BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:24 AM

"you will find gave himself the name Jom in one of his posts a"
Your clinging to a typo adds lack of imagination to your many talents
You put great store on typos, don't you - always hand when there's nothing else.
"You make your comments, ill-informed and inaccurate as they are, and expect them to be accepted without challenge."
Back to 'The At#rabs have no place in their ancient homeland - you really are an adherent to Israeli and well as home-grown fascism.
I suppose we have to put your loutish bad manners and your unpleasant insecurity down to bad upbringing and an unfulfilled life, for which, you have my sympathy, but I see no reason why we should have to put up with it here - so if you have nothing else to offer.......
O and O
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:41 AM

"Even before the slaughter inside the camps had ended, Shahira Abu Rudeina says she was taken to the Cite Sportif where, in one of the underground "holding centres", she saw a retarded man, watched by Israeli soldiers, burying bodies in a pit. Her evidence might be rejected were it not for the fact that she also expressed her gratitude for an Israeli soldier–inside the Chatila camp, against all the evidence given by the Israelis–who prevented the murder of her daughters by the Phalange.
Long after the war, the ruins of the Cite Sportif were torn down and a brand new marble stadium was built in its place, partly by the British. Pavarotti has sung there. But the testimony of what may lie beneath its foundations–and its frightful implications–might give Ariel Sharon further reason to fear an indictment.
ROBERT FISK"

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 09:38 AM

Ah so Carroll's Israeli digging of mass Graves and building a Sports Stadium over the site to ensure that their crimes would never be uncovered becomes:

"Shahira Abu Rudeina says she was taken to the Cite Sportif where, in one of the underground "holding centres", she saw a retarded man, watched by Israeli soldiers, burying bodies in a pit."

The Cite Sportif by the way IS the Camille Chamoun Stadium the biggest in the Lebanon. It was built in 1957, destroyed in 1982 and totally remodelled and rebuilt in 1998 - no mass graves dating from 1982 were discovered during this extensive reconstruction work or in any later modifications.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM

Once again facts and history trump ideological revisionism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM

That's new addition - The fasts of this were put up well over a year ago duning one of Keith's bouts of atrocity- denying put up at least a thread ago
I was reading it the other day when I was confirming that you were twelling lies about my "secret Graves".
No mass graves were looked for, which is the point of Fisk's artificial;
Do you actually have anything that resembles evidence? - you've never presented any - ever.
"Once again facts and history trump ideological revisionism."
Oooooh - another troll - must be an epidemic
I know you make a point of not responding to questions, but do you see any "facts and history" here?
All I can see are yet more denials.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:12 AM

There you go - one more time

Further north, in the Sabra section of the camp, women came up to us, crying with fear and appealing for help. Their men - sons, husbands, fathers - had been taken from their homes at the time of the massacre. A few1 had already been found at the execution walls but others were still missing. A Reuters correspondent had seen men being held under guard by Israeli troops in the ruins of the sports stadium. There were more journalists now, Lebanese newspaper photographers and diplomats. We found two Swiss delegates from the International Red Cross and told them where we had found mass graves. Swedish radio's correspondent was in the camp.
We found hundreds of the missing men in the stadium, just as the Reuters man had said. They were Lebanese for the most part — Lebanese as well as Palestinians lived in Sabra - and they were being taken away for 'interrogation' by militiamen. The whole western side of the ruined sports stadium was guarded by uniformed Israeli troops together with plain-clothes Shin Bet intelligence operatives, big, heavy-set men wearing Ray-Bans with Uzi machine-guns in their hands. There were also militia¬men there, three of whom I saw leading a frightened man away from the stadium. The Israelis let them do this. They had agreed to this procedure. The Israelis themselves explained to us that this was a search for 'terrorists'.
From 'Pity the Nation' Robert Fisk

After Sharon's army had taken West Beirut and sealed off all escapes routes from the Palestinian refugee camps, Sharon ordered the phalange in. The official order from Sharon read "for the operation in the camps the phalange should be sent in"*. Knowing that the camps were full of unarmed civilians - mainly women and children, only around 150 phalange were deployed. The testimonies of the survivors suggest that both Israeli soldiers and their mercenaries the Phalange entered the camps and participated in the massacre**.
The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies.
FROM BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM
EYE-WITNESS TO SABRA-SHATILA MASSACRE
Dr.Ang Swee Chai

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 12:36 PM

One more time
On Saturday morning, September 18, 1982 Israeli Mossad agents inside the camp actually were observed driving three of the bulldozers in a frantic attempt to assist the Christian militia in covering up evidence of the crime before the exported international media arrived on the scene. The late American journalist, Janet Lee Stevens, documented that during Sept. 18 and 19th, most of the massacre victims killed during this period were slaughtered inside the joint Israeli-Lebanese Forces "interrogation center." Janet testified that these killed were put in flatbed trucks and taken to the Golf Course, just 300 yards away, where waiting Israeli bulldozers dug pits. Other trucks drove in the direction of East Beirut. At the time of her death, seven months later, Janet was preparing her report for publication. This observer packed Janet's belongings and after some wrangling with the US Embassy staff who had arrived on the plane President Ronald Reagan sent to return Janet and the other Americans remains to the US, her two cardboard boxes of papers and research notes were onboard.
29 Years After the Massacre at Sabra Shatila Franklin Lamb    SEPTEMBER 16, 2011 by FRANKLIN LAMB
'Franklin Lamb is a former Assistant Counsel of the US House Judiciary Committee and Professor of International Law at Northwestern College of Law, Portland, Oregon.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 02:48 AM

Jim Carroll - 24 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM

"That's new addition - The fasts of this were put up well over a year ago duning one of Keith's bouts of atrocity- denying put up at least a thread ago
I was reading it the other day when I was confirming that you were twelling lies about my "secret Graves".
No mass graves were looked for, which is the point of Fisk's artificial;
Do you actually have anything that resembles evidence?"

Let me see now, we have:

Sports Stadiums with "underground holding centres"
Bodies being buried inside the Sports Centre
Bodies not being buried in the Sports Centre but being transported on flatbed trucks to a Golf Course (Which J.I.M. is further than 300 yards from the Camille Chamoun Stadium)
1 Israeli bulldozers just outside the entrance to the camp
10 Israeli bulldozers inside the camp
3 Israeli bulldozers either at the Sports Stadium or at a Golf Course which lies to the South of the Stadium towards the airport.
Israeli's burying bodies to "ascertain that the true numbers will never be known" or words to that effect, which would of course logically require that the location of any such mass graves would have to be secret, yet according to J.I.M.'s eye-witnesses the Israeli's were observed doing all this a) Inside the camp, b) At the Sports Stadium and c) At the Club Libanais de Golf

See any contradictions in that lot J.I.M.?

What evidence do I have?
Well it can be summed up by lack of evidence really. If 3,500 people have been murdered then something must have been done to destroy the evidence that they have been killed. The ICRC and the Lebanese Authorities cleared the camp site after the massacre by LF militias in 1982 the number of dead is nowhere near the figure touted by J.I.M.
Now if a foreign force came into my country, my capital city and murdered 3,500 of my fellow countrymen then bundled them unceremoniously into mass graves that could be located through eye-witness accounts, then the second that foreign force had departed I would have those bodies exhumed and given decent burial, I would also invite independent observers from the UN and ICC along with the world's press to record the exhumations in order to confront and bring the perpetrators to justice. But none of that happened did it J.I.M. Can you offer up any sensible, logical reason why those bodies were never exhumed? Why no mass graves were ever looked for or even marked?

More "evidence" or more accurately more lack of evidence. One of J.I.M.'s eye-witnesses stated that she had seen bodies being buried at the Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium which was destroyed during fighting in 1982. While not actually looking for mass graves extensive construction work was carried out on this site subsequent to the events of 1982, the complete redevelopment and reconstruction of the entire complex would have required extensive excavation and guess what J.I.M. - no bodies, let alone mass graves were uncovered. Robert Fisk in writing his book "Pity the Nation" in 1990 would not have known about that as construction work on the Camille Chamoun Site did not commence until 1997.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:06 AM

Sigh- still no facts - ah well - push on.
"Sharon, Eitan, Drori, and military intelligence chief Yehoshua Saguy all knew what was happening by the evening of 17 September, according to their own subsequent testimony, but the massacre was allowed to continue for twelve more hours. Another 200-300 militiamen had already been allowed into Shatila by then, and the IDF also provided bulldozers which the Lebanese Forces hurriedly used to dig mass graves. The militia was finally ordered out at 8 a.m. on 18 September, by which time at least 700 refugees had died by Israeli estimate. The Lebanese military prosecutor later stated that 328 bodies had been recovered and that 991 persons were missing, but the ICRC reported 1,500 dead and an independent international commission subsequently asserted that the final count was 2,750.
Kahan Commission analysis
Yezid Seyigh - Historian Kings College.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:20 AM

"independent international commission subsequently asserted that the final count was 2,750."

1: What independent international commission?

2: What was their assertion based upon?

3: If their final count was 2,750. Where does your figure of 3,500 come from?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:20 AM

"independent international commission subsequently asserted that the final count was 2,750."

1: What independent international commission?

2: What was their assertion based upon?

3: If their final count was 2,750. Where does your figure of 3,500 come from?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:52 AM

And more to ignore
Elsewhere, one could find women with their heads blown apart and others rotting together with the garbage surrounded by flies. A Norwegian diplomat, Gunnar Flakstad, said he saw a pile of bodies being taken off in a scoop bulldozer, apparently destined for burial. In the middle of the camp, near some of the worst bodies, was a freshly dug hole covered with red dirt and patted down by a bulldozer. The site is believed to be a mass grave.
New York Times

Nearby the Israelis continued their roundup of suspected Palestinian guerrillas. Israeli troops armed with loudspeakers drove through the Sabra refugee camp and the Fakhani Palestinian quarter and ordered all men to go to the sports stadium with their identification papers for interrogation.
By late afternoon 500 to 600 men were huddled together under several tiers of the stadium awaiting questioning. The men were being provided with food and water, and anyone in need of medical attention was being treated. The wives and sisters of many of those inside stood behind a fence begging reporters, kissing them up and down the arm, if they would only go in and find out about the fate of their husbands, sons or brothers.
The Israeli commander in charge, Col. Naftali Bahiry, said the identification papers of each man would be checked to determine whether or not he was a Palestine Liberation Organization guerrilla who had been ordered to take off his uniform and stay behind in civilian clothes in violation of the withdrawal agreement. The Begin Government says there are some 2,000 such guerrillas still in the camp. Most Are Not P.L.O. Guerrillas
Colonel Bahiry conceded that most of those being detained by the Israelis after questioning were not P.L.O. guerrillas ordered to stay behind, since few of those were apparently being found. Rather they were members of the Palestinian militia, which is made up of older men or school boys and was in charge of providing law and order in the camps.
Those who belonged to the militia are known as Lebanese Palestinians - the Palestinians who have lived in Beirut since 1948 and who unlike the guerrillas did not come here to fight. The militiamen are for the most part students, workers or businessmen who fight only when called upon to protect the camps.
Asked if all the Palestinian fighters being found by the Israelis were simply local militiamen rather than guerrillas ordered to stay behind by Yasir Arafat, the P.L.O. leader, as the Begin Government claimed, Colonel Bahiry stated, ''Oh, much more than half are militiamen.''
As the Palestinian men trudged to the sports stadium for interrogation, many asked reporters if any Phalangists or Haddad men were there, as they had heard of the killings in Shatila. One woman, Badria Muhaid, said she had her father and three brothers inside the sports stadium with the Israelis, but her 15-year-old brother, Marwan, had been taken away Friday night from the Sabra refugee camp by the Phalangists working together with the Israelis. Interrogated by Haddad's Militia
Colonel Bahiry declared the Haddad men and the Phalangists had been ordered out of the area this morning -but it appears to have been a little too late for the residents of Shatila.
According to residents of Shatila and reporters who visited the main street of the camp Friday evening, things were relatively calm in the area. One young boy, who declined to identify himself, said all the men were ordered out of the camp Friday and were divided up near the sports stadium between Lebanese and Palestinians. They were interrogated by members of Major Haddad's militia, which was transported into Beirut by the Israeli Army. Some of the men, he charged, were cut across the cheek when they refused to cooperate in the interrogation.
New York Times
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:12 AM

