BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:03 PM

Neither Britain nor Ireland nor Israel could allow nomadic shepherds to camp where they choose.
That is not persecution, and you can not deny that Bedouin Israelis are a flourishing and thriving community envied by their brethren in neighbouring lands.
It is just a convenient stick to beat Jews with.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:09 PM

"All developed countries have to restrict nomadic lifestyles."
why do they?
Britain is slowly coming terms with the fact with the fact that nomadic groups exist and have to be catered for.
They started to provide acceptable halting sites with adequate facilities situated in places where Travellers could integrate into communities and still carry on their traditional life-style - they even passed laws to make persecution illegal - it was working fine until the Major Government scrapped the 1968 Caravan and Camping Act
The Bedouins don't even pose a problem in the way British Travellers once did - they have created their own communities to enable them to live in the same way they have for centuries
The Israelis are tearing those communities down, using chemicals and water cannons (there goes your riot-control equipment, which I have no doubt you are about to defend again) in some cases to do so, and evicting the rightful inhabitants into ghettos in order to create Islali Apartheid-style communities - a bunch of fascists - just like those are who support them.
You now appear to be moving away from your claim that Israel does not persecute nomads, to saying it is ok because everybody does it.
Another example of open support for racial and ethnic persecution -
You really are a little goose-stepper.
Keep it up - more for the CV
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:04 PM

Of course you do not really care about persecution.
You are completely unmoved by the far worse persecution driving ancient communities to annihilation and extinction that I am trying to get discussed on another thread.
The difference is you can't blame Jews for that persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 02:05 PM

All developed countries have to restrict nomadic lifestyles.
The Bedouin Israelis are flourishing and thriving, and much better off than their brethren elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:00 PM

Repetition of a lie - proven as being such by the recent disturbances currently being reported, doesn't alter a ******* thing, but it does underline your own dishonesty.
Repetition of a lie immediately after been given unequivocal proof is indicative og galloping imbecility.
Moving nomads into ghettos where they are no longer able to follow their tradition occupations and life-styles is ethnic cleansing in anybody's book but yours apparently.
Doing so against their will is State Fascism.
Doing so in order to make room for Israeli settlers and creating ghettos of single ethnic groups is Apartheid - a fact that has been protested against by Israelis and non-Israelis.
You appear to be running true-to-form on at least three threads concurrently at the present time Keith - keep it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM

"Bedouin are not "ethnic cleansed" in Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:40 AM

Bedouin are not "ethnic cleansed" in Israel.
Unlike the Egyptian Bedouin, they have full citizenship rights and protection under the law.
The community is flourishing and thriving, and they are the fastest growing population group in the whole world.
Bedouin elsewhere would gladly change places.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:01 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/israel-negev-bedouins-day-of-rage
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/
http://forward.com/articles/189828/desert-towns-struggle-shows-pitfalls-of-israels-po/?p=all

