BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 10:32 AM

The Hezlyer Conference is just an annual event run by the IPS think tank.
" IPS conducts policy research on a broad analytical scope to identify evolving issues and trends and to assess emerging risks and opportunities. Concentrating on Middle East politics and Israel's foreign affairs, IPS also invests in innovative methodologies and policy analysis focusing on political/strategic risk assessment and management."

"pro Israel nodding dog."
Steve is also pro Israel. She has family in Israel.

That seems to be the only thing you have against her, and it is nothing.
Stop persecuting her with your baseless claims.
Why are you doing it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 10:45 AM

It is obvious from this, and other posts, that your understanding of English is at variance with the rest of the people who speak the language.

However this will be clear enough for you to comprehend. You lied about calling me antisimetic and you are lying now and you will continue to lie.

Yet another failing to add to the many.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 10:58 AM

"The Hezlyer Conference is just an annual event run by the IPS think tank."
So anybody can walk in off the street to a think tank conference addressed by a leading government figure - must remember that next time I'm passing through Westminster!!
"Steve is also pro Israel. "
Is he really - don't understand that one at all!!
"That seems to be the only thing you have against her, "
I have linked her to the Israeli propaganda campaign to prevent the boycott of Israeli goods from spreading - which is what this is all about.
If you can't see the racism in targeting
Why do you always defend Israel's atrocities - without exception?
For instance, you are probably about to tell us they don't commit any
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 12:26 PM

Rag, I said your double standards for antisemitism and other forms of racism were antisemitic, but instead of accusing you of antisemitism I just asked you to explain it.
I have never accused anyone of antisemitism.

Jim,
So anybody can walk in off the street to a think tank conference addressed by a leading government figure

Anyone with an interest could attend. Not "off the street." That is not how conferences are organised.

"Steve is also pro Israel. "
Is he really - don't understand that one at all!!
Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 08:28 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being pro-Israel. I'm pro-Israel myself and I've said so here many times.

I have linked her to the Israeli propaganda campaign to prevent the boycott of Israeli goods from spreading - which is what this is all about.

Of course she is against a boycott targeted at Israel. I am sure most Israelis are too!

You accuse,
"Both Ms Smeeth and Michael Foster are Pro-Israeli activists defending the war crimes of a terrorist State "

"with links to the American Security Services."

"She has been described as an anti-Palestinian racist".

You have produced nothing to support any of that shit.
She was mentioned here only because she has been a victim of vile, antisemitic abuse, and your response has been to join in with it.
Why are you doing this to her?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 12:30 PM

Why do you always defend Israel's atrocities - without exception?

I have never defended any atrocity.
Will you quote me doing so?
You can't!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 12:40 PM

"I have never defended any atrocity."
Denying they happened is defending it - you really aren't claiming you don't do that, are you?
Not enough space here to give all the examples of that
We watch it on tele - you deny it seems to be the routine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 01:44 PM

What Israeli atrocity have I denied?
There are two sides to any story.
I just give theirs.

Why have you embarked on a campaign of smears, none of which you can substantiate, against abuse victim Ruth Smeeth?

"Smeeth attended the conference, as I sated - that for me, is enough to link her with the pro Israel campaign"

So what? Like Steve she is pro-Israel.
She has family there. What is wrong with that?

"She supported Netunyahu' racist slur of the Palestinian people"

How do you know she supported it?
What was the racist slur? Quote please.

"She is also an employee of a group whose job it is to attract the elite to supporting the Israeli regime"

Details and evidence??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:34 PM

