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BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 May 13 - 07:01 AM Don, Palestinians fire ""murder rockets"" (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of said rockets make craters in fields and frighten cows). They frighten people and children too. The ball bearings are not added to frighten cows but to tear through flesh.To murder. Sandbags are what proper soldiers use for cover. Hamas fighters use civilians. That is what should disgust you Don, not me describing it. WE DO, and YOU DON'T! Yes we do, but the "evidence" for Israeli atrocities is just not there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 May 13 - 06:52 AM Jim,I have read enough about the film so that there will be no surprise revelations for me when I see it. They do not criticise the intelligence information, just the use of it. Can you verify your claim to the contrary? Whether it is legal to target suspected (that is what they are) terrorists at home is debatable No it is not. See ICRC statement. dropping a bomb on the homes of dozens of non-combatant families in order to do so is not Agree. IDF do not do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 May 13 - 05:56 AM ""500 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians from September 29, 2000 to March 31, 2012 in Israel, and another 254 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank."" Breakdown of deaths 2000 to 2013 Both sides acting in a reprehensible fashion, but these figures (please note that they chose the most conservative figures) do not lend support to the belief that Israel forces pay more than lip service to the minimising of so called ""collateral damage (Keith's "human sandbags"). The number of children killed is particularly reprhensible. Worth noting the figures for IDF soldiers deceased in 2005. 30 suicide, 14 sickness, 26 accident and just 6 in what are called "terror incidents". Since 1992, 459 Israeli soldiers have committed suicide. Bad conscience maybe? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 May 13 - 05:26 AM ""People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards."" All vey well BB, as long as you apply it to both sides! WE DO, and YOU DON'T! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 May 13 - 05:18 AM ""Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd murder missile at its people. It would help if you named the target, but he must have been deeply involved in the missile programme. As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target. If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them."" There, in black and white, is the self exposure of a racist bigot. Palestinians fire ""murder rockets"" (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of said rockets make craters in fields and frighten cows). Israelis carry out justified defensive actions which take out a terrorist and a number of ""human sandbags"". That term for Palestinian civilians (men, women and children) is without doubt the most disgraceful comment I have ever seen on Mudcat (and I've been a membe since the Martin Gibson days). Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 May 13 - 04:18 AM "The six never questioned the guilt of those targeted." You haven't seen the film, you refuse to give us a source for your claims - how the **** do you know what the six questioned? VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS OR THEY ARE NO MORE THAN INVENTIONS ON YOUR PART "Israeli Intelligence is renowned for good reason." Yes, indeed it is - for incursions into other countries to carry out assassinations, for murders of its opponents - there have even been valid claims that they carried out the killings that are being used as an excuse to close the tunnels - they are the security forces of a recognised terrorist state which has been identified as deliberately breaching nearly 100 United Nations regulations. Whether it is legal to target suspected (that is what they are) terrorists at home is debatable - dropping a bomb on the homes of dozens of non-combatant families in order to do so is not - that is a crime against humanity and a war crime. Stringsinger: The overall message that came from the interviews with the security men is that today's Government in Israel has now totally opted for the military solution in Israel. They have joined up with the ultra-right in order to stay in power, any decision in favour of Palestine taken from outside Israel (eg by the UN) is followed by announcements of more settlements, independent surveys have verified claims that the State is now divided on apartheid lines, the authorities have taken it upon themselves to move whole communities as if they were chess pieces in order to divide the country on racist lines, the incursions have become more and more brutal..... The claim by the most hard-line of the security men that the behaviour of the Israeli regime is comparable to that of the Nazis, as chilling as that is, is as near to a reality as it gets. I share your hope - I wish I shared your optimism. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 04:38 PM The six never questioned the guilt of those targeted. Israeli Intelligence is renowned for good reason. That means that it was perfectly legal to target them at home. They may be right that it did not further the cause of Israel's security, but it was not terrorism. It was in response to terrorism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Stringsinger Date: 20 May 13 - 03:46 PM Jim, with young writers like Josh Mintz, there may be another glimmer of hope that Israel can correct its military behavior. Uri Avnery is another peace activist that has a real insight into the politics of the Israeli government. Also, consider Naomi Klein and Norman Finkelstein and hear what they have to say. When dealing on this issue, the only hope is support the Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanction movement and make Netanyahu and his followers listen hard. BDS is not an Israel hate group but is sincerely concerned about the road Zionism has traveled regarding the oppression of Palestinians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 03:32 PM Anything you can do.... Still waiting for you to substantiate your claim about what the Sin Beth men said Keith At no time did they show any interest nor comment on the legality of the legality of their actions - their main concern for the devestating damage they had wrought on the State of Israel. In fairness. if they had any personal misgivings about them they were humanitarian ones. Another made up fact methinks. Jim Carroll http://www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/ http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war-crimes-against-palestine-witness-testimonies/5312862 http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-should-never-forget-its-mideast-atrocities-1.424506 http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445 http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/5-ways-america-enables-israels-atrocities http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPoJ4pYVlb4dJEp92zohLjucInkLVLyKg http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/take-a-look-at-this-list-of-settler-initiated-crimes-against-palestinians-in-the-last-few-weeks.h http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&gmid=23905 http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/israeli-war-criminal-list-goes-global/ http://rtsf.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/breaking-silence-on-israeli-war-crimes/ http://nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=2740 http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 13 - 02:47 PM Arabs Fly Nazi Flag near Hevron Residents of Gush Etzion astounded to see Nazi flag flying near the mosque of Beit Omar. By Gil Ronen First Publish: 5/20/2013, 2:20 PM Hundreds of residents of Gush Etzion, south of Jerusalem, were astounded Monday morning to see an oversized Nazi flag flying next to a mosque in the Arab town of Beit Omar. The residents notified the IDF. A resident, Uri Arnon, told the Tazpit News Agency: "I felt we were going back 75 years, losing our hold on the land. The Arabs no longer feel the need to hide their murderous tendencies, announcing out loud that they wish to annihilate us." An IDF spokesman said that the flag was hung on an electrical line, and that they were waiting to professionals to come and remove it. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168146#.UZpvVb91CS2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM You want to flood this site with meaningless out of context claims "The Shin Bet 6 confirmed that." Can you substantiate this? Jim Carroll http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war-crimes-against-palestine-witness-testimonies/5312862 Israeli War Crimes against Palestine: Witness Testimonies Hearings of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC) By Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC) Global Research, November 25, 2012 Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission Region: Middle East & North Africa In-depth Report: CRIMINALIZE WAR, PALESTINE 306 98 46 1853 Global Research Editor's Note At the height of the bombing of Gaza, legal proceedings directed against the State of Israel involving the initial hearings of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission were launched in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The decision to launch these proceedings was taken by the Commission in May of 2012. Pertaining to alleged Israeli war crimes, the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission heard the testimonies of nine complainants. The following summary of testimonies presented to the Commission provides a historical background on Israeli crimes against humanity extending from the Sabra Shatila Massacres to the 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead, which resulted in the killings of entire families. We invite our readers to carefully examine these witness testimonies. They are of crucial importance in an understanding of the current situation in Gaza. Selected excerpts and quotations below. Scroll down for prosecutors' press release : "Why were the young children killed? [Gaza, January 2009]They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks." "What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?" Mahmoud who was only 12-years-old at the time of 2009 attacks, saw his father shot in cold blood by the Israeli soldiers. He told the panel that he and his friends were playing football and mud balls around a fruit tree when they saw F16 planes flying in the area and shooting bombs and missiles. Displaying maturity beyond his young age, Mahmoud related the terrifying ordeal he and his family underwent during the January 2009 attacks. The soldiers while shooting randomly at the family shot his 4-year-old brother twice in the chest and once in the head and four of his other brothers in their legs and behind the ear. [Gaza, January 2009] "I went to her and realized that my mother (Rahma Mohammed Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 43) died with half of her face blown away. My father (Talal Hilmy Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 49) and my only daughter (Aza Salah Talal Al-Samony, then aged 2.5) also died, with their face disfigured. A total of 21 of my family members died. More than 50 of them were injured. There was screaming, shouting and crying. Blood was everywhere. I lifted my daughter and she had wounds on her neck and stomach. She was dead. Then, I heard my wife calling my name. I went to her. There were a lot of dead bodies on top of her. Then, I slowly pulled her out. She was injured and she was covered in blood. Three of my sons were badly injured and the other one had difficulties in breathing even now." In the early hours of the morning [Sabra and Shatila witness testimony], about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals. "Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street." "Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals." On May 11 2012 the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal rendered a historical guilty verdict in The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission v. George Walker