BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:55 PM

"the right-wing establishment wing of the party (Mann, Hodge, Smeeth, Ellman, Woodcock, etc)"

They are still lefty enough to need rounding up
and be sent packing back to Russia...

Well.. that's probably what our South West old tories, and even further right, would tell you...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 02:04 AM

”He has four years to fail, and, as he has no principles, he will. It's a dead cert.”

Maybe, maybe not. But he can’t do any worse than Corbyn. Where did Corbyn's principles’ get us? The worst election defeat in living memory. If that’s the party-members’ definition of a great leader, the Labour Party is well and truly buggered.

You'll end up wishing that Jezza was back...Think I'm mad, eh? Blimey, what do YOU know!

Rabid Left-Wing ideologues like you might feel that way, but I very much doubt that the majority of voters will feel the same. He was a walking disaster, and an absolute gift for the Tory Propaganda Machine. You really do need to give your head a wobble.

You do realise that, by your disloyalty to, and undermining of, the current democratically-elected leader, you’re making yourself as bad as the cabal you criticise so bitterly for their campaign to undermine Corbyn, don’t you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM

Labour made its appearance at a time when changes were desperately needed - it was a 'left' party with 'left' principles
Those left(ish) principles saw Britain though the devastation left behind the war and helped rebuild Britain
They gave people homes and created a health service envied by the world, it evened our some of the inequalities by giving the working person a voice in their place of work - the improvements that took place were down largely to 'lefty' principles - and there were plenty of them
Gradually they were whittled away by the right wing policies and coplromised being demanded here
The right wing sellouts by Wilson and Castle and those who followed them turned Labour into an Establishment Party - "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" (and occasionally, Government)
Right Wing New Labour plumbed the depths by co-operating with a right-wing American President and entering into the massive 'WMD' con-trick which has committed Britain to decades of war and a totally unmanageable wold-wide refugee crisis

Your right-wing takeover of the Labour Party has betrayed it's ideals (which you openly sneer at Baccie) and it has betrayed the very reason for its existence
Whenever it has betrayed those ideals it has left a smear on the name of Labour - the worst was the most recent was administered by Blair - that's won't be forgotten until young people are brought home from killing and dying
That's 'the right's' most memorable contribution to Labour's history

Your right-wing experiment has betrayed the Labour Party - about time to return to core values, I think

I really did think we'd seen the last of being referred to as a "leftie" as a term of abuse in these arguments - a nasty dose of deja vous, it would appear - think on't
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 03:52 AM

The only person ‘openly sneering’ round here is you, Jim. I’m simply asking for people like you and Steve to get real, get behind the leader, and stop undermining the only party capable of restoring social and economic justice in the UK.

None is so blind as he who will not see.

These are my final words to you. In Iains’ absence, you seem to have adopted me as a substitute and the new target for your word-twisting and accusatory tirades. Well you can forget it - from now, you’re talking to yourself.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:13 AM

"get behind the leader,"
Right ot wrong, you mean ?
Been there - done that
I suggest you look at what you've written about Corbyn and the "lefties) (your phrase) before you deny having sneered at people
You have the arguments of why we believe we shouldn't "get behind them" - how about tackling them
As for the leader being "elected" - so was Johnson - Brexit was supported across the board by Conservatives, Labour and in between
Shouldn't we "get behind that"?
Labour has tried right wing policies for many decades - look what has happened to the lesser well off of Britain by doing that
Time to get off the pot and give principles a chance, I think
If that fails, it can't be much worse that things have become
I honestly believe that, when this pandemic is over Starmet will throw in his lot with Johnson to "get Britain back on its feet" - and that will mean getting the lesser-well-off rather than those who can afford it to take the brunt of the coming economic crisis
We're already seeing that with record levels of unemployment and widespread closures - this is just the beginning
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:20 AM

