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BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Stringsinger 24 Oct 12 - 02:41 PM
Stringsinger 24 Oct 12 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,999 24 Oct 12 - 07:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Oct 12 - 08:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 03:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 03:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Oct 12 - 05:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 05:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Oct 12 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Lighter 25 Oct 12 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Lighter 25 Oct 12 - 10:55 AM
bobad 25 Oct 12 - 11:05 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 12 - 12:00 PM
Stringsinger 25 Oct 12 - 12:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 01:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Lighter 25 Oct 12 - 02:42 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 12 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 03:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Oct 12 - 04:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 12 - 05:01 PM
bobad 25 Oct 12 - 05:05 PM
bobad 25 Oct 12 - 05:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Oct 12 - 05:36 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 12 - 02:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 12 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 12 - 03:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 12 - 03:31 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Oct 12 - 03:46 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 12 - 04:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 12 - 04:36 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Oct 12 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 12 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 12 - 07:16 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Oct 12 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 12 - 07:41 AM
bobad 26 Oct 12 - 07:55 AM
Stringsinger 26 Oct 12 - 12:37 PM
beardedbruce 26 Oct 12 - 12:46 PM
Little Hawk 26 Oct 12 - 01:26 PM
GUEST 26 Oct 12 - 01:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 12 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Lighter 26 Oct 12 - 04:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 12 - 11:34 PM
Stringsinger 27 Oct 12 - 10:29 AM
Stringsinger 27 Oct 12 - 10:37 AM
Stringsinger 27 Oct 12 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Lighter 27 Oct 12 - 04:14 PM
bobad 27 Oct 12 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Lighter 27 Oct 12 - 07:45 PM
Stringsinger 28 Oct 12 - 01:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Oct 12 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,CS 29 Oct 12 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 12 - 01:23 PM
bobad 29 Oct 12 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 12 - 03:37 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Oct 12 - 07:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Oct 12 - 07:42 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 12 - 04:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Oct 12 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 12 - 08:14 AM
Stringsinger 30 Oct 12 - 12:27 PM
beardedbruce 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Lighter 31 Oct 12 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 12 - 01:04 PM
beardedbruce 01 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM
beardedbruce 01 Nov 12 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM
Greg F. 01 Nov 12 - 02:11 PM
beardedbruce 01 Nov 12 - 03:19 PM
beardedbruce 01 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM
Stringsinger 01 Nov 12 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM
Stringsinger 01 Nov 12 - 03:52 PM
Greg F. 01 Nov 12 - 05:11 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 12 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Lighter 02 Nov 12 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 12 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Lighter 02 Nov 12 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 12 - 10:55 AM
bobad 02 Nov 12 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Lighter 02 Nov 12 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 12 - 01:16 PM
beardedbruce 02 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM
Greg F. 02 Nov 12 - 02:07 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Nov 12 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 12 - 03:33 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM
bobad 03 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Lighter 03 Nov 12 - 05:07 PM
Stringsinger 04 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Nov 12 - 01:25 PM
Greg F. 04 Nov 12 - 02:57 PM
bobad 05 Nov 12 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Lighter 05 Nov 12 - 08:48 AM
Greg F. 05 Nov 12 - 09:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM
Stringsinger 05 Nov 12 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 12 - 10:45 AM
Stringsinger 05 Nov 12 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Lighter 05 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 12 - 05:44 PM
Greg F. 06 Nov 12 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 12 - 09:18 AM
Stringsinger 06 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 12 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Greetings from Israel 06 Nov 12 - 03:50 PM
Stringsinger 06 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM
Stringsinger 06 Nov 12 - 03:56 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 12 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Greetings from Israel 06 Nov 12 - 04:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 12 - 04:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 12 - 02:47 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 12 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 12 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 12 - 08:21 AM
Stringsinger 07 Nov 12 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 Nov 12 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 12 - 10:50 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Nov 12 - 11:44 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Nov 12 - 11:46 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Nov 12 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Nov 12 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Nov 12 - 03:28 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM
Stringsinger 09 Nov 12 - 08:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Nov 12 - 08:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Nov 12 - 06:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Nov 12 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 12 - 08:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Nov 12 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 12 - 10:09 AM
bobad 10 Nov 12 - 10:37 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Nov 12 - 11:08 AM
Stringsinger 10 Nov 12 - 11:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Nov 12 - 12:44 PM
Stringsinger 11 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM
Stringsinger 11 Nov 12 - 10:28 AM
Stringsinger 11 Nov 12 - 12:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 12 - 05:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Nov 12 - 05:34 AM
bobad 12 Nov 12 - 08:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Nov 12 - 11:12 AM
bobad 12 Nov 12 - 11:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Nov 12 - 12:34 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 12 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 02:52 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 12 - 05:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 12 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 07:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 08:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Nov 12 - 09:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Nov 12 - 09:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 12 - 09:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 09:57 AM
Greg F. 13 Nov 12 - 10:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM
Stringsinger 13 Nov 12 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 12 - 10:55 AM
bobad 13 Nov 12 - 11:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 12 - 12:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 12 - 02:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 12 - 01:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 12 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 12 - 04:53 AM
Stringsinger 14 Nov 12 - 10:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Nov 12 - 12:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Nov 12 - 12:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Nov 12 - 01:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 12 - 03:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 12 - 03:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Nov 12 - 08:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 12 - 01:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 12 - 02:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Nov 12 - 05:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 12 - 07:52 AM
beardedbruce 15 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 12 - 10:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM
Greg F. 15 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM
bobad 15 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM
bobad 15 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 12 - 06:50 PM
bobad 15 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 12 - 07:41 PM
bobad 15 Nov 12 - 07:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM
bobad 15 Nov 12 - 08:19 PM
freda underhill 15 Nov 12 - 08:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 12 - 06:46 AM
bobad 16 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 12 - 07:31 AM
bobad 16 Nov 12 - 07:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 12 - 10:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 12 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,keith A 16 Nov 12 - 06:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM
freda underhill 16 Nov 12 - 09:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 12 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 12 - 03:34 AM
Stringsinger 17 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 12 - 05:59 AM
bobad 17 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 12 - 08:44 AM
bobad 17 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM
Stringsinger 17 Nov 12 - 10:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 12 - 01:33 PM
Ed T 17 Nov 12 - 02:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 12 - 02:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 12 - 02:36 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Nov 12 - 03:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Nov 12 - 03:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Nov 12 - 03:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 12 - 04:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Nov 12 - 05:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM
bobad 17 Nov 12 - 06:07 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 12 - 07:37 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Nov 12 - 07:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 12 - 08:13 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 12 - 08:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Nov 12 - 08:52 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 12 - 02:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 12 - 04:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Nov 12 - 05:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 12 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 12 - 07:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 12 - 07:57 AM
bobad 18 Nov 12 - 08:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 12 - 10:22 AM
Stringsinger 18 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 12 - 01:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 12 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 12 - 02:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 12 - 06:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Nov 12 - 01:49 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 12 - 06:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Nov 12 - 09:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Nov 12 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Nov 12 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 12 - 11:12 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 12 - 11:17 AM
bobad 19 Nov 12 - 11:21 AM
beardedbruce 19 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Nov 12 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,UN watcher 19 Nov 12 - 03:25 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Nov 12 - 05:34 PM
Stringsinger 19 Nov 12 - 06:05 PM
bobad 19 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 12 - 03:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 12 - 03:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 12 - 04:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 04:18 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Nov 12 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,Ifor 20 Nov 12 - 04:41 AM
Jack Campin 20 Nov 12 - 06:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Nov 12 - 06:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Nov 12 - 06:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Nov 12 - 07:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 07:49 AM
beardedbruce 20 Nov 12 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,UN watcher 20 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM
bobad 20 Nov 12 - 09:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 12 - 10:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Nov 12 - 03:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 12 - 03:42 PM
beardedbruce 20 Nov 12 - 05:20 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Nov 12 - 12:43 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 12 - 12:04 PM
beardedbruce 21 Nov 12 - 12:18 PM
beardedbruce 21 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Nov 12 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Nov 12 - 02:18 PM
Stringsinger 21 Nov 12 - 02:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 12 - 03:35 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Nov 12 - 03:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Nov 12 - 05:22 PM
bobad 21 Nov 12 - 06:14 PM
bobad 21 Nov 12 - 06:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Nov 12 - 01:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 12 - 02:13 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 12 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 12 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 12 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 12 - 05:44 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Nov 12 - 06:55 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM
bobad 22 Nov 12 - 07:20 AM
bobad 22 Nov 12 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 12 - 09:38 AM
Stringsinger 22 Nov 12 - 10:42 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Nov 12 - 10:51 AM
bobad 22 Nov 12 - 11:07 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 12 - 12:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Nov 12 - 04:06 PM
Stringsinger 22 Nov 12 - 05:22 PM
Stringsinger 22 Nov 12 - 05:39 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Nov 12 - 05:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 12 - 01:49 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Nov 12 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 12 - 03:18 AM
Richard Bridge 23 Nov 12 - 04:31 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Nov 12 - 01:57 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Nov 12 - 02:06 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Nov 12 - 03:00 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Nov 12 - 04:00 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Nov 12 - 04:29 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Nov 12 - 04:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Nov 12 - 06:42 PM
bobad 23 Nov 12 - 06:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 12 - 02:38 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 12 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 12 - 04:41 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 12 - 06:03 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 12 - 06:11 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 12 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 12 - 06:24 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 12 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 12 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 12 - 06:35 AM
Stringsinger 24 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM
Stringsinger 24 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM
Stringsinger 24 Nov 12 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 12 - 10:08 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 12 - 11:46 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 12 - 12:16 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Nov 12 - 12:22 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 12 - 12:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 12 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 12 - 03:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 12 - 05:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Nov 12 - 05:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 12 - 04:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 12 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 12 - 05:04 AM
Stringsinger 25 Nov 12 - 10:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 12 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Nov 12 - 03:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 12 - 04:01 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 12 - 04:26 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 12 - 04:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Nov 12 - 07:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Nov 12 - 07:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 12 - 07:49 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 12 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 12 - 09:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 12 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Nov 12 - 10:30 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 12 - 04:36 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 12 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 12 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Nov 12 - 05:52 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Nov 12 - 06:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 12 - 06:33 AM
bobad 27 Nov 12 - 07:33 AM
freda underhill 27 Nov 12 - 08:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Nov 12 - 11:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Nov 12 - 12:09 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 12 - 12:21 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Nov 12 - 12:33 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 12 - 01:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Nov 12 - 07:23 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 12 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 12 - 11:05 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 12 - 11:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Nov 12 - 12:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Nov 12 - 12:43 PM
Stringsinger 30 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Nov 12 - 04:35 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Dec 12 - 02:43 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Dec 12 - 01:50 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Dec 12 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,CS 02 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Dec 12 - 05:33 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 12:04 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 02:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Dec 12 - 02:38 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Dec 12 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Dec 12 - 04:39 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 05:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 05:04 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 05:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 05:18 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,999 03 Dec 12 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Dec 12 - 05:26 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Dec 12 - 05:35 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 06:06 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Dec 12 - 06:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 06:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 06:25 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 06:35 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 06:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Dec 12 - 07:02 AM
beardedbruce 03 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 12 - 10:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 06:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 12 - 06:11 PM
Stringsinger 03 Dec 12 - 07:51 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 12 - 01:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 04:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 04:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 04:54 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 12 - 05:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Dec 12 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Dec 12 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Dec 12 - 08:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Dec 12 - 08:12 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 12 - 08:24 AM
beardedbruce 04 Dec 12 - 08:37 AM
Greg F. 04 Dec 12 - 09:42 AM
beardedbruce 04 Dec 12 - 09:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Dec 12 - 10:31 AM
Greg F. 04 Dec 12 - 10:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 10:39 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM
beardedbruce 04 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 12 - 05:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Dec 12 - 01:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Dec 12 - 02:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Dec 12 - 03:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Dec 12 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Dec 12 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Dec 12 - 05:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Dec 12 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Dec 12 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Dec 12 - 12:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Dec 12 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Dec 12 - 01:13 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Dec 12 - 02:26 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Dec 12 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM
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Subject: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 02:41 PM

Former Israeli general and ambassador to China wants to recreate the Nazi camp
experience in Gaza.



Holocaust in Gaza


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:06 PM

My guess is that no one on Mudcat will touch this with a proverbial ten foot pole.
It's grim but needs to be addressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:44 PM

You guess wrong. I deal with it by making my views known to the Israeli government. I do not need you to be my conscience. And you're right, I won't deal with the issue on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:00 PM

What Bruce said!

Starting another slanging match on this forum achieves nothing other than giving the usual suspects more encouragement than they deserve, and giving their views much more respect than they deserve.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:02 AM

"Hollocaust"
"Shoah"

Why use such emotionally charged words?
They are words that tell of genocide, millions of deaths, and untold misery.

Did one person starve in Gaza?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:14 AM

"In an interview with the Israeli army spokesman, Mathilde Redmatn, deputy director of the Red Cross in Gaza, clearly declared for all those willing to listen that there "is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza."

"If you go to the supermarket, there are products. There are restaurants and a nice beach," noted Redmatn."

"Even Hamas has admitted that there is no Israeli-created starvation in Gaza.

"There is no starvation in Gaza. No one has died of hunger," Khalil Hamada, a senior official at Gaza's Ministry of Justice, told London's Daily Telegraph last year."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:38 AM

OP "Former Israeli general and ambassador to China wants to recreate the Nazi camp
experience in Gaza."
For those who need reminding what the real Nazi camp experience was.
http://www.nuspel.org/holocaust.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:22 AM

You can't say we didn't warn you String.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:24 AM

Do you think use of those words appropriate and proportionate Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:35 AM

See string.

Usual suspect number 1, and Israel's greatest fan, as usual, spoiling for a fight.

I'm out of this...permanently.
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:53 AM

If Cook's story that the Israelis are trying to starve refugees into submission, there should be clearly independent verification of it.

Is there any? I didn't see any last night.

All I find are a reference to the number of food-carrying trucks going into Gaza daily, and to the fact that at some point the Israelis calculated the average number of calories required per person in Gaza. The figure is about the same as the number assumed for Americans by the U.S. government.

A Nazi-like policy of starvation or malnutrition would be an earth-shaking story that would be almost impossible to cover up.

For that reason it would be extremely stupid as well as criminal. It could not possibly benefit Israeli security. Yet no major news organization seems to be reporting it.

Questions: For how long have the food shipments been (allegedly) inadequate? If it's been true for months, it can't be legitimately explained. But if it's only been a few days (with minimal impact), it probably can be. And who says that Vilnai's comments have anything to do with what's actually happening? (He's not in charge of anything.) Why haven't others who favor the alleged policy spoken out similarly? Where's the outrage from liberal Israelis, including those who got the "Red Line" documents declassified in the first place?

So far it doesn't add up.

And the phrase "usual suspects" cuts two ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:55 AM

I'm reminded of Carl Sagan's remark that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 11:05 AM

I see Hamas is doing all it can to ensure that sanctions aren't lifted.

Hamas rocket attacks blast southern Israel
By Josef Federman, The Associated Press October 25, 2012 8:09 AM

Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip fired dozens of rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel on Wednesday in the heaviest bombardment on the area in months, drawing ominous Israeli threats of retaliation and dangers of escalation.

The violence came a day after a landmark visit to Gaza by the emir of Qatar. Israeli officials suggested the visit, the first by a head of state to the Hamas-ruled territory, emboldened the militant group.

The rocket fire began shortly after the emir left Gaza late Tuesday and continued through the night. Israeli officials said more than 80 projectiles were fired, and Hamas claimed responsibility for many of the attacks.

Israel responded with a series of airstrikes on rocket launchers, killing two Palestinian militants, according to Gaza medical officials. Two other Palestinians were killed Tuesday.

Three Thai labourers working on an Israeli farm were wounded, two seriously, when a rocket hit a chicken coop. Other rockets badly damaged five houses and broke car windows. Schools in the area were closed.

Many people spent the day indoors, while others stayed near makeshift cement shelters found in the streets of southern Israeli towns. In one farming community, shrapnel covered trees and a children's playhouse in a backyard.

A video issued by Hamas' military wing showed six rockets peeling off in rapid succession, then later, from what appears to be a different location, eight rockets shoot off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 12:00 PM

"there should be clearly independent verification of it."
Old news - it was reported in the Times a couple of weeks ago
Jim Carroll

http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-starvation-diet-gaza/11810
http://www.juancole.com/2012/10/creepy-israeli-planning-for-palestinian-food-insecurity-in-gaza-revealed.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19975211
http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/israels-solution-for-gaza-a-starvation-diet/
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/israels-starvation-diet-formula-in-gaza-and-the-expansion-of-the-dahiya-doctrine.html
http://palestinianpundit.blogspot.ie/2012/10/the-starvation-diet-for-gaza-shows.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 12:04 PM

To use the Yiddish vernacular to your comment about starving Palestinians, I say to that,
"drek and more drek". Of course they starve.

As to not wanting to discuss it on Mudcat, 999, you are hiding an important issue
under an Israeli rock.

Guest Lighter, there are a lot of earth shaking news events that are being covered up, particularly if you rely on conventional main stream media for your information.
You are entitled to challenge my source of information but I must reciprocate and ask where do you get your information that constitutes denial?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 01:54 PM

This is supposed to have happened years ago, but still no-one has starved.
To equate the Gaza situation with the Nazi holocaust is to deny the horror of the holocaust.
Holocaust denial.
Remove those words and this story lacks impact:-

Beastly Israelis deliver enough food to Gaza, but no more.
And just because Gaza declared war. and keeps trying to murder ordinary Israelis with indiscriminate rocket fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 02:04 PM

OP link.
"Six and a half years go, shortly after Hamas won the Palestinian national elections and took charge of Gaza, a senior Israeli official described Israel's planned response. "The idea," he said, "is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."

Six and a half years later not one has.
Compare that with the idea behind the Nazi holocaust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 02:42 PM

Keith A: It's hardly "Holocaust denial." If untrue, it would be "Holocaust exploitation."

Stringsinger: Once revealed, the self-destructive idiocy of such an alleged policy would instantly turn Israel into a pariah without having enhanced its security one bit. And how is it possible that an operative plan to effectively starve 1.5 million refugees hasn't been picked up by the Big Media? Why haven't Arab governments issued authoritative statements? Why hasn't the issue been referred to the UN?

Well, maybe these things will happen. Maybe they won't.

My brand of common sense says that such a story - easily confirmable by journalists as well as by the UN and other international agencies - could not be covered up for long. But so far we have only one journalist's word for it. Hardly "extraordinary evidence for an extraordinary claim."

Consider: the misleading evidence that Saddam Hussein had WMDs was certainly stronger than what Cook provides. In the case of Iraq there was defector testimony, satellite surveillance, intercepted communications, Hussein's prolonged resistance to UN inspection, and a conceivable motive. But still there were no WMDs. For Gaza, all we have are a few statistics, a quote that may or may not mean much, and an implicit faith in the writer's interpretation.

If Cook's story is authoritatively confirmed, I'll gladly retract my idle suspicions and be as outraged as anyone here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 02:51 PM

Perhaps we should establish a sliding scale of atrocities aganist non-combatants and award penalty points - 1 for humiliation at a checkpoint; 2 for building a wall through people's land and cutting of their means of livelihood, 3 for tearing down people's homes, 4 for using chemical weapons in built up areas... up to the massacre of thousands of refugees
This latest atrocity is aimed at civilians and is comparable to taking hostages and starving a people into submission - a war crime in anyone' (with a shread of decency) book.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:10 PM

Starving into submission is usually considered a legitimate tactic in war.
The allies practised it against the Nazis.
Israel is not practising that.
It is delivering food so there is no starvation, even though Gaza continues to wage war against them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 04:39 PM

"Shoah" in Hebrew mean "calamity". So does "Nakba" in Arabic, the word used for the mass expulsion of Palestinians which accompanied the estabishment of Israel.

Perhaps it might be better to use the word in English. That way no one could dispute that it is an accurate and appropriate word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:01 PM

Was there a name for the greater mass expulsion of Jews which accompanied the establishment of Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:05 PM

Your statement may be interpreted that you are drawing an equivalency between the Holocaust and the Palestinian refugee situation following the Arab-Israeli War - I hope that is not your intent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:07 PM

My post is directed at McGofH's post of 4:39.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:36 PM

Measuring such things and balancing them against each other is to reduce human calamity to a matter of accountancy and bookkeeping.

Essentially it's the same kind of arithmetical game that Holocaust deniers play when they suggest that somehow if they can manipulate the figures so that if the numbers killed in the death camps was lower tha has been claimed that would somehow reduce the crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 02:43 AM

I wonder to what lengths the Israelis have to go before they raise one squeak of criticism from their apologists
We've had the massacre of refugees, constant humiliation on a daily basis, chemical weapons that maim men, women and children alike, attacks on hospitals and schools, heavy artillery used on the civilian population, the use of non combatants as human shields, mass evictions, the destruction of homes, ghettoisation, the expulsion of whole ethnic groups onto toxic rubbish dumps, partition of land in order to prevent civilians from feeding their families or making in a living, the murder of aid workers, an ongoing blockade to starve and humiliate a whole people into submission by denying them the essentials of living and human dignity..... not a single tear, crocodile or otherwise and certainly not a breath of criticism (perish the thought!).
These are civilian people being deliberately targeted daily on a long term and massive basis by a major power with nuclear capability.
The only thing separating this behaviour from similar crimes against humanity in the past is the scale of the operation - early days yet.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 02:59 AM

All worthy topics for discussion Jim, and raked up yet again by you because the subject of this thread does nothing to demonize Israel.

McGrath, there were many mass displacements of people in the 20th Century, not least in Europe, and all at least comparable to those associated with Israel.
To argue that the unique horrors of the extermination camps was just another calamity among many is not just an arithmetical game of accountancy and bookkeeping, it is to deny the event.

And, to describe the zero fatality partial blockade of Gaza as another Shoah and Holocaust is grotesque.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 03:07 AM

"All worthy topics for discussion Jim"
All discussed and defended by you and your apologist cronies.
This discussion on past discussions is finished
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 03:31 AM

So why start it Jim?
(Twat)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 03:46 AM

'I wonder to what lengths the Israelis have to go before they raise one squeak of criticism from their apologists'
.,,.,
Jim, you know that I have more than squeaked, but have risked alienating myself from my nearest & dearest by my criticisms of the iniquities of that dreadful regime, which in no way resembles what I spent so much of my youth trying to establish. You know also that we have been before over your injudicious use of terms like 'holocaust', which you persisted in despite its being pointed out to you how offensive this was, not just to Israel, but to the entire worldwide Jewish demographic; which was the occasion of some accusations on my part, which you much resented at the time & which you know I now regret. You recently expressed a wish for a rapprochement between us, to which I wholeheartedly agreed.

So I am most saddened to find you still concurring in the employment of these preternaturally offensive terms. It is not your points I question, but the ill-judgment of the vocabulary in which you and others are couching them here.

Please let us not revert to our regrettable hostile mode of address to one another. A little restraint in the terms in which you put your points would, I think, be desirable.

Best regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 04:30 AM

"preternaturally offensive terms"
One again - how far does Israel have to go?
You have the subjects of human righs abuses - are you prepared to justify the undisputed facts
Human rights crimes are not up for debate Keith - they are crimes against humanity
The article in this morning's Irish Times will no doubt be of comfort
to some here, but will set many million corpses spinning in their graves (where they have graves).
Jim Carroll

POLITICAL MERGER STUNS ISRAEL AHEAD OF GENERAL ELECTION
Mark Weiss
In a political bombshell that shook up the Israeli election campaign, prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu announced last night that his ruling Likud party would fight the election on a joint list with the far-right Yisrael Beiteinu party, headed by controversial foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman.
Israel's Channel 2 reported that a secret clause in the merger deal allows Mr Lieberman to replace Mr Netanyahu as prime minister in the fourth year of the next term, assuming the new party forms the government – both parties denied that report.
The dramatic merger decision was made after secret negotiations between the two men. Senior officials in both parties were kept in the dark.
The united list is almost certain to be the biggest party by far in the next Knesset parliament following the January 22nd election, and ensure a third term as prime minister for Mr Netanyahu.
Announcing the decision at a joint news conference last night, Mr Netanyahu said unity would bring the country stability.
"The union between the Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu will allow us to protect Israel in the face of security threats and the power to make economic changes within the country."
Most Likud ministers welcomed the deal, but not all.
One minister, Michael Eitan, said the union should be rejected. "If it happens, this agreement will eliminate the Likud and be a threat to Israeli democracy."
The new party will be called Likud Beiteinu (Likud Our Home). Mr Netanyahu will head the list. Mr Lieberman will take the number two slot, and will probably be able to choose any portfolio.
The first 42 places on the list will be divided up according to the current Knesset representation – 27 for the Likud and 15 for Yisrael Beiteinu – but internal polls conducted ahead of the merger showed the new party had the potential to win an unprecedented 50 seats in the 120-seat Knesset.
There has been much speculation over recent weeks of a joint centre-left alliance emerging, but, despite last night's bombshell, such a development looks unlikely. The leaders of the main left and centre parties have failed to agree on who should head such a list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 04:36 AM

Human rights crimes are not up for debate Keith - they are crimes against humanity

Yes, and I am aginst them!
We all are Jim.
(twat)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 05:37 AM

Jim: You are a free agent, and entitled to express yourself in what words you will. But I cannot but wonder why you choose to do so in terms which you know are gratuitously offensive to many people who are beyond the parameters of those [the Israeli government and its adherents] whom you are, probably rightly, denouncing. What good does it do you to insult so many people who are not part of the offence you are attacking? Do you not consider that it might be counter-productively alienatory to many who would otherwise agree with you?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 06:49 AM

"are gratuitously offensive to many people "
I find the defence of behaviour I have just outlined "gratuitously offensive" and an affront to humanity.
If you have differences with my opinions, please state them instead of demanding that I wrap them up in cotton wool for the benefit of appeasers and hypocrites.
Do you really not know how volatile the situation has become and how likely it is to end in international conflict?
Please don't try to instruct me on the use of weasel words, I have enough examples to draw upon on this forum should I feel the need.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 07:16 AM

Stringsinger,
starving Palestinians, I say to that,
"drek and more drek". Of course they starve.


No.
They do not.
Not one.
You are entitled to challenge my source of information but I must reciprocate and ask where do you get your information that constitutes denial?

Your source of information states in the first sentence that there was no intention to cause starvation.

Mathilde Redmatn, deputy director of the Red Cross in Gaza, clearly declared for all those willing to listen that there "is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza."

"If you go to the supermarket, there are products. There are restaurants and a nice beach," noted Redmatn."

"There is no starvation in Gaza. No one has died of hunger," Khalil Hamada, a senior official at Gaza's Ministry of Justice

Danish reporter, June 2010
"Judging from the media, the situation in Gaza is desperate, everything is about to collapse, and the community is on the brink or at the level of a third world country.

Yesterday I drove into the Gaza Strip...

This time, I had expected to see real suffering, because with all the fuss in recent days about bringing tons of humanitarian relief in - so much that people actually sacrificed their lives for it - there certainly had to really be a deep, desperate situation in the Gaza Strip. No food. Long queues in front of UN food stocks. Hungry children with food bowls.

But this was not the picture that greeted me.

I will not say whether, in better times has been a larger product range than there was yesterday. But there was certainly no shortage of vegetables, fruits or any other ordinary, basic foods.
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/06/dutch_report_no_food_crisis_in.html

And, This Week In Palestine, October 2012
http://www.thisweekinpalestine.com/details.php?id=1726&ed=115


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 07:38 AM

Have it your way, Jim. You are a big boy. I just think, as a friend, that a bit of thought might lead you to better recollections. But I am not holding my breath.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 07:41 AM

Some more to ignore in the war agaist civilians
Jim Carroll

http://blog.amnestyusa.org/middle-east/gaza-blockade-still-operational-still-violating-human-rights/
http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Gaza%20Health%20Report%20FINAL-LR.pdf
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza
http://imeu.net/news/article0019136.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 07:55 AM

Some more to ignore in the war against civilians:

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABRE89N09U20121024


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 12:37 PM

Bullshit, Keith. What do you think a "shoah" is? Bibi wants to put the Palestinians on a diet.
Only his diet reflects starvation since they've cut back on the amount of trucks carrying food that they will allow into Gaza. How on earth do you know that there's no starvation there?

Keith, she also said, ""Despite the easing of the closure and the partial lifting of export bans in the wake of the flotilla incident, continued restrictions on the movement of people and difficulties in importing building materials hampered sustainable economic recovery and dashed any hope of leading a normal and dignified life," the Red Cross official was quoted as saying.

If this isn't a humanitarian crisis, then what is? I suspect Mathilde as being a puppet for Israeli propaganda. When you try to subjugate and control a whole population of people because you want to punish them, this in my view is a humanitarian crisis despite the Potempkin of super markets or whatever she was allowed to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 12:46 PM

So, Stringsinger, what is the equivalent food value of 80+ missiles?

THAT cannot be blamed on the Israelis- the Gazan's chose to import them rather than food- so I would not think them to be starving.

Oh, that's right- Jews, Arab Israelis and Thai workers are not really human, so it is OK to try to kill them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 01:26 PM

I agree with you fully on this, Stringsinger, but I have long since decided there's not much use discussing it on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 01:45 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/world/meast/israel-calorie-count-gaza/index.html

This account notes, as Cook's carefully does not, that the situation he describes was "eased in 2010."

It all happened several years ago, and there've been no reports of starvation (much less indications that Gaza will be "uninhabitable by 2020"). So the story seems to boil down to the fact that the Israeli government calculated an average calorie requirement for the Palestinians that is essentially the same as what the U.S. government calculates for its own citizens. It may or may not have implemented that calculation, but Cook's story implies it would have been a crime to do so, a "starvation diet." In fact it would not.

The restrictions on food shipments seem to have been symbolic.

Unlike the "Shoah."

Cook concludes that "It does not need an expert to conclude that" the cutbacks would "entail widespread malnutrition." But why didn't he consult an expert? Because the expert might contradict him?

Had there been malnutrition in Gaza over a period of years, wouldn't we have heard about it?

Have we? Has the Palestinian Authority called on the UN for action? Did CNN report what would have been a vastly bigger story than what we have here?

Think about it. An Israeli policy that was apparently intended (despite a symbolic cutback in deliveries) to provide as many daily calories for the Palestinians as Americans are supposed to get, is enthusiastically equated to the extermination of 6,000,000 Jews by the Nazis.

And that astonishing comparison is accepted as fact.

Like I say, think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 02:35 PM

There is malnutrition in Gaza as in most countries.
Its cause is poverty not lack of food (Kazam rockets about $500 each).

So 6 plus years ago Israel determined that there should be no starvation in Gaza, and were as good as their word.
(We DO know there is no starvation. Gaza is well reported on, has numerous UN agencies and international aid agencies. You will find no report of starvation.)

I can think of no other example in the whole world of such magnanimity to a sworn enemy, never mind one constantly launching illegal, indiscriminate weapons at civilians.
Thank you Stringsinger for drawing our attention to it.
One small cheer for Israel I think..


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 04:58 PM

1:45 PM was me.

> I can think of no other example in the whole world of such magnanimity to a sworn enemy...

The Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of Japan come to mind. Of course, at that point Germany and Japan were no longer our sworn enemies. But in the event of Palestinian takeover of Israel, how many would expect even vaguely magnanimous treatment for the defeated Israelis?


>...never mind one constantly launching illegal, indiscriminate weapons at civilians.

Except for the word "constantly," an indisputable fact.

And launched because the elected Palestinian National Authority is too weak, short-sighted, and feud-oriented to stop it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 11:34 PM

Thanks Lighter.
I am off for a week.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 10:29 AM

Oh c'mon Bruce. That's not reasonable. You think all Palestinians want to destroy Israel? They are the victims of apartheid and are being punished because they voted the wrong way. You are ignoring the Israeli "Cast Lead" which decimated much of Palestine.

Keith, I suspect that your source of information is tainted by Israeli propaganda.
What UN agencies and international agencies are you presenting as proof?

The lady Mathilde from the Red Cross is obviously deluded.

Israel is not as magnanimous as you say since it oppresses the Palestinian
population through check points, harassment and a non-transparent
attempt to starve the people of Gaza.

Thank you for showing us that Israel is a bully and a tyrant who has brain-washed many with their propaganda including the nonsense that you are presenting.
BTW not all Israeli citizens agree with what their government it doing,
as is the case in the U.S. There are courageous Israeli citizens such as Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom who are reported on in Ha'aretz, a more liberal paper than AIPAC
who is completely brain-washed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 10:37 AM

"Had there been malnutrition in Gaza over a period of years, wouldn't we have heard about it? "

Some of us who are enlightened on the subject have heard about it for years.
The defense of Israel by the U.S. would prevent relevant information from coming out.

Obama and Romney both would not allow any truth about the Israeli situation to surface because it would undermine their credibility.

It is a fact that the source of farming, olive trees, and other food resources that the Palestinians have had for their survival have been systematically destroyed by the Israeli government and that has been know about for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 02:52 PM

Keith, you are a great advertisement for BDS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 04:14 PM

You seem to be saying, String, that the U.S. government and news media are in the iron grip of Israel and its stooges. And the media and governments of other Western nations as well. How could this have this happened?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claiming personal enlightenment is no evidence.

Not to change the subject, but why is it that the Palestinians and their Arab and Islamic governmental partisans refuse even to grant that the nation of Israel has a right to exist? Particularly when over 150 members of the UN not only recognize Israel's legitimacy but carry on reciprocal diplomatic relations with it? Is there any other nation on earth whose declared enemies repeatedly urge its annihilation? (Which brings me back to the question of how much magnanimity any conquerors of Israel might be expected to show to the defeated.) Proclaiming that Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation would be a giant step toward resuming negotiations. Why won't the Palestinians and their friends take it?

Among the 150 sovereign nations that recognize Israel's existence are Russia, China, Vietnam, South Africa, Egypt, and Jordan. Have they all been brainwashed? Or are they in cynical collusion with the "Great Satan"?

Assertions of Israeli evil (not to mention genoicide) that emanate solely from pro-Palestinian sources require the kind of extraordinary independent confirmation that Carl Sagan was talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 05:51 PM

Speaking of enlightenment this review of three books written by people who have observed human atrocities in the Middle East first hand paints a slightly different picture than that fed to it's useful idiots by Palestinian propagandists.

While Canadian leftists attempt to "break the siege" of Gaza there's a whole world of people out there fighting for freedom against the very likes of Hamas writes Terry Glavin

Read and reflect: On the front lines of a global struggle


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 07:45 PM

Inquiring minds want to know:

1. Is the Hamas mentality really the liberal democratic conscience of the world? If your answer is "yes," explain why you think so.

2. If it had its druthers, how would Hamas treat the Jews of a militarily "liberated Palestine"? If your answer is "fairly and considerately," explain why you think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 01:33 PM

Guest Lighter, the thing is that this is a grossly misinterpreted statement. I think what is being said is that the government of Israel has to change from oppressive means to a more humanitarian one.

Fortunately or unfortunately, Hamas was democratically elected and this is why Israel is punishing the Palestinians.

I'm not convinced that Hamas would treat Jews the same way. At the beginning of the Ottoman Empire, Jews were accepted, albeit taxed for their views but considered citizens.
Historically this has some precedence. They were more tolerant than was Christianity, historically, that persecuted Jews and destroyed their synagogues and temples by razing them and placing Christian churches on top of them. Evidence of this can be found in Budapest, Hungary.

The rise of Hamas is a reaction against the Israeli government's paranoia,one of the few countries that possess a large nuclear arsenal aside from the U.S. Being afraid of an armed Iran is part of that paranoia. Israel has the capacity to blow Iran hundreds if not thousands times over with their weaponry.

The rationale is that Hamas is lobbing rockets at Israel. The only way this could stop is that Israel could honor a legitimate peace process by eliminating its incursion into the establishment of settler's housing, displacing Palestinian land.

The only way a peace process is possible is if Israel were a good actor and returned its borders to the way it was in 1967 and to stop the new housing.

Netanyahu refuses to do this and thus putting Israel into perpetual conflict with the Palestinians, which he and other Israelis will not honor as a country but instead refers to them as "arabs".


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:23 AM

This must be about the fifth incarnation of "The Keith and Jim Show", and it's all been said over aand over.

Never mind talk the "Hind Leg off a Donkey". These two could easily talk the arse off an elephant.

And nothing will ever change the hard line, closed mind, attitude of either.

They are each exactly like those whose cause they espouse, because they will never stop fighting long enough to even think about a possible solution.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:42 AM

"This must be about the fifth incarnation of "The Keith and Jim Show", and it's all been said over aand over."

Normally I might agree with you Don, but you picked an odd time to make that point for as you may observe, neither party has posted to this thread for three days ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 01:23 PM

"This must be about the fifth incarnation of "The Keith and Jim Show"
I think if you check, at no time have I posted directly to Keith on this thread - all my postings, other than those to MtheGM have been general ones aimed at nobody in particular.
Keith is, as you rightly point out, "Usual suspect number 1, and Israel's greatest fan, as usual, spoiling for a fight."
Unless I, and others who oppose the causes like people like Keith espouse (Muslims, Israel, Travellers et al) are allowed to post opposing views we might as well leave the forum to him.
I seem to remember you have been known to have something to say on his postings in the past.
Don't make problems where they don't exist.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 02:45 PM

The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews

"...the swallowing up of both the Israeli and Palestinian peace camps by political polarization has accelerated the closing of the progressive mind. And static fatalism has allowed the assailant of synagogue congregants and the killer of young children to fill the vacuum."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 03:37 PM

"Is the Hamas mentality"
This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread - the attempts by the Israelis to all-but starve the Palestinians into submission with its blockade, which is aimed at the Palestinian people as a whole - described, rightly in my opinion, as an act of humanity aimed directly at non-combatants.
Whatever soldiers do to soldiers at the behest of politicians is a separate argument altogether; this is little short of using civilians as human shields.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:38 PM

"Normally I might agree with you Don, but you picked an odd time to make that point for as you may observe, neither party has posted to this thread for three days ;)"

You may not have noticed CS, but I decided NOT to become involved in this, and I gave the reason, which has turned out exactly as I predicted.

