BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 05:33 AM

The Militant,

"BY JONATHAN SILBERMAN
LONDON — A rise of Jew-hatred as the capitalist crisis deepens, combined with years of the left's repetition of anti-Semitic slander — often under the guise of supporting the Palestinian struggle — is fueling turmoil in the British Labour Party."

"But anti-Semitism is no "side issue." And Labour's turmoil is not the product of a smear campaign, but of its toleration over years of anti-Semitic slanders and the promotion of open Jew-haters, along with demonization of Israel and campaigns for Israel's destruction.

Shah shared a Facebook posting in 2014 that read, "Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict — Relocate Israel into United States." The posting stated the "transportation cost" would be less than three years' worth of Washington's support for Israeli defense spending."

" Left-wing papers, including Morning Star, Socialist Worker and Socialist, have joined the denial chorus."
http://www.themilitant.com/2016/8020/802050.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 06:17 AM

Well, that may be your kind of paper, but it ain't mine. Ridiculous and desperate, Keith. Jesus, what will you resort to next. The article you link to is full of unsubstantiated smears and out-of-context remarks, even calling Livingstone's remarks antisemitic, which they are clearly not. "Promotion of open Jew-haters and campaigns for Israel's destruction" my arse. You chose to quote those bits, Keith, so presumably you think they have substance. So can you name me an open Jew-hater or two in the Labour Party, or give me details of a Labour campaign to destroy Israel? And yes, I am aware of suspensions. But are they antisemites, Keith? Can you tell us which ones (names, please), and, crucially, what they've done to earn the description? Clearly you're a scholar of these things. I want to hear what YOU say, Keith, not some disaffected Blairite, a right-wing paper, your Islamophobic trolling ally or some wacky ultra-left nitwits. Or are you just going to remain a member of the smear brigade? Stop looking for dirt for a minute, Keith, and just for once confront these challenges to your credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 07:33 AM

Keith, don't get sucked into his nasty little game of discrediting the source and not the content of any info you provide. The legitimate sources are only those that see the charge of anti semitism as a conspiracy by the Jew controlled media, banks and governments.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:06 AM

Bobad, dear boy, do look at Keith's "source," then tell us truthfully whether it's your kind of thing. Please do. Google yer man's name. I did! Laughable. Written by a bloke who wants a Cuban-style revolution in the UK. Che's numero uno fan. He's also, well, rather a little too pro-Palestinian for your taste, I imagine. You OK with that? Always worth a quick bit of research before you wade in, eh? Up the revolution, comrade! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:08 AM

Incidentally, Guest-misreader, I did focus closely on the content Keith quoted. Have a look. Or maybe go to Specsavers first!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:25 AM

The Militant is no "disaffected Blairite, a right-wing paper!"
It is an international socialist magazine linked to the Socialist Workers Party.

Can you tell us which ones (names, please)
No.
and, crucially, what they've done to earn the description?
No.
Clearly you're a scholar of these things.
No, but there is plenty of testimony from people who are, that this is a real issue, and I do not believe it is all a conspiracy against lefties.

You clearly do believe that, and you have closed your mind to the obvious truth of it, so let's leave it there.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM

"don't get sucked into his nasty little game of discrediting the source and not the content of any info you provide"


So basically then, it's unfair for us to query the validity of propaganda being used by enemies to discredit your 'own side'...???

.. so goes the logic of unreasonable embittered old fanatical dogmatists.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM

Corbyn is so determined to have an independent investigation into the charges of anti semitism in his party that he appointed a labour party member as chairman of the inquiry.....lol.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:45 AM

" our 'own side' " - oops.. hit submit instead of preview

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:02 AM

From an NPR interview with Jonathan Freedland, columnist for The Guardian on the question of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

"So I've been really clear that criticism of Israel is completely fine. And as you say, I've dished it out myself and do. So that's not what's being discussed here. Rather, what's being discussed are two things. First is criticism of Israel that comes dressed in the garb of traditional anti-Jewish language or imagery that would be familiar to any anti-Semite long before there even was an Israel, so notions of Jewish conspiracy or Jewish control of the media or Jewish responsibility for all the world's problems and misfortunes. So that's one form.