yes, i'm finding this a bit disturbing. i don't know how often contributors here attend labour party meetings or how many active members they talk to. i've always been a left of centre member - pro cnd, tony benn, jeremy corbyn, sometimes vote green or scottish socialist anti-racist,anti-capitalist etc etc.....or whatever but always pro-peace and anti -tory. this has never changed yet now i'm a sellout apparently as some critics of the party claim to understand my motives and my tactics.. this reminds me of saturday trips up buchanan street where i have often stopped to talk with guys on a pro-israel stall very quickly i am labelled as a corbynite cult member and by definition -anti-semitic. it's nonsense. corbyn has sacked pro-palestine mps and looks like starmer will too. i'd guess that the vast majority of labour are bored and annoyed by the whole non-story. it's the biggest distraction that we have all fallen for = choose your splinter group and watch the tories crack on dismantling our country and the israeli government destroy palestine. we must put aside our petty, manufactured, self-indulgent differences and unite...i'm asking for solidarity but you will call it selling out. corbyn is 75 years old, he was impossible to work for on the doorsteps - he can reasonably retire from the front line having done a good job. but we must move on...together

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I still say that Blair was the most successful leader that I have known, Steve and nothing you have said disputes that. Yes, he totally cocked it up with the war. Until then he did a good job and kept the party in power. Had he not become Bush's lapdog I believe Labour's tenure would have gone on much longer and the political climate would have been vastly different today.

I have gone "all daftly earth-mother and joined the bloody Greens" BTW. You can have a good laugh at that and I really don't mind. Once the earth's resources have gone or the air is too polluted to breathe it won't matter whether we go down the left of right hand road :-( I have not yet given up my Labour party membership get though. Maybe they will expel me now but even though they have their faults and I said I would go, I am reluctant to depart!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:39 AM

"he was impossible to work for on the doorsteps"
So we'll send a senior QC to impress the people instead ?
Yeah - that should do the trick !!
It really is about time we moved away from personalities (and now their age)
and got around to discussing exactly what we should be "getting behind"
So far it has been to get behind someone who sacks his colleagues for telling it as it is
If Labour is to survive - which is doubtful, it needs a bit more than blind faith
There has to be either a reconciliation between all the views within the part and'or a cleansing of the Augian Stable
The Pary cannot serve any purpose by going on as it has been since Wilson declared war of the Trades Unions, which was the beginning of the downhill spiral
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Got my Green Party badge the other day BTW. Maybe I'll wear it to the next branch meeting :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Thing is..

.. we'll never know just how much Corbyn might have needed to compromise
and depart from his principles if he'd become Prime Minister,
and had to weather the storms and unexpected set backs of running our divided nation...???

He obviously would have been a far more honest and trustworthy leader
facing up to the onset of pandemic..

But personally, I doubt he'd have had the necessary stamina to cope with being in power for a full term...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:53 AM

i went to a green party conference in scarborough as a (labour party) observer last year, and actually stood for them for council about 5 years ago and have voted for the in the last euro elections. i continually bang on about green (and scottish) issues in labour constituency meetings. the 'green new deal' is an important initiative that everyone with good will can get behind. It has never caused any difficulty for me in the labour party. there are many areas that the 2 parties should co-operate with. i guess i'm selling out but i wouldn't want to become self-indulgent and bitter, insulting allies who are really doing what we can with the tory problem and saving the environment. all is a bit chaotic no-one really knows the best way to fight the good fight. but we need to be generous to each other. apart from the fu$$ing liberals obviously

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 06:36 AM

"we'll never know just how much Corbyn might have needed to compromise"
That is the case with anyboody who becomes leader
We do know lair came in with both socialist gunz blzing and threw his hands up as soon as he got their
We can only make our judgement on what they say - Corbyn said all the right - (whoops, sorry left) things

I have the benefit of PR here in Ireland so I have numerous preferences
My second preference was the Greens in the last election - but that won't happen again since they have united with the two right wing parties for the privilege of holding office and have already started to compromise on their own policies
Labour shoot itself in both feet several general elections ago buy doing the same thing - it lost decades of gains overnight

Think I've finished here for now - I might come back when the tabloid-like kicking match of "lefties" and Corbyn has run its course
Work calls
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:29 AM

I've never minded being called a leftie, Jim, ever since my East London days in what was by far the most militant NUT local association in the country. We had some real revolutionaries there, though I never saw myself as being among their ranks. And, of course, we had Blair Peach. Now we really WERE lefties...

