2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 22 - 02:40 PM

We spent days and hours practising the material and rehearsing clsssical and brass band music [ the repertoire of the old concertina bands].
I had an appointment with Dave Bulmer once, he was uncooperative.
So i can only talk about the results of his actions, which are negative and do nothing to further peoples love and enthusisam for music

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 23 Feb 22 - 04:44 PM

Its better than nothing, but a start could be to locate vinyl versions of material lost. For example A Song For Every Season 4 x disc set. Mine is pristine, never played. A digitisd version could be sold in CD format. Copyright? Publish and be damned - so long as the artists get their %age. If the Bulmer family still have the masters - and one must assume that they haven't - then vinyl is a solution.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 22 - 04:57 PM

not if it never came out on vinyl in the first place as the master tapes were suppresed

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 22 - 06:46 PM

In Bulmer threads from the past, a number of people have said that they have pristine vinyl. In a future time, that could be far better than rotting stacks of tapes, who knows. They are potentially precious resources. But the legal eagles would be down like a ton of bricks...until the go-ahead is eventually given. Look after 'em...

Somewhere I have a copy of a copy of a copy, on a C90 cassette, of the Noah's Ark Trap. The sheer beauty of the music easily trumps the awful sound quality. I've heard tracks from that album on YouTube that are of much better sound quality. I could live with that. But let's not advocate breaking the law. I'm not sure that the artists in question would appreciate that, and I'm sure I recall Ralphie saying the same thing years and years ago.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 02:43 AM

the best thing his relatives could do , to improve the folk worlds memory of Dave Bulmer, is release the suppressed recordings

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 05:19 AM

Who will pay for it ?

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: graham_t
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 05:36 AM

I think it was his son (Calum?) who got the re-issue of Bright Phoebus blocked through legal action. This achieved nothing except to make the album unavailable again. Soon afterwards, he claimed that they intended to put out a series of albums, but of course that never happened. I don't think they even sell the CDRs of albums that they used to.

Sadly, we are now at the stage where many of the artists involved have passed away and most of the groups have split up. This probably makes it very difficult to establish who has the rights to what. That is no excuse for allowing all those recording just to moulder away, somewhere.

My guess is that they think that the effort required in re-issuing the material is much greater than the financial rewards would justify, but for some perverse reason, won't release it to someone who would be prepared to make the effort required.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 03:51 PM

I would be happy to pay for the cost of pressing of the recording i was part of, if the recordings were sent to me. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 04:28 PM

Then could you not make a polite enquiry ?

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 12:58 AM

They can approach me, I already contacted Dave Bulmer once, its their turn now.
I am organising a festival trying to encourage and promote folk musuc, I am not trying to suppress it by hoarding other peoples work.
Anonymous guest here is a polite suggestion mind your own business

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:31 AM

Bulmer's approach to the material in his possession mystifies me. It destroyed his reputation, and he can't have made much money from selling home-burned CDs on demand, especially as he made little effort to advertise them. Nobody can have benefited from this. It's very sad.

He made a lot of people very upset and angry, and given the level of vitriol against him perhaps the family want nothing to do with the folk world. If so, that too is very sad.

Perhaps in the days when publishing a recording required considerable up-front investment in manufacturing LPs or CDs Bulmer felt the financial risk might have been too great (although some of the material, including Bright Phoebus and the Nic Jones albums, could surely have been released profitably). However nowadays they can be published digitally at very little cost. If the family doesn't want to do it, I'm sure some record labels or the original artists would be interested.

By allowing these to be released his family could at last reap some financial rewards and at the same time restore the family's reputation. Lost recordings, many of considerable artistic merit and historic importance, could be made available to a new audience. Win-win all round.

What a wasted opportunity.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:38 PM

You're perfectly right Howard - it's all very sad.
It's probably all too late and any amount of fulminating on threads such as this will lead nowhere.
Any suggestions for who might be able to approach the family would be useful.
Anything else would be a waste of time.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:52 PM

anonymous guest, one suggestion might be to donate the recording of the new mexborough english concertina quartet to the the archives of the INTERHNATIONA CONCERTINA ASSOCIATION , That way no money is involved but concertina enthuisaSts can listen FREE.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 06:08 PM

Who were or are the other three members of the quartet Dick?