And then the other is a criticism of Israel's right to exist, which again I think there is a way of arguing that that is completely legitimate. And there was always a tradition of anti-Zionism among Jews too. But nevertheless is framed in such a way that is applying to Israel a standard (ph) that would not and is not applied to any other country. And there too by making this exception of Jews saying they are the only people in the world who are not allowed the right of self-determination, then too there can be a question of whether a line has been crossed. So I think those are the two areas. And in this recent controversy about figures within the Labour Party, it has been both of those that have come up."

NPR

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:50 AM

There is the world as it objectively 'is'.

There is the world as it is 'understood' and theorised by multivarious opposing fundamentalist factions.

This is a world of endless conflict and cruelty........

There are the millions of ordinary families who only long for a peaceful productive safe and secure life for themselves and their future generations.....

These are always the first to suffer
when old men blinded by hatred and vengeance unleash their young indoctrinated testosterone & adrenaline crazed fighters for the cause....


... apart from all that, it's quite a nice sunny day here in south west england.. 😎

Got to go get a train to sort out the problems caused by overworked Drs and clinic admin workers
who have left my old mum with incorrect medications for the next 4 weeks.. 😣

No Labour party will ever attain perfection, but at least I'd hope the NHS would be in better shape
under a Labour Govt inspired by Corbyn's positive social welfare legacy...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 10:29 AM

You still haven't been to Specsavers, have you, cowardly-trolling-outed-ex-anonymous Guest? Jonathan Freedland is explaining to the interviewer WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED. He is not saying that the Labour Party is antisemitic. He says what I've said from the start, that there may be a few rotten apples. As for who should investigate, well who would you suggest? The police? An all-party committee? No crime has been committed as far as we know. So who? Come along, I want to know! Oops, sorry, I forgot that neither you nor Keith are ever capable of answering questions or backing up your assertions. I like Jonathan Freedland a lot. But when he says "And then the other is a criticism of Israel's right to exist, which again I think there is a way of arguing that that is completely legitimate" I profoundly disagree with him. Israel is a reality that has been with us for almost seventy years and no-one has the right to suggest that we dismantle it. The state of Israel consists of millions of Jewish, Arab and neither-of-the-above families who are largely blameless for the political situation. Our aim should be to make it a secure, peaceful and fair homeland for everyone who lives there. The policies of the latest and previous regimes militate against that, sadly. I don't care what my allies in these threads think about that, to me that discussion is destructive and should be off the agenda. I want the Israeli regime to behave much better, to stop its racism towards Palestinians and to have its military aid made conditional on that. Once that happens, the threats from outside will cease. Everyone has an interest in peace, security and prosperity that trumps war and human rights abuse every time. These constant, perverted attempts by supporters of Israel to turn Jewish people back into victims are deplorable and they get in the way of a peaceful solution. They actually hurt the people they are supposed to be supporting. And you two are the worst offenders on that score here by a country mile. And at least one of you calls US "Jew-haters."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 16 - 02:41 PM

I always back my assertions Steve.
If I have missed one, please point it out.

My only case here is that Labour Left appears to have a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, which has been highlighted not by me, Bobad or the Right Wing press, but by Labour members themselves.

It came to my attention because it was a leading story in all the broadcast media at the time.
I do not believe it is all a conspiracy.
You believe what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 03:13 PM

You are anti-Labour and you are very much pro-Israel, a sycophant in fact. You've made a Big Thing of this in this forum because you want to have an opportunistic dig at the Labour leadership, just like the Israeli regime, their lackies in the media, bitter Blairites and the right-wing press over here. Nothing seems so sweet to you right-wingers as an apparent split in the Labour Party and you are going to make hay. As with any major organisation, Labour, the Conservatives, UKIP, the Beeb, the executives of multinationals, the Catholic Church, the NHS, the armed forces, the police, you name it, there are likely to be a few extremely misguided souls who may either harbour antisemitic sentiments or operate their vocal cords on the matter while their brains are still at home. When you sat in your pew last Sunday, you can bet your life that a bloody good smattering of those around you hated Jews/Muslims/blacks/immigrants. Maybe all four in some cases. Christian religions have been institutionally antisemitic for centuries. Let's hear you having a go at THEM, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:02 PM

That would be lackeys. My spelling was lacking accuracy as I was proceeding lackadaisically with too much alacrity, alas and alack.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:27 PM

That reminds me, repeats of "The Good Old Days" have started on BBC4...

