BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM

Yeah, I'll give you an argument, lynch mob. We live in countries that purport to abide by the rule of law. No matter how vile a criminal may be he's entitled to due process. If you spout on at home about democracy and justice, then mete out ugly brutality in someone else's country, you are absolutely no better than they are. What happened to do as you would be done by?

Not as much as you need manners...

This from a man preaching assassination on a forum! Ha bloody ha.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM

I can't say I often agree with Teribus, but I do on this one. An assassination in the final quarter of WW2 may be different, but the idea that if Hitler had been killed in say 37 that people like Himmler would have opted for a quiet life in the country minding their own business is, I suggest, unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM

And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

I also think Teribus has made some very good points. If you assassinate one tribal potentate, another quickly rises in his place...in this case, it would be Kadhafi's son, of course...and if the son was then assassinated, another such would rise in his place, and right out of the same tribal power structure.

Teribus also says "As far as the armed forces of the Arab countries go it should be remembered that they are there not to protect the country from an external aggressor, they exist to protect the ruling caste."

Yes......okay....but it's overstating the case a little. ;-) What I mean is, yeah, their number one purpose is definitely to protect the ruling caste and keep the domestic public in line....but that doesn't mean that they will not at least attempt to resist an external aggressor...or to launch an external aggression of their own...if given the orders to do so. They most certainly will do both, because it's part of their job. The only question is how effectively will they do it? I doubt that the Libyan Army would do it very effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

I heard a further category in this caper this afternoon.......ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

It's an Alamo situation for Kaddafi and his soldiers. WILL their leader draw a line in the sand an say, "If you'd like to leave, please do." WHAT ARE the odds?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

As plain as the ass on a rainbow-butt monkey!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

As Richard Nixon used to say, 999, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." ;-)

Kadhafi appears to be a man who doesn't give up easily. (And he's very accustomed to getting his own way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM

Guest 999: "And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?"

I think Steve would prefer for Qaddafi to evolve a jail cell around him!
He ain't bangin' on all eight.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Do you remember when President CLinton was told that there was a real holocaust taking place in Rawanda?

He did nothing and over one million people were killed one or two at a time with machetes. Clinton said it was his greatest regret to have done nothing regarding Rawanda.

Obama is apparently responding before a holcaust that was promised by Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

The obvious question is why believe Kadaffy? The obvious answer is that we believe in Libyan oil with or without Kadaffy above all else.

The message over on FOX news is that Obama was a failure for not responding and now that he has responded, Obama is a total failure who in fact may now be legally insane because he responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM

Obama will be criticized no matter what he does, Donuel, just as Bush would have been criticized before him, only by different people. Don't worry about it. ;-)

It's quite correct that Obama has behaved illegally, because like a whole long series of American presidents he has taken the country to war without the consent of Congress (after voting on it in Congress). That is illegal, because it's unconstitutional, but almost every president since FDR has done it, so there's nothing unusual about Obama doing it. They have a war, but don't bother declaring it, that's all.

Therefore, although I am observing that he did something unconstitutional and therefore illegal...I am not raising hell about it or pretending to be OUTRAGED! ;-D It's just one more case of the executive office in the USA acting as if it didn't need Congressional approval, and the rest of the government (aside from Dennis Kucinich, that is!) acting as if they didn't notice. It's standard stuff.

So don't make the mistake of imagining I'm up in arms about it. I'm not. I'm just bemused at how they all pretend to worship the Constitution, but they selectively get around it by doing whatever they want to, regardless...

I think it's also illegal to invade another country for quelling an internal revolt...no matter how much you disapprove of the government that's doing the quelling...

But again, the laws aren't really the determining factor at all. The determining factor is a combination of:

1. strategic interests

and

2. whether or not you can get enough public support to invade that other country

If so, and if the strategic interests are weighty enough, then the invasion (or other form of attack) will go ahead, and most people will pretend it is legal, they'll even believe it's legal, and the usual complications will follow.

And EVERYONE involved will swear they are doing it for the most laudable, patriotic, and humanitarian reasons...but they're all doing it for their own gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

He didn't actually. He said that the opposition was just a few hundred, who would be killed if they resisted.