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 26 Feb 22 - 04:22 PM

Then why don't you suggest that to the Bulmers yourself, instead of constantly bitching about it here ? There's a second positive suggestion to you.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 05:01 AM

They can approach me, I already contacted Dave Bulmer once, its their turn now.
I am organising a festival trying to encourage and promote folk musuc, I am not trying to suppress it by hoarding other peoples work.
Anonymous guest here is a polite suggestion mind your own business

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 06:29 AM

Very happy to, when you please stop constantly bringing the subject up on a public discussion forum.
"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness" - think about it, but I think you'd far rather do the latter.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 06:54 AM

1 I did not bring the subject up.
2 I have only stuck to facts, if the truth hurts you do something about it contact the ICA and donate the master tapes to them, instead of suppressing availabilty, if you are not in possession of the tapes, mind your own business, and stop trolling

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 07:12 AM

You may not have brought the subject up Dick but you have posted to this thread on twelve occasions in the past 5 days.

I doubt if the Bulmer family are aware that you contacted Dave some time ago (given that he passed on about 9 years ago) so it is unrealistic to suggest that they should contact you.

Perhaps if you were to approach them they may release your recording.





Certainly better than bitching about it on here.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 07:20 AM

Raggytash.
Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Howard Jones - PM
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:31 AM

Bulmer's approach to the material in his possession mystifies me. It destroyed his reputation, and he can't have made much money from selling home-burned CDs on demand, especially as he made little effort to advertise them. Nobody can have benefited from this. It's very sad.

He made a lot of people very upset and angry, and given the level of vitriol against him perhaps the family want nothing to do with the folk world. If so, that too is very sad.

Perhaps in the days when publishing a recording required considerable up-front investment in manufacturing LPs or CDs Bulmer felt the financial risk might have been too great (although some of the material, including Bright Phoebus and the Nic Jones albums, could surely have been released profitably). However nowadays they can be published digitally at very little cost. If the family doesn't want to do it, I'm sure some record labels or the original artists would be interested.

By allowing these to be released his family could at last reap some financial rewards and at the same time restore the family's reputation. Lost recordings, many of considerable artistic merit and historic importance, could be made available to a new audience. Win-win all round.

What a wasted opportunity.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 09:16 AM

I'm still awaiting an answer Dick.

An email would be friendlier.

Or even a private message.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 09:35 AM

It says something about the sort of people we have here at Mudcat currently, when they have to bitch about things in a FUCKING OBITUARY THREAD for someone who died nearly 8 goddam years ago.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 09:45 AM

We're not all the same, Jeri!

Although... ;-)

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST,Groovy
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 10:46 AM

What's very strange about The Sandman's complaint is that the concertinas album wasn't released by Bulmer's label, but by Plantlife.

https://www.discogs.com/label/250554-Plant-Life

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 11:05 AM

groovy, you are wrong. there was a recording released by plant life then there was a a second recording which never saw the light of day and which is in the possesion of Bulmers FAMILY.
Malcolm Storey i sent you a private message however i have an e mail adress which is available, send me an e mail.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 11:15 AM

Malcolm Storey         new mexborough concertina quartet         26 Feb 2022 ,
evidence that i sent you a personal message on 26 feb
there are a number of uninformed people on this thread.
I am informed correctly on this matter as i was part of a group that made a recording which was later acquired by Dave Bulmer and has been suppressed

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 12:19 PM

I have never suppressed anyones recorded material,
I understod when i entered the uk folk revival in 1969 that this music was to be encouraged and promoted ,I ran a number of Folk clubs in the uk booking many people including Dave Swarbrick Ewan MacColl Peggy Seeger Martin Carthy John Kirkpatrick Nic Jones Julia Clifford Dolores Keane John Faulkner Derek Brimstone.
I have run a festival for 8 years booking Andy Irvine Martin Carthy John Kirkpatrick,Rosie Stewart Matt Cranitch JackieDaly everyone was paid their fee.
I have done a lot to encourage and promote folk music
Dave Bulmer has suppressed a considerable number of peoples music ncluding Bright Phoebus and the Nic Jones albums and a recording that i was involved in.
It is perfectly reasonable that this should have been brought up by someone else] in his obituary.IT HAPPENED.

Malcolm Storey check your personal messages, you owe me an apology
Groovy, get your facts right before you post on here

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 12:44 PM

I mention the above because there was a post by an American woman, which cast aspersions on the charcters of those[ including me] who posted about Dave Bulmers business dealings.
I can sleep at night, I have never mistreated anyone on the folk scene everyone, has always been paid ,if you dont believe me contact Andy Irvine.
mean while Nic Jones[ whose music has been suppressed can no longer perform guitar or fiddle because of a car accident, those people that have a go at me, think on that

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST,anonymous
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 12:56 PM

I have to agree with jeri above. I won't add anything further to this thread.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 01:11 PM

Dick Miles sent me a personal message.
Why didn't I think of that?

