BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM

That article posted 17 Jul 14 - 09:24 PM
How the West Chose War in Gaza

is so artfully one-sided, it makes me question the legitimacy of the organization behind it.

The gist of the Nathan Thrall article bodily inserted into the thread is that Hamas, a terrorist organization which maintains power by violence on its political opponents and the threat of extra-judicial violence on the citizens of Gaza, was experiencing political weakness as a result of their mode of operations, hence sought to maintain their hold on power by seeking a rapprochement with the West Bank government. They got no support from the West because why encourage a bad actor, so they began - acting badly (euphemism for firing hundreds of rockets into civilian territory). But now it's the West's fault!
And no word on how they managed to collect thousands of deadly weapons in the time they were serving as Gaza's 'legitimate government'.

It's so surreal it should be laughable. "It's your fault for not stopping me from killing again!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:15 PM

Quite possibly - it's a pity they regard anybody who disagrees with their views and ambitions as 'GUILTY'

Again, completely untrue.
As a liberal democracy they have no single view or ambition.
All they want is for the bombardment of their people to stop.
That is a perfectly reasonable aspiration that every country in the world would share if subjected to such a bombardment.

Subject: more to my responsee at 10:AM
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

Musket, it seems my response to you this morning was incomplete. This is what I should have written:

Folk club = sectarian/nationalistic violence. I understand, musket. I understand musket.

If the nuance in punctuation eludes you, I'll post some English primers. Actually, no, I won't.

Also I think you need to learn to read. You said, "John on the sunset coast asked why I hadn't given an opinion on something fuck all to do with this thread..." John has never asked you that. John did note to Robobatic, last night, that certain persons (you included) had not commented on the Malaysian Airline shoot down; John offered a rhetorical opinion as to why that might be.

As to not participating on your thread opened today in the 9 o'clock hour, I thought,'what's the, use; there he goes again. The title says it all.' Have fun goading.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:46 PM

So, we congratulate Israel for not trying to kill too many.

How many innocent people can they kill then before we blush?   100? 1,000? 50,000?

Reminds me of tragedies and statistics....



John on the sunset coast asked why I hadn't given an opinion on something fuck all to do with this thread then got confused when I returned the favour. Sorry, I will make allowances for your lack of intellect in future.

Did you know, Gaza is on a sunset coast. Not that you can see the sunset for the plumes of black smoke and flashes of explosion. Not to mention the soldiers seeing how many notches they can add to their rifle stocks.

By the way, if Israel is the innocent aggrieved nation defending themselves, they need to airbrush out their provocations over the last few years. Google will do it for them if they ask nicely. The US press are doing it nicely already, largely due to where their shareholders stand on such topics.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

"TRYING not to take innocent life"
Quite possibly - it's a pity they regard anybody who disagrees with their views and ambitions as 'GUILTY'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

My point is being overlooked: That there COULD be tens of thousands of dead and wounded who won't need to be told anything,they are alive, their loved ones live on.
They should be doing everything they can to get rid of the yoke of Hamas which is using them as a vast human shield.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

because Israel is TRYING not to take innocent life.

Tell that to the parents of thhose kids on the beach & the other 200-odd dead & thousands of (some mortally) wounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

"Could it be that that thread does not contain the words Israel and/or Palestine"
No - it means that some of us have lives beyond the desktop and only have time to involve ourselves in threads on which we have a direct interest and a little knowledge.
Can't recall seeing your name (whatever it is) on many of the music threads - which is the prime purpose of this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:18 PM

I brought up the shoot-down of the Malaysian 777 with almost 300 souls aboard as a comparison of how many truly innocent lives are taken in a single incident.

I think the word 'errant' was appropriate because it was an unnecessary act regardless of which party fired the missile. A plane at 33000 feet was unlikely to be a valid party to either side (I leave which party to the other thread).

The point here was that Israel is swinging a mighty scythe, metaphorically speaking, and harvesting very few grains, because Israel is TRYING not to take innocent life. Over in eastern Ukraine the taking of much life happened almost casually.

Hamas is launching its thousands of rockets with every intention of doing harm, with a range that now allows them to take out those on the West Bank. They were caught exiting a tunnel onto Israeli territory with every intention of doing harm to Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM

bobad: "If Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they will find Israel will turn out to be more of a friend than a foe in their quest for lasting peace and prosperity."