You've had this - read it
"In his book published soon after the massacre,[77] the Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk of Le Monde Diplomatique, arrived at about 2,000 bodies disposed of after the massacre from official and Red Cross sources and "very roughly" estimated 1,000 to 1,500 other victims disposed of by the Phalangists themselves to a total of 3,000–3,500."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:24 AM

Kahan Commission analysis
Yezid Seyigh - Historian Kings College

Here is what the Kahan Commission found:

"It is impossible to determine precisely the number of persons who were slaughtered. The numbers cited in this regard are to a large degree tendentious and are not based on an exact count by persons whose reliability can be counted on. The low estimate came from sources connected with the Government of Lebanon or with the Lebanese Forces. The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross delegation to the Minister of Defense stated that Red Cross representatives had counted 328 bodies. This figure, however, does not include all the bodies, since it is known that a number of families buried bodies on their own initiative without reporting their actions to the Red Cross. The forces who engaged in the operation removed bodies in trucks when they left Shatilla, and it is possible that more bodies are lying under the ruins in the camps or in the graves that were dug by the assailants near the camps. The letter noted that the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September. According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross, the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males; as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children. Reports from Palestinian sources speak of a far greater number of persons killed, sometimes even of thousands. With respect to the number of victims, it appears that we can rely neither on the numbers appearing in the document from Lebanese sources, nor on the numbers originating in Palestinian sources. A further difficulty in determining the number of victims stems from the fact that it is difficult to distinguish between victims of combat operations and victims of acts of slaughter. We cannot rule out the possibility that various reports included also victims of combat operations from the period antedating the assassination of Bashir. Taking into account the fact that Red Cross personnel counted no more that 328 bodies, it would appear that the number of victims of the massacre was not as high as a thousand, and certainly not thousands.

According to I.D.F. intelligence sources, the number of victims of the massacre is between 700 and 800 (testimony of the director of Military Intelligence, pp. 139-140). This may well be the number most closely corresponding with reality. It is impossible to determine precisely when the acts of slaughter were perpetrated; evidently they commenced shortly after the Phalangists entered the camps and went on intermittently until close to their departure.

Now oddly enough I see no mention of 1,500 bodies by the ICRC, certainly no mention of 2,750 dead.

No round up and interrogation of residents of the camp in underground holding centres at the Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium during the course of the massacre. Established beyond doubt by the Commission

Franklin Lamb actually saw nothing, again established beyond doubt by the Commission, he passed on stories told to him by others.

The Doctors, Nurses and Staff from the Gaza Hospital in west Beirut at the time they were taken to the UN Building had no idea that any massacre had taken place.

Nothing could be seen from the IDF Command Post

All the above taken from the Kahan Commission Report if you care to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:38 AM

J.I.M.'s Sports Stadium Myth:

Nobody was taken to the sports stadium during the massacre by anybody.

Events occurred as reported by the NY Times after the Phalangist Militia left the camp on the morning of the 18th September. The Camille Chamoun Stadium was used as an assembly point - no-one was killed there, and guess what J.I.M. no-one was buried there.

By the way J.I.M. another one of your "MYTHS" exploded by the Kahan Commission - None of Haddad's forces were involved in the massacre, according to testimony of IDF Liaison Officers attached to Major Haddad's forces through out the period in question Haddad's forces remained east of the Awali River.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:29 AM

"Here is what the Kahan Commission found:"
That would be the enquiry set up by the Israeli Government to defend it's actios asnd those of the army
Must be true then!!
Who to believe, eh?
Jim Carroll
Eye witness account given to the
"The Lebanese Forces militia [Phalangists] had taken us from our homes and marched us up to the entrance to the camp where a large hole had been dug in the earth. The men were told to get into it. Then the militiamen shot a Palestinian. The women and children had climbed over bodies to reach this spot, but we were truly shocked by seeing this man killed in front of us and there was a roar of shouting and screams from the women. That's when we heard the Israelis on loudspeakers shouting, 'Give us the men, give us the men.' We thought, 'Thank God, they will save us.'" It was to prove a cruelly false hope.
The evidence centres on the Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium– the "Cite Sportif". Only two miles from Beirut airport, the damaged stadium was a natural holding centre for prisoners. It had been an ammunition dump for Yasser Arafat's PLO and repeatedly bombed by Israeli jets during the 1982 siege of Beirut so that its giant, smashed exterior looked like a nightmare denture. The Palestinians had earlier mined its cavernous interior, but its vast, underground storage space and athletics changing-rooms remained intact. It was a familiar landmark to all of us who lived in Beirut. At mid-morning on 18 September 1982–about the time Sana Sersawi says she was brought to the stadium–I saw hundreds of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners, probably well over 1,000, sitting in its gloomy, dark interior, squatting in the dust, watched over by Israeli soldiers and plain-clothes Shin Beth (Israeli secret service) agents and men who I suspected were Lebanese collaborators. The men sat in silence, obviously in fear. From time to time, I noted, a few were taken away. They were put into Israeli army trucks or jeeps or Phalangist vehicles–for further "interrogation".

Nor did I doubt this. A few hundred metres away, inside the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian refugee camps, up to 600 massacre victims rotted in the sun, the stench of decomposition drifting over the prisoners and their captors alike. It was suffocatingly hot. Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters and I had only got into the cells because the Israelis assumed–given our Western appearance–that we must have been members of Shin Beth. Many of the prisoners had their heads bowed. But Israel's Phalangist militiamen–still raging at the murder of their leader and president elect Bashir Gemayel–had been withdrawn from the camps, their slaughter over, and at least the Israeli army was now in charge. So what did these men have to fear?
Mrs Sersawi, three months pregnant, saw her husband Hassan, 30, and her Egyptian brother-in-law Faraj el-Sayed Ahmed standing in the crowd of men. "We were told to walk up the road towards the Kuwaiti embassy, the women and children in front, the men behind. We had been separated. There were Phalangist militiamen and Israeli soldiers walking alongside us. I could still see Hassan and Faraj. It was like a parade. There were several hundred of us. When we got to the Cite Sportif, the Israelis put us women in a big concrete room and the men were taken to another side of the stadium. There were a lot of men from the camp and I could no longer see my husband. The Israelis went round saying 'Sit, sit.' It was 11am. An hour later, we were told to leave. But we stood around outside amid the Israeli soldiers, waiting for our men."
Sana Sersawi waited in the bright, sweltering sun for Hassan and Faraj to emerge. "Some men came out, none of them younger than 40, and they told us to be patient, that hundreds of men were still inside. Then about 4pm, an Israeli officer came out. He was wearing dark glasses and said in Arabic: 'What are you all waiting for?' He said there was nobody left, that everyone had gone. There were Israeli trucks moving out with tarpaulin over them. We couldn't see inside. And there were jeeps and tanks and a bulldozer making a lot of noise. We stayed there as it got dark and the Israelis appeared to be leaving and we were very nervous. But then when the Israelis had moved away, we went inside. And there was no one there. Nobody. I had been only three years married. I never saw my husband again."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 06:12 AM

"Mrs Sersawi, three months pregnant, saw her husband Hassan, 30, and her Egyptian brother-in-law Faraj el-Sayed Ahmed standing in the crowd of men. "We were told to walk up the road towards the Kuwaiti embassy ...............There were several hundred of us. When we got to the Cite Sportif,

Which one is it J.I.M. - the Kuwaiti Embassy or the Camille Chamoun Stadium? Or was the Citie Sportif the Kuwaiti Embassy? The Stadium was mined by the Palestinians? When were those mines cleared and by whom?

You don't really question much do you J.I.M.? I suppose as long as the narrative feeds your bigotry and bias you don't really give a damn.

Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post, Paul Eedle of Reuters - where are their reports of the hundreds killed in the Citie Sportif? Your account states that they were there their presence and appearance being mistaken as Shin Beth Operatives?

You've got bulldozers digging mass graves here, there and everywhere and yet no mass graves have ever been found in a city and amongst a population that would delight in producing evidence with which to confront the Israelis - but none have been found in the years since the IDF pulled out of Beirut.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 06:30 AM

You have the evidence - you choose to deny it.
You present the claims of the accused and dismiss that of eye witnesses, journalists and researchers.
To use your own nastiness - I have no idea how old you are as you choose to hide behind your anonymity. but, for the sake of justice and logic, I hope to god that you are never called for jury service.
WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?
I say nothing - I have given many researched and documented statements and full articles.
WHERE ARE YOURS - YOU CONTINUE YOU MAKE UP "FACTS" AND PRODUCE NOTHING
Some more
"08:00am - General Amos Yaron observes the remnants of the crowd of most elderly people, women and children, who were gathered at the camp entrance at 06:00am. He announces that the women and children may leave. The men are taken to the nearby Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium for interrogation by the Israelis, who warn them that they must "reveal terrorist hideouts" because, "If you do not tell us the truth, you know that the Phalangists and Sa'ad Haddad's men are here!". Twenty-eight dead prisoners are subsequently found in the sports stadium, their hands tied behind their backs.
Diane Mason, journalist and researcher
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 06:54 AM

"They went into the area and took away about 18 young people, while confining us – men, women and children – to the camp. I saw my brothers and some children among the men they took away. While we were walking, we saw people who had been killed with axes. Among them were doctors from Gaza hospital. They lined them up and slaughtered them; then they started shooting at us and killed a large number of people, including 18 of our neighbours' sons. While they were shooting, the whole camp was surrounded by Israeli tanks and all the diggers were Israeli. An Israeli patrol presented itself to us and asked us to go to the Sports Centre. The men went, while we women were taken to the Kuwaiti embassy. That's how we saw them loading the young people into the cars. Among those young people was my brother. They blindfolded them and they loaded my brother in the car. That's how he disappeared and I have never seen him again since." Bahija Zrein (3)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 07:06 AM

By the way
"and amongst a population that would delight in producing evidence"
L
"Lebanese are also quick to point fingers at the Palestinians for the cross-border attacks on northern Israel after 1969. After these raids prompted the Israelis to invade Lebanon in 1982, the situation reversed and Palestinian refugees went from being a political threat to being targets for violence by Christian right-wing militias, notably in the Sabra and Shatila camps."
From The Middle East Quarterly, The Middle East Forum "Promoting American Interests"
Because of this reasoning, the Lebanese Authorities refused permission to excavate the site immediately after the massacre and have done so ever since
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 09:53 AM

Love the way J.I.M. refuses to put dates or a time line to any of his hobby-horses. While enlightening us on the politics of Lebanon he omits to tell us that from 1976 until 2005 much of the Lebanon was occupied by Syrian troops and they dictated what went on - are you seriously trying to tell us J.I.M. that the Syrians wished to protect Israel's reputation?

Trouble with all this "evidence" you keep producing J.I.M. is that it is contradictory and on investigation one discovers that the witnesses actually didn't see anything, they are repeating stories told by others. No-one was killed after 08:00hrs on the morning of 18th September 1982, and it was only after 08:00hrs on the morning of the 18th September 1982 that people were asked to go to the Sports Stadium where they were given medical attention if needed, food and water.