A United Nations committee has called for the withdrawal of the draft law that would move 30,000 Bedouin living in the Negev to permanent, existing Bedouin communities. Furthermore, the United Nations human rights chief urged Israel to reconsider a proposed law that would result in the demolition of up to 35 Bedouin villages, displacing as many as 40,000 members of these communities from their ancestral homes. "If this bill becomes law, it will accelerate the demolition of entire Bedouin communities, forcing them to give up their homes, denying them their rights to land ownership, and decimating their traditional cultural and social life in the name of development," Ms. Pillay said. According to the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, the Law for the Regulation of the Bedouin Settlement in the Negev is discriminatory and would legalize racist practices. Further critics of Prawer Plan include an independent human rights organization and legal center, Adalah Adalah which works to promote and defend the rights of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, 1.2 million people, or 20% of the population, as well as Palestinians living in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The center describes the Bill - which was approvedby the Israeli Knesset on 25 June 2013 with 43 votes for and 40 votes against, as discriminatory. It adds that the Bill calls for the mass expulsion of the Arab Bedouin community in the Naqab (Negev) desert in the south of Israel. If fully implemented, the Prawer-Begin Plan will result in the destruction of 35 "unrecognized"Arab Bedouin villages, the forced displacement of up to 70,000 Arab Bedouin citizens of Israel, and the dispossession of their historical lands in the Naqab. Despite the Arab Bedouin community's complete rejection of the plan and strong disapproval from the international community and human rights groups, the Prawer Plan is happening now. Adalah further elaborates that Prawer-Begin Bill is an unacceptable proposition that entrenches the state's historic injustice against its Bedouin citizens.
The European Parliament heavily criticized the plan.[9] In January 2012 hundreds of people protested the Prawer Plan, calling for the relocation of about 30,000 Beduins to recognized villages, in front of the Beersheba courthouse.[10] In September 2013 both Human Rights Watch and the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) issued statements condemning Israel's ongoing destruction of Palestinian homes and other structures, particularly in the occupied West Bank and the Negev desert in southern Israel.[citation needed]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:51 AM

There have been a number of massacres of the refugees held in those camps for seventy years by their Arab jailers.
They were all committed by various Arab militia.

Bedouin are not "ethnic cleansed" in Israel.
Unlike the Egyptian Bedouin, they have full citizenship rights and protection under the law, and they are a thriving community.
They are the fastest growing population group in the whole world.

Israel has never used chemical weapons on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:37 AM

"Ascribing crimes like Sabra and Shatila, chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing of nomads to Jews rather the the Israeli regime is as anti-Semitic a it gets."

Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:19 AM

To attribute the crimes of Israel in pursuit of its Apartheid-based policy of expansionism, criticised by Israelis and non Israelis, The United Nations, and peoples worldwide, to Jews, and not the various Israeli regimes, is the deepest form of Anti-Semitism imaginable   
If to criticise Sabra/Shatila, Bedouin ethnic cleansing, the persecution and humiliation of an impoverished people, the use of chemical weapons in hospitals and schools... and the many other crimes carried out by the Israeli's and protected by U.S. vetoes, is Anti-Semitic, the we live in a world populated by Anti-Semites, including by Anti-Semitic Jews.
The documented history of the Israeli state, over 100 vetoes protecting Israeli behaviour and a recent documentary film based on interviews with half a dozen ex heads of Mossad (one of whom pointedly stopped himself from comparing the present Israli leadership to the Nazis), are all unquestionable evidence of Israel's terrorist and human rights record.
"Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim."
For me, this would be evidence enough on its own.
Thank you for summing up the case for the prosecution so perfectly Keith - guilty as charged.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:52 PM

But if you continue to argue using antisemitic terms,

How, precisely, is opposition to the atrocious policies of the present Israeli government "antisemetic"? And, once again, are those Jewish Israeli citizens who oppose these government policies also "antisemitic"?

Give me a fuckin' break, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:21 PM

"I believe that most, if not all, of you are not antisemites."

There are some who, by most definitions except their own, definitely are.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM

Now that the "antisemitism" genie is out of the bottle, I refer you to 'non-Jewish' sources and definitions of that term. Many of the anti-Israel posters, here, have written many things that fit the definition, most especially when calling for the delegitimization of Israel. This has been a frequent suggestion at Mudcat over the past years and topics.

The three sites below are representative in defining antisemitism. The Otttawa Protocol has been adopted by many nations, I believe.

http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism/

http://2001-2009.state.gov/g/drl/rls/56589.htm

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm

I believe that most, if not all, of you are not antisemites. But if you continue to argue using antisemitic terms, then what can the rest of us think of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:23 PM

Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim.

More fantasy and denial from the king of bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 02:59 PM

Neither Jews nor Israelis are guilty of any of those Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM

Ascribing crimes like Sabra and Shatila, chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing of nomads to Jews rather the the Israeli regime is as anti-Semitic a it gets.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 02:03 PM

You are being somewhat disingenuous, it seems to me.