BTW, who the fuck does 'Hamas' think they are to decide if Israel should exist, or not??...(Well, besides being puppets for Iran)...and for them, Israels won't exist..because Hamas will be pulverized to death, and still not get it!!...and neither will the 'so-called liberals' who think that any country that has a national identity, must be a 'right wing conspiracy'!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

Folk club = sectarian/nationalistic violence. I understand, musket.

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon!"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM

John on the sunset coast. I notice that you have not made a single comment on the permathread of our local folk club.

Probably because it didn't contain the word Hamas....

When you are defending the indefensible, don't compound it by dragging in the next item of sad horror and trying to demonise decent people down to your own pathetic level.


Mudcat can be entertaining sometimes, even on such an awful serious topic. I love it when you get idiots and shallow fools who love to polarise opinion, despite no credentials beyond right wing press cuttings and a reactionary mindset. It restores your cynicism in the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

If Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they will find Israel will turn out to be more of a friend than a foe in their quest for lasting peace and prosperity.

Alas, it will take a long time for any such view to prevail.

But unless Palestinians start electing leaders motivated by goodwill and a sincere desire for peace with Israel through compromise, they will continue to see tragedy inflicted on themselves.

For now, we all must hope the current conflict will burn itself out, with the least toll of innocents on both sides.​

Farzana Hassan: Hamas must abandon its hatred of Jews

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:31 PM

"Despite having won the last elections, in 2006, Hamas decided to transfer formal authority to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah."

Hamas won a PLURALITY (not majority) in a LEGISLATIVE election in 2006. The directly elected President (in 2005) was (and remained) Abbas. The election results were 44% for Hamas and 41% for Fatah. After Hamas failed to form a government, about a year after the election, Hamas and Fatah reached a power-sharing unity government under the Mecca Agreement (brokered by the Saudis). Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover.

Nice try, Nathan, but no cigar!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:19 PM

The sad part is I expected nothing from you.

Look on the bright side, John - at least you weren't disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM

Greg F--

1) I was RESPONDING to a post at THIS thread; you did realize that, no?
2) The sad part is I expected nothing from you. But a bit of sympathy for a group other than Hamas, or anger at a group other than Israel might have been nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:40 PM

And now, a brief Musical Interlude

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM

What comment would you like me to make on the Ukraine incident, John? Shit happens?

PS: You're on the wrong thread for discussing the Ukraine incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:31 PM

"One ERRANT (emph. mine) missile and almost 300 civilian deaths over Donetsk region Ukraine."

Have you information other than what various US media have been reporting all day? 'Errant' suggests that the cause is not known as to who, how and why that missle shot down the plane, and was not really intended to bring down that particular plane.

I note that to this point Greg F., nor musket, nor Steve Shaw, nor Jim Carroll have commented on that incident. Could it be that that thread does not contain the words Israel and/or Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:24 PM

How the West Chose War in Gaza
Gaza and Israel: The Road to War, Paved by the West

By NATHAN THRALL, JULY 17, 2014


JERUSALEM — AS Hamas fires rockets at Israeli cities and Israel follows up its extensive airstrikes with a ground operation in the Gaza Strip, the most immediate cause of this latest war has been ignored: Israel and much of the international community placed a prohibitive set of obstacles in the way of the Palestinian "national consensus" government that was formed in early June.

That government was created largely because of Hamas's desperation and isolation. The group's alliance with Syria and Iran was in shambles. Its affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt became a liability after a July 2013 coup replaced an ally, President Mohamed Morsi, with a bitter adversary, Gen. Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. Hamas's coffers dried up as General Sisi closed the tunnels that had brought to Gaza the goods and tax revenues on which it depended.

Seeing a region swept by popular protests against leaders who couldn't provide for their citizens' basic needs, Hamas opted to give up official control of Gaza rather than risk being overthrown. Despite having won the last elections, in 2006, Hamas decided to transfer formal authority to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah. That decision led to a reconciliation agreement between Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization, on terms set almost entirely by the P.L.O. chairman and Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas.