We're watching 2 from the early 70s on catch up

Georgia Brown is excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:51 PM

The term "Georgia Brown" has never been the same for me since I heard Sweet Georgia Brown played on YouTube by a chugging tractor...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 16 - 04:59 AM

I did not make a big thing of this Steve, and I am not impressed with your resorting to nasty personal attack instead of discussion.


My only case here was that Labour Left appears to have a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, which has been highlighted not by me, Bobad or the Right Wing press, but by Labour members themselves.

Vent your spleen on them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:11 AM

You made a Thread of it, at a time of heightened Media boosted Labour bashing...

Which is an open invite for all sorts of reactionary anti labour nutcakes to vent their spleen and the entire contents of their bowels and intestines..

Honestly, that's not exactly a tiny thing now... is it...???? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 09:35 AM

PFR.....do you not think that you are way off beam here?

Keith's remarks were correct, this is really about an internal war in the Labour Party turn your guns on them. They really are a heap of shit......Ok I gave Jeremy Credit for trying to change things, but how can we respect someone who has spent his life railing against the "undemocratic" EU and now stands with Osbourne and Cameron to save it.
This should be a "red line" for him if anything is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 16 - 10:32 AM

Ake - have I ever said I expect Corbyn to be the next Labour Prime Minister...

I was as surprised as anyone else that he won the leadership contest, and immediately stated at the time
the blairites would be out for any opportunistic excuse to undermine and discard him...

That much is an obvious negative divisive undercurrent in the Labour party

Whether that amounts to an 'internal war' or just antagonistic business as usual for cynical egotist careerist politicians..
it's open for debate...

[Personally, I think Corbyn is too much of a quiet tolerant gent with the bitterites..
He should have been tougher and kicked some of the ring leaders out..]

What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,
and anyone else who fancies a chance to get a sly kick in to Labours head, to force as big a destabilising division as they could get away with
in the run up to elections.

So, I do think I'm as close enough to the beam as any well informed and experienced observer of the political shit heap can be...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 11:16 AM

I am not resorting to personal attack, and that is simply your way, as ever, of sidestepping the challenges I put to you at 03.13 pm yesterday. You ARE opposed to Labour, you DO resort to quoting from right-wing media and pro-Zionist sources, you ARE a sycophantic supporter of the Israeli regime - and I would add also that you have very little understanding of what antisemitism actually entails, hardly surprising when one considers your sources of propaganda. Telling it like it is is not a personal attack. It's displaying the kind of straightforwardness and honesty that I've tried to get you to embrace in this thread, so far to no avail as you, and your friend bobad while we're at it, have failed to answer a single question or rise to a single challenge put to you. And it is sheer hypocrisy to jump on this dogged anti-Labour bandwagon when there is so much racism, often of the institutionalised kind, far worse than anything in the Labour Party, in some of the organisations you've spoken up for in the past, UKIP and the Christian churches, for example. Your agenda in this thread is all too transparent, and we are not fools.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 16 - 01:02 PM

" Telling it like it is is not a personal attack. It's displaying the kind of straightforwardness and honesty that I've tried to get you to embrace in this thread"

Is that some kind of joke? Straightforwardness and honesty are bigotry and ignorance when they don't fall in with your way of thinking.   You are the hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 16 - 03:10 PM

You don't understand this issue. And just wait until the next time you pontificate about how you never stoop to calling people names.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 09:02 AM

No surprise that they still invoke that old anti semitic trope.

SUMMARY: "Almost half of members in Britain's Labour party think the organization has no problem with anti-Semitism and believe a recent row on the issue has been confected by the media."

[read Jew controlled media]

Newsweek

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:19 AM

Almost half who think there's no problem means that more than half do think so. I'm a member and I do think there is an issue that needs to be investigated and resolved. I wonder what the pollsters would have made of that response. We'll never know because they didn't ask me. And why "read Jew-controlled media?" Can you justify that extrapolation by referring to any remark you've read anywhere that could have had truckloads of Labour members thinking "yeah - the only media who blew this lot up were the media controlled by Jews"? You told us to read that into it - now justify it. Carry on like that and you'll be an embarrassment even to Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:40 AM

Bobad - why are you so obsessed with jews controlling everything.. ???

.. because you're the only poster to this thread who has repeatedly and consistently resorted to dragging up this old over simplistic prejudiced 'myth'...????? 😕


FACT: the entire world does not revolve around the real or imagined problems of Jews and Israel..
no matter how much you might like it to be;
or how many decent folk you accuse and attempt to discredit as antisemitic,
because they do not acquiesce to your ideologically bigoted fundamentalist doctrine.