"What Israeli atrocity have I denied?"
Last word
The Israeli army facilitated assisted covered up the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - they provided and transport for the killers and allowed them access into the camp, standing by and doing nothing for three days and nights - when refugees attempted to escape they were turned back by Israeli soldiers
The army provided illumination for three nights so the massacre could continue, uninterrupted by darkness.
DOver three days, unarmed men, women and children were slaughtered, the women were raped and then had their throats cut by their killers - those who were pregnant were disemboweled and their unborn children were ripped from their wombs.
At the end of the massacre, the army supplied transport to the airport to enable the killers to escape, provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, and eventually built a sports stadium over the mass graves so the exact number of deaths could never be calculated.
Israel's own enquiry declared Arial Defence Minister Arial Sharon personally responsible for the massacre; he initially refused to resign as and the then Prime Minister, Menachim Begin refused to fire him.
He eventually reigned, yet after a period of inaction, he was appointed Prime Minister and remained in that post until ill-health forced him to quit, hereby giving Israel's official blessing for his part in the massacre.
You have denied this ever since I first raised it some years ago and will almost certainly do so again, now.
That a big enough atrocity for you?
Plenty ore where that came from - we haven't touched this century yet!
Anyway - game over.
Let's clear the ring, wipe up the blood and let those who wish to continue do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:45 PM

Right, Keith here's what Wadsworth said at the Chakrabarti report launch.

"I saw that the Telegraph handed a copy of a press release to Ruth Smeeth MP so you can see who is working hand in hand. If you look around this room, how many African Caribbean and Asian people are there? We need to get our house in order." (There's a video of him saying this on the Independent website, by the way).

Got that, Keith? Now. Here's what Smeeth said in response to that.

"I was verbally attacked by a Momentum activist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter who used traditional anti-Semitic slurs to attack me for being part of a "media conspiracy". It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories against Jewish people."

Now what I would like you to do, Keith, is pick over what Wadsworth said and tell me precisely, no smears, generalisations or slurs now, what was antisemitic about what he said. You may wish, of course, to bear in mind that he said he didn't know she was Jewish. I actually think that makes no difference one way or the other. Come on, Keith. Which of his words were antisemitic and why do you think so?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM

Apropos of the Daily Mail, Teribus, I confess that I too resort to it, about once a fortnight. What a dreadful rag it is. I get mine free with my Waitrose card as long as I spend at least five quid (I recommend the own-label Spanish Mellow and Fruity red). My removing it from the shelf serves two noble purposes, to reveal to me the horrors of the mass-circulation tabloids and to release at least one unfortunate from getting their hands on a copy. It should be renamed the Daily Bumwipe. I could get the Guardian instead but I already have that at home. My only other option is the Times. Pass the sick bag, somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 04:53 PM

When dealing with T-Bird, Bubo, and The Professor it may be appropriate to recall a proverb of long standing:

"He that wrestles with a turd is sure to be beshit, whether he fall over or under."

[ That is, he that contends with vile persons will get nothing but a stain by it. ]

             REF: A Compleat Collection of English Proverbs. John Ray, London, 1737



Thus, as it ever was...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:41 AM

Steve Shaw - 07 Sep 16 - 03:45 PM

Basically a cut'n'paste of Craig Miller's blog.

Only thing about that Shaw is that that was not everything Marc Wadsworth said was it? That is only what was filmed. Please explain why the recorded reaction of the rest of the audience to what Wadsworth was saying was so marked. Please explain the reaction of the man sitting behind Ruth Smeeth' left shoulder "That's anti-Semitism at a conference about anti-Semitism", shortly after Ruth Smeeth walks out he and someone who looked like BBC News Deputy Editor John Pienaar also walk out?

Marc Wadsworth's later conversation with Corbyn where he talks about him "outing Smeeth talking to the Torygraph".

If nothing anti-Semitic was said why did Shami Chakrabarti apologise personally to Ruth Smeeth on behalf of herself and Jeremy Corbyn for what had been said and what had happened?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:19 AM

Steve, Wadsworth said much more than you just quoted.
The Party suspended him for antisemitism.
Take it up with the Party not me.

Jim,
There were a few massacres in that camp, all by Arabs.

The Israeli army facilitated assisted covered up the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees

No. They facilitated and assisted an Arab militia to go in and take on fighters in the camp.
You need flares to do that at night.
You do not need flares to murder civilians in their homes in a crowded camp.
The massacre was in daylight.

The massacre was committed by Arabs.
The Israelis moved in and stopped it.