My posting at this time is pure chance, as I only waded through the mire earlier today, and was more concerned with the sheer preponderance of their posts than with their having taken a weekend off. I'm sure they'll be in full flood again shortly.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:42 PM

And your weak rationale, Jim, is disingenuous. Your posts may not be directly to Keith, but they still are calculated to reach him, knowing how he will react.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 04:07 AM

My posts are calculated to reach anybody reading this thread, as are every other posters here.
You seem to be attempting to turn this into a shit-stirring exercise. If you have anything to say about what I have written - feel free...., otherwise, stop trying to nause up this thread with personal attacks.
I would point out that so far on this thread the only posts that are not relevant to the subject in hand are yours -
"Usual suspect number 1, and Israel's greatest fan, as usual, spoiling for a fight" -
and
"Your posts may not be directly to Keith, but they still are calculated to reach him, knowing how he will react."
Lay off
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 07:00 AM

You don't control this thread Jim, so wind your neck in and stop giving orders.

You know damn well you and Keith have hashed, re-hashed and mashed this subject many times, so what makes you think this one will be any more productive than all the others closed, in the end, by mods?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 08:14 AM

"You don't control this thread Jim, so wind your neck in and stop giving orders."
Am not giving orders; am trying to prevent you from doing what you are accusing me of doing - wrecking this thread with personal attacks.
You obviously are determined to turn this into a slanging match - I am doing nothing here - as CS has already pointed out, I hadn't even posted for four days when you decided to start this.
Maybe you should go back to bed and re-start your day later when you are in a better mood
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 12:27 PM

The slinging match is already a problem which could lead to a new world war.
Israeli government has overstepped its bounds and with the future persecution of the Palestinians, there will be world wide blowback.

As to the Keith and Jim show, this is a valid subject to be contested.
Naturally, I'm on Jim's side, here.

Again, a support for the BDS (boycott, disinvestment and sanctions) is in order.

One apartheid is one too many.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM

Stringsinger,

"The only way a peace process is possible is if Israel were a good actor and returned its borders to the way it was in 1967 and to stop the new housing."


Why not the borders as defined in the 1920's, when the Mandate Authority ( Great Brutain) decided that Jews and Arabs could not live together, and gave 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory to the Arabs, prohibiting all Jewish settlement there, and leaving the remaining 23% to be the Jewish Homeland (where Arabs were allowed to settle)?

Why is 1967 such a sacred date for the borders????????? Because that would put us back to when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem, and prohibited Jewish access to the holy sites? How does that compare with the situation SINCE 1967, where Arabs not only have access to their sites, but control access themselves?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 11:19 AM

Recognize Israel's right to exist, declare a new era and an open peace process, and an inextricable moral burden will be on Israel. It would have to negotiate or look to the U.S. and the world like a real enemy of peace and the Palestinians.

Seems obvious enough to me. Why wasn't it done long ago? What have the Palestinians to lose?

It hasn't been done because the Palestinian leadership has enslaved itself to hatred, pride, jingoism, revenge fantasies, and fear of their most radical colleagues and citizens.

Hamas has never given an indication of magnanimity to anybody. When Germany took back the Polish Corridor, motivated like Hamas by revenge and the elimination of a sovereign neighbor, it put Poles and Polish Jews into real, not pretend, starvation camps. Why should the Israelis expect better from Hamas?

Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 01:04 PM

"....the Palestinian leadership has enslaved itself to hatred, pride, jingoism, revenge fantasies, and fear of their most radical colleagues and citizens"
Tweak this list of accusations a little and all these can be levelled equally at Israel - none of which can be use as an excuse for the atrocities carried out against non combatants, including the one under discussion - holding the Palestinians hostage and attempting to force a settlement with humiliation and a blockade which has brought impoverishment up to the point of starvation.
The politics of the conflict can never be a reason for atrocities committed again civilians and the fact that these atrocities are carried out and have become common practice by Israel, makes it a terrorist state, not to be trusted.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM

Still waiting on the answers to my post of 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 12:28 PM

By the way, the 1920's division of Mandate Palestine was the LAST set of borders that the Arabs agreed to. So it seems to me that any calls for going back to previous borders should use those, rather than the truce lines in effect in 1967 before the Arab attack on Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM

"Still waiting on the answers to my post of 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM ..."
Still waiting for an explanation as to why any of this has anything to do with holding a whole civilian population hostage and attempting to starve and humiliate them into submission.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 02:11 PM

Ah jeez, Jim, don't confront B Bruce with logic or fact - he's always had a hard time dealing with them & in his current state - - - - who knows?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:19 PM

GregF,

The fact is that you are a lying racist.



YOU have stated that the statement

"is Black and a Democrat."

was the same thing to you as

"was a Dumb Ni--er"


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM

Jim,


WHo is holding a whole civilian population hostage? The people who randomly bombard them with rockets instead of feeding their own children( according to you [re starving])?

Since I do not agree with your premise that Israel is starving anyone, I see no need to answer a meaningless question.

Now, WHY is there an insistence on the 1967 borders, rather than the last one that the ARABS accepted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:36 PM

BB in the 1920's the policy toward Palestinians was entirely different. It was cooperative and if you've ever heard of the business of exporting Joffa oranges, you would know this.

By the time '67 rolled around, Zionism had taken a different turn and has become a bully as of today. Systematically, the Palestinians over the years were exploited and then marginalized and finally oppressed.

There is no excuse for Israel to renounce its democracy and allow a theocracy (which is what it is now) to survive.

Hamas is more of a reaction to oppression than a viable theocratic organization. This nonsense about wanting to "wipe Israel off the map" is a propagandistic meme which Ahmadinijad never said. The intent was to criticize Zionism and that's the target,
not the nation of Israel.

There are those in Israel today who renounce the saber rattling of Netanyahu, Lieberman
and the other war mongers and have formed a peace coalition to protest this policy.
I refer you to organization Gush Shalom and Ari Avnery, an outspoken critic.

Remember BB, also in 1920, Israel was not yet a nation and wouldn't become one until 1948.

You can't have peace without the relinquishing of military solutions which Israel has been unwilling to do under Netanyahu and his cohorts.

Unfortunately, Mittsolini and Obama both are supporting him. Bad news for any peace process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM

"The people who randomly bombard them with rockets instead of feeding their own children"
If you are suggesting that the people who are suffering as a result of the blockade, the military incursions, the chemical weapons, the Shatila and Sabra massacres, et al are all responsible for "bombard them with rockets instead of feeding their own children", then we must assume that the whole of the Israeli population is responsible for the above named atrocities - is that what you are suggesting?
Personally, I couldn't give a toss for the political agendas of the various political groups, but I believe that to make any concessions to the Israelis as you are suggesting is to give in to human rights abusers who are waging war on civilians to the extent of committing war crimes.
War aimed at Palestinian civilians is not the same as war against Hamas and to suggest it is has been the excuse of every monster carrying out every atrocity in history.
You are defending crimes against humanity - nothing less.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:52 PM

The idea that the Palestinians prefer rockets over feeding and caring for their children is insulting and specious, to say the least.

Nothing that the Palestinians have done equal that of "Operation Cast Lead".

Rachel Corrie will become a martyr of history as she was murdered by an Israeli tractor for attempting to save Palestinian homes from being bulldozed.

Bibi is a theocrat and his donning of the traditional "kippah" is a good example of hypocrisy. This is not a man of peace but power and war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:11 PM

Hey, Beardie, ya ever think of buying a parrott? African Grey's do a real good job with human speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 03:38 AM

"The idea that the Palestinians prefer rockets over feeding and caring for their children......"
This is a diversionary tactic by a defender of atrocities, to move the discussion away from the subject in hand - the taking and ill-treatment of hostages (in this case, the Palestinian people) - to Israeli expansionism.
Installing a blockade to deprive the people of Gaza of the essentials of life and livelihood and then calculating how far the hostage-takers can go before they threaten the lives of people (we are talking about human beings, men, women and children of all ages, most of them struggling to live already) is obscene and has echoes of recent history that should send shivers down the spines of anybody who is aware of that history.
I suggest that if Bruce wishes to discuss the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, then he opens a new thread - this is about human rights abuses.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 09:21 AM

Wouldn't recognition of Israel's right to exist be the first step to improving things?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 09:47 AM

"Wouldn't recognition of Israel's right to exist be the first step to improving things?"
Just as would be recognising the Palestinians right to live in peace without the blockade, evictions, massacres, military incursions, daily humiliation, the 'Berlin' type wall....
The politics of the situation has to be resolved, but this no way touches upon the human rights and crimes against humanity that is a commonplace nowadays.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 10:02 AM

Somebody has to take the first step.

Since the Palestinians can do so, and it would clearly be to their great advantage politically, that's what they should do.

They've had 64 years to think it over, and they they still haven't. I don't understand why not. Had they recognized Israel's right to exist any time up to the 1967 war, the situation today would be radically different. (That is far short of full diplomatic recognition, by the way.)

Unlike a change in Israeli policy, recognition of Israel's right to exist would seem to entail no risk to the decision-makers whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 10:55 AM

You're playing the blame game - the situation in Palestine has been a case of six of one - half dozen of the other from the setting up of the State of Israel.
By 'the Palestinians' I assume you mean the various Palestinian leaders down the years - or do you, you don't make this clear.
In effect, your attitude appears to be that the whole of Palestine is to blame for the present situation.
Are you equally prepared to blame 'the whole of Israel' for the undeniable atrocities that have taken place - you've had the list?   
Blaming the whole population of one side or the other doesn't begin to approach a solution.
I suggest you look up the number of casualties in this conflict and also the number of civilians who have been killed, on both side, and compare them - that gives a clear picture of who is the most lethally aggressive.
A good start would be to lift the blockade and stop attempting to starve the Palestinian PEOPLE into submission - who knows, that might start winning a few hearts and minds.
"They've had 64 years to think it over"
Both sides have had the same amount of time to 'think it over' and neither have shown willing - stop taking sides, especially as we are talking about human rights abuses which border on war crimes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 10:59 AM

"Unlike a change in Israeli policy, recognition of Israel's right to exist would seem to entail no risk to the decision-makers whatsoever."

Except that their sponsor, Iran, would not allow it unless they themselves change their policy toward Israel and this won't happen until there is a change of the current theocracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 11:28 AM

Bobad has it right, but of course it isn't just the Iranians.

And Jim, it isn't a question of "taking sides." The Palestinian leadership has not uttered the words (uttered by 150 other nations) that Israel has the right to exist. If that has no effect, and Israel refuses to negotiate in good faith, it becomes a pariah. It's a simple step. Why not do it?

As for the minority of UN members who don't recognize Israel, they include some of the most theocratic, least democratic, most repressive governments on earth. Among them are Palestine's "friends," Arabs and Iranians, who will not lift a finger to facilitate negotiations, and who generally won't even utter the word "Israel." Those facts alone suggest to me which sources are more likely to be reliable and which are mostly propaganda.

As for Israel, being surrounded by *declared enemies* who keep promising to destroy you, one of whom is building an atom bomb that could do it (while also boasting that their own martyrdom is the best thing that could happen) isn't conducive to trust or friendship.

The picture you paint is one of oppression and intransigence by Israel. It urgently requires a remedy. OK, pull the rug out from under them.

Say they have the right to exist and take it from there. The Palestinians have nothing to lose but their chains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 01:16 PM

"Say they have the right to exist and take it from there. The Palestinians have nothing to lose but their chains."
Why start there?
I suggest you take a look at the Israeli track record from the setting up of the State, and as I suggested - count the casualties, particularly the non-combatants
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM

GregF,

Bobert may support your racist lies by his not holding you to the standards he holds sane people to, but perhaps you could go back to the home and let grownups discuss things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 02:07 PM

Delenda est Carthago, Beardie; Delenda est Carthago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 02:36 PM

"the Israeli track record from the setting up of the State"
.,,.,.
How about the track record of the new State's neighbours from that precise time, Jim ~~ the concerted attacks across every border by 5 hostile armies intent on "driving Israel into the sea"? -- a determination which ASFAIK has been subsequently repudiated by only one of them, Jordan; but remains official government policy of all the others, with the possible exception of Egypt, who keep blowing hot & cold over the question. I am tired of reminding you that I hold no brief for the state that has emerged from that period, which has been a grave disappointment to me after all my well-meant youthful efforts to bring it into being. But your insensitive and lopsided view of the matter remains a disgrace to your intellect, and to your much vaunted love for justice.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 03:33 PM

I certainly agree that there was armed opposition to the setting up of the State of Israel - lack of consultation of the British ex-colonials had much to do with that, but I don't recall reading of Palestinians throwing grenades into occupied houses to clear the way for the new settlements, within hearing range of the rapidly departing Brits.
No excuse of course - the killing of non-combatants (or attempting to starve them into submission) is, as far as I'm concerned, never justifiable.
Personally I have no love for any state dominated, or even influenced by religion - damn them all.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

I will certainly concur with that last point, Jim: but Israel is a far more secular state than any of its Muslim neighbours, as you will freely admit if you will just overthink your entrenched position for a moment. Israel has had the misfortune of being coalition-dependent on its religious parties for most of its existence; but it has never rivalled in religiosity the likes of the charming Saudi with its Sharia law. When was a woman buried up to the neck in Israel & had her head smashed in by rocks because she shagged the wrong man? What Israeli rabbi has ever had the power of an Ayatollah? I say again, Jim: your bias on this particular matter is a disgrace to your intellect. And I suspect you are so shrill about it because you know in your heart that that is the case.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 03 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM

From Al Jazeera:

"The leader of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has criticised the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas for comments he made to Israeli media, saying that they contradict long-held Palestinian territorial demands.

Abbas made the rare if symbolic concession to Israel on Thursday, saying he had no permanent claim on the town from which he was driven as a child during the 1948 war of the Jewish state's founding.

Ismail Haniyeh said on Friday that Abbas' remarks on the right of return for Palestinian refugees, aired on Israel's Channel 2, were "extremely dangerous".

In his comments, Abbas said: "Palestine now for me is [19]67 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital ... This is now and forever, this is Palestine for me.

I am a refugee but living in Ramallah. I believe that West Bank and Gaza is Palestine. The rest is Israel."

The president said that while he would like to see his birthplace - Safed, now a town in northern Israel - he does not want to live there.

"I want to see Safed. It is my right to see it but not to live there," he said.

Statehood

The remarks came ahead of a UN bid that would see Palestinians gain partial statehood recognition in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The comments appear to have been meant to mollify Israel that Palestinians did not lay claim to lands taken for Israel in 1948, nor seek to run them over demographically.

Palestinians hope the vote will force Israel to withdraw from its current positions to lines it held before the 1967 war or face international legal action.

Israel says negotiations alone will fix borders between it and any future Palestine.

But Abbas' comments backfired among some of his people as he touched on one of the most sensitive issues at the heart of Israel-Palestinian conflict: the fate of refugees who fled, or were forced to flee their homes, in the fighting surrounding Israel's creation in 1948.

They and their descendants now number more than five million.

'Never give up'

Gaza's Hamas movement, alongside many other Palestinians, said Abbas' remarks suggested millions of refugees and their descendants would not return to the places they fled in wars with Israel.

"It is not possible for any person, regardless of who he is, a person, a president, government, or authority, to give up on Palestinian land or to give up the right of return to our homes that we were forced out from," Haniyeh said.

Palestinians who spoke to AP Television on Friday also agreed that no refugee will give up on their homeland.

"Anyone who was forced out of his land in [19]48 will never give up his land," Hisham Farraj, who lives in the Al-Jalazon refugee camp, said.

The refugee issue has been a big obstacle in peace talks. Israel says their entry would be demographic suicide and expects refugees to be taken in by a future Palestinian state."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Nov 12 - 05:07 PM

A millimeter of conciliation from Abbas.

Otherwise, like I said.

And the response:

http://news.yahoo.com/israels-peres-welcomes-courageous-words-abbas-192602945.html

A millimeter from the other side.

Let's see what happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM

Over the years, Israel has renounced its secular views in the government. Too many rabbis have control as mullahs do in Islamic countries.

Ben Gurion was an atheist, for the most part.

Today, governmental officials are theocrats.

As to Israel's "right to exist", this is a canard by AIPAC propagandists.

This has never been a legitimate issue.

The question always remains, how is Israel's "right to exist" defined?
By the Likud? By the likes of Netanyahu?

You could make the same claim about America's "right to exist" by GOP radicals.
They keep talking about "taking the country back".


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 01:25 PM

No nation has it as part of its declared official policy to destroy America utterly so that it will cease to exist, Stringsinger; which is precisely the policy towards Israel explicitly espoused by almost all the countries surrounding Israel. What your GOP might rhetorically declare is purely a matter of internal political rhetoric, and no more to do with the case than the flowers that bloom in the spring tra-la. Your comparison has no referent whatever in reality, and is merely a foolish & mal-à-propos rhetorical trope of your own.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 02:57 PM

No nation has it as part of its declared official policy to destroy America utterly so that it will cease to exist....

Then why are we in Iraq & Afghanistan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:47 AM

Some positive movement?

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas seems to be coming around, from Israel's point of view. In a TV interview in Israel Abbas says he supports many Israeli positions about control of the land. And the Jewish State's efforts to control terrorism.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23470/Default.aspx?ref=newsletter-20121104


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:48 AM

I've seen some non sequiturs around here over the years, but that one's a doozy. I'd even call it cryptic.

Please state your point, Greg. And what does it have to do with a declared Arab policy of 64 years' standing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:30 AM

Same sort of delusion, hysteria, and ignorance in both cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

"Both cases" meaning both Arab and Coalition policies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 10:36 AM

MtheGM, what you are spouting is Israeli propaganda. The countries surrounding Israel are only interested in alleviating the oppression of Palestinians if they actually have said what you claim which I doubt. Most are reacting to the aggression of Zionism, not Israel's right to exist.

The idea that the GOP has nothing to do with Israeli policy is absurd. Many leading Republican representatives are active in AIPAC and other pro-Israel propaganda groups.

Of course there are some misguided Dems also including Obama who turn a blind eye
to the building of settlements, the appropriation of Palestinian lands and the numerous checkpoints outside Israel designed to intimidate and harass Palestinians.

Netanyahu has done an extensive job in brain-washing Americans on this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 10:45 AM

The countries surrounding Israel are only interested in alleviating the oppression of Palestinians if they actually have said what you claim which I doubt.

They did say that as they prepared to invade and destroy Israel in 68 and again when they invaded to destroy Israel in 73.

Are we shifting away from the no shoah, no hollocaust, no starvation subject?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 04:39 PM

.Yes, the thread is creeping. I need to see your sources, Keith. Who is this "they"
in '68 and '73? Israeli propagandist will go to the mat to defend their oppression of Palestinians. What may be at issue here is Zionism and theocracy, not the State of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM

So, String, are you suggesting that all American administrations, Republican and Democrat, since at least 1967 have been blinded by Israeli/Zionist propaganda?

And the governments of so many other nations as well?

How is that possible? And how did you learn to see through it?

Tell us more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 05:44 PM

Stringsinger, how can you have such strong opinions about something you know so little about.
Before you post, read up on the various invasions of Israel and the state of Gaza, and then you will be able to debate the issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:04 AM

Its no longer 1967 or 1973, in case you haven't noticed, this is 2012.

Try dealing with the here and now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 09:18 AM

I agree Greg.
We have done the history to death enough times, I am amazed you went back to it.
So, no "shoah", no holocaust, and no starvation in Gaza.
Why are we here at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM

Lighter, yes I think what you said is somewhat accurate except for the fact that not all countries agree about Israeli/American policy.

Keith, how do you know what I know or don't know? I have presented factual material whether it's found agreeable or not. You haven't presented any convincing evidence or factual material that gives your view credibility. I think I have done sufficient study on this subject and the fact that we disagree doesn't diminish my knowledge which is based not only on the Israeli propaganda output but by personal appraisals by people who have lived on kibbutz's, gone to Israel and Palestine. I trust their opinions more than someone who spouts propaganda. Also, I find Ha'aretz to be more reliable than many AIPAC sources of information. I am a supported of Gush Shalom and Uri Avnery who is no less of an Israeli patriot than the propagandists. Avnery was one-time a member of the Irgun and sat in the Knesset and knows what he's talking about.

There is a solution to this problem offered in his first book on the Mid-East, Noam Chomsky suggested at that time a one-state solution with a secular viewpoint allowing equal representation by Palestinian and Israeli governance. It probably should be Socialist/democratic of which is not now, but is theocratic.

Zionism is theocratic at its base in spite of the protestations to the contrary.
Palestinian Islam is also. The solution is to allow both and many other religions or non-religions to exist in Israel despite the rabbis and mullahs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 02:58 PM

I think I have done sufficient study on this subject and the fact that we disagree doesn't diminish my knowledge

It is not that we disagree, it is that you have to ask "who is this they" who invaded Israel in 67 and 73!
Jim disagrees with me totally but he would not ask me to educate him on such basics.
I have spouted no propaganda or even opinion. Just facts.
The fact that there is no starvation in Gaza was agreed by Mathilde Redmatn, deputy director of the Red Cross in Gaza, and by Khalil Hamada, a senior official at Gaza's Ministry of Justice, and posted by me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Greetings from Israel
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 03:50 PM

Israeli Aid and the Humanitarian Situation in Gaza

While Israel maintains an arms blockade of Gaza, it has maintained a steady and massive flow of humanitarian aid into the territory.

In the month of May 2011 alone, this totaled some 127,353 tons of goods.

That's over 150 pounds of aid per month – including food, clothing, and other supplies – for every single person in Gaza. Nearly 5,000 truckloads entered Gaza from Israel in May. In terms of food alone, this includes:

    376 truckloads of flour
    324 truckloads of wheat
    225 truckloads of fruit and vegetables
    142 truckloads of dairy products
    113 truckloads of meat and fish
    44 truckloads of milk powder and baby formula
    65 truckloads of rice
    59 truckloads of cooking oil
    492 truckloads of other food products

In the other direction, Israel granted permits to 3,612 Palestinians to enter Israel from Gaza in May 2011. Of these, 1,238 were for business purposes and 1,892 were for medical procedures (986 patients and 906 accompanying individuals).

On top of this, contrary to what many claim, Gaza in fact has been exporting goods to Europe. Since November of last year (the beginning of the season), this has included:

    368 tons of strawberries
    6.59 tons of cherry tomatoes
    6 tons of bell peppers
    9.7 million carnation flowers

Hamas has asserted that "there's no starvation in Gaza," and the Red Cross stated clearly: "There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza If you go to the supermarket, there are products." From our research, the myth of a humanitarian crisis is distracting the world from actual humanitarian disasters around the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

Keith, Jim might be informed about 67 and 73 but I don't need your education about the obvious propaganda that you spout. Mathilde Redmatn is not a credible witness in my book considering what has happened to the Red Cross in recent years. Your facts are suspect.

The Israeli attack on Syria, known as the six-day war was started by Israel and as a result, the PLO was formed as a reaction.   Israel had taken control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

The problem is that this war defined the borders surrounding Israel.

On November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 242, the "land for peace" formula, which called for Israeli withdrawal "from territories occupied" in 1967 and "the termination of all claims or states of belligerency." Resolution 242 recognized the right of "every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."


That's not what happened. Israel violated the Resolution 242 and today refuses to go back to the '67 border agreement.

Khalil Hamada of Hamas is not accurate and has his own propaganda. Much of the goods that Israel purports to send to Gaza never reach their destination. In such a scenario, starvation must exist. There are those who may not be with Hamas leadership and are not privy to food and supplies. It is not reasonable to assume that with the depredation of the Palestinian people in Gaza, hunger doesn't exist, particularly when Israeli officials declare a "shoah" on it and continue the blockade on goods and services.
What do you think they mean when Israel officials say they want to put Palestinians "on a diet"?

As for the Yom Kippur War, Israel rejected Sadat's peace initiative which triggered an attack because Israel declined to return to the 1967 borders. You could say that '73 was an outcome of '67 which has shown Israel to have expansionist policies.

There is a blackout on news referring to present day living conditions in Gaza. You can't trust what information the general media says about this because it is weighed heavily in favor of Israeli propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 03:56 PM

Keith, why do you think that the Mavi Marmara went to the trouble of making their trip?
And how did Israel treat this humanitarian voyage?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 04:20 PM

"So, no "shoah", no holocaust, and no starvation in Gaza."
The obscene proposal that one people should calculate another peoples' calorific intake in order to keep them alive while operating a blockade that is already affecting the health and well being of the Palestinian population, particularly its poorest sections, has echoes of past behaviour of despots and dictators - it is as old and as recent as the Gulags and Treblinka.
It certainly seems to be a seriously considered policy of the Israeli regime, and there is little doubt that is their intention to put it fully into practice.
"a senior Israeli official described Israel's planned response. "The idea," he said, "is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.""
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/israels-starvation-diet-formula-in-gaza-and-the-expansion-of-the-dahiya-doctrine.html
Should the Israeli authorities decide to refine their blockade on the basis of the required calorie intake of the Palestinian people, starvation is not only a possibility, but it is an inevitibility - shortages = rising prices = the poorer sections of the population doing without.
Amnesty has pointed out the hardships already being experienced by farmers whose land has been cut in half by the 'Berlin Wall'and who are unable to obtain farm equipment and so are unable to cultivate their produce either to feed their families or to sell. many of these people are already on the breadline, and any acceleration of that situation will bring them to the point of starvation (and there is no knowing where this will end now the Israeli leadership has decided to climb into bed with the ultra nationalists) - such stuff as are holocausts and shoahs made of.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Greetings from Israel
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 04:53 PM

"The Israeli attack on Syria, known as the six-day war was started by Israel and as a result, the PLO was formed as a reaction.   Israel had taken control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria."

The PLO was formed in 1964 with the aim of destroying Israel via terrorist acts which began well before the Six Day War.

Yes, in the Six Day War, Israel captured the Sinai and Gaza from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan and the Golan Heights from the butchers of Syria who have killed far more of their own people than Israel ever has in all its wars and battles.

From 1948 to 1967, when the West Bank and Gaza were in the hands of Jordan and Egypt, the Arab states had no interest or inclination in forming a Palestinian state in those areas. They kept promising they'd drive the Jews into the sea and reclaim all of Israel.

Egypt eventually made peace with Israel and took back the Sinai but DIDN'T WANT Gaza back.

Jordan eventually made peace with Israel but DIDN'T WANT the West Bank back.

And with that I join 999 and am getting out of here. There's no point arguing with the haters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 12 - 04:56 PM

So there is starvation in Gaza, but Hamas lies about it and the International Red Cross, the most respected international aid agency in the world, has not noticed it.
Nor has one single other agency, including all the various UN agencies and NGOs that operate there.
And, the entire world media, including Al Jazeera and other Arab news agencies and those of Scandinavia, Russia and China, all conceal it to assist Israel.

Or else, possibly, Stringsinger is a gullible dupe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 02:47 AM

Keith, why do you think that the Mavi Marmara went to the trouble of making their trip?
And how did Israel treat this humanitarian voyage?


Israel delivered the whole cargo to Gaza, where the Gazans left most of the junk uncollected for weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM

"International Red Cross, the most respected international aid agency in the world, has not noticed it."
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/report/palestine-report-260609.htm
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM

Thanks Jim.
In that whole report there is not even one suggestion, never mind mention of starvation because there is none.
No "shoah."
No holocaust
No starvation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 06:52 AM

Nobody has suggested that any of these thigs exist at present - the argument is that "any acceleration of that situation will bring them to the point of starvation (and there is no knowing where this will end now the Israeli leadership has decided to climb into bed with the ultra nationalists) -"
The collection of such information to be used against any population is obscene AND IT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE - NOTABLY AGAINST THE JEWISH PEOPLE
This conversation is now over
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 07:09 AM

Nobody has suggested that any of these thigs exist at present

Yes they have!
Stringsinger throughout this thread!

The blockade has been in place for years.
If lack of food became a problem, Israel would increase the supply.
That is what Vilnai said.
Such altruism to an implacable, deadly enemy determined to kill Israelis and destroy Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM

Zionist rhetoric bollocks


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

My word, Jim ~~ that must be about the shortest 'conversation over' on record. And what a convincing point you have come back after all of 1hr.4mins to make!

I am sure we are all most impressed by your cogency.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 08:21 AM

I'd crawl back behind your silence Mike - somebody might ask you exactly what your "reservations" of Israeli behaviour are - that would never do, would it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 10:11 AM

No reality
No real facts
No condemnation

Go BDS


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 10:49 AM

Meanwhile, the minor but real diplomatic progress reported over the weekend is ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 10:50 AM

No real facts?
Jim has just attested to the FACT that there is no starvation.
You were wrong to start this thread, and it was grotesque to use the words "shoah" and "holocaust" in this context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 11:44 AM

You know perfectly well what my reservations re Israeli behaviour are, Jim. I have told you a good dozen times and there is no point rehearsing them again here. They are, tho, quite sufficient to condemn Israel's present intransigence without many of the inaccurate animadversions, from you and others, about the specific situation in Gaza, which is one of the few points where Israeli behaviour does not deserve the condemnation it is receiving.

Even if it did, it would not make a silk purse of your sow's ear of a post at 1756!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 11:46 AM

0756 ~ sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 11:47 AM

... and the use of 'Zionist' as an unquestionably pejorative term is best avoided by those who do not wish to create an unfortunate impression as to their viewpoints.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 03:17 AM

No I don't know your reservations Mike - I can't recall one single criticism you have made of Israeli behaviour - plenty about those who have spoken out about their actions, but nothing tangible about expansionism, Berlin walls, chemical weapons, the blockade.....
How about telling us how you feel about calorie counting - that would be interesting.
Zionist - offensive - not when you consider who will make up the electoral coalition (something else you have yet to comment on)
The line between hardship and starvation is an extremely thin one for many families in Palestine at present. If the Israelis put their plans into operation that line will be crossed, It is only those who support the present sordid actions that would attempt to differentiate.
A few more atrocities to comment on (or ignore)
Jim Carroll
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 03:28 AM

All the hardships would go away if Gaza just called off the war.
It is hardly defencive; Israel pulled out years ago, evicting all its settlers and leaving intact valuable infrastructure and facilities which the Gazans then smashed to bits.

Why do they expect kindness from people they keep attacking.
If you furiously savage the hand trying to feed you, you will not eat as well as you might.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM

Jim ~~ You misremember. I have been over a dozen or more times on various threads the history of my acute disappointment with the state I had spent so much youthful energy in attempting to bring into being and forwarding its interest; of my saying to my nephew who was born there that I hadn't done all that to have innocent people's olive groves which were their livings uprooted purely from spite at not being able to get at true terrorist perpetrators; of said nephew asking how I knew it was true & my replying, because nobody had attempted to deny it and scarcely even to justify it; how even he, & his mother, my sister, now have reservations but nothing in comparison of mine, which now comprises hostility to the present state and all it stands for and is doing ~~

~~ if you don't recall all this, Jim, then your memory is at fault.

But, there you are, I have now said it all again in admittedly compressed form ~ but it really is all there in all those old exchanges between us on old threads if you can be arsed to look for it..

But I still think that the present situation in Gaza is one of the few where the Israelis might just have got it right and the Gazans not; which is where we came in...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Apologies - missed that one, though the destrucion of olive groves does somewhat pale into insignificance next to 2 major massacres of refugees, chemical weapons in built up areas, heavy artillery used against schools and hospitals, destruction of homes, daily humiliation of Palestinian population, blockade of essential goods for clothing, feeding and earning a living of non-combatants.... (if I have overlooked your have condemned any of these, please take my apologies as read).
Couldn't help but notice you chose not to comment on either the calorie count or the proposed coalition with the ultra-right, both of which fully justify my having made the historical comparisons that you have taken such offence over.
Please feel free to shove your "Jew-baiter" as far u as it will go.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM

I condemn them all ~~ the olive groves just happened to be the issue at the time, and I found it oddly symbolically unacceptable tho probably, as u say, not the worst abuse. But u do not admit any of the possible counter-points: like the huge thing you lot make of rejection by Israel of UN 242, when the whole thing started by the outright rejection in 1948 by 6 - or was it 7 - states in the region of the UN resolution that had estd the israel-arab partition, which the israel side quite prepared to accept...

One could go on with this argument for ever. U, not I have, intro'd this unfortunate twist in your last sentence. It's a cap u appear to have presented to yourself to wear if it fits. All I will asay on that score is that there appears a certain lack of balance in your attitude to the whole situation, it seems to me, while mine, allowing for unavoidable antecedence, seems to me more rational; more accepting of the situation as it is; and less agenda- & ideology-driven.

Still cannot reconcile self whatever to the loathsome thing Israel has become; but can at least perceive the provocations which might have brought this about, which you seem prepared to discount with a merry laugh...

Enuf...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM

I neither support, nor understand fully the politics of Israel/Palestine, nor have I ever commented on it to any great extent.
My disgust at what is happening there is centred on the effect that the politics is having on civilians.
If any misunderstanding of your position has been my fault I unreservedly apologise and don't understand what we are arguing about.
As you say - enuf
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM

2 major massacres of refugees, chemical weapons in built up areas, heavy artillery used against schools and hospitals, ...
Not wanting to join in the raking up of ancient history again, but for the record:

1. Israel has not massacred anyone.

2. What Jim calls "chemical weapons" are the standard smoke rounds used by every army in the world.

3. Israel would gain nothing by deliberately shelling a school or hospital, so they do not do it.

We have been over all this many times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:27 AM

1. B.S.
2. B.S.
3. B.S.

These are falsehoods, Keith.

1. "Cast Lead" was a massacre.
2. Chemical weapons may be used around the world but Israel has a larger
    arsenal of them. They do use them on Palestinians.
3. Israel has bombed hospitals and schools in other countries than their own,
    Syria for example, and neighboring Mid-East countries.

Keith, are you Jewish? You speak with such authority on this subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 08:48 AM

Cast Lead was the last Gaza incursion.
No rational, unprejudiced person would describe that as a massacre.
We debated it at the time.

Chemical weapons are not in use around the world.
Their use is illegal.
Israel has never used them, and there is no evidence they even have them.

Let us not make our race an issue Stringsinger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 06:51 AM

Jewish isn't a RACE! It's a RELIGION!

Palestinian is a race! Its religion is Islam.

When will this get through to those who insist on talking about a Jewish Race?

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 07:35 AM

So it is not racist to hate Jews?
Or, to believe my views are worth less (worthless?) if I were Jewish?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 08:57 AM

"Or, to believe my views are worth less (worthless?) if I were Jewish?"
Nobody has suggested any such thing and it is straightforward distortion so claim they have - the question was "Keith, are you Jewish? You speak with such authority on this subject" - a silly statement considering your 'knowledge' is based entirely on carefully suggested cut-'n-pastes, but certainly not a racist one.
As Don rightly points out JEWISH ISN'T A RACE, IT IS A RELIGION.
Jim Carroll

Incidentally
1. Israel has not massacred anyone.
.http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/

2. What Jim calls "chemical weapons" are the standard smoke rounds used by every army in the world.
http://sjlendman.blogspot.ie/2012/05/israels-nuclear-biological-and-chemical.html

3. Israel would gain nothing by deliberately shelling a school or hospital, so they do not do it.
http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Gaza_War_Legacy.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 09:50 AM

So there is no such thing a a secular Jewish State, and an atheist can not be a Jew.
MtheGM, you are not a Jew after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 10:09 AM

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/beingjewish.htm
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 10:37 AM

Jewish atheism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Jewish atheism refers to atheism as practiced by people who are ethnically, and to some extent culturally, Jewish. Because Jewishness encompasses ethnic as well as religious components, the term "Jewish atheism" does not necessarily imply a contradiction. Based on Jewish law's emphasis on matrilineal descent, even religiously conservative Orthodox Jewish authorities would accept an atheist born to a Jewish mother as fully Jewish.[1]"


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 11:08 AM

Not sure I am really, Keith. Genetically; but not by persuasion. Am an atheist who had Jewish parents but am fully baptised and confirmed member of the Anglican Communion. So where will I go when I die? Who cares!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 11:11 AM

Well I guess I would be accepted by Orthodox Jews. Matrinlineal descent. (Check)
Atheist. (Check) Actually I could qualify to be a citizen of Israel but I choose not to.

Here's the reason. Zionism is the culprit, and it's not anti-semitic to say so.

The reason I asked Keith his lineage with Judaism was to find out if he had a Zionist ax to grind.

There is a study being done by a Tel Aviv professor, I can't find his name, that Judaism is not a monolithic religion, that there are people over the world who are Jewish who can't communicate with one another on religious or cultural principles.


Zionism (from the biblical Zion) has deviated into a theocratic nationalism that threatens not just Palestinians but the whole world due to Netanyahu's warlike administration. The U.S. kowtows to Israeli policies for fear of being found anti-semitic and because of the munitions business the U.S. has with Israel.

The defense of Israel is mostly emotional and based on incoherent ideas surrounding misleading points. The evidence that the nation of Israel supports Netanyahu and his sanguinary foreign policies makes it a pariah on the world stage and the victim justification it has for survival is belied by its intimidation and oppression and yes, starvation diet of the Palestinian people.

Again, the solution is not a two state solution where one state turns the other into conditions of apartheid but a single secular state giving Palestinians and Israelis
equal representation and governance.

Because of the fanaticism of many Jewish and Muslim religionists, it will not happen.

What we are seeing is a theocratic war between Muslim and Jew being fueled by end-time Christians from the U.S.

Fortunately there are some enlightened people from the background of Judaism that see this clearly and don't support the "new Zionism".

They are: Norman Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky, Uri Avnery, Richard Goldstone and a peace organization in Israel, "Gush Shalom". There are many rabbis over the world who also condemn Zionism.

Keith apparently has been seduced by Israeli propaganda. If he were Jewish,
he might see things in a different light if he were able to experience what the Palestinian people have to endure. Many Jews who are honest know about what it is to experience persecution and as a result, don't want to punish others for it.
Others like Netanyahu are paranoid nationalists who find it powerful to use the victimhood status to fuel their saber rattling and power base.

Maybe Israel will be lucky and Netanyahu will be defeated in the next election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 12 - 12:44 PM

Keith apparently has been seduced by Israeli propaganda.
No.
I look at the propaganda from both sides, and look for supporting evidence.
You were fed the propaganda that Gazans are starving, and gullible dupe that you are you swallowed it whole, and started a thread about a Gazan holocaust.
There is nothing anywhere to suggest that Gazans are starving, and plenty of evidence that they are not.
Likewise the persecution of Palestinians.
There is plenty of evidence that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.

As you say, I have no Lefty or Zionist axe to grind.
My mind is open.
I will not swallow without question the propaganda of either side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM

No. There is plenty of evidence to show that Gazans are starving. Your evidence is Israeli or Zionist propaganda because they are very good at setting up a Potempkin village to mislead visitors.

You say there is no persecution of Palestinians which makes me believe that you have swallowed Israeli propaganda despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Palestinians in Israel are second class citizens in a Jewish autocracy theologically based.

What you say doesn't make sense in the light of what news is out there.

Netanyahu is a paranoid tyrant and should be replaced in January.