I don't think I've ever encountered you before this thread, so I started off with an open mind as to what kind of person you could be.

Now after several days, and many posts, I can't help thinking you might be more than a touch irrational and deluded...????????

I certainly am no longer able to take you seriously.



To put this into perspective:

Ake is a man who I very often disagree with.
I am aware he is intensely disliked by other 'left wing' mudcatters for his purported views on certain important issues.
Yet, I still find aspects of him that I can't help respecting, and almost admire.

Keith, is on a completely different wavelength to me,
We rarely if ever agree at all.
But he is one of our traditional British reactionary 'eccentrics' and at heart probably a fairly decent chap.


You on the other hand now seem to me to have no redeeming characteristics, or credibility whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Btw.. It took me about 20 minutes to preview and post due to mudcat [server ?] availability problems.

I wrote that post unaware that Steve was posting along similar lines.

Now that's an interesting coincidence......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 01:08 PM

Bobad - why are you so obsessed with jews controlling everything.. ???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:46 AM

bobad - you may think you are being cleverly ironic / sarcastic...

.. and whilst genuine neo n@zi halfwits would agree with you without any doubt in their thick thug skulls;


..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..

Israeli intelligence agencies have never [allegedly] been too restrained in taking their covert fight onto the soil of other friendly nations...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 01:58 PM

yeah... so... ???

You can't be that naive or so in denial, as to entirely discount such a reasonable suspicion of the way 'real world' covert politicking exists and operates......???

Or can no jew or Israeli do any wrong as far as you are concerned...?????

Seriously, would any sensible person believe Jews own and control the entire world's media ?...... 😣

So, why do you keep up with that stupid tactic to mock anyone here who queries the validity of your extremist position......????? 😣


============================================================


Btw.. this thread has motivated me to look into my Jewish bloodline family tree again..


It's been traced back as far as the 1780s in central Poland.

What photos still exist, it's interesting looking at the faces of strangers who are somehow part of me.

It'll be good memory therapy for my old mum asking what she can recall of her jewish father and his family back in the 1930s
before he disappeared from her life....


I wonder if I'm the grandson of a good or a bad man... or if he was probably merely a bit of both ...????

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 16 - 02:08 PM

Steve,
You ARE opposed to Labour, you DO resort to quoting from right-wing media and pro-Zionist sources, you ARE a sycophantic supporter of the Israeli regime

None of that is true.
You may be anti-Tory, but I used to vote Labour under Blair.
I am not right wing and do not quote from right wing media. You made that up.
I mostly quote from Guardian and Independent.
Never from "pro-Zionist" sources. You just make shit up Steve. Why?

As you and others put the Palestinian case, I have put the Israeli case.
Why does that make me a "sycophant" but not you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 03:00 PM

Well Mr. Punk, it seems that you are the one who is convinced that there is some big conspiracy being perpetrated against the labour party, a conspiracy for which you have not provided a shred of evidence by the way. And you say I have an extremist position. I can appreciate why you have now resorted to personal attack.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 16 - 03:30 PM

yeah.. yeah.. yeah...

... got any other worn out tactics in your arsenal....?????

It's a good job we are both sensible and diplomatic enough to make plentiful use of the word "seems"... 🙄

By the way it's not a very competent 'big conspiracy'... it should at least be a bit better concealed...!!!???... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 05:38 PM

This man who accuses us of making personal attacks is the same man who hid behind the anonymity of "Guest" so that he could call some of us, from behind that wall of anonymity, Jew-haters. He claimed that he needed anonymity so that we would have to address the issue, not the man. Yet, from that position of anonymity, he called us Jew haters. The real shame is that he is still here at all (defended, naturally, and disreputably, by Keith). On any other website that I'm a member of, anyone faking multiple identities, as he has done, would be instantly expelled. When you think he did it in order to make anonymous attacks, it looks ten times worse. Still, it's not our gig, and Joe Offer told me that he and Max are fine with people expressing obnoxious views. Yes, Joe, that's what you told me. Don't make me prove it, please. That people like me, Dave and Musket are the usual suspects, pains in the arse, etc. But never mind that, obnoxious viewpoints freely expressed are just fine. Attacking them can, however, get you banned. All you need to do is to lack tactics and diplomacy.