It was the IRCR who collected the bodies of the dead not the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 10:21 AM

"Love the way J.I.M. refuses to put dates or a time line to any of his hobby-horses."
Love the way you refuse to present evidence for your claims
Come back whn you decide to change the habit if a lifetime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 10:53 AM

On second thoughts, don't bother
I think I've knocked down enough of your skittles, don't you?
By-ee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 11:51 AM

Jim, none of the stuff you have produced is evidence.
The eye witness who reported doctors from the Gaza hospital being slaughtered was lying. None were. all were accounted for.

Your "Kahan Commission Assessment" was no such thing. It is not in the report.

From your NY Times piece,
"Residents of the Shatila camp said no Israeli soldiers were directly involved in the killings. " http://www.nytimes.com/1982/09/19/world/christian-militiamen-accused-massacre-beirut-camps-us-says-toll-least-300.html?pagewanted=all

Eye witness account given to the

Given to who? Fiske?
Anyway, it did not appear until 19 years after the event! No eye witnesses reported any such nonsense to him at the time.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/another-war-on-terror-another-proxy-army-another-mysterious-massacre-and-now-after-19-years-perhaps-9255784.html

The IDF assisted in the burial of the corpses using bulldozers - confirmed by Israeli historian Benny Morris, who went on to say it was done in order to conceal the enormity of the massacre.

No he did not. He has stated that Israelis did not collude in any way, so he would not have put that in his book (which I have ordered from the library).

The ICRC buried the bodies and reported no illicit movement or burial of bodies.

Ang Swee Chai was with Siegel and saw no more than her.
She reports things that she did not witness.
She reported nurses raped and killed in another Beirut hospital, but it never happened. It was just a rumour. She reported the Jenin massacre as if it really happened.

There is nothing to contradict the Israel version, which is that of Kahan.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 12:09 PM

C'mon J.I.M. tell us all about the Jenin Massacre - that never happened - you can turn up equally non-convincing and contradictory eue-witness accounts to that non-event.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 02:40 PM

Also the MV Marmara.
Nurses on board claimed to have witnessed Israelis throwing bodies over, but everyone was accounted for.
If they are sensible, eye witnesses say what the militants tell them to say, but it takes time to get the stories straight.

No such witnesses came forward in the immediate aftermath, but there were plenty when Fiske returned later.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM

Guardian 9 hours ago,

"Head of Jewish Labour group: party is in crisis over antisemitism"

""Is there a crisis in terms of the relationship between the Jewish community and the Labour party?" Newmark asked a packed crowd at Momentum's The World Transformed, a fringe conference running in Liverpool at the same time as Labour's official annual gathering.

"The last poll on Jewish support for Labour showed it was somewhere between 7.6% and 8%," he continued. "Some of you may welcome that news. But to me that statistic is a crisis. That statistic is what needs to be addressed.

"You can mock it, you can deny it, you can misquote surveys and statistics. But at the end of the day, you're only kidding yourself."

He continued: "If you don't believe it's a statistic that needs to be addressed, the message you're sending out to my community is you don't care about that relationship and that Jews are not welcome in this party.""
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/head-of-jewish-labour-group-party-is-in-crisis-over-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:13 AM

"C'mon J.I.M. tell us all about the Jenin Massacre "
Why?
Nothing to do with anything here.
I've told you about Sabra-Shatila and you he#ave responded by denying everything.
You really shouldn't post so close after closing time - you are even more inarticulate than you are when sober.
Thank you for using my initials, by the way - a step in the right direction
One day at a time, as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:06 AM

Now then J.I.M. tell us all exactly what it is that I have "denied".

You have made categoric statements about the 1982 massacres in Beirut and they have been challenged. In response you, as you always do when challenged, produce reams of what you "think" is "evidence" riddled through and through with contradictory, conflicting statements to support your usual over-emotive claptrap. On investigation we find that these "eye-witnesses" you are so fond of actually saw nothing.

I also pointed out to you that in the wake of the "supposed" massacre at Jenin there were clear parallels and similarities in the "eye-witness" accounts for both Sabra-Shatila and the Jenin massacres, and we all know for certain that the Jenin massacre did not happen because with the exception of one person all those supposedly killed turned up alive and well, same as those doctors and nurses did in Beirut in 1982 that one of your "eye-witnesses" claimed she saw executed.

You have been asked to substantiate your claim that 3,500 people were killed and you have singularly failed to do so. Your story has changed so many times it is getting hard to keep up. You've got Israeli bulldozers digging mass graves in God knows how many places but no bodies subsequently found even although at one of those locations massive reconstruction work involving extensive ground works uncovered nothing - not one single body - and there should have been at least one shouldn't there J.I.M. according to another of your "eye-witnesses".

By the way J.I.M. an example of demonstrating the art of being inarticulate:

Jim Carroll - 24 Sep 16 - 10:51 AM

"I was reading it the other day when I was confirming that you were twelling lies about my "secret Graves".
No mass graves were looked for, which is the point of Fisk's artificial"

Twelling??

Fisk's artificial what?

Perhaps you should start taking more water with it, or better still engage your brain before you type anything.

Old saying Jom - "People in glass houses should not throw stones"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:54 AM

"Twelling"
Bit bereft of ideas if you have to highlight typos but is sums up your position perfectly
I assume you haven't quite got over 'last night's fun' yet.
"Now then J.I.M. tell us all exactly what it is that I have "denied"."
Take your pick - just about everything here and more - tell us what you've accepted other than the word of the isreali establishment
Take your pick
Jim Carroll

The survivors of Sabra and Shatila watched in mute horror, powerless to stop marauding militiamen from exterminating, mutilating, and raping their children, parents, husbands, wives, and friends. The lucky ones know where their loved ones' bodies are buried; many more, however, still have no clue about the final resting place of their dead. And in the hours and days after the massacres, many Palestinian men and boys were rounded up and trucked away, never to be seen again, most notably from a sports stadium near the refugee camps where Israeli military and intelligence officers were present. A mass grave site at the edge of the refugee camp now does double duty as a garbage dump and an occasional soccer field. Nearly 20 years after the massacre, not a single permanent memorial has been erected to commemorate the dead, not a single person--Israeli or Lebanese--has stood trial for the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in the camps of Sabra and Shatila in September 1982. Such impunity is not only morally reprehensible and psychologically unbearable, but also politically dangerous because of the precedent it sets and the hearts and minds it poisons.
For those who covered the Sabra and Shatila massacre as journalists, no less than for those who served as medical workers in the camps' hospitals that scorching September twenty years ago, this week's televised images/archive/archive of Israeli tanks surrounding refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza and the photographs of young men lined up, blindfolded and separated from their families as Israeli soldiers point guns at them, are chillingly familiar. Those who have witnessed massacres fear another may unfold at any minute. Those who survived the massacres are incredulous that it might happen again, but this time with the entire world witnessing the killings on prime time television. Those who have followed Ariel Sharon's biography closely--from the cold-blooded attack on the village of Qibya in 1953 that he orchestrated as leader of the notorious Unit 101, resulting in the deaths of nearly 70 innocent civilians, to his latest threats to wreak large scale destruction and collective punishment on Palestinians who have been trapped in their towns and villages under a long siege--urgently warn that Sharon must be stopped before mass graves are dug again in other refugee camps.
Laurie King-Irani
North American Coordinator
International Campaign for Justice for the Victims of Sabra and Shatila


Aftermath – persecution of refugees
Meanwhile, despite Yaron's apparent order from the morning, the pace of the killing had hardly slowed. As executions, knifings, and point-blank shootings continued, bulldozers were at work digging mass graves inside the camps—one of the largest being in full view of the IDF forward command— and, as witnessed by a Norwegian envoy, loading scoops of bodies onto trucks just outside the camp to be hauled away.2 3 A pattern had moreover emerged of executing groups and then bulldozing houses to bury the bodies under the rubble. At the same time, truckloads of Palestinian men, women, and children were seen leaving the camp—a Danish TV crew on Friday filmed groups being herded into trucks near Shatila.2 4 The bulldozing and dynamiting of houses (the "illegal structures" referred to by the Phalange to the Israelis), often with the inhabitants inside, accelerated.
Kapeliouk makes a similar point when describing Israel's provision of bulldozers to the Phalangists during the massacres. In a passage that seems eerily current in this summer of 2002, he writes,
Since the beginning of the war in June 1982, the Israelis have repeatedly used bulldozers to destroy homes and force the residents to flee. The refugee camps of south Lebanon were bombarded and then destroyed with explosives and bulldozers. In Israel, this operation was known as "the destruction of the terrorist infrastructure." The objective was to prevent the Palestinians from forming a national community in Lebanon. Therefore, it was necessary to destroy not only homes, but also Palestinian institutions such as schools, hospitals, and social service centers. In addition, the Israelis sought to deprive the Palestinian population of all males by arresting thousands of men and forcing thousands more to flee.3 3
Amnon Kapeliouk Israeli Author and Journalist

Elsewhere, one could find women with their heads blown apart and others rotting together with the garbage surrounded by flies. A Norwegian diplomat, Gunnar Flakstad, said he saw a pile of bodies being taken off in a scoop bulldozer, apparently destined for burial. In the middle of the camp, near some of the worst bodies, was a freshly dug hole covered with red dirt and patted down by a bulldozer. The site is believed to be a mass grave.
New York Times

Nearby the Israelis continued their roundup of suspected Palestinian guerrillas. Israeli troops armed with loudspeakers drove through the Sabra refugee camp and the Fakhani Palestinian quarter and ordered all men to go to the sports stadium with their identification papers for interrogation.
By late afternoon 500 to 600 men were huddled together under several tiers of the stadium awaiting questioning. The men were being provided with food and water, and anyone in need of medical attention was being treated. The wives and sisters of many of those inside stood behind a fence begging reporters, kissing them up and down the arm, if they would only go in and find out about the fate of their husbands, sons or brothers.
The Israeli commander in charge, Col. Naftali Bahiry, said the identification papers of each man would be checked to determine whether or not he was a Palestine Liberation Organization guerrilla who had been ordered to take off his uniform and stay behind in civilian clothes in violation of the withdrawal agreement. The Begin Government says there are some 2,000 such guerrillas still in the camp. Most Are Not P.L.O. Guerrillas
Colonel Bahiry conceded that most of those being detained by the Israelis after questioning were not P.L.O. guerrillas ordered to stay behind, since few of those were apparently being found. Rather they were members of the Palestinian militia, which is made up of older men or school boys and was in charge of providing law and order in the camps.
Those who belonged to the militia are known as Lebanese Palestinians - the Palestinians who have lived in Beirut since 1948 and who unlike the guerrillas did not come here to fight. The militiamen are for the most part students, workers or businessmen who fight only when called upon to protect the camps.
Asked if all the Palestinian fighters being found by the Israelis were simply local militiamen rather than guerrillas ordered to stay behind by Yasir Arafat, the P.L.O. leader, as the Begin Government claimed, Colonel Bahiry stated, ''Oh, much more than half are militiamen.''
As the Palestinian men trudged to the sports stadium for interrogation, many asked reporters if any Phalangists or Haddad men were there, as they had heard of the killings in Shatila. One woman, Badria Muhaid, said she had her father and three brothers inside the sports stadium with the Israelis, but her 15-year-old brother, Marwan, had been taken away Friday night from the Sabra refugee camp by the Phalangists working together with the Israelis. Interrogated by Haddad's Militia
Colonel Bahiry declared the Haddad men and the Phalangists had been ordered out of the area this morning -but it appears to have been a little too late for the residents of Shatila.
According to residents of Shatila and reporters who visited the main street of the camp Friday evening, things were relatively calm in the area. One young boy, who declined to identify himself, said all the men were ordered out of the camp Friday and were divided up near the sports stadium between Lebanese and Palestinians. They were interrogated by members of Major Haddad's militia, which was transported into Beirut by the Israeli Army. Some of the men, he charged, were cut across the cheek when they refused to cooperate in the interrogation.
New York Times


