BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 12:42 PM

Ruth Smeeth is a charlatan, a liar and an arch anti-Corbynite who is out to make trouble for him by any means, including foul. We have been over all this. You are out of order bringing this up again. You've already made yourself a laughing stock over this issue, so do yourself a favour and drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:08 PM

Can't open the link, but it sounds like desperation to me
She is what she is, she consorts with and supports CORRUPT and PROMISCUOUS politicians like Netanyahu.
Would you buy a used car from this woman?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM

Same here. Evening bloody Standard anyway. Kind of glad I couldn't open it. Useless. Talk about scraping the barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM

Greg, alt-right/alt-left = two sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM

Not so, Bubo, but do keep up with the same old delusions. Makes it easier to ignore you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:19 PM

Steve,
Ruth Smeeth is a charlatan, a liar

Can you substantiate your wild accusations?
No.
You are just running with the pack that is persecuting this woman.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:21 PM

Paste in this link.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-antisemitism-in-labour-like-this-its-normal-now-a3349201.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM

Not so, Bubo, but do keep up with the same old delusions.

This from Keith's link on Ruth Smeeth:

Given her previous work with Hope Against Hate, an anti-racism charity, "I initially assumed [the author] was from the far-Right. And then someone rang to inform me it was a Corbynista."

Same bigotry, different target - you're the one who's deluded. No surprise though as you identify with this group.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 04:28 PM

Ruth Smeeth is persecuting Corbyn, who she hates, with lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics. You know something Keith? You HATE the Labour Party. You LOVE to seek out the "liars," the "hypocrites," the "lefties," the "antisemites" and everyone else you think you can find negatives about. Yet when you think you've found someone, no matter who it is, no matter how much they lack principles, who says the slightest thing that suits your twisted and hateful agenda, you embrace them as if they've been your lifelong friend. Well Keith, she's LABOUR. Get it, Keith? She's one of your enemies. You're a solid member of the far right, remember? You can't have her. She's as nasty as everyone else in Labour to you, Keith! So why don't you just bugger off, you massive hypocrite. I repeat. Smeeth is a charlatan who is doing everything in her power to diss Corbyn. Because she's a liar who MAKES UP SHIT, she will not succeed. Obviously, you can't see it as you're politically totally blind. You have form on that score as we all know. Totally incapable of seeing two sides of any issue. You are a troll for raising this dead issue yet again. And PLEASE don't give me your bloody Evening Standard tabloid shite. I've laughed enough at you already and the corset shop is closed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:46 AM

Jim Carroll - 21 Sep 16 - 11:46 AM - If memory serves me correctly there were equally "convincing" stories told in the aftermath of the so-called "Jenin Massacre". The only thing that spoilt that particular attempt to smear Israel's reputation was that over the course of the following five months all those the IDF were accused of killing except for one turned up alive, safe and well. Yet Fatah apologists still yammer on about the hundreds "killed" or "murdered" by the IDF in Jenin. You are doing the same with regard to Sabra-Shatila, you are taking the highest possible body count that is always mentioned as being an unverified "estimate" then taking it as being a fact - plain truth is it is not a fact according to links you yourself have provided.

Bulldozer Jom;

Bulldozer



- Note it has a straight or slightly angled blade, it can push stuff but can't pick anything up

- Even if fitted with a scoop or a bucket, it has no means of tilting or tipping that scoop or bucket to empty it.

So back to the questions that you yourself should have asked had you been of an inquiring mind:

1: If as your "eye-witnesses" stated no Israelis entered the camps who was it operating these bulldozers?

2: As bulldozers are incapable of digging holes, who was it that dug these "secret" mass graves, when were they dug and what was used to dig them?

3: You claim, or believe claims that a "secret mass grave" exists in Beirut that contains the bodies of the majority of the 3,500 people you believe were slain. You believe that a Sports Stadium was built over this grave. The only stadium that could possibly be is the Camille Chamoun Stadium, here is some relevant information for you Jom -

"The stadium was completely demolished in the Israeli Invasion of 1982. Consequently, former Lebanese PM Rafic Hariri {1992 to 1998} initiated a project to rebuild the stadium in preparation for the 2000 AFC Asian Cup. The reconstruction received funding from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, with a respective contribution of 20 Million and 5Million U.S. Dollars. The other 75 Million U.S. Dollars were provided by the Lebanese government. The renovation process of the bordering "Pierre Gemayel Hall" was also included in the overall project.

Designed by Laceco Architects & Engineers, the stadium spans 50,000 square meters of space with 77,000 square meters of covering roofs and seven kilometers of fences. A presidential gallery of 37 seats towers over the pitch, fenced off by bullet-proof glass. In addition to a 600 square meter parking lot was built underneath the stadium and another 20,000 square meter lot outside. The structure is capable of absorbing earthquakes up to 8.6 degree on the Richter scale. Moreover, administration offices, a complex for Lebanon's Olympic committee and various other sports federations, ultra-modern press centers, clinics to handle emergencies among players and spectators with a parking lot for ambulances and fire engines, have been built beneath the stands.