Do you think I'll get away with this? I doubt it. If I disappear, look me up on the Session or the Gaughan forum and we can keep in touch.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 16 - 08:04 PM

From the obsessiveness and fragility you've been displaying in your posts lately I would think Bedlam is where we should be looking for you if you disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 16 - 09:51 PM

So no denial of your profound dishonesty and cowardice then. Why would I ever have expected that. And fragile I am not. Why would a searingly honest man, set alongside a pusillanimous coward such as yourself, feel "fragile"? Not me, mate. My only weakness in dealing with dreadful people like you is that the seriously-misguided moderators here are far more likely to back you than me.

I accuse you, in the certainty that I'm right, of being the long-time anonymous coward-Guest who hid behind the cloak of anonymity in order to call us Jew haters. I challenge the moderators here, who have the golden opportunity of getting rid of you on grounds of faking multiple identities, to close your account and see you off for good. It would be a small but relevant step in maintaining the good name of this place. Obviously, I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:14 AM

Steve, no obnoxious views have been expressed here.
If they were, why not just refute them?

All that stuff I refuted was personal.
It was about me, not Labour.
Likewise all your accusations against Bobad.
Why do you do it.

I think that if you could make a case, or defend your position, you would.
You go personal because you can't.

Pfr,
What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,

There is no conspiracy. It all came from within Labour.
No one outside Labour sees Corbyn as a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:55 AM

Huffington Post is not "right wing press."

"Labour is facing a fresh row over anti-semitism after the party failed to publish a full report into claims of misconduct by Oxford University students.

Baroness Royall's inquiry into Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) found no evidence of "institutional anti-semitism", but she stressed that the party faces "difficulties" in providing a "safe space" for Jewish students.

And the former Cabinet minister made clear in a blog that "there is too often a culture of intolerance where Jews are concerned and there are clear incidents of antisemitism".

In a hint that her own conclusions had been misrepresented by the party, Baroness Royal told the Jewish Labour Movement that she shared its 'disappointment and frustration' that her findings of incidents of anti-semitism were not getting enough attention."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 03:56 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/baroness-royall-oxford-university-labour-club-anti-semitism-jeremy-corbyn-anti-zionism_uk_
Updated yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 06:01 AM

"Likewise all your accusations against Bobad.
Why do you do it."

Absolutely typical piece of denial by Keith. Puts him firmly on the side of the bigots and racists. Do some work, Keith. Go through every one of his posts in this thread. Then come back and still tell me there's no case. Do you condone the secret use of multiple identities, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 07:01 AM

"Pfr,
What's happened in the last couple of weeks is a clear attempt by right wing media, tories, Israeli regime supporters,

There is no conspiracy. It all came from within Labour.
No one outside Labour sees Corbyn as a threat."

Keith - Think what you want to think... it's your thread after all...

Mudcat tech problems are making following this thread to much of a chore.
It takes far too long waiting for the thread to open and stabilise,
only to have to put up with you and Bobad ignoring what we have previously written
and repeating the same things over and over again.

I have enough of that in the real world since my mother was diagnosed with dementia.

The same conversation several times a day because nothing I need to say or explain sinks in...
day after day after day,.. it's mentally exhausting....... 😩

Your dogmatic denials and accusations regarding the Labour party are becoming the equivalent
of my mother constantly asking where her bus pass is, and what day is it today....

Sorry, if you take that as an insult, or me resorting to personal abuse.. but there you go... I'm exhausted...

I tries to remain patient staying on topic and addressing the thread topic issues.
But you refuse to listen and understand.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 07:14 AM

Real life comes first Pfr.
Good luck with your trials.

Steve, whatever you may think of contributors, just respond to the issues they raise.
Attacking them as people is against the rules, so why do you keep doing it?

Why not just challenge what they post, and make your own case?
What is the problem?
You do have a case?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 08:37 AM

only to have to put up with you and Bobad ignoring what we have previously written and repeating the same things over and over again.

Kind of like this eh Punk:

I would point to the above quote from pro Israeli academic / activist"David Hirsh" posted by bobad,
which serves very adequately to reinforce my 'suspicion' that a network of bloggers and well funded 'think tanks/research groups'
are constantly monitoring and cataloguing every social media post by problematic individuals they regard to be anti israeli...


Someone, somewhere needed to dig up those old social media statements by 'the MP' Naz Shah and bring them to high profile media attention
so close in the run up to elections.....