Israel immediately sought to undermine the reconciliation agreement by preventing Hamas leaders and Gaza residents from obtaining the two most essential benefits of the deal: the payment of salaries to 43,000 civil servants who worked for the Hamas government and continue to administer Gaza under the new one, and the easing of the suffocating border closures imposed by Israel and Egypt that bar most Gazans' passage to the outside world.

Yet, in many ways, the reconciliation government could have served Israel's interests. It offered Hamas's political adversaries a foothold in Gaza; it was formed without a single Hamas member; it retained the same Ramallah-based prime minister, deputy prime ministers, finance minister and foreign minister; and, most important, it pledged to comply with the three conditions for Western aid long demanded by America and its European allies: nonviolence, adherence to past agreements and recognition of Israel.

Israel strongly opposed American recognition of the new government, however, and sought to isolate it internationally, seeing any small step toward Palestinian unity as a threat. Israel's security establishment objects to the strengthening of West Bank-Gaza ties, lest Hamas raise its head in the West Bank. And Israelis who oppose a two-state solution understand that a unified Palestinian leadership is a prerequisite for any lasting peace.

Still, despite its opposition to the reconciliation agreement, Israel continued to transfer the tax revenues it collects on the Palestinian Authority's behalf, and to work closely with the new government, especially on security cooperation.

But the key issues of paying Gaza's civil servants and opening the border with Egypt were left to fester. The new government's ostensible supporters, especially the United States and Europe, could have pushed Egypt to ease border restrictions, thereby demonstrating to Gazans that Hamas rule had been the cause of their isolation and impoverishment. But they did not.

Instead, after Hamas transferred authority to a government of pro-Western technocrats, life in Gaza became worse.

Qatar had offered to pay Gaza's 43,000 civil servants, and America and Europe could have helped facilitate that. But Washington warned that American law prohibited any entity delivering payment to even one of those employees — many thousands of whom are not members of Hamas but all of whom are considered by American law to have received material support from a terrorist organization.

When a United Nations envoy offered to resolve this crisis by delivering the salaries through the United Nations, so as to exclude all parties from legal liability, the Obama administration did not assist. Instead, it stood by as Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, called for the envoy's expulsion on the grounds that he was "trying to funnel money" to Hamas.

Hamas is now seeking through violence what it couldn't obtain through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets. Patients needing medical care couldn't reach Egyptian hospitals, and Gazans paid $3,000 bribes for a chance to exit when Egypt chose to open the border crossing.

For many Gazans, and not just Hamas supporters, it's worth risking more bombardment and now the ground incursion, for a chance to change that unacceptable status quo. A cease-fire that fails to resolve the salary crisis and open Gaza's border with Egypt will not last. It is unsustainable for Gaza to remain cut off from the world and administered by employees working without pay. A more generous cease-fire, though politically difficult for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, would be more durable.

The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement. The road out of the crisis is a reversal of that policy.

*************8

Nathan Thrall is a senior analyst at the International Crisis Group covering Gaza, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:21 PM

Over a thousand Israeli air sorties and almost 200 deaths Hamas militia and civilians combined.
One errant missile and almost 300 civilian deaths over Donetsk region Ukraine.

The Israelis have been mighty careful to limit casualties. One would think that with total control of the air they could make EVERY sortie have the kind of casualty kind the innocents experienced over the Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:04 PM

"The Toll In Gaza"

Thanks to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM



The Toll In Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM

The truth, Goofus? That I'm a Nazi and an anti-Semite among other bits of horseshit? His "truth"[sic], and possibly your "truth"[sic], but not THE truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM

As I've posted before, instead of trying to run Beardedbruce out of town, because of his posts, which ARE substantiated, you should be thanking him!! He is, in fact, telling you the truth, which even if it does, intrude into your biases, IS the truth, with included sources....and THAT trumps unlearned, biased prejudices, that come across as sheer hatred, not just to Israel, but a complete disregard for reality!!!!

Let the truth be told, and let the chips fall where they may.....not throw cow-chips out everywhere, and let idiots eat them up and scatter bullshit, everywhere!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM

I wish the best for ... all the good people of Gaza

Too late, Boo........