An indoors sports complex north to the stadium was built with a 3,300-strong spectator capacity for basketball, volleyball and gymnastics. This part was scheduled to be completed by 1998.

Kvarner, the contracting company, says that 25 British and 115 Lebanese engineers toiled along with 850 Lebanese and Arab workers to rebuild the sports city that was originally inaugurated by the late president Camille Chamoun in 1957.

After the reconstruction, the stadium hosted the 1997 pan Arab games where the Lebanese president Elias El Hrawi delivered an opening speech saying: "From Lebanon we say to the world; the Lebanese have returned to their heritage and unity, they have returned to build a Lebanon for heroes, youth and peace." The Lebanese PM also delivered a speech saying: "Construction won over destruction, and peace over war." Finally, the president of the Pan Arab Committee said: "This is a tournament of solidarity between the Lebanese people who have established credibility in their country and given rise to this great sporting event". "Bombs can destroy a city but can never shake the faith of believers." Additionally, the stadium was the main venue for the 1999 Arab Championship, the 2000 AFC Asian Cup, and recently the sixth Jeux de la Francophonie held from September 27 to October 3 of 2009.

In 2015, however, to serve the Lebanese team during the 2018 FIFA World Cup qualification, the stadium is once again rebuilt.

Still think that there is a "Secret Mass Grave" under this Sports Stadium - it is after all the only Sports Stadium in the vicinity of the Sabra-Shatila Camp.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM

Still nothing but opinions - no evidence whatever to back up your claims.
The exaggeration of Jenin was exposed immediately - the facts of Sabra/Shatila have been a established for decades.
Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry.
Even the role the Americans played in covering up this massacre has been long established, by American Human Rights Groups - it's all been put up.
It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours.
You seem to be so egotistic (or simply too lazy or inept) to even bother putting up real evidence; you rely entirely on strutting bullying (rather like the somewhat inadequate Wizard of Oz who hid behind a screen with a large megaphone).
If you have anything new to add, do so.
The New Sports stadium is yet another smokescreen - it has been cited as a probable site for the bodies, nothing more.
It seems to be the only straw you have to grasp now that your bulldozers have driven off into the sunset.
If you have any evidence that this massacre didn't happen, or that the Israeli role wasn't as it has been described, or that Israeli didn't appoint the individual their own enquiry cited as being responsible, Prime Minister of Israel, and by doing so, giving their blessing for the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees, then present it.
So far, you have offered somewhat pathetic denials, with nothing whatever to back them up - nothing!
I really am not interested in your blustering opinions, but I would be fascinated if you produced a single scrap of evidence to back up your claims instead of your bullying and strutting bluster.
In the meantime, I'll quite happily accept your display of arrogant ignorance, after all, that's the image you seem happy to present to the world.
Carry on corporal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM

Steve
Ruth Smeeth is persecuting Corbyn, who she hates, with lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics.

More wild accusations that you can not substantiate Steve.
The police and the parliamentary authority do not act on lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics.

She is anti-Corbyn, but so are 80% of Labour MPs.

You're a solid member of the far right, remember?

No. I am a middle of the road former Labour voter, and hope to be again.

Because she's a liar who MAKES UP SHIT, she will not succeed. Obviously, you can't see it

The police and parliamentary authority can't see it either.
You wild accusations against this woman are the made up shit here Steve.

You are a troll for raising this dead issue yet again.
That would be Greg Steve.
And the Standard piece is all quotes of Smeeth. No editorial spin. It is genuine.

Jim,
Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry.

There is the israeli version of events, which is infinitely more credible than the wild propaganda you believe, and which all decent governments accept without question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:47 AM

"There is the israeli version of events,"
Quite -
Since when has "we didn't do it guv" amounted to a challenge?
Nobody outside Israel has ever challenged the facts of the case.
Even Israel's own verdict is invalid as it appointed the person it found culpable Prime Minister
You do not give such a position to somebody you have found guilty of a crime unless you support that crime

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM

1: "Still nothing but opinions - no evidence whatever to back up your claims."

Well Jom, anybody's "estimate" of anything is "nothing but an opinion" - to declare it as a fact that 3,500 people were killed you must have 3,500 bodies, so your sources have expressed their opinion and they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to back up their claims - if you doubt that then read in detail what has been stated in the links that you yourself have provided - I have merely pointed out the inconsistencies in the stories told.

2: "The exaggeration of Jenin was exposed immediately - the facts of Sabra/Shatila have been a established for decades."

No it was not, it took about 5 to 6 months for the lies about Jenin to be exposed for what they were. Compare the stories and "eye-witness" testimony about Sabra-Shatila and Jenin and there are clear similarities, they got away with the lies in the former because the ground was not in Israel, in Jenin the ground was and remained under Israeli control.

3: "Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry."