Mind, I don't think we should rely on anything he said, and he's clearly a murderous bastard.But there doesn't seem much reason for thinking he's unusually murderous compared to the other dictators we cosy up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

No, but he's clearly become "dispensable" as far as the West is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999-- Reuters
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

Canadians abort Libya attack, fearing casualties

Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:25pm GMT

OTTAWA, March 22 (Reuters) - Canadian military aircraft joined in a mission against ground targets in Libya on Tuesday, but did not drop their bombs amid concern there might be civilian casualties, military officials said.

Officials said two CF18 aircraft were assigned to attack a unspecified Libya airfield along with other aircraft from the U.S.-led coalition.

"Upon arrival on the scene in the target area, the air crew became aware of a risk (of collateral damage) they deemed as too high," Major General Tom Lawson, Canada's Assistant Chief of the Air Staff told reporters.

The Canadian jets returned safely to base.

Canada has sent six CF18 fighter jets to the operation and a frigate. It also has refueling aircraft in the region.

It was the second mission for Canadian planes in the campaign to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya to halt attacks on rebels and civilians and open the way for humanitarian help. It was the first time they had been assigned to attack a target.

Defense Minister Peter MacKay said that while the United States is still coordinating air operations, NATO was discussing if and how it should take over the mission.

"There is a further discussion if there will be an evolution of command and control of the entire mission. So no decision have been taken thus far," MacKay told a briefing. (Reporting Allan Dowd, Editing by David

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

152 Tomohawks launched
food and fuel for 6 ships and crew
1 crashed fighter
misc.


total bill so far; 800 million before the misc.

Number of lives saved
priceless

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:35 PM

Libya attacks spark fight over cost

excerpts woth noting from the aboce link

"Rep. Dennis Kucinich, an Ohio Democrat, said Tuesday that he would try to block federal dollars from going to military operations in Libya.

"We have already spent trillions of dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which descended into unwinnable quagmires," Kucinich said in a statement. "Now, the president is plunging the United States into yet another war we cannot afford."

"President Obama has stressed since the start of the operation that the intervention in Libya would be brief. "Let me emphasize that we anticipate this transition to take place in a matter of days and not a matter of weeks," he said Monday."


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:42 PM

I think Obama is unifying our country's polarization.....Now both sides can't stand him!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

"..immediately replaced by his son Saif"

You cannot assume that Libyans would consider the son the embodiment of Libya the way Gadhafi is now seen by many Libyans.   A much better analogy would be the end of the 3rd Reich.   Removing Gadhafi will cause his state to collapse--because of the way he has constructed it--as Hitler did in Germany.

A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head would test the loyalty of his mercenaries rather severely. And is likely to save the West (and the insurgents) a lot of grief (and money).

If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence.

Subject: The HUMAN SHIELDS have just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM

The human shields are coming the human shields are coming

But before we get into that, the 1st order of business is changing the name of the mission 'Odessey Dawn'. It seems Carnival Cruise LInes has a ship by that name and is threatening a lawsuit.
How about Illiad Dusk ?!

I tuned into to CNN today and saw a reporter in Libya steaming mad and yelling aboutsomeone being just plain nuts and that he expected goverments to lie to him but not war time journalists. He was royally PO'ed

After making sure I wasn't watching FOX I listened more carefully.
He said the whole lie is hypocritical and that he is angry that the entire story about human shields is "just plain nuts!"
It turns out that the FOX reporter in Libya, who incidently never leaves the hotel, reported on FOX news that CNN,NBC and CBS reporters were taken as human shields by Goverment forces and that it is not clear if some had volunteered to be a human shield for Muamer Qadafy. "I am shocked and disappointed that the FOX reporter would say such a thing when the only time he is even seen by fellow journalists is at breakfast. Gary Thagen should know that reporters take the goverment tour just to make sure that they can correct any misleading editing the goverment may try. The charge of human shields is ridiculous on its face yet they are sticking to that absurd story.


Jeez Louise, I am proud of this guy. It seems he has never watched FOX news in his life or he would have been desensitized to their reporting style by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 AM

"If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence."

Oh, yes! Let's. By all means! Okay...so, what we have to do is this: Start a big fundraising drive on Mudcat which will raise funds sufficient to send Teribus to Libya for a few weeks so that he can search out the evidence firsthand, compelling and undeniable evidence, well-documented and notarized...evidence sufficent to convince Ron Davies that Teribus might have some real basis for imagining that Saif could successfully take over in Gadhafi's place if Gadhafi were gone.

Then Ron will be satisfied. He will have the "evidence".