Bush et al . The decision to launch a legal war crimes procedure against the State of Israel was taken by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission in the wake of this historic judgment. Michel Chossudovsky, Director of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG) and Member of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, Kuala Lumpur, November 22, 2012 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ I – KUALA LUMPUR, 20 November 2012 – The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission commenced hearing the testimonies of four of the nine complainants today. The prosecution team had intended to present 11 witnesses at the two-day Commission hearing, but only nine could make it to Kuala Lumpur. Two of the witnesses were unable to make it due to the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The prosecution's first witness was 33-year-old Palestinian Salah Al Sammouni who testified to the 5-panel Commission that 21 members of his family including his father, mother and only infant daughter were killed during a massive Israeli attack in the al-Zaytoun neighbourhood in the South-East of Gaza on 5 January 2009. The remaining 52 injured members of his family and Salah himself (covered in blood and shrapnel) amid firing bullets managed to make their way out of the neighbourhood and found civilians who were kind enough to drive them to the hospital. He testified that the Israeli military forces, who had bombed their house three times, had denied entry to the Red Cross and hospital ambulances into neighbourhood to tend to the wounded. The ambulances only managed to make their way into his neighbourhood three days after the attack. During the attacks, a sharp metal piece had pierced his forehead and until today the doctors are unable to remove that metal piece. Here an excerpt of his testimony – "A short while after the explosion, I heard a very loud explosion about 2 or 3 times. There was dust all over the house. I could not see anything. Later, I saw one missile come through the roof; another from the window and the third one, I do not from where. I then looked around and I saw my mother. I went to her and realized that my mother (Rahma Mohammed Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 43) died with half of her face blown away. My father (Talal Hilmy Mahmoud Al-Samony, then aged 49) and my only daughter (Aza Salah Talal Al-Samony, then aged 2.5) also died, with their face disfigured. A total of 21 of my family members died. More than 50 of them were injured. There was screaming, shouting and crying. Blood was everywhere. I lifted my daughter and she had wounds on her neck and stomach. She was dead. Then, I heard my wife calling my name. I went to her. There were a lot of dead bodies on top of her. Then, I slowly pulled her out. She was injured and she was covered in blood. Three of my sons were badly injured and the other one had difficulties in breathing even now." Salah's 15-year-old cousin, Mahmoud Al Sammouni, one of the few survivors of the same attack on that fateful day, also gave his statement at the hearing. However, the young teen could only give part of his testimony to the panel as he had received word that more of his family members were killed in the current conflict in the last few days. He will continue to give his testimony on Wednesday. Mahmoud who was only 12-years-old at the time of 2009 attacks, saw his father shot in cold blood by the Israeli soldiers. He told the panel that he and his friends were playing football and mud balls around a fruit tree when they saw F16 planes flying in the area and shooting bombs and missiles. He related that there were also many soldiers on the grounds shooting at the walls of homes. He also saw parachutists coming down and landing on the highest buildings in the area and anyone who went out of their homes were shot dead. Displaying maturity beyond his young age, Mahmoud related the terrifying ordeal he and his family underwent during the January 2009 attacks. The soldiers while shooting randomly at the family shot his 4-year-old brother twice in the chest and once in the head and four of his other brothers in their legs and behind the ear. He related that they walked barefooted to seek help at the Al Shifa Hospital. "We went to the main road. Along the way we saw a lot of blood on the street, spent bullet shells, shoes. Iron and metal pieces were all across the street so that no one could pass. The soldiers were shooting randomly and people were scared. As we walked along the road, we saw a tank at the side of the road. It was facing the other way. When the soldiers saw us, the tank was turned in our direction and they shot right above our heads." The prosecution's third witness was 22-year-old Nabil Al-Issawi from Bethlehem, West Bank. The 22-year-old former student of the Ahliya University in Bethlehem was part of a peaceful student demonstration near the Azah Refugee Camp when he was shot in the stomach by an Israeli sniper with a Dum Dum bullet (a bullet which expand on impact). As he lay bleeding on the street, the Israeli soldiers refused to give him immediate aid instead took pictures of him and made fun of him. The use of Dum Dum bullets during a military occupation is a war crime and Nabil confirmed that the usage of Dum Dum bullets were a norm in the Palestine- Isreali conflict. He was informed by the doctors that the Dum Dum bullet once penetrated in his body had broken into 3 pieces going into 3 different directions: 2 went out of his body through the back and his rectum while the third stayed inside his bladder near the lower spine. He was hospitalised for almost 6 1/2 months and underwent four operations. "As a result I missed my last semester in the school (namely, from January to Jun 2008). This affected my academic performance, and I scored poorly in the CGPA (Cumulative Grade Point Average). As a result, I was precluded from pursuing the university course of my choice, namely law," said Nabil who is currently pursing business studies. "The course of my life has been altered dramatically. As of now, I have an abdominal scar for life and discomfort in sitting upright. I cannot swim competitively as I used to. Apart from this, my family members and I have been prohibited from going to Israel. Further, whenever I go through the Israeli military checkpoints, I am always harassed. I have been traumatised by the incident. Whenever I am about to go through numerous military checkpoints in West Bank, I am in the constant state of anxiety and fear," said Nabil who also informed the panel that he and his family is blacklisted from travelling to the nearby Jerusalem since he was shot. He demands freedom in his country, stressing that it is the basic right of human beings not to be harassed by forces that have been placed there illegally. The fourth witness who appeared before the Commission was 42-year-old Jawwad Musleh from Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, West Bank. The tourism program coordinator gave testimony of the repeated incidents of incarceration that he had been subjected to since the age of 15 and gave the Commission a clearer picture of the socio-economic outlook of West Bank. He testified that he was first arrested in 1985 when he was 15-years-old on the accusation that he was a member of the Palestine Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). He said, "I was first taken a place called Elmaskobeya Prison in West Jerusalem for investigation. Later I was taken to Damoun prison located in Haifa and finally I was taken to Ramallah prison in the West Bank." He told the panel that the Israeli forces had used different kinds of torture on him. He revealed that they especially used mental and psychological torture and wanted him to admit that he was a member of the PFLP. He was held prisoner for 20 months. He revealed, "The main charge against me was that I was a member of the Palestine Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). They wanted me to admit that I was a member of the PFLP. They tried to make me believe that they knew everything about me. I refused to confess. Then they began to beat me all over using clubs, sticks, even their feet and hands. The worst part was when there was no interrogation. They put me in confinement with my hands tied behind my back and a hood over my head. The hood was extremely smelly. I could barely breathe. I could not move. My hands were cuffed behind either to a chair or a piece of iron welded to a wall. I had no opportunity to go to the bathroom or to eat. When I did ask for water or to go to the bathroom, the soldiers would blackmail me. They asked me to confess, and only then would they give me water or take me to the bathroom. They prevented me from sleeping or eating or drinking." "In the end I did confess. I was just a kid. There was a court hearing and there was a lawyer representing me. However, from what I know the decision is usually made by the Israeli intelligence." Since then, he has been arrested a total of 8 times and each time he was tortured when he was incarcerated. During each interrogation, they wanted to know about his activities and his relationship with PFLP. There were various charges against him: rioting, participating in demonstrations, illegal activities, boycotting Israeli goods and inciting others to do the same, that he was security threat and a danger to the state of Israel. He testified, "In the last 2 detentions in 1989 and 1990, I was arrested for "administrative reasons". This is a tool the Israelis use for people who are suspected of being active in political activities but for which there is no proof. In such detentions, a person is not entitled to a hearing or lawyers to object to or challenge the detention. You are sent straight to prison. You can only object to the period of detention. The period of detention is usually 6 months. Very often the sentence is confirmed for 6 months. Only in rare cases, it may be decreased to 4 or 3 months." He added, "These kinds of arrests are common. Before the advent of the Palestinian authority in 1994, it occurred more frequently and more people were arrested. Now there are more than 5000 prisoners in Israeli prisons." The focus of the interrogation was always on his relationship with political parties, and they would also try to find out more about other people, as they wanted to get the names of other people active in the Palestinian cause. He related, "Twice, I was sent to Qeziot Military Camp located in the Negev desert south of Palestine. It looks exactly like a Nazi concentration camp with watchtowers and fences. It is located in the middle of the desert and completely isolated from the world. There is no radio, television, newspapers or even visits. I had no access to my family or lawyers for 6 months each time. It was very difficult to lawyers to visit us. I only met my lawyer once each time. The situation in this military camp is horrible because I was isolated, and I had very little food, and even what I had was of poor quality. In Qeziot, we were all housed in tents. These tents were installed on sandy ground. Each section had 10 tents. There were fences all around. In one tent, there would be 20 to 22 persons. It was very crowded. It was always dusty. Dust and sand would get into our food. We didn't have books or anything to read and write. All we got was some food and a small mattress." "I was also held 3 times at the Dahariyeh Military Camp located south of Hebron That is also a very horrible place. The rooms were small and very, very crowded. We used to sleep with our legs over each other. There was no space to move. The rooms also very dirty. We were forced to wear prison clothes that were dirty and smelly. There was no access to any bathroom or toilet. The prison guards would bring us a barrel. All of us had to ease ourselves in the barrel openly in the room. When the barrel was full, we were allowed to take it out and empty it and bring it back. Everything used to smell bad, our mattresses and our clothes. There was no natural light. We were not allowed to leave the room. In other prisons, prisoners are allowed 1 or 2 hours in open space. In Dahariyeh, prisoners cannot go out unless going to court or being transferred to other prisons. I was never visited by my family or lawyer." "We were sometimes