The ICRC and the Lebanese Authorities in Beirut established clearly {Surveys undertaken by 17 different organisations and agencies did not put the death toll at anything like the 3,500 you claim}. The Israeli Inquiry into the events at Sabra-Shatila were harder on what was perceived as being the Israeli role in what happened than any other Inquiry carried out at the time. But all detailed that at no time did any members of the IDF enter the camp - so who was driving all those bulldozers Jom? Your eye-witnesses are very shaky about that.

4: "Even the role the Americans played in covering up this massacre has been long established, by American Human Rights Groups - it's all been put up."

Simply more opinion Jom. It was the Lebanese who drew a line under any investigation in the interests of reconciliation - no American cover-up, no Israeli cover-up.

5: "It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours."

That's a bit of a joke Jom, you have consistently proved beyond all possible doubt that you have absolutely no idea what documented historical fact is.

6: "You seem to be so egotistic (or simply too lazy or inept) to even bother putting up real evidence; you rely entirely on strutting bullying (rather like the somewhat inadequate Wizard of Oz who hid behind a screen with a large megaphone)."

What evidence Jom, you certainly do not have any, neither do those you link to and quote. Rather weird that what you refer to as "bullying" is in fact nothing more than your attention being drawn to the glaring inconsistencies and flaws in your arguments that you simply cannot address, which is why if either myself, Keith A or bobad put up detail you cannot counter or challenge it - If we were just making things up it would be easily refuted.

7: "The New Sports stadium is yet a nother smokescreen - it has been cited as a probable site for the bodies, nothing more."

Not exactly true that is it Jom - IIRC it was YOU who stated as though it was an established fact that the numbers required to make up your mythical 3,500 body count had been buried under a sports stadium by the Israelis in "secret". I merely asked you to name the stadium and explain how on earth it could have possibly been done under the glare of media interest prevalent on the scene at the time. Your response to this was as usual, deflection, bluster and personal attack.

8: "It seems to be the only straw you have to grasp now that your bulldozers have driven off into the sunset."

Not at all Jom, and besides IIRC they were YOUR bulldozers, I merely pointed out to you that you cannot excavate a mass grave in secret in a populated urban area with that type of machine. You have yet to explain how it could be done.

9: "If you have any evidence that this massacre didn't happen"

I have never made any claim that the massacre never happened. I have said that there is no proof that 3,500 people were killed, as you have always bandied this figure about as though it were a fact - it is not, it is an estimate that differs wildly from all others conducted and verified at the time.

10: "that the Israeli role wasn't as it has been described"

You have always stated that the IDF was directly responsible - it wasn't and both Inquiries, one International and one Israeli, make that clear, the closest they come to it is a statement to the effect that the IDF must shoulder some responsibility for probably being indirectly responsible for what occurred.

11: "that Israeli didn't appoint the individual their own enquiry cited as being responsible, Prime Minister of Israel, and by doing so, giving their blessing for the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees, then present it."

As Minister of Defence at the time I believe that they sacked him or forced his resignation. Him then winning a subsequent democratic election and becoming Prime Minister is not connected in any way to the events that happened in 1982 in Beirut. You and your "sources" have still to prove for definite that 3,500 refugees were indeed massacred. Going on to become a head of government, or indeed a head of state after previously misdeeds is not uncommon, after all Jom one ony has to look at Eamon de Valera - directly responsible for the deaths of ~6,000 Irish Citizens and inflicting needless damage on the economy of his country they elected him to both offices without any sort qualms of conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:46 AM

Still nothing but opinions eh?
Come back when you have something but your own blustering
Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though - a step in the right direction for you, I suppose!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 08:34 AM

Thanks Jom for demonstrating Point 5 of my last post perfectly:

5: "It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours."

That's a bit of a joke Jom, you have consistently proved beyond all possible doubt that you have absolutely no idea what documented historical fact is.

Here is Jom at his very best presenting what he thinks are "FACTS":

"Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though" - Jim Carroll

Presenting "Made-up-shit" as fact - so tell us Jom what "war criminals" have the Israelis elected to public office? I mean actual convicted war criminals, not just those who you THINK are war criminals

To do this of course you will be readily able to provide:

- Name
- Offence
- Where tried and convicted
- What sentence they received
- What public office they were elected to

Jim Carroll however knows full well that he will be unable to produce any such information as his assertion that "Israel elects war criminals into public office is just complete and utter bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 09:31 AM

You really don't get it, do you?
Are you so feeble minded as to think you can bully and bluster and refuse to qualify any of your claims?
Until you grasp the basics of discussion, I really do think we're finished here
You've had enough evidence to choke a donkey - if you have any of your own to contradict it - give it, otherwise, you really do have no case.
This "made up shit" comes with sources - where are yours.
Your behaviour is unacceptable - and the fact you carry on as you do, anonymously and from a distance makes it cowardly
Try it in the pub and see how far you get - you'd end up going home with your teeth in your pocket - your 'excavating equipment expert' would probably run over you with his bulldozer
My name is Jim Carroll - if you can't even get your head around that simple courtesy - what's the point
I left trying to communicate with ill brought up children and imbeciles years ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM

Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though

No enquiry has ever found him guilty of any war crime, and no dcent government has ever accused him of any.
Only you and other enemies of Israel.