Jim is right. Cutting and pasting misleading information is not useful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 10:28 AM

There is nothing lucky about second class citizenship. Persecution by military force, checkpoints, the appropriation of Palestinian land, the expansion of settlements,
the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, the brutal treatment of the humanitarian aid offered
by the Mavi Marmara, and other mercy seacraft attests to the complete disregard for human rights by the Netanyahu administration.

Israel is in violation of human rights.

This is not to say that Hamas doesn't have its own ways of inflicting negative authority over its citizens but they were democratically elected and Israel has chosen to punish them for it.
The evidence remains that Israel is putting Palestinians on a human rights "diet". in order to Their paranoid government, instead of admitting that they are committing egregious human rights violations, have doubled down and defended their occupation convincing people like you that this is normal and right when its not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 12:27 PM

This seems like a thoughtful response to the problems.

Israeli rationale


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM

There is no starvation in Gaza.
Even Jim has told us that.
The whole world media reports from Gaza, including Al Jazeera and other Arab networks, Russia, China and Scandinavia.
None have reported starvation.
Numerous international aid and welfare organisations and NGOs are there.
None are involved in emergency feeding.
UN aid and welfare agencies are there.
None say there is starvation.
I have given quotes from Red Cross and Hamas both stating in terms that there is no starvation.
It is just propaganda Strinsinger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

The Independent 2009
a second Palestinian "Nakba", or catastrophe – this one at hands of the Arab governments. "Marginalised, deprived of basic political and economic rights, trapped in the camps, bereft of realistic prospects, heavily armed and standing atop multiple fault lines," a report by the International Crisis Group (ICG) in Lebanon recently observed, "the refugee population constitutes a time bomb."

The fact that the divided Palestinian political leadership is silent about the mistreatment of the refugees by Arab states does not make such behaviour any less reprehensible – or less dangerous. Some 250,000 Palestinians were chased out of Kuwait and other Gulf States to punish the Palestinian political leadership for supporting Saddam Hussein. Tens of thousands of Palestinian residents of Iraq were similarly dispossessed after the second Gulf war.

In 2001, Palestinians in Lebanon were stripped of the right to own property, or to pass on the property that they already owned to their children – and banned from working as doctors, lawyers, pharmacists or in 20 other professions. Even the Palestinian refugee community in Jordan, historically the most welcoming Arab state, has reason to feel insecure in the face of official threats to revoke their citizenship. The systematic refusal of Arab governments to grant basic human rights to Palestinians who are born and die in their countries – combined with periodic mass expulsions of entire Palestinian communities – recalls the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 05:39 PM

In a 2006 patriotism survey, 56% of Israeli Arabs were not proud of their citizenship and 73% were not ready to fight to defend the state, but 77% said that Israel was better than most other countries and 53% were proud of the country's welfare system. Eighty-two percent said they would rather be a citizen of Israel than of any other country in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 05:34 AM

UN World Food Programme helping Gaza by exporting its surplus food to West Bank Palestinians.
http://www.wfp.org/node/3465/4847/310191

and
"Biscuits From Gaza Feed West Bank Schoolkids
The nutritious datebars eaten by children at schools in the West Bank used to be shipped in from Egypt or even further afield. Now they are now being produced much closer to where they are needed: in Gaza. The result is that the local economy is being supported and kids in the West Bank are eating biscuits produced by fellow Palestinians. The first convoy of datebars recently made the crossing from Gaza."
http://www.wfp.org/node/3465/4847/226859


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 08:44 AM

Gaza militants launched 10 rockets into southern Israel by midday Monday, including one that struck the yard of a house, the military said. The barrage ramps up pressure on the Israeli government to stage a large-scale operation aimed at stopping the persistent attacks.

No injuries were reported and there was no immediate Israeli retaliation. But earlier in the day, Israeli aircraft struck three militant sites in Gaza.

According to the military's count, more than 110 rockets have hit Israel since Saturday.

The violence threatens to explode into a major confrontation ahead of Israel's Jan. 22 elections.

Israeli leaders have warned they won't tolerate continued assaults and have threatened a more forceful response.

"The world must understand that Israel will not sit idly in the face of attempts to attack us," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak has said Israel's upcoming elections will not deter Israel from acting militarily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:12 AM

"Jewish atheism refers to atheism as practiced by people who are ethnically, and to some extent culturally, Jewish. Because Jewishness encompasses ethnic as well as religious components, the term "Jewish atheism" does not necessarily imply a contradiction."

If you claim this special merger of nationality and religion for Jews, which applies to no other race/religion on the planet, how do you explain American Jews, European Jews, Russian Jews, and a host of other Jews who did not emigrate from Israel, and are not Israeli, while you conflate Israeli with Jewish.

Seems that you want to have your cake and eat it and given the settlements, the bulldozing of homes etc. it would seem you also want a slice of cake belonging to others.

Israelis would not accept being held to ransom by a foreign power controlling their borders and food supply, and taking over chunks of their land. Why do they expect the Palestinians to accept it?

Israel of course, is the one with nukes and monstrously superior firepower, so why are they surprised that the sovereign state held in thrall to their whims and mood changes, uses whatever pathetic means they possess to retaliate.

This thread, like so many others, is concentrated on the wrong question. It isn't the fact that Israel is starving Gazans, it is that they can, whenever they choose.

Which of you would live under that threat and NOT want to fight back?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 11:29 AM

".... they can, whenever they choose."

As can Hamas, whenever they choose, embrace peace with Israel by ceasing their hostilities towards it which would give Israel no reason to continue it's blockade....but you know it and choose to ignore that fact as do the other posters who choose to only criticize Israel's actions without mention of the reasons for those actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:34 PM

And we're to believe that the day the rockets stop, Israel is going to stop bulldozing buildings, controlling food supplies and building fences across Palestinian farms, cutting them off?

They're going to stop all settlement of Palestinian land and allow Hamas to govern, as it was elected to do?

They're going to retire within their own borders and stay there?

And Santa Claus is alive and well and living in Lapland with a bunch of elves!

And, Bobad, if we don't believe it, how likely are the Gazans to do so?

Of course, if the IDF withdrew and the blockade was lifted......?

But the fanatics who govern Israel are even more intransigent than the Palestinian rebels.

Looks like this will run and run.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 12:54 PM

"Even Jim has told us that."
Don't you dare misquote me you lying turd - I said there were families who were already starving (I didn't bother adding homeless due to having their houses razed to the ground)
I also said that should the Nazi-type 'calorie counting exercise be put into operation there will be wholesale starvation \mong the porer sections of the population)
Why do you bother taking part in these discussions if you can't put forward an honest argument?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:52 AM

Lying turd Jim?
Misquoting you?

On Nov 7 at 6.52AM, in reply to my "No starvation, no shoah, no holocaust" you said, "Nobody has suggested that any of these thigs exist at present "

So, it was not me that lied.
No families are starving Jim.
I have shown that there is plenty of food, and food to spare.
Why do you twats believe all the lies fed to you by the Jihadists?

Don.
And we're to believe that the day the rockets stop, Israel is going to stop bulldozing buildings, controlling food supplies and building fences across Palestinian farms, cutting them off?

They stopped all those things years ago.
There are no Israeli bulldozers in Gaza.
There are no Israelis in Gaza.
Whenever the rockets stop, so do Israels counter attacks.

In the towns of Southern Israel, all the schools are closed as families have to cower never far from the shelters where they have to sleep.
And you twats expect Israel to be gracious in return.
Amazingly, they actually are!
They temper the blockade so that the hate filled wannabe child murderers can fire their evil missiles on full stomachs.
Extraordinary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM

It's only sicko extremists like you who would attempt to differentiate between the extreme hardship now being experienced by the poorest families, and starvation - all described in reports put out by organisations such as Amnesty - read them and claim they are lying, but don't you dare try to say that they are being reported.
It is the same sicko attitude that has attempted to claim that the chemicals used by the Israelis which have inflicted the horrific injuries on men, women and particularly on children, and which have so graphically illustrated in many reports - are not chemical weapons.
If any of this gives you a shred of comfort, please continue to make your claims; it only serves to underline what a monstrous regime you and your fellow zealots are supporting.
At one time, when you were getting no support, would invent it by faking an identity; since having been warned off you now are claiming support from others where you have none.
Extreme hardship, verging on poverty, is being experienced by people who have been made homeless, are unable to sell their produce or feed their families from their crops because they have been deliberately cut off from their land.
There is no MASS poverty at present, but should the proposals being considered by the regime and its ultra nationalist friends be put into place, there certainly will be
And your solution - give up to the hostage takers - "come out with your hands up".
No civilised country agrees to the demands of a regime that takes an entire people hostage and attempts to starve and humiliate them into submission
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 04:43 AM

I have provided plenty of hard evidence to show there is no starvation.
You can not show anything to say there is starvation, because it is a lie.

Gaza has poor people, as does every country.
Do you blame Israel for all the poverty in the world.

There is more than enough food.
Are you accusing Hamas of allowing their poor to starve?
I do not make that accusation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 05:29 AM

"You can not show anything to say there is starvation, because it is a lie.... There is more than enough food."

"The food blockade had real effects. About ten percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition."
http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2012/10/creepy-israeli-planning-for-palestinian-food-insecurity-in-gaza-revealed-2464654.html

" most households have suffered from limited access to basics such as food, water, sanitation, and money,"
"This lack of cash also prevented access to basic supplies including the limited stocks of food in the markets"
"According to the World Food Programme, between 35-60 percent of the agriculture industry has been damaged by the Israeli military operation. The Food and Agriculture Organization estimates that 13,000 families who depend directly on farming, herding and fishing have suffered significant damage to their livelihoods"
"The small amount of aid allowed in, while better than nothing, is a pitiful gesture in the face of such an overwhelming humanitarian crisis," noting that insufficient amounts of food, fuel and medical supplies were delivered.[61] "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Gaza_War

Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

The blockade has produced massive unemployment and poverty, lack of potable water, widespread food insecurity, startlingly high levels of anemia, and the stunting of poorer childrens' growth.
The food blockade had real effects. About ten percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition.
http://www.juancole.com/israel-palestine


Treatment of children by the "humanitarian" Israelis
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=12375&LangID=E

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 05:44 AM

There IS plenty of food.
There is malnutrition due to poverty in most countries, including Britain, Ireland and US.
The poverty and malnutrition in Gaza is no worse than in say Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, Syria etc.

Israel can not be blamed for all of them.

As I showed you, the UN World Food Programme exports Gazan surplus food instead of getting it from Egypt or further afield.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:24 AM

You have the stated and proven effects of the blockade found by the UN, Amnesty, even by Israelis themselves and you continue to support the behaviour of these thugs - you are on your own, so I'll leave you to your sickness
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:00 AM

The blockade is there because Gaza chooses to make war on Israel.
No war, no blockade.
They would rather see their children go hungry than stop attacking Israel and killing Jews.
Right now Israeli children are cowering in shelters, unable to go to school.
What else can Israel do Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM

From the same source JC just quoted:-

"A recent report [pdf] by Save the Children and Medical Aid for Palestinians found that, in addition, anaemia is widespread, affecting over two-thirds of infants, 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, and over a third of pregnant mothers.

I mean, don't those figures make you want to do something for those mothers and children? Wouldn't they melt anyone's heart?

Although, under international pressure, the Israeli government eased its blockade slightly in 2010, and foodstuffs are no longer interdicted, it still limits imports into Gaza, and its wide-ranging ban on exports has thrown Palestinians into unemployment at Depression levels, imperilling their ability to afford food even when it is available.
"

That might just be the explanation of the fact that there is food in then shops and also that surplus food is being exported.

It highlights the dangers of drawing conclusions from one visit, without considering possible explanations, and indeed medical evidence.

Whether you starve a man by food deprivation, or by destroying his means of making a living so that he can't buy food, the end result is the same. Slow and deliberate starvation!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM

Do not try to blame Israel for all the poverty in the Middle East.
Gaza is no worse than Egypt, Yemen, Jordan etc.
Gaza would have much less poverty if they stopped shooting Kazam missile by the dozen, at $500 each.
And if they stopped firing all those missiles, there would be no blockade at all.

"Indicators from the 2009 data showed that 30 percent of Upper Egyptians suffered from caloric deprivation, and 49 percent had poor dietary diversity.

Almost a third of Upper Egyptians suffer from iron, zinc, or vitamin A deficiency. Iron deficiency leads to loss of attention and low productivity, which impinges on education and work. "Anaemia mainly affects children, because their bodies have higher demands," said Hafiz.

A lack of vitamin A may lead to night blindness, also known as nyctalopia, while zinc deficiency may cause severe diarrhoea and pneumonia. These two health problems are common among children in the governorate of Minya, according to Mohamed of Minya University.

"This is a vicious circle, because diarrhoea and pneumonia weaken the immune system, and a weak immune system leads to more diarrhoea and pneumonia," he added. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

THE PRESENT POVERTY AND MALNUTRITION HAS BEEN DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTED TO THE BLOCKADE BY VIRTUALLY ALL COMMENTATORS INCLUDING THE UN AND AMNESTY
NO - IT OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T MELT THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO SUPPORT SUCH ATROCITIES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 08:26 AM

No Jim.
Enough food for all gets in to Gaza.
The malnutrition is the result of poverty, as in Egypt that Gaza was once part of.

In WW2, Britain was close to starving because of the U boat blockade.
We had calorie counting and rationing.
Child health has never been better than it was under the rationing.

Gaza can end the blockade any time by ending the war against Israel.
Prosperity would return.
They prefer war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:07 AM

"And if they stopped firing all those missiles, there would be no blockade at all."

So you keep trying to convince us, but can you show me where the government of Israel has made that commitment plain to the Gazans.

It would be very simple:

"Cease the missiles = immediate withdrawal of the blockade".

"Enough food for all gets in to Gaza.
The malnutrition is the result of poverty, as in Egypt that Gaza was once part of.
"

Not disputed Keith, but the poverty is imposed by Israel blocking exports, impeding imports and destroying the capacity to earn as a direct result.

Not the same as poverty due to the inadequacies of their own government, as was the case with Egypt.

Your arguments have more holes than a sieve.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:17 AM

The other point you made about rationing in Britain during the war is absolute nonsense, for two very good reasons.

1. Our parents went short to make sure we didn't. Child health didn't suffer, but I hardly ever saw a fat adult up to my sixth year.
2. Britain was a half agrarian half industrial country with over 11,000 miles of coastline and the German blockade was never close to being effective, so our food shortage never came close to the level imposed by Israel on Gaza.

They have inflicted vast damage and won't even allow materials for re-building to reach Gaza, and we've all seen the list of forbidden imports.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:29 AM

Don, there are no restrictions on food going in to Gaza, and have not been for over 2 years.
Even before that Israel ensured there was enough so that no-one starved.
The blockade was only imposed because of the rocket attacks.

From Daily Telegraph 2010.
Here is a summary of why Gaza is being blockaded, what is allowed in and out and whether the measures are working.

Why did Israel put the blockade in place?

Israel said it began the blockade to hold Hamas "responsible and accountable" for rocket attacks on Israeli towns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:40 AM

"Enough food for all gets in to Gaza."
So the UN and Amnesty are lying?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:52 AM

Don, WW2 Hisory.com
After the fall of France in June 1940, one stark fact was clear. Without the ability to receive large quantities of material from North America, Britain was doomed. This meant, of course, that the subsequent 'Battle of the Atlantic' was one of the most decisive battles of the entire conflict.

'Churchill himself said at the time,' says Professor David Reynolds, 'and certainly says in his memoirs, that he wasn't really afraid of invasion in 1940. He could imagine the possibility of big raids or something like that on the east coast, but a full scale invasion was less worrying to him than the biggest fear that he had all through the war, which was that Britain's sea lanes would be cut off, and that the country would eventually be starved into submission.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 09:57 AM

Jim,
1. There is no starvation in Gaza.
2. There is no restriction by Israel on food imports to Gaza.
3. Hamas chooses to make war on Israel so they are responsible for the consequent blockade and all the hardships arising from it.

No Shoah in Gaza.
No Holocaust on Gazans.
All lies Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:05 AM

And also:

1. The Earth is Flat.
2. There's no such thing as global climate change.
3. The Moon Landing was faked.
4. There never was a Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis.
5. Elvis isn't dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM

Greg, listing 5 untruths does not invalidate the 3 truths.
If that the best contribution you can make, why bother?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:22 AM

6. And Israel has committed another attack on Gaza in spite of the offer of Palestinian cease fires.

The UN Human Rights Commission is rubbing Obama and Netanyahu's nose in it.

Don't give me this conspiracy theory shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:55 AM

"All lies Jim."
Ta - that'll do nicely
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:03 AM

President Shimon Peres addressed the recent rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel on Tuesday, saying "Hamas needs to decide if it wants a quiet and developing Gaza or an unruly Gaza with no hope."

Speaking to students at the Academic College of Tel Aviv-Jaffa, Peres said "there is no confusion - if you want a normal life - stop firing."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM

Jim, it is a lie that Israel restricts food imports to Gaza.
Deny that?
It may be true that such blockade as there is makes worsens the poverty, but Gaza chooses to be at war.
Deny that?
If they called off the war, they would save the cost of all those expensive Qassams and mortar bombs, and of repairing the damage from Israel's replies.
Deny that?
Also the blockade would be completely lifted, bringing even more prosperity and happiness.

Stringsinger, Ban Ki Moon has slated Hamas for the recent rocket barrages.
Gaza chose to start it, and when they run low on missiles demand a ceasefire to avoid the consequences.
Israel is the victim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 12:24 PM

The blockage is directed at the civilian population
It includes material essential for rebuilding homes deliberately destroyed by the Israelis and farming material necessary for growing produce, both for feeding families and for selling to supplement the family incomes. In addition, the Berlin Wall cuts through Palestinian land, separating the farmers from their crops, in other words, attempting to starve them into submission.
To deliberately target people who have nothing whatever to do with the fighting by such actions is to use them as human shields and is tantamount to a war crime - making the Israeli regime war criminals.
Both Amnesty and the U.N. have identified these actions as the cause of malnutrition in ten percent of Palestinian children.
You and Bobad have both confirmed that the Israelis are using Palestinian civilians as human shields - "there is no confusion - if you want a normal life - stop firing."
By supporting these actions you are supporting war crimes - deny that?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:37 PM

Yes I deny that.
Because Gaza chooses to be at war with Israel, Israel is entitled to establish a blockade.
It is a perfectly legal response and complies with International Law provided humanitarian supplies are allowed, which they always have been.

Stringsinger,
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Monday (yesterday)evening condemned Palestinian rocket fire against southern Israel from Gaza and called for it to end. He also urged Israel to exercise maximum restraint in its response to the attacks.

"Both sides should do everything to avoid further escalation and must respect their obligations under international humanitarian law to ensure the protection of civilians at all times," his office said in a statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 01:32 AM

Ban's statement.

The Secretary-General is greatly concerned by the new wave of violence in Gaza and Southern Israel, which has resulted in several Palestinian deaths, including civilians, and wounded people on both sides.   He deplores the loss of life and calls for an immediate de-escalation of tensions.

The Secretary-General reiterates his call for an immediate cessation of indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palestinian militants targeting Israel and strongly condemns these actions.   He calls on Israel to exercise maximum restraint.   Both sides should do everything to avoid further escalation and must respect their obligations under international humanitarian law to ensure the protection of civilians at all times.
http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=6412


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:57 AM

The blockage is directed at the civilian population

No, it is not, but these are.
More than 110 rockets have hit Israel's south since escalation began on Saturday; after Gaza militants announced truce on Monday, two more rockets have landed in Israeli territory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:27 AM

"More than 110 rockets"
None of which have ben fired by the ten percent of children suffering from malnutrition, or by the farmers whose land has been made unworkable by the Berlin Wall.
Your insistenc that if the rockets stopped then the Israelis would lift the blockade only serves to underline your support for Israeli hostage taking.
You have had the evidence of the reports of malnutrition and poverty brought about by the Israeli punitive measures against the civilian population - you ignore the facts and call those who make those repors "
liars" - The Un, Amnesty International
WERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?
And you claim to be unbiased - sure you are
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:53 AM

Your insistenc that if the rockets stopped then the Israelis would lift the blockade only serves to underline your support for Israeli hostage taking.
Huh??

The blockade was the minimally aggressive response to the deadly, indiscriminate, murderous missiles that Gaza launched and continues to launch against the ordinary Jews and Arabs and terrified children within range.

The Secretary-General reiterates his call for an immediate cessation of indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palestinian militants targeting Israel and strongly condemns these actions.
I join him.
How about you Jim?
Stringsinger?
Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 10:41 AM

If Ban Ki Moon decides to establish prosecution for Israel's imprisonment of the Palestinian people and condemn Israel's war crimes, then I could support him.

As it stands, the minimalism of the damage that is being inflicted on the Palestinians
is an Israeli ruse. Hamas will continue as long as the Palestinian people are caged animals in an open air Israeli prison.

I don't condone the violence inflicted by Hamas or the violence which is far worse by Israel.

But white-washing the Israeli position is tantamount to perpetrating the violence and
those who support Israel's recalcitrance are offering an ignorant appraisal of the actual situation. I have been accused of not having enough information but I'll turn that around
and accuse my accuser of the same misleading information.

"The blockade was the minimally aggressive response to the deadly, indiscriminate, murderous missiles that Gaza launched and continues to launch against the ordinary Jews and Arabs and terrified children within range."

This is absolute horse shit proffered by Keith on this issue. It's extreme Israeli propaganda and not the sort that is agreed to by all of the Israeli people.
As for Palestinian terrorized children, you can see their looks in the eyes as Israeli soldiers abuse and kill them that is if you bother to watch news programs that will show you the real pictures of what's going on there.

A "shoah" of sorts resembling a concentration camp where there are undoubtably
Palestinians on the verge of starvation because they can't make ends meet is taking
place.

I wonder if the defenders of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians are really spies
for the CIA or the Irgun. Of course, there's Obama...........................................


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 12:40 PM

"He could imagine the possibility of big raids or something like that on the east coast, but a full scale invasion was less worrying to him than the biggest fear that he had all through the war, which was that Britain's sea lanes would be cut off,"

What Churchill feared never actually happened you twerp (WW2 History). The sea lanes were never completely, ar even near completely closed, so what exactly are you blethering about?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM

"2. There is no restriction by Israel on food imports to Gaza."

This whole thread is about Israel putting Gaza on a diet.

So who is deciding on how many truckloads are allowed to go through this non existent (according to blinkered you) restriction?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 12:52 PM

"Israel is the victim."

OH SURE! And bullies make a regular habit of hitting their victims in the baseball bats with their chins.

You really are a caution Keith. Pity so many human beings have to suffer to produce your fairy tales.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM

"If they called off the war, they would save the cost of all those expensive Qassams and mortar bombs, and of repairing the damage from Israel's replies.
Deny that?
Also the blockade would be completely lifted, bringing even more prosperity and happiness.
"

You have an inside line to Israel's foreign policy?

There is no hard and fast commitment to stop the blockade, the attacks, or anything else Israel may decide to inflict on its much weaker neighbour.

The Gazans are supposed to trust that any of that will happen? Their past experience of land grabbing and oppression wouldn't engender any great enthusiasm for that, would it?

And your final sentence shows just how tenuous your grasp on reality actually is.

"EVEN MORE PROSPERITY AND HAPPINESS????????"

You think they have prosperity and happiness now in their piles of rubble, needing food they can't afford, because their jobs have been blown away by shelling and missiles?

What God forsaken planet, in a galaxy far far away, are you living on with your blindfold and earplugs?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 01:12 PM

"The blockade was the minimally aggressive response to the deadly, indiscriminate, murderous missiles that Gaza launched and continues to launch against the ordinary Jews and Arabs and terrified children within range."

And the maximally aggressive destruction of Olive trees, houses, factories, schools, hospitals and a UN Post and the deaths and injuries therefrom?

Who did that?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:08 PM

Don,
This whole thread is about Israel putting Gaza on a diet.

So who is deciding on how many truckloads are allowed to go through this non existent (according to blinkered you) restriction?


Don, it is a fact that Israel does not restrict food imports to Gaza.
No-one is deciding how many truckloads go through.
They can have as many as they like.
This whole thread is shite.
That is what I have been telling you.

The blockade began because of the missiles and Israel has repeatedly stated it will only continue while Gaza makes war on them, which seems reasonable. (See Bobad's post about recent statements.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:13 PM

Jim, remember this conversation?
Me.
"Those poor people need essential supplies.
The IRC is begging for an opportunity to get stuff in.
What would be the point of your "trade embargo" Jim?
How would that stop the daily massacres?"

You.
"Those poor people need essential supplies."
These people need to be stopped getting killed first and foremost - a proven method of dealing with dictators is not to call them facile names but to threaten their economy and their power base."

And that dictator was not actually bombing us!
We were just reacting to how their own people were treated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 08:43 PM

"This whole thread is shite.
That is what I have been telling you.
"

And we should take your word for it because you have such a wonderful reputation for even mindedness?????

YEAH RIGHT!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:04 AM

It is a pain trying to debate with people lacking knowledge of basic facts.
You do not have to take my word Don.
Ask Jim Carroll.
Use Google.
Then you can choose to admit you were wrong, or slink silently away.
I wonder which you will choose.
(not)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 02:44 AM

Stringsinger,
"The blockade was the minimally aggressive response to the deadly, indiscriminate, murderous missiles that Gaza launched and continues to launch against the ordinary Jews and Arabs and terrified children within range."

This is absolute horse shit proffered by Keith on this issue. It's extreme Israeli propaganda and not the sort that is agreed to by all of the Israeli people.


Not horse shit, but a simple statement of fact.
The minimal blockade was in direct response to the missiles that, in blatant contravention of International Law, indiscriminately target and terrorise civilians including Palestinian Israelis and children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:59 AM

I note with interest your shying away from responding to:

"And the maximally aggressive destruction of Olive trees, houses, factories, schools, hospitals and a UN Post and the deaths and injuries therefrom?

WHO did that?????
"

Since you choose not to answer, I'll do it for you.

ISRAEL and the heavy handed ISRAELI DEFENCE(?) FORCE!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:52 AM

4 years ago, to try and stop the relentless rocket bombardment against its towns, Israel mounted a brief incursion.
Hamas fought from built up areas so building were damaged.

No rockets, no reason to invade.
Using their own people and buildings as shields was a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

"GAZA (Reuters) - A Hamas rocket killed three Israelis north of the Gaza Strip on Thursday, drawing the first blood from Israel as the Palestinian death toll rose to 13 and a military showdown lurched closer to all-out war with an invasion of the enclave.
Israeli warplanes bombed targets in and around Gaza city, where tall buildings trembled. Plumes of smoke and dust furled into a sky laced with the vapor trails of outgoing rockets.
Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi said in a televised address to the nation that Israel's attacks on the Gaza Strip were "unacceptable" and would lead to instability in the region.
In a telephone conversation with U.S. President Barack Obama, Mursi said he had discussed "ways to reach calm and end the aggression".
The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas claimed it had fired a one-ton, Iranian-made Fajr 5 rocket at Tel Aviv in what would be a major escalation, but there was no reported impact in the Israeli metropolis 50 km (30 miles) north of the enclave.
Israel's sworn enemy Iran, which supports and arms Hamas, condemned the offensive begun by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) as "organized terrorism"."





So, Don et al, I hope you are satisfied.

When Iran lets them have a nuclear weapon, the fallout from the explosion in Israel will kill most if not all the Palestinians, including all those children that the Palestinians would rather have a 1 ton missile to attack Israel than the food you think they need.


BTW, no one has answered my question about why the border should NOT be the 1924 ( I think) lines that were the LAST ones accepted by the Arab world.


200


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:51 AM

So Netanyahu's election campaign has started up again. On very much the same lines as the last one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM

FRom JerusalePost:

Report: Egypt mediating ceasefire between Israel, Hamas
By JPOST.COM STAFF
LAST UPDATED: 11/11/2012 21:18
Egyptian officials are mediating between Israel and Hamas in an attempt to reach a ceasefire agreement to end the escalation of violence in the South, Israel Radio reported on Sunday.

Palestinian terrorists in Gaza have fired nearly 80 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel in the past 24 hours, wounding three. Six Palestinians have been killed in IAF strikes on Gaza.


At this point (with a tentative ceasefire agreement not merely in negotiation, but actually due to place, according to some Israeli sources) Israel carried out a targetted assassination of Hamas military chief Ahmed Jabari, with the totally predictable consequence of an immediate escalation of attacks and counterattacks, and deaths on both sides.

Just what the doctor ordered...

It's crazy for Hamas to allow themselves to be used by Netanyahu in this way. "Crazy" includes "wicked" of course - but the so does using that craziness for political advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM

Ah, jeez, Kevin - don't try to confuse Bruce with facts - that's a lost cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM

"So Netanyahu's election campaign has started up again"

Right, he conspired with Hamas to get them to launch hundreds of rockets into Israel knowing that the Israelis would be compelled into action to put a stop to it.

Try again....that's a fail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM

This commentator has got it right: In Gaza, Hamas military leader Ahmed Jabari got what he deserved

Here is a list of Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades', of which Jabari was commander, attacks against Israel:

    1993 April 16: A Hamas suicide car bomb kills two in Mehola Junction bombing.
    1994 October 19: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus in Tel Aviv, killing 22 and injuring 56. Hamas claims responsibility.[15]
    1994 December 25: A suicide bomber detonates at a bus stop in Jerusalem, wounding 12.[15]
    1995 April 9: Two suicide bombers detonate in Gaza, killing one American, seven IDF soldiers and injuring 50. Hamas and Islamic Jihad both claim responsibility.[16]
    1995 August 21: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus, killing one American, four IDF soldiers and injuring 100. Hamas claims responsibility.[16]
    1997 March 21: A Hamas suicide bomber detonated at a Tel Aviv sidewalk café, killing three women and wounding 46.[16]
    1997 September 4: Three suicide bombers detonate in Jerusalem, killing four and injuring up to 200. Hamas claims responsibility.[17]
    1998 August 27: A bomb in a garbage bin explodes in Tel Aviv during rush hour injuring 14. Hamas claims responsibility.[17]
    1998 October 19: Two grenades thrown into a crowd at the Be'er Sheva bus station during rush hour injuring 59. Hamas claims responsibility.[18]
    1998 October 29: A Hamas suicide car bomber attempts to ram a school bus head on near the Gush Katif Junction. An IDF jeep escorting the bus blocked the bomber who detonated the vehicle, killing the driver of the jeep and injuring two others. Six people in the bus received light injuries.[18]

Beginning of Second Intifada September, 2000.

    2001 January 1: A Hamas suicide car bomber detonates in the city of Netanya, injuring 59. One victim died seven days later.[19]
    2001 February 14: A Hamas suicide bomber plowed a bus into a crowd and detonated, killing 8 and injuring 21.[20]
    2001 March 4: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates in the city of Netanya, three killed and 68 injured.[19]
    2001 March 28: A Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up amidst a group of students waiting at a bus stop in Qalqilya in the West Bank. Two killed and four injured.[19]
    2001 April 22: A Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up Kfar Saba killing one and injuring 50.[19]
    2001 May 18: An Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up at the entrance of a shopping mall in the city of Netanya. Five people were killed with more than 100 injured.[19]
    2001 June 1: A suicide bomber linked to Hamas kills 21 and injures 76 in the Dolphinarium massacre in Tel Aviv.
    2001 August 9: A suicide bomber detonates in Jerusalem killing fifteen and wounding 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing. Hamas and Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine both claimed responsibility.
    2001 September 4: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates in West Jerusalem injuring 15.[19]
    2001 November 26: A suicide bomber detonates at the Erez Crossing injuring 2. Hamas claimed responsibility.[21]
    2001 December 4: Two suicide bombers detonated one after the other followed by a car bomb in a mall in West Jerusalem. 11 killed and more than 130 injured. Hamas claimed responsibility.[21]
    2001 December 2: A suicide bomber boarded an Israeli bus traveling from the Neveh Sha'anan district in Haifa, paying the driver with a large bill he then blew himself up killing 15 and injuring 40. Hamas claimed responsibility.[21]
    2002 March 9: 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded in the crowded Moment cafe in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[22]
    2002 March 31: A suicide bomber kills 15 and injures over 40 in an Arab restaurant in Haifa in the Matza restaurant massacre. Hamas claimed responsibility.[23]
    2002 April 10: Six IDF soldiers and two civilians were killed and 22 injured in a suicide bombing on a bus near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[23]
    2002 May 7: 16 people were killed and 55 wounded in a suicide bombing in a crowded pool hall in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv. According to the Israeli government, Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[24]
    2002 May 19: Three people were killed and 59 injured when a suicide bomber disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.[24]
    2002 June 18: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus in Jerusalem in the Patt junction massacre. The attack kills 19 people and wounds over 74. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
    2002 July 16: Nine people were killed and 20 injured in a terrorist attack on a bus traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel. An explosive charge was detonated next to the bullet-resistant bus. The terrorists waited in ambush, reportedly wearing Israeli army uniforms, and opened fire on the bus. Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the DFLP, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad all claimed responsibility for the attack.[25]
    2002 July 31: Nine people, including five Americans, were killed and 85 wounded when a bomb detonated by a cell phone exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack but expressed regret for the death of the Americans.[26]
    2002 August 4: Nine people were killed and some 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus at the Meron junction in the Galilee. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[27]
    2002 September 19: Six people were killed and about 70 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a bus opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2002 October 10: One man was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board a bus across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2002 October 27: Three soldiers were killed and about 20 people were wounded in a suicide bombing in Ariel. The victims were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. The terrorist was identified as a member of Hamas.[citation needed]
    2003 May 17: A suicide bomber detonated himself next to a pregnant Israeli woman and her husband at a public square in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility.[citation needed]
    2003 May 19: A suicide bomber on a bicycle attacked an Israeli checkpoint on the Gaza Strip. Hamas claimed responsibility.[citation needed]
    2003 June 11: A Hamas Palestinian suicide bomber, dressed as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, detonated his explosives belt on a bus in downtown Jerusalem. Palestinian terrorists have attempted 11 suicide bombings and murdered 23 Israelis in the last 4 days, since Palestinians "accepted" the "roadmap for peace" and the end of violence.[citation needed]
    2004 January 14: A violent suicide bomber blew herself up at one of the entrances to Gaza's main Erex crossing terminal to Israel, killing three Israeli soldiers and a civilian and wounding twelve others. Hamas and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Fatah) jointly claimed responsibility. Hamas stated it used a woman suicide bomber for the first time in order to counter Israeli precautions.[citation needed]
    2004 January 17: The armed wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for an attack in which two gunmen infiltrated Kiryat Arba, near Hebron, and killed a settler and wounded two others. The armed attackers knocked on the door and opened fire inside when it was answered.[citation needed]
    2004 January 29: A suicide bomber blew up a bus near the prime minister's residence, killing ten bystanders and wounding at least fifty. Prime Minister Sharon was not home at the time of the bombing. The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. Hamas has also claimed responsibility for the bombing and denounced al-Aqsa. Hamas has also sent a picture of the suicide bomber to the media to verify their claim.[citation needed]
    2004 March 14: Ten Israeli civilians and two Palestinians suicide-bombers were killed when they blew themselves up at the southern port of Ashdod. One bomb went off at a citrus fruit packaging factory and the other at an office just outside the perimeter of the port. A cache of grenades was found later hidden in a bag with a false bottom. Hamas and the al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the blasts, stating they were in retaliation for recent members deaths in Jenin.[citation needed]
    2004 June 28: Two Israelis were killed and about fifteen others were injured when two home-made Qassam rockets landed on Sederot. Hamas has claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2004 June 29: A Palestininan rocket attack near a kindergarten in Sederot killed a child and a man. More than ten people were injured. Hamas has claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2004 July 25: children were injured when an anti-tank rocket was fired at a community center in Neve Dekalim. The rocket was fired from Khan Yunis and came as thousands of people were gathered at the center to protest against the Gaza disengagement plan. The children were playing in the yard outside of the center when the rocket struck. The Al-Qassam Brigades, a Hamas-linked militant group, claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2004 August 31: Two buses near the Beersheba municipality building were blown up by a suicide bomber. The suicide bomber took advantage of the fact that the two buses were standing together. He blew up a bomb on one bus and then exploded a second bomb on the second bus. At least fifteen people were killed and around eighty-five injured. The military wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, saying that it as a response to the assassination of Yasin, a leading Hamas official.[citation needed]
    2004 September 7: A rocket was fired at the Sederot settlement. One person sustained slight injuries. The military wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]

End of Second Intifada.

    2008 February 27: In February, 257 rockets and 228 mortars were fired from the Gaza Strip into the western Negev causing five injuries and on 27 February the death of a 47 year old student at Sapir College. Hamas has previously claimed responsibility for rocket barrages.[28]


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:50 PM

A ceasefire appears to have been available, bringing an end to the recent spasm of futile rocket attacks. Israel chose instead to carry out an assassination of one of the other side's leaders - eight other people were also killed in this assassination, including a seven-year-old girl. In doing so they ensured a massive escalation of violence by Hamas, which provided the justification for an even greater - far greater - escalation of violence by Israel.

I think it is reasonable to suspect that the fact that an election is due in Israel in a few weeks is not unconnected to this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM

You don't think Hamas knew exactly what the response would be? Don't be such a fool, this is what they always do then hide behind civilians who are killed and wounded so the "Arab street", rabid Jew haters and their useful idiots spew out their own venom.....it's getting old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:41 PM

You mean that Hamas agreed to that ceasefire in the expectation that Israel would carry out that assassination massacre, in the knowledge that this would bring about an escalation of violence by Hamas in the knowledge that that would allow a massive retaliation which would...

I'm afraid you could print that last post replacing "Hamas" by Isreal", "Arab street" by "Israeli street" and "rabid Jew haters" by "rabid Arab haters", and would be just as (partially) true.

This is a matter of partnership between those on both sides who have given their minds over to violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:54 PM

"This is a matter of partnership between those on both sides who have given their minds over to violence."

I'm sorry but there would have been no violence from Israel if there had been no rockets launched from Gaza. Why were the rockets launched?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM

This latest round of rocket attacks started back in October and was unprovoked.
Hamas knew as well as anyone about the elections, even though they don't have such things.
No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back.
Schools and businesses shut for weeks and terrified families cowering in shelters.
Would you tolerate that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:19 PM

McGrath

The ceasefire ending Operation Cast Lead has been violated to the tune of 797 rockets and we haven't heard a word of condemnation from you...why is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:33 PM

It's easy to make assumptions from afar, based on the media we get access to. But for those in the danger zones.. Both Israelis and Palestinians want negotiation, not bombs


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 06:46 AM

From The Times of Israel: Israeli involved in talks with Hamas says Jabari supported long-term ceasefire

"An Israeli peace activist who has been instrumental in talks with Hamas in the past said Thursday that Israel may have destroyed its only chance for calm by assassinating Gaza military chief Ahem Jabari a day earlier.

