BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 02:10 PM

You have had the exact details of the massacre and Israel's part of it -

No. You have given a version of events without evidence.
I have given an alternate version of events, which you seem unable to challenge.

Your latest attack on the Arab people is a return to your disgusting "cultural implant claim - we await your claimed experts who told you to say it.

I just quoted two reputable sources with links. You have quoted nothing.

he Israeli army facilitated assisted covered up the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees -

Do not just repeat your ludicrous claims. Offer some evidence!

they provided and transport for the killers and allowed them access into the camp, standing by and doing nothing for three days and nights

Two nights. Yes. Israel acknowledges that. On the third day they ordered the Phalangists out, ending the massacre.

The army provided illumination for three nights .

Two nights. Were flares used on the second night? I have not seen the evidence for that.

The army provided illumination for three nights so the massacre could continue, uninterrupted by darkness.

You do not need flares to murder people in their homes. They only illuminate outside anyway.

DOver three days, unarmed men, women and children were slaughtered, the women were raped and then had their throats cut by their killers - those who were pregnant were disemboweled and their unborn children were ripped from their wombs.

Yes. Israel has never denied it. Nor has anyone here, so what is your point?

provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, and eventually built a sports stadium over the mass graves so the exact number of deaths could never be calculated.


Do not just repeat your ludicrous claims. Offer some evidence!

Israel's own enquiry declared Arial Defence Minister Arial Sharon personally responsible for the massacre;

Indirectly responsible yes. No-one here has denied it, so what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 02:33 PM

"... and allowed them access into the camp, standing by and doing nothing for three days and nights"

"Two nights. Yes. Israel acknowledges that. On the third day they ordered the Phalangists out, ending the massacre."

And with this exchange, Keith, you have demolished every one of your own sick arguments. The Israelis ordered the phalangists out. Which means that the Israelis were in charge all along. We knew you'd see the light eventually. You lose!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 03:53 PM

"We knew you'd see the light eventually. "
Plwease don's top him Steve - his lying inhumanity is a perfect example of the sub-human pro Israeli Regimites who pollute this planet with their denials of massacres and human rights abuses.
"The Israeli Army surrounded Sabra and Shatila and stationed troops at the exits of the area to prevent camp residents from leaving and, at the Phalangists' request,[11] fired illuminating flares at night."

Ellen Seigal - Jewish Eye-witness to the massacre - a truly "self-hating Jew"

An open letter to the survivors of the Sabra and Shatila massacre
Ellen Siegel International Campaign for Justice for the Victims of Sabra and Shatila 29 June 2003
Ellen Siegel is a registered nurse. She volunteered her expertise and services at the Gaza Hospital in Sabra Camp in Beirut in 1982, and was there during the massacre. She testified as a witness befoe the Kahan Commission of Inquiry in Jerusalem in late 1982. Ms. Siegel is the Vice-Chair of the Medical Committee of American Near East Refugee Aid, a member of the Middle East Committee of the Peace Commission of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, and active in the Jewish peace movement. She currently works as a community mental health nurse for a non-profit organization. She wrote the following letter to her friends and fellow massacre survivors and witnesses in Beirut in the wake of Belgium's decision to weaken its universal jurisdiction (anti-atrocity) legislation in response to pressure from the US Government.