You've had enough evidence to choke a donkey

We have had no hard evidence of any Israeli involvement in the massacre or disposal of bodies.

if you have any of your own to contradict it - give it,

We have Israel's version of events, which is based on reports of reputable bodies like ICRC and staff from the hospital, which is infinitely more credible that the version you and Israel's enemies keep trying to push but which informed governments all reject.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 10:14 AM

No enquiry has ever found him guilty of any war crime

Same can be said for Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:06 PM

"and no dcent government has ever accused him of any."
It would not be beyond reason to describe the behaviour of you pair as dysfunctional.
You have done far more damage to your ow image than I could ever dream of doing so there seems very little point in attempting to better what you have achieved.
I'll leave you to it
I'VE ALWAYS CONSIDERED THE UN TO BE FAIRLY DECENT AND FAIR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM

Well done Jim.
You have come up with a new name to call us, but still none of your "documented evidence" that you claim to have.

From your UN link Jim.

"The U.N. Human Rights Council wrapped up its latest session in Geneva on Friday, March 27 by adopting four resolutions condemning Israel. That's four times more than any of the other 192 UN member states.

There were four resolutions on Israel. And one on North Korea — a country that is home to government policies of torture, starvation, enslavement, rape, disappearances, and murder – to name just some of its crimes against humanity.

Four resolutions on Israel. And one on Syria. Where the death toll of four years of war is 100,000 civilians, ten million people are displaced, and barrel bombs containing chemical agents like chlorine gas are back in action.


Four resolutions on Israel. And one on Iran. Where there is no rule of law, no free elections, no freedom of speech, corruption is endemic, protestors are jailed and tortured, religious minorities are persecuted, and pedophilia is state-run. At last count, in 2012 Iranian courts ordered more than 30,000 girls ages 14 and under to be "married."

And what did that one resolution on Iran say? Co-sponsored by the United States, it was labelled a "short procedural text," consisting of just three operative paragraphs that contained not a single condemnation of Iran.


The Israel resolutions, on the other hand, were full of "demands," "condemns," "expresses grave concern," and "deplores" – along with orders to "cease immediately" a long list of alleged human rights violations.

Ninety percent of states – inhabited by 6.6 billion people – got no mention at all. Countries like China, Qatar, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. For the UN, there was not one human rights violation worthy of mention by any of these human rights horror shows.

Why not? For starters, China, Qatar, Russia and Saudi Arabia are all members of the UN Human Rights Council.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:44 PM

"You have come up with a new name to call us,"
Anybodyt who repeats something stupid over and over again is disfunctional.
Israel's record is as it is
If it is unjust, on of their friends would have protested
None did
End of story
Your "decent countries" poured burning petrol on Viet-Namese peasants for fourteen Years
Sold weapons to recognised despots including Assad, who has just bombed relief convoys
Bargained with the perpetrators of the Tainament Square massacre to build a nuclear power plant
Payed homage to to the founder of a dictatorship at the same time as a journalist was being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
Even people who behave like this refuse to speak in support of Israel's terrorism.
Game over
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 03:00 PM

Your "decent countries" poured burning petrol on Viet-Namese peasants for fourteen Years

Canada? New Zealand? Australia? Scandinavian and other EU states?
None supported those silly resolutions against Israel, or accused them of any war crime.

They leave that to decent, rights respecting democracies like Iran, Saudi, Syria, Egypt, Qatar, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM

I've just read through (some of) this long thread, which started as a discussion about the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, and has more recently become a discussion about the alleged crimes against humanity of the state of Israel.

I believe it is fair to criticise any regime that is violating human rights. In my opinion, this includes Israel, which has continued to build new settlements on Palestinian land.

I can kind of understand Israel's thinking! In the UK, we are blessed by being surrounded by friends: northern continental Europe, Ireland and Scandinavia. In contrast, Israel, since its formation, has been surrounded by enemies, which more than once have tried to wipe it off the map.

That makes aggressive Israeli policies a lot more understandable. It still does not make them right.

There is also the uncomfortable fact that the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others. However, we have to live in, and work with, the current situation. No one is seriously going to argue, for example, that the whole of the USA should be returned to native Americans, nor that the whole of the UK should be returned to the Celtic races.

However ... I agree that, if we are (justifiably) to criticise Israel, we should apply the same criteria to others. Israel is a democracy, with human rights legislation, that compares favourably with many other nations. They are, in some ways, a 'soft' target.

So, I wish we would criticise the human rights records of all nations, according to their current policies and actions.

Not so easy to do, though, in the real world, when we want good trade deals with economically and politically important countries such as China! For example ... best if we don't ever invite the Dalai Lama to visit in an official capacity again!   :-(

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:04 PM

has continued to build new settlements on Palestinian land.

Pray tell us when Judea and Samaria became "Palestinian" land.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM

Throughout history, land has changed hands. As I said, we have to work with the current situation.