You are getting way too personal, BWM. It's all just opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:48 AM

"...it's the biggest distraction that we have all fallen for..."

Thing is, Pete, I don't think we've fallen for it as such - the distraction has actually been deliberately orchestrated by a cabal of Labour insiders (it would be too tiresome to list them yet again), aided and abetted by pro-Israel lobby groups such as the Board Of Deputies, and, I strongly suspect, the Israeli regime itself (at least one member of that cabal had close links thereto...). I used to read the local Jewish press in Manchester before I stopped needing to go up north about 18 months ago, and the papers were totally obsessed with going for Corbyn's throat in every way at every opportunity. For all these people, the disastrous downfall of Jeremy Corbyn, and Labour's being cast back into the wilderness, were small prices to pay for getting the more leftist, more pro-Palestinian influence extirpated from the party. Unfortunately, our new leader is conniving in that, and he will be found out. He has shown weakness, and the longer he's at the helm the more that weakness will show through. We simply can't have a world in which the only way to "achieve harmony" or "make ourselves electable" is to get into bed with Benjamin Netanyahu. The US has done that with him and his predecessors for decades and the Palestinian people are the ones whose suffering is perpetuated.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:54 AM

"I've never minded being called a leftie"
Me neither - it just worries me when it happens with people I feel I have things in common with
Let's face it, you only have to look at what's happened to the Labour Party
Before people start pointing fingers they need to examine why the Pary was set up and what has happened to those dreams and objectives
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:29 AM

What about a leftie peftie?

Where's Bonzo when you need him!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:43 AM

It'll be hilarious if Jim and Steve ever start calling each other too right wing..

That'd make me nostalgic for the good old days of the loony left...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:54 AM

well i'm calling for labour (and green and all other progressive forces) unity. i have no desire to get into bed with benjamin netanyahu. or suffer one more day of this ridiculous and dangerous english government. call me a sell-out or whatever you like...as donald trump said of the virus - just ignore all this anti-semitism -it's fictional, it's a distraction a nonsense - and one day it will disappear. or it will be there still but irrelevant against the issues of poverty, peace and inequality that should always be our focus. splitters!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:04 AM

my plan to cheer us all up in these difficult days

1. greek authorities imprison stanley johnson for breaking their quarantine laws
2. boris johnson appeals to the greek govt for release of his father
3. greeks say 'give us back the elgin marbkes and we can do a deal'
4. elgin marbles shipped to athens.
5 stanley johnson shipped to an iranian jail
6 that poor nazarin -radcliffe woman reunited with her family in somewhere lovely
7. boris johnson appeals to the iranian government for his father's release
8. iranians demand that the uk get rid of the nuclear weapons....
9. boris johnson appeals to the EU for help in securing his father's release
10 guy verhofstadt laughs....and laughs....and laughs....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:23 AM

I'm curious why leftist Jews still do not have a much louder voice in the Labour party.

Why are they not more assertively prominent in the fight back against weaponised false accusations...???


Labour Jews who publicly supported Corbyn were routinely marginalised, dismissed, ignored, and vilified
by mainstream media and right wing pro Israel propagandists.

But by now they should be more 'battle hardened',
standing up louder and prouder as an authentic voice of leftist Jewish Labour defense and counter-attack,
against the contrived smear campaigns of the right...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:49 AM

I know we are living in strange times, but.....

Pubs in England will not be allowed to open until 06:00 BST on Saturday, No 10 has confirmed.

Have a drink Saturday

My local is not opening until the 18th at the earliest. Another pub that I use are opening on the 11th. With the new rules and regulations, it is hard to see how many are going to be able to survive if there is no improvement in the virus situation.

