borders so sacred? The Arab nations have never accepted them.

From 1948 to 1967, the Jordanian occupied West bank was NOT made into a Palestinian state- Although Jews were driven out and settlements of Moslims were put in ( no complaints about THOSE settlements, I note). No-one has ever said what the Jews driven out of there, and from other Arab lands, should be given. There were 820,000 Jews driven out of Arab nations ( the vast majority), and 640,00 Arab Moslims ( less than the number who stayed in Israel and became citizens) who left Israel.

The Jewish refugees were settled, the majority by Israel. The Palestinian Moslims were held in refugee camps BY THE ARAB NATION, and not allowed to settle, even in the Mandate Palestine Arab homeland of Jordan. Whose fault is that? Why should Israel be responsible for the Arab nations treatment of the Palestinian refugees?

IF the Palestinians "should" be given the West bank and Jerusalam, perhaps the Jews should be given Mecca, and Saudi Arabia.

The last set of borders accepted by the Arab nations were the 1924 division of Mandate Palestine into the Arab Moslim homeland of Trans-Jordan ( 77+% of the Mandate territory)
and the Jewish Homeland of the remainder. Jews were forbidden to settle in the Arab Moslim homeland.

When Jordan occupied the West Bank, from 1948 to 1967, Jews from any nations were prohibited from access to their most holy site, the Wailing Wall. Since 1967, the Arabs have retained access and control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalam, one of their holy sites.There is ZERO chance that the Israelis will give any part of Jerusalam to the Palestinians. Period.

The idea that the Palestinians should be able to get whatever part of Israel that they want is something like the KKK demanding that Richmond be turned over to them to rebuild the Confederacy. NC, sure, but Richmond???

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:58 AM

It's hard to have hope, especially for the future, with this kind of indoctrination going on and funded by the UNRWA no less:

"New video footage appears to show Palestinian children in summer camps run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) being taught that "Jews are the wolf," and that they will one day conquer Israeli cities by force."

"In another scene, a teacher is heard asking the students, "Do you want to return to Jaffa?" They respond enthusiastically, "Yes!" "Haifa?" "Yes!" "Nazareth?" "Yes!"

All these cities are inside modern sovereign Israel."

"....a burka-clad speaker in the report who tells a circle of young campers, "With God's help and our own strength we will wage war. And with education and Jihad we will return to our homes!"

"Her story soon takes a chilling turn. The Palestinians were having a nice barbecue on the beach when a wolf appeared, she recounts. "Who is the wolf?" the teacher asks. "The Jews! Isn't it true that the Jews are the wolf?"

"Who expelled us?" she asks the kids, who listen with rapt attention. "The Jews!" they yell energetically.

"I will defeat the Jews," a camper named Tayma tells the documentary crew. "They are a gang of infidels and Christians. They don't like Allah and do not worship Allah. And they hate us."

One young campers sums up, "The summer camp teaches us that we have to liberate Palestine."

Article

Video

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:41 AM

Some consequences of the Israeli settlements programme consequences, for Palestine, for Israel and for the world, as outlined in the Irish Times this morning
The article is accompanied by a cartoon showing Palestinian and Israeli negotiators sitting around a conference table around which two building workers are constructing a new houe. John Kerry is standing by saying "take no notice of them".
Don't suppose Boo Boo will respond to this nay more than he has responded to anything else – maybe 'The Stonegate Institute' has the answer!
Jim Carroll

Senior Palestinian official Yasser Abed Rabbo warned that Israel's determination to press ahead with settlement construction could torpedo the talks.
"Settlement expansion goes against the US administration's pledges and threatens to cause the negotiations' collapse. This settlement expansion is unprec¬edented. It threatens to make talks fail even before they've started," he said.

DELEGITIMISATION CAMPAIGN
Bloomberg columnist Jeffrey Goldberg quoted Mr Kerry warning Mr Netanyahu in recent weeks that if the current peace talks bear no fruit, Israel may soon be facing an interna¬tional delegitimisation cam¬ paign - in his words - "on ster¬oids". The recent decision by the European Union to cut all funds to any Israeli enterprise over the 1967 green line caused shock waves in Israel and was described by minister Tzipi Livni, who will head the Israeli ne¬gotiating team at the peace talks, as a wake-up call.
Mr Netanyahu's biggest fear is that a campaign to isolate and delegitimise Israel would erode Israel's ability to defend itself, particularly if it is forced to act unilaterally to stop Iran acquiring a nuclear bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 04:50 AM

I have always suported the creation of the state of Israel but have been saddened by their Govt policies ever since they invaded Lebanon which added to the instability of that fragile state. There are two "logical" solutions to the 2 state policy, neither of which would be accepted by the interested parties. Either the whole of the West Bank becomes a Palestinian state without any Israeli enclaves and an exchange of population on the scale of the Greek/Turkish 1920s solution, which would probably lead to civil war between Hamas and Fatah. OR Israeli takeover of all the West Bank with any Arabs not prepared to lives within an Israeli state moved to Jordan, which would probably destroy Jordan. The Gaza strip is a basket case and can never be viable and should be part of Israel, giving space for settlers from West Bank.
In reality, I fear that in the long term demographics will destroy Israel. The highest birth rates are among Palestinians and the Ultra Orthodox jews who don't recognise the state but live off its handouts, not working, only studying the Torah and not doing National Service. With fewer jews from the Diaspora choosing to move to Israel and the educated, liberal population having fewer children, their ability to withstand Arab pressures will decline. This might push them into the nuclear solution which is unthinkable.
To encourage/coerce peace negotiations, US should stop subsidising Israel. It was sensible as the state was being established, but no longer, Israel isn't a Third World country needing aid if it gives up its nuclear ambitions.

My 2 shekels.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:08 PM

That as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 02:06 PM

flexible pragmaitism I think they call it.

Oh, OK - gotcha, Jim. I thought it was adaptive pragmatism, tho.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:48 PM

"Extreme left wing? 'Scuse me? You been listening to Beck and Limbaugh again"
The odd thing it's an organisation that has been used at length by boo Boo and his buddies when they could extract just enough from it to score a point -one of those friends that suddenly becomes an enemy when they don't say the right things in the right way - flexible pragmaitism I think they call it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:06 PM

an extreme left-wing, anti-capitalist and anti-corporate organization, the Center for Media and Democracy.

Extreme left wing? 'Scuse me? You been listening to Beck and Limbaugh again? Or do you just not have a clue what you're talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:02 PM

By the way - if you continue calling me silly names I will have no alternative but to report you to the Jellystone Park Ranger - what would Yogi say?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM

I have the decency to answer questions when put to me and don't try to avoid them by skulking behind history or using self confessed Islamophobes and Zionist fascists as 'evidence'
I don't suppose you'd like to clarify that last piece of gibberish - thought not!
Jim Carroll