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

Former U.S. President Bill Clinton laid the blame for Palestinian civilian casualties squarely on the heads of Hamas leaders, saying their policy was designed to kill Palestinians. Interviewed on India's NDTV, Clinton was blunt in his assessment:

    Hamas was perfectly well aware of what would happen if they started raining rockets into Israel. They fired one thousand and they have a strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own civilians so that the rest of the world will condemn them.

    They (Israel) know when Hamas attacks them that Hamas has set up a situation which politically it can't lose, because they (Israelis) can say 'well if I attack them back they always hide behind civilians and I'll kill civilians, and if I don't we'll look like fools letting somebody shoot a thousand rockets at us and not responding.'

    In the short and medium term Hamas can inflict terrible public relations damage by forcing (Israel) to kill Palestinian civilians to counter Hamas. But it's a crass strategy that takes all of our eyes off the real objective which is a peace that gets Israel security and recognition and a peace that gets the Palestinians their state.

Clinton is just the latest world leader to publicly support Israel and condemn Hamas, following statements by U.S. President Barack Obama, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, British Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President Francois Hollande, and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

Bill Clinton: Hamas' "Crass Strategy" is to Kill Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:51 PM

UNRWA Strongly Condemns Placement of Rockets in School
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza

UNRWA

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM

I feel truly sorry for all involved. As with all conflicts, I suspect each side feels that their side has "the high ground". Each side seem to be acting like "cornered animals". Loss of life is most likely one result-the sooner an agreement to diffuse the situation, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

This is a perfect chance to liberate the people of Gaza from their oppressors, Hamas. I wish the best for the IDF and all the good people of Gaza - stay safe!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

Israeli ground operations into Gaza begin.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

"YET YOU still do so- bringing up Palestinians killed because of the illegal rocket attacks by Hamas upon Israeli civilians."
The Holocaust occurred in the first half of the last century - the murder of Palestinians is an ongoing fact
Can it be a coincidence tat the nearer Israel gets to slaughtering the people of norther Gaza, the louder get the shrieks of "Antisemitism" from their apologists?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

"It is therefore vital to prevent and eradicate all forms of participation of children in hostilities. The Statute of the International Criminal Court is an important element contributing to a better respect of humanitarian law provisions as regards a ban on recruitment and participation of child ren in armed conflicts. The Statute includes, in its list of war crimes, the acts of conscripting or enlisting children under the age of 15 in the armed forces or in armed groups, and making them actively take part in hostilities. It should be noted that the concept of participation must extend both to direct participation in fighting and to active involvement in duties or activities related to combat, such as reconnaissance, spying, sabotage, and the use of children as decoys, messengers or at military checkpoints. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM

GregF has a real problem dealing with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:23 PM

from the ICRC

"In areas where civilians are concentrated, clearly-separated military objectives should n ot be treated as a single military objective. Unless circumstances do not permit it, each party to the conflict shall give an effective advance warning prior to an attack which may affect the civilian population.

In some cases, civilians and prisoners are used as human shields to protect military objectives from attack. In others, the red cross or the red crescent emblem is used to mislead the enemy and conduct military actions. Simulation of protected status by using the red cross, the red crescent, UN or other protective emblems are considered as acts of perfidy, amounting to a grave breach of humanitarian law."


Now tell me again WHICH side is acting according to International Law?


Israel, which is warning about, and even stopping attacks when evidence is available that there are civilians still there,

Or Hamas, which rains antipersonnel rockets over 5 million of the 8 million Israelis without warning, and tells its own people not to evacuate designated military targets?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

BB seems to be having another bout of serial postarrhoea. Must have run out of paregoric & kaolin.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:58 PM

So, Steve, have you heard ANY reports from Gaza about those killed BY THEIR OWN ROCKETS?

Since THAT information is censored by Hamas, I doubt if you will get anything near a balanced view.



"The Israeli military said one rocket hit the southern city of Ashkelon and another fell short and landed inside Gaza"


And these anti-personnel rockets caused NO reported damage, while any Israeli bullet seeks out the nearest civilian…


"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

"Talk about bringing a forum into total disrepute."


No, GregF and Jim have already done that.

You seem to be trying to join them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

IF Jim can make the statements that he has for the last several years, and not be criticized, then MY statements stand as stated- If you don't like them, SHOW ME YOU ARE NOT DOING AS I STATE.