Israel's own enquiry declared Arial Defence Minister Arial Sharon personally responsible for the massacre;

Only indirectly responsible, in that he should have foreseen the risk of a revenge massacre.

All that stuff about bulldozers and stadia and thousands of victims is wild propaganda.
No evidence for any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:26 AM

"here were a few massacres in that camp, all by Arabs."
Then the Israelis didn't do what they did -
No fighters were found in the camp
This is exactly what I refer to with your re-writing history in order to get the Israelis off the hook.
You have the facts, you either deny or ignore them.
Thanks for making my point so well Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:59 AM

No fighters were found in the camp

Yes they were. Some are shown in Robert Fisk's video.

You put the version of events presented by Israel's enemies.
I put Israel's side of the story.
What is wrong with that?

Did any decent liberal democratic country hold Israel responsible for that massacre?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:07 AM

They were verbatim quotes, Teribus, not some reinterpretation. I'll leave you and Keith to that sort of Wheatcroftesque trickery. 😂

Ok, so nothing antisemitic in the quote I gave you then. But you both declare that he said more. So what was it he said, then? Put up or shut up. What words did he use that were antisemitic? Not someone else's body language, not no smoke without fire, not someone unconnected with the exchanges talking over someone's shoulder, not a fake flood of tears and staged storming out by a woman who is an avid supporter of the Israeli regime, boycott-opposer and prime mover in the UK pro-Israel lobby, not Pienaar allegedly walking out (are you sure he wasn't going for a lash?), not a kiss and cuddle from Shami. The words. You wish to tar Wadworth with the antisemitism brush. Antisemitism consists of using hate-WORDS. What were those words then? What do you know that we don't? You both hate the Labour Party, so isn't it odd that when it just so happens that Labour does something that appears to fit your personal agenda they suddenly become all sweetness and light and purveyors of the sword of truth? What a pair of comedians you are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:18 AM

Keith
You are the Pro Israeli equivalent of a Holocaust denier, and every argument you put up on the subject of Israel and where the Israeli regime is involved such as it's attempts to malign the Labour Party, had to be seen in that light.
Here, you are appeasing the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented.
That is just about as low as any (would-be, in your case) human being can sink to.
The fact that you do so so crudely, shamelessly and consistently, makes you what you are and your behaviour gives us an insight into what the Pro-Israel mob is - appeasers of mass murder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:20 AM

That's a serious accusation to make, Jim. Unfortunately, it's deadly accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:51 AM

Incidentally, I have searched the web in vain for confirmation that Wadworth was denied Labour membership for antisemitism. That's what you have clearly told this forum, Keith. Please verify that from a first-hand official Labour source.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:03 AM

Jim Carroll - 08 Sep 16 - 06:18 AM

"you are appeasing the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented."

Only problem with that statement Jom is that the 3,500 number is an unverified estimate. No investigation into the numbers killed was ever allowed by the Lebanese Government let alone completed, therefore it would be impossible for anything related to these killings to ever be fully documented as you claim.

Source:

https://un-truth.com/tag/sabra-and-shatila

Extract:

"In terms of casualties, no census of the dead has ever been attempted {That is a bit different from what you are stating as an absolute fact isn't it Jom?}. In the days following the massacre, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and other relief agencies collected the bodies and disinterred the shallow graves, giving survivors the chance to identify relatives. But efforts to establish lists of the dead soon fell victim to the priority of 'national reconciliation'. Bashir Gemayel's brother Amin was elected president of the republic on 21 September (with the Muslim deputies this time participating in the vote), and the Phalange role was soon downplayed or even ignored, exclusive blame being placed on Saad Haddad's men and Israel.

"After going through the motions in October of appointing a commission of inquiry, whose findings were never released, the subject of the massacre was virtually dropped. Any effort to collect names became virtually taboo, to the point that the ICRC has never published the names it did collect, and those conducting field work on the subject had to do so with extreme discretion. Such was the climate that even death certificates became almost impossible to obtain.