beaten by soldiers, although no interrogation was being carried out. They would count us 3 times a day. We would have to stand with our faces towards the wall. If anyone moves or talks, we were beaten hard with clubs. If anyone moved an inch or coughed or sneezed, all would be beaten." In December 1992 while preparing for participation in a peaceful demonstration on the anniversary of PFLP, he was shot twice in the leg by the Israeli army. It damaged a sciatic nerve in his leg and caused complete impairment and paralysis of his foot. "Being detained and spending time in prison hardened my resolve to struggle. I became more aware of the cause of the struggle, the history and later I continued being active in the cause. The Israeli forces think that they can kill our soul and patriotism by sending us to prison. However, it is there that our loyalty to our homeland is strengthened." He added, "More and more Palestinian lands are being taken away. More and more Israeli colonies are being built on lands in the West Bank and Jerusalem. The situation is more complicated now. There are 700,000 Jewish settlers living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is being "Judaised" or "Israelised". The Israelis are taking more and more Palestinian lands and building more and more settlements around Jerusalem to make it more and more Jewish and to force Palestinians to leave Jerusalem." On the subject of the Wall, he testifies, "When it came to building the apartheid wall, the Israelis said it is a security barrier. However, it is actually a strategy to confiscate and expropriate more land. It is not built on the border but inside the West Bank, and this has further reduced the landmass of the West Bank. So Jerusalem, which was part of the West Bank, has now been taken away and annexed to Israel by the construction of the wall." He said, "Life for Palestinians in Jerusalem is very difficult. The strategy is to make Palestinians leave and to replace them with Jews to make a Jewish city. Now about 200,000 Palestinians live in and around East Jerusalem mainly, and this number is getting less and less by the day. Israel says that Jerusalem is its capital." He further related, "Jerusalem is important for Muslims and Christians. For Muslims, the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque are very sacred places. The sacred places for Christians are the Sepulchre Church the Via Dolorosa. But both Christian and Muslim Palestinians cannot visit these places. Historically, Jerusalem has always been the centre and the heart of Palestine, economically, culturally, historically but now we are not allowed." He said, "To move from one place to another in the West Bank, we have to pass through check points. At every checkpoint we have to show identification. There are at the moment 730 checkpoints and roadblocks in the West Bank. This excludes 'flying checkpoints', which the Israeli set up at any place at any time." He related that the Israeli army control the checkpoints, some checkpoints they can pass with no problem, in some they have to submit ID, while others they have to wait for hours as they are very crowded. He revealed that a journey of one hour could take five hours. And when there is a demonstration, the checkpoints are simply shutdown. On the issue of water supply, he revealed that Palestinians suffer from water shortages as the Israeli authorities control the control of water. "Water is supplied to the Israeli settlers at a cheaper price, and 5 times more in volume, compared to Palestinians. It is our land, but we pay more and get less water. The water supplied to Palestinians is inadequate for our daily use and causes us great hardship and suffering," he said. He further revealed, "Many farmers depend on olive harvests. Palestine is full of olive trees. Many farmers' lands have been divided by the wall or the farms are located next to Israeli settlements or military camps. Farmers are therefore deprived of access to their lands. In some cases, they are only given permits to go to their lands during harvest in October. But because they are deprived of access throughout the year to fertilise, water and tend to their trees, the harvest is poor. In many instances, settlers have stolen olives from the farms. In other instances, settlers have burned the trees. Most of the Israeli settlements are located in higher land. Sewage water is discharged to the lower lands, where most of the Palestinians reside. This destroys the farms and trees, and damages the environment." Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal II – KUALA LUMPUR, 21 November 2012 – The Commission heard testimonies of witnesses continuing with the 15-year-old Mahmoud whose 21 family members were massacred by Israeli armed forces under Operation Cast Lead in 2009 where Israeli armed forces attacked Gaza. They also called five other witnesses to testify. Today, the teenager told the Commission the ordeal his 10-year-old sister Amal endured during the attacks in 2009. Amal who was buried under dead bodies for four days is now visually impaired, her hearing is affected and she has 15 pieces of shrapnel's in her head that are medically too risky to remove. Once again the teenager impressed the Commissioners and those who attended the hearing with his maturity and insights into the conflict. A video animation called Samouni Street, which he was involved in the making off, was shown depicting Mahmoud's life in a peaceful farming community that was destroyed in 2009. It was a moving account of a child. He asked, "Why were the young children killed? They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks." He said, "What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?" Even in the recent attacks, some of his neighbours have been killed. He fears for his family and relatives. Dr. Walid Elkhatib, another witness, who comes from Bethlehem District, West Bank is a qualified medical doctor, with a Masters in Public Health, and Higher Diploma in Health Management, testified on the effects of Israeli occupation on Palestinians, especially children. He testified, "From 1988 until 1996, I worked as a general practitioner. I worked at an emergency clinic during the 1st intifada. I saw many patients who were brought in with different kinds of injuries as a result of Israeli violence – people with gun shot wounds, who had been exposed to tear gas and people who were physically abused by Israeli soldiers." "Today, I am in charge of child health and protection, social health and Palestinian child law and rights," said the 52-year-old doctor who developed hearing problems due to constant exposure to explosions and has himself come close to being killed several times by the Israeli soldiers. "I looked at particularly Palestinian children health, not only from the physical point of view but how much Israeli occupation has affected Palestinian children health beyond physical health. It is not merely absence of disease and disability. What I perceived as equally important was emotional, social, mental and environmental health, nutrition and behaviour." He said, "According to a survey conducted in Palestine in 2010 in cooperation with the World Health Organisation, which I personally oversaw, 24% of schoolchildren in Palestine have suicidal tendencies." He further added, "There is also increased incidents of disability among Palestinians. Among 20% of injured people have become disabled during the 2nd uprising (Intifada). The most recent report from Palestinian Ministry of Health and Ministry of Social Affairs (2011) showed that 7% of Palestinian children are disabled, some because of the intifada. Generally the number is 1-2% higher in Palestine because of the violence." He said, "From 2001-2011, there were 2282 cases of disability (93.9% male, 6.1% female). Most of the men were involved in the intifada. 65.6% of them suffered disability as a result of live ammunition. Others were affected by shrapnel, rubber bullet, explosions." "As a result of the greater number of disabilities, it means that these persons also have less opportunities for work and end up in poverty. There is greater pressure on the government to support these persons, by way of provision of social services, health services, education etc." "Poverty is rife in the West Bank and Gaza. It increased from an average of 20% prior to the intifada to up to 51% during the intifada. Conditions of poverty also mean poor nutrition. We found that during the Intifada, children's growth was stunted because they did not have enough protein. There are many cases of children with low weight. During the 2nd intifada, the rate of children with low weight (less than 5 years old) increased from 2.5% to 3.2%, the rate of low height increased from 7.5% to 7.9%, and wasting (severe loss of weight) increased from 1.4% to 1.7%." "According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), there was a 40% increase of prematurity and miscarriages in pregnant women during the 2nd intifada. Israeli soldiers have also violated international law by attacking hospitals and ambulances with shelling and shooting on the excuse that wanted people or terrorists are in the hospital. Currently 53% of the Palestinian population is below 18 years old." He said, "Israeli forces attack hospitals and ambulances on the pretext that there are Palestinian fighters hiding there. Which is not true. I have never seen such a situation. It is my opinion that the Israeli forces allege such incidents but do so to merely justify their inhuman actions of attacking hospitals." It is a slow and certain destruction of a society mentally, physically and socially. He said, "Over the years, the situation in the West Bank and Gaza has become worse. The Israeli authorities have increased in strength. We can only estimate that it will get worse in the future. The Palestinians face a lot of challenges. We are being threatened all the time by the US and Israel – they threaten to cease the transfer of taxes, to strengthen the checkpoints, to stop aid, to completely stop entry to Jerusalem." He continued, "Before the 2nd intifada, I believed that Israel was looking for peace with Palestinians. But now I do not believe it. Israel does not believe Palestinian territory belongs to Palestinians. They believe that it is historically Israeli and they are taking it back. They threaten to increase settlements in Palestinian territories if Palestine continues to try and gain recognition as a state from the United Nations (without membership). Israeli actions amount to the extermination of a whole state. Israel believes that eventually Palestinians will leave their lands beyond the walls. Israeli strategy is to deprive the Palestinians of their basic needs to make them leave. The Palestinians are badly in need of support services Otherwise they will have no choice but to leave." The prosecution subsequent witness was 54-years-old Chahira Abouardini, a mother of three who is a Palestinian refugee (political refugee) living in Camp Shatila, Beirut. She told the Commission about the events that took place at Camp Shatila, Beirut in the month of September 1982, in the now infamous Sabra & Shatila massacre. She testified, "On 14 September 1982, the Lebanese President Bachir Gemayel was assassinated. After that incident, there were a lot of aircraft flying around Beirut. My husband told me that the situation may get worse, and to prepare the children so that we could leave. On 16 September we went to my father's brick house on Sabra Street. There were other family members as well – my father, my sister (17 years old), my brother (24 years old) and his pregnant wife and 2 children, and my cousin and his wife and 2 children." Chahira who broke down while giving testimony said, "In the evening beginning from about 5pm, flares were thrown to light up the area. This went on throughout the night. The camp was full of light throughout the night. We did not know what was happening outside. We heard shooting and screaming outside. At about dusk, my sister ran out into the street to see what was happening. She was shot dead by armed militia. When my sister was shot, she shouted for my father. My father came out of the house to see what had happened to my sister. He was also shot and killed. Their bodies were left on the street. Later I found out that those who shot