July 29, 2003
My dear friends,
I met many of you last September, on the 20th anniversary of the massacre at Sabra and Shatila. I had not been back to Beirut, or to the camps, or to Gaza Hospital, where I had worked as a nurse, since the summer of 1982.
I wanted to return, to re-trace my steps. I wanted to remember, to be there beside you, to stand in solidarity with you. Most of all, I wanted to honor and pay tribute to you and your loved ones.
I would like to share my experience with you.
My first day, at sunrise, I headed for the camps. I was dropped off at what had been the entrance to the hospital, the very spot where we nurses and doctors were told to assemble twenty years ago by the Phalangist militia. I was met and accompanied by a Palestinian woman familiar with the camps.
What had once been a place where Palestinians and Lebanese living in the camps came to have their babies, went to have operations performed, where clinics once served the medical needs of the camp inhabitants and where a huge Red Cross banner once hung, had now become an almost uninhabitable place for displaced persons.
Now, the entrance is dark, foul smelling, rat infested, and piled with trash. You need matches or a flashlight to find the steps leading to the stairway and to light the stairwell. Palestinian, Lebanese, and possibly other Arab nationals squat in this building. The well they use for water had recently been destroyed. Wires hung from ceilings and walls, hooking up electrical power. Conditions are extremely unhealthy.
I walked up to the ninth floor and looked out. I could see the entire camp; the streets, the alleyways, and the top of what had been the Israeli Forward Command Post. The last time I looked out from this spot two decades earlier, it had been at night. What I saw then were flares being shot into the air, which were used to illuminate areas of the camp. After seeing this, twenty years later, with my naked eye, there was no doubt in my mind that the Israeli Defence Forces officials and soldiers, using sophisticated binoculars, could clearly see what was happening in those camps.
I then proceeded down Sabra Street. It is much denser, more crowded than it was in 1982. I was taken to shelters were people tried to hide during those terrible days, I saw the walls that had bullet holes where mass executions occurred. The complexity of the winding alleyways and warrens in these camps makes carrying out an operation such as the massacre very difficult. It could not have happened haphazardly. Planning and coordination had to occur.
The mass grave, at the end of the main street, was being spruced up for the anniversary. A brick wall now covers the spot where a firing squad lined up the health care workers. I walked past the Kuwaiti Embassy. There is now a statue and a roundabout before you come to what had been an abandoned UN building used for interrogating us. A brick wall now covers the spot. The building used by the Israelis as their Command Post remains. Standing at that spot, you overlook the camps.
I returned to visit with you several times. I met with survivors and families of martyrs. I attended the commemoration march and walked hand in hand with you. I attended the ceremony at the gravesite. I brought roses, together we placed them on the soil. I silently recited Kaddish, the Hebrew prayer for the dead. My last visit to the grave was a few days after the formal ceremony. It was then that I saw the silent grieving of loved ones. I realized, sadly, that yet another generation of Palestinian refugees was growing up in those deplorable camps.
The Palestinian women in these camps are extraordinary. Through no fault of your own you have spent most of your adult life moving from one squalid camp to another. You once thrived in villages in mainly northern Palestine. You farmed, harvested crops, and raised livestock. You were self-supporting. Throughout this incredible ordeal of becoming a refugee you have remained strong and proud. You have not lost your dignity. I have only the greatest respect for you.
You are such patient people. You wait to return to your homeland, you wait for justice. Every once in a while there is a ray of hope, like when Belgium passed an anti-atrocity law. You thought that Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron and others responsible for that massacre would be tried as war criminals. Some of you traveled to Belgium, many of you gave detailed accounts of those dark days twenty years ago. You pulled out large framed and yellowing photos of your loved ones - you shared memories. For a while it seemed that there would be a hearing. At last, plaintiffs/survivors would be able to tell their story before an official court. But, it seems, this is not meant to be. Due to enormous pressure on the government of Belgium, mainly from Israel and the US, justice will be eluded once again.
This massacre could not happened without Israel's active participation under the command of Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron, and others. Israel prevented terrified residents from leaving, they supplied the flares to the Phalange in order to light up neighborhoods so they could find their victims, they lent a bulldozer to help bury bodies, they were in communication with the murderers, and they could see what was going on in the camps. The Israeli Commission of Inquiry found that Sharon bore indirect responsibility - a decision questioned by many outside of Israel's establishment. The Phalange militia carried out the actual slaughter of men, women, and children. In seeking justice, we must not ignore this fact.
The Palestinians cannot get a fair hearing in Israel. The Israeli government just announced that they were not responsible for Rachel Corrie's death. It seems the driver of a bulldozer did not see her standing there waving her arms. Rachel Corrie, a US citizen, did not get a fair hearing.
Your friends from around the world will once again try to help you. We will write letters, make phone calls, send e-mails, and write articles, op ed pieces and the like. As you sit and wait, remember that your cause is heard. I do not know how many more generations you will have to wait. Do not despair. We will continue to seek justice on your behalf.
Our thoughts are with you.
Ellen Siegel, RN
Washington, DC
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 04:36 PM

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff. Defense Minister Ariel Sharon resigned.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed-the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.

Jewish Virtual Library

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 08:49 PM

So bobad, a load of copy 'n' paste from a biased source and not a word from you. Mind you, I suppose we should be grateful for that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 03:14 AM

Jewish Virtual Library
"The Jewish Virtual Library (JVL) is an online encyclopedia published by the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), one of whose "principal objectives is to enhance Israel's image by publicizing novel Israeli approaches to problems Wiki
A stated aim of American Israili Cooperative Enterprise
"stop BDS[edit]
Launched in 2010, the "Stop BDS project" is an online resource for students on campus and others who wish to fight the anti-Israel Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement in their communities.[14]"

AICE Executive Director is foreign policy analyst Mitchell G. Bard,
Before working for the AIPAC, he was a polling analyst for the George (H.W.) Bush for President Survey Research Group during the 1988 presidential election.
In 2012, Bard attended the Israeli Presidential Conference.[5] In 2013, he was placed on the Algemeiner's list of the Top 100 People Positively Influencing Jewish Life for his work.[6]

Now whose word should we take on the massacre - an extremist right wing orgnisation dedicated to defending the Israeli regime or a Jewish nurse who was an eyewitness to the massacre, who treated the survivors at the refugee camp while the killers were still on site, who testified at the Kahan enquiry to seeing the bulldozers on site and who has dedicated her life to telling the world what happened?
Let me think!!!!
The Israeli regime has declared war on Jewish people who criticise their actions, describing them as "self-hating Jews" and has stated that all criticism is Antisemitic
Their policy is now openly Antisemitic - by definition.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 03:27 AM

"The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy"
Selection from "Top 10 Kissinger Quotes"
1. Soviet Jews: "The emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union is not an objective of American foreign policy. And if they put Jews into gas chambers in the Soviet Union, it is not an American concern. Maybe a humanitarian concern."
7. Assassination: "It is an act of insanity and national humiliation to have a law prohibiting the President from ordering assassination." (Statement at a National Security Council meeting, 1975)
9. Illegality-Unconstitutionality: "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." (from March 10, 1975 meeting with Turkish foreign minister Melih Esenbel in Ankara, Turkey)
A good friend of the Israeli regime, it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 03:59 AM

Jim,
his lying inhumanity

You keep accusing me of lying but you have yet to identify a single one.
Put up or shut up.

You have also failed to substantiate any of your ludicrous claims, or offered any evidence to challenge the Israeli version of events.

You keep on about the flares.
You do not need flares to murder people in a crowded camp, so they are irrelevant to the issue.
Most were killed in their homes where the light of flares would not penetrate anyway. Or, it could have been done in daylight.
Either way, the flares are irrelevant.

