No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics

Subject: DT Correction: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle)
From: BobKnight
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 06:12 AM

A word of warning - if you sing "No Mans Land," sometimes known as Willie McBride, or The Green fields Of France, do NOT use lyrics you find on the internet - they are absolute rubbish. I down-loaded lyrics for this song, then checked it against the original version by Eric Bogle. Whole lines had been changed -others lost entirely. It's the worst case of screwed up lyrics I've ever seen - so to everybody, I would suggest you check the words with Eric Bogle's original version on Youtube - you may be in for a nasty surprise. I know this can sometimes be passed off as "The Folk Process," but I'm talking of whole lines being reversed, dropped, changed and generally screwed around with. Here, near as dammit are the original words.

NO MAN'S LAND
(Eric Bogle)

How do you do, Private William McBride,
Do you mind if I sit here, down by your grave side
And I'll rest for a while in the warm summer sun,
I've been walking all day Lord, and I'm nearly done
I see by your grave stone your were only nineteen,
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916
Well I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean,
Or Willie McBride was it slow and obscene

CHORUS:
Did they beat the drum slowly, did they sound the fife lowly
Did the rifles fire o'er ye as they lowered you down
Did the bugles sound the last post in chorus
Did the pipes play "The Flooers of the Forest."

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind,
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
And though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you always nineteen
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane
In an old photograph torn, and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame
CHORUS

Well the sun's shining now on these green fields of France,
The warm wind blows gently and the red poppies dance
The trenches have vanished, long under the plow,
No gas, and no barbed wire, no guns firing now
But here in this graveyard, it's still no man's land,
The countless white crosses, in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man,
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned
CHORUS

And I can't help but wonder now Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here, know why they died
Did you really believe them when they told you the cause,
Did they really believe that this war would end war
The suffering, the sorrow, the glory the shame,
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again and again, and again and again
CHORUS

---

Note from Joe Offer 18 Mar 2013 (also posted in the DT Attributions thread):
"No Man's Land" by Eric Bogle
filename[ NOMANLD
Looks like an exact transcription of the lyrics from ericbogle.net - just one typo in the second line - the word "gy" is obviously incorrect. I question "no Willie McBride" in the first line of the fourth verse, but that's also what they have on the Bogle Website.
BobKnight's transcription and the DT version are essentially the same, with a few minor differences. I will agree that Bob's transcription is generally closer to to the lyrics Bogle sings on the By Request CD.
Note that ericbogle.net claims to be the official Eric Bogle Website. It does seem authentic, but note that it is located in South Africa. Even "official Websites are often wrong.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 06:26 AM

Good one, Bob.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 07:23 AM

Thanks, Bob.

I don't object to the 'folk process' as such, and it has to be said that words to songs often change simply because someone has misheard them...

For example, what about the Dubliners on the BBC2 Folk awards? The first line of Dirty Old Town 'I met my love by the gasworks cross'!! Ewan wrote 'croft' - and the gas works in question is only around a mile from the Lowry Theatre where the awards were presented!!

My real gripe is with those conceited people who change the words because they don't like the ones that were written, particularly when the writer is still living. The songwriter probably worked long and hard to get the words right, so who are they to change them? More to the point, why sing the song?!

A case in point being a time when I was singing Alan Bell's 'Windmills' on live radio - with Alan sitting next to me joining in on the chorus! Before I sang it, I asked him to check I had the words right, and one word (yes, just one!) was wrong - but it meant I was able to sing the song as Alan wrote it.

Okay, I will concede that an historical or other factual inaccuracy could be an exception, and words that a singer may be uncomfortable with, or could offend their audience, may be another... but then again, why sing the song at all?

I'm lucky enough to know Ted Edwards as a friend, and I sing some of his songs - I'm one of the 'cronies' on his CD 'Ted Edwards... and Cronies'. The CD came about because Ted had a stroke many years ago, which sidelined his performing career.

The number of people singing Ted's 'Coal Hole Cavalry' (which he describes as a medley of his greatest hit!) using words Ted didn't write is amazing (the song itself is amazing, too!)... in the first line, most people sing 'cobbles', where Ted wrote 'flags' (meaning paving stones). However, I digress!

I don't have a big problem with people altering unimportant words to suit their own speech patterns - particularly when a song is in dialect that is 'foreign' to the singer - but yet again, why sing the song in the first place?