I think it's worth doing. What do the rest of you think? Should we get Max to announce such a fundraising drive? Personally, I love the idea of sending Teribus to Libya for an extended period to find evidence that will meet Ron Davies' requirements, and I am confident that he would do a fine job at it.

Okay, I'm gonna start this thing off. I will contribute 25 cents toward this worthy objective of Teribus securing corroborative evidence in Libya to back up what he says in order to make Ron happy.

Anyone else? ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:25 AM

Sorry you don't like evidence, LH.    Thinking people tend to prefer it to a blanket statement with no support.    Thought you might be interested. But perhaps not.

Look, Hitler was held by many Germans for many years in high esteem--and fear. At the end, it was just fear.   And there was no future for his state.   Exactly the same thing is happening to Gadhafi.   

And the process would be expedited by a $10 million price on his head.

It would be a cheap investment for the West. Either somebody would carry out the mission--or Gadhafi's paranoia would increase--and steadily alienate more Libyans-until his removal. Probably soon.

It's always good to encourage paranoia in your opponents--(as long as they are not nuclear-armed. )

Tends to impair their judgment.




Meanwhile, the West should provide intelligence, weapons, and training to the insurgents.

And no ground troops.

As all sides agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

Ah, the ghost of that criminal Ronnie Raygun refuses to lie down...

Why don't we just send a bloody posse?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:18 AM

An excellent "rent a mob" in Tripoli - all nutters!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

"A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head

And Gaddafi could put a similar price tag on the heads of Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy.

There's a reason our leaders fight shy of that kind of thing...

..........................

Libya: Six injured as US team botches rescue of downed airmen : US forces sent into Libya to rescue two downed American airmen botched the mission by shooting and wounding friendly villagers who had come to help, witnesses have said.

Tricky, given that the whole official reason for this war is to protect civilians. Still, they were Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM

"   send a bloody posse... ".

So sorry you're squeamish about the civil rights of Mr. Gadhafi.    Interestingly, he doesn't
himself seem to be squeamish about the issue.    In fact he's had no hesitation in putting a price on the head of the provisional government's leader. Turnabout is fair play.   Perhaps you've heard of this expression.   Or perhaps not.

And he keeps talking about looking forward to being a martyr.   The least we can do is oblige him---and by doing so,, keep lots more people alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM

" ...   similar price tag..."    That's why Secret Service-type groups exist.

Leaders know it goes with the territory.

Perhaps you're not interested in the job of leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM

*Sigh* the lynch mob rules...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

Steve, you are a smart guy--please read NO facetiousness into that observation. What would you rather have seen happen? The Man with a Thousand Spellings was killing many of his own people just as he has killed many foreign nationals through his association with terrorist groups. This time he's on the receiving end of some bad shit. So, again, how would you have handled it if you'd had your druthers?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:37 AM

I'd sooner a situation in which, when a war starts, the efforts of both sides were spent on trying to kill the leaders on the other side, rather than ordinary citizens or soldiers. But I don't think the leaders on either side see it quite like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

A snippet from 'The Great French Duel'

"The next thing in order was the choice of weapons. My principal said he was not feeling well, and would leave that and the other details of the proposed meeting to me. Therefore I wrote the following note and carried it to M. Fourtou's friend:

Sir: M. Gambetta accepts M. Fourtou's challenge, and authorizes me to propose Plessis-Piquet as the place of meeting; tomorrow morning at daybreak as the time; and axes as the weapons.
I am, sir, with great respect,

Mark Twain."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

Gadaffi provided to his people, free education, free health service and cheap housing.
As a leader, he was far ahead of any in North Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM

That is correct ake ... that explains why there are many diehard supporters now fighting for his side.

To bad Gadaffi was over taken by illusions of grandeur and evil, (very evil) madness.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM

An interesting interview with Dennis Kucinich .... ok, ok it's a FOX production and the guy is a loudmouth, but regardless listen to Dennis, he has some interesting concerns to say.

Dennis speaks out

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

They just needed the SAS to go in, that was all...

If they'd been there last night, when The Crazy One was spouting off madly, just a short clean shot, BANG!

"Oops, we seem to have lost The President!"

Then the people would take over..and the supporters would disappear because all the money he's been giving them would have stopped...

This way, The Mighty Jihad may well come riding across many deserts on his Camel...and then, Allah Help Us All...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

Acutally, maybe we should all start learning to shout "AHUA!" at the tops of our voices..

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Go to Libya? Hell no problem.