You do need flares to identify enemy positions and fighters in the dark, so the flares support Israel's version of events, not yours.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM

"You keep accusing me of lying but you have yet to identify a single one."
You lie consistently Keith
In the face of masses of evidence you have been given, eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries, you say no evidence of Israel's culpability in the massacre has been produced
That is a blatant lie.
You have been given a short systemic list of the events of Israel's part in the massacre - you claim to have answered them all - you have answered none
That is a blatant lie.
You distort, you deny facts, you contradict witness statements, you misrepresent facts, you make stupid statements like your "decent nations not condemning..." all to defend mass murder - that is dishonesty to a viral extent.
Typical example.
"You do not need flares to murder people in a crowded camp,"
Sabra Shatila was totally without public lighting - the victims were dragged from their tiny dwellings, the wonen were raped and disemboweled in the lanes, the men were butchered - all in total darkness????
You have to be joking.
That is dishonesty
Where evidence if incontrovertible, you ignore it - that is dishonest.
"Most were killed in their homes"
Do you have any evidence of this
If you don't you are making it up.
"You do need flares to identify enemy positions and fighters in the dark"
No fighters were found and a tiny number of weapons were recovered.
That is a lie.
Your lies are in order to defend an unspeakable massacre of unarmed civilians
That is inhuman.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 06:33 AM

"You have also failed to substantiate any of your ludicrous claims, or offered any evidence to challenge the Israeli version of events."
That is a total and typical lie
You have been inundated by documented evidence
It takes a certain level of stupidity to lie about something that is within reach without having to change threads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 07:13 AM

You lie consistently Keith

Then it should be easy for to to produce an example.
Let's see the very worst you can come up with.
Or, are you the liar here?

eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries,

No inquiry has found Israel directly responsible, so there is a lie from you straight away.

Eye witness accounts implicating Israelis did not appear for a suspiciously long time, and we know that lying eye witnesses can always be found against Israel.

Only one journalist entered the camp in the immediate aftermath, and he found nothing to implicate Israelis.

Sabra Shatila was totally without public lighting - the victims were dragged from their tiny dwellings, the wonen were raped and disemboweled in the lanes, the men were butchered - all in total darkness????

Why not? Or you could use a torch, or do it in daylight.
There were no flares for all those other massacres.

"Most were killed in their homes"
Do you have any evidence of this

Robert Fiske, "But there were women lying in houses with..."

No fighters were found and a tiny number of weapons were recovered.

Firing was coming out of the camp before Phalange went in.
Fiske filmed some fighters when he went in.

You have been inundated by documented evidence

Remind me of some you have provided because I can think of none!

It takes a certain level of stupidity to lie about something that is within reach without having to change threads

Yes it does Jim. It should be very easy for you to find some of this "documented evidence" if you are not lying again.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM

"Then it should be easy for to to produce an example."
Do you see what I mean - I've just produced a whole bundle of them and you dontinue to deny I have
"In the face of masses of evidence you have been given, eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries, you say no evidence of Israel's culpability in the massacre has been produced
That is a blatant lie."
"You have been given a short systemic list of the events of Israel's part in the massacre - you claim to have answered them all - you have answered none
That is a blatant lie."
"You distort, you deny facts, you contradict witness statements, "
"No inquiry has found Israel directly responsible, "
The McBride Commission found them "probably" responsible.
Apart from The Kahan enquiry, no independent group has ever absolved them - human rights groups have declared them wholly responsible.
"Why not? Or you could use a torch, ."
So you rape a woman, cut her throat and disembowel her CARRYING A ***** torch
You catch an adult and shoot him or hack him to death carrying a torch.
You carry out the many executions that too place with a torch in one hand anfd a gun in the other - are you completely insane?
"or do it in daylight"
How stupid can you get?
The illumination was provided so the slaughter could continue day and night.
"Remind me of some you have provided because I can think of none!"
Than you are either lying or illiterate
You have just been given Ellen Siegal's account of the massacre - is it not evidence because she wasn't there, or maybe because she was "a self-hating Jew"
You are lying and you are lying about lying - all in consecutive postings.
Please keep this up Keith - it's a perfect example of a Pro-Israeli atrocity denier.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 10:16 AM

I've just produced a whole bundle of them and you dontinue to deny I have

You produced only one direct quote which was no lie. ( "decent nations not condemning...")
The rest was all your inaccurate interpretations of what you claim I said but did not.
If I am such a prolific liar, why can you find no quotes?

you claim to have answered them all - you have answered none

Sorry, I thought I had.
What still needs answering?

The McBride Commission found them "probably" responsible.
"Probably" is rather inconclusive, but I do not remember them using that word. Quote please.
I recall they could only say, "directly or indirectly" responsible and Israel accepts indirect responsibility.

no independent group has ever absolved them

Of course not. That is not what they do.

- human rights groups have declared them wholly responsible

How would they know what happened?
Members of the ICRC were in the hospital on day 2, and they moved in on the morning of day 3. They do not implicate Israel in the massacre.

So you rape a woman, cut her throat and disembowel her CARRYING A ***** torch
You catch an adult and shoot him or hack him to death carrying a torch.

If it actually happened at night yes. Fighters carry torches at night and such people as these would be in roaming gangs, not individuals.
Flares do not work indoors anyway, and all those other massacres were achieved without them.

"Remind me of some you have provided because I can think of none!"
Than you are either lying or illiterate

I am neither. Why can you not find anything Jim?