As far as I can tell FROM YOUR POSTS, my statements are accurate.

If they are too much for you to read, TRY TO APPLY THAT STANDARD TO WHAT YOU ARE POSTING FIRST.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

JERUSALEM — More than 40 rockets from the Gaza Strip whizzed into Israel starting at 3 p.m. Thursday, precisely marking the designated end of the five-hour halt to hostilities both sides had agreed upon to provide a "humanitarian window" to residents after nine days of fighting.

The Israeli military said one rocket hit the southern city of Ashkelon and another fell short and landed inside Gaza, as sirens again sounded repeatedly across southern Israel. A military spokesman said Israel had not immediately resumed strikes on Gaza.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

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The pause, requested by the United Nations, came after Israel foiled a predawn attack in which about 13 Palestinian militants emerged from a tunnel near a kibbutz, and as negotiations toward a Cairo-brokered cease-fire deal continued. It was interrupted by a brief flurry of mortar fire that fell in open ground near the Gaza border, but otherwise the quiet held from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m., allowing Gaza residents to safely come out of their homes to shop and survey the damage the battle had wrought.

Palestinian, Egyptian, Israeli and American officials said intense discussions were underway on terms for a cease-fire that could take effect as soon as 6 a.m. Friday, but none was willing to be quoted by name. A high-level Israeli delegation returned from Cairo, where President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority and Tony Blair, the envoy of the so-called Quartet of Middle East peacemakers, met Wednesday with President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt.

"The effort to achieve an end of the violence is ongoing," said one senior Israeli official. "We're not there yet."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:33 PM

You and the Hamas leaders will not be happy until there are enough dead Palestinian children to bury Israel under.

Of all the disgraceful posts ever made on this forum, this one truly takes the biscuit. I trust the moderators are fighting this bloke tooth and nail behind the scenes. Talk about bringing a forum into total disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

The only bit that makes sense in this thread lately is where Steve calls beardedbruce scum.

If beardedbruce can show where anyone here said anything remotely like not wishing to see live Jews, I would be grateful.

When you haven't got an argument or are secretly ashamed of your partisan stance, you put words into the mouths of others and cut and paste subjective diatribe that no fucker bothers reading.

Most people are capable of reading or hearing news and articles and coming to their own conclusions. I notice the less savoury characters on Mudcat seem to borrow their opinions and then berate those intelligent enough to come to their own view and articulate it.

The only people mentioning Jews are you racist twats. You love to interchange Hamas, Muslim and Palestinian. Then assume others do similar.

Pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:04 PM

Jerusalem (AFP) - The UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA said Thursday it was investigating after finding 20 rockets hidden in one of its vacant schools in the Gaza Strip.

It condemned the incident as a "flagrant violation" of international law and said the rockets had been removed and the "relative parties" informed.

"Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said in a statement.

"UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations," it continued.

"This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law."

It said the incident was the first of its kind, warning that it "endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA's vital mission."

The statement said UNRWA "informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects."

"UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation."

Israel regularly accuses Hamas and other Gaza militants of using civilian installations to store and launch rockets, including during the current conflict that began on July 8.

Gaza militants have fired hundreds of rockets since the latest violence began, with Israel launching punishing air strikes that have killed 221 people and forced thousands to flee.

Around 22,000 people who have fled their homes have taken refuge in UNRWA schools, but the one where the rockets were found was not being used.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

Abbas and other Arab leaders demand that Israel stop striking Gaza, but not that Hamas stop shooting rockets at Israel. So the United States should demand they correct that imbalance.

The most striking aspect of ongoing Arab reactions to the latest Hamas-Israeli clashes is an act of omission: the Palestinian Authority (PA) and President Mahmoud Abbas are not calling for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israeli cities. This contradicts Abbas's recent declarations that the new PA government and its Hamas backers would honor past PA commitments regarding nonviolence against Israel. A new statement from Abbas's office claims that "the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves by all legitimate means" against "Israeli escalation."