Gershon Baskin, the founder and former co-director of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, told the Times of Israel that Jabari was just hours from giving his okay to a long-term ceasefire with Israel when a car he was riding in was blown up by Israeli forces, marking the start of Operation Pillar of Defense."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM

"Israel may have destroyed its only chance for calm"

Ha, ha....that is rich....the recipient of 797 rockets during a ceasefire is destroying its only chance for calm......puhleese.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:31 AM

And their only chance for peace was a man who so hated Jews that he could not even speak to one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:43 AM

"[Israel] did not initiate this attack .... We continued to absorb a trickle of missiles, about a 100 missiles every day and at a certain point in time the government of Israel says 'enough is enough' and we are going to change the basic situation."

- Raanan Gissin, one-time adviser to former Israeli PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:08 AM

..."at a certain point in time"...

Precisely. As in 2008, at the point in time when an election is pending. And it seems very possible, at a point there there might have been a danger that the cycle of violence round which local politics is built might be ended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

No McG.
The current round of missile attacks has resulted in the closure of all schools and many businesses in that area for about 3 weeks, and about a fifth of the entire population cowering within a minute of their shelters.
You could say that they should have acted after one week, or after two weeks, but not to let it go on until after the elections.

You need to ask why Hamas started it when they did, not Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

Things can only get better when the various parties act intelligently rather than reactively.

It is irrational to imagine that violence achieves an end to violence in response. The only result of Israel's last war on Gaza, aside from the enormous destruction and heartbreaking loss of life, most of it of totally innocent people, has been that Hamas is stronger today than it was then. (Though that leaves aside what I find it impossible to avoid seeing as a mainspring for Israel's action - political success for the Natanyahu administration, facing a fresh elections in a few weeks.)

Arguing in terms of where the cycle of violent atrocity and counter-atrocity begins is pointless. The only way to end it is for one side to refuse to continue the cycle. The people with whom peace will be made are the people who have been involved in organising violence. That is always the case. You don't reach a Good Friday Agreement by assassinating the likes of Gerry Hawes and Martin McGuinness (together with any unfortunate people who happen to be near them at the time of your "surgical strike").

The best comment on the killing of al-Jaabari is what Talleyrand said about a political killing carried out by Napoleon: "It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder." And that goes for the whole Gaza policy of Israel. (As well, of course, for the grotesque business of the futile as well as lethal missiles launched so ineffectually by Palestinians.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:26 PM

Gerry Adams, not Gerry Hawes, I meant of course - mindslip there, I'm afraid...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 06:08 PM

The only way to end it is for one side to refuse to continue the cycle
For Hamas it is not a cycle.
They are on a road that leads to the destruction of Israel.
We can now see why they instigated all this.
They have accumulated a vast stockpile of lovely new Iranian missiles in hiding places not known to Israel.

If Israel did nothing, to break a non-existent cycle, it would become a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible.

But, it is not only Palestinian fanatics who dream of the destruction of Israel, is it boys...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM

"They are on a road that leads to the destruction of Israel.
We can now see why they instigated all this.
"

Are you really that much of a fool Keith?

Do you really believe that David and Goliath crap, that Gaza has the ghost of a chance of seriously damaging Israel, with its vast superiority of both resources and armament technology, including nukes?

As well try to stop tanks with snowballs!

"If Israel did nothing, to break a non-existent cycle, it would become a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible."

- a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible. -

What a beautifully succinct and accurate description of the situation in Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.

And there you have it Keith! What do people do when they are held in thrall by xenophobic neighbours?

THEY RESIST!

And before you start once again to put your choice of words into my mouth, I deplore the violence of the small minority who fire rockets into Israel. There is no possible justification for it, but I equally deplore the viciously indiscriminate punishment meted out to all Gazans by the psychopathic government of Israel and its murderous so-called "defence" force.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:19 PM

An anti-tank rocket was fired from the Palestinian resistance at an Israeli jeep on November 10, which Israel has described as the initial provocation in the latest round of hostilities.

However the Israeli forces encircling the Gaza Strip killed a mentally unfit man approaching the border fence on November 4. They called upon him to stop, and when he did not heed their calls, they shot him down and then prevented Palestinian medics from reaching him for hours, causing him to die from what were thought to be treatable injuries. And on November 8 Israeli forces shot at Ahmed Younis Khader Abu Daqqa, who was playing soccer with his friends 1500 metres from an Israeli military post when a gunman put a bullet through his abdomen. He died soon after. Ahmed was 13.

So that rocket from the Palestinians could be seen to have been responding to these attacks on civilians by Israelis.

It's clear as usual that either side could be targeted as the instigator.

In conflict resolution both parties have to admit their 50%. It is a terrible life for Israelis and Palestinians living close to the occupied areas, when politicians on both sides escalate rather than negotiate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:26 AM

Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.
Not true Don.
No civilian supplies are resricted, and every Israeli has left, and the border with Egypt is open.

I deplore the violence of the small minority who fire rockets into Israel.
It is not a small minority.
It is Hamas, who apart from being a terrorist organisation, are also the government of Gaza.
Gaza is at war with Israel.
Why do you all expect kindness in return?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:34 AM

However powerful Israel might appear, it has no defence against the missiles.
Iron Dome can only stop a few.
However powerful Israel, its people die if hit by rockets, and they get about a minute of warning.
So how can you deny the terrorising of civilians especially those in the South, but now beyond.
Freda, the current missile bombardment started back in October, when Hamas also dropped the pretence that it was not responsible for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM

It seems that Israel is again opening up another war with the Palestinians after a potential
cease fire was broken by them. Hamas' rockets are not potent enough to match the murder of innocent civilian Palestinians by Israel's aggression and subjugation.
The terrorizing of innocent Palestinians far outnumbers the casualties in Israel.
The defense against Hamas is a full out war as was "Cast Lead", this one called "The Pillar of Cloud" which has bombarded Gaza on Saturday. Netanyahu has threatened to launch a ground invasion. There is no justification for this massive military action on the part of Israel, the most militarized country in the world. The idea that Israel is the victim, here,
is ludicrous. They have nuclear weapons, also. The only reason they are allowed to war against the Palestinians is that they have the full support of the U.S.

Hamas is a dangerous and aggressive enemy but is not as capable of destruction as Israel.

For every few Israelis that have been killed, there have been far more Palestinian lives taken.

Keith, your appraisal of the conflict is wanting in terms of reality and facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:59 AM

Civilians are being terrorised both in Gaza and in Israel. Obviously.

The only rational or moral justification for responding violently to violence is that it might serve to prevent and deter a violent response, otherwise it goes on for ever, as it has in the Holy Land throughout all our lifetimes. No sane person and no honest person can believe that there is any question of that kind of justification for the present use of violence by either side.

As the quote I gave puts it, "It's worse than a crime, it's a blunder."

We may rightly try to understand and explain what happens - but when we move on to support and encourage that blunder we share at least some symbolic responsibility for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM

Why is the governing authority of Gaza firing missiles into Israel?

No missiles no reaction, no violence.

Simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM

There is no justification for this massive military action on the part of Israel,

No government can remain inactive while its people are subject to bombardment.
Physical casualties in Israel are few because the terrified families are cowering in shelters instead of going to work or the children to school.

McG, I take it you agree that is unacceptable, so what other non-violent response can they make?
no honest person can believe that there is any question of that kind of justification for the present use of violence by either side.
I am an honest person.
Israel's actions have already brought about a large reduction in missile launches.
Again, what else could they have done?

Why don't the Gazans just stop firing missiles?
Why do you Lefties all ignore the effect the missiles have on their terrified targets?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:44 AM

Why don't they stop firing missiles from Gaza? For the same reason Israel continues to pour armed force into Gaza. Both sides currently are justifying their use of violence by the fact that the other side is using violence against them. That has been true for generations now. It can go on for ever.

Over any extended period there is no reason to believe that Israel's use of force has reduced the firing of missiles. Insofar as the number of missiles has decreased at various times (except in the very short term), other factors have been involved - including, it has claimed, the influence of Jaabari, the latest Hamas leader assassinated by Israel.

When, as a direct result of Israel escalation of violence, Israelis in Tel Aviv for the first time in a generation find themselves under missile attack, it is bizarre to see that escalation of violence as the way to reduce the danger of such attack, or as a rational act - except in cynical political terms relating to the pending election, when it does indeed make a kind of sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM

No McGrath, the question is why was Hamas firing missiles into Israel BEFORE the Israelis responded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 10:27 AM

OK Keith, here's what you don't get. The Israeli government is not cowering at all, in fact,
their major goal is to control an inevitable Palestine, a hegemonic design which is leading to genocide. Israel has nuclear submarines, nuclear delivery systems, is highly armed and
one of the rogue states perceived by the rest of the world. The U.S. is the second.

The reason Israel wants to control a Palestinian state is the same reason the U.S. wants
to quash independence not out of fear but for control.

Hamas is a militant reaction to Israeli occupation and its goal to quash an independent
Palestinian state. This is why rockets are being fired. The Palestinian people want their state and not to be controlled by a hegemonic Israel.

Also, there is a religious dimension to this war as well. Israel, contrary to popular propaganda is not a secular state. It is a Jewish state and Judaism is a religion. This situation is analogous to those in the U.S. who insist that America is a Christian nation. If Romney had been elected, this would have been his view, even if he is Mormon.


The Hamas has to be seen as a violent reaction to Israeli oppression, something, Keith
that you don't accept apparently.

Since you bring up the "Leftie" card, that means to me that you are not as impartial
on this issue as you claim to be since you use this term indiscriminately.
I assume that your use of the term "Leftie" means that you are a "Rightie", not very objective at all.

The idea that the Israeli government is afraid of a Palestinian state is nonsense.
It's an issue of control and like the U.S., the elite here want to quash independence and democracy around the world. Israel is following suit.

Operation "Pillar of Cloud" is attempt for a strict abusive Israeli father to punish a recalcitrant Palestinian wayward child.

Don't tell me that Israel would stop the settlements, the appropriation of land,
the control of checkpoints, the military abuse if Hamas would stop firing rockets.

The Israeli idea of peace is controlling its neighbors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 01:33 PM

"Leftie" and "rightie" are irrelevant in this context.
.......................
Actually I disagree with Stringsinger where he/she suggests that those firing rockets from Gaza are doing something that is ever going to "stop the settlements, the appropriation of land, the control of checkpoints, the military abuse".

In fact I'd suggest that the opposite is true - those firing the rockets are perhaps the most effective thing that helps Israel get away with that kind of thing, and gets on the way of there being developed an effective campaign of non-violent resistance, opposition and boycott, locally and world-wide, that could really challenge Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:27 PM

"Also, there is a religious dimension to this war as well."

If you take it to a fine definition, most wars have a religious dimension of one form or another. But, that does not make all wars religious wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:30 PM

Yes, it is not just Lefties that always criticise Israel and never her enemies.
Don for instance.
(I am of the centre String since you ask, which would place me well to the Left in US.)
I never suggested that Israel's government is cowering.
Just the terrified families of the South.
Why do you people trivialise their suffering?
Any government would act to stop it, election or not.

Israel IS a secular state, and much less dominated by religion than any of its neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:36 PM

The Guardian, October24th
More than 70 rockets have been fired into southern Israel from Gaza since the departure on Tuesday(previous day!) of the emir of Qatar, whose visit to the Gaza Strip was seen as a boost for its ruling faction, Hamas. Three foreign agricultural workers were injured and several buildings were hit.

Four militants were killed in resurgent Israeli air strikes overnight as a short period of calm ended. Three were members of Hamas's military wing, the Ezzedin al-Qassam brigades, according to reports on its website.

Hamas, which normally distances itself from rocket fire from Gaza, has claimed responsibility for some operations in recent days. "These holy missions come in response to the repeated, continuous crimes of the enemy against our people, which killed four and injured 10 in the past 48 hours," it said in a statement.

Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, said he would order whatever action was necessary to stop rocket fire from Gaza. "If a ground operation will be necessary, there will be a ground operation. Nobody is eager for this but we will act as we are required to stop this wave and to increase the effectiveness of the operation."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM

This loaded word 'minority' wants its hash settled.

Criminals are a *minority* of society: so what does Don T think we should do? Abolish the police and let them get on with it because thy are just a *minority*?

It was a *minority* who destroyed the twin Towers on 9/11; I mean - count them: 4 - two for each tower. So that's all right, eh, Don? How much smaller a *minority* could you have?

Even if it was a *minority* firing rockets from Gaza [which it isn't; it's the elected govt as Keith so rightly points out], would that mean the resultant missiles didn't matter? Only a *minority* firing them, so let 'em come?

Oh, come on Don. You are not as stupid as that.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:07 PM

"The last Gaza war, a lopsided three-week long Israeli air blitz and ground invasion over the New Year period of 2008-2009 aimed at ending repeated rocket attacks, left more than 1,400 Palestinians dead, mostly civilian, and killed 13 Israelis."

One hundred to one kill rate in Israel's favour......PROPORTIONAL to what?

And now they have Netanyahu's consent to mobilise up to 30,000 reservists, 16,000 of which are already being processed.

So where do they plan to stop?

70 kilometres inside the Gaza border completely sanitised, so that no rocket can reach Israel????

It seems the Isralis carrying out these disproportionate acts of murderous aggression are too stupid to realise that Israelis haven't cornered the market in love of country.

They would fight to the last against foreign agression or control, why can't they see that the Palestinians will do exactly the same.

The Israelis must be aware that the only possible military solution if they keep fighting will be the complete annihilation of the Gazan Palestinians, man, woman and child, given the immense disparity in arms and resources.

Is that what they really want?

They really need to talk, whatever it takes.

They could take the moral high ground by declaring a unilateral truce, on condition that the UN put on place a peacekeeping force between Israel and Gaza while they reach a negotiated settlement.

Israel would gain considerable credibility worldwide if they did that.

The military alternative will eventually alienate and inflame the surrounding Muslim countries to the point of uniting and attacking Israel. Netanyahu is a loose cannon who needs to be removed, before he embroils the whole Middle East in a war to the death.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:16 PM

"Why do you Lefties all ignore the effect the missiles have on their terrified targets?"

Ignoring your ignorant assumption that everybody who disagrees with you is a leftie (I'm not! Ask Richard Bridge.) Why do you ignore the fact that exactly the same is true of all the innocent Palestinians in Gaza.

Every time you post taking sides with Israel you condone what they are doing. There are two sides to every argument and what you claim for one, we claim also for the other.

Every time you state that Israel is responding proportionately, you are aware that your statement is untrue.

We had the same from you over the Northern Ireland troubles.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:37 PM

"Oh, come on Don. You are not as stupid as that."

No Mike, I'm not.

read my post of 03.07 P.M.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 04:04 PM

Every time you post taking sides with Israel you condone what they are doing

All they are doing is trying to survive.
They just want their neighbours to leave them alone.
To stop trying to kill their people.
Why won't the Gazans just stop trying to kill Jews?

They could take the moral high ground by declaring a unilateral truce, on condition that the UN put on place a peacekeeping force between Israel and Gaza while they reach a negotiated settlement.

They did declare a unilateral truce.
Withdrew leaving all the infrastructure they had built, evicting settlers at gunpoint.
Gaza dedicated itself to the destruction of Israel and declared war.
The UN in Lebanon never stopped Hezbollah attacking Israel and UN in Gaza do not stop missile launches.
Hamas does not want peace.
It wants all Jews dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM

The cricial thing to note about the last war on Gaza was that it was claimed to be justified on the grounds that it was going to put an end to missile attacks. The 1400 dead, mostly unarmed civilians, and a very high proportion of them children were a price worth paying to stop the missiles.

And it did not achieve that - and the fact that missile launching commenced once more is seen as justification for another war now.

The only truly effective way to stop the missiles is negotiation. At the beginning of November negotiations aimed at stopping the missiles were in progress, involving Al Jaabari, and there seem good grounds for believing that a ceasefire was at the point of being agreed, when Al Jaabari was assassinated (along with eight other people who were in his vicinihty,including a seven year old girl). There have been no indications that this happened because negotiations had failed, and some that suggest that it happened because they seemed to be succeeding.
......................

"Hamas does not want peace. It wants all Jews dead." That's more or less what is called a "blood libel" when that kind of thing is said about Jews. It is just not true.

Hamas are a ruthless nationalist organisation, which has carried out many terrible terrorist actions. In all these ways it is closely analogous to the Zionist organisations who founded Israel in their battle with the British, and with those who opposed their aims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:38 PM

"The 1400 dead, mostly unarmed civilians, and a very high proportion of them children were a price worth paying to stop the missiles.

And it did not achieve that - and the fact that missile launching commenced once more is seen as justification for another war now.
"

Abso-bloomin'-lutely!!

"The only truly effective way to stop the missiles is negotiation."

Halle-bloody-luia!

"Hamas are a ruthless nationalist organisation, which has carried out many terrible terrorist actions. In all these ways it is closely analogous to the Zionist organisations who founded Israel in their battle with the British, and with those who opposed their aims."

Agreed, and it's about time Israel developed a memory for other situations than their holocaust victim status. They simply cannot continue to classify any dissent about their actions as Jew Hating.

It is not Jews who are smashing the life out of the dispossessed former inhabitants of Palestine. It is solely the government and military of Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza, bombed out of their homes, schools and hospitals, and deprived of the means of making a living, are never going to stop fighting, no matter who governs Gaza.

Up to now Israel have been fighting, first small numbers of terrorists, then the government of Gaza, Hamas. But after this they'll find themselves fighting every Palestinian who can hold a weapon, and it's their own fault.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM

McG, it is true that the last incursion was also an attempt to stop the missile offensive against the towns of Southern Israel.
A reasonable and perfectly legitimate objective.
It is also true that it failed, and many lives were lost for little gain, and here we are again with Hamas trying to kill more Jews. (not a blood libel, that is what their missiles are for).

Al Jabaari was deeply involved in the rocketing of Israel.
Israel has been after him for years.
I do not believe he wanted to make peace with Israel.
His hatred was so great he would not speak to any Jew, even a sympathetic peace activist.
I am quite certain this shit about him negotiating for peace is just more propaganda.
Do not believe everything they say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:07 PM

No rockets from Gaza no reaction from Israel - the blood of every Palestinian victim lies squarely on the hands of Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:37 PM

Pro Israel...

Pro Palestinian...

Anti Netanyahu... He's a thug that is going to get a lot of people killed... He is the Dick Cheney of Israel...

I'm sick of people like him... They think war first, second and third and is trying to box the US into a deep war in the Middle East...

No thanks, BB... Go screw yourself...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:53 PM

"Do not believe everything they say."

Why not Keith, when you feel free to believe everything the Israeli propagandists say?

There are lies on both sides Keith!

There are deaths on both sides Keith!

There are crimes against humanity on both sides Keith!

Should the French in Vichy not have resisted in WW2? They weren't occupied, merely controlled. The Nazis weren't bombing them, merely blockading them. I'll bet you consider the maquis to be heroes, just as I do.

So why do you make comments like "If Israel did nothing, to break a non-existent cycle, it would become a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible.""""

and wimp out of making any proper reply when I respond with: "

"-a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible-.

What a beautifully succinct and accurate description of the situation in Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.

And there you have it Keith! What do people do when they are held in thrall by xenophobic neighbours?

THEY RESIST!
"

Your response: "Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.
Not true Don.
No civilian supplies are resricted, and every Israeli has left, and the border with Egypt is open.
".

Which neatly dodged the point of the statement, by choosing what to react to.

-Israel is a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible-!

"Just the terrified families of the South.
Why do you people trivialise their suffering?
Any government would act to stop it, election or not.
"

And Israel does, violently and without concern for the people of Gaza.

-Gaza is a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible-!

"Just the terrified families of the Gaza Strip.
Why do you people trivialise their suffering?
Any government would act to stop it, election or not.

And Hamas does, violently and without concern for the people of Israel, BUT MUCH LESS effectively violent.

The difference is that Israel can crush Gaza whenever it wishes to, and it wishes to far too often.

Our fathers fought against the attempts of well armed aggressors to take away our and their freedoms. It seems that Israel has too short a memory.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:13 PM

What you wrote, Keith (read it) was, "Hamas does not want peace. It wants all Jews dead." That was what I meant when I likened it to a "blood libel". And once again, it is just not true.

It is as much a lie as it would be to claim that the Israeli government wants to kill all Palestinians, or that the Irgun or the Stern Gang, when they were trying to establish Israel, wanted to kill all British people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:23 PM

Actually, Netanyahu and the Israeli people are at odds... ight of fact, Netanyahu is out of touch with 99.999% of the planet...

If he sucks US into a war then it's our bad... He has all but telegraphed that that is 100% about what he is trying to do...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:52 PM

"This loaded word 'minority' wants its hash settled.

Criminals are a *minority* of society: so what does Don T think we should do? Abolish the police and let them get on with it because thy are just a *minority*?

It was a *minority* who destroyed the twin Towers on 9/11; I mean - count them: 4 - two for each tower. So that's all right, eh, Don? How much smaller a *minority* could you have?

Even if it was a *minority* firing rockets from Gaza [which it isn't; it's the elected govt as Keith so rightly points out], would that mean the resultant missiles didn't matter? Only a *minority* firing them, so let 'em come?
"

I needed to think about this before answering, but here goes Mike.

There have been combined rocket and mortar attacks (according to Wiki) totalling 12,791 in the twelve years 2001 to 2012, which is a yearly total of 1066 to the nearest whole rocket.

Even if it took ten men per rocket, and assuming that it is a trained and established group doing the firing, that amounts to 10,660 men involved, which, I am fairly certain will be a serious over estimate of the real number.

I am sure Mike that you will have to agree that, even adding in the whole of the Hamas government, who order or at least condone these acts, we still have a tiny minority of the 1.7 million population, less than one percent.

It beggars belief that Israeli air strikes haven't killed large numbers of innocent civilians, just based on the law of averages, and it is no excuse to say that militants were using them as shields.

Unless they are caught red handed prepping rockets or manning mortars, a pilot cannot possibly be sure who he is shooting, and Israeli commanders have stated that they consider civilian police to be combatants, though how they justify the large number of dead women and children..........? But of course they simply dispute and deny any figures other than the ones produced by their own side, which by reason of distance are least likely to be accurate.

Lastly "Criminals are a *minority* of society: so what does Don T think we should do? Abolish the police and let them get on with it because thy are just a *minority*?"

NO! But I wouldn't indiscriminately arrest large numbers of the innocent majority, just because I could, either. That comment, with respect, is unworthy of a man of your intelligence.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 02:02 AM

Don: Your reply re my animadversions of your claims re a 'minority' is absurd. The actual fighting army in any conflict, the people priming and organising the firing of the weapons and then doing it, is always the minority. Of course it is. But, in a war situation, they can only succeed if they have the support of the population as a whole, or of the vast majority thereof. Do you honestly believe that there in Gaza the population in general, who elected Hamas for the express purpose of firing these missiles into Israel. now wish they would stop it; or would not vote for them again if they went back for re-election? Oh, come on! They might not like all the consequences of their choice and their government's subsequent and present activities, but that is another thing.

I do not disagree with many of the points you are making. But your claim that only a 'minority' is involved in actually shooting the bloody rockets, and represent only themselves in doing so, is manifestly absurd. You really should give this point more consideration, and not reply so absurdly again. You are only undermining your own more valid points by such emotive use of the word. I repeat: you are not a fool; but your use in this tendentious sense of 'minority' is certainly foolish.

Regards

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:33 AM

DonAnd Israel does, violently and without concern for the people of Gaza.
Suggest non violent alternatives.
Negotiation has failed (often)

I do not believe propaganda of either side.
I have only used established fact in argument, or shown that events are disputed.
Do not deny that without an example.
I have frequently commented on the gullibility of the anti Israel brigade who believe everything claimed by Israel's enemies.

I accept that Gazans are terrified too, but only when Israel finally strikes back, and only if Hamas launches or stores missiles next to their house.

The Maqui only attacked military targets.
Gaza is not occupied or starved.
There is no moral or legal justification for the indiscriminate attacks on ordinary Jewish and Arab families by Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:46 AM

""Do you honestly believe that there in Gaza the population in general, who elected Hamas for the express purpose of firing these missiles into Israel. now wish they would stop it; or would not vote for them again if they went back for re-election?""

Do you really believe that the ordinary non involved men, women and children of Gaza are all terrorists, while the killers of the Israeli IDF are all knights in shining armour, fighting evil.
It had never occurred to me that you could be that naive.

I do not concur with your claim that Hamas was elected for the express purpose of firing rockets.

That is more absurd than anything I have said, or or even dreamed of saying.

The vast majority of Gazans would just like Israel to piss off and mind its own turnip patch, so that they could come out of the rubble and start to rebuild their homes which have been indiscriminately flattened by air strikes.

Israel is, however, on the verge of making every Palestinian an implacable enemy IMHO, and they will pay dearly and come out at the other end as a genocidal pariah.

I note that you didn't have the good grace to acknowledge my response to your other absurd accusation.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM

""There is no moral or legal justification for the indiscriminate attacks on ordinary Jewish and Arab families by Hamas.""

When are you going to admit that there is no moral or legal justification for the actions of Israel over a twelve year period.

Neither side is free of guilt, and the sooner the West stops supporting Israel's unruly teenager act, the better.

This cannot be sorted out with guns, and the West should by now be stepping in and slapping both sides down till they get round a table and TALK.

Instead, the Israelis peep out from behind the skirts of big Uncle Sam and say "Yah Boo, you can't tell me what to do, 'cos my uncle will bash you.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:26 AM

I do not concur with your claim that Hamas was elected for the express purpose of firing rockets.

That is more absurd than anything I have said, or or even dreamed of saying.


That is something else you are ignorant of then Don.
Like your belief that Israel restricts food into Gaza.
Hamas made it very clear to the Gazan people they they would attack and make war aginst Israel.

McG, you do not believe that Hamas wants to kill Jews.
I hope you do not deny that other Jihadists openly advocate exactly that.
Hamas' missiles are just Jew killers.
That is all they do, and all they are intended to do.
It does not matter if a few Arabs are also killed by them as long as more Jews die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:30 AM

When are you going to admit that there is no moral or legal justification for the actions of Israel over a twelve year period.

Because I have yet to be convinced Don.
Give some specific deed that is unequivocally immoral or illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:57 AM

In any kind of armed conflict there is the intention of killing people on the other side, and for Hamas these will be Israelis, as for the IDF it means killing Palestinians. But that is a very different matter from intending to kill "all Jews", or "all Palestinians" - and that is the claim which you made.

Did the Allies really intend to kill "all Germans" in World War II? Did the Zionists who blew up the David Hotel really have an ambition of kiling all British people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:05 AM

"Last week, the principal Palestinian Authority religious leader, the Mufti Muhammad Hussein, presented the killing of Jews by Muslims as a religious Islamic goal. At an event celebrating the 47th anniversary of the founding of Fatah, he cited the Hadith (Islamic tradition attributed to Muhammad) saying that the Hour of Resurrection will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them:

    "The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews.
    The Jew will hide behind stones or trees.
    Then the stones or trees will call:
    'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/itamar-marcus-and-nan-jacques-zilberdik/palestinian-mufti-muslims-destiny-is-to-kill-jews/


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:22 AM

It would be impossible to get more genocidal than in some parts of the Old Testament. But to use that as evidence that all Jews (or Christians) werre dedicated to wiping out members of other religions would be to distort the truth.

Demonising the people you see as the enemy should never be the way to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM

Actually this is not what I said:

"Actually I disagree with Stringsinger where he/she suggests that those firing rockets from Gaza are doing something that is ever going to "stop the settlements, the appropriation of land, the control of checkpoints, the military abuse".

What I said was that whether Hamas fires rockets or not, this is irrelevant to the hegemonic designs of Israel and the evidence now is the Pillar Of Cloud Operation and the expansion of settlements.

"Mufti Muhammad Hussein, presented the killing of Jews by Muslims as a religious Islamic goal."

OK, here's the problem with that. We have preachers in the US who want to burn the Koran but this doesn't reflect the view of the entire population. Same is true with Israel and Palestinians.

Keith, the Pillar of Cloud assault defies international law. It's immoral and dangerous,making Israel the leading danger to world peace in the eyes of the rest of the world, US excluded.

Netanyahu is a right-wing propagandist who is the Mitt Romney of Israel except that he is somewhat popular there among Jewish hot heads. Hamas is also a reactionary organization and like Netanyahu was elected democratically.

Firing rockets into Israel should never be excused but the retaliatory reaction of Israel is highly out of proportion to what has taken place.

Actually, Israel and Palestinians are sometimes represented by crazies on both sides.

The problem is that the US has hegemonic designs and this is why they are supporting Israel over the Palestinians. Israel and the US are leading military exponents. BTW
the Caterpillar tractors that are tearing down Palestinian homes are made in the USA.

The reaction of Israel to the firing of rockets is highly disproportional to what Hamas is doing even as Hamas actions are inexcusable but understandable. There is a provision in the UN law that says an invaded country has the right to protect itself. Israel is acting highly out of proportion. Hamas is not.

The solution is not being brought about by American foreign policy who sides with Israeli aggression and expansion. The Palestinian's plight is virtually ignored by American media.

There is never a decent justification for killing in war which is my view.
This is a topic for another thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM

Stringsinger, there is no expansion of settlements in Gaza; the settlers were forced out by IDF.
There is no appropriation of land.
The reaction of Israel to the firing of rockets is highly disproportional to what Hamas is doing even as Hamas actions are inexcusable but understandable.
Not understandable by me.
If they stopped doing it, all this would never happen.

"Disproportionate" ?
The current operation is not intended as some kind of punishment.
It is only intended to stop the rockets.
It has not been disproportionate enough to stop them yet, but at least they are reduced.

McG, do you deny that at least some Jihadists are committed to the extermination of Jews?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:39 PM

McG, the bombs dropped on Germany, and the munitions being used against the rockets, are not anti-personnel.
The former were explosive or incendiary with no added shrapnel.

Hamas' rockets carry nails and ball-bearings instead of extra explosive.
They are just for killing Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:47 PM

This is from Wiki, but is widely reported.
In a public address broadcast on Hamas's Al-Aqsa TV channel on 5 November 2010 (as translated by MEMRI) al-Zahar appeared to justify the persecution of Jews down the ages and to promise that the Jews were destined to be annihilated. Al-Zahar stated that "We are no weaker or less honorable than the peoples that expelled and annihilated the Jews. The day we expel them is drawing near... We extended our hands to feed these hungry dogs and wild beasts, and they devoured our fingers. We have learned the lesson – there is no place for you among us, and you have no future among the nations of the world. You are headed to annihilation." [5]

[edit] Incitement controversyDuring the 2008-2009 Gaza War in which it is estimated that 1,200 or more Palestinians (of whom 412 were children and a hundred were women) and 13 Israelis died,[6] al-Zahar, during a television broadcast, was reported to have said that the Israelis "have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine... They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people."[7] This remark was widely reported as advocating the "murder" of Jewish children worldwide


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 02:03 PM

The document(Hamas Covenant) also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews, without distinction of whether they are in Israel or elsewhere.[26] It presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:59 PM

You're suggesting that carpet bombing in the war was not directly intended to kill noncombatants in enormous numbers, Keith?

It was a horrible thing in a horrible war. Horrible things happen in all horrible wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:49 AM

I agree your last sentence, but not the first.
The bombs were HE and incendiary, not anti-personnel.
The people received enough warning to take shelter in plenty of time.
The effects of the fire storm were not predicted.

Of course it was a human catastrophe and people died in thousands, but the aim was destruction not death

The aim of Hamas bombs is death not destruction, or they would be just HE without the nails and ball-bearings.
They are launched only to kill and terrorise Jews, in furtherance of they covenant to kill Jews everywhere.

You are in denial about Hamas.
You make excuses.
They do not mean what they say.
Yes they do, and their actions bear it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:42 AM

I commend to any would-be future poster on this site this morning's article on The Times op-ed page by Amir Taheri ['an Iranian-born ... author based in Europe' - wiki; well-known authority on the politics of the region], analysing the fissiparous nature of the various Hamas factions in Gaza, & those in the Arab world in general, in the context of the present situation there. Essential reading, I should say, to qualify anyone to make informed contribution to this thread.

~M~

NB Mr Taheri's origin & antecedents, BTW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:44 AM

""The bombs were HE and incendiary, not anti-personnel.""

I'd really love to hear your explanation of the thousands of shrapnel scarred buildings In London, Liverpool, Coventry,........

Need I go on?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:48 AM

Damn. Didn't finish.

The bombs that caused those scars were also HE, with highly fragmentable steel casings.

They didn't only scar buildings.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM

were explosive or incendiary with no added shrapnel.
Just the case, and as thin as possible to allow more HE for maximum blast.
No nails or ball bearings added.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:56 AM

Transferred from the other thread which was started for a different purpose.

I have no sympathy whatever for the intransigence displayed on both sides.

I just hate and despise the "Israel is in the right, can do no wrong and must not be criticised for any action, however disproportionate" blether we get whenever this subject comes up, from the hard wired little Israeli apologist cadre.

If we can't recognise that BOTH ARE EQUALLY GUILTY of crimes against humanity, how in hell can we expect them tpo realise and come to their senses.

SOMEBODY has to STOP!

The side that does so will gain immensely.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM

I could be wrong about bomb casings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:34 AM

The side that does so(stop) will gain immensely.

If Hamas stops, both sides will gain immensely.
If Israel stops, Hamas can just launch its Jew killing missiles with impunity.
Perhaps Israel should stop providing shelters and anti-missiles to make their job easier.
Perhaps they should just line up at the border to allow themselves to be executed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:12 AM

Interesting to see the usual suspects describing themselves as middle-of-the-road while taking their usual position on the extreme right.

"I commend to any would-be future poster on this site this morning's article on The Times"
I read The Times report with interest – if it is to be believed it helps to underline the fact that you couldn't squeeze a credit card between the bigotry and ruthlessness of the two regimes.
Unfortunately it doesn't quite tie up with many of the facts surrounding the present conflict.

History of present violence:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/

Nor does it mention what has to be the overlying cause of the conflict – the long-term blockade of goods essential for the day-to-day existence of the Palestinians, and the proposal to escalate that action by calculating just how far can the 'forbidden goods' .   

"Gaza is not occupied or starved."
The repetition of this piece of nonsense only serves to show it for the piece of distortion it is – Palestine is being deprived of the right to feed itself and the Israelis are in the process of measuring exactly how far they are able to go without causing mass starvation.
The process of blockading Gaza began in 1991; rockets attacks into Israel as retaliation didn't begin until 2001 – 10 years later.
http://www.myaguarnieri.com/2011/07/when-did-the-israeli-blockade-of-gaza-begin/

Rockets will stop when blockade is lifted
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/18/gaza-hamas-israel-demands/1712561/

The Palestinian authorities would be insane to give in to Israeli demands now without first achieving an end to the blockade and to the expansionist policy of a government which has chosen as a running-mate in the forthcoming election, a party which believes itself to have a millennium-old god-given right to all the territory in dispute.
Among the first victims of the present violence was a tenement block – 22 dead, mostly women and children. The first reported Palestinian casualty figure was 43 dead, 382 injured (245 adults, 137 children).
So far – 3 Israeli dead.
The Israelis also attacked 2 dwellings being used by the press - getting rid of the witnesses so they can give a repeat performance of Shatila and Sabra.
As somebody rightly puts it
"No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:17 AM

The last reported casualty Palestinian figures figures are somewhere between 60 and 84, again mostly non combatants
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:21 AM

The blood of every one of the Palestinian casualties is squarely on the hands of Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM

The process of blockading Gaza began in 1991; rockets attacks into Israel as retaliation didn't begin until 2001 – 10 years later.


Not sure how accurate this statement is...


BTW, WHY is Israel so bad, when the EGYPTIAN border is right there? Do Palestinians prefer Kosher food? They have NO problem getting arms and missiles in- WHY would they be starving UNLESS they wanted to KILL JEWS more than to FEED THEIR CHILDREN???


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

"The blood of every one of the Palestinian casualties is squarely on the hands of Hamas.
The feller wot pulls the trigger is responsible for the killing despite the claims of "nuffin to do wiv me guv"
It is the Israelis who are slaughtering men women and children at preset (take a peep at the television tonight - quicker than starving them to death I suppose!
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the politics, there can be no excuse for the slaughter of children - you obviously don't agree
"Not sure how accurate this statement is..."
Then prove its inaccuracy
As I (no - Keith) rightly said - "No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back" or are you also claiming that 10% of malnutrition among Palestinian children either isn't happening or should be ignored?
The first person I ever heard describe the Israeli regime as "fascist" was a Mancunian Jew who had lost many of her relatives to the Holocaust. I thought she was overstating her case - it seems I was wrong.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:47 PM

There is no question whatsoever that the bombing campaigns by both the British and Germans was largely directed to terrorising the civilian population. The hundreds of thousands killed were not accidental victims or "collateral damage" - they werte the intended targete.

"Allied air bosses have made the long awaited decision to adopt deliberate terror bombing of great German population centres as a ruthless expedient to hasten Hitler's doom." From an Associated Press correspondent's cable following a press conference following the Dresden raid in February 1945

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed...." From a telegram sent by Winston Churchill to military Chiefs of Staff on March 28th 1945.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,UN watcher
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:25 PM

The Humanitarian Situation in Gaza
November 18, 2012

Crossings
1. Israel is making a major effort to maintain the fabric of civilian life in Gaza, despite the situation of current hostilities. The IDF opened today the Kerem Shalom crossing for movement of food, medicine and other goods from Israel despite the ongoing rocket attacks on the Israeli population and previous attacks on the crossing.

2. The Erez crossing was open today, as on every other day of Operation Pillar of Defense. Seventy foreign journalists entered Gaza today by way of Erez. Twenty Gazans entered Israel for medical treatment, and twenty-three foreign nationals, representing NGOs who until now had been prevented by Hamas from leaving the Gaza Strip, departed.

Food and Housing Security
1. Gaza is not experiencing food scarcity. Israel is not blocking entrance of goods into Gaza, except for weaponry and dual-use materials. Construction materials can be imported to Gaza under the supervision of international organizations.

2. Israel is continuing the yearly supply of five million cubic meters (1,320,860,250 gallons) of water to Gaza, despite the rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns.

3. UNRWA (UN Relief and Works Agency) reports (17.11.12) that despite some displacement of families due to hostilities, "there hasn't been any need to provide emergency humanitarian assistance or to open UNRWA facilities as emergency shelters."