You have just been given Ellen Siegal's account of the massacre - is it not evidence because she wasn't there, or maybe because she was "a self-hating Jew"

I have it in front of me. It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre. It is entirely consistent with their version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 11:54 AM

If Ellen Seigal's eye witness statement isn't "evidence" - what is it.
If Robert Fisk's account of the massacre based on his own researches isn't "evidence" what is it.
If the report of the McBride enquiry isn't evidence - what is it?
You said I had not produced evidence - I produced these and much much more
You lied.
You have been given an account of the massacre accepted by all other than the Israeli regime and its supporters - those accounts include people who were there - several Jews included.
You continue to make pathetic claims about how the massacre was carried out and why illumination was necessary for it to continue over three nights.
You have not produced one single account which contradicts those claims other than those made by the Israeli perpetrators and those directly imlpicated as active supporters. - not one - not even from your "decent, democratic nations.
It is all your own work.
"I have it in front of me. It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre"
This massacre could not happened without Israel's active participation under the command of Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron, and others. Israel prevented terrified residents from leaving, they supplied the flares to the Phalange in order to light up neighborhoods so they could find their victims, they lent a bulldozer to help bury bodies, they were in communication with the murderers, and they could see what was going on in the camps.
Ellen Seigal
You lied
" there was no doubt in my mind that the Israeli Defence Forces officials and soldiers, using sophisticated binoculars, could clearly see what was happening in those camps.
Ellen Seigal
You lied
The Palestinians cannot get a fair hearing in Israel.
You lied
You have not only lied consistently but you have lied stupidly
All these quotes from Ellen Seigal were posted yesterday, each one points the finger directly at Israel, yet you claim "It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre"
Are you totally insane - it would appear so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 12:34 PM

If Ellen Seigal's eye witness statement isn't "evidence" - what is it.

It is evidence. I have it in front of me and it is entirely consistent with Israel's version of events.

If Robert Fisk's account of the massacre based on his own researches isn't "evidence" what is it.

When he entered the camp he saw nothing to implicate Israel. By his "researches" you mean talking to Palestinians months later, who like the ones from Jenin say what they are told to say.

If the report of the McBride enquiry isn't evidence - what is it?
It is evidence, but it failed to find Israel directly responsible.

You lied.

Same old mantra Jim, but you can not find a single quote to justify it, even though I keep requesting one.

You have been given an account of the massacre accepted by all other than the Israeli regime and its supporters

.... and all liberal democracies. "Accepted by all" enemies of Israel!

You continue to make pathetic claims about how the massacre was carried out and why illumination was necessary for it to continue over three nights.

TWO NIGHTS!! Were there flares on the second night? There was no third night. Look it up Jim.
Flares are needed for military operations but are quite superfluous for random murder in a crowded camp.

You have not produced one single account which contradicts those claims

Yes I have. Siegel and Fiske. I quoted both. You have produced nothing until now.

other than those made by the Israeli perpetrators

I have quoted no Israelis. You lie.

This massacre could not happened without Israel's active participation under the command of Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron, and others. Israel prevented terrified residents from leaving, they supplied the flares to the Phalange in order to light up neighborhoods so they could find their victims, they lent a bulldozer to help bury bodies, they were in communication with the murderers, and they could see what was going on in the camps.
Ellen Seigal

That is her opinion but nothing she saw or said in her testimony supports that view.

" there was no doubt in my mind that the Israeli Defence Forces officials and soldiers, using sophisticated binoculars, could clearly see what was happening in those camps.
Ellen Seigal

Perhaps she thinks sophisticated binoculars can see through walls.
She was unable to see anything even from the roof of the hospital deep within the camp.

you claim "It does not implicate Israelis in the massacre"

Her testimony which she gave to the Kahan Commission, and her journal from the time, records nothing to implicate Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 01:27 PM

"It is evidence."#Then you lied whan yo claimed I had produced no evidence.
"it is entirely consistent with Israel's version of events. "
Then Israel have admitted supplying illumination so the killing could continue day and night
You lied
The massacre could not have happened without Israel's co-operation
You lied.
Israel was fully aware of what was going on and were in contact with the murderers
You lied
Israel supplied bulldozers to bury the bodies
You lied
"Firing was coming out of the camp before Phalange went in."
No reports ever suggested this
You lied
Your whole defence is a pack of lies, inventions and distortions.
You have been given a list of Israel's providing the transport
Providing the weapons
opening the gates
providing illumination to assist the killing
turning back victims attempting to escape the massacre
asisting to bury the bodies
providing transport to allow the killers to escape
Building a new stadium over the mass graves so the death toll would never be known
Appointing the man they found culpable of mass murder Prime minister
You have feebly attempted to excuse the illumination with nonsensical excuses - apart from that, you have ignored every other point
You claimed to have answered them all
You lied
I think we're finished here - don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 02:21 PM

"In the face of masses of evidence you have been given, eye witness accounts, press reports, inquiries, you say no evidence of Israel's culpability in the massacre has been produced"

1: Carroll you wouldn't recognise what actually does fall into what is acceptable as "Evidence" if it jumped up and bit you.

2: Judging by what she herself has written your Jewish "eye witness" actually saw very little, much of what she does claim would be classified as hearsay and surmise - not admissible as "evidence".

3: Press reports are notoriously inaccurate, biased and unreliable - not evidence.