Where the original version of the lyric is known, I would suggest a singer owes it to the songwriter (as Bob has done) to research what was originally written to be as fair as possible to the songwriter. Traditional songs (as defined by 'author unknown') are a different matter, simply because (in most cases) no-one really knows what was originally written.

Subject: Lyric Correction: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: maeve
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 07:28 AM

The version entered into the DT needs tweaking
@displaysong.cfm?SongID=4251

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Silas
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 07:41 AM

Well, 'On Morcambe Bay' that has been talked about so much siung by ChristyMoore, has completely different words than those written by Kevin Littlewood....

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 08:15 AM

Ah yes, Christy Moore... he doesn't let accuracy get in the way of a good song!! ;o)

It's surprising how many people think he wrote 'Ride On', too...

I'm not knocking Christy, he's done a great job in bringing folk to the attention of many people. Planxty... need I say more?

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 08:21 AM

How about this, then? I lifted it from this website...


WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY
Lyrics: Stephen L. Suffet

This is the reply that Willie McBride gives to Eric Bogle, set to the same tune as 'No Man's Land'.


My dear friend Eric, this is Willie McBride,
Today I speak to you across the divide,
Of years and of distance of life and of death,
Please let me speak freely with my silent breath.

You might think me crazy, you might think me daft,
I could have stayed back in Erin, where there wasn't a draft,
But my parents they raised me to tell right from wrong,
So today I shall answer what you asked in your song.

Yes, they beat the drum slowly, they played the pipes lowly,
And the rifles fired o'er me as they lowered me down,
The band played "The Last Post" in chorus,
And the pipes played "The Flowers of the Forest."

Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this boy with his tin hat and gun.

And call it ironic that I was cut down,
While in Dublin my kinfolk were fighting the Crown.
But in Dublin or Flanders the cause was the same:
To resist the oppressor, whatever his name.

Yes, they beat the drum slowly...,,,.

It wasn't for King or for England I died,
It wasn't for glory or the Empire's pride.
The reason I went was both simple and clear:
To stand up for freedom did I volunteer.

It's easy for you to look back and sigh,
And pity the youth of those days long gone by,
For us who were there, we knew why we died,
And I'd do it again, says Willie McBride.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: BobKnight
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 08:25 AM

I don't mind the folk process either, but the version I downloaded was like that line in the last verse - it was "butchered and damned." :)

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 08:32 AM

Hah!

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 08:51 AM

When Luke Kelly sang ' Dirty Old Town ' he sang the proper words, the newest Dubliner, Patsy Watchorn obviously doesn't know them, in fact he is the only new member I do not particularly like, he sounds like a showband singer.

Dave H

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 09:35 AM

Eggcisely!

My point was, considering they were within spitting distance of the location Ewan wrote about, you'd have though someone would have researched it... especially as it was being broadcast, and probably recorded (albeit unofficially!) for posterity...

I agree, Patsy Watchorn doesn't even sound like a 'Dubliner' - he lacks the raw edge we've all come to know and love!

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 10:30 AM

An Irish Airman Foresees His Death

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.

                        -- W. B. Yeats

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 10:46 AM

Now that's what I call a poem.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Silas
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 10:50 AM

Yes, cheered me up no end.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 11:00 AM

Check the tune and all!
Eric Bogle sings the word "down" in the chorus just one semi-tone below the previous note e.g. G to F#, whereas the Fureys sing it a tone and a half below, e.g. G to E - hence you have a crunchy clash of notes if some people are singing one version and some the other!

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Morris-ey
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 11:18 AM

I believe the Fureys also sing the line "The countless white crosses, in mute witness stand" as "The countless white crosses, stand mute in the sand"

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 12:20 PM

Of course I meant Yeats's poem.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 12:26 PM

Bernard - there was no need to go abroad to get Stephen Suffet's song - it's here in the DT: WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY.

Mick

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:11 PM

And there's another parody called NOT WILLIE MCBRIDE that begins;

Have you heard of that song about Willie McBride?
If I hear it again, it'll turn me inside,
For it's sung in the springtime and sung in the fall,
But mostly by people who shouldn't sing at all.
You go down to the pub on a Saturday night
For a pint and a song and things are all right,
Till some drunken punter comes up by your side
Saying, 'Shing ush that shong about Willie McBride.'

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:24 PM

While I cannot argue about 'Getting the words right' with current composed songs , I find that over a period of years , the way I would phrase something often varies from what the original composer wrote . This is a totally random example of 'the folk process' and is NOT a deliberate change of lyrics !

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:26 PM

Did Eric Bogle write "white crosses" and not "tomb stones"?