Stay safe

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:13 PM

" loony left..."
A phrase straight out of the bumwipe media - funny how thes things catch on with some people
Left is a straightforward description of someone's politics just as "loonie left is a pretty sound guide in working out the politic of the user

There are leftist Jews in the Labour Party - Corbyn was castigated for attending one of their meetings
Emigre Jews inspired the setting up of the Labour Party - until Israel's intervention in British politics when the BDS movement got underway there was never a hint that Labour had a "Jewish problem"
This was MY FAMILY'S INTRODUCTION TO POLITICS - "loony left extremism, of course!
The Jewish left have been quite vociferous in their opposition to the accusations - but like all good things, that sort of information is not for the likes of us

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:22 PM

Read this post from left to right:

student revolutionary>>first teaching job>>union shop steward>>promoted to position of responsibility>>marry>>kids>>mortgage>>buy bigger house>>promoted again>>stop being active in union>>vote against strike>>start to admire what Blair did>>middle age>>inherit a bob or two>>buy BMW>>posh foreign travel>>pay kids' uni fees from Bank Of Mum And Dad>>moan about how high top rate of tax is>>buy cheap bolt-hole in Spain>>buy shares>>decide you can't vote for Corbyn>>vote leave>>move to cottage at the seaside>>wife joins WI, you join golf club>>die thinking you haven't had your fair share...

Ah, how life pulls us in the "right" direction!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:35 PM

Another example of Starmer not exactly showing that he's a pillar of strength, from Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian:

Brexit once dominated our politics; now it is barely mentioned. The Conservative landslide last December seemed to settle it. Many of the Tory MPs who would have raised the coming no-deal threat have been purged. Keir Starmer is wary of raising it: he has his eye on leave seats, and is in no hurry to play the diehard remainer. He didn’t even press the government to seek an extension to the transition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:08 PM

was that your own story, steve - or was it referring to someone else? or just the typical path of many ex-labour supporters?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:38 PM

Nah, Pete. I made it up. I would never buy a Beamer or a bolt-hole in Spain, and wild horses wouldn't get me to a golf course or force me to buy shares, I've never voted against strikes, we only had one house move, the lad paid most of the cost of his university years, I hated Blair, always voted for Jezza, think that leave voters are generally demented and I'm not dead!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM

the "not dead" bit was the give away...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM

So the point of it was.....what?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM

"the "not dead" bit was the give away..."

Yet to be confirmed. I could be alive just from the neck down, with another gap half way down according to the missus... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:35 PM

According to my old man Steve, the expression (for people he held in low regard) was "Dead from the neck up to the navel down"

I use the same expression myself.

Sadly there are few people who comprehend just what I am trying to portrait these days.

As my Father would say.......................!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 05:24 PM

I was wondering whether some kind of emergency massage might just bring the middle bit back to viability... Nurse!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM

Johnson has savaged Care Homes, blaming them for their high rate of contravirus cases

Stamer has been accused of "double Standards" for refusing to sack his Shadow Cabinet Communities Minister, Steve Reed, for making an anti-Semitic statement - pretty well puts into context the reason for these accusations
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 08:44 AM

I said that Starmer was going to make mistakes. The excuse that Reed "didn't know that Desmond was a Jew" isn't good enough. Labour members have been drummed out of the party for less. Either Starmer sacks him or the hawks will continue to circle. Four more years to confirm his unelectability...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 09:38 AM

I wasn't aware that "Puppet Master" was a Jewish trope. I thought a "Puppet Master" was just that a "Puppet Master" someone who pulled the strings whilst others danced.

I'm fairly sure I've met several "Puppet Masters" through my life, I'm not sure that any of them where Jewish.

So just how are we supposed to refer to "Puppet Masters" in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 11:57 AM

"I wasn't aware that "Puppet Master" was a Jewish trope. I thought a "Puppet Master" was just that a "Puppet Master" "
I didn't realise that criticising Israel was antisemitic but that's what he sacked the lady for
If he'd had any sense he would have challenged the term, but that would have really blown the gaff
Instead, he agreed it was and reprimanded Reed for his antisemitism - thus identifying him the two-faced politician he obviously is
He should resign and be replaced with someone prepared to defend the Labour Party
This whole thing stinks of "You're only accusing me because I'm Black"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 01:20 PM

i heard folk talking about spme labour mp's comment on richard desmond on the radio and did not know what they were on about. since when was 'puppet master' an anti-semitic term? really? really? and is richard desmond jewish? really? how would anyone know? or care? what percentage of people reading this story would understand these 2 ideas? perhaps someone could tell us where the offence is? who is claiming to be offended? and why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 03:01 PM