Medical Care
1. Between January – October 2012, approximately 14,500 patients and their accompanying chaperones entered Israel from Gaza for medical treatment. 99% of the medical requests by Palestinian residents of Gaza were approved by Israel.

2. The World Health Organization has reported a ten-day slowdown in referral process for Gaza patients due to disagreements between the Ramallah and Gaza Health Ministries.

3. Gaza hospitals are currently operating at 80% capacity (17.11), slightly higher than routine periods.

4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.

5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority.

6. UNRWA reports that all of its 21 health centers are open and functioning. Of UNRWA's 12,000 staff members in Gaza, only one person has sustained injuries in the hostilities, and those are minor.

Electricity
1. Israel is supplying 125 megawatts of electricity to the Gaza Strip from the power station in Ashkelon despite the rocket attacks on Israel's population, and on Ashkelon itself.

2. Gaza continues to suffer from power outages due to a deliberate policy of Hamas, which opposes import of fuel from Israel. As a result, the Gaza power station is operating at 20% capacity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

Yes, well that ought to be a clinching post from UN Observer, which seems firmly based on actuality. But I don't expect it will stop the usual barrage of negative comments from Uno-Hoo & Yoozhal-Susp...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:34 PM

The last reported casualty Palestinian figures figures are somewhere between 60 and 84, again mostly non combatants
Reported by who Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:05 PM

Keith, maybe you better take a look at this.

Flatten Gaza/Gilad Sharon

All you need to do is see pictures of the latest "Pillar of Cloud Operation" and then tell me
that the fraudulent UN Watcher data is correct.

This is genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

Two can play at this game Stringsinger

Hamas: Kill Christians and Jews "to the last one"

"Allah, oh our Lord, vanquish Your enemies, enemies of the religion
[Islam] in all places.
Allah, strike the Jews and their sympathizers,
the Christians and their supporters,
the Communists and their adherents.
Allah, count them and kill them to the last one, and don't leave even one."

Kill Christians and Jews

This is genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:31 AM

I believe UN Watcher.
It is not genocide.
Yes, there are many and terrible deaths of innocents in Gaza.
Israel is targeting missiles and missilemen.
Israel gains nothing by killing civilians. Each death harms them.
They have every incentive to avoid killing civilians.
The militants have a propaganda victory every time a civilian is killed.
They have every incentive to fake them, exaggerate them, and to put children in harms way.
Be critical and suspicious of what BOTH sides say.
You gullible people swallow everything the Jihadists claim without question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:18 AM

"I believe UN Watcher."
As he?she took the information straight from The Jerusalem Post, I have no doubt that you do, unbiased little chappie that you are!

"Reported by who Jim?"
Don't suppose for a second that you'll acknowledge any of these as anything but "lies", but plenty more to choose from - The Times, The Guardian, The BBC....

"In all, 87 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, have been killed in the six-day onslaught and 720 have been wounded."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57551631/israels-assault-on-palestinian-militants-in-gaza-takes-rising-toll-on-civilians/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CbsNewsTheEarlyShowParenting+(CBS+News%3A+The+Early+Show%3A+Parenting)

"In all, 87 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, have been killed in the six-day onslaught and 720 have been wounded."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/19/israel-gaza-conflict-2012-civilian-casualties_n_2157437.html

"Day Six of Israeli Attack on Gaza: Death toll rises to 115, over 900 injured; Media building targeted again; Cease-fire talks continue"
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/day-six-of-israeli-attack-on-gaza-death-toll-rises-to-115-over-900-injured-media-building-targeted-again-cease-fire-talks-continue.html

"In total, Sunday's air strikes on Gaza killed nine children ranging in age from one to 11, according to figures provided by al-Kidra."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/11/18/israel-widens-operation-in-gaza.html

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM

UN Watcher got his info. from this Humanitarian Information site.
http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/humanitarian-situation-gaza-18-nov-2012?utm_source=feedburner&utm_med

All those casualty reports are sourced from Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:50 AM

"All those casualty reports are sourced from Hamas."
Now why did I know you were going to say that!!!

http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/ongoing-israeli-offensive-gaza-palestinian-civilian-deaths-0

Have a nice day
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM

The info was originally from an Israeli Government report, and picked up by the Aid and Relief sites.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Humanitarian_situation_Gaza_18-Nov-2012.htm


Before you sneer, Israel would not be so stupid as to humiliate itself with a lie that would be immediately obvious to every aid worker and journalist in Gaza.

The fact that you are unable to believe the truth shows that your judgement of Israel is false.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:12 AM

So what you are sayng is that you can only rely on information (from the same source) that suits your own particular prejudice
Sorry - I'll try to remember that!
Really must go - busy day!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:18 AM

No.
I am saying that the Israeli info would be immediately seen to be a lie by those on the ground if not true.
It would not be repeated by the aid organisations if not true.
That gives me reason to believe it.

Hamas has every incentive to exaggerate civilian casualties and minimise its own.
It did just that last time.
That gives me good reason to doubt.

No gullible dupe me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:23 AM

Friendly warning, Jim. You are making a manifest fool of yourself again. Any more of that and you shall not go to the ball!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:41 AM

The military air and sea attack on Gaza [ itself a city of refugees and the children and grandchildren of refugees ] is a disgusting international war crime.

For six years its population of 1.6 millon has been beseiged by Istrael...a state armed and backed by the USA and the UK.

The economic blockade has meant that Israel has controlled in a most brutal way the movement of Palestinians, food, water, medicines and other basic essentials.

Four years ago Israel launched a savage attack on the city which killed 1400, mainly civilans and including over 300 Palestinian children. Nothing was safe from its savagery...schools, colleges, hospitals, clinics , apartment blocks, houses and a United Nations shelter were all blown up or attacked. Whole family groups were murdered by Israeli soldiers.

We are now seeing the latest round of the ongoing suffering of the Palestinian people.Once again Israeli fanatics are murdering at will ...babies, children ,teenagers.It does not Seem to matter to them.

The response of Obama in America and Hague and Cameron in the UK has been shameful.

Join the mass protest in central London next saturday which wll call for a halt to the atack and an end to the economic and military blockade of Gaza.
Ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:19 AM

A good source for links to ongoing events in Palestine:

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:41 AM

""I could be wrong about bomb casings.""

Indeed you could, and you are.

And not only about the casings.

You state categorically that the purpose of the bombs was destruction, not killing.

Now, what exactly do you think happens within the blast radius of a 2000 lb high explosive bomb?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:45 AM

""Perhaps Israel should stop providing shelters and anti-missiles to make their job easier.
Perhaps they should just line up at the border to allow themselves to be executed.
""

I won't bother to dignify that nonsensical, emotional crap with a response.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:01 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger - PM
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:05 PM

Keith, maybe you better take a look at this.

Flatten Gaza/Gilad Sharon

All you need to do is see pictures of the latest "Pillar of Cloud Operation" and then tell me
that the fraudulent UN Watcher data is correct.

This is genocide.
""

Damn right String.

The comments from Sharon and even more those of the Deputy Prime Minister are worthy of the worst of this planet's historical tyrants (avoiding the most obvious comparison).

These two are monsters without conscience.

Keith and Bobad, your assertions about Israel's honourable intent are seriously off beam.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM

""Yes, there are many and terrible deaths of innocents in Gaza.
Israel is targeting missiles and missilemen.
Israel gains nothing by killing civilians. Each death harms them.
They have every incentive to avoid killing civilians.
The militants have a propaganda victory every time a civilian is killed.
They have every incentive to fake them, exaggerate them, and to put children in harms way.
Be critical and suspicious of what BOTH sides say.
You gullible people swallow everything the Jihadists claim without question.""

1. Israel obviously doesn't give a shit about dead Palestinian civilians, even according to their Deputy Prime Minister.

2. Israel has not, for many years, given a shit for World opinion.

3. You gullible people swallow everything the Israelis claim without question. We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault.

So your last sentence in its entirety is A DAMN LIE!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:49 AM

1. Israel obviously doesn't give a shit about dead Palestinian civilians, even according to their Deputy Prime Minister.

Yes it does, even according to him.

2. Israel has not, for many years, given a shit for World opinion.
Yes it does. It relies on Western support.

3. You gullible people swallow everything the Israelis claim without question. We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault.

I have never accepted anything without good reason.

So your last sentence in its entirety is A DAMN LIE!
No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:14 AM

"The economic blockade has meant that Israel has controlled in a most brutal way the movement of Palestinians, food, water, medicines and other basic essentials."


This is obviously from a bigot who hates Israel. LOOKING AT A MAP ( Which seems beyond many here) THERE IS A BORDER WITH EGYPT. Since the Palestinians can bring in ( large) missiles, the Israelis OBVIOUSLY do not control any more than their own border.

When I see the condemnation of Egypt for it's "most brutal way " of controlling "the movement of Palestinians, food, water, medicines and other basic essentials." I will consider someone like Don T saying "We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault." as something other than a malicious lie to support his blatant bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM

1. Israel obviously doesn't give a shit about dead Palestinian civilians, even according to their Deputy Prime Minister.

This from Israel's Deputy Minister For Foreign Affairs.
(Guardian)
In the face of this undeniable truth, the usual accusation is that Israel is responding with "disproportionate force" or carrying out "collective punishment". I urge all who make this accusation to consider that Israel has successfully targeted in excess of 1,300 weapons caches, rocket launchers and other elements of Hamas's terrorist infrastructure. Yet despite this, the number of Palestinian casualties remains around one for every 13 strikes, the majority killed being active members of Hamas and combatants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,UN watcher
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:11 AM

Hamas has posted photographs from other conflicts on social media in recent days, claiming they are victims of Israeli actions in Gaza.

On Thursday, the Izzadin Kassam tweeted a photograph of a weeping father with his dead, bloody child in his arms, while doctors look on.

Soon after, Twitter followers pointed out that the photo was taken at the Dar al-Shifa Hospital in Aleppo, Syria, and originally came from a slideshow on The Guardian website.

Izzadin Kassam deleted the tweet, but it was immortalized in screencaps posted on Facebook and Twitter.

On Saturday, pro-Palestinian activists co-opted another photograph, this time of an injured infant held by a rescue worker.

A Twitter user named ProSyriana wrote "even this young injured Palestinian child doesn't seem surprised or scared, used to Israeli terrorism."

However, Facebook and Twitter users identified the photo as one previously posted by Avital Leibovitch, the IDF spokeswoman to the international media, of a baby wounded by a Hamas rocket attack.

A graphic shared dozens of times on Facebook also said that the rescue worker's reflective vest said "Kiryat Malachi" on it.

"It's quite egregious," Jewish Agency director of new media Avi Mayer said of the two incidents. "One can expect little else from an organization that prides itself on lies. Deception is [Hamas's] way of life."

Mayer said such false captions on photos are not a new phenomenon and did not come as a surprise to social media experts, explaining that the truth is the best way to combat lies.

"Other pro-Israel social media users did an excellent job," he stated.

"Using online research tools to dig into history and reveal the truth is very effective."

"Obviously, Hamas has banked on the idea that a lie can reach halfway around the world before the truth can catch up to it," Natalie Menaged, director of education for Hasbara Fellowships, said.

Menaged said image search tools have made it easy to verify a picture's authenticity in minutes, and many individuals have taken it upon themselves to do so and indentify false reports.

"While we have to be vigilant about anti-Israel propaganda online, it's even more important for us to spread trustful information.

In particular, we should focus on spreading personal stories, photos and pictures of Israelis under fire," she added.

Mayer said that CNN's Anderson Cooper recently apologized for using footage in which a person who appeared to be dead was "not quite as dead a few moments later," the Jewish Agency representative quipped.

"It's commendable when news organizations are able to correct early impressions," Mayer said, adding that he hopes others will follow suit.

"Truth is often the first casualty in those situations," Mayer explained, "and it's our responsibility to bring it back to life. I'm proud to be part of that effort."

-Jerusalem Post


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

Kuhlood Badawi, an information and media coordinator for OCHA, the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, posted a link to the picture of a young girl covered in blood being carried by her father, along with the tweet: "Palestine is bleeding. Another child killed by #Israel... Another father carrying his child to a Grave in #Gaza."

The picture, it emerged, was published in 2006 by Reuters and was of a Palestinian girl who died in an accident unrelated to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:32 AM

"Obviously, Hamas has banked on the idea that a lie can reach halfway around the world before the truth can catch up to it,"

Amply illustrated here at the Mudcat Café.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 10:26 AM

"Israel gains nothing by killing civilians. Each death harms them.
They have every incentive to avoid killing civilians."

That is generally true in all wars - but it doesn't stop it happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM

""Don T saying "We repeatedly dispute both sides arguments and freely admit both are at fault." as something other than a malicious lie to support his blatant bigotry.""

Almost every post I have made on this subject, both here and on other threads, has been a direct rebuttal of some one eyed blinkered assertion that Israel has never harmed anyone and all Gaza's Palestinian citizens are de facto terrorists. and all through I have had to repeat for the benefit of those same one eyed, blinkered Israeli apologists that I do in fact deplore the actions of those firing the rockets,.....just as much as I deplore the disproportionate and indiscriminate response.

And you have the goddam nerve to call me bigotted.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM

I very rarely do cut 'n paste, but this strikes me as being the only way to put it under the noses of those who don't follow links to anything that might disturb their smug certainties. So here goes.

- snip - ""Four of the deaths occurred as a result of Israeli military firing artillery shells on youngsters playing soccer. Moreover, 52 civilians had been wounded, of which six were women and 12 were children. (Since we began composing this text, the Palestinian death toll has risen, and continues to rise.)

Articles that do report on the killings overwhelmingly focus on the killing of Palestinian security personnel. For example, an Associated Press article published in the CBC world news on November 13, entitled 'Israel mulls resuming targeted killings of Gaza militants,' mentions absolutely nothing of civilian deaths and injuries. It portrays the killings as 'targeted assassinations.' The fact that casualties have overwhelmingly been civilians indicates that Israel is not so much engaged in "targeted" killings, as in "collective" killings, thus once again committing the crime of collective punishment.

Another AP item on CBC news from November 12 reads 'Gaza rocket fire raises pressure on Israel government.' It features a photo of an Israeli woman gazing on a hole in her living room ceiling. Again, no images, nor mention of the numerous bleeding casualties or corpses in Gaza. Along the same lines, a BBC headline on November 12 reads 'Israel hit by fresh volley of rockets from Gaza.' Similar trends can be illustrated for European mainstream papers.

News items overwhelmingly focus on the rockets that have been fired from Gaza, none of which have caused human casualties. What is not in focus are the shellings and bombardments on Gaza, which have resulted in numerous severe and fatal casualties. It doesn't take an expert in media science to understand that what we are facing is at best shoddy and skewed reporting, and at worst willfully dishonest manipulation of the readership.
"" - snip -


-snip - ""An extract of a report sent by a Canadian medic who happened to be in Gaza and helped out in Shifa hospital ER over the weekend says: "the wounded were all civilians with multiple puncture wounds from shrapnel: brain injuries, neck injuries, hemo-pneumo thorax, pericardial tamponade, splenic rupture, intestinal perforations, slatted limbs, traumatic amputations.

All of this with no monitors, few stethoscopes, one ultrasound machine. …. Many people with serious but non life threatening injuries were sent home to be re-assessed in the morning due to the sheer volume of casualties. The penetrating shrapnel injuries were spooky. Tiny wounds with massive internal injuries. …

There was very little morphine for analgesia."

Apparently such scenes are not newsworthy for the New York Times, the CBC, or the BBC.

Bias and dishonesty with respect to the oppression of Palestinians is nothing new in Western media and has been widely documented. Nevertheless, Israel continues its crimes against humanity with full acquiescence and financial, military and moral support from our governments, the U.S., Canada and the EU.

Netanyahu is currently garnering Western diplomatic support for additional operations in Gaza, which makes us worry that another Cast Lead may be on the horizon. In fact, the very recent events are confirming such an escalation has already begun, as today's death-count climbs.

The lack of widespread public outrage at these crimes is a direct consequence of the systematic way in which the facts are withheld and/or of the skewed way these crimes are portrayed.

We wish to express our outrage at the reprehensible media coverage of these acts in the mainstream (corporate) media.

We call on journalists around the world working for corporate media outlets to refuse to be instruments of this systematic policy of disguise. We call on citizens to inform themselves through independent media, and to voice their conscience by whichever means is accessible to them.

Hagit Borer, U.K.
Antoine Bustros, Canada
Noam Chomsky, U.S.
David Heap, Canada
Stephanie Kelly, Canada
Máire Noonan, Canada
Philippe Prévost, France
Verena Stresing, France
Laurie Tuller, France
"" - snip -

And those signatories don't look like a who's who of bigotted Palestinian apologists to me.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:12 PM

Particular attention to the report of the Canadian medic, who was in Gaza by chance, and spent the weekend in Shifa Hospital ER.

What axe would he have to grind by lying?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:42 PM

We do know that civilians have been killed and wounded Don.
Inevitable when Hamas illegally sites its weapons and fighters among them.
Why does Gaza have thousands of missiles but no medicines?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:20 PM

DonT,

So you acknowledge that HAMAS is guilty of war crimes, in siting weapons in civilian homes, hospitals, and schools?

Have you thought about calling for THEM to stop?

I see ONLY criticism of Israel until we ask, then you say that you object to both sides. When you start mentioning the facts that the Palestinians are treated far better by the Israelis than they were by the Jordanians ( from 1948 to 1967) and that Egypt has a border with Gaza, and if Gazan's are starving it is equally EGYPT'S fault, you might be considered less of a bigot.



And why should the border for the two state solution NOT be the last one accepted by the Arabs, from 1924 or so? The 77% of the Mandate territory the Arabs were given was in proportion to the ENTIRE Moslem population- and JEWS were forbidden to settle in the Arab portion.

And why should the Palestinians get any land or compensation for their 640,000 refugees from the formation of Israel when the 820,000 Jews who were driven from Arab nations got nothing?

Look at the number of Arab Moslems who stayed in Israel, and the number of Jews allowed to remain in Arab nations- WHO WOULD YOU SAY conducted the ethnic cleansing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:43 AM

And remember that the Arab 'refugees' were not expelled by the Israelis, but told to get out of the way for the time being in 1948 to give the invading Muslim-nation forces who invaded with the purpose of destroying the new state which the United Nations had authorised; but as they failed the departed Palestinians had nowhere to come back to, which was the fault of the Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians et al, not of the Israelis.

~M~

[cross-ref to my simultaneous post on the 'Israeli Leaders Arseholes' thread]


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:04 PM

"Friendly warning, Jim. You are making a manifest fool of yourself again. Any more of that and you shall not go to the ball!"
Friendly warning back
Once again your hypocrisy is showing - you are paying lip service to objecting at what Israel has become while stolidly batting for them.
Perhaps you'd like to comment on Keith's "it's all lies" stance here - or not?
You both have the reported figures.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:18 PM

DonT,

"
And you have the goddam nerve to call me bigotted.
"

I call it honesty, not nerve.

I judge you by your posts, and the fact that you attack people rather than the facts they present. You apply one set of standards to Israel, and a different one to Hamas- this is bigotry.

When you have one set of standards for both, and debate the facts rather than make personal attacks on those you disagree with, I will no longer state that you are being a bigot- Until then, you will be what you show yourself to be by your own words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM

DonT,

"All of this with no monitors, few stethoscopes, one ultrasound machine. "

Well, if they brought in those supplies instead of rockets and missiles, they would have them, wouldn't they?




And why isn't it EGYPT's fault? THEY have a border with Gaza, too- yet the Palestinians can only use the Israeli border???

Are you saying that the Palestinians are idiots, or that the Egyptians allow even less through- AND YOU KEEP QUIET about that?

YES, I call you bigoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:47 PM

Jim: I am honestly not 'solidly batting' for them; merely trying to get the history of what happened before and just after the Independence of 1948 accurately fixed in the minds of some who really are misrepresenting it, confusing the cause & effect of the refugee situation, &c; and also trying to get a see-both-sides perspective on the Gaza situation which is by no means as cut'n'dried in either direction as some are urging. I yield to no-one, as I have said many times above on this thread and many others [see the 'arseholes' thread too], in my disappointment at the betrayal that has taken place over the last couple of decades of all that we hoped for, & my hatred of the present entity that has resulted thence. I will continue to 'bat' for the just memory of Ben Gurion & Golda Meir ~~ why shouldn't I? ~ but I leave the wicket and refuse to bat on for Begin, Netanyahu, & all that vile lot, who have come along and ploughed up the pitch to make it impossible for me to go on batting. Belief that the establishment of Israel in 1948 promised at the time to be beneficial to the world is not incompatible with the recognition that, alas, that was not the way it turned out. Nor does that latter realisation conflict with the recognition that most of the other states in the region are no great shakes either, and some [try the blasphemer-beheading·thieves-hand-amputating·adultress-publicly-barebottom-caning Saudi for size], a whole bloody lot worse.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM

Sorry Mike - your destruction of olive groves, as serious as it may have been, pales into insignificance beside the continual mass murder of civilians, which is the subject in hand here and which is what I have chosen to comment on.
Your praising with faint (or non-existent) damns what Israel has become says everything that needs to be said as far as I'm concerned.
I asked your opinion of Keith's continued denial of published figures of the killing of women and children - I got no reply, nor did I expect one - won't waste my typing finger again.
Going by his somewhat clumsy dismissal of all the facts that do not fit his 'grand plan', coupled with his obvious dishonesty, Keith has the excuse of 'having all the lights on with nobody at home'; there was a time I put you higher up the food chain.
If I want advice on not "making a fool of myself" I'm pretty sure I could do better elsewhere.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:18 PM

'Perhaps you'd like to comment on Keith's "it's all lies" stance here - or not?
You both have the reported figures.'
.,,.,.
Sorry, Jim ~~ genuinely missed this, so taken was I with your 'batting' metaphor.

No, I don't think it's all lies. My present position, though you persist in disbelieving it, is that anything said to the detriment of Israel is probably true ~~ except that the Gaza situation is not so simple as so many others [see below] ~~ like olive-groves &c, which you persist for some reason as regarding as a minor, even frivolous, example but seems to me obviously key ~~ this depriving of hardworking people of their means to livelihood because some who have attacked Israel might have hidden there, is particularly & peculiarly indefensible, imo.

You accuse me of not answering key points. I accuse you of the same right back ~~ Why has nobody responded to the entirely accurate statement that Gaza is not under sufficient siege or blockade as to prevent food & medical supplies entering, because it shares a border with Egypt, thru which it has presumably imported its missiles, now long-range enuf for attacking Tel Aviv & Jerusalem. Otherwise how did they get those in, eh smartarse? Did the Israelis not notice those going in, hidden among the food parcels or something? So why can't they bring in some humanitarian supplies and sustenance which the Israelis are supposed to be depriving them of by their blockade that way also?

How about you putting your bat for the Arabs & Muslims down for a second, and finding some answer to that one? Please...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:30 PM

It should be called to everyone's attention that at one time Palestinians and Israelis worked well and peaceably together to produce Joffa oranges, a great culinary specialty. The element that got in the way with this collaboration was the advent of Zionism, a growing intolerant movement that denigrated outsiders.

I'm not attempting to defend Islamic violence here but to point out that
"Pillar of Cloud Operation" or "Cast Lead" was totally insane as an antidote to any lasting peace.

I will go further by saying it is my contention that "religion" is at the bottom of this problem on both sides. If you want me to qualify that by saying "fundamentalist religion", I think that's not easy to do. Israel is becoming a theocracy more and more.

There are Jews in Israel today who decry and protest what Netanyahu, Lieberman and Sharon are saying and doing. You can read about them in Ha'aretz but they will not be covered in U.S. pro-AIPAC media. Check out Uri Avnery and the peace organization,
"Gush Shalom".


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

the continual mass murder of civilians,
There is no murder that I am aware of.
(attempted murder of the bus passengers today)
Keith's continued denial of published figures of the killing of women and children

I have not denied the figures.
The deaths are easily confirmed.
I do suspect that the civilian deaths will prove to have been exaggerated again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:35 PM

"Why has nobody responded to the entirely accurate statement that Gaza is not under sufficient siege or blockade as to prevent food & medical supplies entering"
Possibly for the same reason that nobody has responded to the fact (from reliable sources such as the U.N., the World Health Organisation, and Amnesty International) that it has been reported that there is malnutrition among %10 of Palestinian children.
I try to comment on what I am sure about - your "entirely accurate" statement" runs counter to many other equally "entirely accurate" statements. I have chosen not to comment because, while I tend to have an opinion, I choose not to give it here because I simply don't know for certain.
On the other hand, why have the supporters of Israel not commented on the morality of one people taking control of another people by establishing a blockade in the first place.
You have been given the information that the rocket bombardment was in retaliation to the blockade, which was started 10 years earlier.
The constant claim by pro Israeli supporters is that a cease fire depends on the cessation of the rockets; a Palestinian condition for that cessation is the easing of the blockade - last night's air-raid on Gaza was the worst yet - making who the aggressors?
In the end the allowing through of "food parcels and medical supplies" is a meaningless gesture The blockade stops essential building materials and farming materials getting through, so preventing the rebuilding of homes destroyed by the Israelis, and also preventing the Palestinians from feeding and financing themslves - "we've cut your legs off, but we'll let you have some crutches".
It is the tried and proven ghetto mentality of "isolate and control" as the people putting it into practice here should well know.
I don't belittle the olive groves - I think that with the chemical warfare, mass murder of refugees, blockade, Berlin Wall, destruction of homes, constant humiliation, malnutrition..... things have gone well beyond that.
"How about you putting your bat for the Arabs & Muslims down for a second"
As I said, I choose to comment on the effect on civilians - show where that is not the case.
Am I to gather that you believe they deserve all they get.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:40 PM

But how are the weapons getting in, when the food & stuff can't? Stop havering, please, & answer that simple question.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 05:22 PM

The answer is here.

MFA      Humanitarian Aid      Aid to Palestinians      The humanitarian situation in Gaza 18-Nov-2012


   
The humanitarian situation in Gaza

18 Nov 2012
Israel is making a major effort to maintain the fabric of civilian life in Gaza, despite the situation of current hostilities.
   

   Transfer of patients from Gaza to Israel via the Erez crossing (Photo: COGAT)












Crossings

1. Israel is making a major effort to maintain the fabric of civilian life in Gaza, despite the situation of current hostilities. The IDF today (18 Nov) opened the Kerem Shalom crossing for movement of food, medicine and other goods from Israel despite the ongoing rocket attacks on the Israeli population and previous attacks on the crossing.



The Kerem Shalom crossing opened on Tuesday morning (20 Nov) to allow the transfer of 120 trucks of humanitarian aid. However, when it was targeted by rocket fire from Gaza, the IDF was forced to close the crossing to ensure the safety of all those working at the crossing and passing through it. Only 24 trucks of humanitarian aid managed to make it through the crossings prior to the rocket strikes.


Trucks waiting at Kerem Shalom crossing (Photo: IDF Spokesperson)

2. The Erez crossing was open today (18 Nov), as on every other day of Operation Pillar of Defense. Seventy foreign journalists entered Gaza today by way of Erez, 26 Gazans entered Israel for medical treatment, and 23 foreign nationals, representing NGOs who until now had been prevented by Hamas from leaving the Gaza Strip, departed.


Food and Housing Security

1. Gaza is not experiencing food scarcity. Israel is not blocking entrance of goods into Gaza, except for weaponry and dual-use materials. Construction materials can be imported to Gaza under the supervision of international organizations.

2. Israel is continuing the yearly supply of five million cubic meters (1,320,860,250 gallons) of water to Gaza, despite the rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns.

3. UNRWA (UN Relief and Works Agency) reports (17 Nov 2012) that despite some displacement of families due to hostilities, "there hasn't been any need to provide emergency humanitarian assistance or to open UNRWA facilities as emergency shelters."


Medical Care

1. Between January-October 2012, approximately 14,500 patients and their accompanying chaperones entered Israel from Gaza for medical treatment. 99% of the medical requests by Palestinian residents of Gaza were approved by Israel.

2. The World Health Organization has reported a ten-day slowdown in referral process for Gaza patients due to disagreements between the Ramallah and Gaza Health Ministries.

3. Gaza hospitals are currently operating at 80% capacity (17 Nov), slightly higher than routine periods.

4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.

5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority.

6. UNRWA reports that all of its 21 health centers are open and functioning. Of UNRWA's 12,000 staff members in Gaza, only one person has sustained injuries in the hostilities, and those are minor.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Humanitarian_situation_Gaza_18-Nov-2012.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:14 PM

Palestinian ambassador tells Israeli counterpart: Hamas must go

"The Hamas offices that were destroyed are not important. The real offices are the mosques, which are connected to a widespread network of tunnels. Everything happens underground," the Palestinian ambassador said. "Hamas has no regrets over the destruction in Gaza. On the contrary. Hamas gets a great deal of economic and political benefit from the terrible destruction because of the large donations that will come from the world and the political image of the organization that stands on the front line against Israel."

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/palestinian-ambassador-tells-israeli-counterpart-hamas-must-go.premium-1.479644


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:51 PM

At last, the answer to the question I've been asking all along - "Why was Hamas firing rockets into Israel"

From a Palestinian ambassador: "Hamas gets a great deal of economic and political benefit from the terrible destruction because of the large donations that will come from the world and the political image of the organization that stands on the front line against Israel."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM

""So you acknowledge that HAMAS is guilty of war crimes, in siting weapons in civilian homes, hospitals, and schools?""

No you fool, you can't even manage one sentence without putting words into an opponent's mouth.

I said "I deplore the firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas, just as I deplore the entirely disproportionate response by Israel".

I did not, as you wrongly state, admit anything at all about the siting of those rocket firing points, because I have only the word of the Israeli propaganda machine and a few blinkered, biased, Israeli apologists here on which to base any such admission, and frankly mate you wouldn't get that quality of evidence admitted in any court in Britain.

As for your other points, if you want to go back in history that's OK by me.

Let's do that!

Let's give the Jews a home in Egypt where they started out, and see how that pans out.

My point is that we have a siyuation to deal with here and now, and Ancient History ain't much help.

People are dying now, and that Canadian medic wasn't talking about a weekend fixing up anything BUT CIVILIANS.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:20 AM

That wasn't quite 'the answer' to my question Keith: which, yet again, was - How are the weapons getting in, & why can't they get all their other supplies in that way & so become independent of what crossings the Israelis open?

It is presumably over the Egyptian border, which runs quite a long way alongside the Gaza Strip. But why haven't they been bringing everything in that way all along? And how have the Israelis managed to maintain a blockade when that entry was always available anyhow?

An answer to that one? ~~~ please!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:13 AM

I am sure you are right about the hundreds of tons of ordnance being imported.
I thought this was the most likely explanation for the shortage of medical supplies, even though everyone knew this was coming.

"4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.

5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:58 AM

"But how are the weapons getting in, when the food & stuff can't"
The question was answered long ago in one of the links provided - but one more time.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/21/gaza-tunnels-smuggling/1718265/
As I pointed out - and you and your dummy have consistently ignored, the blockade was facilitated ten years before the bombardment began - in retaliation. What has cement, corrugated sheeting and farming equipment (not to mention all the other goods spitefully put on the banned list) got to do with weaponry?
The list was compiled to inconvenience, humiliate and control - we know all about how that works. What next - yellow stars?

"Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza"
http://www.map-uk.org/files/1050_j3475_map_junedon_a4_4pp_lift_(2).pdf

http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gazas-children-falling-behind-effect-blockade-child-health

"Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel's continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law."
Amnesty International
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:04 AM

Some more "lies" from Amnesty
Jim Carroll

Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.
Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.
The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.
World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:21 AM

Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.
During, but not caused by the blockade.
Medical supplies were never restricted.

And, why do Gazans want to be treated by the Jews they hate so much?
Why not get treatment in Egypt?

and you and your dummy have consistently ignored, the blockade was facilitated ten years before the bombardment began

You suggest the so-called blockade is the cause of the attacks, but it is actually a consequence. The restrictions were only implemented two years after Israel left Gaza, when it was clear that instead of building a "Singapore of the Middle East", Hamas was interested in importing stockpiles of weapons from places like Iran


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:44 AM

"Medical supplies were never restricted."
You continue to deny the evidence put forward - the delays by the Israelis have caused shortages, even deaths.
"The restrictions were only implemented two years after Israel left Gaza"
Restrictions were started ten years before the missiles started - it was pre-planed to manipulate the economy of Palestine - read what you have been given.
Not sure which is worse - a liar or a hypocrite.
NFO
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:55 AM

Exactly, Jim ~~ your link confirms that the weapons are coming in from the Sinai peninsula in Egypt. Just what I've speculated all along. So now tell me, Mr Cleverdick, if they are so starving [which they are not but let that pass to spare your evidently mind-mad-up defective intellect on the matter], then why isn't food coming in the same way? Why can't you bloody well answer that bit if you are such a Mr Knowall?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM

And now answer Keith's equivalent and perfectly reasonable question as to why the sick don't get treatment in Egypt: tho I daresay we could all think of various possible answers to that one.

You're making more & more of a biased booby of yourself, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:20 AM

Forgive them for they do not know of what they speak:

While Hamas fires rockets, Israel delivers food and medicine

Either that or they are blinded by their hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:53 AM

From my previous link:

"In any normal military conflict, Israel would be entirely within its rights to suspend all food shipments, all medical assistance, and all supplies of electricity and water to Gaza until Hamas surrendered, or at least ceased fire. But Israel won't do that. They know full well that Hamas wouldn't be deterred by the suffering of its civilian population. It never is. Even as Israel bombs Gaza, it shows more concern for the people living there than Hamas ever has."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:38 AM

"You're making more & more of a biased booby of yourself, Jim."
And you are making yourself more of a hypocrite
I have in no way defended the actions of either Egypt or Hamas - I have asked you to point out if this is not true - you have failed to respond, as you have on other points (having accused me of just that).
"He hit me as well sir, doesn't wash, neither does your somewhat infantile name -calling bluster.
This is a discussion on the actions of Israel in terrorising and murdering civilians, not on the behaviour of Muslim, or any religiously influenced countries - you want to discuss that, open a thread.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:42 AM

Hillary has brokered a temporary peace deal between Israel and Hamas. As long as Israel maintains its occupational status, there can never be peace.

Keith and MGM are totally misinformed in their appraisal of the situation. It would be great if they could personally spend some time in Gaza and see what's really going on instead of relying on AIPAC and Zionist propaganda. (Are these guys plants?)

Young children are sick and malnourished. Did any Mudcatters see pictures of the attack on Gaza? They speak volumes and shout down the idiotic propaganda from American media.

There is a false equivalency here when you compare Israeli casualties to those of Palestinians.

Hamas firing rockets into Israel is a futile attempt since it only hardens the heart of the reactionaries in Israel, maybe ensuring the reelection of Netanyahu.

It's time for the United Nations to step in and put peacekeepers on the ground of both Israel and Gaza, stop this insane bombing and attack Israeli excuses for being one of the most dangerous war mongers in the world. Israel is not liked throughout the countries of the world for its actions. The U.S. is making a foolhardy alliance with Israel, probably to placate the munitions industry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:51 AM

Stringsinger ~~ I have made no 'appraisal' of any sort of the situation. As you say, I lack the information to attempt any such. All I have done is ask what seems to me a pertinent question, which everybody seems to be intent on avoiding answering ~~ a question which applies equally whether the Gazans are well-nourished or not. I repeat it again below -

The weapons are getting in somehow ~~ presumably via Egypt [a Sinai tunnel has been suggested]. If there is hunger and shortage of medicaments in the Gaza Strip, WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?

How about an answer? Someone? Please?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:07 AM

Don't be too hard on him MtheGM, he's obviously lost the plot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:54 PM

"WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?"
Politics apparently no friend of Fox News, but:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/20/future-gaza-egypt-border-crossing-critical-point-conflict-between-israel-hamas/
It seems litle more than speculation that anything is getting through at present.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM

""5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority."""

Budgetary difficulties like the infrastructure which is currently composed of chunks of concrete which used to be the administration of the Gaza strip.

Nothing to do, of course, with Israeli air strikes and shelling?

How facile your responses are!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM

WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?

Mike, have you ever considered the difference in logistic resources required for bringing in a thousand, say, of those rockets, as compared to food and medical supplies sufficient to have any significant effect on the dietary wellbeing or health of 1.7 million people?

I should have thought the answer would be quite obvious.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM

Seems perfectly logical to me too.
There can be little doubt that Israel is the aggressor here - it has been trying to control the Palestinian economy for twenty years; the last half dozen or so with a full scale blockade.
Lately they have made moves to step up that blockade by working out just how far they dare go without bringing about widespread starvation (such is the stuff holocausts are made of)
If, as the Fox report claims, the passage of goods is a tenuous one, the Palestinians are left with a couple of alternatives - to stock up with food, medicines and other essential goods, and dig in (in other words, to accept the reality of a tightening of the screws of an already debilitating siege); or to concentrate on bringing in the wherewithal to offer some sort of resistance to the proposed Israeli possibly-genocidal aggression.
This latter becomes all the more urgent in light of the fact that the Israeli government is planning to go into partnership with real live knuckles-along-the-floor religious nutters (as if the present mob weren't neanderthal enough already)   
Now what would we do given that choice, I wonder....????
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM

"WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?"

Because they can get as much as they like delivered across the border with Israel, above ground, on big trucks, so why ever would they want to?
Likewise medical supplies.
Blaming mismangement in Gaza on Israel is just propaganda, and these knobs all lap it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:06 PM

Quite, Keith ~~ but they are all saying that they haven't got any; can't get it in: and now Jim has come right out and said they need the weapons more ~~

"alternatives - to stock up with food, medicines and other essential goods, and dig in (in other words, to accept the reality of a tightening of the screws of an already debilitating siege); or to concentrate on bringing in the wherewithal to offer some sort of resistance"

"Guns before butter": now remind us all, Jim ~~ who said that?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:22 PM

Keith, you have stated that I don't have enough information about Israel. Well here's some real information that you should read.

It's the occupation, stupid!

Here's another article you and MGM should read.


Partisan US creates a false equivalency

Where is the money for arms that Israel gets coming from? The American taxpayer.

6,000 Palestinians killed from Israeli agression.

3 Israeli citizens from Hamas rocket attacks.

In the meantime, Palestinian children are suffering from malnutrition.

That's equivalent to starvation.

I don't support the firing of rockets but I know a Zionist oppression reminiscent of
what Jews were subjected to at one time.

Not all Jews are Zionists.

Gilead Sharon is a little monster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:39 PM

Matt Gurney is full of propagandistic crap. bobad, you've got to do better than that.