And you, M, by equating the opposition of a sizeable number of folks both inside and outside Israel to the present government of Israel and its policies & tactics with "antisemitism" are being more than somewhat idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:37 AM

Calling John Kerry an "anti-semite" is shameful and part of the intimidation tactics of the Netanyahu dictatorship. It's the same tactics used to refer to those who disagreed with the "dictators" as "communists" and "terrorists". The Christian reactionaries should be ashamed of themselves for their role in advocating for the razing of the Aqsa Mosque and replacing it with the one they decide is biblical.



The BDS movement is actually pro-Israel attempting to save it from a ruthless regime that would make Israel a security threat to the rest of the world. It is being supported by many Jews or those with Jewish heritage who realize the insanity of the present Netanyahu/Sharon position. Haaretz has many articles about this and is often critical of the present regime, far more than the lock-step, robot-like pronouncements of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee, formerly known as the American Israeli Political Action Committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:30 AM

Hey, G, right back to you: The opposition of large numbers of Israeli citizens to their own government's, in many ways culpable, behaviour with regard to the settlement of the West Bank, is in no way incompatible with its exploitation by others [who may wear the cap if it fits] for anti-Israeli comment which may well fall within the definitions of antisemitism as postulated in 2005 by EUMC (The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia). You are being somewhat disingenuous, it seems to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 09:38 AM

Hey, M - see below re: all them antisemetic Israeli citizens, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 06:50 AM

About time
Jim Carroll

JOHN KERRY LABELLED 'ANTI SEMITE' FOR WARNING OF POSSIBLE BOYCOTT OF ISRAEL

John Kerry, the US secretary of state, triggered an angry backlash from Israeli leaders on Sunday after warning Israel faces an economic boycott if it failed to reach a peace accord with the Palestinians.
The uproar came as Mr Kerry held cordial talks with his Iranian counterpart, Mohammad Javad Zarif in Munich at which the pair vowed to intensify nuclear diplomacy.
Ministers in Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet accused Mr Kerry of effectively endorsing "anti-Semitic" efforts to impose sanctions on Israel by issuing the warning.
"The risks are very high for Israel," Mr Kerry told the conference. "People are talking about boycott. That will intensify in the case of failure.
"Do they want a failure that then begs whatever may come in the form of a response from disappointed Palestinians and the Arab community?"
Related Articles
While the US secretary of state's remarks were made against a backdrop of new EU regulations barring deals with Israeli businesses based in West Bank settlements, they provoked accusations that he was threatening Israel in on-going peace talks with the Palestinians.
Yuval Steinitz, the intelligence and strategic affairs minister and a close ally of Mr Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said America's top diplomat was "holding a gun to [Israel's] head".
"The things Kerry said are hurtful, they are unfair and they are intolerable," Mr Steinitz told reporters.
"Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with a gun to its head when we are discussing the matters which are most critical to our national interests."
Naftali Bennett, the industry minister and leader of the far-Right Jewish Home party, said: "We expect of our friends in the world to stand by our side against the attempts to impose an anti-Semitic boycott on Israel, and not to be their mouthpiece."
His comments were echoed by Adi Mintz, a senior official in the Settler's Council, who accused Mr Kerry of "an anti-Semitic initiative".
"The anti-Semites have always resorted to a very simple method - hit the Jews in their pockets," he told Israel's Channel 10 TV station.
Mr Netanyahu was more restrained, telling Sunday's cabinet meeting that efforts to impose a boycott were "immoral and unjust" and doomed to fail.
The apparently choreographed chorus of criticism drew a sharp response from the US state department, which denied that Mr Kerry - who is currently trying to draw up a framework agreement between Israel and the Palestinians - was backing an international embargo.
"His only reference to a boycott was a description of actions undertaken by others that he has always opposed ," said Jen Psaki, a state department spokeswoman.
"[Mr Kerry] expected opposition and difficult moments in the process, but he also expects all parties to accurately portray his record and statements."
The row overshadowed a meeting on Sunday between Mr Kerry and Mr Zarif, Iran's foreign minister, to discuss forthcoming talks on Tehran's nuclear programme, scheduled to resume in Vienna this month.
Mr Kerry told Mr Zarif that existing international embargoes would remain in place, despite an interim deal concluded in Geneva last November that gave Iran limited sanctions relief in exchange for suspending some of its nuclear activities. The upcoming talks are aimed at achieving a definitive long-term agreement.
Mr Zarif told the Munich conference that Iran had the political will to reached a "balanced" long-term agreement with the six world powers of America, Britain, France, Russia, China and Germany.
"I think the opportunity is there, and I think we need to seize it," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 06:26 AM