Amos Yaron Charged For Genocide At Sabra & Shatilla
By Professor Francis A. Boyle
30 August, 2013
26. At this same meeting, the Phalangists requested the I.D.F. to provide them with a tractor for use in the camps "to demolish illegal structures." Defendant Yaron has acknowledged in testimony under oath that at the end of the meeting it was "clear" that "the Phalangists could still enter the camps, bring in tractors and do what they wanted ….", and in fact the Phalangists continued to operate unchecked in the camps throughout the night of September 17 and the early morning hours of September 18. I.D.F. forces under the defendant Yaron's command supplied the Phalangists with a tractor from which I.D.F. markings had been removed. During the night and the following morning the Phalangists used tractors and bulldozers to pile up and bury in mass graves the bodies of hundreds of men, women, and children they had killed in the camps.
Francis Anthony Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law

"There is further evidence which indicates the extent of Israel's complicity in the massacre. The discovery in one of the camps of an Israeli sergeant's identity tag does not prove that he actually took part in the killing but it is significant that the Israeli army did not allow him to appear before the Israeli Commission of Enquiry. More importantly, the Israelis were prepared to assist their Phalangist allies in a number of different ways: they lent bulldozers so that the killers could bury some of the dead; they fired flares throughout the night of 16 September–at a rate of two a minute according to one Israeli soldier — so that the killers could see what they were doing; worst of all, they prevented civilians from fleeing and forced those who tried back into the camps." –
Mondoweiss

As we continued down the street, we—there was an area that had been part of the camp. And suddenly, there were—there was bulldozers with an Israeli—with a Hebrew letter on it, and it was going back and forth, back and forth. That, I'm sure, turned out to be the mass grave. We were—we kept on walking. Walkie-talkies. We reached the end of the camp, and we turned a corner. This was outside of the camp. They lined us up against a bullet-ridden wall, and they had their rifles ready. And we really thought this is—I mean, it was a firing squad. Suddenly, an Israeli soldier comes running down the street and halts it. I suppose the idea of gunning down foreign health workers was something that was not very appealing to the Israelis. But the fact that they could see this and stop it shows that there was—there was some communication.
Ellen Seigal (eye witness)

"The precise number of victims of the massacre may never be exactly determined. The International Committee of the Red Cross counted 1,500 at the time but by September 22 this count had risen to 2,400. On the following day 350 bodies were uncovered so that the total then ascertained had reached 2,750. Kapeliouk points out that to the number of bodies found after the massacre one should add three categories of victims:
(a) Those buried in mass graves whose number cannot be ascertained because the Lebanese authorities forbade their opening;
(b) Those who were buried under the ruins of houses; and
(c) Those who were taken alive to an unknown destination but never returned.
The precise number of victims of the massacre may never be exactly determined. The International Committee of the Red Cross counted 1,500 at the time but by September 22 this count had risen to 2,400. On the following day 350 bodies were uncovered so that the total then ascertained had reached 2,750. Kapeliouk points out that to the number of bodies found after the massacre one should add three categories of victims:
(a) Those buried in mass graves whose number cannot be ascertained because the Lebanese authorities forbade their opening;
(b) Those who were buried under the ruins of houses; and
(c) Those who were taken alive to an unknown destination but never returned.
The bodies of some of them were found by the side of the roads leading to the south. Kapeliouk asserts that the number of victims may be 3,000 to 3,500, one-quarter of whom were Lebanese, while the remainder were Palestinians."(4)

On September 16, 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces ("IDF") occupying Beirut as a result of Israel's June invasion of Lebanon permitted the Phalangists, a Lebanese Christian militia, to enter the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla. From approximately 6:00 P.M. September 16 until 8:00 A.M. September 18, the Phalangists, and perhaps other militia, massacred men, women and children including Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians, Syrians, Pakistanis and Algerians. The exact number of those killed cannot be determined-bodies having been buried in the ruins, deposited in mass graves and carried from the site in truckloads. Estimates of those massacred have ranged from roughly 300 to as many as 3000 people.
The Kahan Report

On Saturday morning, September 18, 1982 Israeli Mossad agents inside the camp actually were observed driving three of the bulldozers in a frantic attempt to assist the Christian militia in covering up evidence of the crime before the exported international media arrived on the scene. The late American journalist, Janet Lee Stevens, documented that during Sept. 18 and 19th, most of the massacre victims killed during this period were slaughtered inside the joint Israeli-Lebanese Forces "interrogation center." Janet testified that these killed were put in flatbed trucks and taken to the Golf Course, just 300 yards away, where waiting Israeli bulldozers dug pits. Other trucks drove in the direction of East Beirut. At the time of her death, seven months later, Janet was preparing her report for publication. This observer packed Janet's belongings and after some wrangling with the US Embassy staff who had arrived on the plane President Ronald Reagan sent to return Janet and the other Americans remains to the US, her two cardboard boxes of papers and research notes were onboard.
29 Years After the Massacre at Sabra Shatila Franklin Lamb    SEPTEMBER 16, 2011 by FRANKLIN LAMB
'Franklin Lamb is a former Assistant Counsel of the US House Judiciary Committee and Professor of International Law at Northwestern College of Law, Portland, Oregon.