In today's latest twist, Abbas and the PA are not just calling for Israel to stop its airstrikes against Hamas targets inside Gaza. According to several plausible press reports, they are also threatening to haul Israel before the International Criminal Court for the "war crime" or "genocide" of responding to Hamas rocket attacks. PA messaging, moreover, makes no effort to distinguish between the Hamas "political leadership" -- which signed the reconciliation agreement with the PA's ruling Fatah Party and may have attempted to restrain the initial rocket salvos -- and the Hamas "military wing," which some PA officials privately blame for trying to torpedo reconciliation by firing indiscriminately at Israel.

The official messages from Fatah, of which Abbas is also the chairman, are even more inflammatory, explicitly praising the rocket fire and threatening all Israelis with death and destruction. Ironically, pro-Hamas Palestinian media are taking the PA to task for offering mere verbal support, even as it largely strives to maintain calm and coordination with Israel in the West Bank territory it controls.

The Arab League and the governments of Qatar and Syria have issued similarly one-sided statements, demanding that Israel stop its "aggression "or "escalation" while failing to acknowledge that Hamas rocket fire provoked the latest conflict, or even to urge Hamas to desist. But none of this rhetoric has been matched with threats of direct action, and some of the pronouncements seem to shift the onus of taking action to others. For example, Arab League secretary-general Nabil al-Araby called for a UN Security Council emergency session to "stop Israel's aggressions," with no mention of Hamas responsibility.

Overall, Arab official and media commentary has been relatively sparse, likely due at least in part to the worse bloodshed besetting other countries in the region. But coverage of Gaza may well increase over time, as it has in past episodes.

Official statements from Egypt and Jordan have been somewhat more balanced. Jordan's foreign minister Nasser Judeh urged Israel to "stop its escalation immediately," but also called for "the restoration of complete calm and avoidance of targeting civilians" and even for "the return to direct negotiations." The office of Egyptian president Abdul Fattah al-Sisi called for "an immediate ceasefire" out of concern for "the safety of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip."

Since Sisi took over, however, Cairo has downgraded its contacts with Hamas; and that decision, while constructive overall, would likely have the unintended consequence of making any Egyptian effort to broker a ceasefire less effective than in the past. And there is no sign this time that Egypt is actively pursuing a deal on reopening its Rafah crossing into Gaza, except for emergency medical and other small-scale humanitarian purposes. A more expansive approach to reopening Rafah might make a ceasefire more acceptable to both Hamas and Israel, as on some previous occasions.

Finally, high-level U.S. statements, from President Obama on down, have so far not asked Abbas to account for the PA's failure to oppose the Hamas rocket fire. Rather, these statements appear well behind the curve, focusing on past peace talks or the recent kidnapping episodes instead of dealing with the immediate military crisis. On Tuesday, the State Department spokesperson "strongly" condemned "the deliberate targeting of civilians by terrorist organizations in Gaza," adding that the United States "certainly supports Israel's right to defend itself against these attacks." Yet she added that "both sides" should "de-escalate tensions on the ground," and that Abbas faces "limitations" on his influence in Gaza. In this urgent new situation, Washington should unconditionally demand that Hamas stop shooting rockets into Israel -- and that the PA fulfill its longstanding commitment to precisely that position.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

"Crouching behind the dead to defend atrocities gets more and more disgusting, the longer you do it."

YET YOU still do so- bringing up Palestinians killed because of the illegal rocket attacks by Hamas upon Israeli civilians.


You and the Hamas leaders will not be happy until there are enough dead Palestinian children to bury Israel under.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:40 AM

"EU definition."
Had the U.N. or the European Union mattered one damn to the Israelis they wouldn't have sabotaged the peace talks that they have, or blockading Gaza, or bombarding civilians......
They would certainly not be threatening the lives and homes of 100,000 non combatants, as they are doing at the present time.
Is to criticise Israel is Antisemitic, a large slice of the world, including a large and growing number of Jews are Antisemites.
Crouching behind the dead to defend atrocities gets more and more disgusting, the longer you do it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

A recent, credible poll shows that most Gazans oppose Hamas policies and leaders alike, and favor a ceasefire with Israel.
Yesterday's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities.

Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether.

These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent.

This is the only credible Palestinian poll taken since the mid-June West Bank kidnapping incident, Israel's subsequent searches and arrests, and the start of the current crisis (for more on the survey, see PolicyWatch 2276, "New Palestinian Poll Shows Hardline Views, But Some Pragmatism Too").