I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,
who have lobbed truck loads of mud with the desperate intent that some sticks...


this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 09:18 AM

Cheers keith.. always reassuring to know folks are are real human beings behind the mudcat nom de plumes and often theatrical constructed personas... 😎


Bob - that's Mr Punk if you don't mind... though 'Pfr' is always ok...

I've just missed a train to visit my mum to sort her meds out, so have a few spare minutes...

I think I can guess at the point you are struggling to infer....???

What I said in your 'quote' is reasonably well considered and clearly meant. It still stands...

Make note and remember.. I said "pro Israeli Government regime supporters" - I did not ever say "Jews".

I since discovered the individual professional political blogger
who unearthed the Naz Shah quote and set the ball rolling...

He is a desperate mercenary attention seeking tosser who does this on an industrial scale to benefit his own personal bank balance.

Right wing media depends on this kind of freelance 'researcher' to create stories for them.

This story was an ideal opportunity to set up a hostile anti labour attack in time for the elections.

All and sundry with a grudge against Corbyn in particular, and Labour in general, could jump on board make a hasty opportunistic meal of it.

.. including pro Israeli Government regime supporters, and anyone else more than happy to attack Labour
at a time when the party is attracting a massive new sign up of grass roots members..

many of these new members being muslims...

Draw your own conclusions....

well Bob, you already have anyway.. even before I started writing this post... ????

so you have a good head start..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 16 - 09:51 AM

"Steve, whatever you may think of contributors, just respond to the issues they raise.
Attacking them as people is against the rules, so why do you keep doing it?

Why not just challenge what they post, and make your own case?
What is the problem?
You do have a case?"

Oh yes, I have a case all right, and it's writ large all through this thread. Bobad/anonymous Guest does not "raise issues." He snipes, attacks and name-calls. You are not brave or honest enough to to do as I suggested this morning, trawl through all his posts in this thread. And if attacking worries you so much, where were you in those threads in which he anonymously called perfectly fair-minded and reasonable people "Jew haters?" You were never far away, Keith. It's about time you made an honest man of yourself. You could start by reminding yourself of Pastor Niemoller's famous quote. By the way, you called Richard an antisemite on May 8. Which he is patently not. Thst was a personal attack and a name-call. And a lie. What have you to say for yourself, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:03 AM

So Punkie, still no evidence for your conspiracy theory. Now you're playing the anti Muslim card. This is getting better every day. Looking forward to the next installment.

I said "pro Israeli Government regime supporters" - I did not ever say "Jews"

Sure Punkster, just like these guys:

Rik Little If I can I stay away from preloaded titles like Jew. It wastes too much time arguing with idiots. I say Zionists or AIPAC worshipers.
13 hrs

David Blomstrom The problem is that "Zionist" doesn't include Jewish bankers, the Jews who control the media, etc. A better term is actually "Jewish Mafia," but I still often use "Jews" simply because the Jewish Mafia is so big.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:27 AM

Steve,
By the way, you called Richard an antisemite on May 8. Which he is patently not.

He did make an anti-semetic statement.
I said this about it.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:01 AM

Richard, I am sure you deny your antisemitism even to yourself, but it was revealed in your post where you accused the EUMC board members, mostly Jewish, of having a "vested interest" in widening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Livingstone and others also deny their antisemitism, but there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:29 AM

So Steve, I was responding to an actual point made by Richard in an actual post.

I did not attack him for perceived personal failings, as you do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:34 AM

I wish what I say was just a fanciful entertaining 'conspiracy theory'...

Very sadly, it's all too grounded in reality and truth....

As well you know.... 😠


You really are revealing yourself to be a nasty piece of work..

Off you go again.. as expected..

.. manipulate and distort, cynically misconstrue, and discredit anyone who stands up to you.. that's all it 'seems' you are capable of...

"wrong-foot
(verb) to wrong-foot someone means to manipulate the situation to make an innocent person look bad, guilty. or inept.
Often used by sly people to deflect the blame they deserve onto someone else"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Bob - .. and 'deflecting'.. that's another of your 'sneaky' tactics.....

Attempting to dictate the terms of engagement so that your opponent is momentarily defused
by having to waste breath and energy defensively refuting your slanderous accusations of antisemitism,
rather than pursuing their valid line of arguments against your pernicious invective..... 😣