Sabra Shatila Timeline
9 July 1982: Sharon announces that he will in a few months time help the Lebanese Phalange militia "clean out" the Palestinian refugee camps of Beirut. The Labor Party daily newspaper, Davar, reports that an Israeli liaison officer then suggests that Israelis should accompany the Phalangists in their "mopping-up" mission. His idea is rejected on the spot, on the grounds that the Phalangists can be expected to commit atrocities, so it would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be personally involved.
21 August 1982: The international community intervenes to end the siege of Beirut. Under the protection of an international force, all PLO fighters are to depart Beirut for Tunis. As this will leave undefended the Palestinian civilians in the Beirut refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, Yasser Arafat refuses to evacuate the PLO unless the US guarantees their safety. After receiving assurances from Israel, Ronald Reagan's Mid East envoy, Ambassador Phillip Habib, guarantees that the IDF will not enter West Beirut and that Palestinian civilians there will come to no harm. He provides a written assurance to the PLO: The Governments of Lebanon and the United States will provide appropriate guarantees of the safety...of law-abiding Palestinian noncombatants left in Beirut, including the families of those who have departed...The U.S. will provide its guarantees on the basis of assurances received from the Government of Israel and the leaders of certain Lebanese groups with which it has been in contact.
23 August 1982: The Lebanese Parliament elects Israel's protégé, Bashir Gemayel, President of Lebanon. Gemayel is the sworn enemy of the Palestinians. Two months earlier, in an interview published in Le Nouvel Observateur, he declared that in the Middle East, "there is one people too many: the Palestinian people."
(Phalangist threats to massacre the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have already been widely reported in the Israeli press. When news of Sabra and Shatila breaks, Knesset Member Amnon Rubenstein [Shinui] reports that, during a visit by Israeli parliamentarians to Israeli-occupied south Lebanon, he met members of the Phalangist Party who openly expressed their intention to massacre the Palestinians. One of them told him: "The death of one Palestinian is pollution; the death of all the Palestinians is the solution.")
1 September 1982: Bamahaneh, the IDF's official weekly newspaper, reports that [a] high-ranking Israeli officer heard the following words uttered by a Phalangist officer: 'The question we ask ourselves is: what should we start with? Rape or murder? ... If the Palestinians have any common sense, they should try to leave Beirut. You do not have any idea of the slaughter to befall the Palestinians, civilians or terrorists, who will remain in town. Their attempt to blend into the local population will be futile. The sword and gun of Christian fighters would pursue them everywhere and will exterminate them once and for all.'
1 September 1982: All PLO fighters (15,000 in all) are evacuated from Beirut. The Lebanese authorities urge the multinational protection force to remain in Beirut, to help the Lebanese Army reassert control of West Beirut. Israel intercedes with the US to have the protection force removed immediately.
10 September 1982 – Having received assurances from Ariel Sharon for the safety of Palestinians in West Beirut, multinational forces begin to withdraw from the city.
11 September 1982 – Ariel Sharon announces that 2000 "terrorists" remain in the refugee camps, and that he will have to "clean them out". U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, Nicholas Veliotes, warns that the claim that 2000 fighters remain in Sabra and Shatila is simply a pretext for Israel to seize West Beirut.
12 September 1982 – Ariel Sharon meets with president-elect Gemayel, to coordinate the "cleaning out" of the camps.
13 September 1982 - The last 850 French paratroopers and infantrymen of the Multinational Force leave Beirut, ten days prior to the expiration of their mandate. Israeli Chief of Staff Gen. Rafael Eitan confirms before the Knesset Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defense that PLO forces have evacuated the city and that: "Only a few terrorists and a small PLO office remain in Beirut." (Ha'aretz, September 15, 1982)
14 September 1982 – Bashir Gemayel is assassinated by a remote-controlled bomb at his headquarters. Ariel Sharon informs Gemayel's Phalangist militias that Israel has proof the Palestinians are responsible. (The bombing was actually carried out by Habib Chartouni, an agent of Syrian Intelligence).
14 September 1982, 6:00pm – Ariel Sharon contacts PM Begin. They decide to send the IDF into Muslim West Beirut without informing the Israeli government. (The Israeli government will not find out that its army is occupying Beirut until it finds out the following day from Voice of Israel radio broadcasts).
14 September 1982 - In an interview that Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv will publish on 16 Sept, Israeli Chief of Staff Gen. Rafael Eitan declares: We are going to mop-up West Beirut, gather all the weapons, arrest the terrorists, exactly like we did in Sidon and Tyre and in all other places in Lebanon. We will find all the terrorists and their leaders. We will destroy whatever requires destruction.
14 September 1982, 6:00pm - An officer of Lebanese Internal Security, on duty near Beirut International Airport, notes the beginning of an airlift of Israeli military equipment into the city.
Wednesday 15 September, 1982
00:30am – IDF Major General Amir Drori, commander of Israel's northern region and occupied south Lebanon, receives orders to seize all key points in West Beirut.
03:30am - Israeli Generals Eitan and Drori meet with Fadi Frem, C-in-C of the Phalangist militia and his chief of intelligence, Elie Hobeika [2]. On September 22, Ariel Sharon acknowledges to the Knesset that at this meeting "the principle of Phalangist entry into the refugee camps of Beirut was discussed." At the end of the meeting, one of the Phalangist commanders tells the Israelis: "We have been waiting for this moment, for many years."
05:00am - The Israelis occupy West Beirut, meeting little resistance, but causing great devastation. IDF troops have orders to disarm, in their advance, all Muslim and leftist militias. Colonel Zvi Elpeleg, former Israeli governor of Nabatiyyeh, comments: In Lebanese society, paradoxically, the continuous presence of armed civilians has been an element of equilibrium and mutual deterrence. The entry of Israeli troops into West Beirut has subverted the existing facts. The Israelis have disarmed thousands of citizens, including members of the Shiite movement, Amal. Most of these were simple workers or peasants who bought these weapons with their meager savings for personal defense. These people, therefore, found themselves exposed, at the mercy of the Phalangists. (Ma'ariv, September 26, 1982).
09:00am - Ariel Sharon arrives in Beirut to personally direct the IDF campaign from the Israeli HQ located on the roof of a large building at the Kuwaiti Embassy crossroads, overlooking the city and the Sabra and Shatila camps.
09:00am - The Israeli occupation of West Beirut provokes unanimous protest throughout the world. President Reagan's special envoy, Morris Draper, visits PM Begin in Jerusalem. Begin assures him that Israel's goal in West Beirut is simply to maintain order and prevent "pogroms". He does not mention that Israel intends to allow the Phalangists into the Palestinian camps.
PLO leaders are fearful for the Palestinians left behind in West Beirut, and now under Israeli occupation. They remind the world that they have signed assurances from American envoy Philip Habib guaranteeing the safety of Palestinian civilians after the departure of PLO fighters from Beirut. Farouq Qaddoumi, head of the PLO political department, declares: "We have been given a word of honor that Israel would not enter West Beirut, this promise was broken." Former Lebanese Prime Minister Sa'eb Salam, the intermediary who helped broker the "Habib Agreements", confirms that the Israeli entry into the western part of the city is a violation of the signed accords. Senior State Department officials confirm the view expressed by Sa'eb Salam.
Noon - IDF tanks surround Sabra and Shatila, and Israeli soldiers set up check-points around the camps, allowing them to control all entrances and exits. Anxiety begins to mount among the refugees, who in the past were defended by the now-departed PLO fighters. Most inhabitants lock themselves inside their homes.
Late afternoon/early evening - The IDF launches sporadic shellfire at Sabra and Shatila. Norwegian Doctor Per Maehlumshagen, an orthopaedic surgeon at Gaza Hospital situated to the west of Sabra, treats about fifteen wounded civilians. Other Palestinian wounded, generally victims of sniper fire, arrive the same evening at Akka Hospital, across the road that marks the southern edge of Shatila.
Evening - An Israeli divisional intelligence officer, providing an update briefing on the situation in the camps, reports to the Chief of Staff: "It seems there are no terrorists there, in the camp; Sabra camp is empty." (Kahan Commission Final Report, p. 24).
Thursday 16 September, 1982
08:00am - Gen. Eitan chairs a meeting at Israeli HQ, in which he describes for General Saguy (IDF director of intelligence), a high-ranking representative of the Mossad, and the head of the Shin Bet, the Phalangists' imminent operation in the camps.
Noon - IDF Gen. Drori meets with Fadi Frem, Chief of Staff of the Lebanese Forces, to ascertain whether the Phalangists are ready to enter Sabra and Shatila. Frem responds: "Yes, immediately", and is given permission to proceed.
03:00pm - Brigadier General Amos Yaron (commander of Israeli forces in Beirut) meets Frem and his intelligence chief, Elie Hobeika. Using aerial photographs furnished by the Israelis, they coordinate the details of the Phalangist entry into the camps. Yaron assures the Lebanese that his troops will supply all the necessary assistance "to mop up the terrorists in the camps."
Following the meeting, Gen. Drori calls Ariel Sharon to announce: "Our friends are marching on the camps. We have coordinated their entry." Ariel Sharon replies, "The operation of our friends is approved. Congratulations!" It is not known whether Drori informs Sharon that the Phalangist commanders have told him: ''Bones are going to be broken in the camps." (On October 31, Drori will reveal to the Commission of Inquiry that one of his officers warns him that the Phalangists might massacre the Palestinians).
04:00pm - A Phalangist unit of 150 men, assembled near the airport, begins to move. It advances to the Phalangist HQ at the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle. Across the road from the Phalangist HQ, the Israelis set up a command and observation post in an apartment building, which stands 200 meters from one of the massacre sites in Shatila. From the roof of this seven-story building, "it is possible to see into at least part of the Shatila camp, including those parts where piles of dead bodies were found later." (New York Times, September 26, 1982).
Late afternoon - Israeli soldiers manning roadblocks at the entrance of the Shatila camp receive an order by radio to allow the Phalangist forces into the camp at sunset.
05:00pm The Phalangists enter Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. The organized murder of the inhabitants begins immediately, in the Arsal neighborhood of Shatila, across from Israeli headquarters. The Israeli HQ building is seven storeys high and only 200 meters from the major location of the carnage. One Israeli officer says that watching from the roof is like watching "from the front row of a theater."
Evening - Phalangist militiamen murder hundreds of people in the first hours after entry. They shoot everything that moves in the alleys, then break into homes and liquidate whole families at the dinner table, or asleep in bed. In many cases, the victims are dismembered. Infants are killed by having their heads smashed against the walls of their homes. Women and girls are raped before being killed. Most of the victims on the first evening are hacked to death with knives and hatchets (most of the second day's victims will be shot at point-blank range). In some houses, the Phalangists spare the life of a single family member - killing the rest in front of him or her - so the survivor can recount what he lived through and spread terror among the Palestinians.
In the Horsh Tabet area, all 45 members of the Miqdad family are murdered. Some have their throats cut, others are disemboweled, among them a 29 year old woman named Zeinab, who is 8 months pregnant and whose foetus is placed in her arms. Her seven other children are also murdered. Another relative, Wafa Hammoud, 26 years old and in her seventh month of pregnancy, is also killed with her four children. A seven year old daughter of the Miqdad family is raped before being killed. In the same neighborhood, several other women are raped before being murdered, and their naked bodies arranged in the street in the form of a cross.
Evening - Four elderly men from Shatila form a delegation to try to stop the massacre. They are last seen heading south to the Israeli HQ, where they intend to tell the Israelis there are no fighters in the camp, and the civilians wish to surrender. They never arrive, and are found dead near the Kuwaiti Embassy several days later.
07:30pm - The Israeli Cabinet meets in Jerusalem. Cabinet members complain that the government should have been consulted before the IDF was sent into West Beirut, but they agree a draft resolution affirming that the seizure of West Beirut is necessary "in order to forestall the danger of violence, bloodshed and chaos." Defence Minister Sharon mentions in passing that Phalangist forces have entered the refugee camps "in order to clear out terrorist nests." He adds that the contact with the Phalangists is continuing and that their actions are totally coordinated with those of the Israeli Army. Only David Levy, the deputy PM, mentions the possibility that the Phalangists might massacre the Palestinians. The meeting lasts 4 hours. Most of the discussion centers on how to counter U.S. pressure for the IDF to get out of Beirut. The Cabinet devotes less than 5 minutes to the entry of the Phalangists into Sabra and Shatila.
Evening/Night - The Israeli soldiers stationed around the camps' perimeter quickly began to realize that something terrible is happening inside. Two Israeli paratroopers tell correspondent Michael Gerti: On Thursday evening, as darkness fell, Palestinian women from Shatila arrived at the post and hysterically told us that the Phalangists were shooting their children and putting the men in trucks. I reported this to my commander, but all he said was: 'It is okay, do not worry.' My order was to tell the women to go back home. However, many women, and entire families as well, ran away from the camps to the north. I went back and repeated my report over and over. Each time, however, the answer was the same: "It is okay."...It was possible to stop the massacre in Shatila, even on Thursday; had they acted on what we reported to our commander. (Ha'aretz, September 23, 1982).
Evening/Night: A Palestinian resident of Sabra approaches the first Israeli checkpoint to the west of the camp, and tells an Arabic-speaking IDF soldier named Rami what is happening: I told him about meeting a woman wounded in her arm who told me that Sa'ad Haddad's men were killing everyone. The officer asked me if we were armed. I told him that some were armed, but that they only had weapons for personal defense. He told me to announce to the whole population that they must gather these weapons and surrender them before 5 o'clock. As for the massacre, it didn't interest him at all.
Evening/Night: An Israeli nurse gives medical treatment to a wounded nine-month-old baby who has been brought to his medical post by his only-surviving relative. The baby dies. A Phalangist militiaman later sees the baby lying dead and blurts out: "Would you like to get rid of this bundle? I will throw it in the garbage." The nurse testifies that this makes him realize a real carnage is taking place, and he alerts his superiors.
Evening/Night - A militiaman boasts to Israeli soldiers manning a checkpoint: "We have already killed 250 terrorists." One of the soldiers later recalls for journalists that this made the soldiers laugh, and one of them commented: "These [Phalangists] and their exaggerations... How could they have killed 250 terrorists when we have not heard the noise of combat?". The soldier adds, "When he left, we stopped laughing and began to realize that indeed a massacre was unfolding."
10:00pm - Electric power is abruptly cut off in all of West Beirut. Israeli soldiers around the perimeter receive an order to fire illumination flares above Sabra and Shatila, starting at midnight.
11:00pm - News of the massacre begins arriving at the Israeli headquarters from forward command posts near the Shatila camp. They report casualties in the camps, including "terrorists and civilians." The commander of the Phalangist troops in the Shatila camp reports to the Israelis that, "Thus far we have liquidated 300 civilians and terrorists." This report is immediately communicated to Tel Aviv where it is conveyed to more than twenty high-ranking IDF officers.
Night - Israeli troops around the camp fire flares from all directions above Sabra and Shatila. According to one Israeli soldier, his unit fires two 81mm illuminating flares every minute for a duration of several hours. The Israeli Air Force also drops flares to light the camps. International press correspondents based in Beirut see the camps lit up at night, and ask for an explanation from Israeli military spokesmen. The spokesmen don't answer.
Overnight - Casualties pour into the Gaza and Akka Hospitals, bringing news of terrible massacres. At the same time, 1000-2000 civilians, in a state of indescribable panic, seek sanctuary in the hospitals.
Friday 17 September, 1982
01:00am - IDF radio reports from Beirut that "the IDF will not operate tonight to purge the areas of Sabra and Shatila ... It was decided to entrust the Phalange with the mission to carry out these purging operations." The report was rebroadcast at 02:00am, never to be repeated afterward.
Daybreak - Israeli officers and soldiers watch with binoculars what is happening inside the Shatila camp. They can see piles of bodies and men being lined up for execution. Soldiers from an armored unit stationed 100 meters from the camp report that they can see the execution of civilians by the militiamen. Lieutenant Avi Grabowski, deputy commander of an IDF tank company witnesses the Phalangists killing civilians, including women and children. He confronts a Phalangist about killing pregnant women. The Phalangist answers that "pregnant women will give birth to terrorists." Israeli soldiers who report Phalangist atrocities against civilians to their superiors are ordered not to interfere with what is happening in the camps and not to enter the area. When Grabowski reports to his battalion commander, he is told: "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere."
05:30am - Lieutenant Colonel Moshe Hevroni, the bureau chief at IDF General Staff HQ in Tel Aviv, receives a report indicating that 300 casualties are reported in the camps. At 07:30am, he passes this information to Avi Duda'i, a personal aide to Defense Minister Sharon.
On 22 September, Sharon will inform the Knesset: Once the first rumors reached us as to what was occurring in the camps, the northern commander [General Drori] immediately took certain measures to halt the activities of the Phalangists in Shatila... [The IDF] put an end to Phalangist activity as early as Friday around noon. We eventually evacuated them from the area by Saturday noon. This is not true. Throughout Friday, fresh Phalangist troops are admitted into the camps, bringing the total number of assailants up to about 400. The rampage continues all day Friday, with the approval of the IDF (see entry for 04:30pm, below). It is not until 10:00am on Saturday that the massacre finally stops.
Morning - Upon hearing the news that the IDF has entered West Beirut, some Israelis express the fear that this new offensive might be followed by a massacre of Palestinians and the destruction of their camps. A statement from former MK Uri Avneri, appears in this morning's Israeli press, accusing Ariel Sharon of seeking to destroy the refugee camps of West Beirut under the guise of a military operation.
08:00am - Several foreign journalists try to enter the camps, after hearing alarming rumors about what is going on inside. Roy Wilkinson of Newsweek, is stopped from going in by IDF soldiers and Phalangists manning a roadblock. While Wilkinson is talking to the soldiers, a militiaman rushes to the roadblock and announces he had found "an old man." He receives orders to shoot the man. An Israeli officer named Elie explains to Wilkinson that Israeli forces have been ordered not to disturb the militias who are "mopping up the area."(Newsweek, October 4, 1982).
Morning - Additional Phalangist troops enter Shatila through the southern and western entrances. They are equipped with jeeps, trucks, and three bulldozers (at least one of which has been supplied by the IDF, after having its identification removed). The bulldozers will be used for home demolitions and for the preparation of mass graves.
Morning - Phalangist militiamen escort foreign medical personnel from the Akka Hospital, and deliver them into the care of the ICRC. The evacuated medical staff alert the press and the diplomatic corps to the grave developments in the camps.
Between 11:00am and noon - Armed militiamen arrive at Akka Hospital. They murder several of the wounded in their beds, and kill camp residents who have been seeking sanctuary at the hospital. Forty of the people sheltering in the hospital are forced into a truck, and driven away. They are never accounted for. Militiamen also murder two Palestinian doctors, Ali Othman and Sami Khatib, and an Egyptian staff member. A 19-year-old Palestinian nurse named Intisar Ismail is raped by about ten men, then killed. A Lebanese colleague can identify her mutiliated body only because he recognises a ring on her hand.
11:00am - Gen. Amos Yaron reports to Gen. Amir Drori from Israeli HQ overlooking the camps that rumors of "irregular activity" by the Phalangists in the camps are getting more and more persistent. Yaron tells the Phalangist liaison officer at Israeli HQ that the Phalangists must cease firing immediately. But he does not order them to vacate the camps, nor does he verify whether the cease-fire order is being implemented, or send IDF troops to the camp to determine what is happening.
12:00am - Gen. Drori reports to Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan in Tel Aviv that something "suspicious" is taking place in the camps. Eitan leaves Tel Aviv for Beirut, arriving at 03:30pm.