my sister and father were Lebanese Phalangist militia." In the early hours of the morning, about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals. She said, "Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street." "Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals." The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission hearing on Palestine. The world must do more to help Palestinians. Pic by Chan Wai YewShe testified, "In 36 hours, up to 3500 to 5,000 people from Shatila and Sabra had been massacred, There are also people unaccounted for who had disappeared. The Phalangist militia worked together with the Israelis. They were known to be puppets for Israeli forces. Israelis used them to go into our houses, because these soldiers knew the place, and could speak Lebanese. The Israelis were afraid to go in themselves." She concluded, "What I want is justice to be done and that those who killed my family members and all the people at Shatila and Sabra to be punished for their crimes." The prosecution's next witness was Taghreed Nimat from Nablus, West Bank. Due to Taghreed's father's imprisonment for singing nationalistic Palestinian songs, the Israeli forces often targeted her, accusing her for promoting hatred against the Israeli government. In 2004, the Israeli soldiers attacked the Dr Sayed Kamal Mental Hospital in Bethlehem where she was staying and working as a psychologist. The 47-year-old Palestinian's experiences during the hospital attack caused her to suffer a breakdown causing her to take ASVL sedatives twice and other medication for five months. She also related how she was often harassed unnecessarily by the Israeli military soldiers whatever she went through checkpoints. They soldiers would detain her at these checkpoints for one or two hours or several hours before allowing her through or sometimes refusing entry. The prosecution also called Anne Sunde, a 66-year-old Norwegian who is residing in Belgium. She was working as a volunteer social worker for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in Beirut in the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She related, "On 4 June 1982, I visited my friend at Fakhani. While we are chatting in the building, which housed the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) offices, we heard loud noises of planes flying over. We rushed to the shelter in the basement of the building. Then we heard bombing nearby our building. It was loud. The building shook and I was expecting to die under it. It was my first experience of direct violence. One becomes aware what life is. The bombing seemed eternity." She said, "After a few days the PRCS set up a hospital in La Houd School, Hamra. Since nobody among the volunteers wanted to do cleaning (janitor), I volunteered. I did this together with Kurdish refugees." She said, "Finally I decided to go back to Belgium on 15 September 1982 via Damascus. However, since it was the morning after Bachir Gemayel's (the then President-elect) death, there were no taxis to take me to Damascus. Great nervousness was felt in town. I returned to the PRCS headquarter in Hamra where most of the foreigners were located." She then proceeded to relate her harrowing experiences of the killings at the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She further related that when she went to the Shatila Camp she saw many dead bodies of adults and children, both male and female, in strange positions. I also saw dead animals. The bodies were already decomposing and bloated in the summer heat. The smell, she said, was unbearable and there were flies all over. She added, "It was a horrible scene and they were digging mass graves to bury the dead." The prosecution next called the 66-year-old Italian expert witness Paola Manduca, a retired Professor at University of Genoa, Italy who is an expert Geneticist. In 2011, she conducted and coordinated two research projects relating to the impact of weapons on reproductive health arising from the attacks in Gaza, especially to children. She also personally spent about more then a year from December 2010 to April 2012 in Gaza, conducting research in Pediatric and maternity hospitals. She said, "The outcome of our research points to the degradation of the reproductive health and increase in major structural birth defects, following and correlated to the military attacks and possibly to the input of toxic, carcinogen and teratogen (development interfering) agents delivered by weaponry in the environment and in the wounds of victims, and of their assumption by the inhabitants." She related, "We showed by analytical chemistry methods that in Gaza teratogen and carcinogen metals are found in wounds, in craters since 2006 attacks and in White Phosphorus ammunitions in 2009 and children hair one year after the 2008/09 attacks." She said, "Our study of birth defects in 0 to 2 year old children registered in 5 paediatric hospitals in Gaza Strip showed that there is a 1.8 fold higher frequency of birth defects in the first 6 months of year 2010, compared to the same period in 2006." She testified that there was an increase in birth defects in Gaza starting in 2005-06. "It is our view that such sudden increases in birth defects are usually associated to significant and sudden environmental changes." She confirmed that the start of the increases is correlated in their timing to the military attacks, after the Israeli armed forces left Gaza, and the first news from medical personnel on "unprecedented" wounds, meaning new kinds of wounds from weapons. She said, "We found that 66% of Gaza parents with a birth defect child were exposed to bombing or /and White Phosphorus shelling during Operation Cast Lead in 2008/09." She continued, "Couples with birth defect children reported exposure to White Phosphorus 15 fold more often than couples with normal child." She added, "Our studies have presented proof of a rise in birth defects in Gaza, increasing after the attacks in 2006 and continuing increase up to 2011. It showed correlation of birth defect occurrence with exposure to White Phosphorus shelling. In also showed contamination of the soil by teratogen and carcinogen metals. It showed accumulation of these teratogen and carcinogen metals in children' hair. She also presented proof that teratogen and carcinogen metals are delivered by weapons into the flesh of victims." She concluded that there is long-term effect on reproductive health associated to metal contamination by exposure to weaponry during war and by war remnants. KUALA LUMPUR, 21 November 2012 – The Commission heard testimonies of witnesses continuing with the 15-year-old Mahmoud whose 21 family members were massacred by Israeli armed forces under Operation Cast Lead in 2009 where Israeli armed forces attacked Gaza. They also called five other witnesses to testify. Today, the teenager told the Commission the ordeal his 10-year-old sister Amal endured during the attacks in 2009. Amal who was buried under dead bodies for four days is now visually impaired, her hearing is affected and she has 15 pieces of shrapnel's in her head that are medically too risky to remove. Once again the teenager impressed the Commissioners and those who attended the hearing with his maturity and insights into the conflict. A video animation called Samouni Street, which he was involved in the making off, was shown depicting Mahmoud's life in a peaceful farming community that was destroyed in 2009. It was a moving account of a child. He asked, "Why were the young children killed? They are so young and cannot even hold a stone. Like my brother Ahmad. My cousins who were infants were also killed. I have heard that the soldier who kills more – and younger children – moves up higher in ranks." He said, "What did the children do to deserve to die this way? What did the women do to become widows and what did the old people do to see all this? Nobody is defending us. It is like we are nothing. We do not have a normal happy life like other children. Where is the human right of the child?" Even in the recent attacks, some of his neighbours have been killed. He fears for his family and relatives. Dr. Walid Elkhatib, another witness, who comes from Bethlehem District, West Bank is a qualified medical doctor, with a Masters in Public Health, and Higher Diploma in Health Management, testified on the effects of Israeli occupation on Palestinians, especially children. He testified, "From 1988 until 1996, I worked as a general practitioner. I worked at an emergency clinic during the 1st intifada. I saw many patients who were brought in with different kinds of injuries as a result of Israeli violence – people with gun shot wounds, who had been exposed to tear gas and people who were physically abused by Israeli soldiers." "Today, I am in charge of child health and protection, social health and Palestinian child law and rights," said the 52-year-old doctor who developed hearing problems due to constant exposure to explosions and has himself come close to being killed several times by the Israeli soldiers. "I looked at particularly Palestinian children health, not only from the physical point of view but how much Israeli occupation has affected Palestinian children health beyond physical health. It is not merely absence of disease and disability. What I perceived as equally important was emotional, social, mental and environmental health, nutrition and behaviour." He said, "According to a survey conducted in Palestine in 2010 in cooperation with the World Health Organisation, which I personally oversaw, 24% of schoolchildren in Palestine have suicidal tendencies." He further added, "There is also increased incidents of disability among Palestinians. Among 20% of injured people have become disabled during the 2nd uprising (Intifada). The most recent report from Palestinian Ministry of Health and Ministry of Social Affairs (2011) showed that 7% of Palestinian children are disabled, some because of the intifada. Generally the number is 1-2% higher in Palestine because of the violence." He said, "From 2001-2011, there were 2282 cases of disability (93.9% male, 6.1% female). Most of the men were involved in the intifada. 65.6% of them suffered disability as a result of live ammunition. Others were affected by shrapnel, rubber bullet, explosions." "As a result of the greater number of disabilities, it means that these persons also have less opportunities for work and end up in poverty. There is greater pressure on the government to support these persons, by way of provision of social services, health services, education etc." "Poverty is rife in the West Bank and Gaza. It increased from an average of 20% prior to the intifada to up to 51% during the intifada. Conditions of poverty also mean poor nutrition. We found that during the Intifada, children's growth was stunted because they did not have enough protein. There are many cases of children with low weight. During the 2nd intifada, the rate of children with low weight (less than 5 years old) increased from 2.5% to 3.2%, the rate of low height increased from 7.5% to 7.9%, and wasting (severe loss of weight) increased from 1.4% to 1.7%." "According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), there was a 40% increase of prematurity and miscarriages in pregnant women during the 2nd intifada. Israeli soldiers have also violated international law by attacking hospitals and ambulances with shelling and shooting on the excuse that wanted people or terrorists are in the hospital. Currently 53% of the Palestinian population is below 18 years old." He said, "Israeli forces attack hospitals and ambulances on the pretext that there are Palestinian fighters hiding there. Which is not true. I have never seen such a situation. It is my opinion that the Israeli forces allege such incidents but do so to merely justify their inhuman actions of attacking hospitals." It is a slow and certain destruction of a society mentally, physically and socially. He said, "Over the years, the situation in the West Bank and Gaza has become worse. The Israeli authorities have increased in strength. We can only estimate that it will get worse in the future. The Palestinians face a lot of challenges. We are being threatened all the time by the US and Israel – they threaten to cease the transfer of taxes, to strengthen the