Very difficult, though, if not impossible, to get this right!

If you stole my land a year ago, you committed a crime, and it's still my land, if I can get it back.

But if your ancestors stole the land from my ancestors 100 years ago? 1,000 years ago? 5,000 years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:41 PM

Judea and Samaria or what is referred to by some as the West Bank, a name given it when illegally occupied by Jordan, is not, nor has it ever been, "Palestinian" land. It is the historical heartland of the Jewish people, a place where they resided for generations until being ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians. Israel would gladly give it to the "Palestinians" for a state if the security of Israel could be assured. The experience with Gaza and the continuing PA supported terrorist activity against Jews makes it clear that the "Palestinian" leadership is incapable of providing that assurance.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:53 PM

Yes, I do understand that dilemma.

If you read my original post again, you will see that I was attempting to be sympathetic towards the Israeli situation, which I realise is not easy.

But still, we should be able to criticise any state, when it violates others' rights. The people living in the so-called 'occupied territories' (a judgemental term, I know) also do not have it easy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:02 PM

I agree that they don't have it easy but that is because of the corruption, incompetence and recalcitrance of their leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:03 PM

Bobad is a two-faced, lying troll, Andy, with a history here of dishonesty, multiple identity, abusive comments from behind a wall of anonymity and attempted deception. Anyway, enough of that. I agree with almost all you say. Actually, though, although there are stupid and misguided factions surrounding Israel who STATE that they want to wipe Israel from the map/Jews from the planet, etc., none have ever got anywhere near to trying to do it, let alone actually doing it. That isn't to say that they haven't been provoked into seriously inappropriate responses to successive Israeli regimes' disproportionate, bellicose provocation and cross-border abuses, not to speak of those land thefts you refer to. It's a bloody rotten mess all right and it's fuelled almost entirely by the unconditional support of Israel from the US, including three billion per annum in military aid. It is, however, perfectly possible to see where Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah are coming from whilst at the same time defending the inalienable right of ordinary Israelis to have peace, prosperity and security. What a shame that the current Israeli regime thinks that that only applies to three-quarters of the Israeli people, but therein lies another tale. As for applying standards to Israel, well I for one should like to see countries such as the US, China and Saudi Arabia isolated and sanctioned for their atrocious human rights records. They all put people to death in their droves and they all hassle and undermine their neighbours in their own self-interest. Jihadi John with his public beheadings was a monster. A country which supplies much of our oil and with whom we have a massive arms trade does exactly the same thing to people, in public, hundreds of times a year. Isn't expediency a wonderful thing. But I'm not for letting Israel off for its transgressions just because other countries are "just as bad." Anyone who feels offended by that can start a thread to discuss the nastiness of any country they like. You don't let little Jimmy off for hitting the little boy at the next desk just because little Billy has been looking up girls' skirts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:26 PM

the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others

That is historically inaccurate and a typical anti-Semitic trope.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:46 PM

Go away, liar. You understand nothing about anything. And that's the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:49 PM

Bobad is a two-faced, lying troll

This is typical of Shaw, pay it no heed. He is a renowned bully who attacks those who dare disagree with his opinions. For him and a couple of his buddies here anyone who challenges them is a troll. It's quite pathetic really but this is a forum that tolerates people like them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:16 PM

You posted totally dishonestly as an anonymous Guest and as Bobad at the same time, in order to call anyone one who disagreed with your bigotry a "Jew-hater," and you pretended that you had to do it so that we would "address the issue, not attack the man." In every other forum I'm on you'd have been permanently banned for such dishonesty. I knew for months what you were up to but it was only when this forum decided that anonymous Guest posting was banned that you finally had to come out. Now if you think that mercilessly exposing your crass dishonesty and disreputable behaviour in that way was "bullying," then I'm afraid that you don't know the meaning of the term. In fact, I can't think of any worse bullying behaviour than calling people names such as "Jew-hater" from behind a wall of cowardly anonymity. The true mark of a real bully is cowardice, which is precisely what you showed, garnished, naturally, with your utter dishonesty. You have not got a single ounce of credibility here and I'm amazed that you have so little shame that you show up here at all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:27 PM

Like I said Andy, pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 08:01 PM

"Anybodyt who repeats something stupid over and over again is disfunctional."

Well you do it all the time Carroll.

You have produced no "hard evidence" - you don't even know what that is. You have produced "eye-witness" accounts that are unverified and contradictory. You have provided statements describing things that could not possibly have been true {Even according to your "eye-witnesses"}. You have been asked to clarify those blatant contradictions time and again and you have been unable to do so time and again.

I do not think that I have EVER come across someone as idiotic, gullible, bigoted and closed minded as you are - you are in a class of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 02:50 AM

Andy7 - 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM

Tell us Andy7 what is "Palestinian Land"

Perhaps you could show us the borders for the Two State Solution the "Palestinians" claim they are fighting for showing the respective states of Palestine and Israel (You'll be doing very well if you can do this - because no such map exists)

This comment of yours I found rather interesting:

"Israel, since its formation, has been surrounded by enemies, which more than once have tried to wipe it off the map.