Shortly after noon - Militiamen gather about one hundred men on the main road south of Shatila. After separating Palestinians from Lebanese, they begin torturing the former by slashing their faces with knives and interrogating them.
Late morning/Early afternoon - Additional Phalangist troops gather by Beirut International Airport. The military correspondent of Israeli television, Ron Ben-Yishai, asks their commander where they are going. The commander replies: "Military mission." Ben-Yishai notes that the Phalangist convoy includes 13 tanks, half-tracks equipped with 120mm mortars, vehicles armed with heavy machineguns and many "command cars." He also observes that the soldiers combat gear, even their uniforms, have been supplied by the IDF: the Phalangists have simply replaced the inscription "Tzahal" (i.e. IDF) with the words "Lebanese Forces."
While awaiting for orders, the Phalangists are unambiguous about their mission, boasting: "We are going to kill them", and "We are going to f*ck their mothers and sisters." Eventually, the Phalangist column departs north along the airport road, and enters Shatila from the south and east.
04:30pm - Accompanied by Gen. Drori and Gen. Yaron, Gen Eitan meets Phalangist officers (including Fadi Frem) at Lebanese Forces HQ. According to the testimony of Gen. Yaron, Gen. Eitan congratulates the Phalangists on their operation. The Phalangists report that they have been "mopping up" the area. They complain that the Americans are pressuring them "to stop their operations in the camps," and appeal to the Israelis for "additional time to clean up the grounds." The two parties agree that, "All the Phalangists will leave the refugee camps on Saturday morning, the 18th of September". Until then, the Phalangists continue their "mopping up" operations.
According to the summary made by the Mossad representative at the meeting, Chief of Staff Eitan acknowledges that the Phalangists are mopping up "empty camps", i.e. empty of "terrorists". (Kahan Commission Final Report, p.37)
Throughout The Day - Access to the camp is blocked by Israeli soldiers, who repeatedly order fleeing refugees to turn back. During the afternoon, a crowd of 500 refugees sheltering in the Gaza Hospital in Sabra hear that the Phalangists are attacking the hospitals. Brandishing white flags, the crowd tries to escape the camp, but when they reach Beirut's main east-west thoroughfare, Corniche el-Mazra'a, they are stopped by Israeli soldiers. A spokesman for the group explains to the soldiers that Sa'ad Haddad's men are murdering civilians, but the soldiers order them back to the camp. When they hesitate, an Israeli tank chases them several hundred feet back toward the camps. (New York Times, September 26, 1982).
Throughout The Day - Phalangist units prepare mass graves for hundreds of the scattered corpses. Bulldozers dig one of the mass graves halfway between an Israeli position and IDF headquarters.
Throughout The Day - Eyewitnesses report that truckloads of civilians are being deported to unknown locations. A Danish TV cameraman, M. Petersen, actually films the militiamen loading men, women and children aboard such trucks on the edge of Shatila, just 400 meters from an Israeli position. Residents of the Lebanese villages of Shweifat and Hadath, south of Beirut, confirm that at noon on Friday, three large trucks and two smaller vehicles loaded with civilians pass through their area. None of the people loaded onto trucks will ever be accounted for.
08:00pm - Israeli TV correspondent Ron Ben-Yishai overhears a group of officers from a tank battalion surrounding Shatila say that a soldier and an officer from their unit has watched camp residents being lined up against the wall and summarily executed. They mentioned many "horrors," including the case of one resident who was killed with a shot to the head for refusing to follow the militiamen. The officers continue to discuss events in the camps throughout the rest of the evening. At 11:30pm, the correspondent tells them: "If you are certain of what you are describing; I will call the Minister of Defense." Ben-Yishai calls Sharon at his farm, and tells him: "Something must be done immediately to put an end to this ... IDF soldiers have witnessed executions and murders... In a few hours, the entire world press will know the news, and then we'll be in a big mess." Ben-Yishai states afterwards: "Sharon hardly spoke. We greeted each other on the Jewish New Year and hung up. My impression is that he was rather aware of the developments in the camps."
Saturday 18 September, 1982
06:00am - A group of militiamen with bullhorns call upon the surviving residents to come out of their homes and shelters, assuring them they will not be harmed. As many as 1,000 bewildered survivors - mostly elderly people, women and children - gather in Shatila's main street (Abu Hassan Salameh Street), carrying white flags and Lebanese flags. The militiamen march them at gunpoint south along the street, intermittently selecting out small groups of people who are stood up against the wall of the nearest house and shot. A bulldozer then demolishes each house to hide the bodies under the rubble. Near the camp entrance, Phalangists separate Palestinians from Lebanese citizens. Some Palestinians are taken away in small groups; often, the noise of sustained gunfire is heard, just after a group disappears from sight. Other Palestinians are forced onto trucks parked in front of the Kuwaiti Embassy, and driven away. People taken by the militiamen will never be seen again.
Between 06:00am and 07:00am - Seven Phalangist militiamen come to Gaza Hospital in the northern part of Sabra. They order the medical staff (22 doctors and nurses; mostly internationals, but also including 2 Palestinians) to gather by the entrance. The militiamen check the nationalities of the medical staff, over the objections of a Norwegian physician, Dr. Per Maehlumshagen. A Palestinian male nurse is dragged out of the line and murdered. A Palestinian colleague and a Syrian staff member are also shot. The rest of the medical team is marched down the main street of Shatila Phalangist headquarters near the Kuwaiti Embassy traffic circle. The militiamen harangue them as "Communist scum" and "people who help our enemies". Israeli HQ is located across the street from Phalangist HQ; Israeli Gen. Amos Yaron sees the mistreatment of the internationals, and orders their release.
08:00am - General Amos Yaron observes the remnants of the crowd of most elderly people, women and children, who were gathered at the camp entrance at 06:00am. He announces that the women and children may leave. The men are taken to the nearby Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium for interrogation by the Israelis, who warn them that they must "reveal terrorist hideouts" because, "If you do not tell us the truth, you know that the Phalangists and Sa'ad Haddad's men are here!". Twenty-eight dead prisoners are subsequently found in the sports stadium, their hands tied behind their backs.
Early Morning - U.S. special envoy, Morris Draper (deputy to Phillip Habib), demands of the Israeli Foreign Ministry: You must stop the massacres. They are obscene. I have an officer in the camp counting the bodies. You ought to be ashamed. The situation is rotten and terrible. They are killing children. You are in absolute control of the area and therefore responsible for that area. (Testimony of Israeli FM official Bruce Kashdan to the Kahan Commission of Inquiry; cited in the LA Times, 22 Nov 1982).
10:00am - Israeli tanks approach the main gate of Shatila. Militiamen of the Lebanese Forces get into their vehicles, evacuate the camps, and return to their bases. The camps are silent. Survivors begin to emerge, and to search through the rubble for members of their families.
10:00am - Journalist Robert Fisk and two colleagues are driving past Shatila when they notice an overwhelming smell. They enter the camp, and find dazed survivors and dead refugees in every alley. (Read part of their description). Fisk climbs onto an earthen wall to survey the scene. It shifts beneath his feet, and he realises he is not standing on a wall but on a hurriedly-covered mound of bodies. He falls, and finds himself face to face with the head of a child whose lower jaw has been hacked off. Fisk returns to his bureau to file a report on what he has seen. His editor will not allow him to use the word "massacre" to describe the actions of "our" side.
Noon - Terrorized survivors have left the camps and spread word of what has happened. American and European journalists and diplomats arrive at the camps and discover hundreds of scattered bodies and mangled limbs. A group including the French Ambassador finds a mother hugging her baby in her arms, both shot with a bullet in the head; naked women with their feet and wrists tied behind them; a baby whose head has been crushed, lying in a pool of blood with a milk-feeding bottle next to him; and the mutilated parts of a baby carefully arranged in a circle with the head neatly placed on top.
Foreign correspondents file their first reports. Their reports and pictures have a huge impact worldwide.
Morning - Lebanese Army soldiers and Red Cross rescue workers begin recovering bodies from the rubble. Recovery operations cease after a couple of days, because of the advanced decomposition of the bodies, leaving many of the demolished homes unsearched.
Journalists interview Israeli troops, who say they saw and heard nothing, or say nothing at all. The military correspondent of Ma'arivwrites: "I have never seen our soldiers so silent throughout this war... They listened to our questions, but did not answer". However, some Phalangists are happy to be interviewed. One officer tells a U.S. journalist: "We have waited for years to be able to enter the camps of West Beirut. The Israelis chose us because we are better than they at this kind of house-to-house operation." When the journalist asks him if they had taken any prisoners, he responds: "This is not the kind of operation in which prisoners are taken."
Noon - The Israeli government tries to distance itself from any responsibility in its first official statement: "We do not know anything about these alleged massacres. There is no Israeli presence in the camps themselves. We do not know what is happening in these camps."
08:00pm Voice of Israel Radio reports that "Phalangists entered the vicinity of Shatila yesterday. On their way out they reported to Israeli forces that fierce fighting took place resulting in casualties on both sides. The army intervened to put an end to the hostilities. Instead of reproaching our armed forces we should rather congratulate them for intervening, belatedly, but in a situation where they did not have to intervene, thus preventing a much larger tragedy...."
Midnight - The Israeli Foreign Ministry states that "Israel condemns the massacre", and again maintains that the IDF's only involvement was to stop the Phalangists. But international correspondents reporting to a worldwide audience raise the questions that the Israeli government studiously avoids: such as how could the Phalangists get into the camp, when all of West Beirut was under Israeli occupation, and every entrance to Sabra and Shatila guarded by an IDF checkpoint? And how could the IDF be unaware of a 40-hour massacre taking place before their eyes?
In the United States, President Reagan attributes to Israel a large share of the responsibility for the massacre. A high-ranking American official confirms that the US "would be extremely surprised if Israel was really unaware of what happened in the camps... Israeli forces evidently controlled the whole sector where the massacres occurred."
Throughout the day - In the rest of West Beirut, the IDF continues to arrest and interrogate "terrorist suspects", as if nothing had happened. It picks up 1,000 suspects and takes them for interrogation at the Sports Stadium adjoining Sabra.
Night - By nightfall, the camps are deserted. Surviving residents are too terrified to stay overnight. For the following week, they sleep in the parks and schools of West Beirut.
Sunday September 19, 1982
Morning - US diplomats in Tel Aviv reveal that Lebanese intermediaries who negotiated the evacuation of the PLO from Beirut had repeatedly expressed their fear of a Phalangist massacre of camp residents, but that US envoy Philip Habib and his deputy Morris Draper had assured them that they had a "firm and clear commitment" from representatives of the Israeli government and military that such a massacre would not occur. "Now, we feel that by trusting Israeli promises, we have abandoned the Palestinian residents of the camps to their fate," the diplomats add. Ha'aretz quotes one of the diplomats: "They [the Palestinians] have placed their confidence in us. And we placed our trust in you [Israel]. Now we realize our mistake, but it is too late."
Late Morning - One thousand Israeli demonstrators gather outside PM Begin's residence. They chant "Begin is a murderer. Beirut-Deir Yassin 1982" [3] and ''Down with Sharon, the butcher of Qibya."[4].
Throughout the day. Medical and rescue teams continue retrieving and burying corpses. The body count is inexact. Israel estimates that 700-800 people were killed. French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, who compiled the first reconstruction of the massacre based on eyewitness testimony, suggests that this is a minimization of the death toll. He notes that the Lebanese authorities recorded 762 bodies buried or cremated by the Red Cross, and about 1200 bodies claimed by family members for private burial, for a total of about 2,000 dead.
Kapeliouk also notes that this number does not include those victims - he suggests in the low hundreds - bulldozed into mass graves during the assault. (The Lebanese authorities did not allow the exacavation of known or suspected mass grave sites, for fear of reigniting Lebanon's sectarian hatreds. They failed to hold a serious investigation into the massacre, for the same reason). Nor do the official figures account for those - again, possibly in the low hundreds - who remained buried under the rubble of destroyed homes after recovery efforts were abandoned due to advanced decomposition of the bodies.
The Lebanese official total also does not include those (in the high hundreds?) who were seen by multiple eyewitnesses being loaded onto trucks and driven away by the Phalangists. A few of the bodies of these missing people, apparently thrown from the trucks, were later discovered along the roads runnning south through the villages of Ouzai, Khalde, Haret el-Naimeh, and Kafr Shima. Other bodies were found on the Airport Road. But the majority were never recovered. American diplomats told the NY Times that they were feared massacred in southern Lebanon. (It is possible that some lie under the new stadium built on the ruins of Camille Chamoun Sports Stadium. And, according to the UK's Independent newspaper, some dozens are also buried near the Lebanese town of Jounieh [5]).
Kapeliouk concludes that, bearing in mind all these factors, it is probable that "between 3,000-3,500 men, women and children were massacred within 48 hours between September 16 and 18, 1982". About three-quarters of the dead were Palestinians, the remainder were Lebanese citizens. Nine of the dead were Jews, who had married Palestinians in the Mandate period, and had chosen to go into exile with them when they were expelled from their homes in Galilee in 1948.
Early Evening - Gen. Eitan holds a press conference in Beirut, and denies any responsibility for the atrocities. He blames the Phalangists and, indirectly, the Lebanese Army and the Americans.
10:00pm - In a special session of the Israeli Cabinet, PM Begin insists that suggestions of Israeli culpability are anti-Semitic, saying: "Goyim killing other goyim, and they accuse the Jews!" Begin refuses to hold a commission of inquiry, as this will be interpreted as "as an admission of guilt" in what is purely "an internal Lebanese affair." The Cabinet adopts and releases a statement absolving Israel of any responsibility; it raises again the fiction that the PLO left behind in the camps "2,000 terrorists" [6], and maintains that accusations of Israeli responsibility are a slanderous "blood libel".
Monday 20 September, 1982
Morning - Two trucks arrive at Shatila, bringing Lebanese soldiers to help with burials. Their bright green uniforms are reminiscent of the Lebanese militias'. Hundreds of panic-stricken survivors stampede northward out of the camp, believing that the militiamen have returned to finish them off.
Morning - The Israeli public and press do not believe their government's denials of involvement. Under the frontpage heading, "War Crime in Beirut", Ha'aretz's military correspondent Ze'ev Schiff reports: A war crime has been committed in the refugee camps of Beirut. The Phalangists have killed hundreds, if not more, of elderly people, women and children, exactly in the same fashion pogroms were carried out against Jews. It is not true, as claimed by official spokesmen that we didn't learn of this crime until Saturday at noon after receiving reports filed by foreign correspondents stationed in Beirut. I personally heard about it on Friday morning. I brought all my information to the attention of a senior official who took immediate action. In other words, the massacre began Thursday evening, and what I learned on Friday morning was certainly known to others before me.
Ha'aretz also publishes a statement by the Israeli Committee Against the War in Lebanon: Those who invaded Lebanon, those who ordered the Israeli Army to enter West Beirut, those who allied themselves with Phalangist murderers and helped them to enter the refugee camps - those are the ones responsible for the massacre of Palestinians. Those who disarmed the residents of West Beirut and delivered them to their enemies - they are the ones responsible for the massacre. Those who made the decision to 'establish order in Beirut,' are the ones responsible for the massacre committed by the 'guardians' they appointed. Begin, Sharon, and Eitan are fully responsible for the assassination of hundreds of elderly people, women and children.
Yosef Burg, Israel's interior minister, echoes Begin's defense, saying: "Christians killed Muslims; how are the Jews responsible?" Novelist Yitzhak Smilanski tells him ironically: We have released famished lions into the arena. They devoured the people; therefore, the lions are the guilty party who devoured the men, aren't they? Who could have foreseen, when we opened the door and let them in that these lions would devour the people?
Writing in Ha'olam Ha'ze, Yeshayahu Leibovitz (professor of Philosophy at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) comments: The massacre was done by us. The Phalangists are our mercenaries, exactly as the Ukrainians and the Croatians and the Slovakians were the mercenaries of Hitler, who organised them as soldiers to do the work for him. Even so have we organized the assassins in Lebanon in order to murder the Palestinians.
In the same publication, Israeli novelist A. B. Yehoshua comments: What can one say? Even if I could believe that IDF soldiers who stood at a distance of 100 meters from the camps did not know what happened, then this would be the same lack of knowledge of the Germans who stood outside Buchenwald and Treblinka and did not know what was happening! We too did not want to know.
22 September 1982 - The Israeli General Command holds a meeting, in which Chief of Staff Eitan sets aside five minutes on the agenda to discuss "events in Sabra and Shatila." No one says a word.
22 September 1982 -In Shatila camp, correspondents find a Palestinian woman pacing back and forth near a mass grave which contains thirteen members of her family, including a 4 month-old baby. Finally she stops, sits on the ground, throws dirt over her head, and asks: "But where do I go now?"
23 September 1982 - A Gallup poll, based on interviews with 1700 people, shows that 60 percent of Israelis considered their government responsible, in one way or another, for the Beirut massacre. (Published in Ha'aretz, September 23, 1982).
25 September 1982 - Public protests against the government escalate in Israel, culminating in a demonstration in Tel Aviv by 400,000 people. (The largest demonstration in Israel's history).
28 September 1982 - PM Begin reverses himself, and accepts the appointment of a limited commission of inquiry. (The Kahan Commission)
16 December 1982 - The UN formally declares the Sabra and Shatila massacres "an act of genocide." As a signatory to both the Geneva Conventions and the Genocide Convention, Israel is legally bound to arrest and try any of its citizens directly or indirectly involved in the slaughter.
8 February 1983 - The Kahan Commission clears Israel of involvement in planning and carrying out the murders at Sabra and Shatila. It concludes however that Ariel Sharon bears "personal responsibility" for the killings, and recommends that he resign as Defence Minister. Sharon is forced to resign, but PM Begin retains him in the government as a Minister without Portfolio, and appoints him to two important Ministerial Committees (on Negotiations with Lebanon, and on Security).
The Commission also recommends that Gen. Yaron, who knew of the killings on the first evening they began but did nothing, should be relieved of field command for three years. Instead, PM Begin promotes him to Head of IDF Manpower and Training.
The Commission makes no recommendations about Chief of Staff Eitan, who allowed the Phalangists extra "mopping-up" time even when he knew a massacre was underway, on the grounds that he is due to retire from the IDF soon anyway.
6 February 2001 - Ariel Sharon is elected Prime Minister of Israel. He will be invited to the White House as a guest of the Bush Administration more often than any other world leader. In contrast, the Adminstration will boycott Palestinian President, Yasser Arafat.
17 June 2001 - British journalist Feargal Keane asks PM Ariel Sharon if he would apologise for the tragedy of Sabra and Shatila. Sharon replies: "Apologize for what?"
19 April 2002 - In the midst of the IDF's invasion and re-occupation of the Palestinian West Bank cities, President Bush describes PM Sharon as "A man of peace".
24 June 2002 - President Bush insists that the Palestinians must choose a new leader, on the grounds that Arafat is "tainted by terror".
Hopefully, anyone who has read this far, through the whole sordid episode of Sabra and Shatila, will have a better appreciation now of why most of the world rolls its eyes when our President lauds the Israeli PM as a "man of peace", but labels the Palestinian leader a "terrorist". Because the other 95% of the world understands that terrorism is not terrorism only when it is committed by Muslims or Arabs, and that the politically-motivated murder of about 3,000 U.S. civilians in New York and Washington DC on September 11, 2001 is a despicable act, but no more despicable than the conveniently-forgotten politically-motivated murder of about 3,000 Palestinian civilians in Sabra and Shatila on 16-18 September 1982.
Journalist Diane Mason writing as ' Lawrence of Cyberia