The Palestinians live in an open air prison, harassed, controlled and abused by Israelis.

The idea that enough medicine will take care of a people after they've been bombed unmercifully is laughable. They still haven't recovered from Operation Cast Lead in which a whole population is being punished for supporting Hamas and now this insane
Pillar of Cloud Operation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:51 PM

"a whole population is being punished for supporting Hamas"...
.,,.,.
A population that elected them in a free election on a programme of pursuing precisely these policies, Stringsinger ~~ do not forget that, please?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 01:49 AM

Keith, you have stated that I don't have enough information about Israel.

EDUCATING STRINGY.
Palestinian children are suffering from malnutrition.
That's equivalent to starvation


No Stringy.
Malnutrition is found everywhere, including your town and my town, and it is not all Israel's fault.
Starvation is when you die.

6,000 Palestinians killed from Israeli agression.
3 Israeli citizens from Hamas rocket attacks.

You are clearly a member of the "make up a number and add noughts" school of statistics.
Which day of the conflict are you referring to?

Thank you for bringing some comedy into an otherwise grim subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:04 AM

"Jim has come right out and said they need the weapons more "
Whatever we might think of them, in the present situation it is the duty of the Palestinian leadership to resist the murderously genocidal regime who hasn't thought twice about massacring civilians and destroying their homes in their ongoing expansionism
Count the dead civilians from the latest terror attacks,
Read about the ultras who will partner your friends in the next election.
Explain why your friends are measuring just how far they can go before they bring about mass starvation with their blockade.
You have now joined your pupil in claiming that the regime you so strongly oppose is really the Christmas fairy bringing goodies to the Palestinian people
There, - isn't it much more comfortable out of that nasty old closet?   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:18 AM

it is the duty of the Palestinian leadership to resist the murderously genocidal regime
They have committed no murder, and far from genocide the Gazan population is in extreme rapid expansion.
who hasn't thought twice about massacring civilians
Or even once.
No "massacre of civilians."
Count the dead civilians from the latest terror attacks
The indiscriminate, illegal missiles and bus bomb are the only terrorism in this conflict.
bring about mass starvation with their blockade
Did you forget that THERE IS NO BLOCKADE OF FOOD, ONLY WEAPONS.

Without wild hyperbole and made up horrors, what is your case Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:31 AM

I have come late to this thread. I pause only long enough to confirm one thing Don said above. He is certainly no leftie. He votes conservative and is really very right wing on most things. For Keith and Myer to outflank him to the right must make their point of origin somewhere on Mars or further.

I might as well say one other thing. Israel is an invasion of Arab land. The Jewish political units created at the stroke of a pen from the end of the First World War until today were taken from the Arabs and given to the Jews by people who had no legitimate right so to do.

If one compares Ireland, it was invaded by the English starting in about the 1300s until wholly ruled by England. But the Irish refused to stay conquered. Their armed insurrection in the early 20s culminated in a (mostly)legitimate military overthrow. They continued a terrorist campaign (with substantial support from the USA) against the northern states and England until the terrorists named by McGrath got that they wanted - and in the fullness of time they will have the northern states. It's all rather like the terrorist Menachem Begin's successful campaign to establish the 1948 Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 01:57 PM

They are not my "friends", Jim, as you well know. What with that, and your constant bleats of 'hypocrite" without thinking of the beam in your own eye, you are resorting yet again to your old technique of flinging abuse when you run out of arguments. Right back to your predictable MO , alas! Do you really think you take anybody in?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:06 PM

Richard ~~ Begin's campaign was against the British occupiers, who insisted on sticking around by the will or invitation of neither Arabs nor Jews after the Mandate which put them there expired with the end of the existence of the League of Nations, whose it was in the first place: all part of that British Imperialism, so often denounced by precisely the likes of you ~ the belief that the Pax Britannica must be upheld by force of arms wherever HM's Government thought fit. It was not against the Arabs - whose land, in any event, it wasn't in any sense: they lived there at the will & pleasure of the Turkish governors and never had a state of their own there: which renders your comparison with Ireland far beyond absurd, into the realms of loony fantasy in comparing like with absolutely unlike.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:00 PM

They are not my "friends", Jim, as you well know"
I find Keith's stance rather detestable but at least he leaves nobody in any doubt as to where he stands.
As for insults - you are a dab hand at those yourself - when the mask slips
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:00 PM

I don't think you will ever have seen a post of mine, Myer, denouncing "British Imperialism". If you have, please give an accurate citation. I am not conceited enough to keep a database of my posts.

You are completely wrong about the Arabs. They had always occupied the lands in point. It was merely a question of who notionally ruled them. The rule of the Ottoman Empire had vanished. The figleaf of legitimacy given by the League of Nations had vanished. The UN had no authority derived from the occupiers to give away their land (the classic "democratic deficit" of modern parlance).

And Begin was a terrorist opposing an occupying force - just like Gerry Adams.

Try to keep up. I know it's hard at your age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM

As for insults - you are a dab hand at those yourself ~~~
.,,,...

Thanks for the compliment, Jim ~~ much appreciated.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:29 PM

I find Keith's stance rather detestable but at least he leaves nobody in any doubt as to where he stands.
..,,..
No doubt where I stand either, if you would only take the trouble to keep up. Just read what's posted, not what the ineffable James Carroll assumes ought to be posted...

Eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:31 PM

Learn some manners, Mr Bridge, or have the goodness not to address me again, you disgustingly discourteous organism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:42 PM

""Because they can get as much as they like delivered across the border with Israel, above ground, on big trucks, so why ever would they want to?
Likewise medical supplies.
Blaming mismangement in Gaza on Israel is just propaganda, and these knobs all lap it up.
""

So why the shortages?

We have plenty of evidence from non Palestinian hospital staff that there is an ongoing shortage of medical supplies.

And your shouting about every criticism of Israel being propaganda doesn't make it true, and disparaging references to us "knobs" doesn't either you ignorant pr**k.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:49 PM

"So why the shortages?"

There is no shortage of rockets, is there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:38 AM

So why the shortages?
As they are not the fault of Israel who allow any amount in, it can only be the fault of the people in charge of Gaza.
Time to accept some uncomfortable truth Don.
Israel is not the evil monster you like to believe it to be.
Hamas actually is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:12 AM

"Thanks for the compliment, Jim ~~ much appreciated. "
I didn't say you were skilful at them, just prolific. Given your latest offerings here, you are rather crudely childish at it - "old age", "disgustingly discourteous organism" - is that all that Cambridge left you with - tut-tut.
As far as your stance; this thread is about the present moves by the Israeli regime towards starving the Palestinians into submission, yet the only criticisms I can see from you are aimed directly at those who find such behaviour abhorrent.
To quote - "Which side are you on?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:41 AM

this thread is about the present moves by the Israeli regime towards starving the Palestinians into submission

It was Jim, but now we have established that they are not starving anyone.
THERE IS FREE MOVEMENT OF FOOD ACROSS THE BORDER BETWEEN GAZA AND ISRAEL!

You will need to make up a new slander against Israel.
That one is dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:03 AM

Sorry, Jim ~~ but 'dab hand' implies skill and proficiency, not merely prolificancy ---

"dab - expert; a dab hand at - an expert at" {Chambers}.

Can't you even get that much right, my dear old fellow.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:11 AM

Sorry ~~ looking back again, Chambers defines 'dab' even more explicitly as 'an expert person'; followed by the definition for 'dab hand' given above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:16 AM

... and for good measure, Collins defines 'dab hand' as ' someone particularly expert at something'.

Not a dab hand at definitions or postings, are you, poor old Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:24 AM

"THERE IS FREE MOVEMENT OF FOOD ACROSS THE BORDER BETWEEN GAZA AND ISRAEL!"
Whether this is so or not is totally beside the point - the Israelis are still forbidding essential agricultural material which prevents Palestinians from growing their own food to feed themselves and make a living.
Also on their list are building materials which are necessary to rebuild the homes destroyed by indiscriminate Israeli attacks on built-up areas.
Malnutrition due to food shortages, directly identified to the blockade by the UN and Amnesty, is present in 10% of Palestinian children.
As has been already pointed out, delays and border closures have caused shortages in medical supplies, leading to untreated illnesses, even deaths.
All this is fully documented and reported by reliable observers over and over again.   
The Israelis are continuing to carry out what they started in 1992 - to control and manipulate the Palestinian economy for their own expansionist ends.
The policy of measuring how much food is need so as not to tip Palestine into mass starvation says everything that needs to be said about the Israeli regime, as does its intention to team up with an ultra-religious party in order to hold on to power.
These rightists are now proposing the cutting off of water and electricity to Gaza in order to "drive them into Egypt" - not a lot of equivocation there - puts it in a nutshell really.   
This "slander" is far from dead, it's not even had time to take a nap.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:24 AM

& what kind of 'ism' is this constant gratuitous obsessive throwing up of the fact that I was at Cambridge and you weren't?   "Chip-on-shoulderism' is what I should call it..


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:28 AM

Hitler and the Nazis never admitted that they rounded up Jews just because they were Jews.
They invented crimes that Jews were responsible for to justify it.

Likewise Hamas claims it only kills Jews because of supposed crimes in the West Bank but, as their Covenant reveals, they are just dedicated to killing Jews.

People here claim that they only hate Israel for what it does, not for what they are, but they too have to make up the crimes, so I am not fooled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:35 AM

the Israelis are still forbidding essential agricultural material which prevents Palestinians from growing their own food to feed themselves and make a living.
There is another one!

Also on their list are building materials which are necessary to rebuild the homes destroyed by indiscriminate Israeli attacks on built-up areas.

Not true Jim.
Building materials are allowed in under aid agency supervision.
It is just not given to Hamas to make bomb proof missile stores with.
Malnutrition due to food shortages, directly identified to the blockade by the UN and Amnesty, is present in 10% of Palestinian children.
AND ANOTHER ONE!
Remember that I showed aid agencies EXPORTING SURPLUS FOOD from Gaza by the truckload.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM

The Israelis have restrictions on how much food and medical supplies they will allow into Gaza, since they are punishing Palestinians for voting democratically for Hamas.

The aid agencies that you mention Keith are a farce. The real aid agencies such as the Marvi Marmara and other humanitarian attempts to really address the needs of the Palestinian people such as medication, food, and other basic staples are being ignored and suppressed by the brutal occupation.

Here are some more reality checks for you.

Health crises and crimes

a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/11/20/israel-palestine-what-is-the-u-s-national-interest/">US partisan backing of Israel

US partisan backing of Israe">Gilad Sharon: monster


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM

Sharon: monster

US partisan backing of Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:02 AM

Here's an artical that articulates the complete phoniness of the Zionist cause.
1. The Israelis aren't interested in peace but in land grabs.
2. There is purposeless on Israel's attack on Gaza.
3. The idea that Israel is trying to defend itself by aggression is specious.
4.   40% of Gazans are refugees from pre-1948 Palestine lived there for millenia.
5. Zionists expelled Gazans in 1948.
6. How can Israel be a war with a tiny community of 1.7 million people?
7. Many of the innocent Gazans are minors and couldn't vote for Hamas.
8. Israel is one of the most heavily armed with modern weaponry in the world.
9. Ahmad Jabari tried to negotiate peace talks but was killed for his effort.
10. The BDS (boycott, disinvestment and sanctions) will hurt Israel.

10 myths about Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:08 AM

The Israelis have restrictions on how much food and medical supplies they will allow into Gaza,
That is a lie Stringsinger.

The aid agencies that you mention Keith are a farce. The real aid agencies such as the Marvi Marmara
That is just funny and makes you look stupid.
It was a UN agency exporting the food.
The Marmara was a one-off stunt.
It carried no food, and no medical supplies that were actually in short supply like cancer drugs.
It did carry quite a lot of out of date Tamiflu that was not wanted by anyone.
The Gazans left it uncollected at the border for two weeks until the embarrassed Turks begged them to take it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:46 AM

"Chip-on-shoulderism' is what I should call it.."
Avoiding telling us which side you are on, I call it Mike.
Never mind - it was a rhetorical question.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM

Sorry, Jim. I know it isn't the main point and I should probably let it lie; but what the hell has Cambridge got to do with it, however rhetorical a trope, if not as a bit of chippiness? I genuinely cannot get your point as to how it relates to your perceiving me as 'wanting it both ways' ~~ see my response to Steve about judging each case on its merits. The Gaza/Hamas situation really does seem to me in a different category from the olive-groves, fences, and all the other disgusting Israeli goings-on that you [& I] take such justified exception to. I regard this as an attempt to arrive at a judgment on this precise aspect of the situation, rather that an inconsistency. You don't have to agree with this assessment, but try to recognise it for what it is ~~ & leave Cambridge out of it: I can't help having been there, & see no reason to be in any way ashamed of or apologetic for it -- it's some sort of unworthy 'ism' on your part, hosoever you try to laugh it off as 'rhetorical'. & if it isn't chippy-shoulderism, then it's something that ill befits your intelligence and your much-vaunted tolerance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:16 PM

"That is a lie"
And still more "lies"!!!
From Amnesty International:
Israel claims that the ongoing blockade of Gaza, in force since June 2007, is a response to the indiscriminate rocket attacks launched from Gaza into southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups. The reality is that the blockade does not target armed groups but rather punishes Gaza's entire population by restricting the entry of food, medical supplies, educational equipment and building materials.
The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately. As the occupying power, Israel has a duty under international law to ensure the welfare of Gaza's inhabitants, including their rights to health, education, food and adequate housing.
During Operation "Cast Lead", from 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009,13 Israelis were killed, including three civilians in southern Israel, where dozens more were injured in indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups. In Gaza, Israeli attacks damaged or destroyed civilian buildings and infrastructure, including hospitals and schools, the water and electricity systems. Thousands of Palestinian homes were destroyed or severely damaged. An estimated 280 of the 641 schools in Gaza were damaged and 18 were destroyed. More than half of Gaza's population is under the age of 18 and the disruption to their education, due to the damage caused during Operation "Cast Lead" and as a result of the continuing Israeli boycott, is having a devastating impact
Hospitals have also been badly affected by the military offensive and the blockade. Trucks of medical aid provided by the World Health Organization have been repeatedly refused entry to Gaza without explanation by Israeli officials. Patients with serious medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza continue to be prevented or delayed from leaving Gaza by the Israeli authorities - since the closure of crossings leading into and out of Gaza, patients have been made to apply for permits, but these permits are frequently denied. On 1 November 2009, Samir al-Nadim, a father of three children, died after his exit from Gaza for a heart operation was delayed
http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Gaza_War_Legacy.html

An initial survey conducted by the UNDP estimates that 14,000 homes, 68 government buildings, and 31 non-governmental organization offices (NGOs) were either totally or partially damaged. As a result, an estimated 600,000 tonnes of concrete rubble will need to be removed.[21] Since 2007, construction material have not permitted entry into Gaza, adversely affecting UN projects, in particular UNRWA and UNDP which were forced to suspend more than $100 million in construction projects due to lack of materials.[29] Another UNDP rapid damage assessment of 170 out of the 407 government and private schools in the Gaza strip found that ten schools were severely damaged, and that 160 government and ten private schools were partially damaged during the Israeli military operation. Eight kindergartens were severely damaged and 60 were partially damaged. The UN humanitarian office stated that repairing such schools remains an urgent priority. Ten UNICEF tents were brought to Gaza to be used as learning spaces in the most damage-stricken areas.[20]The Israeli Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories has confirmed that there is as yet no intention to revise the policy prohibiting clearance of reconstruction materials which would enable aid agencies working in Gaza to transition to rehabilitation and reconstruction.[26]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Gaza_War

http://middleeast.about.com/od/usmideastpolicy/qt/congressional-letter-gaza-siege.htm

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=878

"but what the hell has Cambridge got to do with it"
Nothing at all Mike, put in as a reference to your childish name -calling, nothing more, but it's obviously given you the excuse not to pass an opinion on Israel's targetting of civilians - glad to have been of assistance
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:22 PM

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:31 PM

Sorry, Jim: you have really lost me now. I fear you are once more revealing yourself as a dab hand at making yourself look silly. Why do you keep doing it,, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:49 PM

Yes lies Jim.
Your "Amnesty" quote was not on any Amnesty site and must be years out of date.
Likewise your Wiki piece about a previous conflict.

the Israelis are still forbidding essential agricultural material which prevents Palestinians from growing their own food to feed themselves and make a living.
There is another lie.

Also on their list are building materials which are necessary to rebuild the homes destroyed by indiscriminate Israeli attacks on built-up areas.
Not true Jim.
Building materials are allowed in under aid agency supervision.
It is just not given to Hamas to make bomb proof missile stores with.
Malnutrition due to food shortages, directly identified to the blockade by the UN and Amnesty, is present in 10% of Palestinian children.
AND ANOTHER ONE!
Remember that I showed aid agencies EXPORTING SURPLUS FOOD from Gaza by the truckload.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:10 PM

"I fear you are once more revealing yourself as a dab hand at making yourself look silly"
More empty evasion Mike - looks like we'll have to make up our own minds which side you're on - those of us who haven't already reached a conclusions, that is.
As for your moronic friend.......
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:07 PM

your moronic friend....Jim Carroll.
You are too hard on yourself Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:26 PM

"Israel is not the evil monster you like to believe it to be.
Hamas actually is.
"

You are a genuinely devious a******e.

I claim both sides must accept blame, you say I'm anti Israel.

Yet you accept NO criticism of Israel whatever. You are definitely anti Palestine, anti Gaza and anti anybody who disagrees, you racist.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM

"Hitler and the Nazis never admitted that they rounded up Jews just because they were Jews.
They invented crimes that Jews were responsible for to justify it.
"

NO! They DIDN'T!

They rounded up Jews in all occupied Europe without giving any reason at all.

They used invented Jewish crimes in order to achieve power.

The "Final Solution" was entirely without any such claims. They weren't needed since the German nation was already convinced, in the main.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:42 AM

So you are saying that the Nazis did not blame the Jews for all Germany's and Europe's problems?
And you call me a racist!

I am prepared to criticise Israel and have done, but like MtheGM I think they have done their best with Gaza and Hamas is to blame for the suffering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:58 AM

Perhaps you deny the Nazis' racist lies because you regard them as accurate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 05:04 AM

Did you believe your own lies about the Marmara Don?
Why do you tell lies to demonize Jews Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:19 AM

Jews are not being demonized. Zionist propaganda is. The point is that we have a potential Stockholm Syndrome when the Likud Government starts acting like Zionazis.

There are many Jews world wide who decry Israel's application of Zionism, some are rabbis and others with Jewish heritage such as Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein, Goldstone (of the Goldstone report), Noam Chomsky who actually knows more about Judaism than anyone here, and Uri Avnery.

As I have stated before, falling on deaf ears to the erstwhile Israeli supporters here,David ben Gurion would be embarrassed to see what Zionism has become. He at least was honest enough to say that "we took their land" and was sensitive to this issue.

The lies are coming from the supporters of Israeli aggression and occupation.
In spite of the legitimate reality on the ground in Palestine, a tenacious, almost religious fervor takes hold of these supporters and no other facts are allowed into the discussion except the fictions they endorse.

Fortunately, there are Israelis who really care about the atrocities their country is committing despite that fact that many of done jail time, such as Uri Avnery and members of Gush Shalom, in a so-called democratic country which is becoming a theocracy day by day.

It is common knowledge that Hamas employs rocketry which kills practically no Israelis in proportion to the many thousands of Palestinians which have died, many women and children at the hands of the Israeli military.

There is no legitimate defense of the use of rocketry but this would cease when and if Israel decides to enter into a real peace negotiation and not the facade that they use to appropriate more land, expansion, and military buildup.



J


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 11:02 AM

Why can't your side discuss it without making stuff up?

The Israelis have restrictions on how much food and medical supplies they will allow into Gaza

It is a lie Stringsinger.
You must know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:43 AM

"Why can't your side discuss it without making stuff up?"
In all your claim of "lies" as a response to universally accepted evidence from the U.N., Amnesty International, and reports from relief and news agencies all over the world, you have not offered on single scrap of evidence to back up your outrageous claims.
Shatila - Sabra - malnutrition - chemical warfare - the deliberate destruction of built up areas, the intended plan to bring the people of Gaza to the point of starvation.... even the reported death and injury figures in the recent attacks; all inventions of who - a world full of anti-Semites, or what?
You are a fanatic - fortunately you are a extremely stupid and inept fanatic and so, very easy to spot - keep up the good work.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:01 AM

Shatila - Sabra -
I do not accuse you of making these massacres up, but they were carried out by Lebanese militias and Israel's role is disputed.
We have discussed this endlessly and it was 30 years ago!
malnutrition
Found in all countries and most towns.
- chemical warfare
That is a blatant lie. Israel has never used chemical weapons.
The problem is your personal definition.-
the deliberate destruction of built up areas,
Only those built up areas where Hamas fights from.
the intended plan to bring the people of Gaza to the point of starvation....
Yes. That is a lie.
even the reported death and injury figures in the recent attacks;
I only pointed out that Hamas' figures had not been confirmed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:26 AM

For heaven's sake - will you Zionists not listen even to David ben Gurion? "We took their land". What part of that do you not understand?


"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement
with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country.
It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest
them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism,
the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault?

They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their
country. Why would they accept that?"

-- David Ben Gurion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:32 AM

Settlements - not in Gaza but on other Arab land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement



Settler oppression of Arabs
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/eu-looks-to-compile-blacklist-barring-entry-to-known-violent-israeli-settlers.premium-1.480497


Israel's "Berlin wall"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:59 AM

"Perhaps you deny the Nazis' racist lies because you regard them as accurate?"

Don't you dare to ascribe your stinking prejudice to me, you lying bastard.

I said exactly what I meant.

Hitler invented "Jewish" crimes in order to frighten the German population into giving up their rights and freedoms for the spurious security he offered, which allowed the Nazis to achieve power "legally" (and I use that word in its loosest sense).

However, when the "final solution" was enacted there was no further need for subterfuge, and he simply rounded up all that could be discovered, throughout occupied territories.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:03 AM

"Why do you tell lies to demonize Jews Don?"

You are really starting to piss me off mate.

I have been talking non stop about the Israei government and its bully boy so-called "defence" force.

The only person who keeps bring Jews into the argument is you, our resident Arab hater.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:13 AM

"- chemical warfare
That is a blatant lie. Israel has never used chemical weapons.
"

Why don't you ask the men who were splattered with burning phosphorus whether they accept that, or the mother of a child whose skin is on fire?

No matter what weasel words are used to cover up those injured and killed, the use of white phosphorus anywhere near civilians is an abomination.

If it isn't, de facto, a crime against humanity, it bloody well should be, and any government sanctioning its use should be bloody ashamed.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier

This is well worth a look, destroying as it does, Keith's arguments re Israeli control of Gaza.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:49 AM

destroying as it does, Keith's arguments re Israeli control of Gaza.
Which Don?
I see no contradiction to anything I have posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:29 AM

It would seem to make the point that Israel controls ingress and egress of goods to and from Gaza - even into Egypt. A stranglehold is still a stranglehold even if it is somewhat eased so that the victim does not immediately die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 09:26 AM

How does Israel control what Egypt allows?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 09:30 AM

Would not a "stranglehold" prevent the influx of thousands of missiles, and of all those hundreds of rounds fired in celebration of the Tel Aviv bus bomb announced to celebrating crowds by mosque tannoys?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:30 AM

Shatila - Sabra
There has never been any doubt about the Israeli implication in these massacres, except in the apologist minds of pervs like yourself who insist in defending their part in them – the only evidence you have ever offered is "the Israelis said they didn't do it"
"and it was 30 years ago!"
So what – are you suggesting there should be a moratorium on war crimes?
Simon Wiesenthal retired from (rightly) hunting Nazis in 2003, nearly 60years after the end of the war – should he have taken up gardening instead?
These massacres are no different from the crimes that Wiesenthal was seeking to bring justice to, other than in the numbers of victims, and I have no doubt that many of the criminals the Wiesenthal organisation brought to justice were guilty of far less murders than the thousands that died at Sabra and Shatila at the hands of the Israelis and their thuggish gofers.
The fact that you have to hide behind the length of time the Israeli regime has managed to evade justice is typical of the distortions you have sunk to to defend war criminals
More later as you seem to be incapable of handling anything more than the size of soundbites.
"How does Israel control what Egypt allows?"
Politics - you've already been given the facts of Egypt's desire not to rock the boat - read it again.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM

you've already been given the facts of Egypt's desire not to rock the boat - read it again.
Jim Carroll
/../.,/
So why are they letting all that weaponry in, probably via Sinai Tunnel? Or, if they are not,

YET AGAIN

where is it getting in? And EVEN YETTER AGAIN, why can't food & medicines & other essentials not come in the same way? ~~ which all you pillox are maintaining they are not, when they demonstrably are at that.

Keith has probably already given us the answer to that anyhow: they are getting in with Israeli consent by allowed trans-border routes, despite the rockets:

for saying which I expect Jim-the-Fool will accuse me yet again of blowing H&C about my detestation of what Israel has degenerated to. I have finally decided that, for all his calls for truces &c, he is just not intelligent enuf to be worth my while bothering with. Don't reply or address me again please, Jim. I hereby vow & swear never again to read any post from stupid you, even ones about ploughboys or jolly tars above the line. Adieu!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:05 PM

"Found in all countries and most towns."
The UN and Amnesty have both linked this directly to the blockade so you continue to call them liars.
Israel's determination to control food supplies into Gaza is made obvious by their policy of measuring the necessary calorific intake of food to avoid starvation - another fabrication, no doubt!
Israel's wall and it's inclusion of agricultural equipment on their banned list has prevented farmers from farming their land in order to make a living by selling their produce = high prices = shortages = malnutrition.
Even if that equipment were to be removed from the banned list, it has been there long enough to have caused long-term, probably permanent damage to the most vulnerable Palestinians - the poor and the young, so your claim that it is no longer on the list, even if you had produced irrefutable evidenc that it had, is totally immaterial - the damage has been long done.
"chemical warfare "
Not a lie - a fact, as horrific pictures of women and children with appalling burns have been put up for you graphically show.
Whatever the purpose of white phosphorus may have been, if it is used over built-up ares it is bound to cause injuries.
Israel was warned against its use, yet it still continued to use it.
If someone were to take up a baseball bat and smash a person over the head with it, that bat becomes an offensive, even lethal weapon.
White phosphorus = a chemical weapon when used against human beings.

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iopt0309webwcover.pdf

The Israeli regime = murderous thugs that wage war on civilians
That's enough for you to digest in one sitting; more to come.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:36 PM

If Israel does not restrict food supplies, it is not preventing anyone in Gaza eating.
Malnutrition is caused by poverty.
Hamas prefers to fund Jew killing than keeping its people healthy.
It's fighters never go short of missiles do they!
Please give an up to date quote blaming Israel.

What agricultural equipment is banned, apart from those fertilisers that can be used to make explosives (and only those)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:13 AM

"If Israel does not restrict food supplies, it is not preventing anyone in Gaza eating."
WHAT BIT OF "IN PREVENTING THE PALESTINIANS FROM GROWING THEIR OWN FOOD TO EITHER SELL OR TO FEED THEMSELVES THE ISRAELIS ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR MALNUTRITION AMONG %10 OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
The situation in Gaza caused by the blockade has been reported by the organisations working there and by the press has been reported and has been put up on this thread ad nauseum - you have the facts and you have the evidence for those facts - just as you have the facts for the massacres
The fact that you continue to distort every single issue that is raised with you and that you misrepresent the arguments of everybody who raises them, is proof of your dishonest fanaticism - "lying bastard" just about sums it up.
"the deliberate destruction of built up areas.... Only those built up areas where Hamas fights from."
If this is your argument, then you are contradicting your earlier claim that you do not support the killing of hostages, as you haveclaimed they are.
The Israeli bombardment has targetted domestic blocks - their first victim this time was an apartment block, killing 11 civilians including four children
http://forward.com/articles/166300/four-kids-dead-as-israel-strike-hits-gaza-apartmen/?p=all
They targetted another apartment block being used as a headquarters for the press - no Hamas there
26 children were killed and 400 were injured - according to he United Nations "lies".
http://article.wn.com/view/2012/11/22/Children_suffering_devastating_impact_of_Gaza_crisis_a_UN_ri/
The Israelis have no idea where Hamas is - part of their stated mission is to find them, yet from the outset they have targetted buildings occupied by civilians.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:31 AM

They targetted another apartment block being used as a headquarters for the press - no Hamas there
From "Russia Today"
The Al-Sharouk compound, which houses many media offices in Gaza, has been targeted once again in an Israeli airstrike. Islamic Jihad says one of its top leaders was killed in the attack.
A pillar of smoke was seen billowing from the 10-story building as fire engines and ambulances rushed to the scene. Islamic Jihad says one of its top militant leaders, Ramiz Harb was killed in the strike on Monday. Harb is a leading figure Islamic Jihad's militant wing, the Al Quds Brigades. The IDF described Harb as a chief propagandist for the mlitant group.
The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) confirmed via Twitter that four Islamic Jihad operatives who were hiding in a media building were the intended target of the attack on Monday. Several people are also reported to be wounded.

"The senior PIJ [Palestinian Islamic Jihad] cadre was operating in a media building. They were't [sic] there to be interviewed. They were using reporters as human shields," the IDF tweeted.
"We targeted only the 2nd floor, which is where the senior terrorists were. The rest of the building was unharmed. Direct hit confirmed," they continued.
Apart from Harb, Baha Abu al-Ata Tissir, the commander of Islamic Jihad's Gaza City Brigade, and senior operatives Mahmoud Mahmed Jabari and Halil Batini were believed to be in the building at the time of the attack. It is currently unknown if the other three men died in the attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:53 AM

You old hypocrite Jim!
Sanctions against a tyrannical regime are OK, unless it is Hamas, right?
Remember this conversation?
Me.
"Those poor people need essential supplies.
The IRC (International Red Cross) is begging for an opportunity to get stuff in.
What would be the point of your "trade embargo" Jim?
How would that stop the daily massacres?"

You.
"Those poor people need essential supplies."
These people need to be stopped getting killed first and foremost - a proven method of dealing with dictators is not to call them facile names but to threaten their economy and their power base."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:52 AM

Which "dictator" is that Keith? The democratically elected Hamas party?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:22 AM

There are two threads ongoing on Israel, the 'arseholes' one and the 'Vilnai.. Shoah' one. I am posting this on both.

I have previously posted on both in defence of Israeli policy in Gaza, which has led some, understandably, to question the wholeheartedness of the rejection I have long professed of any identification with present-day Israel, a vast disappointment to many like me in my generation of Jews and its successors. I still feel that the Israeli position on the Gaza situation is understandable in the circumstances, and maintain my mystification as to how weapons but not food can get in.

But I shall no longer pursue this attitude; nor will I contribute any further to, or even open again, either of these threads.

This decision follows my horror at reading Lox's link on one of the threads to the members of the IDF's accounts of their colleagues' behaviour in carrying out searches, which consisted largely of maltreatment of the occupants of houses chosen to be searched. These activities were, I shame to say, learnt from the behaviour of British troops occupying Palestine under the Mandate. I have related before, on another thread, the stories my family learned from an Israeli friend who stayed as a houseguest with us in the late 40s, soon after Israel's Independence, of her friend's having experience a search by British soldiers, which consisted, with their sergeant's consent & encouragement, of nothing but shitting on the floor and then using the family's personal clothing to wipe their bums. And these, I repeat, were British soldiers, oh the shame! It seems the way soldiers go on in such situations

But, be that as it may, I still cannot countenance the tales in Lox's link of Israeli soldiers going on in any such fashion, mistreating innocent occupants of houses they have chosen to search, destroying things, and so on, whoever or wherever their predecessors in such conduct might have been.

So, I repeat, I leave this thread and its companion: with my curse on what Israel has become as my final words.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:33 AM

As soon as Hamas got power, it killed or incarcerated all opposition that did not flee, abolished elections and embarked on an endless war.
I called it a tyranny.
It is the brutal, old style Arab regime that the people have been fighting so hard to get rid of across the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:33 AM

Not to mention throwing it's political opponents off of roof tops but I guess that's acceptable because they were "democratically" elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 08:07 AM

Understanding, reconciliation, started in Northern Ireland with a listening process. People from different factions in the same neighbourhoods were brought to local halls to hear each other's stories. The challenge was not to argue, but to listen to each other's accounts of suffering, grief, humiliation, and to just listen. Some people in Israel and Gaza are already doing the same thing, strangely, united by shared suffering resulting from their two leaderships.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:48 AM

""How does Israel control what Egypt allows?""

Had you removed your head from its normal repository and followed the link I posted you would have learned something.

The Israeli built fence controls the whole land border of Gaza and on the Egyptian side consists of a steel and concrete wall.

Entry into the Gaza Strip by land is through five crossing points: the northern Erez Crossing into Israel, the southern Rafah Crossing into Egypt, and the eastern Karni Crossing used only for cargo. Other cargo crossing points are the Kerem Shalom Crossing on the border with Egypt and the Sufa Crossing farther north.

On 22 January 2008 after Israel imposed a total closure on all crossings to the Gaza Strip, a group of Hamas demonstrators attempted to force open the door of the Rafah Crossing. They were beaten back by Egyptian police and gunfire erupted. That same night Hamas militants set off 15 explosive charges, demolishing a 200-metre length of the metal border wall. After the resulting Breach of the Gaza-Egypt border, many thousands of Palestinians, with estimates ranging from 200,000 to 700,000, crossed into Egypt to buy goods. Palestinians were seen purchasing food, fuel, cigarettes, shoes, furniture, car parts, and generators.

No mention of them trying to obtain anything dangerous, unless they planned to use the generators to give the Israelis electric shocks.

And perhaps you can explain, Keith, how the Israelis managed to close that border they don't control, hhmmmmnnn?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM

""where is it getting in? And EVEN YETTER AGAIN, why can't food & medicines & other essentials not come in the same way? ~~ which all you pillox are maintaining they are not, when they demonstrably are at that.""

Mike, once again, can you not see the difference, logistically, between bringing in say a thousand rockets, and bringing in the food and supplies required for 1.7 million people?

Effectively the weight of supplies would be of the order of bringing in one rocket per head of those 1.7 million.

Totally unrealistic.

Besides, if Israel is entitled to arm itself in its own defence, why should Gaza be prevented from doing likewise? Absent Israeli aggression, they would not be needing to use them.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:09 PM

Don ~~ You have missed my last post, 0622 am. You will find I have changed my position, thanks to Lox's link & your extracts from it. I know I said there that I would now stay off this thread & post no more; but this message an exception to that as it seems you have missed it.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:21 PM

Nice one, Michael. Are you trying to prove that this thread is Hotel California?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:33 PM

Steve ~~ cf your own last post on 'Alternative Science'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

Not that I lied ~~ I meant it at the time; but, like you said

"You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 01:34 PM

So, how does Israel control what Egypt chooses to do?

Don, you still post as if there was some restriction on food and humanitarian supplies from Israel.
There is not.
It can and does all come in above ground, by the truckload, as much as they want.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:23 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 01:34 PM

So, how does Israel control what Egypt chooses to do?

Don, you still post as if there was some restriction on food and humanitarian supplies from Israel.
There is not.
It can and does all come in above ground, by the truckload, as much as they want.
""

No Keith, not within Gazan control.

What they get is what Israel waants them to have.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM

Michael, please do not equate any exchanges I have with Guffers with anything even remotely sensible that I ever try to say or do. Do permit me at least a little latitude in the matter of occasionally being egregiously stupid if I want to be. Wibble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:56 AM

No Keith, not within Gazan control.

What they get is what Israel waants them to have.


Yes Don.
And Israel waants them to have as much as they want without any restriction, even though they make war on Israel and murder (literally murder) as many of its people as they can.

They are lucky to have such a forgiving neighbor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:52 AM

What an utterly risible post. Is Bibi your uncle, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM

Nevertheless, it is a fact that Israel imposes no restriction on Gazan food and humanitarian imports, even though Gaza makes war with Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:05 AM

"Nevertheless, it is a fact that Israel imposes no restriction on Gazan food and humanitarian imports,"
There is no longer an official list of banned items, so what is let through or stopped appears to depend entirely on what the prevailing mood of the Israelis.
What lists that do exist have been compiled by the UN and other organisations as having been prevented from crossing int Gaza at one time or another - not one of the apologists have responded to the fact that stopping or delaying medical equipment have been cited as causing deaths, but it seems the technique here is 'if a fact is inconvenient, ignore it'.
The claim that there is no restriction on food rings hollow with the proposal that inspired this thread - the intention to count calories in order to keep what is allowed through at subsistence level.
The Israelis are openly the aggressors in this conflict, and have been since day one.
"According to Benny Morris the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war.[1]Aryeh Yizthaki attests 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each.[5]Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period[5] and Saleh Abdel Jawadhas listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place.[6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War
Any further doubts about who is the main aggressor can be seen by comparing the casualty figures - Israeli - Palestinian, military - civilian
As well as the atrocities mentioned (and denied without proof by the atrocity deniers and apologists here), attempting to prevent any goods for domestic, building or agricultural use entering Gaza is the supreme act of aggression aimed exclusively at the civilian population -
"You old hypocrite Jim!"
As you have already pointed out "No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back"
It is more than a little ludicrous to suggest that acts of aggression against civilians by a regime with nuclear capability would cease if only David would throw away his sling!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:08 AM

PS
Still not batting for them I see Mike
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM

"Nevertheless, it is a fact that Israel imposes no restriction on Gazan food and humanitarian imports,"

Yes it is Jim.
That Vilnai quote was years ago and was about ensuring there would always be enough food even when there were restrictions.

There is no longer an official list of banned items, so what is let through or stopped appears to depend entirely on what the prevailing mood of the Israelis.
Lie.
Israel has gone on record, no restriction on food or humanitarian supplies.
The aid agencies would soon make a noise if they reneged.

The Israelis are openly the aggressors in this conflict, and have been since day one.
No, they have not.

It is more than a little ludicrous to suggest that acts of aggression against civilians by a regime with nuclear capability would cease if only David would throw away his sling!

Yes actually.
Those slingshots are killing innocents and terrorising millions.
Israel does not commit acts of aggression against civilians, just on the slingshotters hiding behind them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:29 PM

I can't believe that no-one has made this juxtaposition: -

UN recognition of Palestine

Israel's response


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:43 PM

""And Israel waants them to have as much as they want without any restriction,""

And you know that to be true because............?

Oh Yes! Because Israel says so. Except that the evidence (because Israel said so) is that Israel intended to "put Gaza on a diet". And that is collective punishment!

So which is it Keith? Are they lying now, or then.