... or three, actually, Greg: add

just to spell it out for the benefit of the myopic

3. antisemitism...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:19 PM

BDS is just a new face for something that's been around for a very long time.

Two things, acttually, that have been atound for a long time, BooBad:

1. Common Sense

2. The need to fight oppression, WHATEVER the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 02:29 PM

"If we are to look at Israeli society, it is within the academic community that we've had the most progressive pro-peace views and views that have come out in favor of seeing us as equals…. If you want to punish any sector, this is the last one to approach."

— Al-Quds University President Sari Nusseibeh

The "BDS" or "Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions" movement advocates the demonization of Israel and her actions.

Supporters of BDS are waging a political, economic, cultural, and ideological campaign to delegitimize the State of Israel.

BDS proponents make a false analogy between democratic Israel and Apartheid South Africa so as to isolate and stigmatize Israel.

Advocates of BDS deny Israel the basic human right of self-defense and blame Israel alone for conflict in the region.

BDS supporters demand self-determination for the Palestinians but do not acknowledge the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their homeland, Israel.

BDS is just a new face for something that's been around for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM

I take it you must be a Republican Yaleie then, String?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 11:16 AM

Why BDS wins

Apartheid is the same whether in South Africa or Israel. You don't need any polls to realize this. I don't trust anything with the name Kennedy or Harvard attached to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM

Hey, BooBad & Co:

Being anti- the country of Israel and/or being anti- the government of Israel (both of which you mantain strenuously are not theocgratic)is hardly the being anti-Semitic. Or are you maintaining that the large number of Israeli citizens who oppose the shenanigans of the present government of Israel are anti-Semites as well?

Your usual bullshit, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:33 AM

I was about to say the same Mike, not as eloquently as you of course, but I didn't want to feed the anti-semite trolls and start another flame war. Sometimes you just have to speak out against blatantly hateful accusations because doing otherwise is tantamount to condoning them. The Harvard Kennedy School poll found 77% of Israeli Arabs saying that they would rather live in the state of Israel than anywhere else in the world. Arab villages in Israel which are being proposed for exchange in a land swap deal for Jewish owned land currently in the West Bank are refusing to become part of a Palestinian state, saying that want to remain in Israel. Some apartheid eh! Oh, and as for the Nazi allusion - that speaks for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:05 AM

Well, Keith: I have always suspected the blanket equating of anti-Israel views with antisemitism to be a disingenuous oversimplification; but there is nevertheless no doubt that antisemitism can sometimes become superficially respectable by disguising itself under an "Israel-is-not-above-criticism" cover. The answer to your question in the present instance can ∴ IMO only be 'antisemitism', pure & simple. No other explanation seems to me to cover the facts of the matter so cogently adduced in your post. Stringie, Jim, GF & the rest would do well to question the motivations for their attitudes & expressions.

But will they? Experentia docet, I greatly fear; so it seems unlikely, dunnit?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 03:26 AM

Of the other counties in the region, Israel is the most democratic and least dictatorial of them all, so why single them out?