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 12:57 PM

Jim, the only thing in your first paste job that contadicts israel's version is this.
"And in the hours and days after the massacres, many Palestinian men and boys were rounded up and trucked away, never to be seen again"

It is an obvious lie. ICRC and other NGOs, plus the world press were there and would have seen it.

You claim that the second pasting is from NY Times, but it is not.
It is from something called The Institute of Palestine studies, and is all bollocks.

The next NYTimes bit is genuine but does not contradicts Israel's version.
Extracts,
"It was impossible for a reporter who was not in the camp when the killings took place to determine with any certainty whether the Christian militiamen had acted on orders of the Israeli Army or whether they had gone on a killing spree without the knowledge of the Israeli command.

(In Jerusalem, Israeli officials deplored the slayings and said that Israeli troops had intervened, at one point with force, to prevent the Phalangists from killing more people.)"

"By late afternoon 500 to 600 men were huddled together under several tiers of the stadium awaiting questioning. The men were being provided with food and water, and anyone in need of medical attention was being treated."

"According to residents of Shatila and reporters who visited the main street of the camp Friday (day 2)evening, things were relatively calm in the area. "

"The Christian militiamen also stormed the Palestinian Akka Hospital, from which the International Committee of the Red Cross was trying to remove some of the wounded patients. Reliable Western medical sources who were at the hospital said a Palestinian nurse was repeatedly raped and shot dead by Christian militiamen, and several doctors from the hospital were taken off."
We now know these "reliable sources" were lying!

To be continued.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:00 PM

Never mind the quality feel the width eh Carroll?

Just regurgitating all that crap repeatedly doesn't alter the fact it is all mostly crap and post it again another umpteen times and it will still be crap.

Had you read the Kahan Commission Report you would know the true and verified story about the ID Card and dog tags and Franklin Lamb still didn't see a damned thing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM

Continued.

Your Prof. Boyle piece is just ludicrous claims from someone who was not there.

Your Siegel piece says,
"That, I'm sure, turned out to be the mass grave."

It did not, and she saw no bodies and said nothing about graves in her original statements.

The Kahan Report is Israel's version of events, so what is your point?

Your Lamb piece is more ludicrous inventions from someone not there.

If there is anything significant in the massive Mason piece, please extract it. Was she there?