4: Inquiries? Kahan Commission stated that Israel was indirectly responsible, MacBride Inquiry stated that Israel was Probably" indirectly responsible - probably infers a fair degree of what in an English Court of law would constitute "Reasonable Doubt" in any criminal action. So here we have the Israeli Inquiry into the events at Sabra-Shatila more damning than the International Inquiry. There have been no thorough investigations undertaken into the events at Sabra-Shatila, the Lebanese put a cap on them and forbade any investigations. Your figure of 3,500 dead is an unverified guestimate at best, certainly not the authenticated, verified and documented figure that you originally put forward. Your sports stadium with it's "secret" mass grave has been sitting there for anybody to examine for decades - tell us why it has not been opened and examined?

5: Keith A is perfectly correct no cast iron solid evidence of Israeli involvement has ever been produced and no rock solid irrefutable evidence has ever been offered up that shows them to be directly responsible for what happened. The UN wanted the IDF out of Beirut and out of South Lebanon, to comply with this the IDF therefore had to hand over to someone, the largest faction to had over to were the coalition of militias known as the "Lebanese Forces". When Arafat scuttled out of the Lebanon he was supposed to have taken ALL of his "fighters" with him - he didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 02:31 PM

Then Israel have admitted supplying illumination
Yes.
so the killing could continue day and night
No.

The massacre could not have happened without Israel's co-operation

What co-operation?

Israel was fully aware of what was going on and were in contact with the murderers

No evidence for that.

Israel supplied bulldozers to bury the bodies

No evidence for that.

"Firing was coming out of the camp before Phalange went in."
No reports ever suggested this

Israeli reports did.

There is no evidence for any of the rest of your claims either.

Appointing the man they found culpable of mass murder Prime minister

No-Israeli was found "culpable of mass murder."

asisting to bury the bodies

The ICRC and families did that. Israelis played no part.

Building a new stadium over the mass graves so the death toll would never be known

No evidence. Laughable.

I think we're finished here - don't you?

You are!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 05:42 PM

"She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact" - Jim Carroll

Now I asked a pal of mine who operates heavy plant machinery about this and his answer prompts me to ask you yet another question that you will no doubt ignore Jim:

Explain to us all how you would use a bulldozer to excavate a mass grave?

His take on the problem was as follows:

The area you would require would be massive.

You could only do it by "scuffing" the earth and that would take an eternity to transition into and out of the hole until you reach your target depth.

You would have to keep stopping and starting to clear and reposition the spoil heap. You would have to reposition all the spoil to fill in any hole.

That he said would be difficult enough in open fields - in a built up area in the centre of a city? Impossible.

That Jim is why when carrying out earthworks professional construction engineers use "Excavators" for digging holes NOT bulldozers - for a mass grave Jim you do need a hole don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 05:50 PM

Oh by the way Jom all that being taken as read how do you keep it all secret? The answer is of course you couldn't.

Which leads to far greater credence being placed on the 17 or so accounts of what happened that put the death toll at something in the order of 1,200 to 1,300 and not the 3,500 that you claim, horrendous enough but not one single person killed by anyone from the IDF - yet they are the people that you blame. Care to tell us why Jom? Anything to do with your bias and your bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 06:17 PM

No-one's posted to this deadly thread for over 24 hours, Woodcock. Why the hell are you bothering? No, really?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 07:21 PM

Trying, or hoping to "bury" the evidence Shaw?

Taking some of the idiotic claims that you and your pals have tried to float - not really surprised - your "tell" is showing again - am I getting to you? Too many sensible questions that you and your pals cannot answer? I mean all those about secret mass graves under sports stadiums that could have been excavated about a hundred times over the past decade to totally discredit Israel but yet haven't - wonder why? Could the reason possibly be that everything that Jim is wittering on about is a complete and utter load of SH 1 T {Wouldn't be the first time would it?}

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 07:29 PM

Labour MP Complains Of Bullying After Corbyn's Team Names 'Abusive' MPs

"An unnamed Labour MP has complained to the chief whip about bullying after Jeremy Corbyn's team issued a roll call of MPs it claims have abused the leader and his allies.

Earlier on Wednesday, the list was issued of 13 MPs that the leader's office accused of being abusive.

It included vocal backbencher Jess Phillips for telling Corbyn's ally Diane Abbott to "fuck off", MP John Woodcock for dismissing the party leader as a "fucking disaster" and former Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt for describing Labour as "in the shit".

Get where I'm coming from Shaw??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 08:02 PM

What I get is that you can't see when a thread has died the bloody death. I mean, no-one bothering with it for over 24 hours. There it was, languishing at the very bottom of the thread list, poised to drop out of sight, but you just couldn't resist it, could you. It isn't even a sleeping dog. It's a dead dog. Let it lie. Or a dead horse, so flog it not. Or a dead donkey, so drop it. It's boring, Woodcock. Boring. I no longer have an arse because this thread has bored it off me. Move on, old boy, move on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:54 AM

"Now I asked a pal of mine who operates heavy plant machinery about this and his answer prompts me to ask you yet another question that you will no doubt ignore Jom:"
Oh no - not more unsubstatiated crap
Ho many pints had you both had?
So we scrap the documented eye witness evidence on the word of two piss-artists at closing time dahn the local?
Don't think so - do you.
Might as well have dug up my old man and asked him - he drove a bulldozer all his life - he even appempted to teach me to drive one when I was a youngster!!
For crying out loud - if you have any evidence which contradicts the official, researched (or witnessed) accounts, give it.
'Couldn't have happened because we don't know ho many died' or "my mate told me...." doesn't hack it.
Your arguments have been dead in the water for decades - it happened as it is documented to have happened - end of story.
It wasn't unique - it was one of many atrocities carried out by Israel, in fact it was the most blatant and the largest.
And no - it doesn't matter that others were - and ar guilty of carrying out the same.
It was a crime against humanity facilitated and participated in by a terrorist state against a mass of unarmed civilian men, women and children The crime went unpunished and the leading perpetrator was appointed Prime Minister, tuning that crime from a military one into one perpetrated, condoned by the state, which attempted to cover it up.
All your blustering bullshit and your arrogant goosestepping doesn't alter that one iota - but it does serve to expose you and the silly little caricature of a man that you are.
I have no problem recognising "evidence", which it why I am aware that you have never produced any, you have refused to do so, it seems, on principle.
The few times you have attempted to do so, your "evidence" has crumbled to dust.
Go and ask your mates dahn the pub what they think of that - but best wait to around closing time.
Where is your documented evidence for any of this "made-up-shit of yours?
"Now I asked a pal of mine ".........
Has to be the best yet - really has made my day - better even than ' "we don't kno how many were killed'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 04:39 AM