checkpoints, to stop aid, to completely stop entry to Jerusalem." He continued, "Before the 2nd intifada, I believed that Israel was looking for peace with Palestinians. But now I do not believe it. Israel does not believe Palestinian territory belongs to Palestinians. They believe that it is historically Israeli and they are taking it back. They threaten to increase settlements in Palestinian territories if Palestine continues to try and gain recognition as a state from the United Nations (without membership). Israeli actions amount to the extermination of a whole state. Israel believes that eventually Palestinians will leave their lands beyond the walls. Israeli strategy is to deprive the Palestinians of their basic needs to make them leave. The Palestinians are badly in need of support services Otherwise they will have no choice but to leave." The prosecution subsequent witness was 54-years-old Chahira Abouardini, a mother of three who is a Palestinian refugee (political refugee) living in Camp Shatila, Beirut. She told the Commission about the events that took place at Camp Shatila, Beirut in the month of September 1982, in the now infamous Sabra & Shatila massacre. She testified, "On 14 September1982, the Lebanese President Bachir Gemayel was assassinated. After that incident, there were a lot of aircraft flying around Beirut. My husband told me that the situation may get worse, and to prepare the children so that we could leave. On 16 September we went to my father's brick house on Sabra Street. There were other family members as well – my father, my sister (17 years old), my brother (24 years old) and his pregnant wife and 2 children, and my cousin and his wife and 2 children." Chahira who broke down while giving testimony said, "In the evening beginning from about 5pm, flares were thrown to light up the area. This went on throughout the night. The camp was full of light throughout the night. We did not know what was happening outside. We heard shooting and screaming outside. At about dusk, my sister ran out into the street to see what was happening. She was shot dead by armed militia. When my sister was shot, she shouted for my father. My father came out of the house to see what had happened to my sister. He was also shot and killed. Their bodies were left on the street. Later I found out that those who shot my sister and father were Lebanese Phalangist militia." In the early hours of the morning, about 16-17 armed soldiers entered her home and shot her husband, brother and cousin dead in front of her and children. She related that militia entered homes and shot at everyone including children and animals. She said, "Along the way to the stadium, I saw my cousin's daughter who was pregnant lying dead. The murderers had opened her body and taken out her baby and put the baby on her. The child was dead as well. She was lying on the street." "Along the street there were a lot of dead bodies. Hundreds of bodies were strewn all over. We climbed a hill to the stadium. At the nearest houses I could see bodies of children. Between the houses, which had been half destroyed, there were bodies of men, and also women and children and animals." She testified, "In 36 hours, up to 3500 to 5,000 people from Shatila and Sabra had been massacred, There are also people unaccounted for who had disappeared. The Phalangist militia worked together with the Israelis. They were known to be puppets for Israeli forces. Israelis used them to go into our houses, because these soldiers knew the place, and could speak Lebanese. The Israelis were afraid to go in themselves." She concluded, "What I want is justice to be done and that those who killed my family members and all the people at Shatila and Sabra to be punished for their crimes." The prosecution's next witness was Taghreed Nimat from Nablus, West Bank. Due to Taghreed's father's imprisonment for singing nationalistic Palestinian songs, the Israeli forces often targeted her, accusing her for promoting hatred against the Israeli government. In 2004, the Israeli soldiers attacked the Dr Sayed Kamal Mental Hospital in Bethlehem where she was staying and working as a psychologist. The 47-year-old Palestinian's experiences during the hospital attack caused her to suffer a breakdown causing her to take ASVL sedatives twice and other medication for five months. She also related how she was often harassed unnecessarily by the Israeli military soldiers whatever she went through checkpoints. They soldiers would detain her at these checkpoints for one or two hours or several hours before allowing her through or sometimes refusing entry. The prosecution also called Anne Sunde, a 66-year-old Norwegian who is residing in Belgium. She was working as a volunteer social worker for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in Beirut in the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She related, "On 4 June 1982, I visited my friend at Fakhani. While we are chatting in the building, which housed the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) offices, we heard loud noises of planes flying over. We rushed to the shelter in the basement of the building. Then we heard bombing nearby our building. It was loud. The building shook and I was expecting to die under it. It was my first experience of direct violence. One becomes aware what life is. The bombing seemed eternity." She said, "After a few days the PRCS set up a hospital in La Houd School, Hamra. Since nobody among the volunteers wanted to do cleaning (janitor), I volunteered. I did this together with Kurdish refugees." She said, "Finally I decided to go back to Belgium on 15 September 1982 via Damascus. However, since it was the morning after Bachir Gemayel's (the then President-elect) death, there were no taxis to take me to Damascus. Great nervousness was felt in town. I returned to the PRCS headquarter in Hamra where most of the foreigners were located." She then proceeded to relate her harrowing experiences of the killings at the Sabra and Shatila Camps. She further related that when she went to the Shatila Camp she saw many dead bodies of adults and children, both male and female, in strange positions. I also saw dead animals. The bodies were already decomposing and bloated in the summer heat. The smell, she said, was unbearable and there were flies all over. She added, "It was a horrible scene and they were digging mass graves to bury the dead." The prosecution next called the 66-year-old Italian expert witness Paola Manduca, a retired Professor at University of Genoa, Italy who is an expert Geneticist. In 2011, she conducted and coordinated two research projects relating to the impact of weapons on reproductive health arising from the attacks in Gaza, especially to children. She also personally spent about more then a year from December 2010 to April 2012 in Gaza, conducting research in Pediatric and maternity hospitals. She said, "The outcome of our research points to the degradation of the reproductive health and increase in major structural birth defects, following and correlated to the military attacks and possibly to the input of toxic, carcinogen and teratogen (development interfering) agents delivered by weaponry in the environment and in the wounds of victims, and of their assumption by the inhabitants." She related, "We showed by analytical chemistry methods that in Gaza teratogen and carcinogen metals are found in wounds, in craters since 2006 attacks and in White Phosphorus ammunitions in 2009 and children hair one year after the 2008/09 attacks." She said, "Our study of birth defects in 0 to 2 year old children registered in 5 paediatric hospitals in Gaza Strip showed that there is a 1.8 fold higher frequency of birth defects in the first 6 months of year 2010, compared to the same period in 2006." She testified that there was an increase in birth defects in Gaza starting in 2005-06. "It is our view that such sudden increases in birth defects are usually associated to significant and sudden environmental changes." She confirmed that the start of the increases is correlated in their timing to the military attacks, after the Israeli armed forces left Gaza, and the first news from medical personnel on "unprecedented" wounds, meaning new kinds of wounds from weapons. She said, "We found that 66% of Gaza parents with a birth defect child were exposed to bombing or /and White Phosphorus shelling during Operation Cast Lead in 2008/09." She continued, "Couples with birth defect children reported exposure to White Phosphorus 15 fold more often than couples with normal child." She added, "Our studies have presented proof of a rise in birth defects in Gaza, increasing after the attacks in 2006 and continuing increase up to 2011. It showed correlation of birth defect occurrence with exposure to White Phosphorus shelling. In also showed contamination of the soil by teratogen and carcinogen metals. It showed accumulation of these teratogen and carcinogen metals in children' hair. She also presented proof that teratogen and carcinogen metals are delivered by weapons into the flesh of victims." She concluded that there is long-term effect on reproductive health associated to metal contamination by exposure to weaponry during war and by war remnants. The Prosecution in its submission urged the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC) to make the necessary recommendations on the indictment and persons to be charged to the KLWC Tribunal. They recommended that the state of Israel be indicted for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide from the evidence tendered. International commissions over the years have concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes. After Operation Cast Lead the UN Goldstone Report stated that Israel committed war crimes in the destruction of civilian infrastructure and in the killing of civilians. The UN Security Council resolution 521 (1982) condemned the criminal massacre of Palestinian civilians in Sabra and Shatila. The UN General Assembly resolution (ES-7/9 24 September 1982) resolved that the massacre was an act of genocide. The UN MacBride Commission formed after the Sabra and Shatila massacre concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes. The UN General Assembly on 16 December 1982 passed a resolution reaffirming the applicability of the Geneva Convention to the protection of civilians in the occupied Palestinian and Arab territories including Jerusalem. It noted the failure of Israel to comply with numerous resolutions. It noted also that the actions and record establish conclusively that it is not a peace loving member state and has not carried out its obligations under the Charter of the United Nations. And yet the international community has failed to take any action against Israel. Genocide, under the 1948 Genocide Convention is the deliberate infliction of conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of a people in whole or in part. The evidence adduced show that the state of Israel has been engaged in acts of genocide against the Palestinian people. Genocide includes both physical and mental harm caused by the Israeli occupation as well as the bombing and killing of civilians that is going on even now in Gaza. Gaza and West Bank are under military occupation of Israel. The Fourth Geneva Convention provides protection for people under a military occupation. Israel has breached practically all the articles of the Geneva Convention. Israel's contention that it is not in occupation of Gaza and West Bank once it withdrew its troops. The reality is Israel is in occupation since the test is belligerent control –Israel is in control. It has blockaded Gaza from the sea and surrounded it by a wall on the land. The Egyptian border is sealed with Gaza. Israel exercises control with the blockade of Gaza, the attack and killing of civilians, the denial of essential supplies, constant killing of civilians. Gaza is under siege. The World Court in its Advisory Opinion in 'the wall case' in July 2004, participated by the Israeli and Palestinians, rejected all of Israel's arguments that they are not an occupying force. The opinion of the World Court was that the construction of the wall in Occupied Palestinian Territory is contrary to international law. Israel is stealing Palestinian water and diverting it to Israel and its settlers