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: BobKnight
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM

He sings "White crosses," on the version I got of him singing it on youtube, which is where I copied the words directly from his singing.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:44 PM

As an occasional singer of written songs (as opposed to, I guess, not-written ones) I find that I'll sometimes find a line that I just can't hack. One that's either hard to sing or clumsy or just half-assed. And I'm talking about my own songs!

The process of writing goes on forever. The song is a road, and the road goes on forever. No song is ever "finished;" some just escape.

Sometimes something I wrote doesn't sing well, or is clumsy or even just wrong, and it takes a while of singing it to realize that the word or phrase or line doesn't work, or the verse could even be dropped, or two verses shoved together, throwing out half of each to do so. It's a process, and getting there is half the fun. So I rewrite, sometimes on the fly, or change styles and accompaniment.

But I have been known to rewrite a word or two of other folks' songs as well. I sing "Old Bill Pickett," which ends with these lines:

"Old Zack Miller wrote these lines,
And left them there for me to find
To put to music and sing to you."

Well, I didn't find the lines and put 'em to music. So I changed it to:

"Old Zack Miller wrote these lines,
And left them there for me to find
To learn the music and sing to you."

The first version can only be sung by one person -- the writer, Mark Ross, and anyone who sings it as written is essentially taking on Mark Ross' persona as he sings (You can do that in first-person songs like "Oh, my name's Napoleon Boounaparte..." or "My name is is Sam Hall, damn your eyes!", but Old Bill Pickett isn't that kind of song).

There's a Tom Paxton song I sing, "Out of Luck and Out On Another Highway," where he had a bridge that I thought made a damned fine chorus; so I and my friends sing it that way, despite how he wrote it.

So I agree mostly with this thread -- certainly for Eric Bogle's songs, since those are crafted really well, and for lots of others' songs, too -- but reserve the right to fix what I think needs fixing in any song I sing. Call it "personalizing."

And I expect to be taken to task if I let that tendency get out of hand. It goes with the territory.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: JHW
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:58 PM

Thanks Bob for giving this another mention. The 'Irish' version does upset me with its dumbed down lyrics and ironed out melody though its much more likely this is the one you'll hear. I say Irish because I asked one performer where he got it from and he showed me a book of 101 Irish songs.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 04:56 PM

Must admit the last time I spoke to Eric Bogle he stated that he did not mind his songs, particularly this one being changed. He was quite pleased that his song became popular even though many of the words and the title, had been changed. Many writers often change the words of their own songs, if they believe they need it, John Conolly and Punch and Judy man for example.
For those of us that attempt to write songs, how many are not happy with the first or even one hundred and first, attempt and change it. I tried singing the proper version of No Mans Land at a folk club only to be requested to sing the one that was made famous and everybody knew. Must admit I much prefer the original version.
Many songs are claimed to be Irish JHW, John Conolly's Fiddlers Green also appears in many song books as Irish traditional. Rose of Allendale is claimed both by the Iris and by the Scots and I believe it to be English (Northumberland)
Life is not simple and certainly folk music seems to have a life of its own, that's what I like about it. I certainly believe I have the right to change any song if I believe I should, and on the odd occasion do so. Fortunately for the rest of the world not many people hear me sing, just an unfortunate few in West and South Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Bugsy
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 07:24 PM

Here's a link to Eric's official website with lyrics.
Eric's official lyric

Hope this helps

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 09:24 PM

Dadgummit Bugsy, that's what I was gonna do!

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 10:18 PM

Someone should set that Yeats poem to music (I don't know if anyone has already.)

Jon Corelis
Kaleidoscope: Great Poems Set to Music

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Dead Horse
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 10:49 PM

Erics lyrics

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 06:18 AM

I wonder why "white crosses."
Crosses are not used in the British and Commonwealth cemeteries for the very good reason that many were not Christians.
No distinction for rank, race or creed.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 06:54 AM

Because it's a nice piece of symbolic imagery?
Would make sense.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: gnomad
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 07:45 AM

A little licence exercised by EB. While British and Commonwealth graves had a bow-topped stone (in many cases incorporating a religious symbol in the inscription) the French used white crosses extensively.

The hypothetical WMcB would more likely be found under a British-type stone, but there are certainly plenty of white crosses to be found.

A few images.

"White crosses" makes the point quickly, effectively, and brings to my mind some powerful photos. The slight technical quibble is just that, and does not detract from the song in the least, IMO.