"Nonetheless, there were a number of estimates in the days following the massacre. According to official Lebanese sources published in mid-October 1982, 762 bodies had been recovered in Sabra and Shatila: 212 unidentified bodies reburied in mass graves, 302 bodies identified and cremated by local rescue teams, and 248 identified and buried by the ICRC. In addition, according to the same sources, about 1,200 bodies were claimed and buried by their families.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:22 AM

Does whether there were 35 or 3500 change the fact that a massacre took place.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:23 AM

Steve,
You wish to tar Wadworth with the antisemitism brush.

No. It was the Party that suspended him for antisemitism, and I am sure they had good reason.

Jim,
Here, you are appeasing the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented.

No investigation held Israel directly responsible, and there is nothing "documented" that says they were.
You had to go back over thirty years, and you still have nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:49 AM

"Only problem with that statement Jom is that the 3,500 number is an unverified estimate. "
It is unverifiable because the Israelis buried the bodies and built a sports stadium over the mass graves to ascertain that the exact figure would never be known.
The transient nature of these refugee camps makes it possible that the actual figure might be higher than this.
Not a problem, as far as I'm concerned, a massacre of unarmed people at this level is a crime against humanity comparable to the extermination of the Jewish people in everything other than numbers.
Why should it matter that there were ONLY 3,000 0r 2,000, 1,000 unarmed civil and massacred?
The massacre was carried out with the full co-operation of the Israeli Army - not just by them standing by and doing nothing, which would have been a crime anyway, but by them supplying access, transport, weapons and illumination.
A bit sick to suggest "but it might have been only...", but par for the course for you people and very, very reminiscent of the arguments put forward by David Irving and his ilk in order to excuse the massacre of the Jewish people by the Nazis.
I'm sure that you will continue playing your numbers game though - what else have you, other than Keith's outright denial?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 09:01 AM

You're being evasive, Keith. I have been unable to verify from any Labour source that he was denied membership "for antisemitism." Now either you know different AND CAN GIVE ME THE OFFICIAL SOURCE or you're making it up. I'm quite open-minded on this and don't mind if you can prove me wrong. You're very keen to bollock people for saying unsupportable things. So, evidence please that he was expelled "for antisemitism." And no more evasion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM

Jim,
The massacre was carried out with the full co-operation of the Israeli Army

No it was not. It was the Israeli Army that stopped it.

but by them supplying access, transport, weapons and illumination.
Those things were supplied to facilitate the removal of Palestinian fighters from the camp.
There was no opportunity after the massacre for anyone to hide and bury bodies. The world's press and numerous NGOs were there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:39 AM

Steve,
"Mr Wadsworth today expressed regret for any offence caused to Ms Smeeth and revealed to LBC radio that he had been expelled from the party due to "media reports"."

The only media reports concerning Wadsworth at the time was his behaviour towards Smeeth.

"This is something I'm going to challenge and I'm getting a lot of Jewish support."
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/76810/ruth-smeeth-heckler-expelled-labour-party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 11:11 AM

"No it was not. It was the Israeli Army that stopped it."
Now you are lying in the face of facts Keith
The Israelis facilitated it in the manner I have described - there is no question of that.
"Those things were supplied to facilitate the removal of Palestinian fighters from the camp."
Don't be completely stupid - if you are going to defend thuis atrocity, at least make an effort
The killers were transported TO the site in Israeli vehicles
The weapons weer supplied before they began the slaughter
The lighing was provided over the three nights of the massacre
The withdrawal from the site took place in broad daylight in the middle of the morning - what the **** did they need lights for?
Eye witnesses, including the American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves.
Despite the seriousness of this incident, the Israeli Government refused to hold an enquiry until 400,000 thousand Israeli citizens took to the streets (the largest public protest in Israel's history) demanding one
You really are a sad excuse for a human being
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 12:08 PM

Jim Carroll - 08 Sep 16 - 08:49 AM

"It is unverifiable because the Israelis buried the bodies and built a sports stadium over the mass graves to ascertain that the exact figure would never be known."