That makes aggressive Israeli policies a lot more understandable. It still does not make them right."

That first sentence is perfectly true, on this thread I have listed the occasions where all out attempts have been made to wipe Israel off the map and where the intention was to annihilate the Jewish population. As for the second sentence the only "aggressive" Israeli policies I am aware of are targeted at those who have attacked Israel and it's population, those former enemies of Israel who have reached a peace agreement with Israel have never subsequently been attacked. Israel has only ever used aggression in the face of extreme provocation (Over 15,000 missiles have been fired into Israel since 2005 - that sort of attack must be responded to). The third sentence considering what you say you realise in the first and second is rather idiotic and would appear so to anyone charged with the defence of their country - every living creature on this planet has the right to fight back and defend itself if attacked - the State of Israel and the Israeli people are no different - they are perfectly right to adopt whatever policies are required to ensure their sovereignty and security against any aggression.

"There is also the uncomfortable fact that the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others. "

That Andy7 is a "MYTH". As well as Jews who have lived in the area for hundreds of years {Hebron now a predominantly Arab town since the Jews who had lived there for over 800 years were driven out}, resettlement of the area by Jews from Europe has been going on since the 1840s and they purchased the land they settled from the Ottoman rulers and from largely absentee landlords. In 1920 when the Mandated territory of Palestine was created by the League of Nations 77% of it was given to the Arabs of Palestine for their own exclusive use. Anyone could settle in the remaining 23% of the territory. Those boundaries and borders established in 1923 remain until today the ONLY agreed borders in the territory, this part of the original territory of Palestine included Gaza, Jerusalem and what we today call the West Bank.

"I agree that, if we are (justifiably) to criticise Israel, we should apply the same criteria to others. Israel is a democracy, with human rights legislation, that compares favourably with many other nations. They are, in some ways, a 'soft' target.

So, I wish we would criticise the human rights records of all nations, according to their current policies and actions."

As you say that you have read down through this thread you will know that that just simply does not happen here on Mudcat, or amongst the ranks of the Labour Party's new hard left - only Israel {"a democracy, with human rights legislation, that compares favourably with many other nations"} is criticised, while brutal, corrupt and repressive undemocratic states and organisations get a "free pass".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 02:53 AM

You have had "hard evidence" - you have not attempted to disprove it, you have described it as "made up shit" - any moron can do that, as you have shown.
If the eye-witness accounts are "unverifiable and contradictory", you certainly have produced nothing to show that is the case.
Again, you make belligerent and unqualified abatements on what I have put up, as with everything you have claimed.
Your, 'it couldn't have happened because we don't know the numbers' sums up the level of your argument, your 'bulldozers' sank in the mud - you have persistently dodged behind Jenin which is not an issue here.
You have answered nothing - you have responded to nothing other than with insulting and belligerent bullying - all from the safety of anonymity and distance - as with all bullies, you do what you do from relative safety.
What with Keith's mindless repetition of imbecilic arguments based on 'Israel didn't do it' - full stop and your schoolyard behaviour, all you have managed to do is show yourselves up ad dysfunctional extremists.
You say I have a closed mind - what exactly have you put up to think about that isn't entirely unqualified opinion - what facts have you produced, what evidence, where have you quoted anybody - qualified or unqualified, that makes anything resembling a rebuttal of the facts?
You can dismiss the evidence and opinions of eyewitnesses out of hand - any half-wit can do that - that's what spoilt children do when they can't get their own way - over and over again.
You can't even manage my name J-I-M - suggests a nasty dose of dyslexia to me.
You want to open my mind - give me something to put in it - YOU HAVE PRODUCED NOTHING BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T THE NOUSE TO FIND ANYTHING.
Where is your evidence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 03:45 AM

"Anybody who repeats something stupid over and over again is disfunctional."

"Well you do it all the time Carroll."

And, without a trace of irony, you do precisely the same thing in your very next post.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 04:54 AM

"you do precisely the same thing in your very next post."

Really Shaw? As far as I can see my very next post was addressed to points made by Andy7 who up until 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM had not contributed to the thread - so how could that be repetition?

Care to point out anything that I did say in that post that was inaccurate, incorrect or "stupid".

By the way here are the inconsistencies in the unverified and unproven stories that Jom believes:

3,500 death but nowhere near that number of bodies - the Palestinians attempted to tell the same lies about Jenin but got caught out

Lebanese Forces (Phalangist) personnel perpetrated the massacre IDF personnel did not enter the camp - yet 10 Israeli bulldozers were supposed to have been seen inside the camp burying the dead, who I presume would have been inside the camp - not possible if no IDF personnel entered the camp as Jom's eye-witnesses have said.