Apartheid is about the treatment of minorities.
Of all the countries in the region, minorities get the best deal in Israel.
Christians for instance are being persecuted to extinction all over the region, except in Israel.
In Egypt, Bedouin are exiled to remote deserts, denied basic rights including employment rights and even citizenship, but not in Israel where they are flourishing and thriving.
Palestinians have full citizenship rights in Israel, but in neighbouring countries are still incarcerated in refugee camps after seventy years.
And then there is the Sunni/Shia sectarian violence in almost every country except Israel.
I ask again, of all the countries in the region, why have you singled them out for vilification?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM

No one wants to acknowledge it but as it was rampant in early South Africa, Israel is engaging in a policy of apartheid.

A hard-nosed, xenophobic, tribalistic, ultra-reactionary Netanyahu
has put the gullible US government into the untenable position of supporting another world war.

Expansionism was decried when the Nazi party did it but when the various dictators who are supported by a reactionary US government does it, it is justified as somehow the moral thing to do. A dictator is a dictator whether it's Assad, Pinochet, Noriega, Cici (in Egypt),
Putin, or Netanyahu with his henchman Sharon.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 06:05 PM

A demoralized view.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 05:01 PM

""Every day there are aerial bombings of cities. Each city is bombed three or four times by fighter planes," Firas, who defected from Assad's army to join the rebels fighting to topple him, said.

"Bashar [Assad] didn't take care of us. Here, in Israel, we are being taken care of. Bashar doesn't care about us, whereas Israel does. Bashar fires shells at us, he doesn't care about us at all."

Another patient, Latif, said, "They taught us about the Zionist enemy, the Zionist oppressor. But when we saw the Zionists, [we realized] they were nothing like what we'd been told. They're human beings just like us, human, and even more than that."

Read more: IDF allows first peek into secret Golan Heights field hospital | The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 06:49 PM

One of the biggest problems for the Israelis, as to signing on, is that it came down through Kerry, representing the U.S....and the credibility of the U.S., at this time, is in the toilet....(true story).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 06:09 PM

Hope Lives? Not as long as Netanyahu and his party live.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 01:48 PM

Hope lives:

"Despite the impression Netanyahu is trying to make, even his reservations on the American document won't ruin the framework. Netanyahu is about to say yes to the American outline, which requires dramatic Israeli concessions. He's still trying to play with words and engineer the document so that it won't break up his government, but the chances of that are slim."

Netanyahu close to accepting Kerry plan – and losing his coalition

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 10:22 AM

Secretary of State Kerry devoted most of his talk at Davos today to crafting a framework to resolve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict around the following prinicples:

"An independent state for Palestinians wherever they may be; security arrangements for Israel that leave it more secure, not less; a full, phased, final withdrawal of the Israeli army; a just and agreed solution to the Palestinian refugee problem; an end to the conflict and all claims and mutual recognition of the nation-state of the Palestinian people and the nation-state of the Jewish people."

He also predicted that a failure of the current round of talks would be catastrophic for both parties as well as for the US. He suggested that the UN had neither the ability or the credibility to grant the Palestinian aspiration for independence, and if they failed to achieve it in this round of negotiations with the Israelis, another opportunity would not be likely to arise in the near future. He warned that unilateral acts by either party could precipitate a downward spiral back to violent conflict.

With regard to the eventual complete withdrawal of Israeli troops he added that "the Israelis rightfully will not withdraw unless they know the West Bank will not become a new Gaza, and nobody can blame any leader of Israel for being concerned about that reality." He said that the US, Israel, Jordan and the Palestinians have discussed the creation at the border with Jordan, a "security structure that meets the highest standards anywhere in the world," one which would have the capacity to thwart "an individual terrorist or a conventional armed force."