GAZANS WANTED A CEASEFIRE EVEN AS HAMAS STARTED FIRING ROCKETS
As tensions mounted and Hamas and other Gazan factions began to step up rocket fire last month, the people of that territory were heavily in favor of a ceasefire -- 70 percent of the poll respondents agreed or strongly agreed with the statement "Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel in both Gaza and the West Bank." This attitude is corroborated by the 73 percent of Gazans who said Palestinians should adopt "proposals for (nonviolent) popular resistance against the occupation."

Similarly, when asked if Hamas should accept Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas's position that the new unity government renounce violence against Israel, a clear majority (57 percent) answered in the affirmative. The responses to all three questions clearly indicate that most Gazans reject military escalation. Attitudes may have shifted since the poll due to anger at Israeli airstrikes, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the Gazan public still supports a ceasefire.

HAMAS FAILING TO DELIVER
The poll also demonstrates that Gazans are unhappy with Hamas governance -- on multiple levels. A large majority (71 percent) considered crime to be a "significant" problem. Two-thirds said that another significant problem was official corruption. Moreover, a large majority (78 percent) found the "presence of Palestinian militias that are not organized under the formal security structure" to be at least a "moderate" problem.

In light of this dissatisfaction with Hamas security forces and administration, most respondents favored the prospect of the PA taking over Gaza. A remarkable 88 percent agreed with the statement "The PA should send officials and security officers to Gaza to take over administration there" -- including two-thirds who "strongly" agreed.

HAMAS LEADERS HAVE MEAGER POLITICAL SUPPORT
Also very striking, and contrary to common misperception, is the fact that Hamas did not gain politically from the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers that sparked the current crisis last month. Asked who should be the president of Palestine in the next two years, a solid majority in Gaza named either Abbas or other leaders affiliated with the Fatah Party. In stark contrast, Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal rated a combined total of just 15 percent support.

MAJORITY OF GAZANS WANT ISRAELI JOBS
The Gazan economy has receded over the past year as unemployment climbed to around 40 percent. Egypt's closure of multiple smuggling tunnels and the Fatah-Hamas dispute over post-reconciliation salaries have only exacerbated this dire economic situation.

The results of the June poll go even further than these indicators, showing that Gazans would be willing to look to Israel for their livelihood. Respondents overwhelmingly (82 percent) said they "would like to see Israel allow more Palestinians to work in Israel." Still more poignantly, a majority (56 percent) said they "would be personally willing to work in Israel if there was a good, high-paying job." Thus, Gazans actually favored some form of normalization with Israel in order to find work.

POLICY IMPLICATIONS
The June survey demonstrates the sharp contrast between what most Gazans want and what their Hamas government continually does. The group's popularity was at a low point as the current crisis began, and there is no evidence that it has rebounded.

The poll results show that the people of that hard-pressed territory want a ceasefire and even economic opportunity in Israel -- and that they overwhelmingly reject Hamas policies and leaders alike. These fundamental facts should help guide the U.S. government and its regional allies as they search not just for a ceasefire, but also for longer-term economic and political prescriptions for Gaza's fate.



Read more: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire#When:15:54:31Z#ixzz37jwaY6RP

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:56 AM

It is NOT dead Muslims that bother some here, but live Jews.


PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE.

SOME here have expressed that they have a problem with the FACT that not as many Jews are being killed as Muslims. That bothers them

Many here that have commented on Israeli "killings" of Palestinians had no problem when it was other Muslims killing far more Muslim civilians. It is ONLY when Israel is involved that they seem to care about Muslims. THEN they cry their "tears' and bemoan the loss of even a single life ( except when it is Jewish).




"I should like to suggest that you confine your "opinion" to what is being said and is not, instead, directed at the person"

Ye, I DO have an opinion about those here WHO HAVE EXPRESSED views I think indicate bigotry or inhumanity, and who shown support for the war crimes of Hamas.

WHAT THEY SAY indicates the point that they ARE ANTI-SEMITIC according to the EU definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

No, GregF is our resident Nazi.

Look at his stated opinion of people who are "Black, and a Democrat"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM

You are implying that people who disagree with you are antisemitic.

Not implying, stating it overtly. Next he'll be calling you a Nazi, with BooBad cheering him on.