1 Bulldozer seen at the camp entrance versus 10 bulldozers inside the camp - Which is correct?

According to Jom, and the story he believes, the difference in the ICRC and Lebanese body count and the one his bias and bigotry wants to believe can be explained away by a statement that the bodies were buried in a "secret mass grave" dug by IDF bulldozers and hidden beneath a Sports Stadium - This fable is utterly ridiculous for a number of fairly obvious and logical reasons. So obvious and logical in fact that one would have to be a complete and utter moron to believe the tale in the first place - needless to say Jom swallowed it hook-line-and-sinker as soon as he read it, pausing not even for a nano-second to question the practicalities and time line that would have been required.

Also odd isn't it Shaw that Jom never mentions the 1985 War of the Camps in Lebanon where Syrian backed Shi'ite Amal Militias attacked the Palestinians in Sabra-Shatila death toll there between 3,781 and 6,787. He doesn't mention this probably because it cannot be blamed on the Israelis, but these attacks were far worse than those of 1982 in terms of scale, ferocity and duration. Strange isn't it that while all that was going on there were the Israelis digging away with their bulldozers "secretly" burying the death of the 1982 massacre and constructing a Sports Stadium - after all the damn thing wasn't finished until 1998.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 06:20 AM

"1 Bulldozer seen at the camp entrance versus 10 bulldozers inside the camp - Which is correct?
"
Bulldozer reported as having been seen by Ellen Seigal - correct
10 bulldozers revealed to have been used confirmed by the report of the Kahan Commission in the American newspaper   given on this forum - eqally correct
One was an eye-witness report the other based later research
The number of bulldozers discovered to have been used rose as witnsses were interviewed, the first being the half-dozen reported by relief workers, who saw four.
The final figure was reached following the Kahan Commission enquiry, where the Israelis claimed only one.
Benny Morris admitted there were several and they were being used to bury the bodies.
The actual number is totally immaterial - if it had been 35, it would have been a crime against humanity, if it had been 350 it would have been a crime against humanity....
It was a crime against humanity facilitated, armed and assisted by the Israeli regime.
If you read what was put up, you would be aware of all this - it's all been provided.
I have never suggested that the IDF entered the camp - even though their presence was reported by eye witnesses, whod described pleading with Israeli soldiers to stop the killing.
I have listed everything that has been confirmed and asked for your response - nothing other than dishonest claims that they've been answered.
The War of the camps has nothing to do with the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - it was a hideous crime against humanity and nobody, other than the Israeli right wing and their right wing apologists have ever denied it.
Now - where's your evidence?
"Jom"
Try again J.I.M. - not difficult.
J.I.M. Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 06:51 AM

"It was a crime against humanity facilitated, armed and assisted by the Israeli regime."

Certainly was a crime against humanity but it was perpetrated by a Lebanese Militia. It no way was it facilitated by the IDF, in fact the LF forces were warned by the IDF to behave with circumspection, the Israeli regime as you term it had no prior knowledge of what was about to happen, and references to their "probable" and "indirect" responsibility in the subsequent inquiries revolves around what others in hindsight thought the Israelis should have been able to predict.

"The War of the camps has nothing to do with the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees"

No proof whatsoever that 3,500 unarmed refugees were massacred, Keith A of Hertford has already given you the numbers confirmed by the ICRC and Lebanese Authorities and it is nowhere close to your figure. I stated that it was odd that for years now you have been banging on incessantly about the massacre in Sabra-Shatila perpetrated by LF in 1982 where you say 3,500 died yet you have not said a word about, let alone condemn, the massacres of 1985/86 perpetrated by Syrian backed Muslim Militia forces where almost double that number were killed.

Tell us again how the IDF managed to bury those bodies in secret after the LF Phalangists left the camp in 1982? They were being closely watched by the world's media, an armed multi-National Force and the Lebanese Authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM

No proof of your own, just denial, totally ignoring the evidence in hand.
The IDF assisted in the burial of the corpses using bulldozers - confirmed by Israeli historian Benny Morris, who went on to say it was done in order to conceal the enormity of the massacre.
"Tell us again how the IDF managed to bury those bodies in secret after the LF Phalangists left the camp"
No "figure" was ever confirmed - that is obe of the first accepted facts - an accurate count was made impossible due to the fact that nobody knew where the bodies were buried - they were removed by the Israelis and Phalangists - that is an unchallenngavbbe fact
Tell us again how you continue to distort what I have provided (rhetorical question, of course)
The bulldozers entered the camp before the killers left, Ellen Shapiro left the camp flanked by mobs of Phalangists - she reported seeing a bulldozer with Hebrew writing on the side as she left.
Do you have a problem with "assisted in burying the bodies" and actually burying them?
The figure of 3,500 was arrived at by an Israeli Journalist, based on his own rough count - it is the highest one provided, but as I said, it could be higher as the transitory nature of these refugee camps make it difficult to assess who is in residence and who has left.
Your persistent harping on the figures and your ignoring the fact that a far smaller number than the one given would still be a massive crime against humanity is a pretty clear indication tat you are nit-picking in order to avoid addressing the proven facts.
Do so or go away - where is your proof, where are your witness statements - where is anything other than your own twisted excuses?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 11:51 AM

"they were removed by the Israelis and Phalangists - that is an unchallenngavbbe fact"

Isn't that the line they tried after Jenin after it became clear that nowhere near the number of people were killed? Same people same lies only with Jenin the Israelis did not leave and the truth that no massacre had occurred came out. And no Jom it is not an unchallengeable FACT for it to be a fact you'd have to know numbers, how they were transported, where they were transported to and where they were buried - As none of that is likely to have happened because of the time line and opportunity it is not surprising at all that none of these supposed "facts" of yours are known.