My main regret about the changes that have occurred over time (apart from the butchery committed by certain performances) is that EB dropped his earlier reference to "the bugles sing the last post in chorus"; a fine choice of word, and most apt.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: BobKnight
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:45 AM

Not just "white crosses," but "countless white crosses," giving the poetic device of alliteration. :)

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:51 AM

Jon - a quick search for "An Irish Airman..." song returns several versions, including versions by Shane McGowan (on a Yeats' tribute album) and The Waterboys.

Several of his early poems have been set and Yeats himself used to sing some of them (though by all accounts he was a terrible singer).

Mick

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Silas
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:59 AM

The French white crosses are concrete, the Americans used white crosses, the Germans used black for some reason.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: thetwangman
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 09:00 AM

Patsy Watchorn was a fine singer in his younger days. I don't think it's fair to compare a 67 year old Patsy with a 30 year old Luke or Ronnie. Ronnie's voice wasn't what it used to be when he was 67 and poor old Luke's voice wasn't the best when he passed away at the age of 43. I thought Patsy looked rather humbled at the awards as I don't think he felt the award was really for him.

Patsy, like a lot of Irish singers, normally sings "gasworks wall" instead of "gasworks croft", which is a real bugbear of mine. I think "wall" became the norm in Ireland after Luke Kelly made a mistake on the Dubliners original recording of the song in 1968. Luke, who obviously knew the correct words, sang "croft" on the first verse, but on repeating the first verse at the end of the song he hesitates slightly and sings "factory wall" twice. I'd say most of the ballad groups on the Irish scene at the time would have got the words from this recording. A lot of them, maybe not knowing what a "croft" was, ended up singing "wall" instead, and that's what everybody would have heard in the pubs.

I have to say I was surprised to hear Patsy sing "cross" at the folk awards as I've never heard him sing that before. Maybe somebody "in the know" tried to point out the correct words but Patsy misheard them. You know what the English are like with their funny accents.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: thetwangman
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 09:51 AM

Now that I think about it, the Dubs were probably asked by the producers to sing Dirty Old Town for the finale because they were in Salford. Knowing that Patsy normally sings "wall", I would have pulled him aside to make sure he got the words right. Maybe somebody had the same thought but there was a mix up and we ended up with "cross".

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

Thanks to Mick Pearce for the note on the Yeats song. I'll look up those versions -- in fact, I'd like to find the Yeats tribute album.

Jon Corelis
Kaleidoscope: Great Poems Set to Music

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: JHW
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:37 AM

I didn't know EB had dropped "the bugles sing the last post in chorus" but I will continue with it on the rare November occasions that I sing it as it sounds fine to me.
I do prefer John Conolly's original Punch and Judy Man chorus.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:38 AM

My own opinion is likely to find equal disfavor from both sides of the issue. Odd, how often that happens.

I find "No Man's Land" a good example of why anti-war songs are almost always bad songs. It reminds me of Keats's comment that "We hate poetry that has a palpable design design upon us - and if we do not agree, seems to put its hand in its breeches pocket." Songs like this seem to say, "If you don't like me, then you're not against war." They also provide a spurious moral comfort by implicitly (as in "No Man's Land") or explicitly (as in Dylan's "Masters of War") blaming war on "them" -- them being capitalists/fascists/arms-merchants/jingoists/fill-in-the-blank. If war is "their" fault, then it can't be the singer's, or the listener's. Thus the song constructs a cozy moral cocoon, in which we can congratulate ourselves for not being evil. Finally, on a somewhat deeper and subtler level, such songs actually provide an apologia for war by implying that war is a tragedy -- and a tragedy by definition (cf. the phrase "tragic inevitability") is something that can't be stopped and is no one's fault. I don't know how to stop wars, but I'm pretty sure that looking wistfully at the sky and whispering "Why?" isn't going to do it.

As for "Willie McBride's Reply," I've never actually heard the song, but judging from the lyrics, I'd call it the most hilarious embodiment of jock-strap militarism since "The Ballad of the Green Berets."


Jon Corelis
Windows of Air: Songs by Jon Corelis

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 01:01 PM

JHW. Thats the chorus I sing also. I got the chance a few months ago to talk to John at a Keith Marsden Tribute in Morley and told him of my (and I now know, your) preference, he was not upset. His attitude is that he is honored every time anyone sings any of his songs. I know of one occasion when he was giving a concert and asked a friend of mine to sing one of his songs "Esplanade" has he had heard him sing it well in the past.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 01:57 PM

Some singers have been known to change their own words. I'm not sure what he's singing nowadays but I have a recording of Richard Thompson singing "Down Where the Drunkards Roll" where he changes the line "You can be lord Jesus, all the world will understand" to "You can mock lord Jesus, all the world will understand".