So in the middle of a military operation under the eyes of the World's Media, the Lebanese and the redeployed MNF the Israelis succeeded in transporting, storing all these bodies and then excavating a mass grave and building a Sports Stadium over the site??? What is the name of this Stadium and where is it located? The nearest to the Sabra and Shatila part of Beirut is the Camille Chamoun Stadium, the largest in the country - only thing wrong with that Jom?

The Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium was built in 1957, it was destroyed in 1982 and rebuilt 1997 and finally reopened 1998?

By the way Jom - "to ascertain" something is "to find something out" it does not mean "to make sure".

"The transient nature of these refugee camps makes it possible that the actual figure might be higher than this."

The transient nature of these refugee camps??? Are you kidding you mug they have been a permanent stain on the landscape of the region since 1948.

Palestinian Refugee Camps

Stop making idiotic ridiculous claims and exaggerated emotive assertions that do not even stand up to the most cursory examination.

The massacre of unarmed civilians in the Shatila and Sabrs refugee camps was NEVER fully investigated and documented - FACT.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM

And that's supposed to be your proof that he was expelled "for antisemitism," is it, Keith? When are you going to learn that you will always be found out when you don't tell the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 01:01 PM

Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 01:21 PM

Tells a great deal more about his lack of inelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:51 PM

The Israelis facilitated it in the manner I have described - there is no question of that.

They could not facilitate what they did not know would happen.

Eye witnesses, including the American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves.

No she did not.
She saw the dozer levelling ground by the camp entrance, in full view of the main road and the Kuwait Embassy.
She saw no bodies being buried.

The lighing was provided over the three nights of the massacre
Two nights Jim. The first night the nurse (Siegel) said the camp was silent. "No screaming, no cries for help, no human sound, nothing."

The second night she slept.

what the **** did they need lights for?
To identify fighter's and their positions.
You do not need flares to massacre civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:55 PM

Steve,
And that's supposed to be your proof that he was expelled "for antisemitism," is it, Keith?

It is proof Steve. He said he was expelled because of "media reports" which were all about his antisemitic outbursts.
Those reports included full video with sound of the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.
Those Arab countries who forced the refugees in camps to the second and third generation, denying them citizenship and employment rights.
Meanwhile Israel, on its tiny sliver of land, accepted and integrated many times more refugees than all those in the Arab's camps.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:32 PM

WHAT THIS PAIR ARE SUPPORTING
AND THIS
AND THIS
"Stop making idiotic ridiculous claims and exaggerated emotive assertions that do not even stand up to the most cursory examination."
And you produce evidence for uyour disgustingly inhuman denialks
Atrocity denying in the face of evidence at its very worst
The Sabra Shatila massace is a done deal - the Israeli's facilitated it, armed the killers, illuminated the killing, helped bury the bodies, and gave the killers safe passage out of the country.
All documented and fully accepted except by the atrocity deniers - and every claim backed up by produced evidence on this forum.
The response arrogant strutting denial and two people who never produce anything else.
Where is youir evideence - either of you (or don't you need eveidence again, as you have claimed in the past?
Jim Carroll
WHERE ISRAEL STANDS IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS LEAGUE

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

And what precisely was in those those " media reports," Keith? Can you quote me one "media report" that concluded without fear or favour that he made antisemitic remarks? No you cannot. The "full video with sound" contains nothing even remotely antisemitic. You are living in a dream world, Keith. Wadworth has spent most of his life campaigning against discrimination against minorities and is vehemently opposed to all forms of racism, including antisemitism, and has worked alongside Jews to fight prejudice. He said he didn't know that the highly-disreputable and dishonest Smeeth was Jewish. You don't believe him. Tough shit. Maybe we'll get him on the NEC then you'll have to believe him! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 07:38 PM

And I must say, Keith, that your lying denial of what happened at Sabra and Shatila is far and away the most revolting, disgusting and hate-filled bile that I've ever seen on this website by a country mile. You make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:13 PM

the most revolting, disgusting and hate-filled bile

That's our Professor!

vide 07 Sep 16 - 04:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM

To Shaw and Greg F.