Opinion: "A view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge"

Fact: "a thing that is known or proved to be true"

Your far from impartial "eye-witnesses" have stated their opinions that does not make them "facts". Far too many inconsistencies and contradictions for what they say to be considered reliable.

"Do you have a problem with "assisted in burying the bodies" and actually burying them?"

Frankly yes I do - you originally stated quite definitely that the IDF used bulldozers to dig mass graves in secret to bury the dead and hid the grave under a Sports Stadium - you had "evidence" of this from "eye-witnesses" - stick with what you originally said to do anything else casts doubt and loss of credibility on your original statement - but you haven't stuck with it have you Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 01:02 PM

"Isn't that the line they tried after Jenin "
This didn't come from the Lebanese - it came from a respected Israeli writer, journalist, aid workers and investigators - it has never been challenged by anybody other than the accused regime, whose word appears to be sacrosanct.
Nobody has ever suggested otherwise - it is given as the reason why the exact numbers aren't known - particularly by Benny Morris - it was the object of the exerxcise.
You have anything motre to say bring something more than adende driven opinion
"Jom"
Ifr you can't be bothered to spell my name - don't bother coming back- your bullying arrogance has long ceased to amuse me
Go exercise your inferiority complex on somebody it impresses - I'm not qualified to deal with the psychological damaged
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM

"definitely that the IDF used bulldozers to dig mass graves in secret"
For the record
I have never claimed the bodies were buried secretly - this appears to be more of your "made up shit"
I've just checked all the threads the massacre has been mentioned - no mention of "secretly" anywhere - just that they were buried to hide the numbers - as was claimed by Benny Morris.
What have oyu been told about making things up?
It invariably blows up in your face.
If you disagree with this - prove it.
Don't ask anybody to show where you have lied again - these threads are big enough as it is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 03:26 PM

You may add your consulting your mate over the bulldozers to your list of porkies, by the way.
Anyone involved in excavation machinery who didn't know that bulldozers can be adapted dig must be a moonlighting supply teacher
You made it up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 07:50 PM

It's such a pity that some posters feel the need to post anonymous personal attacks on here; because it's such an important topic, well worth discussing seriously, and in depth.

In particular, it's ridiculous to deliberately mis-spell someone's name over and over again during a serious discussion. I was going to write 'childish', but not many children that I've known would ever do that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 02:34 AM

How nice to hear from you again Andy7. Even nicer to hear that you think that this subject should be discussed seriously, even although you show absolutely no signs or have no intention of doing so. You make your comments, ill-informed and inaccurate as they are, and expect them to be accepted without challenge. So I will ask you again:

1: What is "Palestinian" Land?

2: Show me a map, any map, drawn up by Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah/Palestinian Authority that shows the borders of the two state solution they tell the world they are fighting for.

3: Explain to us all why every other living being and every country in the world has the right of self-defence but Israel, the Israeli and Jewish people do not.

4: Tell us what land in the Mandated Territory of Palestine was "stolen". We know that Gaza was by Egypt from 1948 until 1967, we know that Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem were by Jordan from 1848 until 1967.

The following from you - "The people living in the so-called 'occupied territories' (a judgemental term, I know) also do not have it easy." - Those people have not had, and are not having, it easy because their supposed Arab friends and allies and their own "leaders" since 1920 have chosen war and violence over peaceful co-existence. Have treated "their people" like political pawns, prisoners and livestock for their own purposes (Mainly as a cash crop to line their own pockets - they are still trying to trace Arafat's billions).

As to "name calling" and the deliberate mis-spelling of a name - well Andy7 check back if you'd care to - I have suffered that for years on this Forum without complaint and J.I.M. Carroll you will find gave himself the name Jom in one of his posts and I rather liked it. Keith A of Hertford doesn't complain when he is called "professor",

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:08 AM

Couldn't care less who it came from Carroll, your figure of 3,500 is an unverified estimate that you are presenting as being factual IT ISN'T. And in no way whatsoever has it been fully investigated and documented as you have previously claimed on this thread.

Jim Carroll - 08 Sep 16 - 08:49 AM

"It is unverifiable because the Israelis buried the bodies and built a sports stadium over the mass graves to ascertain that the exact figure would never be known."

Jim Carroll same day:

"Eye witnesses, including the American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves."

Still want to disclaim ever having come out with a load of crap about mass graves and sports stadiums Jom?

Still want to disclaim wittering on about the Israelis burying bodies in a mass grave dug by bulldozers?