Jim,
contradicts the official, researched (or witnessed) accounts,

There are no such " official, researched accounts" to contradict (you have found none!), and we know that false eye witnesses can be produced to say whatever they are told.

"made-up-shit
The response to that accusation should be to substantiate the shit, but you can't.

Steve, "whither the Labour Party" is very much a live issue today.
You and Jim have tried to stifle that discussion by dredging up incidents in Lebanon 34 years ago!

On Question Time with the 2 leadership contenders, Smith spoke of the "problem" of antisemitism in the Party, and claimed that most Jewish members did not regard Chakrabarti's report as adequate, and it had not treated the issue seriously.
Corbyn said he was aware of suspensions before he became leader, and had received reports of antisemitic statements and behaviour at Party events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 05:45 AM

The thread title is "(UK)Whither the Labour Party" Shaw and we haven't even got onto Vaz yet.

Come on Jim tell us all what you have to do to dig a Mass Grave in an urban environment with a Bulldozer - a piece of machinery that has been specifically designed to push and level NOT dig.

You are the complete and utter prat who is claiming not only that IT WAS done BUT DONE IN SECRET with the world and it's dog looking on. Yet for some reason you cannot tell us how it was done - not very good on practicalities or detail are you Carroll? Your bigotry and biased perspective overcomes reason and common sense and allows you to swallow hook-line-and-sinker any anti-Israeli line fed to you. Don't you ever question any of it, or are you just gullible?

Your eye-witness as I have stated actually witnessed very little happening.

And Shaw nobody had posted to the thread because of the questions being asked and points being raised that cast doubt on you and your pals take on things.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 06:24 AM

Piss of Keith
You have produced nothing other than denials - nothing
Your pathetic claim of "decent nations" is imbecilic.
Aren't the perpetrators of the Tianamen Square massacre involved in building Britain a nuclear power station?
Didn't the British Prime Minister pay his respects to the late patriarch of Saudi Arabia while a protester was being administered 1,000 lashes for speaking his mind?
Don't we sell weapons to human rights monsters?
What ****** planet do you live on.?
Hasn't it occurred to your equally moronic mate that if his dahn the pub mate's claim had any basis, Israel would have put it forward decades ago?
Instead - the claim comes from your little two- man(sort of) pro-Israeli propaganda Roneo duplicator machine.
Taking your own argument to its logical conclusion - if Israel is as innocent as you claim, the "decent democratic" world would be up on its feet in protest at the massive injustice being done to Gallant Little Israel by accusing them of these crimes.
Isnstead THEY ARE SILENT JUST AS THEY ARE DOING DEALS WITH THE TIANAMEN SQUARE PERPETRATORS, OR ATTENDING THE FUNERALS OF DESPOTS - OR SELLING ARMS TO MONSTERS
Britain has as shaky a reputation on human rights as has America - two massacres in the 20th century - both on a (Bloody) Sunday.
We locked up six innocent men for seventeen years, knowing they were innocent.
Thatcher described the mass murder, torture and rape of young Chilean protesters as "democracy" and described those who attempted to bring the perpetrator to justice as "running a police state".
It will ve interesting to see the outcome of the now considered enquiry into Orgreave (no question of which side you will be on there)
Your defence of mass murder is a disgrace and it is all your own work
The pair of you are putting up arguments in defence of Israel that they have not even thought of.
You have been given a list of what Israel did to 3,500 unarmed refugees - all backed up by researched and fully accepted facts
You refuse to respond to them but instead, offer your own (nobody else's) denial of the whole affair
What kind of person does that??
You want to disprove those facts - produce verified evidence - nobody denies them other than you, in many cases, not even the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 07:25 AM

You have produced nothing other than denials

You have produced nothing but ludicrous accusations.

Your pathetic claim of "decent nations" is imbecilic.

My claim that no decent democracy holds Israel responsible for that massacre is a straight fact that you deny but can produce no example of.

Teribus' claim had any basis, Israel would have put it forward decades ago?

They did. They held an enquiry. Nurse Siegel and other staff from the hospital testified at it and ICRC was part of it. (ICRC did the burials.)

the "decent democratic" world would be up on its feet in protest at the massive injustice being done to Gallant Little Israel by accusing them of these crimes.

No, because no-one takes such ludicrous propaganda seriously, except people like you.

You have been given a list of what Israel did to 3,500 unarmed refugees - all backed up by researched and fully accepted facts

No we have not. Just ludicrous unsubstantiated propaganda.

You refuse to respond to them

Completely untrue. My recent posts have been uncharacteristically long because I have included point by point rebuttals of all your claims.