He emphasized that both sides would gain from a peace agreement. Palestine would achieve independent statehood and the chance for economic prosperity. Israel would get diplomatic recognition and economic ties with the Arab and Muslim world. Estimates are that could result in a six percent increase in GDP per year for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM

Wounded Syrian couple treated in Israel

"We were surprised by the treatment and dedicated medical care we got in Israel," she said. "We hesitated coming to Israel, because we were taught to hate it. We were taught this is a brutal enemy state, but we learned that reality is different. People here have a conscience. Our enemy is in Syria, not in Israel. If only we could stay here."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:01 PM

I agree Bobad.

On the face of it, there is reason for hope, just as long as a two state solution doesn't mean that one state is partially occupied by forces of the other, or that part of the first is under constant siege by the other.

Such is the current position!

I would be interested in hearing just how much of Gaza's supply chain will still be controlled by Israel and whether Gaza will trade through its own ports.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:46 PM

Is there good news on the horizon?

"He may be getting somewhere, after all
John Kerry may be gradually persuading enough Israeli right-wingers that a Palestinian state is worth striving for"

The Economist

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 05:56 PM

On the eve of Kerry's handing an American two state proposal to both the Palestinian and Israeli governments, polls indicate that a majority of BOTH Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution. The poll in Palestine was conducted by Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah. The poll in Israel was. conducted by the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. 63% of Israelis and 53% of Palestinians support a permanent- settlement based on two states.

http://truman.huji.ac.il/.upload/Joint_press_December_2013%20%282%29.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:43 PM

That sounds like an agreement which could work Bobad, but I still have suspicions about the Israeli government's sincerity, and if such suspicion exists outside the area, those inside will take a lot of reassuring.

I sincerely hope it works, since it gives Palestine at least the illusion of sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM

DEBKA Weekly No. 616 of Dec. 20 was first to divulge the nine points of the unpublished draft Kerry planned to present to Israeli and Palestinian leaders this week. Since then, certain amendments were introduced - especially in relation to Israel's military presence in the Jordan Valley and Judea and Samaria. The document continues to be molded by Kerry's ongoing back-and-forth communications with the two parties.
Nevertheless, the nine points disclosed hereunder stand as the basic guidelines of the proposed US framework:

Israel hands over 92.8 pc of West Bank to Palestinians

1. Nearly all its content draws on the proposal Ehud Olmert, then Prime Minister, submitted to Abbas on Aug. 31, 2008, which he never accepted; nor was it approved by any Israeli authority.

2. Territory: Israel will annex 6.8% of the West Bank including the four main settlement blocs of Gush Etzion with Efrata; Maale Adummim; Givat Zeev;and Ariel, as well as all of the "settlements" of East Jerusalem and Har Homa - in exchange for the equivalent of 5.5% of Israeli territory.
3. The Safe Passage: The territorial link between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would cut through southern Israel and remain under Israeli sovereignty and Palestinian control.

Our sources add that out of all other options, the American sponsors of the accord prefer to build an express railway line from Gaza to Hebron, without stops, which would be paid for by Washington. Abbas has already informed John Kerry that he wants the train to go all the way to Ramallah.
There will be a special road connecting Bethlehem with Ramallah that bypasses East Jerusalem. This is mostly likely the same route currently planned to go around Maaleh Adummim.
Since the safe passage will cross through Israeli, accounting for 1% of its territory, this area will be deducted from the land Israel concedes, leaving 4.54% for the land swap with the Palestinians.
4. Jerusalem: East Jerusalem will be divided territorially along the lines of the Clinton Parameters with the exception of the "Holy Basin," which comprises 0.04% of the West Bank.

Sovereignty over this ancient heart of Jerusalem, with its unique and historic concentration of Jewish, Christian and Muslim shrines, will pass to an international commission comprised of the US, Israel, the Palestinians, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
5. Refugees: This issue will be addressed according to guidelines proposed by President Bill Clinton at Camp David in the year 2000 - and rejected by Yasser Arafat.
An International Foundation will be established to resettle the bulk of the Palestinian refugees in Canada and Australia, except for a small portion to be accepted in Israel in the framework of family reunification.