Then there are those who change tunes. If you listen to someone singing the "City of New Orleans" you can tell whether they learned the tune from John Prine who made it famous or the late Steve Goodman who wrote it.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 02:08 PM

Well then - what about the so-called "folk process"?

It appears we're quite happy to accept variant versions of traditional songs, the authorship of which has not yet surfaced, and we accept these variant products of the folk process. When the same process occurs with more modern songs whose authorship we know - shock horror.

Interesting...

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: HWinWindies
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 02:14 PM

Keith, on many Commonwealth grave markers crosses are carved bas-relief on the stones.
Almost all French are white crosses. The German markers are simple black-painted metal crosses, and the cemetries seemed far less visited, but they were theinvading force not the defending force. Apparently there was considerable opposition to German Cemetries from the local towns and villages immediately following the 1914-1918 war.
I remember discussing this with Eric Bogle in Port Fairy Folk Festival in 1983 but was too drunk to remember the answer.
Harry

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 04:33 PM

Bogle's song was not written by someone sitting in their garden shed thinking "Right, let's write an anti war song" I have heard him say that he wrote it following a visit to a cemetery in Northern France. It was an emotional response to something he saw and which gave him pause for thought. It does not matter whether most war graves have crosses or not I have no reason to doubt the truth of what he said he saw.

Without wishing to teach Granny about egg sucking there are clearly people unaware of two other points he used to make in introducing this song. 1) The title: What struck him was the age of the fallen; they were only boys, hence "still no man's land" The term no man's land is multi layered, resonant.   2) It was never intended as an Irish song. The pipes playing the Scottish lament Floo'ers o' the Forest is redolent of Scottish or expat Scottish troops.

Lastly if you want to know if this is a good song then have a look round a room of ordinary people when it is being sung even half well. Not people whose main interest is how the singer compares to their own mastery but people touched by a voice they can hear reminding them of something too easily and too often forgotten

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 04:54 PM

I generally agree with Jon Corelis, except that the "Reply" seems to me to be no less committed to the truth than the original. It also has more interesting details.

Both, however, are mainly rehashes of favorite cliches - quite unlike Yeats's "Irish Airman."

In other words, if you don't already share the writer's opinion, either one is likely to nettle you considerably. But if you do share it, you'll feel that satisfying pang of sympathy.

Both Bogle's and Suffet's lyrics say far more than Barry Sadler's "The Ballad of the Green Berets." The "folk" however, bought two million copies of that one in the first six weeks alone, mainly, I suspect, because it was catchy, topical, and had a heroic death and symbolic resurrection at the end.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 04:08 AM

Fasteddy.....

Many recordings of Hamish Henderson's 'Banks of Sicily' have lyrics which have been drastically changed. The Clancy's version is an example.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:02 AM

"The pipes playing the Scottish lament Floo'ers o' the Forest is redolent of Scottish or expat Scottish troops."

I think you are right and it could possibly be localised even further. Bogle is a Scottish Borderer. The song Flowers Of The Forest originally pertained to the young men of Ettrick Forest who never came back from the Battle of Flodden. The song has a special place in the minds of many people from the central Borders. I did read that Hamish Imlach said that whilst they were touring together Bogle wrote most of the song in a hotel room in Germany sometime after Bogle had visited cemeteries in France. Seemingly the name "McBride" had stuck in Bogle's mind - let's face it probably because of no other reason other than it rhymes and scans with graveside! I suspect that the rest of the detail is all probably poetic license. The song is about all the war dead not just one individual. Whether the McBride in question was actually a Willie - or a Tom, Dick or Harry, and whether he was Scottish or Irish or Martian isn't really the point.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:43 PM

The Floo'ers O' The Forest was composed after the Battle of Flodden as a lament for the fallen of both sides, the late Ray Fisher sang a very beautiful version of the song.

Dave H

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Rog Peek
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 04:09 PM

On both the live version on utube, and the version on "Eric |Bogle By Request" Eric sings:

"Did the bugles sing the last post in chorus."