Bearing in mind of course that there are more agencies claiming food shortages than not.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM

Israel is continuing to oppress the Palestinians despite their acceptance of statehood.

The interesting attitude of the Zionist deniers is that it seems to be set in stone.
The information that they give is entirely erroneous and incorrect.

The latest from Netanyahu is to disregard a two-state solution.

Israel has never been an honest broker in negotiations with Palestinians. They only want to expand and take over Palestinian land.

The US is complicit and is building a military bunker under ground outside of Tel Aviv.
That should tell somebody something.

Here's some important and useful information. Juan Cole knows more about the process taking place in the Mid-East with Israel and Palestine than anyone else on Mudcat.
He's been studying it for decades.

Juan Cole


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:35 PM

I know it to be true Don because Israel announced it to the whole world and because aid agencies including UN agencies are constantly involved and it could not be kept a secret if it was not true, and the whole world media including Arab, Russian, Chinese and every other country's media are scrutinising the whole thing microscopically and how do you imagine Israel could keep it quiet if they said no restrictions and still restricted, you twat!?

That Vilnai quote was some SIX YEARS AGO when restrictions were still in force and made clear that even with the restrictions Israel would ensure sufficient food got through.

Hope that clears everything up Don dear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 02:43 AM

PS
Still not batting for them I see Mike
Jim Carroll

......
Jim, please see again my post of 27 Nov 0622 am. I say again, in case anyone missed it, that the link posted by Lox appears to me authentic and credible; and I can no longer 'bat for' any entity whose soldiers can treat civilians, even enemy ones in time of war, in the manner described there. It has put Israel, even within the specific part of the conflict which is the topic of this thread, entirely beyond the pale so far as I am concerned. Knowing this, I can't see how even Keith et al can go on expressing support for them.

I am off this thread except for purposes of repeating this when challenged, as by Jim here.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/01/palestinian-israeli-settlements-illegal/1738827/
Somethin else for you not to bat for
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:50 PM

Yes OK Jim ~~ You have made your point and I accept it. But try to have a bit of empathy. It is all, with my background and history, a matter of considerable pain and distress to me, the way Israel has gone. Surely you can understand that? It would be the action of a friend to refrain from continually rubbing my nose in it.

Sincerely

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:31 AM

Sorry Mike
I do have empathy, and it was never my intention to either insult or distress you - or anybody.
Much of what you say equally applies to me and many other non Jews were alive while the gas chambers were still fully operational and who pinned much on the formation of the State of Israel.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM

Further to the posts about the testimony of Israeli soldiers, posters here might also find this website - containing numerous similar video testimonies of ex-Israeli soldiers - of interest:

Breaking the Silence - Israeli Soldier's Testimonies


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 05:33 PM

"", Chinese and every other country's media are scrutinising the whole thing microscopically and how do you imagine Israel could keep it quiet if they said no restrictions and still restricted, you twat!? (my emphasis)""

Interesting, no end, how those promoting Israeli lies descend very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 12:04 AM

Disengaged from the main argument of this thread for reasons already several times expressed for being not further able in conscience to defend the Israeli position at all; but feel justice demands that I point out, Don, that Keith's posts are generally expressed with a moderation of language and a courteous tone which most on this forum, including yourself {e g. 26 Nov 0659 'Don't you dare to ascribe your stinking prejudice to me, you lying bastard'}, would do well to emulate.

Feel free, Jim, to repeat your maybe funny once in the previous millennium joke about fairy godmothers if it brings you any sort of satisfaction!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:07 AM

Meant to add, Don, something on the lines of "So pots'n'kettles 2U!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:38 AM

very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive.

No.
Finally in exasperation when oft established facts fail to register with someone trying to take us back to page 1!.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:27 AM

"Feel free, Jim, to repeat your maybe funny once in the previous millennium joke about fairy godmothers if it brings you any sort of satisfaction!"
No point Mike - you're doing the job yourself far better than I ever could.
When in a corner, Keith will lie, even about his own postings, deliberately distort the arguments of others, invent 'experts' who, he claims, are responsible for the ideas he puts forward, claim support from members of this forum when he has none, even to the extent of posting support under a false identity, fake cut-'n-pastes, and always, but always ignore and deny outright evidence put before him when it goes against his own arguments.....
That he might to this with "moderation of language and a courteous tone" is somewhat beside the point (though, like your own, his mask slips occasionally).
Exasperation is a defence we could all put up when arguing with Kieth; he is by far the most dishonest and devious as well as the most right-wing individual I have ever encountered in an argument - I really don't know why he bothers taking part in these discussions - he offers nothing - he learns nothing - and he appears to know nothing and the only thing he seems to gain is attention.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:39 AM

No.
Keith does not lie.
I would always rather lose, and so should you.
All the other stuff, fair comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:03 AM

Jim ~~ I was only responding to this specific point from Don

Interesting, no end, how those promoting Israeli lies descend very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive. Don T.

which I am sure you will agree was unjust. As to other issues, I am, as you know, out of this argument in disgust at the behaviour of some [not all - it was, note, some of own their distressed colleagues who shopped them] Israeli soldiers as reported in the link that Lox provided above.

But defending Keith from so unjust a pots-n-kettles accusation as Don's does not really constitute 'fairy-godmotherdom', to my mind. I am sure you are a fair enough person to acknowledge that.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:04 AM

""Meant to add, Don, something on the lines of "So pots'n'kettles 2U!"""

You ain't exactly squeaky clean yourself Mike.

""26th Nov 02.43PM

Jim the fool
"".

Albeit more gentle than Keith who started the rot calling everybody who doesn't share his love of the Israeli government and the IDF "these knobs".

I insist upon the right to respond in kind when attacked by a twerp who gets nasty when he can't win.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:14 AM

Didn't claim to be 'squeaky clean', Don; but I genuinely do try to avoid mere abuse or obscenity on these threads, and I don't think you will find more than one lapse, an unfortunate attempt at making facetious puns about cunts, in the last two years at least. If you can find another, I will abjectly apologise.

Regards

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:18 AM

""From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM

"WHY CANNOT FOOD AND MEDICINES BE BROUGHT IN THRU WHATEVER ROUTE THE WEAPONS ARE ENTERING BY?"

Because they can get as much as they like delivered across the border with Israel, above ground, on big trucks, so why ever would they want to?
Likewise medical supplies.
Blaming mismangement in Gaza on Israel is just propaganda, and these
knobs all lap it up.""

Comments Mike?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:21 AM

An admitted slight lapse, I suppose; but really quite a mild expletive as they go, surely? ~~ Far less offensive, by convention, than the female equivalent, would you not agree?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:23 AM

At present, the worst enemy Israel has is the Likud Party and its leader (Netanyahu) who needs his fucking head read. He is an asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:26 AM

"I would always rather lose,"
I meant to add - he never admits to being wrong nor apologises when he's caught red-handed, and sneers at those who do as 'grovelling" - please note Mike as you apparently fall into that description.
Sorry all, had no intention of interrupting the proceedings with all this, but couldn't resist MtheGM's invitation to do so.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:34 AM

Slightly exercised by your last post, Jim. In what way do you perceive me as having 'apologised', and for what?

Sorry all, as Jim said, for keeping this bit of drift going; but I am genuinely puzzled as to Jim's meaning here.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:35 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM

I could be wrong about bomb casings.



And Jim, the epithet "knobs" was directed only at those who lap up propaganda.
Surely you and Don did not feel included?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:06 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:39 AM

No.
Keith does not lie.
I would always rather lose, and so should you.
All the other stuff, fair comment.
""

Let's examine more closely that profession of complete honesty, from him who continually claims "No restrictions on food or building materials"

""Not true Jim.
Building materials are allowed in under aid agency supervision.
It is just not given to Hamas to make bomb proof missile stores with.
""

That is a restriction, which also prevents the building of bomb proof shelters to cut down on the prolific Israeli "collateral damage", which of course is Gazan men, women and children, whose deaths and injuries Keith regards as the acceptable price of advancing Israel's acquisitive ambitions.

""Malnutrition due to food shortages, directly identified to the blockade by the UN and Amnesty, is present in 10% of Palestinian children.""

To which, Keith's response is that all aid agencies are wrong and that he knows better based on assurances from St Netanyahu.

He bangs on about food being exported by aid agencies from Gaza.

I ask you, how can any credence be given to the idea that Gazans would be malnourished and still export food, when the infrastucture has been so radically destroyed by Israel's "proportionate" flattening with bombs, shells and bullets, that Gazans no longer have the means to earn, which means they can't afford sufficient food, which takes us back to the restrictions on building slowing the whole process to a crawl.

Sorry Keith, but if you set yourself up as an honest reporter, you need to have more convincing backing.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:13 AM

I was extremely heartened this morning to read that there has been a proposal here in Ireland to boycott all Israeli goods as a protest to the proposed settlements, followed by a quick response by the Israeli ambassador.
Maybe granting Israel Apartheid South African status is a way forward.

Sorry Mike - misread - "I will abjectly apologise." - though I have to say you are someone who regularly apologises when you are shown as being wrong.
"Surely you and Don did not feel included?"
Did I indicate in any way that I did??? Certainly didn't mean to.
BTW - most of what you have just described as "fair comment" is a form of lying.
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:18 AM

""An admitted slight lapse, I suppose; but really quite a mild expletive as they go, surely? ~~ Far less offensive, by convention, than the female equivalent, would you not agree?""

Oh QUITE, Mike!

Which he got round to in his recent description of me.

"", Chinese and every other country's media are scrutinising the whole thing microscopically and how do you imagine Israel could keep it quiet if they said no restrictions and still restricted, you twat!?"" (my emphasis)

And while he slithered out fom under by claiming he hadn't included me with the "knobs" (YEAH, RIGHT, we all believe that don't we?), he can't do that here as this one WAS directly aimed at me.

As for "NO restrictions, well I dealt with that one in my last post. I WILL resond to Keith A exactly as he deals with me.

Comments Mike?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:25 AM

Incidentally, a refusal to allow the West Bank situation to be discussed here IS in itself dishonest.

The West Bank is an integral part of Palestine, and no resolution will be reached while Israel continues to annexe more and more of it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:35 AM

Don't feel moved to comment specifically on this last one, Don. But must again point out that I feel you were being - let us say - ah - perhaps a bit - ah - disingenuous, in implying that it was only those who were on the Israeli side of the matter who would evereverever indulge in such locutions, while you lot were [as you might yourself put it] 'squeaky clean'. I remind you yet again of the post of yours which started this ~~

"Interesting, no end, how those promoting Israeli lies descend very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive"

Now really, would you stand by the exclusivity in this regard which the tone of that post implies. Honest now?

Comments, Don?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:40 AM

'though I have to say you are someone who regularly apologises when you are shown as being wrong'·····

Not entirely clear if you think this a good thing or a bad thing, Jim?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:01 AM

""Now really, would you stand by the exclusivity in this regard which the tone of that post implies. Honest now?

The tone of that post related to folk who start the slanging, in this case Keith.

My responses, I honestly believe were entirely reasonable as I believe that if someone punches me I have a right to defend with a punch.

Your mileage may vary, but I have seen you react similarly once or twice.

Would you deny me what you allow yourself? Honest now?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:02 AM

"Not entirely clear if you think this a good thing or a bad thing, Jim?"
Why on earth should I consider it bad?
im Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:41 AM

Don,

"Interesting, no end, how those promoting Israeli lies descend very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive."



So you have not noticed how most of those who support YOUR viewpoint have been posting???

Your silence on your fellow Hamas supporter's attacking the people posting is obvious- and of no credit to your own standards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM

'but I have seen you react similarly once or twice.'
.,,.
I repeat my challenge made above, Don. Find me more than that one injudicious and ill-expressed example, which I have already admitted, of any term or vocative I have employed which could have distressed Terence Rattigan's Aunt Edna, within the past 2 years, & I shall climb right down & apologise most profusely and embarrassedly. Until than, stop making baseless accusations which you can't justify; they reflect far more ill on you than on me.
The worse terms of abuse, apart from that one instance, which you will find within that period are, perhaps, 'swine', or 'scoundrel'.

Put up or shut up.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 10:58 AM

Come on now, Don. Typing finger where your big mouth is, please. You know that all you have to do is click on my name at top of this post & all my posted thread messages will be revealed, in reverse date order. Search diligently from 1 Jan 11 onwards, and find two [count them: 2] or more instances of the sort of objectionable language we are both referring to, & I will personally reward you with a nice red apple.

Go on. I am waiting...

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:07 PM

Does the name Richard Bridge ring any bells Mike?

I'm sure that on at least two occasions you have been, shall we say somewhat scathing, though quite possibly with some provocation.

I can't be arsed to wade through all those different threads, but I believe you to be an honest man, so tell me I'm wrong, and you'll get the apology.

I might just be motivated to check though.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:11 PM

""So you have not noticed how most of those who support YOUR viewpoint have been posting???

Your silence on your fellow Hamas supporter's attacking the people posting is obvious- and of no credit to your own standards.
""

Once again a comment from cloud cuckoo land.

I am not responsible for the actions of others who may share my view or not, and I can't alter them.

I responded to Keith's personal insults in kind.

Live with it!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:51 PM

I am saddened by the fact that such a terrible world event is occurring and instead of a rational discussion, it has deteriorated into ad hominem.

I am no supporter of violence from any quarter including Hamas but the violence
is disproportionately on the Israeli side under the pretense of "defense".

At the root of the problem is religion, not economics or cultural attitudes as Judaism and Zionism at the extreme is pitted against Islam at the extreme.

Still, the justification for the misappropriation of land by Israel is known throughout almost every country in the world. The bloodletting by Israel, the punishing autocratic father figure, the technologically advanced use of weaponry and the total intolerance that this conveys is evident.

There have been too many innocent Palestinian children murdered under the pretext of "defense". OTOH, relatively few Israeli casualties of women and children by comparison.

It's interesting to me how the blinders are put on when dealing with this issue as if doubling down on a "side" will solve a problem big enough to trigger another world war.

Moynihan: "You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:26 AM

But my idea of 'scathing', Don is something like "useless idiot" or "unpleasant organism" or "scoundrel" or at worst "swine". I honestly sedulously avoid using the [what are celled sometimes] 'taboo words', which so many thoughtlessly indulge in on this forum. I did when I first joined because it was the idiom, regrettably IMO, in which discourse is carried on here. But then I realised that it actually drags down the whole tone & atmosphere, and the level of argument, and resolved a couple of years ago that I was going to use it no more. So, yes, Don, I can honestly say that, except for that one injudicious lapse when I tried but failed to make a joke of it, I have used no such ~~ not even of or to R Bridge when he was being at his most aggressively & mindlessly doltish.

And that truly is the fact of the matter. I say again, if you don't believe me, SEARCH MY POSTS.

Regards

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM

Don.
He bangs on about food being exported by aid agencies from Gaza.

I ask you, how can any credence be given to the idea that Gazans would be malnourished and still export food, when the infrastucture has been so radically destroyed by Israel's "proportionate" flattening with bombs, shells and bullets, that Gazans no longer have the means to earn, which means they can't afford sufficient food, which takes us back to the restrictions on building slowing the whole process to a crawl.


I provided proof in this thread on 12th November.
It is not my fault if you forget things.
Perhaps it is not your fault either, but ask for details before accusing me of lying.


UN World Food Programme helping Gaza by exporting its surplus food to West Bank Palestinians.


and
"Biscuits From Gaza Feed West Bank Schoolkids
The nutritious datebars eaten by children at schools in the West Bank used to be shipped in from Egypt or even further afield. Now they are now being produced much closer to where they are needed: in Gaza. The result is that the local economy is being supported and kids in the West Bank are eating biscuits produced by fellow Palestinians. The first convoy of datebars recently made the crossing from Gaza."
http://www.wfp.org/node/3465/4847/310191

http://www.wfp.org/node/3465/4847/226859


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:49 AM

""UN World Food Programme helping Gaza by exporting its surplus food to West Bank Palestinians.


and
Biscuits From Gaza Feed West Bank Schoolkids
The nutritious datebars eaten by children at schools in the West Bank used to be shipped in from Egypt or even further afield. Now they are now being produced much closer to where they are needed: in Gaza. The result is that the local economy is being supported and kids in the West Bank are eating biscuits produced by fellow Palestinians. The first convoy of datebars recently made the crossing from Gaza.
""

I'm talking about the lack of nourishment of one point seven MILLION people, due to being unable to support themselves because of the Israeli destruction of their factories and other infrastructure, and you are talking about a few truckloads of date bars being exported, not to a foreign market, but to another part of the same country, equally disadvantaged by illegal Israeli occupation.

I don't know what you are smoking mate, but you need to quit.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:51 AM

In fact Keith, it is dishonest to use the term "export", which implies a profit making trade outside ones borders.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:54 AM

Mike, Thank you for the reminder. I now remember being amused by the odd terminology.

You have as promised my unreserved apology.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:16 AM

Thank you, Don. Much appreciated.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:18 AM

From Keith's links to the aid agency WFP website.

""During the recent conflict in Gaza, WFP provided food assistance to more than 800 families who lost their homes. Food was also provided to another 11,000 people who fled their homes to seek safety at local shelters. Regularly scheduled food distributions continued through the conflict for upwards of 60,000 people.""

60,000 from 1.7 million.

""The nutritious datebars eaten by children at schools in the West Bank used to be shipped in from Egypt or even further afield. Now they are now being produced much closer to where they are needed: in Gaza. The result is that the local economy is being supported and kids in the West Bank are eating biscuits produced by fellow Palestinians. The first convoy of datebars recently made the crossing from Gaza.""

Sounds good! Support for the local economy, though please note ""support for fellow Palestinians"". Not really export, is it?

""From Gaza To The West Bank: The Logistics Behind A School Meal""

""From Gaza to the West Bank, follow the transport system set up by WFP that not only supplies the food for one year to a school in the West Bank, but also supports the economy in Gaza.
""

One school? No further comment needed.

""WFP welcomes the ceasefire agreement that guarantees the opening of all crossings for the movement of people and transfer of goods. Access to Gaza is a main concern to WFP and a significant challenge under normal circumstances.""

Normal circumstances being what pertained before the latest round of killing. A significant challenge for the aid agency, in getting movement, so no restrictions there then?

All this from your own links Keith. Perhaps if you read right through the texts?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:54 AM

So Don, Israel allows food, medicine and humanitarian supplies into Gaza without restriction.
Aid agencies export surplus food from Gaza where once they had to bring it in from Egypt or beyond.
Proven facts.

Building materials are supplied to aid agencies in Gaza, but not to Hamas to build missile bunkers.
If Hamas would call off the war, restrictions could be removed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:36 AM

One school? No further comment needed.

The nutritious datebars eaten by children at schools in the West Bank used to be shipped in from Egypt or even further afield. Now they are now being produced much closer to where they are needed: in Gaza. The result is that the local economy is being supported and kids in the West Bank are eating biscuits produced by fellow Palestinians. The first convoy of datebars recently made the crossing from Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:08 AM

"The nutritious datebars"
Let them eat cake - now where have I heard that before?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:12 AM

UN World Food Programme 19th Sept. 2012
This week's 76-metric-ton shipment of 1.2 million fortified date bars will benefit some 75,000 school children, through WFP's school meals project in approximately 300 schools in the most food insecure areas of the West Bank.
http://www.wfp.org/news/news-release/date-bars-produced-gaza-their-way-west-bank-school-children


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:24 AM

Let them eat cake - now where have I heard that before?···
.,,.
Not sure that quite so convincing a quote to adduce as you might believe, Jim. Many consider Marie-Antoinette to have been a much maligned and unfortunate woman. Can anyone really maintain that the [literally] Terrible régime that replaced the 'ancienne' one of which she was part was a phenomenon entirely to be welcomed as any considerable credit to the history of humanity? The trivialising implied, of the genuine achievements of the occupants of Gaza to which Keith has drawn attention, is unworthy of you. I don't think you shall go to the Ball after all!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:37 AM

Don,

You stated:
"Interesting, no end, how those promoting Israeli lies descend very quickly into personal vituperation when their arguments fail to deceive."

I stated:"
""So you have not noticed how most of those who support YOUR viewpoint have been posting???
Your silence on your fellow Hamas supporter's attacking the people posting is obvious- and of no credit to your own standards.""

You reply:
"Once again a comment from cloud cuckoo land.
I am not responsible for the actions of others who may share my view or not, and I can't alter them."


Yet you choose to complain about the postings of others you disagree with, AND HAVE NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR, while taking no fault with those who agree with you. This is a very good definition of bigotry, applying one set of rules to those you differ with, and another to those who agree with you. YOUR responsibility is not to judge others wrong for what you keep silent about when it benefits yourself.

Therefore, I call you what you are- a bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:42 AM

Ah, jeez, looks like Beardie's branching out and attacking folks other than me with his obsessive BS. Perhaps his dosage needs to be increased.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:50 AM

GregF,

I am not the one who states that being "Black and a Democrat" is the same as being a "Dumb ni**er"

AS YOU HAVE STATED.


If you have nothing valid to say ABOUT THE FACTS, I suggest you put your head back up your ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

""So Don, Israel allows food, medicine and humanitarian supplies into Gaza without restriction.
Aid agencies export surplus food from Gaza where once they had to bring it in from Egypt or beyond.
Proven facts.

Building materials are supplied to aid agencies in Gaza, but not to Hamas to build missile bunkers.
If Hamas would call off the war, restrictions could be removed.
""

And the very first aid agency to which you link states that:- ""Access to Gaza is a main concern to WFP and a significant challenge under normal circumstances.""

I don't think that the challenge is due to Gazan action. They aren't in control of the borders. They get shot if they approach them.

Give me your best estimate Keith, of how the date bars feeding children at one school for a year affect the economy of a nation of 1.7 million.

And how does WFP managing to supply food to ""Upwards of 60,000 people"" amount to the 1.7 million having a food surplus.

And how does passing out a few truckloads of date bars to another part of Palestine become "export".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM

" I don't think you shall go to the Ball after all!"
Don't think I want to if I have to dance with Zionist apologists.
You know as well as I do that Keith is out to prove that Israeli atrocities are having no effect on Palestinian health or well being.
He is a fanatic - while you seem content to lurk in the shadows until someone point that fact out.
Shame on yourself, your bullshit fails to impress
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:31 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:36 AM

One school? No further comment needed.

The nutritious datebars eaten by children at schools in the West Bank used to be shipped in from Egypt or even further afield. Now they are now being produced much closer to where they are needed: in Gaza. The result is that the local economy is being supported and kids in the West Bank are eating biscuits produced by fellow Palestinians. The first convoy of datebars recently made the crossing from Gaza.
""

Ah, Bless him. Too tired to read exactly what I posted and save himself the trouble of typing the exact same out again.

But he did apparently miss my response, so here goes:-

Sounds good! Support for the local economy, though please note ""support for fellow Palestinians"". Not really export, is it?

I should have added, very little support, for a very local economy.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:31 AM

You are forgetting things again Don.
Just a few hours ago?
"This week's 76-metric-ton shipment of 1.2 million fortified date bars will benefit some 75,000 school children, through WFP's school meals project in approximately 300 schools"

So not one school and not just a few date bars.

Some of the problems at the border ARE caused by Gazans.
They attack the crossings.
I posted about that this morning.
Write yourself notes and stick them on your computer

I have also posted about disputes between Hamas and PA disrupting deliveries, and labour strikes by Palestinians.

There IS a surplus of food in Gaza, because it is not only WTF supplying Gaza.
The UN WTF says there is a surplus and would not be shipping food out otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:38 AM

Take your meds, Bruce - & get help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:39 AM

""UN World Food Programme 19th Sept. 2012
This week's 76-metric-ton shipment of 1.2 million fortified date bars will benefit some 75,000 school children, through WFP's school meals project in approximately 300 schools in the most food insecure areas of the West Bank.
""

Very crafty Keith link to only part of the story and await opportunity.

More than a bit dishonest, but no surprise.

O.K. It will benefit 75,000 children in another part of Palestine, also under Israeli attack.

And what that charity pays for it will have what effect on the lives of 1.7 million people?

Will it feed THEM?   NO!

Will it warm them? NO!

In point of fact the effect will be insignificant.

AND IT STILL ISN'T EXPORT!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

""This is a very good definition of bigotry, applying one set of rules to those you differ with, and another to those who agree with you. YOUR responsibility is not to judge others wrong for what you keep silent about when it benefits yourself.""

O.K. Once more for the mental midget with a reading age of about three.

I have repeatedly stated that I abhor the terrorist actions of both Hamas and Israel.

You post time and again anti Hamas and anti Arab rants, but steadfastly refuse to admit any misdeeds of the Israeli government and military as documented both by Arab and Israeli sources.

It is you Bruce who come off as the bigot, and a particularly stupid one.

But you're in good company here.

Now bugger off. You'll get no more responses from me.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM

Don.
And what that charity pays for it will have what effect on the lives of 1.7 million people?

It helps the economy and employs some of them.
A small bit of good.

The food they ship used to come from Egypt and Turkey.
Now there is surplus food in Gaza that can be used.
More good news.

What are your objections Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM

Don,

You have never responded to the facts I have presented, insisting on making personnel attack on posters and leaving any factual support for your views unsaid. This implies you have no such support.


Jews were in the region before the present Arab Palestinian population.

The Jews were driven out by military force- and thus, BY YOUR STATEMENTS have the right to the land.

Jews were in the region and ethnically cleansed by Arabs.

YOU insist that Israel be held to standards you do not allow to be applied to the Arabs.

Thus you are a bigot.



Simple statement of fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:37 PM

""It helps the economy and employs some of them.
A small bit of good.
""

But you keep telling us they have no shortage of food because the kindly people bombing and strafing them supply all they want.

That small bit of good will be virtually unnoticeable outside of the few workers needed to harvest the dates and prepare the bars.

Either they need that income to enable them to support themselves or they do not.

If they do, then the rest of the population does too, so what good is being done for them?

And please don't say Israel is looking after them, because if that were the case it would apply to the group producing date bars too.

Either way, your claim that Gaza gets all the food it needs from Israel has more holes than a Gruyere cheese.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 01:14 AM

Don, you are such a silly.
Now you have forgotten why I posted about WTF shipping out truckloads of food.
It was to highlight the FACT that there is no shortage of food in Gaza.
But you keep telling us they have no shortage of food because the kindly people bombing and strafing them supply all they want.
Yes, that is another FACT Don, and if you continue to deny it you are being more than just silly.

Israel applies NO RESTRICTIONS ON FOOD, MEDICINE, OR HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF FOOD.
Far from being a "shoah" or a "holocaust" or "genocide" the population of Gaza is increasing at an extraordinary rate.
It is one of the fastest growing populations in the world (FACT) so things there cannot be that bad.
Can they Don.
Can they Jim.
Can they Stringsinger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 02:48 AM

August 2012
The Gaza Strip
1. Economic growth - In 2011 the Gaza Strip enjoyed a 27% growth rate compared to 2010. This growth contributed to a rise of about 23% in the per capita GDP. The growth is mainly the result of a significant acceleration in building activity in the Gaza Strip, due to Israel's easing the restrictions on bringing in building materials (for international projects under the supervision of the PA and the international community) and to the smuggling of building supplies via the tunnels. In the first quarter of 2012, the Gaza Strip showed 6% growth compared to the first quarter of the previous year.

The unemployment rate in 2011 dropped to 29% (the lowest in a decade), compared to 37.8% in 2010.

2. Goods passage at Kerem Shalom crossing - The transfer capacity of the crossing is much bigger than the actual utilization. Israel allows the transfer of all types of goods to the Gaza Strip (except for dual-use goods, including construction materials). In addition, Israel allows the export of agricultural produce from Gaza. In the last winter season (November 2011 through May 2012) about 436 tons of strawberries, 97 tons of tomatoes, 57 tons of cherry tomatoes, 57 tons of peppers and about 9 million units of flowers were exported. Recently a scanner was installed that will facilitate export activity from the Gaza Strip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 03:36 AM

I want to give the three wise monkeys another chance to answer the question I left thm with.
By lapping up without question all anti-Israel propaganda,and dismissing without consideration Israel's counter claims, they end uplooking very silly.

But you keep telling us they have no shortage of food because the kindly people bombing and strafing them supply all they want.
Factually correct Don, except they try hard only to harm the war criminals being shielded.

Israel applies NO RESTRICTIONS ON FOOD, MEDICINE, OR HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF FOOD.
GAZA EXPORTS IT IN HUNDREDS OF TONS.
Far from being a "shoah" or a "holocaust" or "genocide" the population of Gaza is increasing at an extraordinary rate.
It is one of the fastest growing populations in the world (FACT) so things there cannot be that bad.
Can they Don?
Can they Jim?
Can they Stringsinger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 06:37 AM

""Factually correct Don, except they try hard only to harm the war criminals being shielded.""

The following from IDF sources:-

""Unit: Engineering Corps
Location: Rafah
Year: 2006

During the operations in Gaza, anyone walking around in the street, you shoot at the torso. In one operation in the Philadelphi corridor, anyone walking around at night, you shoot at the torso.

How often were the operations?

Daily. In the Philadelphi corridor, every day.

When you're searching for tunnels, how do people manage to get around -- I mean, they live in the area.

It's like this: You bring one force up to the third or fourth floor of a building. Another group does the search below. They know that while they're doing the search there'll be people trying to attack them. So they put the force up high, so they can shoot at anyone down in the street.

How much shooting was there?

Endless.

Say I'm there, I'm up on the third floor. I shoot at anyone I see?

Yes.

But it's in Gaza, it's a street, it's the most crowded place in the world.

No, no, I'm talking about the Philadelphi corridor.

So that's a rural area?

Not exactly, there's a road, it's like the suburbs, not the center. During operations in the other Gaza neighborhoods it's the same thing. Shooting, during night operations -- shooting.

Is there any kind of announcement telling people to stay indoors?

No.

They actually shot people?

They shot anyone walking around in the street. It always ended with,
"We killed six terrorists today.

" Whoever you shot in the street is "a terrorist."

That's what they say at the briefings?

The goal is to kill terrorists.

What are the rules of engagement?

Whoever's walking around at night, shoot to kill.

During the day, too?

They talked about that in the briefings: whoever's walking around during the day, look for something suspicious. But something suspicious could be a cane.

Unit: Givati Brigade
Location: Gaza Strip
Year: 2008

One company told me they did an operation where a woman was blown up and smeared all over the wall. They kept knocking on her door and there was no answer, so they decided to open it with explosives. They placed them at the door and right at that moment the woman came to open it. Then her kids came down and saw her. I heard about it after the operation at dinner. Someone said it was funny that the kids saw their mother smeared on the wall and everyone cracked up. Another time I got screamed at by my platoon when I went to give the detainees some water from our field kit canteen. They said, "What, are you crazy?" I couldn't see what their problem was, so they said, "Come on, germs." In Nahal Oz, there was an incident with kids who'd been sent by their parents to try to get into Israel to find food, because their families were hungry. They were fourteen- or fifteen-year-old boys, I think. I remember one of them sitting blindfolded and then someone came and hit him, here.
On the legs.
And poured oil on him, the stuff we use to clean weapons.
""

They try that hard Keith?

I'm really impressed........NOT!

There is every indication that this is not a few rogues running amok, but a clearly established military policy with full knowledge and sanction of the IDF command and the Israeli government.


Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 07:25 AM

Fighters and soldiers become brutalised and consumed with hate, and commit war crimes.
Not just Israelis.
In the recent action in Gaza, over a thousand targets were hit in a crowded urban environment from the air, from the sea and from land.

In Syria, thousands would have died.
In Gaza, barely a hundred, perhaps a half of those civilians, and according to Hamas some of those were willing shields and martyrs.

So yes.
But you keep telling us they have no shortage of food because the kindly people bombing and strafing them supply all they want.
Factually correct Don, except they try hard only to harm the war criminals being shielded by civilians.

Israel applies NO RESTRICTIONS ON FOOD, MEDICINE, OR HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF FOOD.
GAZA EXPORTS IT IN HUNDREDS OF TONS.
Far from being a "shoah" or a "holocaust" or "genocide" the population of Gaza is increasing at an extraordinary rate.
It is one of the fastest growing populations in the world (FACT) so things there cannot be that bad.
Can they Don?
Can they Jim?
Can they Stringsinger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM

I really had no intention of feeding your extremely disturbing obsession on this thread - around one quarter of the postings are yours, yet you have not produced one single scrap of hard evidence to make your case.
You have avoided every single piece of hard evidence put before you, or you have dismissed them out of hand, without corroboration.
One thing you have avoided (the subject of this thread) is the Israeli policy of calculating exactly how far they can go in order to starve the Palestinians into submission.
In the past you have denied Israel's massacres, the slaughter of civilized by indiscriminate bombing, chemical weapons, facilitationg the slaughter of 3,000 refugees, destroying the health of %10 of Palestinian children.... every scrap of documented evidence that shows Israel to be the military thugs they are.
Their latest announcement, that they intend to build 3.000 houses on disputed land, y which they will guarantee the continuation of this carnage has shown them so clearly to be the aggressor that even their strongest supporter, the US has baulked at backing them.
I suggest you think on this; Palestine has no standing army, yet they have kept at arms length an aggressive and imperialistically inclined nuclear weapon possessing - the reason it has been able to do this is that Israel realises that it has virtually no world support - zealots like you are few and far between t.b.t.g. (except I don't believe in g)
Get help - and whatever the doctor advises, make sure you stick to his prescription.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 05:14 PM

No evidence Jim?
The premise of this thread was that Gaza is starving. Suffering a starvation holocaust inflicted by evil Israel.
All lies.

I have provided hard evidence that Israel does not restrict the import of food, or anything else except weapons, into Gaza.
You lied.
I have provided hard evidence that far from being short of food, Gaza exports it by the hundreds of tons.
You lied.
No starvation.
No holocaust.
No shoah.
The population of Gaza is one of the fastest growing of any group in the whole world!
You are exposed as lying bigots, lapping up anything against Israel and ignoring anything that challenges your prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM

Oh Posh! 500!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 07:50 AM

You just keep calling me silly Keith, and I'll just keep presenting evidence to show just who is silly, deluded and just plain WRONG.

Your attempts to fudge the issue to show that only Hamas ever do anything wrong are becoming both tedious and ludicrous. 145 Israelis who were and are directly involved say so.

""It's Mostly Punishment…"
Testimonies by Veterans of the Israeli Defense Forces From Gaza and the Occupied Territories
By Breaking the Silence

November 25, 2012

"There is no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders," President Barack Obama said at a press conference last week.

He drew on this general observation in order to justify Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel's most recent military campaign in the Gaza Strip.

In describing the situation this way, he assumes, like many others, that Gaza is a political entity external and independent of Israel.

This is not so. It is true that Israel officially disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, withdrawing its ground troops and evacuating the Israeli settlements there. But despite the absence of a permanent ground presence, Israel has maintained a crushing control over Gaza from that moment until today.

The testimonies of Israeli army veterans expose the truth of that "disengagement." Before Operation Pillar of Defense, after all, Israel launched Operations Summer Rains and Autumn Clouds in 2006, and Hot Winter and Cast Lead in 2008 -- all involving ground invasions.

In one testimony, a veteran speaks of "a battalion operation" in Gaza that lasted for five months, where the soldiers were ordered to shoot "to draw out terrorists" so they "could kill a few."

    Israeli naval blockades stop Gazans from fishing, a main source of food in the Strip. Air blockades prevent freedom of movement. Israel does not allow building materials into the area, forbids exports to the West Bank and Israel, and (other than emergency humanitarian cases) prohibits movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

It controls the Palestinian economy by periodically withholding import taxes. Its restrictions have impeded the expansion and upgrading of the Strip's woeful sewage infrastructure, which could render life in Gaza untenable within a decade.

The blocking of seawater desalination has turned the water supply into a health hazard. Israel has repeatedly demolished small power plants in Gaza, ensuring that the Strip would have to continue to rely on the Israeli electricity supply.

Daily power shortages have been the norm for several years now. Israel's presence is felt everywhere, militarily and otherwise.

    By relying on factual misconceptions, political leaders, deliberately or not, conceal information that is critical to our understanding of events.

Among the people best qualified to correct those misconceptions are the individuals who have been charged with executing a state's policies -- in this case, Israeli soldiers themselves, an authoritative source of information about their government's actions.

I am a veteran of the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), and I know that our first-hand experiences refute the assumption, accepted by many, including President Obama, that Gaza is an independent political entity that exists wholly outside Israel. If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we were stationed there? If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we control it? Oded Na'aman

    [The testimonies by Israeli veterans that follow are taken from 145 collected by the nongovernmental organization "Breaking the Silence" and published in Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers' Testimonies From the Occupied Territories, 2000-2010.

Those in the book represent every division in the IDF and all locations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.]
""

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 09:22 AM

Don you have provided evidence of misbehaviour by soldiers.
Why?
That is very silly, because I have never denied it!
Soldiers and fighters sometimes become brutalised and consumed with hatred, and commit crimes.
Not just Israelis.
(You must have forgotten that we had this exact conversation yesterday)

The premise of this thread was that Gaza is starving. Suffering a starvation holocaust inflicted by evil Israel.
All lies.

I have provided hard evidence that Israel does not restrict the import of food, or anything else except weapons, into Gaza.
You lied.
I have provided hard evidence that far from being short of food, Gaza exports it by the hundreds of tons.
You lied.
No starvation.
No holocaust.
No shoah.
No genocide.
All lies.
The population of Gaza is one of the fastest growing of any group in the whole world!
You are exposed as lying bigots, lapping up anything against Israel and ignoring anything that challenges your prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM

"You are exposed as lying bigots, lapping up anything against Israel and ignoring anything that challenges your prejudice."

Quotable Quote
"When you are mad, mad like this, you don't know it. Reality is what you see. When what you see shifts, departing from anyone else's reality, it's still reality to you."
Marya Hornbacher
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM

OK, but your claims about Israel and Gaza are proved false.
Mine stand, because they are the plain truth.

I have provided hard evidence that Israel does not restrict the import of food, or anything else except weapons, into Gaza.
You lied.
I have provided hard evidence that far from being short of food, Gaza exports it by the hundreds of tons.
You lied.
No starvation.
No holocaust.
No shoah.
No genocide.
All lies.
The population of Gaza is one of the fastest growing of any group in the whole world!

Where lies the madness Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM

Without taking sides, as my ambivalence over all this is a matter of record thruout this thread [& indeed this forum], I feel bound to point out to Jim that, as a tactic in any discussion, the provision of a 'quotable quote', no matter from whom, lwt alone someone of whom few have ever even heard, is no sort of knock-down argument in any shape or form.

Must do better -- or shall not go you know where!