"who is claiming to be offended? and why?"
Does it really matter
What is important is that Staamer said it was and refused to sack the accused
I think this nonsense of everything disapproved of by whoever being "antisemitic" if someone claims it is has to stop
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 04:51 PM

yes, but chris williamson was sacked for - as i remember 'labour needs to stop apologising so much about accusations of anti-semitism' we can't forever be letting labour's extremely sensitive tory enemies set the agenda of what we are allowed to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 05:11 PM

Terms such as puppet-masters, when used to depict people in control of large organisations, secretly pulling strings, are age-old antisemitic tropes when applied to Jews. What Reed did was far worse than what RLB did. She was referring to the activities of the Israeli regime. He was referring to an old stereotyping of Jews. He's a politician, not just any old bloke down the pub. It's no excuse for him to say he didn't know that the chap was a Jew. The Labour Party has history when it comes to kicking someone out of the party despite that excuse. Of course, in that case it was a leftie. In this case, it's a buddy of Sir Keir. Make your own mind up as to whether that's a double standard.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:11 PM

" we can't forever be letting labour's extremely sensitive tory enemies set the agenda of what we are allowed to talk about."
These accusations began four weekes after a meeting between Labour's 'Friends of Israel Group' and members of the Knesset in Jerusalem, which in tturn came a couple of weeks after Corbyn announced his support for the Palestinians
Up to that, there wasn't a whiff of suspicion about "a problem"
Israel ir run by an extremist right wing administration, so the 'Frieds of Israel' are "friends" with a right wing regime
I'm afraid the Tories have little to do with this other than to have leapt on an already moving bandwagon
Work it out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:19 PM

To be clear, I was referring to Marc Wadsworth, expelled after the theatrical put-up job orchestrated by Ruth Smeeth at the launch of the Chakrabarti report on alleged antisemitism in the party. Wadsworth is a lifelong campaigner against racism but that counted for nothing when set against getting a leftie out of the party. Smeeth has long-time links with Israeli politicians and is closely allied with pro-Israel lobby groups in the UK, including Labour Friends Of Israel, BICOM (founded by the son of an Israeli arms dealer, using his dad's wealth) and the Board Of Deputies, for whom she's worked. Wadsworth didn't know Smeeth and didn't know that she was Jewish, but he called her out when he witnessed her colluding with a right-wing journalist. But he's gone, and Reed isn't. As the yanks say, go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM

Smeeth's role in all this HAD BEEN A KEY ONE
I must admit that, when I first became interested in all this I believed it to be a knee-jerk reaction to the threat of BDS, but I am finding that it GOES BACK MUCH FURTHER
This orgainsed interference in international politics has been going on for far longer than anybody imagined
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 02:53 PM

Remember, nobody is allowed to accuse Israel of conspiracies,
not even when then they are so blatantly conspiring,
only a very cowardly fool would deny it was happening...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:07 AM

There was a long letter to The Irish Times yesterday condemning the recent actions in annexing Palestinian land
The letter takes up a column and a quarter, and the list of signatories a column and three waters(36 signatories in all - a worldwide list of political dignitaries, Nobel prizewinners and officers), U.N. committee Members, and human rights representatives - and the former Prime Minister of Norway.
There are a couple of Americans on the list and several Irish ones - but not one single British name - Labour or Conservative
The seem far too busy accusing maverick humanists of "antisemitism"
This act of annexation is one of the most dangerous moves to have taken place in an already toxic aea for a long time, yet ours and America's and many other national and world leaders have washed their hands of it
The British Labour Party Leader has already made his position on Israeli human rights abuses - and we should support this man out of loyalty to the party - 'Hell no - I won't go"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 08:37 PM

So the chancellor has given a 25 grand tax break to people buying houses that cost half a million. Oh, and we can get ten quid off a restaurant meal that we would have been buying, or not, anyway. Oh, and he's giving companies a thousand quid for every employee they take back off furlough. There's one burger chain (the Beeb Coronaviruscast show didn't say which one, but it'll be a lot more than just the one...) will potentially make a hundred million from that, even though they were probably going to take most of them back anyway...