In answer to your posts:

Keith A of Hertford - 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

"Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?"

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.

Thank you Keith saved me the trouble.

The so called "Leaders" of the Arabs of Palestine, and the governments of so called "friendly" or "allied" neighbouring states have deliberately kept and held the "Palestinian" refugees in camps, in poverty and in despair to be used as they see fit as political pawns and a source of revenue from which they make millions - take a look at the personal fortunes amassed by Yasser Arafat and by Mahmoud Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM

To Shaw and Greg F.

In answer to your posts:

Keith A of Hertford - 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

"Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?"

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.

Thank you Keith saved me the trouble.

The so called "Leaders" of the Arabs of Palestine, and the governments of so called "friendly" or "allied" neighbouring states have deliberately kept and held the "Palestinian" refugees in camps, in poverty and in despair to be used as they see fit as political pawns and a source of revenue from which they make millions - take a look at the personal fortunes amassed by Yasser Arafat and by Mahmoud Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 03:40 AM

Refugee camps as they are, are a stain on the Landscape
Refugees should not be housed in mud-swilling, tent-town slums for months or even years on end, and certainly not be subject to massacres as the residents of Sabra-Shatila were.
Please don't attempt to feign concern for people who, you have declared, have no right to the homeland they have been driven out of and whose decimation you have attempted to defend at the hands of the Israelis.
You and your fick friend would have to fill in application forms in order to be even considered human beings.
Keith had denigrated and undermined the rights of refugees (including those who have been forced off Traveller sites in Britain and have become Britain's own home-grown permanent refugees) and you are no different.
Here, both of you have attempted to open a long-settled debate in order to defend the perpetrators of the mass-murder of people you pretend to have concern for (don't think I've ever come across anything quite so stupid as 'it wasn't a massacre because we don't know how many were killed'.
You want to see a "stain on the landscape" - look at Calais, populated by refugees fleeing being slaughtered by despotic friends of Britain, (often by arms and equipment sold by us) in wars we have helped instigate.
If the Arab nations have done what you claim - it is exactly what we are doing now by refusing refuge to those fleeing oil wars and slavery-level poverty - also assisted by western greed.
If wartime Britons of the past had treated the fleeing Jews the way we are treating today's refugees. there would have been a few more digits added to the six million who died then.
These camps are not only "stains on the landscape" - they are living and ongoing proof of the inhumanity of the wealthy nations.
Your smug finger-pointing at third-world nations for doing what we are doing just about sums you up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:05 AM

Jim,
All documented and fully accepted except by the atrocity deniers

It is not accepted by any decent democratic country, and certainly not documented.

Steve,
Smeeth accused Wadsworth of antisemitism, and that is what all the media reports were about, and the party expelled him for it.

Keith, that your lying denial of what happened at Sabra and Shatila
I am just giving Israel's version of events, which all decent governments have accepted.
There are always two sides to a story. You give the version promulgated of Israel's enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:48 AM

..promulgated by...

You two are being very nasty and personal. Try to be objective.
I do not deny the'82 massacre, but like all the massacres in those camps it was perpetrated by an Arab militia.

I have not told any lie. If you accuse please substantiate.
Jim has lied.

"American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves."
She reported nothing about graves.

" the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented."
No document or investigation has found Israel directly responsible.

They acknowledge indirect responsibility as the controlling force in Lebanon at the time, and that the danger of a revenge massacre should have been foreseen.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM

You must be the only person in the world who thinks that the massacres were carried out by an "Arab militia." Absolute racist nonsense.