6. Security: The Olmert package made no mention of security. However the Kerry draft deals extensively with this issue and Israel's concerns. It calls for the evacuation of all 10,000 Jewish settlers from the Jordan Valley leaving behind a chain of posts along the Jordan River. Security corridors cutting through the West Bank will maintain their land and operational links with Israel.
Border crossings will be set up between Palestine and Jordan with an Israeli security presence. The security section of the draft assigns the use of West Bank and Gaza airspace by Israel and the Palestinians. There will be no Israeli military presence inside the Palestinian state.

7. Taxes: The present arrangement for Israel to collect customs levies and distribute the revenues to the Palestinians will continue. (debkafile: That is about the only clause which the Palestinians accept.) Israel will carry out security checks on goods bound for Palestinian that are unloaded at Haifa and Ashdod ports, and levy customs at rates fixed by the Palestinians to be disbursed in the Palestinian state.

8. Settlements: Eighty percent of all Jewish settlers on the West Bank will be confined to the major settlement blocs as defined in 2. The remaining 20% amounting, according to American calculations to 80,000 people, will have to decide on their own whether they prefer to stay where they are under Palestinian rule or move to Israel.

debkafile's sources report that Secretary Kerry advised the Israeli Prime Minister bluntly that he need not promise to force settlers to leave their homes - as the Sharon government did when he executed the unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Netanyahu replied that it was unacceptable for Israel to abandon the settlers to their fate. He therefore proposed that instead of forcing them to cross back into Israel, they would be absorbed in the larger settlement blocs remaining under Israeli sovereignty.

9. Timelines: Different timetables are proposed in the US framework for implementing different sections: The Palestinian leader says he is willing to give Israel three years as a transition period for relocating settlers.
When he submitted the paper to the Israeli and Palestinian leaders earlier this month, the Secretary of State told them that he saw no point in the two negotiating teams holding meetings consumed by interminable debates on one point or another. He therefore asked both parties to henceforth send him their comments in writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:45 AM

Israel has released a third batch of prisoners as part of its peace process.
The release was greeted with wild celebrations by the Palestinians.
Will the Palestinians do anything that the Israelis can celebrate?

Missile attacks, bus bombings and shooting civilians does not do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 07:37 AM

"So far you and your tiny handful of Israeli supporters have refused to comment on their behaviour"

See my post of 28 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:58 AM

You have started smearing me with lies again as you always do when losing.
Just the usual, same old lies.
Let's just discuss the issues Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM

I did not give it "unquestioning support" Jim.
I told you that I did some checking, but found no faults.
What else am I supposed to do?
You also found no faults.
Nor did Troubadour, Greg or Musket.

That suggests that it is probably mostly accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 03:17 AM

"Neither could you Jim."
Bobad put it up - you gave it your unquestioning support - the 'information' comes from an openly declared Islamophobic site - Muslim Watch
Which of these statements is incorrect?
It is the job of the originators and supporters of vomit like this to prove their case, not for the recipients to disprove it.
You are a stated Islamophobe - you think all Muslims are "implanted" to be perverts by their culture - you have openly made this statement and argued for it on this forum.
Why should we take the word of you, Muslim Watch, the B.N.P..... or any other bunch of lying fanatics.
Go through Boo-Boo's 'Muslim Watch's list and prove the claimed incidents to be true, and to be sectarian and not criminal attacks - it'll only take you few months.   
In the meantime:
Israel's continuing actions of building settlements, along with its previous hostile militaristic behaviour has already put the peace talks - the only possibility at the present time to end the Middle East slaughter - in extreme jeopardy.
It appears to be the intention of the Israeli regime to scupper any little chance of success that these talks have of bringing the conflict to a peaceful conclusion.
So far you and your tiny handful of Israeli supporters have refused to comment on their behaviour - would you care to do so now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:31 AM

Can you find a fault with it then Troub?
One false entry?