So you have still produced no evidence that contradicts Israel's version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:17 PM

Nonsense Keith - everything contradicts Israel's/your version of events - the facilitating of the massacre, the burial of the bodies, the allowing the killers to escape - every singly argument is shot down in flames.
You say you are putting forward Israel's case yet here you describe anything put forward by Palestine as "all bollocks" - that sounds fair!!
I think if you pair had cut to the chase at the beginning by saying "everything that points the fingr at Israel is untrue and witness statements are inadmissible", we wouldn't have wasted all this time
I'm not prepared to waste any more - you offer nothing other than denial.
Unless you come up with some evidence between you, this is finished
Now, go wipe that egg off your face.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:17 PM

Yes, Keith, but you utterly FAILED (a trait of yours) to even MENTION the far stronger contribution of Jackie Walker to this tired old non-debate. You must think we're stupid, Keith, but, unfortunately for you and your bigotry, some of us choose to read the link. The Labour-riddled-with-antisemitism con is burnt out. It's now just you and a few bitter anti-Corbynite "friends of Israel" (who are actually no such thing - I'm a damn sight bigger "friend of the Israeli people" than any of 'em, including you, as at least I want to keep the Israeli people out of harm's way - Jesus, have you SEEN Bibi cosying up to Trump over his apartheid wall? 😂😂😂) who keep on trying to resurrect it. Anyone with a quarter of a brain can see that Corbyn is a damn sight more opposed to all forms of discrimination and racism than any of the tawdry scumbags who you either support or keep bloody quiet about. Let's take Farage and Johnson as prime examples, shall we? My advice to you, Keith, is to give it a rest. Permanent would be good, you troll.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:36 PM

jim,
"everything that points the fingr at Israel is untrue and witness statements are inadmissible"

None of those "eye witnesses" appeared until long after the event and it has been easy to show that some of their claims are lies. There were no killings or rapes in hospitals.
You have also posted silly inventions from people who were not there at all.

The Phalange were in the camp from 18.30 on Thursday until 08.30 0n Saturday. Friday was the only whole day.

On Friday Siegel says, "a film crew from Visnews came. They did some filming, then left. Late in the afternoon, representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross appeared; they evacuated a half-dozen critically injured children, whom they placed in other hospitals around the city. They also left us oxygen, blood and other vital and much-needed supplies. Finally, the ambassador of Norway came by."
None reported any signs of massacre, so it is unlikely that Israelis outside the camp could!

On Saturday morning The Phalange came out and ICRC, other NGOs and reporters went in. No secret movement of bodies or burials would be possible.

Steve, the BBC do not think it a non story. There was a lot of it on the Today Programme this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:43 PM

I don't care whether you, the Beeb or the Guardian think it's a story. At least the latter two, who are obliged to actually report stuff that goes on in the world, present a balanced picture, which you signally did not in your post. As ever, extremely dishonest of you. You didn't even MENTION Jackie Walker at all. What she had to say was far more relevant and significant than the bitter rubbish spouted by your much-vaunted racist supporters of the despicable Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

Huffington Post, 9 hours ago.

"Labour Party Conference 2016: 'Anti-Semitic, Racist' Leaflets Distributed Outside Momentum Event
It comes after a series of reports of abuse against Jews at the four-day event."
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-party-conference-2016-anti-semitic-racist-leaflets-distributed-outside-momentum-event_uk_57e8c2eae4b0e81629aa08f4

East London and West Essex Guardian Series-9 hours ago

"A LABOUR MP has described controversial leaflets distributed at this week's party conference as "classic anti-Semitic trope".

The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel".

Like many of his Labour colleagues, MP for Ilford North Wes Streeting has expressed major concern over the leaflets and the "undeniable" issue of anti-Semitism within the party.

Speaking on BBC Radio this morning (September 26), he said: "I wouldn't want to give people the impression that the Labour Party is a hotbed of anti-Semitism, where every event you attend is full of members who have a problem with Jews – this is not the case.

"But this is a problem we have to tackle - because as a party committed to equality we should hold ourselves to higher standards."

The chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group on British Jews added that his newly-re-elected leader Jeremy Corbyn has failed to show "real leadership" on the issue."
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/14764480.Controversial_leaflets_are__classic_anti_Semitic_trope__claims_MP/?commentSort=ol

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:13 PM

The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel".

Well it patently is, and is is not antisemitic to say so. The organised groups of Israel supporters in Labour align themselves with the Israeli Labor Party. They are not my favourite bunches of people but they have every right to be advocates for Israel. In general they do not support the current actions of the extreme right-wing regime in Israel, seeking a more inclusive and less combative way forward. I still don't like them and regard them as wrong-headed, but, to dig up an old cliche, Labour is a broad church. Sorry, Keith, but you are clutching at straws and you are risking the safety and security of the Israeli people by constantly upping the ante. I guess that makes you rabidly antisemitic. Ironic, really, but true.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:02 PM

It is from something called The Institute of Palestine studies

Oh! Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:35 PM

OH! Bubo!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM

Oh! Smeg.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:04 AM

Steve,
In general they do not support the current actions of the extreme right-wing regime in Israel, seeking a more inclusive and less combative way forward.

Of course not. They are lifelong Labour activists! Jews have been an integral part of the Labour Movement from its beginning.
All they are objecting to now is the antisemitism that has very recently become prevalent, along with misogyny and homophobia.

It is silly of you to pretend it is not a significant issue and to call me names and ridicule me for showing that it is. It is a live issue.

Sky News yesterday,

"By Jason Farrell, Senior Political Correspondent
Jewish MPs are outraged by the latest claims of Momentum activists that allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party are exaggerated."

"National Chair of the Jewish Labour Movement, Jeremy Newmark was invited to the Momentum event and challenged the room to produce examples of a "conspiracy to silence legitimate critique of the state of Israel" within the Jewish community.

He claimed that Ms Walker's "use of an anti-Semitic myth" about the slave trade caused "hurt and pain" and led to verbal abuse of a Jewish Labour member.

He argued that there was a serious problem of abuse in the Labour Party"

"Jewish MP Luciana Berger responded to comments from the Momentum meeting, saying: "Those of us at the sharp end of abuse and attacks will be the judge of whether anti-Semitism has been exaggerated or not." "
http://news.sky.com/story/jewish-mps-angry-at-claims-that-anti-semitism-is-exaggerated-10593739

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:34 AM

Guardian yesterday,
"Wes Streeting, the Labour MP who chairs the all-party group on British Jews, said on Monday it was wrong to suggest Labour was a "hotbed of antisemitism", but nonetheless had a problem it needed to tackle.

Streeting told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that a leaflet distributed outside the Momentum event labelled the Jewish Labour Movement "a representative of a foreign power, Israel". He said: "This isn't ambiguous. This is a classic antisemitic trope, at our conference."

Streeting said Corbyn could do more to tackle the issue: "They're not going to listen to people like me. But they do place a lot of faith and stock in Jeremy.

"And as someone who has a track record of tackling racism and discrimination, he has in the past year had a golden opportunity he hasn't yet taken up to show real leadership on this and to help navigate through some of the problems that we face in terms of antisemitism."

Another Labour MP, Luciana Berger, told Today: "There are too many examples of where my Jewish parliamentary colleagues, where my Jewish council colleagues, where Jewish members have been attacked because they are Jewish. We need to stamp it out." "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/26/corbyn-urged-to-show-leadership-in-tackling-antisemitism-within-labour-wes-streeting-labour

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 06:42 AM

Tbose at the "sharp end" of attacks are simply being criticised for blowing up a minor issue that has already been comprehensively addressed out of all proportion for their own nefarious ends, the most significant of which is to stifle any and all criticism of Israeli policies. We can't help it if you dishonestly won't see it, and, as for name-calling, YOU are smearing the good names of hundreds of thousands of Labour members who are one hundred percent intolerant of all forms of antisemitism, the overwhelming majority, so do stop coming the victim, please.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 07:34 AM

Steve, we are not Jews.
If Labour Jews say they are experiencing antisemitism, who are we to call them all liars?
These are lifelong Labour members and activists, and this is a live current issue.
Anyway, name calling and ridicule should have no part in serious discussion and it should shame you that you need to resort to it.

I have smeared no one and resent another false accusation from you.
I have just quoted those involved.
Is the Guardian guilty of smearing?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM

"The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel"."
Jim Carroll

The Jewish Labour Movement (UK), founded in 2004, is the successor organisation to Poale Zion. It is affiliated with the Labour Party in the UK as a Socialist society. It is also affiliated with the World Labour Zionist Movement, a faction within the World Zionist Organization, and has unofficial ties to the Habonim Dror Labour Zionist youth movement.
It views Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.
Its aim is to promote "a secure, progressive, just and successful State of Israel". It is affiliated to the World Labour Zionist Movement. It campaigns against racism generally (especially the British National Party) and seeks to promote a viable peace plan to the Israel-Palestine conflict. With regards to the latter it upholds the rights of the Palestinian people to live at peace with their neighbours on the basis of a Two-state solution.[1]
In February 2016, Louise Ellman MP retired as Chair of the Movement and Hertsmere Labour activist Jeremy Newmark was elected as her successor. Newmark is a former CEO of the UK's Jewish Leadership Council and a previous spokesperson for the previous Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks. Sarah Sackman and Mike Katz were elected as Vice-Chairs of JLM. Sackman stood as Labour's candidate in Finchley and Golders Green in the 2015 General Election. Katz was selected as a Labour Party Candidate for the GLA in the London Assembly election, 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM

JLM attacks critics of Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 09:23 AM

Not all "Labour Jews" (Christ on a bike) are lifelong members and not all supporters of that setup, or of Labour Friends of Israel, are Jews. What they ALL are are ardent opponents of Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong anti-racist and opponent of antisemitism, who are doing their damnedest to undermine him at every opportunity by wilfully exaggerating an issue that has been properly and honestly dealt with, naturally getting the right-wing gutter press, idiots like you and the rest of the pro-Israel lobby's lackeys to keep the fire aflame. The issue has been thoroughly investigated and concluded, though clearly not to your or their satisfaction. What they want, and what YOU want, is all criticism of the actions of Israel, nothing at all to do with true antisemitism, to be suppressed. You and they are part of the pro-Israel lobby, which sucks almost as much in this country as it does in the US for its unprincipled and undemocratic methods. Well tough luck. Bugger off and vote for Theresa May and her scummy bunch of Tory racists instead. But do yourself a favour and STOP LYING about the one party in this country that has made a genuine effort to root out antisemitism, and it certainly had less cause to do so than your bloody Tories, rotten to their racist core.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM

Jim,
It views Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.

Can you substantiate that? And, what is wrong with being a Zionist?
They are just people whose "aim is to promote "a secure, progressive, just and successful State of Israel". Anything wrong with any of that?

Steve,
Not all "Labour Jews" (Christ on a bike) are lifelong members

Of course not!? They would just be Labour voters, now down to about 8% of Jews from 18%
As you know, I was referring to those lifelong Labour members and activates who are reporting serious antisemitism in the Party, many of whom I have quoted.

What they ALL are are ardent opponents of Jeremy Corbyn,

Most are Labour MPs, and 80% of Labour MPs are indeed ardent opponents of JC. It is not a Jewish thing. Just probability.

The issue has been thoroughly investigated and concluded, though clearly not to your or their satisfaction.

It is clearly not concluded. It is very much a live issue. look at all the articles I have linked to just from recent days, and there were many moree. Today it was on BBC World at One, and in the Guardian 7 hours ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/27/jewish-labour-members-unified-party-faiths-views

What they want, and what YOU want, is all criticism of the actions of Israel,

It is not what I want, and I do not believe they want it.
Just another wild assertion that you will never be able to support with any single fact. Why do you do it?
Same reason you call me names. Its all you can do.

You and they are part of the pro-Israel lobby,

You said that you are pro Israel Steve!!

your bloody Tories,

Not my Tories actually. Only when they alone occupy the middle ground.