Rog

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics also Raglan R
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:11 PM

Luke Kelly made changes to Raglan Road which do not improve the song.
First line Kelly sings "of on an autumn day" whereas Kavanagh wrote "on an autumn day". Perhaps the Dubliner thought the "of" was more in keeping with the poet's rural background.
Also in the same verse he sings "I passed along the enchanted way" instead "I walked along...".
In the last verse he sings "That I had loved", it is "That I had wooed not not as I should", which sounds better. Assonance rules especially in Irish poetry.
But I still love Luke Kelly's singing.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:33 PM

"The Floo'ers O' The Forest was composed after the Battle of Flodden as a lament for the fallen of both sides"

The earliest version we actually have was written by Jean Elliot a Scottish Borderer some 200 years after Flodden though it was inspired by an earlier lost ballad of which only a couple of lines remained. If you read the words it is definitely mourning the loss of the Scottish dead only. The Flowers of the Forest were the young men of Ettrick Forest just as the Flower of Scotland were the men of the Scottish army at Bannockburn. By tradition, though it is probably much exaggerated, of all the men who left the Selkirk area to go to Flodden only one returned. His name was Fletcher and again myth has it that he waved the captured English flag (which still exists in Selkirk) over his head before he too fell.

"Dule an wae for the order, sent our lads tae the border; The English for aince by guile wan the day; The Flowers of the Forest that focht aye the foremost, the prime of our land are cauld in the clay"

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:34 PM

Songs change in the singing - typically someone singing songs they made themelves will change them over the years, consciously or unconsciously. For example, words that look right on the page wille elide into words that sing better.

It's not uncommon for people who regard an early version (which has been recorded) as holy writ to complain that the person who wrote it in the first place is getting the words wrong. Or the tune.

What matters is whether any changes are for the better, whoever makes them. If they are for the better they will probably be the words and tune that stick, in the long run anyway.

I always find myself turning to Sydney Carter when this comes up. "You change a word, you bend a note; did it work or didn't it? What you put down, in the end is nothing but a variant...There is nothing final in the songs I write...I would like them to keep on growing, like a tree. They have a form, I hope; so does a tree. But it is not fixed and final."

That doesn't mean anything goes - but the reason for resisting changes should be because they damage the song, not because they aren't quite what the person who made the song first put down.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 10:37 PM

Who is in The Dubliners these days?

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: BobKnight
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:26 AM

As the original poster, and a songwriter myself, I am well aware of the changes that take place over the months or years. That happens with me singing my own songs too, but the changes I am referring to are more than that.

Here are the lyrics I originally downloaded off the internet:- Green Fields Of France How do you do, young Willie McBride, Do you mind if I sit here, by your grave side And rest for a while in the warm summer sun, I've been walking all day and I'm nearly done I see by your grave stone your were only nineteen, When you joined the great fallen in 1915 I hope you died well and I hope you died clean, Or Willie McBride was it slow and obscene Chorus: Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly Did they sound the dead march as they lowered you down Did the band play the last post and Chorus Did the pipes play "The Flowers of the Forest." Did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind, In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined Although you died back in 1915, In some faithful heart are you forever nineteen Or are you a stranger without even a name, Enclosed there forever behind a glass pane In an old photograph torn, battered and stained, Fading to yellow in a brown leather frame Chorus Willie McBride I can't help wonder why, Did all those that died there, know why they died Did they believe when they answered the call, Did they really believe that the war would end war For the sorrow, the suffering, the glory the pain, The killing and dying were all done in vain For Willie McBride, it all happened again, And again and again, and again and again Chorus The sun now it shines on the green fields of France, There's warm summer's breeze makes the red poppies dance The trenches are vanished, long under the plow, There's no gas, there's no barbed wire, no guns firing now But here in this graveyard, it's still no man's land, A thousand white crosses, in mute witness stand To man's blind indifference to his fellow man, And a whole generation butchered and damned Chorus

And here are the lyrics I took from Eric Bogle's Youtube video. I'm not saying they are perfect, but if you compare both side by side, I think you'll be amazed at the amendments and sheer invention. No Man's Land How do you do, Private William McBride, Do you mind if I sit here, down by your grave side And I'll rest for a while in the warm summer sun, I've been walking all day Lord, and I'm nearly done I see by your grave stone your were only nineteen, When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916 Well I hope you died well and I hope you died clean, Or Willie McBride was it slow and obscene Chorus: Did they beat the drum slowly, did they sound the fife lowly Did the rifles fire o'er ye as they lowered you down Did the bugles sing the last post and Chorus Did the pipes play "The Flooers of the Forest." And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind, In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined And though you died back in 1916, To that loyal heart are you always nineteen Or are you a stranger without even a name, Forever enshrined behind some glass pane In an old photograph torn, and tattered and stained, And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame Chorus Well the sun's shining now on these green fields of France, The warm wind blows gently and the red poppies dance The trenches have vanished, long under the plow, No gas, and no barbed wire, no guns firing now But here in this graveyard, it's still no man's land, The countless white crosses, in mute witness stand To man's blind indifference to his fellow man, And a whole generation who were butchered and damned Chorus And I can't help but wonder now Willie McBride, Do all those who lie here, know why they died Did you really believe when they told you the cause, Did they really believe that the war would end war For the suffering, the sorrow, the glory the shame, The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain For Willie McBride, it all happened again, And again and again, and again and again Chorus