So Ruth Smeeth, with her fake tears and staged walkout (yes there were witnesses to that), Ruth Smeeth who is one of the leading lights in the pro-Israeli regime lobby in this country, Ruth Smeeth who campaigns to get boycotts of Israeli goods lifted, Ruth Smeeth who dearly wants Jeremy Corbyn out, called Wadworth antisemitic for remarks that made no reference whatsoever to Jews, and you believe her. Wadworth, a lifelong campaigner against all forms of racism and discrimination, who didn't know she was a Jew, on the other hand, simply must be antisemitic in order to fit your agenda, even though he's worked alongside Jews to fight antisemitism. I want you to tell me about a direct Labour source that says he was EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM, your words Keith, not "because of media reports." As we all know, your idea of a "media report" is generally a shabby right-wing reinterpretation of the facts. You won't find a source because there isn't one. In other words, you're a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM

And you demand objectivity from everybody else whilst continuing to burble on about "decent democratic countries" as though there's some objective measure of what that's supposed to mean. You're a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM

"It is not accepted by any decent democratic country, and certainly not documented."
Not ths again
Tell me one country that has ever disputed Isreal's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre
This is the most stupid and dishonest defence of State terrorism I have ever come across - POLITICIANS SILENCE - YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING!!
"She reported nothing about graves."
She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact
If the Israelis didn't bury them - who did - the killers were off the site within hours of the massacre, the refugees didn't bury them otherwise the whereabouts would have been discovered
The missing corpses is stated as a reason for there being no final figure on the massacre BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS BURIED THEM TO HIDE THEIR CRIME.
"No document or investigation has found Israel directly responsible."
The McBride Commission said they were probably guilty - Their own eport absolved themselves from major blme
Human rights enquiries and eye witness accounts have confirmed Israel's culpability
Not one reputable, independent group has absolved Israel from this massacre.
The let the killers in, they provided arms, they turned escaping refugees nback into the clutvces of the killers, they provided lighting for three nights, they provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, they drove the killers to the airport
That is total implication in a mass murder.
If any of the things on this list are not true - please provide liinked evidence that they are not.
If these things do not show that Israel co-operated in the mass murder of 3,500 unarnmed refugees, prove it does not
Your disgusting denial of this in no more than that - denial, making you an atrocity denier.
You asked for proof that you support mass murder - ther - you have it AGAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 09:09 AM

Steve,
You must be the only person in the world who thinks that the massacres were carried out by an "Arab militia." Absolute racist nonsense.

Arab militias Steve. An historical fact. Which of them do you doubt and I will give you chapter and verse.

I want you to tell me about a direct Labour source that says he was EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM,

He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim.
I am sure you care as little for what I believe as I do you, but the Labour Party does not believe his protests and denials.
He is still suspended.

burble on about "decent democratic countries" as though there's some objective measure of what that's supposed to mean.

I am sure everyone else understands it to mean liberal Western democracies such as EU states, Canada, Australia, Scandinavian states, etc.
Now you understand my shorthand too.

Jim,
Tell me one country that has ever disputed Isreal's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre

See above Jim. No decent state would continue friendly relations with a state they thought guilty of such an atrocity.

She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact

No. She reported a single bulldozer by the camp entrance moving earth.
It is a made up lie to say "the help with digging the graves is a known fact." It is no such thing.

Human rights enquiries

Huh??

eye witness accounts have confirmed Israel's culpability

"Eye witnesses" frequently lie against Israel.
Remember the nurses on the Marmara who "saw" Israelis throwing bodies into the sea?
Remember the "witnesses" who "saw" bodies being trucked out of Jenin?
All lies

Not one reputable, independent group has absolved Israel from this massacre.
No decent democratic country holds them responsible.

You asked for proof that you support mass murder - ther - you have it AGAIN

There is no such proof. You certainly have not produced anything that challenges Israel's version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 09:15 AM

Steve, its past time you abjured turd-wrestling. Jim ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM

The murders at the camps were carried out by Lebanese Christians under the gaze of the IDF. "Arab militias" is a completely disingenuous and wilful misrepresentation and you know it. You are trying to divert the blame for the Palestinian deaths at the camps on to their own side and away from the then Israeli regime. That is revisionism no less immoral than Holocaust denial.s

As for this:

"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim" [sic], "he himself" DENIED Smeeth's egregiously false and trumped-up charge of antisemitism. Is there nothing you won't lie about?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:19 AM

"Is there nothing you won't lie about?"

The simple answer is no.