while Palestinians are being deprived of water. Hundreds of checkpoints have been established by Israel across West Bank and Gaza limiting the access of Palestinians travelling from town to town. With the wall built by Israel the Palestinians are almost in a 'prison'. Wide spread systematic torture of Palestinians as shown in evidence before the Commission have in numerous cases been documented extensively over the years by human rights organisations including Amnesty International that clearly show that Israel has committed war crimes. Based on evidence and records, the Sabra and Shatila massacre is a clear case of genocide and war crimes. The Israeli forces had played a key role in working with the Phalangist militia in perpetrating this crime. The Palestinian fighters had withdrawn to Tunisia and the Palestinian civilians at the camps were assured by the US that they would be protected under the Habib Agreement. The International forces consisting of Italian, French and US forces withdrew a day before the massacre started and reappeared after that in Beirut. Crimes against humanity come from the Nuremberg trials drafted by the US to deal with the Nazis prosecution of Jews which include murder, torture, imprisonment, rape, persecution of a specific identifiable group based on racial, national, ethnic basis. Interestingly, the Israeli war crimes are the same with the only difference being the scale but it is an on going process of destruction of the Palestinian people. The International Criminal Court (ICC) had refused to accept the Palestine complaint on war crimes against Israel. Palestinians have tried to obtain justice that has been continuously denied to them. The Palestinian complainants now turn to the KLWCC for assistance in obtaining justice. The Commission upon hearing the evidence and the prosecution submissions announced that as per the charter of the KLWCC they would be deliberate on the facts and the law and prepare a report and its recommendations at a later date. The 5-panel Commissioners' is headed by Musa Ismail, a former Magistrate, who is currently a practicing lawyer. The other Commissioners include lecturer and author Prof Hans-Christof von Sponeck, who was also a former UN Assistant Secretary General responsible for humanitarian operations in Iraq, Nobel peace prize nominee Denis J. Halliday, who worked for the UN for 34 years and was head of the UN Humanitarian Programme in Iraq, Dr Zulaiha Ismail, former Dean of the Centre for Graduate Studies Universiti Teknologi MARA (UiTM) and currently actively involved with NGOs specifically on the plight of the Palestinians and Michel Chossudovsky, professor of economics emeritus, University of Ottawa and Director, Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG). The prosecution team for the commission hearing is lead by Prof Gurdial Singh Nijar, prominent law professor and author of several law publications. He is assisted by Prof Francis Boyle, Avtaran Singh and Gan Pei Fern. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 11:41 AM But for the missiles, Israel would not have to take action against them. IDF only targeted in that way confirmed combatants. The Shin Bet 6 confirmed that. Israel acted within the law, Hamas were guilty of indiscriminately attacking civilians, operating from civilian areas and placing people as human shields. The 6 might be right that Israel's security was not improved, but Israel's actions in response to the missiles was restrained and legal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 13 - 11:15 AM 20.^ "How Hamas took over the Gaza Strip". BBC News. June 15, 2007. Retrieved January 4, 2010. 21.^ Gaza-Westbank – ICRC Bulletin No. 22 / 2007, AlertNet. Retrieved June 16, 2007. 22.^ Gaza: Armed Palestinian Groups Commit Grave Crimes, Human Rights Watch, June 13, 2007. 23.^ Hospitals offer no safety in Gaza strip, ABC News, June 13, 2007. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 13 - 11:12 AM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict 37.^ al-Mughrabi, Nidal (November 12, 2007). "Gunfire kills seven at Fatah rally in Gaza". Reuters. 38.^ "Eight dead in Gaza faction clash". BBC News. January 1, 2008. Retrieved May 2, 2010. 39.^ "6 Die as Palestinian Authority Forces Clash with Hamas." New York Times, June 1, 2009, Ethan Bronner [2] 40.^ a b c "Hamas and Fatah hammered for human rights abuses against their own people". thenational. 19May 2011. Retrieved 4 January 2013. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 13 - 11:08 AM According to B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, 500 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians from September 29, 2000 to March 31, 2012 in Israel, and another 254 Israeli civilians were killed in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.[71] B'tselem reported that the main argument used to justify violence against civilians is that "all means are legitimate in fighting for independence against a foreign occupation". B'Tselem criticized this argument, saying it is completely baseless, and contradicts the fundamental principle of international humanitarian law. "According to this principle, civilians are to be protected from the consequences of warfare , and any attack must discriminate between civilians and military targets. This principle is part of international customary law; as such, it applies to every state, organization, and person, even those who are not party to any relevant convention."[72] B'Tselem further noted that Palestinian spokespersons distinguish between attacks inside Israel proper and attacks directed at settlers in the Occupied Territories, stating that since the settlements are illegal and many settlers belong to Israel's security forces, settlers are not entitled to the international law protections granted to civilians. Human rights group B'tselem rejected this argument, and stated: "The illegality of the settlements has no effect at all on the status of their civilian residents. The settlers constitute a distinctly civilian population, which is entitled to all the protections granted civilians by international law. The Israeli security forces' use of land in the settlements or the membership of some settlers in the Israeli security forces does not affect the status of the other residents living among them, and certainly does not make them proper targets of attack. B'Tselem strongly opposes the attempts to justify attacks against Israeli civilians by using distorted interpretations of international law. Furthermore, B'Tselem demands that the Palestinian Authority do everything within its power to prevent future attacks and to prosecute the individuals involved in past attacks."[72] Rocket attacks within the green line [edit] See also: Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel Israeli boy crippled by Palestinian rocket fire. Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[73][74] as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[75] The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting the Israeli city of Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha and Grad rockets. Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[76] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[77][78][79][80] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Defenses constructed specifically to deal with the weapons include fortifications for schools and bus stops as well as an alarm system named Red Color. Iron Dome, a system to intercept short-range rockets, was developed by Israel and first deployed in the spring of 2011 to protect Beersheba and Ashkelon, but officials and experts warned that it would not be completely effective. Shortly thereafter, it intercepted a Palestinian Grad rocket for the first time.[81] The attacks were a stated cause of the Gaza blockade, the Gaza War (Dec 27, 2008 – Jan 21, 2009) and other Israeli military operations in the Gaza Strip, including Operation Rainbow (May 2004), Operation Days of Penitence (2004), the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict, Operation Autumn Clouds (2006), and Operation Hot Winter (2008). Attacks began in 2001. Since then, nearly 4,800 rockets have hit southern Israel, just over 4,000 of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The range of the rockets has increased over time. The original Qassam rocket has a range of about 10 km (6.2 mi) but more advanced rockets, including versions of the old Soviet Grad or Katyusha have hit Israeli targets 40 km (25 mi) from Gaza.[73] Some analysts see the attacks as a shift away from reliance on suicide bombing, which was previously Hamas's main method of attacking Israel, and an adoption of the rocket tactics used by Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.[82] Denial of service attacks on the emergency services [edit] There have been a number of reports in the Israeli press about denial of service attacks by Palestinians on the Magen David Adom and other emergency call lines.[83][84][85][86][87][88][89] A spokesman said that they had received up to 2400 harassing calls per day to the Beersheba MDA office[85] deputy Mayor of Sderot said that after investigation that Palestinians were blocking the ability[84] of citizens to seek for help after mortar and missile attacks, According to the MDA director in the Negev some callers identified themselves as Palestinians and said that they had been paid to make the calls.[85] The director said the calls were intended to block the MDA's ability to provide emergency services particularly during major events such as mortar[86] attacks.[85] As of 2006[85][87] filtering systems had been developed and deployed to handle with this type of calls, according to MDA 2008 report one filtering system recognized more than 129,000 phone calls as abusive calls.[90] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Greg F. Date: 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM Source of last cut and paste and what are the footnotes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 13 - 11:07 AM On November 12, a large demonstration dedicated to the memory of late Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat was organized by Fatah in Gaza City. With over 200,000 participants, this was the largest Fatah demonstration in the Gaza Strip since the Hamas takeover. The demonstration was forcibly dispersed by Hamas gunmen, who fired into the crowd. At least six civilians were killed and over 80 people were injured, some from being trampled in the resulting stampede.[37] The smaller militant group Islamic Jihad, whose members have clashed with Hamas several times, condemned the shootings. 2008-present [edit] On January 1, 2008, at least eight people died in factional fighting in the Gaza Strip.[38] On May 31, 2009, six people were killed as Palestinian Authority and Hamas forces clashed in Qalqilya. Ethan Bronner described the fighting as an indication "that the Palestinian unity needed for creation of a state is far off."[39] In 2011, Commission for Human Rights (ICHR), observed that "due to the failure of the reconciliation efforts between Fatah and Hamas throughout 2010, and the ongoing internal political division, the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have been the main victims of the political dispute between both combatant parties," the report observed. Noting the "overwhelming majority" of prisoners being political prisoners as well as "delayed, circumvented or ignored rulings by Palestinian court" and "rise in torture allegations from the previous year".[40] Both groups nevertheless expressed willingness to tackle the issue of political prisoners as a gesture of goodwill. Hamas spokesman Taher al-Nunu said the group would grant amnesty to some 30 Fatah-affiliated political prisoners held after the group took over the Gaza Strip in 2007. Fatah's Sha'ath, also speaking in Gaza, said preparations were underway to release dozens of Hamas prisoners being held in the West Bank.[40] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 13 - 11:02 AM Battle of Gaza [edit] Main article: Battle of Gaza (2007) Throughout June 7 and 15, of fighting Hamas took control of the main north–south road and the coastal road.[20] and removed Fatah officials. The ICRC estimated that at least 118 people were killed and more than 550 wounded during the fighting in the week up to June 15.