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:01 AM

An example of what I consider an effective antiwar poem is The Soldier Poet by Miltos Sahtouris. It's written in Greek, but several translations are available on the internet, one here
.

It was made into a very beautiful song by Giannis Spanos, but I don't think it's available on the internet, and the original album is probably out of print.


Jon Corelis
The sweet nightingale: A Cornish song

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:25 AM

I'm not affected, because it tells me nothing. I'm not even sure what it's saying except that war is noisy, scary, and frustrating. So's a ride on the NYC subway. Trust me.

Here's what I think of as a true and affecting war poem. It's well known. There are others; this one just popped into my head first:

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/vergissmeinnicht/

And I hope we're all familiar with "Dulce et Decorum Est."

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: breezy
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 02:45 PM

Having heard Eric sing his song I must add that the only other recorded version that has done justice to it is June Tabor's rendition on Anthology. If you have never heard it then you are unqualified to pass judgement on it. better still , if you dont have a copy at hand stay schtum.

I cant help but think that the Fureys pounced on the song to get 'in on the act' and subsequently rushed and hurried and dis-respected the finer points of the lyric of the song.

I will never forgive them for murdering and foisting it upon a world wide audience who nevertheless appreciate the song .

And all because the word 'Green' is present in the lyric and in a version of the title.

Eric is probably most grateful for the benefits the song has bestowed on him , but I wouldnt mind betting that part of him wishes it had been a better rehearsed effort.

He had recorded an earlier song entitled 'For King and for Country'

If one cant stay true to the original then sometimes it is best left alone.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: breezy
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 03:08 PM

Eric wrote in verse 4        

''Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause'? ''


This line on its own can maybe explain even more and hold greater significance for some who would wish to hijack a song.

just a thought

        


  
        


Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 03:10 PM

Bob Knight's comparison goes to the heart of the matter. No one is ever satisfied with what they wrote. The true artist is his own harshest critic, and there's always a better way of saying what you wanted to say. Even if your thinking hasn't changed a bit in the meantime.

Since if it's worth anything at all, a song is (at least partly) a message- conveying an idea- the effectiveness of the song lies in how well the idea is conveyed, not how well the actual word sequence is preserved.

So listeners almost inevitably change the words to match their interpretation of the idea. It's this that drives the folk process- mutations are seldom random and sometimes totally beneficial. So don't get too uptight about changing the words, if the sense is maintained.

On the other hand, pure garblings by professionals illustrate the premium these often place on presentation and slickness over content. And the fact that these garbled versions often get the greatest circulation shows that their strategy pays.

Music doesn't always benefit from "an injection of quality", unless quality has a wider meaning than being in tune and playing the right chords.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 05:49 PM

> ''Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause'? ''

A trick question, sadly. If yes, he's a sheep. If no, he's either a sheep or unprincipled or didn't have the guts to go to prison.

There's also an assumption that whatever "Cause" "they" told him about   was obviously a lie, and that now, being dead, he'd see it that way. Are we sure?

It's easy to get dead people to agree with us in poems. It happens in "Willie McBride's Reply" as well (also in "Flanders Fields"), just from a different point of view.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:23 PM

The traditional versions of the popular ballad "Johnnie Cock" (Child 114, better known today as "Johnny O'Breadiesley") that I've seen have various endings: the poacher, Johnnie, having killed or wounded those sent to stop him, is himself wounded or killed, or after having to fight swears not to fight or hunt again, or in at least one version, is pardoned by the king. The versions I've heard by Ewan MacColl on his anthologies (don't have them at hand to listen to now so I'm quoting from memory) end with the unharmed and unrepentant poacher proudly boasting that he will keep hunting all he wants to. I don't know if there is actually a traditional version with this ending, but I suspect MacColl made it up himself for political impact: triumph of the working class hero against the upper class landowner.