Ron wants evidence? Yet offers none to support his own view of what would happen if Muammar Gaddafi shuffled off his mortal coil.

Is the Libyan State even remotely like Nazi Germany? - No it is not, the Nazi Party was essentially a political party. The Libya of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi is "tribal", basically the Arab-Berber tribes (three off) and the Touaregs of the west up against the umpteen Arab-Berber tribes and Touben of the East and the South.

Now let me recall what happened in Syria when old man Assad died? Oh yes his son Young Assad stepped right into his shoes and that was a society that was both tribal and modelled on Hitler's Nazi Party, as was the Ba'athist regime of Saddam Hussein whose sons were both groomed to take over from their father.

Now let us have another look at Libya, who has been acting as spokesman? The Prime Minister?? Nope. Any other "Government" Minister apart from the Foreign Minister who did the comedy act ceasefire declaration - That was immediately violated?? Nope. What about Gaddafi's eldest son, Saif al-Islam Muammar Al-Gaddafi, oh yes we have seen him broadcasting messages to the people of Libya and to the rest of the world. Meanwhile what is his other son doing? He is leading armoured units of the Gaddafi forces so he is too busy to talk to television reporters.

Naw Ron, LH, Max no need to send me to Libya all the indications are there as plain as a pike-staff who would take over should anything happen to Muammar Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM

Why is the gadaffi renta mob always jumping up and down? Could it be that they have taken medicine and forgotten to shake the bottle???

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

The sustained attacks by the US military on the sovereign nation of Libya constitute a declaration of war.

The United States is now at war with three Muslim-dominated countries at the same time. That is a big mistake no matter how much we dislike Khaddafi.

George Bush went before Congress and got full legal authorization to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait in 1991.

George W. Bush got full Congressional approval to oust the Taliban and attack al-Queda, headquartered in Afghanistan, back in 2001.

GWB again got full legal approval for Phase III of the Gulf War, the ouster of Saddam Hussein's government.

In contrast, Bill Clinton had our military attempt to bomb Serbia back to the Stone Age with no approval, as required by the United States Constitution.

Obama has started a war, also without any attempt to get Congressional approval.

In fact, most members of Congress knew nothing about it. Obama seems to have ordered the attacks from a tent while visiting Brasil.

Dennis Kucinich is quite correct on this one. Obama's actions here are unconstitutional.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

The assumption that most Libyans want rid of Gaddafi is just that, an assumption. It may be a correct assumption, but nobody in public life or the media appear to have any interest in examining or testing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM

"The sustained attacks by the US military on the sovereign nation of Libya constitute a declaration of war."

Um, not really, it is the implementation of UN Security Council resolution 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM

Someone, I cannot recollect who said that Gaddafi retains the support of the majority of his people.

Well if was left to Gaddafi that sentence would definitely be true as by the time he had finished the "opposition" and their families, second cousins and their pet tortoises would all be dead, most certainly leaving the majority support claimed.

This conflict has got nothing whatsoever to do with "democracy" the people of Libya want an end to a tribal kleptocracy that has been running the country for the last 40 years. What may well happen is that Libya will fragment and split in the three former "states" - Tripolitania (North-West); Cyrenaica (East); Fezzan (South-West). If that happened each would be independently wealthy as the oil & gas fields seem fairly evenly distributed with:

- Tripolitania having both onshore and offshore fields

- Fezzan obviously only onshore but it would have to export it's product through the two existing pipeline systems that run to the coast through Tripolitania

- Cyrenaica onshore fields, but with its own export facilities

The Libyan population consist of members of the following tribes:

Berbers (north-western Tripolitania)
Touaregs (south-western Fezzan)
Tebou (South Cyrenaica)
Arabs & Arab-Berbers (western and eastern across Tripolitania and Cyrenaica)

The latter group consists of the following tribes:
Siann (Tripolitania)
El Magarha (Tripolitania)
El Hasauna (Fezzan)

The above Arab-Berber tribes could be viewed as being in Gaddafi's camp.

Mugharbah (Cyrenaica)
Zuwayah (Cyrenaica)
Awaqir (Cyrenaica)
Abid (Cyrenaica)
Fawakhir (Cyrenaica)
Barasa (Cyrenaica)
Arafah (Cyrenaica)
Darsa (Cyrenaica)
Abaydat (Cyrenaica)
Majabrah (Cyrenaica)
Awajilah (Cyrenaica)
Minifah (Cyrenaica)

The above mentioned "eastern" Arab-Berber tribes mainly constitute the revolt.