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 04:38 PM

Dave may have died 8 years ago, but his business dealings are still affecting the uk folk revival in a negative way.
Honesty, is more important than rewriting history.
Imagine you were Nic Jones unable to play, hard up financially with your music suppressed, and you disapprove about mentioning it on an obituary thread, I suggest politely you get your priorities in order

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 01:02 AM

This thread is the correct place to discuss Dave Bulmer, we have an obituary [living tradition] quoted, which glosses over his business dealings We have an anonymous mmber called Raggytash suggesting I contact the Bulmer family this is unbelievably naive.
The simple truth again with people like Dave Bulmer was you do that and the price trebles., that is how capitalist business money orientated people think.
Meanwhile Nic Jones is unable to perform on guitar and fiddle in his old age, has his music suppressed, this has been going on for over 30 years. the recording that i was part of was made in 1986, in that particular case 42 years.
Jeri   your outburst tells us a lot about you . Obituaries SHOULD tell the truth , NOT PAINT FALSE PICTURES

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 01:08 AM

quote from the obituary
Publicity wasn’t his style; his first love was the music.

It probably isn’t widely known that Dave Bulmer also acquired the rights to material from a number of small record labels who had recorded other aspects of British culture including various recordings of Brass Bands. Dave wasn’t a collector in the sense of a Cecil Sharp or a Peter Kennedy, but he had amassed a vast amount of material in his stores."    The music HAAS BEEN lost it ha beens suppreSsed for 40 years

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 01:19 AM

if his first love was the music, why is all that material unrelesed

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 01:49 AM

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: Howard Jones - PM
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

At the time Bulmer acquired the catalogue from Leader it would have been much more risky to release the albums. Vinyl was relatively expensive to produce, and if I recall correctly the minimum run was 1000 copies. Unless he had the pressing masters these would have had to be remastered. I can understand that he would have been cautious about going for a full release, especially as Leader had failed to make a success of it. Nevertheless, having acquired the catalogue I am surprised he did not do more to try to recoup his investment.

Times have changed, it is now far easier and cheaper to produce CDs. When my band made an album a couple of years ago we paid £826 for 500 CDs, including VAT. These were double CDs in jewel cases, with colour inserts and cellophane-wrapped, and delivered. That's £1.65 per copy which we sell at £12. CM would have additional costs for digital remastering, MCPS royalties (only payable on copyright tracks) and CM's own overheads, but most of the other significant costs of recording had already been paid by Leader.

I'd be very confident that Bright Phoebus, the Nic Jones albums and quite a lot more could easily sell at least 500 copies. Of course some of the catalogue may not sell even that number, but it is very cheap to make digital copies available online eg through Bandcamp where people can purchase whole albums or individual tracks. Whilst these sell for less than a physical CD, the costs are less so the margins may even be higher.

I could never understand Dave Bulmer's approach, which did not appear to be in his financial interests, let alone the damage it did to his reputation (he had been well respected as a musician and for his publications of Irish tunes), the damage it did to the musicians involved, and to the wider folk world who were unable to get hold of some important recordings. It appears his beneficiaries may now be considering releasing some of the catalogue, so they would have seen the unauthorised release of Bright Phoebus as particularly damaging. QUOTE
2 YEARS LATER still unreleased

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: GUEST,Iains
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 02:52 AM

"The (alleged)Evil That Men Do Lives After Them; The Good is Oft Interred with their Bones"

Very true! But is this obituary thread the correct forum to denigrate the man?

It is not very edidying and demeans the entire site!
Time this thread was buried.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 03:07 AM

no, time the truth is told
Dave ,Suppressed the music of Nic Jones a man injured in a car crash who can longer play music because of his injuries , that is the truth that is one of the things Dave has done, these are facts,
no one is denigrating him we are telling the truth

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 03:12 AM

Norma Waterson has just died she was part of the recording of Bright Phoebus,
THERE HAS OVER 3 YEARS AGO BEEN LITIGATION WHICH HAS PREVENTED THIS FROM BEING RELEASED.
These are the facts of the business dealings of his family. no denigration but simply the truth

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 03:14 AM

Time this POS thread was closed.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 05:44 AM

It's perfectly understandable (and very important in my opinion) that the subject of the missing music is kept alive, but it's also perfectly understandable that, once old muckers of Dave Bulmer wade in to say what a good bloke he was (it is an obit thread after all, though something grates when mates of his studiously ignore or try to defend what he did) there's going to be negativity. I don't agree that we should treat an ancient thread with kid gloves just because it started off an an obituary thread, so OK, it's gone sour and maybe the brake should be applied. But there is a just cause here and it isn't going away. I'm not going to pretend that I admire Dick's modus operandi, but it's a good fight he's fighting, one that could perhaps be fought in a more measured way. Easy, tiger...