Incidentally, I've always assumed this ballad was the distant ancestor of the 1958 Johnny Cash hit "Don't take your guns to town," though I have no way of proving it. It's at least plausible, I think, that whoever wrote the song (I don't know if it was Johnny Cash himself) was adapting an American folk ballad which was a variant or descendent of Child 114.

Jon Corelis
Jon Corelis: Poems, Plays, Songs, and Essays

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:38 PM

I wonder what version of "Flowers of the Forest" Bogle had in mind. The pipe version has a completely different feel to the song - it's a rather uninteresting march tune. The pipes can't play anything like the original. My guess is that Bogle was imagining something that could never exist, the pipes playing it with the expression and modal flexibility of a singer.

I detest the plodding verbosity of Bogle's songs. Brian McNeill is just as bad.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Jon Corelis
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 09:50 PM

The best war story I know was one told by an old American WWI veteran (long since deceased, of course) with whom I had some connection, and who had been through some of the worst battles of the war. The story, in its entirety, was: "At Argonne, the captain said 'Charge!', and I stepped behind a tree."

Jon Corelis
Windows of Air: Songs by Jon Corelis

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:17 PM

MacColl's "Johnny o' Breadislie" came from John Strachan of Fyvie (1875-1958).

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM

I've listened again to the version on "By Request" and watched the live version on utube, and I am convinced that Eric sings:

"Did the bugles sing the last post in chorus."

Rog

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:31 AM

I'd agree with Rog - that's the way I always do it, apart from singing in my native accent.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 06:02 AM

I wonder what version of "Flowers of the Forest" Bogle had in mind.
I am sure he was familiar with the pipe lament often played at miltary burials and remembrance.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:10 AM

Since there are more than one bugle, "in chorus" has the virtue of making sense.

"And chorus" doesn't.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Cathie
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:33 PM

I'll never understand folk. Starting a few years ago from the viewpoint that I learnt a song with correct tune, phrasing and words, I've heard accolades of 'he made it his own' , 'liked his version' etc. and so became less anxious if I didn't rigidly follow the music score. Regarding the thread topic, I heard and learnt the Fureys version long before I had heard of Eric Bogle (gasp) and very rarely sing it and only in specific folk clubs. It doesn't offend my ear any more to hear an unfamiliar version of a song I know. I heard the Eric Bogle version once but it was so mumbled, or my hearing so impaired, that I couldn't follow the words anyway. I'll never understand folk.

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 10:00 PM

Do you mean "I'll never understand folk music" or "I'll never understand people"?

Either way, I shouldn't worry about it. Follow your bliss!

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: pavane
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:55 PM

June Tabor's version was always the definitive one for me - great singing and the right words. I cringe whenever I hear someone sing the Fureys' vesrion

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:22 AM

"I cringe whenever I hear someone sing the Fureys' vesrion" I suppose people are used to the lyric they hear first. Like you I much prefer the Bogle lyrics which I heard before the various Irish bands versions. It is also a much better lyric though. For example the original "The countless white crosses in mute witness stand" is far superior IMHO to the Fureys singing "the countless white crosses stand mute in the sand"

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Brakn
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:59 AM

Different words, different chords, different tune, different tempo; perhaps it would be better if we only performed our own songs!

;-)

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: Marje
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:23 AM

The folk process can being about improvements but in the case of a carefully crafted modern song, it's unlikely.

For instance, I've heard "Irish" versions (possibly the Fureys?) that replace "The trenches have vanished, long under the plough" with something about "the sun shining brightly from under the clouds" or similar. This makes little sense (how did the sun get under the clouds?) and loses the reference to the lost trenches. It's not a deliberate change, it's a lazy forgetting-and-reworking of the words that has been equally lazily copied by others.

On the other hand, there's one change in the "internet" version quoted above that I think is for the better. The line in verse two: "Forever enshrined behind some glass pane" is replaced by "Enclosed there forever behind a glass pane." I think this is better because the word "enshrined" is already in that verse a few lines above, and it avoids that repetition.

I suppose what I'm saying is that as long as people think about what they're singing, and make deliberate, informed choices, the result is likely to be pretty good. What is not so good is lazy and thoughtless churning out of words that don't make sense, or which lose some of the subtleties of the orignal version.

Marje

Subject: RE: No Man's Land - Check The Lyrics
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:51 AM

This makes little sense (how did the sun get under the clouds?)

A low / rising or setting sun will often shine from under the clouds.