The whole thing is further complicated by the aforementioned tribes being split even further into a collective number of some 140 "clans" with all ot those tribes

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:41 PM

Quite agree bobad, the United States of America is currently at war with no-one - FACT

Iraq:
US Forces present in the country at the specific request and agreement of the Iraqi Government

1. US forces withdrawn from the streets of Iraqi towns and cities 29th June, 2009.

2. US troops ended combat missions in Iraq on 31st August, 2010

3. US troops will all have left Iraq by 31st December 2011.

Afghanistan:
US & ISAF troops operating in Afghanistan under a United Nations Mandate and at the specific request of the Government of Afghanistan

1. October 2006 US-OEF Forces in Afghanistan reassigned from direct CENCOM command to ISAF Command

2. July 2011, first five Provinces to be handed over to ANSF troops who will assume sole responsibility for security.

3. December 2014 all 34 Afghan Provinces will be under the direct control of ANSF, with remaining ISAF troops in training and support roles.

Libya:
US, UK, French, Canadian, Norwegian & Danish forces operating under UN Mandate requested by the Arab League and by the GCC.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

Further to my post above, regarding Col Gadaffi's governance of Libya.

UN Human DevelopementReport 2010,rates Libya far higher than any other North African state, in terms of Health, Education and Income.

Libya...53rd. Tunisia...81st. Algeria...84th Egypt...101st. Morroco...114th.

"Moreover, Col Gadaffi probably does think that Al Quaeda is behind the rebellion in East Libya....as he has passed the names of hundreds of Islamic extremists to the CIA."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

...the people of Libya want an end to a tribal kleptocracy that has been running the country for the last 40 years.

That may be true, or it may not be. Stating it doesn't prove it to be true.

It is clear that there are a lot of Libyans who want to get rid of him, but also that there are a lot of Libyans who support him. Which lot are more numerous is unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM

Billions in gold, currency and in property stowed away in various accounts and banks spread all over the world in Gaddafi and his familiy's names atests to the "kleptocracy" part.

Here's a bit more information on Muammar Gaddafi for you Akenaton, you being such an admirer of the man and his form of "government":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi

It makes interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM

Come on T, you know me better than that!

I'm simply pointing out the contradictions in our policy/adventure.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

Ake, I think you and Steve Shaw are right to do so. There are aspects of UN 1973 that make this old boy a bit nervous. It actually mentions 'boots on the ground'.

Frankly I'd like to see 'botg' in the Cote d'Ivoire, but is seems skin colour still matters in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

The United States Congress has not used the term "declaration of war" to authorize a military conflict since 1942. Still, we have had wars in Korea, Viet Nam, Kuwait, Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan and probably other nations.

I believe that the 1949 Geneva Conventions are so restrictive that no country wants to make a formal declaration of war and subject themselves to the onerous restrictions.

Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lybia have the regular US military squaring-off against the military of a sovereign country, not a terrorist group.

If anyone really thinks that is not "war", they need to do a better job of explaining why.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM

Very interesting info about the tribal affiliations in Libya, Teribus. It's another case of an artificial country created, like Iraq, by a colonial power that drew some nice lines on a map, but without regard to the different tribal or cultural groups who would share that land under the colonial administration...and after it left them to themselves.

I note that Ron has not replied to any of this with any "evidence" of his own...probably because he has none. ;-) He is thus hoist on his own petard.

****

I don't agree that the USA is not at war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, because I don't particularly care about the arcane legal distinctions which politicians use to label one armed conflict or occupation as being "at war" and another one as something else. I think it's just lawyer's trickery, that gambit, and a war is a war, period, regardless of legal chicanery to the contrary, and anyone with half a grain of sense can see it's a war. But I don't expect we'll ever agree on that one, and who really gives a toss if we do, right? ;-) I know I don't. But it's something to talk about if one has the time and the inclination.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:41 PM

"lines on a map, but without regard to the different tribal or cultural groups who would share that land under the colonial administration..." ~ Birdfeathers

No, you keep trying to paint all Western attempts at peace as being imperialism. They are not.

The British were given the job of building a viable country called Iraq out of three disparate regions, one dominated by Kurds, one by Sunni Arabs and the third by Shiites.

The thankless job was awarded to the Brits by the League of Nations after the Ottoman Empire collapsed in WW I. That job eventually fell to the US, and things are going better than most expected.