Welcome to Tory Britain. Say "To them that have, it shall be given."   Don't say "We're all in this together."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 04:48 AM

So the chancellor has given a 25 grand tax break to people buying houses that cost half a million. Oh, and we can get ten quid off a restaurant meal that we would have been buying, or not, anyway.

If you only show half the story, of course it can look bad. Everyone (rich & poor) can get the price reduction for eating out, and:
Companies as well as individuals buying residential property worth less than £500,000 will also benefit from these changes, as will companies that buy residential property of any value where they meet the relief conditions from the corporate 15% SDLT charge.
It's worth noting that the average cost of a house in London is now over £500,000

The purpose of the changes is not to put money in the pockets of the rich, but to get the economy moving.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:08 AM

" but to get the economy moving"
Is that confirmation that houses are no longer homes but adjuncts of "the economy" Nigel
As things have stood for a long time, the only people to actually "benefit" from a healthy economy are the well of - mainly the invesstos - all the rest of us have ever been able to hope for is to earn enough to feed our families and pay our mortgages; even "paying the rent" has become a thing of the past", since Mad Maggie all but destroyed rented property.
Would you like to hazard a guess which sections of the society are due to be hardest hit in the next decade or so
INTERESTING ARTICLE HERE
AND HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM

Two things, Nigel. First, I made a mistake: the stamp duty handout is up to £15000, not £25000. Second, the struggling first-time buyers who buy my mum's old house in Radcliffe for £140,000 gain nothing. A first-time buyer in Cornwall buying a two-bed house for, say, £220,000 will gain £1500. Someone buying a £1.4 million house in Richmond, west London, will gain £15,000. As I said, to them that have it shall be given. You bollocked me for telling half the story, then you did that Tory thing of forgetting the word "some" that should have been in your highlighted bit: "individuals buying residential property worth less than £500,000 will also benefit from these changes..." SOME individuals, Nigel, and the ones who gain nothing will overwhelmingly be people living in the poorest parts of the country. As ever, wot Tories do.

As for the meal discount, it's a stunt. If I do decide to eat out in August, which is extremely unlikely around here with all these tourists pouring in, I won't be claiming. As you say, available to everyone, the rich and the poor alike, no targeting of the people who need the most help. As ever, wot Tories do.

As for the furlough bonus, the biggest companies who can more easily soak up their lockdown losses, who were probably going to take back most or all of those workers anyway, must think it's their birthday.

Still, never mind. It's all only taxpayer money after all. The taxpayer who is eventually going to foot the bill for this disaster. And you can bet your bottom quid that it won't be the richest who feel the pain. We have ten years of austerity history to support that prediction. As ever, wot Tories do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:57 AM

Mean while is institutional racism within the police going to be affected by Morris Dancers deciding to not use different colour disguise on their faces?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 07:59 AM

Two things, Nigel. First, I made a mistake: the stamp duty handout is up to £15000, not £25000. Second, the struggling first-time buyers who buy my mum's old house in Radcliffe for £140,000 gain nothing
Only by being 'first time buyers'. And for them they could previously buy a property up to £300,000 without paying stamp duty.
For anyone else the saving on a £140,000 house purchase is small, but not nil.
The previous zero rated band went only up to £125,000.

then you did that Tory thing of forgetting the word "some" that should have been in your highlighted bit:
No, I omitted nothing. I gave a straight quote from the current government guidance:

As for the meal discount, it's a stunt. If I do decide to eat out in August, which is extremely unlikely around here with all these tourists pouring in, I won't be claiming. As you say, available to everyone, the rich and the poor alike, no targeting of the people who need the most help. As ever, wot Tories do.
No! It is targetting the people who need it, the entertainment industry who are trying to keep their businesses afloat.