~M~

In interests of fairness, googled this Marya Hornbacher that Jim quoted, before posting this. Find from wikipedia that her claim to fame is having suffered from both anorexia & bulimia, & somehow boondoggled some poor publisher into printing her lucubrations on the subject. My my, what an impressive authority for a 'quotable quote', to be sure!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM

Just seemed a suitable description of your ward's present state of mind - didn't think it needed any further qualification asd it stands on its own merits.
He has refused to respond to all the other links and seems to have sunk back into his Dalek impersonations - are you sure he is taking his medication?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 12:22 PM

Not sure of anything about whom you please to call 'my ward', Jim. Never even met him. Don't even know his name ~~ just that his forename is Keith & he lives in Hertford. Just can't help finding that his arguments are in general far more cogently and convincingly (& courteously) expressed than yours. Can't help that, can I now?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 12:36 PM

Thanks Michael.
I do have the tremendous advantage of arguing well documented facts, while Jim's case is all made up lies.

Apart from random obscure quotes, and trying to change the subject, there is nothing he can say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 01:13 PM

"Never even met him. Don't even know his name"
You know as much as we do about him Mike - and have consistently chosen to defend his manic Zionist bile, despite your assurances of believing otherwise.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 02:26 PM

His "manic bile", Jim, consists of facts and statistics, backed up by reports &c from reputable, unbiased sources. Your responses inevitably consist of assertively denying them ever louder, as if that somehow disproved them. I quote John Gross on F R Leavis again, from The Rise and Fall of the English Man of Letters (Weidenfield & Nicolson 1969) ~~his "faintly ridiculous air of having triumphantly demonstrated what has merely been vigorously asserted". Your mode of argument to a T, Jim; and a quotation properly used, not intended to prove anything simply BY assertion like your silly one from the anorexic, but used descriptively to define the faults in your method of argument:- from your last addressed to me, and going retrospectively, they are all merely assertive, & not argumentative or demonstrative in any way.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 02:34 PM

Incidentally, the use of the term "Zionist" as a self-evident pejorative is a racist-based and exceedingly dubiously respectable tactic, in anybody's language; originating from that attempt, which you cannot deny the existence of even if you do not support or favour it, to disguise outright antisemitism as being merely criticism of Israel. Are you denouncing Herzl and Weizmann, Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, for instance, as in some way morally tarnished. If not, what do you mean by it, exactly?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM

I am not surprised that you find Keith's arguments "factual" and from "unbiased" sources, though I do wonder how you square them with your previous claims of opposition to Israeli policy.
Perhaps you'd like to point out which of his arguments you find factually unbiased "NO RESTRICTIONS ON FOOD, MEDICINE, OR HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF FOOD" maybe?

I understand the term Zionism, as used by Jewish friends (The same ones who told me "they're making us look like a bunch of Fascists") squares roughly with the description below, particularly the last paragraph.
It is a reference to what has happened to Israel and made it the terrorist state it has become - shame on you for hiding behind the accusation of "racism" again.
Jim Carroll

"Zionism is a political movement among Jews (although supported by some non-Jews) which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish national homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there.

Since the Six Day War of 1967, when Israel took control of the West Bank and Gaza, the objectives and methods of the Zionist movement and of Israel have come under increasing criticism. The Arab world opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine from the outset, but during the course of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians since 1967, the legitimacy of Israel, and thus of Zionism, has been increasingly questioned in the wider world. Since the breakdown of the Oslo Accords in 2001, attacks on Zionism in media, intellectual and political circles, particularly in Europe, have reached new levels of intensity.Zionism is a political movement among Jews (although supported by some non-Jews) which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish national homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 03:38 PM

Keith, your "side" belies your objectivity. Here is another reason why you are
totally misinformed on this issue.

Gaza atrocities admitted by IDF


What is a true lie here is the defense of Israel in its oppression and possible genocide of Gaza on the basis of an assumed "security".

Israel needs to be tried in the World Court for war crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 03:45 PM

The misleading aspect of Zionism is that it is based, even in its name, on the religious texts of Judaism. Zionism is a theocratic movement designed to
encourage fundamentalist Jews, who are not a race but a religion.

In fact DNA testing shows that there is little difference between Jews and Arabs in the region.

"Antisemitism" must be applied to all Semitic tribes, Jews and Arabs alike in that area.

The State of Israel has been corrupted by their religious fundamentalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:27 PM

GAZA, Dec 8 (Reuters) - Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, making his first ever visit to the Gaza Strip, vowed on Saturday never to recognise Israel and said his Islamist group would never abandon its claim to all Israeli territory.

"Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land," he told a sea of supporters at an open-air rally, the highlight of his three-day stay in Gaza.

"We will never recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:36 PM

Perhaps you'd like to point out which of his arguments you find factually unbiased "NO RESTRICTIONS ON FOOD, MEDICINE, OR HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF FOOD"

I hope so Jim
That is a thoroughly provable fact from any number of independent sources.
Good choice Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 05:34 PM

I won't dispute your arguments directly, Jim. But would be grateful to know the source of your piece on Zionism. It is not wikipedia; which says, inter-alia, for your interest

"Critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[3] or racist[4] movement. Some scholars consider certain forms[5][6] of opposition to Zionism to constitute Antisemitism.[7][8]"

Stringy ~ The tired old rubric about antisemitism meaning Arabs as well because they are all Semites is unworthy your intelligence. You know perfectly well what 'antisemitism' means in normal Englsih usage. If you don't, try any decent dictionary. If you find anti-Arabism included among any of their definitions, I will give you a nice red apple.

Just a couple from online dictionaries -
...
an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

Definition of ANTI-SEMITISM
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
...




~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 05:46 PM

""Not sure of anything about whom you please to call 'my ward', Jim. Never even met him. Don't even know his name ~~ just that his forename is Keith & he lives in Hertford. Just can't help finding that his arguments are in general far more cogently and convincingly (& courteously) expressed than yours. Can't help that, can I now?""

And that he absolutely ignores the point of my recent posts, that the excesses committed are under orders, not a few rogue soldiers.

They are Israeli policy, and any other military force employing the same methods anywhere in the world would have Keith up on his hind legs demanding prosecution as war criminals.

That is the hypocrisy of the man.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 05:53 PM

""It is true that Israel officially disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, withdrawing its ground troops and evacuating the Israeli settlements there. But despite the absence of a permanent ground presence, Israel has maintained a crushing control over Gaza from that moment until today.""

That statement, made on 25th November 2012, by an ISRAELI veteran who knows more about the situation than Keith possibly could.

Is he lying?.........Or has Keith simply chosen to ignore him?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 03:20 AM

Don, all your posts about crimes by Israeli soldiers are accepted by me, but you contention that IDF seeks to kill large numbers of civilians is not born out by the facts.

Some people do think that preventing weapons getting to Gaza is "crushing control"
I do not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 03:38 AM

"It is not wikipedia; "
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/Zionism_def_history.html

Crouch behind an "Antisemitism" defence if it helps you avoid facing the fact that you are now part and parcel of Keith's little army, despite having said..... "Knowing this, I can't see how even Keith et al can go on expressing support for them".
If you can show that I have anywhere shown "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group", feel free to do so. My argument, and the argument of many Jews I know, or whose writings I read, is with the Israeli regime and its human rights record, particularly on its murderous treatment of civilians. The greatest contribution to Antisemitism over the last half century has been from the Israeli leadership and their supporters.
What was it the man (should have) said, "the last refuge of a scoundrel is the accusation of Antisemitism"
Your behaviour on this subject has been as spineless as Keith's has been mindlessly irrational - he has continued to deny or ignore the facts placed before him, while you have defended his arguments and attempted to protect him from their consequences from the safety of your bunker - a support for Israeli atrocities by proxy.
He has proved nothing, he has answered nothing, his has been a blind defence of atrocities that have been put before him over and over again, which he as chosen, and still chooses to ignore.
I am tempted to write "and then there were two", but this has not been a case of Keith winning your support for his arguments; it has been blindingly obvious that you were there all the time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:07 AM

Same source as before.

""They actually shot people?

They shot anyone walking around in the street. It always ended with, "We killed six terrorists today." Whoever you shot in the street is "a terrorist."

That's what they say at the briefings?

The goal is to kill terrorists.

What are the rules of engagement?

Whoever's walking around at night, shoot to kill.

During the day, too?

They talked about that in the briefings: whoever's walking around during the day, look for something suspicious. But something suspicious could be a cane.
""

How can you read that and still claim that they try not to kill civilians?

And this isn't a case of people being used to shield rocket firing militants, but of people guilty of walking while Palestinian.

One day Keith you will have to admit that your heroes are as guilty as Hamas of crimes against humanity.

Not more guilty, AS GUILTY!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:19 AM

I have not accused you, or anyone, of antisemitism in this instance, Jim; and am not hiding, or hiding from, anything; and retain my view that Keith's knowledge of the goings-on of some Israeli soldiers should give him at least some pause as it has me. I was simply drawing attention to the fact that the term "Zionism" used pejoratively has a recognised unfortunate and ambivalent history & overtone, and ∴ suggesting that your arguments might perhaps be more convincing if you refrained from using it in this way.

How about if I promise never to call you antisemitic, if you in return would refrain from accusing me of having done so? Must say that seems a fair way out of our repetitious impasse to me.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:24 AM

... which is not, tho, to depart from my considered opinion that Keith's posts, backed by rational example & arguments, are far more convincing than yours, which seem to me in the overwhelming main purely 'vigorously assertive'.

IMO, natch, I repeat with emphasis.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:42 AM

Jim,
his has been a blind defence of atrocities that have been put before him over and over again,
It is a lie, and a nasty one, that I have ever defended atrocities.

It is a fact that Israel imposes no restrictions on food or humanitarian supplies, or on building material under PA or UN supervision, yet you still deny the fact because of your prejudice.
It makes you all look ridiculous, but do keep it up.

Don, if IDF sought to kill civilians, as Hamas does, why were there so few in the last conflict?
They have the means to wipe them out but choose to do all they can to avoid civilian casualties.
Some soldiers and fighters will always misbehave Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 06:29 AM

"It is a lie, and a nasty one, that I have ever defended atrocities."
You have denied the pert the Israelis played in the massacre of over 3,00 refugees
You have defended the use of chemicals on civilians, particularly children, even though you have been given the horrific evidence
You have blamed the soldiers for the killing of civilians even though they have shown they were acting under orders
You have denied unequivolcal evidence that the Israeli blockade has caused malnutrition among a significant number of Palestinian children, despite the evidence produced by neutral international organisations on the spot.
You have ignored the fact that the continuing obstruction of building and farming equipment and the building of a Berlin-type wall has caused extreme hardship among ordinary Palestinians, despite having been given documented evidence of these facts
You have described as not only permissible but desirable,the slaughter of civilians if it is believed that Hamas fighters are in the area (OR EVEN IF THEY HAVE THEIR HOMES IN BUILT-UP AREAS.
To top all this off, you have suggested that those who find all this atrocious are Nazi supporters
"Perhaps you deny the Nazis' racist lies because you regard them as accurate?"
A far as I am concerned it is you, your shrinking violet friend, and all the other supporters of this nasty and incredibly dangerous regime who have fed Antisemitism and shamed the Jewish people by hiding behind the dead of the Holocaust.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 08:19 AM

From my last post -

"How about if I promise never to call you antisemitic, if you in return would refrain from accusing me of having done so?"

Seems a pity you couldn't even accommodate your uncontrolled and irrational assertions even to that extent, Jim ~~ a bit of desperate "Doth protest too much" inevitably giving rise to suspicions as to what sort of enormities of thought must be ticking away in the depths of that evidently ethnically-challenged little psyche of yours.

Antisemitic? Who, Jim? Perish the thought!

As the man said, "You think you're not, but..."

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 08:45 AM

Every spineless apologist of Israeli atrocities eventually plays the 'Antisemitic' card - and attempting to do deals with an Anti-Semite, as you claim I am, notches down your integrity even lower than your behaviour has set it so far.
Your logic of requesting that I don't claim you have called me an Antisemitic ".... if you in return would refrain from accusing me of having done so?" and then in the same posting accusing me of just that, "You think you're not, but..." is somewhat... what's the word, bizarre
Perhaps Keith will share some of his meds with you.
A matched pair I think!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 09:25 AM

You have denied the pert the Israelis played in the massacre of over 3,00 refugees
I merely gave Israel's version of events, which you never want to know.

You have defended the use of chemicals on civilians, particularly children, even though you have been given the horrific evidence
It was not chemical weapons.
It was not any kind of weapon. It was smoke munitions, and I did not defend its use.
Actual weapons would have caused hundreds more casualties.

You have blamed the soldiers for the killing of civilians even though they have shown they were acting under orders

Acting under orders is no excuse for a war crime.
There is no indication the orders came from a high level, unlike the orders to launch missiles at ordinary Jewish people from civilian areas.

You have denied unequivolcal evidence that the Israeli blockade has caused malnutrition among a significant number of Palestinian children, despite the evidence produced by neutral international organisations on the spot.

No jim. You have denied unequivocal evidence that there is no blockade of food or medicine.

You have ignored the fact that the continuing obstruction of building and farming equipment and the building of a Berlin-type wall has caused extreme hardship among ordinary Palestinians, despite having been given documented evidence of these facts

I have not discussed the wall.
I have given evidence that gaza's farmers are exporting large amounts of produce, and only fertilisers that can make explosives are banned.


You have described as not only permissible but desirable,the slaughter of civilians if it is believed that Hamas fighters are in the area (OR EVEN IF THEY HAVE THEIR HOMES IN BUILT-UP AREAS.,

I have stated that IDF acted within International Law.

To top all this off, you have suggested that those who find all this atrocious are Nazi supporters

No.

"Perhaps you deny the Nazis' racist lies because you regard them as accurate?"
It was only Don who denied that Nazis made up lies about Jews to justify their extermination.
I did not realise that you agreed with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM

Human Rights Watch.
"Ending existing hardships to Gaza's population by lifting all restrictions on non-military commerce andtravel should be a ceasefire priority, Human Rights Watch said. Israel in May 2010 began to ease the blockade it imposed on Gaza from 2007 to 2010; it no longer, for instance, limits the amount of food imported into Gaza based on calculations of what is minimally necessary to avoid malnutrition. "

The thanks they got was even more missile attacks on their people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM

-A matched pair I think!-
.,,.
Think what you like, little man. You have reached a point where what you think can hold not the remotest interest for anyone but your self-regarding self...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 11:00 AM

"I merely gave Israel's version of events, which you never want to know."
How unbiased of you - I am aware they said they din't do it - the rest of the world (you included) - says they did
"It was not chemical weapons."
Yes it was; just as it was in Falujah when the Americans used it - it was described there as a war crime
"Acting under orders is no excuse for a war crime."
No it isn't - that was not the point. he point is that Israelis have been slaughtering civilians since (and before) the British left.
Enough evidence has been produced to show that the Israeli Government's stance has been the cause of the slaughter - how many soldiers have been tried and punished for war crimes - the ones who delivered the murderers to Sabra and Shatila maybe?
The bombardment did not start until twenty years after Israel started to manipulate the Palestinian economy - in retaliation to Israeli attempts at Imperialism. The building of 3,000 settlements will guarentee the bloodletting will continue - open and needless aggression in revenge for Y,N. attempts to settle the conflict.
"No jim. You have denied unequivocal evidence that there is no blockade of food or medicine."
You have had documented evidence that it has, you have been shown the statements that the blockade has caused malnutrition among Palestinian children, you have been given the poverty figures and been shown that deliberate delays have caused deaths - were is your evidence to the contrary?
"I have not discussed the wall."
No you haven't - you've avoided it like the plague - the observers haven't though; they have reported the effects it has has on ordinary Palestinians.
"I have stated that IDF acted within International Law."
Can you produce proof that the targeting of domestic dwellings and slaughtering the occupants is permissible?
"I did not realise that you agreed with him."
I have not said I agree with your interpretation; I said that you called him a Nazi sympathiser - is that still your claim?
What a pair of shits
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 11:03 AM

""It is a fact that Israel imposes no restrictions on food or humanitarian supplies, or on building material under PA or UN supervision, yet you still deny the fact because of your prejudice.""

Keith, try reading what is placed in front of you. I have highlighted the points in the following which are in direct conflict with your constant re-iterations.

I will point out to you that however many times you repeat a lie, it will remain a lie and will only serve to underline YOUR prejudice.

""It is true that Israel officially disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, withdrawing its ground troops and evacuating the Israeli settlements there. But despite the absence of a permanent ground presence, Israel has maintained a crushing control over Gaza from that moment until today.

The testimonies of Israeli army veterans expose the truth of that "disengagement." Before Operation Pillar of Defense, after all, Israel launched Operations Summer Rains and Autumn Clouds in 2006, and Hot Winter and Cast Lead in 2008 -- all involving ground invasions.

In one testimony, a veteran speaks of "a battalion operation" in Gaza that lasted for five months, where the soldiers were ordered to shoot "to draw out terrorists" so they "could kill a few."

    Israeli naval blockades stop Gazans from fishing, a main source of food in the Strip. Air blockades prevent freedom of movement. Israel does not allow building materials into the area, forbids exports to the West Bank and Israel, and (other than emergency humanitarian cases) prohibits movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

It controls the Palestinian economy by periodically withholding import taxes. Its restrictions have impeded the expansion and upgrading of the Strip's woeful sewage infrastructure, which could render life in Gaza untenable within a decade.

The blocking of seawater desalination has turned the water supply into a health hazard. Israel has repeatedly demolished small power plants in Gaza, ensuring that the Strip would have to continue to rely on the Israeli electricity supply.

Daily power shortages have been the norm for several years now. Israel's presence is felt everywhere, militarily and otherwise.

    By relying on factual misconceptions, political leaders, deliberately or not, conceal information that is critical to our understanding of events.

Among the people best qualified to correct those misconceptions are the individuals who have been charged with executing a state's policies -- in this case, Israeli soldiers themselves, an authoritative source of information about their government's actions.

I am a veteran of the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), and I know that our first-hand experiences refute the assumption, accepted by many, including President Obama, that Gaza is an independent political entity that exists wholly outside Israel. If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we were stationed there? If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we control it? Oded Na'aman
""

I hope that you have at last read the whole of this and can furnish a sensible reply to some questions.

1. Do you really think that you are in a better position to know the truth than this Israeli and all the others who give similar evidence?

2. Are the Israeli naval blockades, which stop Gazans from fishing (a main source of food in the Strip) not a restriction on food?

3. Do you really believe that a five month "battallion operation" can be dismissed as a few soldiers misbehaving?

4. Is the deliberate hindrance of the expansion and upgrading of the sewage infrastructure what you refer to as "stopping Hamas from building bomb proof missile stores"?

5. Is the blocking of seawater desalination (making the water supply a health hazard) not intrinsically a restriction?

6. Is the destruction of power generating stations (forcing a reliance on Israeli power) not a restriction?

Please note that the date of this article is November 25th 2012, following comments by US president Barack Obama.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:26 PM

You have had documented evidence that it has, you have been shown the statements that the blockade has caused malnutrition among Palestinian children, you have been given the poverty figures and been shown that deliberate delays have caused deaths - were is your evidence to the contrary?

I have given PROOF that Israel does not restrict food imports to Gaza.
There has been no restriction for three years and even before that Israel ensured their sworn enemies had enough.
They can and do have as much as they want.
The malnutrition, as in every country, is due to poverty not food shortage.
In Gaza, the grinding poverty of the people is caused by Hamas engaging in an endless war.
There is money for missiles and mortar bombs while children go hungry, their parents unable to afford the plentiful food.
Hamas and their families do not go hungry, and they blame the suffering on Israel.
And all you gullible dupes lap up their propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:44 PM

1. Do you really think that you are in a better position to know the truth than this Israeli and all the others who give similar evidence?

The vast majority deny this.
Why do you ONLY care about alleged Israeli crimes?
Hamas BOASTS of its war crimes and crimes against humanity.
You only express outrage when Jews are accused, NEVER when Jews are victims.

2. Are the Israeli naval blockades, which stop Gazans from fishing (a main source of food in the Strip) not a restriction on food?
As there is no restriction on imports of any kind of food, it has no impact.
If Iran could deliver its weapons via fishing boats it would not have to haul them through Sudan and across the Sinai.
When Hamas calls off the war, fishers may fish further out.
They have a good limit already.

3. Do you really believe that a five month "battallion operation" can be dismissed as a few soldiers misbehaving?

It is certain from any cursory consideration of the casualty figures that IDF is trying to spare civilians while Hamas tries to kill as many as possible.
Why do you not care when the victims are only Jews?
4. Is the deliberate hindrance of the expansion and upgrading of the sewage infrastructure what you refer to as "stopping Hamas from building bomb proof missile stores"?

Building materials are allowed in without restriction under Palestinian Authority or UN supervision.
We know Hamas has been building missile silos and bunkers.

5. Is the blocking of seawater desalination (making the water supply a health hazard) not intrinsically a restriction?
Evidence please.

6. Is the destruction of power generating stations (forcing a reliance on Israeli power) not a restriction?
How kind of Israel to provide power to people busy murdering Jews.
Why do the Jew killers expect kindness in return from the Jews?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 03:57 AM

5. Is the blocking of seawater desalination (making the water supply a health hazard) not intrinsically a restriction?

This is not true.
A lie Don.

Guardian, 30th August 2012
Plans for a desalination plant for Gaza have been discussed since 1996, but with water one of the underlying causes of the Israeli-Palestine conflict, political and security issues have always prevented work from starting. Last year the Palestinian water authority submitted new plans to the Union for the Mediterranean.

However, what gives the scheme at least the possibility of success is that the principle of a desalination plant for Gaza is now backed by Israel, all Mediterranean governments, the UN, the EU and key development banks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:16 AM

""You only express outrage when Jews are accused, NEVER when Jews are victims.""

Now every member on this thread knows beyond doubt that you are a bloody LIAR!

I have repeated numerous times that I abhor Hamas' actions, the most recent of several dozen being the following:-

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:07 AM

Same source as before.

-snip- "One day Keith you will have to admit that your heroes are as guilty as Hamas of crimes against humanity.

Not more guilty, AS GUILTY!

Don T.
" -snip-"

I am not so much incensed at Israeli actions as infuriated by your dim witted and ineffectual attempts to whitewash those actions. Have you got shares in Israel PLC or something?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:38 AM

""If Iran could deliver its weapons via fishing boats it would not have to haul them through Sudan and across the Sinai.
When Hamas calls off the war, fishers may fish further out.
They have a good limit already.
""

Given that the Israeli navy patrols that coast constantly, it could be as effectively blockaded while allowing the Gazans to fish where the shoals actually are, outside of the area now permitted by Israel.

""Unit: Navy

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2008

It's mostly punishment. I hate that: "They did this to us, so we'll do that to them." Do you know what a naval blockade means for the people in Gaza? There's no food for a few days. For example, suppose there's an attack in Netanya, so they impose a naval blockade for four days on the entire Strip. No seagoing vessel can leave. A Dabur patrol boat is stationed at the entrance to the port, if they try to go out, within seconds the soldiers shoot at the bow and even deploy attack helicopters to scare them. We did a lot of operations with attack helicopters -- they don't shoot much because they prefer to let us deal with that, but they're there to scare people, they circle over their heads. All of a sudden there's a Cobra right over your head, stirring up the wind and throwing everything around.

And how frequent were the blockades?

Very. It could be three times one month, and then three months of nothing. It depends.

The blockade goes on for a day, two days, three days, four, or more than that?

I can't remember anything longer than four days. If it was longer than that, they'd die there, and I think the IDF knows that. Seventy percent of Gaza lives on fishing -- they have no other choice. For them it means not eating. There are whole families who don't eat for a few days because of the blockade. They eat bread and water.

6. We shot at fishermen

Unit: Navy

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2007

There's an area bordering Gaza that's under the navy's control. Even after Israel disengaged from the Strip, nothing changed in the sea sector. I remember that near Area K, which divided Israel and Gaza, there were kids as young as four or six, who'd get up early in the morning to fish, in the areas that were off-limits. They'd go there because the other areas were crowded with fishermen. The kids always tried to cross, and every morning we'd shoot in their direction to scare them off. It got to the point of shooting at the kids' feet where they were standing on the beach or at the ones on surfboards. We had Druze police officers on board who'd scream at them in Arabic. We'd see the poor kids crying.

What do you mean, "shoot in their direction"?

It starts with shooting in the air, then it shifts to shooting close by, and in extreme cases it becomes shooting toward their legs.

At what distance?

Five or six hundred meters, with a Rafael heavy machine gun, it's all automatic.

Where do you aim?

It's about perspective. On the screen, there's a measure for height and a one for width, and you mark where you want the bullet to go with the cursor. It cancels out the effect of the waves and hits where it's supposed to, it's precise.

You aim a meter away from the surfboard?

More like five or six meters. I heard about cases where they actually hit the surfboards, but I didn't see it. There were other things that bothered me, this thing with Palestinian fishing nets. The nets cost around four thousand shekels, which is like a million dollars for them. When they wouldn't do what we said too many times, we'd sink their nets. They leave their nets in the water for something like six hours. The Dabur patrol boat comes along and cuts their nets.

Why?

As a punishment.

For what?

Because they didn't do what we said. Let's say a boat drifts over to an area that's off-limits, so a Dabur comes, circles, shoots in the air, and goes back. Then an hour later, the boat comes back and so does the Dabur. The third time around, the Dabur starts shooting at the nets, at the boat, and then shoots to sink them.

Is the off-limits area close to Israel?

There's one area close to Israel and another along the Israeli-Egyptian border… Israel's sea border is twelve miles out, and Gaza's is only three. They've only got those three miles, and that's because of one reason, which is that Israel wants its gas, and there's an offshore drilling rig something like three and a half miles out facing the Gaza Strip, which should be Palestinian, except that it's ours… the Navy Special Forces unit provides security for the rig. A bird comes near the area, they shoot it. There's an insane amount of security for that thing. One time there were Egyptian fishing nets over the three-mile limit, and we dealt with them. A total disaster.

Meaning?

They were in international waters, we don't have jurisdiction there, but we'd shoot at them.

At Egyptian fishing nets?

Yes. Although we're at peace with Egypt.

Oded Na'aman is co-editor of Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers' Testimonies from the Occupied Territories, 2000–2010 (Metropolitan Books, 2012). He is also a founder of Breaking the Silence, an Israeli organization dedicated to collecting the testimonies of Israel Defense Force soldiers, and a member of the Israeli Opposition Network.
""

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:48 AM

Don, you make that brief statement of equal blame, but you post pages and pages of condemnation of Israel, and nothing else about Hamas.
That is no lie, and it belies your claimed impartiality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:49 AM

""It is certain from any cursory consideration of the casualty figures that IDF is trying to spare civilians while Hamas tries to kill as many as possible.
Why do you not care when the victims are only Jews?
""

Hamas manages twenty in ten years, and Israeli kills are in the thousands over the same period. Israeli claims that they are mostly militants are extremely suspect, since they can't actually know, and their policy is "they are all terrorists!"

And there's that persistent little LIE again.

Why is it that you never answer questions with real evidence, simply repeating your tired old mantra, and attacking the questioner/

Go on, try something new......IF you have answers, proper answerts mind, trot them out. Tell me why you are right and those ISRAELI sources are wrong.

You might even consider the possibility of apologising to me and others for that LIE?

NO! You aren't man enough to admit you are wrong, even when faced with incontrovertible proof!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:53 AM

It is a fact that Iranian equipment has to be hauled across Sudan, over the Sinai, and smuggled through the tunnels to reach Gaza.
Much more would get in if they could ship it to a couple of miles of the coast and transfer it to fishing boats.

And yes, individual fighters and soldiers sometimes misbehave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:58 AM

""Why do the Jew killers expect kindness in return from the Jews?""

I don't think the killers of those twenty Israelis expected kindness. I think the Israeli government and the IDF (the real subject of this thread) used the destruction to clamp a tighter control on the whole population of Gaza.

You will note that once again I have deflected your attempt to imply hatred of Jews, when I am discussing Israeli government and IDF.

Please discontinue your devious and malicious machinations because, 1). They don't work, and 2). I like Jews.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 08:05 AM

""Don, you make that brief statement of equal blame, but you post pages and pages of condemnation of Israel, and nothing else about Hamas.
That is no lie, and it belies your claimed impartiality.
""

I have made dozens of similar statements you numbskull.

How many ways are there to decry the killing of twenty Israelis over a ten year period, and the firing of rockets?

Far fewer ways than you have to whitewash every action and ignore all evidence even when it comes from Israeli sources in a better position to know than you will ever be.

You just carry on absorbing only the Israeli government's side of the story. You are looking more and more bigotted and foolish.

I'll carry on waiting for you to admit that the Israeli government and the IDF have ever done the teeniest little thing wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

And you call us biased? Priceless

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 08:06 AM

Don it is no lie that you post pages and pages of outraged condemnation of Israel, and nothing against Hamas except that little disclaimer.

IDF policy is to minimise civilian casualties, and in the scale of its operations is successful.

Hamas policy is to kill any and all Jews.
The numbers it achieves are mercifully low so far, but only because all normal life and the economy of Southern Israel comes to a halt.

If Hamas called off the war, peace and prosperity for Gaza.
Hamas is responsible for all that suffering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 08:08 AM

""And yes, individual fighters and soldiers sometimes misbehave.""

And according to you individual battallions, and individual pseudo defence forces.

If you can't see that amounts to official policy, you haven't a functioning brain.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 08:31 AM

How can it be Don?
They have the means to wipe out thousands.
They choose not to.
Look at the figures Don.

There were thousands of IDF troops engaged in Gaza.
A handful make these dubious allegations.

Over a thousand targets hit inside a densely populated urban area from land sea and air.
How many thousands of civilians die?
Not even a hundred.
That demonstrates an extraordinary determination to avoid civilian casualties that no testimony by a few damaged soldiers can change.

But yes, some soldiers and fighters do become brutalised and hate filled and commit crimes.

Now what about your claims about Israel starving Gazans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM

"They have the means to wipe them out but choose to do all they can to avoid civilian casualties."
"If Hamas called off the war, peace and prosperity for Gaza."
"Now what about your claims about Israel starving Gazans?"
Lord Haw-Haw I presume?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 01:18 PM

""21 Palestinians Killed In Gaza Tuesday, 137 in last 7 days
author Tuesday November 20, 2012 23:53 author by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Report post

    Despite talks about truce and mediation, Israeli soldiers continued to bombard Gaza, Tuesday, and killed 21 Palestinians in different parts of the coastal region, while dozens of civilians have been injured. At Least 137 Palestinians, mainly children and civilians, have been killed since last Wednesday, while more than 950 have been injured.

Medical sources reported that Ahmad Abed Abu Mor, and his brother Khaled, were killed when the army bombarded Rafah, in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.

The attack happened shortly after the army killed Mohammad Abu Aisha, head of all-Quds Educational Radio. Resident Hasan Yousef died of wounds suffered earlier in an Israeli bombardment targeting DIr al-Balah.

Two residents were immediately killed in the attack; they were identified as Salem Ayesh Abu Sitta, and his brother Mohammad.

Two Palestinian journalists, working for the al-Aqsa Satellite TV, were killed earlier when the army fired a missile at their vehicle, west of Gaza City; two residents were injured in the attack.

Two children were also killed, and three were injured, when the army bombarded Kashko Street in Gaza. Another resident was killed in Beit Hanoun.

At least 950 Palestinians have been injured since the Israeli offensive on Gaza started last Wednesday, the vast majority of the victims are civilians, including infants, children, women and elderly,


1- Ahmad Al-Ja'bary, 52 years old.
2- Mohammed Al-hams, 28 years old.
3- Rinan Arafat, 7 years old.
4- Omar Al-Mashharawi, 11 months old.
5- Essam Abu-Alma'za, 20 years old.
6- Mohammed Al-Qaseer, 20 years old.
7- Heba Al-Mashharawi, 6-month pregnant, 19 years old.
8- Mahmoud Abu Sawawin, 65 years old.
9- Habis Hassan Mismih, 29 years old.
10- Wael Haidar Al-Ghalban, 31 years old.
11- Hehsam Mohammed Al-Ghalban, 31 years old.
12- Rani Hammad, 29 years old.
13- Khaled Abu Nasser, 27 year old.
14- Marwan Abu Al-Qumsan, 52 years old.
15- Walid Al-Abalda, 2 years old.
16- Hanin Tafesh, 10 months old.
17- Oday Jamal Nasser, 16 years old.
18- Fares Al-Basyouni, 11 years old.
19- Mohammed Sa'd Allah, 4 years old.
20- Ayman Abu Warda, 22 years old.
21- Tahrir Suliman, 20 years old.
22- Ismael Qandil, 24 years old.
23- Younis Kamal Tafesh, 55 years old.
24- Mohammed Talal Suliman, 28 years old.
25- Amjad Mohammed Abu-Jalal, 32 years old
. 26- Ziad Farhan Abu-Jalal, 23 years old.
27- Ayman Mohammed Abu Jalal, 44 years old.
28- Hassan Salem Al-Heemla', 27 years old.
29- Khaled Khalil Al-Shaer, 24 years old.
30- Ayman Rafeeq Saleem, 26 years old.
31- Ahmad Abu Musamih, 32 years old.
32- Osama Abdeljawad
33- Ashraf Darwish
34- Ali Al-Mana'ma
35`- Mukhlis Edwan
36- Mohammed Al-Loulhy, 24 years old.
37- Ahmad Al-Atrush
38- Abdul-Rahman Al-Masri
39- Awad Al-Nahhal
40- Ali Hassan Iseed, 25 years old.
41- Mohammed Sabry Al'weedat, 25 years old.
42- Osama Yousif Al-Qadi, 26 years old.
43- Ahmad Ben Saeed, 42 years old.
44- Hani Bre'm, 31 years old.
45- Samaher Qdeih, 28 years old.
46- Tamer Al-Hamry, 26 years old.
47- Jumana Salamah Abu Sufian, 1 year old.
48- Tamer Salamah Abu Sufian, 3 years old.
49- Muhammad Abu Nuqira
50- Eyad Abu Khusa, 18 months old.
51- Tasneem Zuheir Al-Nahhal, 13 years old.
52- Ahmad Essam Al-Nahhal, 25 years old.
53- Nawal Abdul-'Al, 52 years old.
54- Mohammed Jamal Al-Dalou, the father.
55- Ranin Mohammed Jamal Al-Dalou, 5 years old.
56- Jamal Mohammed Jamal Al-Dalou, 7 year old.
57- Yousef Mohammed Jamal Al-Dalou, 10 years old.
58- Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal Al-Dalou, 1 year old.
59- Jamal Al-Dalou, the grandfather.
60- Sulafa Al Dalou, 46 years old
61- Samah Al-Dalou, 25 years old
62- Tahani Al-Dalou, 50 years old
63- Amina Matar Al-Mzanner, 83 years old.
64- Abdullah Mohammed Al-Mzanner, 23.
65- Suheil Hamada
66- Mo'men Hamada
67- Atiyya Mubarak.
68- Hussam Abu Shaweesh.
69- Samy Al-Ghfeir, 22 years old.
70- Mohammed Bakr Al-Of, 24 years old.
71- Ahmad Abu Amra
72- Nabil Ahmad Abu Amra.
73- Hussein Jalal Nasser, 8 years old.
74- Jalal Nasr, 35.
75- Sabha Al-Hashash, 60 years old.
76- Saif Al-Deen Sadeq.
77- Ahmad Hussein Al-Agha.
78- Emad Abu Hamda, 30 years old.
79- Mohammed Jindiyya, 31.
80- Mohammed Iyad Abu Zour, 4 years old.
81- Nisma Abu Zour, 19 years old.
82- Ahed Al-Qattaty, 38 years old.
83- Al-Abd Mohammed Al-Attar.
84- Rana Ash-Shandi, 18 months.
85. Tamer Basheer.
86. Amin Basheer.
87. Salah Basheer.
88. Abdullah Harb Abu Khater (21)
89. Mahmoud Saeed Abu Khater (34)
90. Rashid 'Alyan Abu 'Amra (45)
91. Amin Zuhdi Bashir (40)
92. Tamer Rushdi Bashir (30)
93- Hussam Abdeljawad.
94- Ramadan Ahmad Mahmoud, 20 years old.
95- Mohammed Riyad Shamallakh, 23 years old.
96- A'ed Radi.
97- Ameer Al-Malahi
98- Ramez Harb
99- Salem Sweilem
100- Muhammed Ziyad Tbeil.
101- Arkan Abu Kmeil
102- Ibrahim Al-Hawajri
103- Khalil Shhada
104- Osama Shhada
106- Suhaib Fo'ad Hjazi, 2 years old.
107- Mohammed Fo'ad Hjazi, 3 years old.
108- Fo'ad khalil Hjazi
109- Mohammed Tawfeeq Al-Nassasra, 20 years old.
110-Ahmad Tawfeeq Al-Nassasra, 18 years old.
111- Ahmad Khaled Daghmash.
112- Bilal Al-Barrawi, 20.
113- Yahya Mohammad Awad, 15.
114- Mahmoud Az-Zahhar, in his thirties.
115- Abdul-Rahman Abu Hamza, 22.
115- Mohammad Bader, in his twenties.
116- Bilal Al-Barawi, 20.
117- Akram Ma'rouf.
118- Ahmad Doghmosh.
119- Sobhi Doghmosh.
120- Salah Doghmosh.
121- Ameen Al-Dod, 22.
122- Ahmad Abed Abu Mor.
123- Khaled Abed Abu Mor.
124- Salem Ayesh Abu Sitta.
125- Mohammad Ayesh Abu Sitta.
126- Ayman Rafiq Abu Rashid.
127- Saber Bulbul.
128- Tareq Hjeila.
129- Ziad Abu Al-Qaraya.
131- Mahmoud Al-Koomi.
132- Hussam Salama.
133- Mohammad Mousa Abu Aisha.
134- Hasan Yousef Al-Ostaz.
135- Mohammad Abu Sitta.
136- Salem Abu Sitta.
137- Abdul-Rahman Abu Hamad.
""

Just seven days tally by the IDF, seven times more than Hamas' ten year............Well, you work it out Keith.

And please don't try to tell me that somebody sat down and picked 137 names at random.

I will keep challenging you with facts until you recognise that Israel is not the squeaky clean victim they would have us believe.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM

For figures of deaths on both sides, the following link to "If Americans knew" is quite a revelation.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

And don't forget to add the 137 killed since that page was published.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 02:10 PM

Since September 2000

6617 Palestinians
1079 Israelis

6 - 1 looks like a bit more than ""not even a hundred Don"".

Since 2004

3414 Palestinians
259 Israelis

These are deaths of both military and civilians killed by members of the opposing nationality. Premature