And there's too much we don't know: do the recordings still exist, are they still any good, do his family know where they are, do they know anything about what's going on, would they know what to do even if they did know, have they dug in because of all the criticism, hence the silence... So we just keep on rattling around... :-(

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 05:49 AM

Steve, The Sandman et al,

Why not just start a new thread about the subject of Dave's dealings?

It's perfectly reasonable to air grievances and discuss the situation re unreleased material but there's no need to do it on the obituary thread.

Then everyone is(reasonably) happy.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 06:08 AM

Whether the original masters still exist and are in playable condition isn't really the issue. In many cases people will still have vinyl copies, and I'm sure most people would accept a less than perfect sound quality if it meant the music could be made available. The problem is the publishing rights, which for reasons best known to themselves the Bulmer family apparently neither wish to use themselves nor negotiate licences for others to do so.

I never met Dave Bulmer, but by all accounts he was a respected musician and I'm quite prepared to believe those who did know him who say his interest in the music was genuine. Which makes his attitude all the more baffling.

He had published a series of books of Irish music, which were very valuable sources of material at a time when not much was widely available, and had it not been for the issue of these recordings he would have been remembered for this contribution and would have left a positive legacy. As it is, his legacy is very different, and this issue cannot be ignored. Whether this thread is an appropriate one on which to discuss it is a matter for the mods, but the controversy will continue wherever we discuss it. People, and not just the artists directly affected, are justifiably angry that a huge part of our music's heritage has been lost.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 07:19 AM

It is extremely naive to suggest that the Bulmer family should contact you Dick.

They have probably never heard of Dick Miles and I'm pretty sure they will not know of the New Mexborough Concertina Quartet and a "niche" recording from 37 years ago.

They have little, if not nothing, to gain from finding the recording, re-mastering it and re-releasing it.

You, on the other hand, seem to want to do so. I would suggest the ball is firmly in your court.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 07:50 AM

I think yours is a good post, Howard. Agree with all that.

I have got any particular personal grievance to air, Johnny. I feel for the artists who are the victims, I admire many of them and think that their music should be out there. Mostly, they were/are not businessmen/women, unlike Dave Bulmer, a dimension oft forgotten. As for this being an obituary thread, there is no rule that we have to avoid criticism on such threads (it's happened on a number of obituary threads here without attracting much comment), and it has been a long time after all...

I'm now making a dignified exit from this thread. I don't think it should be closed but I do think that opinions can be aired respectfully.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 07:52 AM

"Haven't got," dammit.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 08:23 AM

OBITUARIES should be truthful,ONLY the truth has been stated in my posts, I have not denigrated any body.Ihave not denigrated him as a musician. I have only commented on his business dealings
Dave Bulmer certainly knew of me and the NEMCQ. I am sure his family know their catalogue.
I do not need your advice,Raggytash.
Nic Jones is now an old man who is unable to play guitar or fiddle
I did not start or restart this thread, but as someone who has been involved in making a recording that has been suppressed for over 30 years ,i have a right to continue to draw attention to it on any thread concerning Dave Bulmer and to draw attention to the other people who have had their music suppressed, and to make new people aware of the results of his business dealings

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 08:57 AM

the following letter has been sent to the Editor of Living Tradtion, it will be intersting to see if it is published
quote from the obituary
"Publicity wasn’t his style; his first love was the music.

It probably isn’t widely known that Dave Bulmer also acquired the rights to material from a number of small record labels who had recorded other aspects of British culture including various recordings of Brass Bands. Dave wasn’t a collector in the sense of a Cecil Sharp or a Peter Kennedy, but he had amassed a vast amount of material in his stores."
The music HAS BEEN in effect lost, it has not been released for 40 years. I made a recording with The New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet in 1986 this has been acquired by Dave Bulmer and is unreleased . I understand that music by Nic Jones an old man who can no longer play is also unreleased and owned by the Bulmer Family.
If his first love was the music, why is this material unreleased

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 08:59 AM

I agree, Steve, artists’ music should be available for publication, not secreted somewhere in someone’s dark, dusty safe.

Has anyone actually approached the Bulmer family? That would seem to be the sensible approach, rather than just pissing, moaning, and venting on an obituary thread on an insignificant, little-known Internet forum.

I don’t believe that the “I want something from you, but it’s up to you to contact me about it” type of approach is likely to bear any fruit whatsoever.

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 09:07 AM

Back woodsman. I approached Dave Bulmer and got nowhere, I found When dealing with him, that his instinct on being approached was to put the price up. why dont you approach his heirs?
if you feel it is not your business , i understand, and would suggest that if you dont want to approach his heirs, perhaps you should leave the conversation

Subject: RE: 2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 10:20 AM

Someone's trying to emulate Burke and Hare. Talk about hyenas and jackals? Compared to some folks, they are civilised.