If you think I have missed one, just let me know. I have asked you to do that so many times but you have never been able to think of one!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 08:20 AM

"You are the complete and utter prat
And you are an atrocity denying idiot.
The use of bulldozers were reported on by witnesses
The fact that they were used is not disputed
You are making statements based on an (apparently) drunken conversation dahn the pub - where is your evidence?
Are you and your drinking buddy going to make similar denials about
bulldozers being used to dig mass graves in former Yugoslavia, or at Auschwits, or after the Haj disaster in Mecca (photographed)
How much evidence are you going to continue to deny and when are you going to supply some of your own?
Jim Carroll

Report of the Kahan commission enquiry Lewiston Daily Sun Nov 2nd 1982
The commission members questioned them closely on evidence that could have implied Israeli Involvement
The witnesses said they saw as many as 10 bulldozers working in the Chatilla camp as they were led out of the area Saturday morning Sept. 18. Israeli officers acknowledged allowing entry of only one bulldozer, for clearing rubble.
It was later learned that the bulldozers were being used to hide evidence of the massacre and dig mass graves.
Ms. Siegel said she saw three bulldozers, each marked with a single Hebrew letter, which could have been an Israeli army Insignia.

Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.

In the 2005 Swiss-French-German-Lebanese co-produced documentary Massaker six former Lebanese Forces soldiers who participated personally in the massacre stated there was direct Israeli participation. One of them said that he saw Israeli soldiers driving bulldozers into inhabited houses inside the camp. Another said that Israeli soldiers provided the Lebanese Forces soldiers with material to dispose of the corpses lying around in the streets.
Benny Morris is Israel's leading official historian on Israeli conflict

Eye witness account given to the BBC by a British witness:
1982: Sabra and Shatila - after the atrocity
Deborah Thornton-Jackson was married to a Lebanese businessman. They lived in Beirut with their young family during the 1970s and 1980s.
In September 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon, and a Christian Lebanese militia massacred hundreds of Palestinians living in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
After the atrocity, Deborah drove to a hospital in Gaza to help tend to the wounded and dying.
I spent 20 years in the Lebanon - first going out there in 1969 as an air stewardess. I later married a Christian Lebanese named Elie.
We lived in Beirut. On and off I would leave when the situation got bad, when it got too hot to handle. I would have to get the girls out, our children, back to safety.
Some of the things I experienced were traumatic. I find it very hard sometimes to recount the shocking events that took place and one in particular - the Israeli invasion in 1982. I've buried an awful lot.
The night that the Israelis actually came in and surrounded the camps, we were at our villa in East Beirut, on the Christian side.
Aircraft came over periodically during the day flying low and showing their presence with a few bombs which created a lot of smoke.
Then we heard that the Phalangists had actually gone into the camps and that the Israelis had more or less surrounded them.
There were flares in the sky which we could see that lit up the surrounding area. We knew what they were doing.
I just felt I had to go and help these people. I had a tremendous sympathy for the Palestinian people at that time, which my husband could never understand.
Children, women, animals, anything that moved - they had massacred
I had a friend who was a Palestinian doctor. He worked at Gaza Hospital which is in between the camps of Sabra and Shatila.
On the Saturday (18 September) I got in my little Renault 5 and I went own to downtown Beirut as I had known it.
I went to Gaza Hospital to see Khalid the doctor friend of mine, and see if they needed any help.
The scenes at Gaza Hospital were just horrendous. It was panic, absolute panic, there were people running everywhere.
I said: "Look I have a training of first aid, that's all. If I can help I would love to."
They said anybody was welcome that could tie a bandage or put a plaster on.
What will always stick in my memory is of a little boy that had come from the camps, and his little body had no limbs.
I can remember just holding him, holding his little body close. He was covered with blood and the life was running out of him. He was crying for his mother.
The next day, I went back. I think Elie was terribly angry with me for doing this. His opinion was to rid Beirut of the "rubbish", as he would put it, of the Palestinian people. We would have endless arguments about this.
I went into the camps with the Red Cross but too late. Nobody had been allowed in.
Bulldozers had gone in to bury bodies. They had also bulldozed buildings with people still inside, families still watching television, or having dinner.
They bulldozed these people. They massacred these people. I saw bodies, piles of bodies, heaped up, mutilated, and believe me they hadn't been shot.
It was like a scene from what I would have imagined happened in World War Two to the Jews. They had been executed.
Children, women, animals, anything that moved - they had massacred.
The Phalangists that I spoke to afterwards - they enjoyed doing what they had done.
What could I say? Were they going to listen to me? I said to them: "How can you justify what you've done?"
It was horror in there, it was horror. The stench, the massacre. They are war crimes.
But I shall certainly never forget. Of all the horrors and atrocities, and of the many things that have happened to me when I was in Beirut, nothing can come close to what I witnessed in these camps. Nothing.

Eye witness account by a woman on the scene
".. they had put the men on one side and the women on the other… The armed men ordered us to walk in front, and the men behind. We walked like this until we got to the communal grave. There, the bulldozer started digging. Among us was a man who was wearing a white nurse's shirt; they called him and filled him with bullets in front of everyone. The women started screaming. The Israelis posted in front of the Kuwaiti embassy and in front of the Rihab station requested through loudspeakers that we be handed over to them. That's how we found ourselves in their hands. They took us to the Sports Centre, and the men were supposed to walk behind us. But they took the men's shirts off and started blindfolding them. At the Sports Centre, the Israelis submitted the young people to an interrogation, and the Phalangists delivered 200 people to them. And that's how neither my husband nor my sister's husband ever came back." Sana Mahmoud Sersawi

Now - apart from your conversation dahn the pub WHERE ARE YOUR WITNESSES - WHERE IS YOUR DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 09:43 AM

The use of bulldozers were reported on by witnesses
The fact that they were used is not disputed.