[21] Human Rights Watch accused both sides with violations of international humanitarian law. Including the targeting and killing of civilians, public executions of political opponents and captives, throwing prisoners off high-rise apartment buildings, fighting in hospitals, and shooting from a jeep marked with "TV" insignias.[22] The International Committee of the Red Cross has denounced attacks in and around two hospitals in the northern part of the Gaza strip.[23] The Israeli government closed all check-points on the borders of Gaza in response to the violence. "People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 10:55 AM "It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities." These are not combatants being targeted - they are not even proven "terrorists", it is the indiscriminate killing of everybody who happen to be in the vicinity - that is a war crime when no opposition being offered and the suspects are merely going about their everyday lives. The dropping of a bomb on apartments containing a large number of families can neither be described as lawful killing in combat, nor can those families be described as "hostages" - that is the term you have chosen to justify what has been described by human rights organisations and by the UN as "war crimes" - it has been defended by the the US vetos - totally unnecessarily if they had been legal. Even the Yanks have found it necessary to invent a new term, "collateral damage" to justify it. "Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes" ..... have all been perpetrated by the Israelis at one time or another - you've just been presented with a batch of human shields used by them. Israel has indiscriminately targeted homes, schools, hospitals and entire streets in their incursions, and from even before the state was set up Jewish "freedom fighters" were throwing hand grenades into occupied houses to clear the ground of Arabs - these are historically documented facts. The more I read the obscene filth that you write, the more I find myself in total agreement with the Shin Beth guys who pointed out that "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter". It is Israel's expansionist policy that is the cause of these hostilities, it is the refusal by them to negotiate a settlement, (as claimed by the security officials), that is prolonging it, and it is all the evidence that has been presented to you throughout these discussions that makes Israel a fascist, ethnic cleansing state with no regard for human life, and recognised as such by the rest of the world, including decent humane Israelis. People who carry out atrocities such as these are war criminals and those who support and justify them are sick bastards. Take your one-man defence of war crimes and shove them - we've got the message - Israel can do no wrong and is quite happy to plumb the depth because they can rely on the US veto to bail them out, just as Assad can rely on Russia and China to do the same in Syria - whence the difference? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Stringsinger Date: 20 May 13 - 10:53 AM "It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities." The world is filled with unjust, cold, inhuman and callous legalities. That proves nothing. "Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes, not just committed by rogue individuals, but as standard operational procedure." And Israel is guilty of all of these. And the human shields is a popular lie. Standard operational procedures has made Israel a pariah of the world. Jim, Keith has slammed the door on legitimate evidence but your presentation may help others on this site to see the bigger picture. Thanks for doing so. Again, what is your motivation for your support of Israel Keith? Are you or not a Christian fundamentalist who has a biblical injunction to protect? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 09:25 AM TERRORIST STATES DROPPING BOMBS ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS TO ASSASSINATE TERRORISTS - WHICH THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS DOING IN THE LAST INCURSION, AND WHICH THE SHIN BETH MEN SAID WAS A LONG-TERM PRACTICE It is legal to target a combatant, even when not engaged in hostilities. It is not a terrorist act.(See quote from International Committee of Red Cross linked to earlier.) It was never disputed that it was a long-term practice. Firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians, firing from civilian areas and using human shields to prevent counter strikes are all serious war crimes, not just committed by rogue individuals, but as standard operational procedure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 08:06 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkEzJZGNyMI Israel [edit] The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26] Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31] In February 2007, Associated Press Television News released footage of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian. The video appears to show the West Bank resident serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers.[31][32] The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident.[31] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank raid.[33] During the 2008-2009 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and former Israeli soldiers (see Breaking the Silence). According to testimonies, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[34][35] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict[36][37] The Guardian has compiled three videos[38] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[39] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[39] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[39] However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[40] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[41] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas". On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[42] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[43][44][45] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield Two Israeli soldiers who used a nine-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield were given suspended sentences and demoted after being convicted of "inappropriate conduct". The unnamed soldiers, from the Givati Brigade, ordered Majeh Rabah, from the Tel al-Hawa neighbourhood in Gaza City, to check bags for explosives in January 2009, towards the end of Israel's three-week offensive. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/21/israeli-soldiers-human-shield-avoid-jail ALL OF WHICH PROVES NOTHING MORE THAN BAD THINGS HAPPEN IN WAR AND HAVE NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH TERRORIST STATES DROPPING BOMBS ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS TO ASSASSINATE TERRORISTS - WHICH THEY WERE IDENTIFIED AS DOING IN THE LAST INCURSION, AND WHICH THE SHIN BETH MEN SAID WAS A LONG-TERM PRACTICE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 07:49 AM Israel does target the homes of combatants. That is legal. In the video an attack was prevented by the use of human shields including children. That is illegal. Voluntary shields are entitled to no consideration, but IDF aborted the attack anyway. IDF shows more concern for Palestinian lives than Hamas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 07:40 AM And your proof that Israel doesn't target occupied homes - an unidentified and virtually impenetrable film clip claiming that somebody did something somewhere - Proof - you are a joke Keith And the rest as usual - "Lies, Lies and Lies" As I said boring and very, very disturbed Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 06:27 AM - Israel has now made it common practice to target "terrorists" in their homes, no matter how many non combatants are concerned - you even responded to this in the past with some crap about mobile phones. Not true Jim, as this video proves. (PROVES!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE Your own support for British fascists (in wartime) by describing them as "harmless" Another Jim lie. and your attempts to link Israeli war crimes with being Jewish makes you an anti-Semite. Another Jim lie. You are a lying apologist for terrorism. Another Jim lie. I don't lie Jim, and have no need to anyway. Your false claims need constant lies to prop them up, but they fall down anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 06:01 AM This iis typical of your continual lying - Israel has now made it common practice to target "terrorists" in their homes, no matter how many non combatants are concerned - you even responded to this in the past with some crap about mobile phones. Killing "human sandbags" is killing hostages pure and simple - you have said you are against this. Your own support for British fascists (in wartime) by describing them as "harmless" and your attempts to link Israeli war crimes with being Jewish makes you an anti-Semite. Your repetitive attempts to evade the consequences of your own arguments makes you a bore You are a lying apologist for terrorism. You a bi-polar mess. Fuck off and close the door behind you. Over and out. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 05:04 AM Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd murder missile at its people. It would help if you named the target, but he must have been deeply involved in the missile programme. As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target. If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them. Israel has a right to strike back at such war criminals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 04:56 AM Nobody has "rubbished" my claim Keith - you are still on your own as an apologist for war crimes - this is a moronic monologue by you - a repetition of "Israel didn't do it". Your UNLINKED claim by the International Red Cross referred to people who served a "continuous combat function" - which doesn't come anywhere near to describing the slaughter of apartment dwellers who might or might not have lived in an apartment block as a terrorist - at best it is support for the killing of hostages (by your own past description), but the intervies with the Shin Beth men showed it to be an act of calculated murder which is now established as accepted tactics by Israel. IT IS DISTORTIONS SUCH AS THIS THAT MAKES YOUR INPUT HERE NO MORE THAN ATROCITY AND WAR-CRIMES DENIAL You have provided no proof whatever of your claims and nor will you; as you said yourself, the only proof you have been able to find are the excuses and denials by Israel and her acolytes. GFY Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 04:05 AM YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT DROPPING A BOMB ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS A BLATENT ACT OF TERRORISM - A WAR CRIME. I provided a linked quote from ICRC that it was not. You chose to restart this thread Jim, so do not complain that other posters rubbish your claims and weak arguments on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 May 13 - 03:52 AM "Jim is back but avoiding the thread he himself restarted just a few days ago." Are you still stalking me? You are still providing nothing but your own twisted opinions, you are not attempting to qualify those opinions, you are not responding to the LINKED information you have been given, you are still rejecting out-of-hand anything that vaguely puts Israel in a poor light, you continue to ignore the official condemnation of Israel by the UN for its terrorist activities and the evidence provided by Amnesty, Jews For Justice, Human Rights Watch.... YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT DROPPING A BOMB ON OCCUPIED APARTMENTS IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS A BLATENT ACT OF TERRORISM - A WAR CRIME. Why on earth should I waste my time on a sad, attention-seeking moron who seems to be getting it off of State terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Say something worth listening to and you have my undivided attention - go on as you are doing and you continue to be a one-man freak show. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 May 13 - 02:54 AM its contribution to genocide. ! It goes to extraordinary lengths not to kill Gazans while trying to stop the indiscriminate, murderous missiles launched as part of a mission to kill any and all Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Stringsinger Date: 19 May 13 - 02:49 PM But there are more Palestinian killing missiles. The casualties on the Gaza side are far greater than in Israel. I don't like missiles and I think that to fire them is wrong. But I don't see how Israel can absolve itself in its contribution to genocide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 May 13 - 12:28 PM Not disproportionate enough to actually stop them firing their Jew killing missiles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Stringsinger Date: 19 May 13 - 10:53 AM "Tell Jim that Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd missile at its people." No. It amounts attacks on collective Palestinian people for the works of an individual "odd missile". Highly disproportionate response. "Cast Lead". "Pillar of Cloud". This is not justice but war-mongering for the purpose of expanding the perversion of Zionism. And this is not an anti-Semitic statement since Zionists can't claim the general name of Semitic which involves many people in the Middle East. The solution is to return to the justice of David ben-Gurion and turn Israel into a socialist state that embraces Palestinians giving them equal political voice as well as immigrant Jews. More dictators that Israel supports: Ronald Reagan, G.W.Bush and Richard Nixon. To quote Bush: "Dictatorship is fine as long as I'm the dictator". (very funny!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 May 13 - 02:48 PM So Don, you think the murderous illegal missiles were OK because they only terrorised families without killing too many. No matter that people and kids have to huddle underground instead of school and work. No matter that people were driven out of S.Israel. No sign of prejudice there then. You are a nasty, bigoted person. Gazan families do not need shelters because nobody is targeting them. Tell Jim that Israel does not mount attacks on individuals who have fired the odd missile at its people. The target must have been deeply involved in the missile programme. As Red Cross states, that makes him a combatant and a legitimate target. If he surrounds himself with human sandbags, none but he is responsible for the harm he brings to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Stringsinger Date: 18 May 13 - 11:08 AM There can be no justification for violence on either Israeli or Palestinian sides. But the egregious attitude is to ignore one side in favor of the other, to excuse Israeli military violence for any reason and to ignore the oppression of the Palestinian people by the Israeli military. This kind of idolatry is symptomatic of a "true believer" who will accept no other way of looking at the issue. Fortunately, there are many Jews, and their number is growing, that see the perversion of the Zionist movement by Netanyhu and his henchmen. Israel has become a theocracy and has extinguished its earlier socialist movement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 May 13 - 10:44 AM ""Are we to take it that you no longer oppose the killing of civilians?"" He never did! He just denied all evidence relating to it except when an Israeli died. I should have thought you would have picked up on the fact that he considers frightening Israelis to be a far worse crime than killing Arab men women and children who have the misfortune to be in the blast radius of a bomb aimed at one "terrorist", identified as such, of course, only by the Israelis. Look back at his posts about Israelis cowering in fear in their shelters, while Gaza civilians have no shelters because Israel won't allow the materials to build them. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 May 13 - 09:32 AM Jim is back but avoiding the thread he himself restarted just a few days ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 May 13 - 04:29 AM Refresh, awaiting Jim's return. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 May 13 - 03:15 AM My last was in reply to, "DELIBERATELY DROPPING A BOMB ON AN OCCUPIED APARTMENT BLOCK IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS AN ACT OF TERROR AND A WAR CRIME - IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE PRODUCE (LINKED) PROOF THAT IT IS NOT." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: GUEST Date: 16 May 13 - 10:55 AM 'Police officers are not legitimate military targets. They are of course a very common target in many conflicts, and such attacks are generally recognised as terrorist acts, whoever carries them out'. Moot point. The Royal Irish Constabulary (and, after 1922, the Royal Ulster Constabulary) were constituted as a centrally-controlled armed force, outside of the nominal local, civilian control which governed policing in the rest of the UK (apart from the Met, which falls under the Home Office). Indeed, the RUC was the only UK police force whose budget and establishment were included in the United Kingdom Statememt of Defence Estimates (the annual publication which outlines British military spending for the upcoming year). Not that I'm condoning or advocating killing coppers, but in the case of Northern Ireland the distinction between the military and civilian security apparatuses (apparati?) is (or was) something of a false one. That is, I would think, even more so in heavily-militarised parts of the world like the Middle East. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 May 13 - 10:25 AM guidelines of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) published in June 2009. The ICRC opined that anyone who fulfills a "continuous combat function" should be considered a combatant even if he is not taking a direct part in hostilities at the moment he is killed and a person who does not fulfill a continuous combat function, but is killed when directly participating in hostilities, is also considered a combatant; This from the page I linked to earlier. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 May 13 - 10:20 AM McG, that is an opinion. An alternative opinion, "Human Rights Watch stated that police are presumptively civilians but are considered valid targets if formally incorporated into the armed forces of a party to a conflict or directly participate in the hostilities.[35] The IDF made clear that it regards police under the control of Hamas in Gaza to be inherently equivalent to armed fighters, including them in the militant's count.[31] The PCHR representative argued however that Israel wrongly classified 255 police officers killed at the outset of the war as militants,[36] explaining that International Law regards policemen who are not engaged in fighting as non-combatants or civilians.[31] Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) compiled a report saying that during Gaza War many supposedly civil policemen were at the same time operatives in Hamas's military wing.[37] ITIC stated that Hamas' military wing recruits police officers for military operations and that police forces were drafted to fight Israel during the war in January 2009.[38] One of ITIC bulletins also presented supposed evidence of Hamas policy to hide details of Hamas men who got killed or injured in the fighting.[39] B'Tselem in its fatalities' figures report wrote that it knew many police officers in the Gaza Strip are also members of the military wings of Palestinian armed groups, and might have taken part in hostilities against Israel. At the same time, the NGO did not possess concrete information on integration of police officers in the combat forces of Hamas and was unable to determine whether all the police officers were legitimate targets or whether the Palestinian police in Gaza, as an institution, is part of the combat forces of Hamas, all of whose members carry out a continuous combat function. For these reasons, police officers that were killed in an attack aimed at police or police stations, were listed by B'Tselem in a separate category.[24] The controversial Goldstone Report concluded that while there were many individual Gaza policemen who were members of militant groups, the Gaza police forces were a civilian police force and "cannot be said to have been taking a direct part in hostilities and thus did not lose their civilian immunity from direct attack as civilians".[40] The report did not "rule out the possibility that there might be individuals in the police force who retain their links to the armed groups" but finds no evidence that the police were part of the Gaza armed forces and that it "could not verify the allegations of membership of armed groups of policemen."[40] NGO UN Watch noted that the Goldstone Report relies on the testimony of the Gaza police spokesperson Islam Shahwan and accepts the interpretation of his own words "face the enemy" as meaning "distributing food stuffs".[41] In the initial response to the fact-finding mission's report, issued on September 24, 2009, the Israeli Government further added that "in seeking to support its assertion" that the police in Gaza were a civilian police force, not only did the committee reinterpret some of the evidence, but also ignored other explicit statements of the police officials, e.g. the alleged admission by Hamas police chief Jamal al-Jarrah that "the police took part in the fighting alongside the resistance".[42] The ICT said that many of those listed by PCHR as civilians, including civil policemen, were in fact hailed as militant martyrs by Hamas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 May 13 - 09:14 AM Police officers are not legitimate military targets. They are of course a very common target in many conflicts, and such attacks are generally recognised as terrorist acts, whoever carries them out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 13 - 08:50 AM Some context for all this - death toll since 2,000 http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 13 - 08:29 AM That is not "editing anything Keith - do not accuse me of what you did persistently once upon a time before you stopped supplying links in order to disclose that your "quotes" were from Zionist hate sites or were made up by you. I selected the line that was relevant - that you are claiming that dropping bombs on an apartment block in order to assassinate a claimed and untried "terrorist" is a war crime. You are now attempting to evade the consequences of that statement with a diversion. DELIBERATELY DROPPING A BOMB ON AN OCCUPIED APARTMENT BLOCK IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT AN ASSASSINATION IS AN ACT OF TERROR AND A WAR CRIME - IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE PRODUCE (LINKED) PROOF THAT IT IS NOT. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 May 13 - 07:20 AM The quote of mine you quoted, you also edited Jim. Actual quote, "The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR No. It is not. The six say that it is counter-productive for Israel. You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism. Terrorism is what the Palestinians do- killing civilians deliberately and for no other reason than to terrorise civilians." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 May 13 - 06:10 AM It is legitimate to target an enemy combatant, uniformed or terrorist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 13 - 05:56 AM And by the way - I specified exactly what I was referring to, I made several point on the contradictions in your claims and asked a specific question - I also requested that you provided linked evidence to your claims - please respond to all of these. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 May 13 - 05:46 AM "Jim I was referring to Pillar of Cloud operation." I don't give a **** what you were referring to - the discussion was about a bomb being dropped on an apartment block in order to kill a claimed terrorist - that was the thread of the discussion which arose from the statements by the Shin Beth heads. If what they say was accurate this is a war crime despite your claims that killing civilians in order to carry out an assassination is acceptable - and before you claim you never said such a thing: "The dropping of a bomb on a crowded town in order to kill a terrorist suspected of living there IS AN ACT OF TERROR" No. It is not. You and I might think they are right, but it is not terrorism." Jim Carroll |