Yes, and?

There is no evidence for Israelis burying bodies. The Phalange may well have buried or trucked some out, but not hundreds without leaving a trace.

Report of the Kahan commission enquiry Lewiston Daily Sun Nov 2nd 1982
The commission members questioned them closely on evidence that could have implied Israeli Involvement
The witnesses said they saw as many as 10 bulldozers working in the Chatilla camp as they were led out of the area Saturday morning Sept. 18. Israeli officers acknowledged allowing entry of only one bulldozer, for clearing rubble.
It was later learned that the bulldozers were being used to hide evidence of the massacre and dig mass graves.
Ms. Siegel said she saw three bulldozers, each marked with a single Hebrew letter, which could have been an Israeli army Insignia.

None of that is true except that one dozer was supplied to clear rubble.
Why not look at the actual commission report instead of the Lewiston Daily Sun?!


Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.

He has never said any such thing! Where do you get this shit?

Neither of your two witness reports implicate Israelis! What is your point??

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 10:03 AM

" There, the bulldozer started digging. "

HOW???

C'mon Jim explain to us how a bulldozer digs a mass grave - you obviously believe it, simply because someone said it did - so you should be able to tell us how it is done.

A Bulldozer

An Excavator Jom - That CAN dig holes

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 10:11 AM

"He has never said any such thing! Where do you get this shit?"
I don't suppose you intend either to withdraw this or apologise for the accusation but the quote came from here (too large to blue clickie, I suspect
https://books.google.ie/books?id=ltg-UV-ddDgC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=Benny+Morris,+in+Israel%27s+Secret+Wars,+stated+that+Israeli+forces+provided+the+bulldozers+used+to+bury+the+massacred+Palestinians.&source=bl&ots=w1gPnpm1Rn&sig=vKmNVuVFUapjMbsLLJqVNu4ReUo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNkYGLxpHPAhXJAcAKHfZdBa4Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%2C%20in%20Israel's%20Secret%20Wars%2C%20stated%20that%20Israeli%20forces%20provided%20the%20bulldozers%20used%20to%20bury%20the%20massacred%20Palestinians.&f=false
The informantion is repeated here - alos too large to clickie - that qoote was
https://books.google.ie/books?id=-wwPNjSnxcYC&pg=PA644&lpg=PA644&dq=Benny+Morris+on+Sabra+Bulldozers&source=bl&ots=rqSBTI6geU&sig=VF7jO3o35b0b-HB1i9ggsDucIxY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw79KGxZHPAhWFLsAKHUh8AVYQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%20on%20Sabra%20Bulldozers&f=false

And here
Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 10:49 AM

Whoops - premature ejaculation
Start again.
"He has never said any such thing! Where do you get this shit?"
I don't suppose you intend either to withdraw this or apologise for the accusation but the quote came from here (too large to blue clickie, I suspect
https://books.google.ie/books?id=ltg-UV-ddDgC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=Benny+Morris,+in+Israel%27s+Secret+Wars,+stated+that+Israeli+forces+provided+the+bulldozers+used+to+bury+the+massacred+Palestinians.&source=bl&ots=w1gPnpm1Rn&sig=vKmNVuVFUapjMbsLLJqVNu4ReUo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNkYGLxpHPAhXJAcAKHfZdBa4Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%2C%20in%20Israel's%20Secret%20Wars%2C%20stated%20that%20Israeli%20forces%20provided%20the%20bulldozers%20used%20to%20bury%20the%20massacred%20Palestinians.&f=false
The information is repeated here - also too large to clickie - that qoote was
"The Israeli writer Benny Morris alleges that the IDF provided bulldozers to bury as many dead as possible so as to lessen the grim impact of the event."
https://books.google.ie/books?id=-wwPNjSnxcYC&pg=PA644&lpg=PA644&dq=Benny+Morris+on+Sabra+Bulldozers&source=bl&ots=rqSBTI6geU&sig=VF7jO3o35b0b-HB1i9ggsDucIxY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw79KGxZHPAhWFLsAKHUh8AVYQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%20on%20Sabra%20Bulldozers&f=false

And here
Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.
Bulldozers

The same information is here
"They dug a big hole in the ground. I saw them filling it in today. They had a big bulldozer pushing dirt in on top of it."
Eye witness account

Ang Swee's statement
I worked in Gaza Hospital in Sabra Shatilla during the massacre trying to save the lives of a few dozen people, but outside the hospital hundreds were killed. My patients and I knew that Sharon and his officers were in control, and without them the massacre would not be possible. The residents of Sabra Shatilla could at least have escaped. Now more than 30 years later, we know that the killers were brought in by Israeli armoured cars and tanks, obeyed Israeli commands, their paths lit by Israeli military flares, and some of them also wore Israeli uniforms. The mutilated bodies of the victims were thrown into mass graves by Israeli bulldozers.
Eye Witness account

Fortunately for the physician, by about 5 P.M. Friday, an International Red Cross convoy made it to the hospital and evacuated everyone left there. The doctor said that at about 5:30 P.M., as he was leaving the facility for safety, he saw at the southern end of Shatila what he estimated to be 80 to 90 bodies. They had been mixed together with sand and were being pushed by bulldozers.
Eye witness doctor

How much more information do you want before you provide a shred of your own?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 11:52 AM

Oh dear, oh dear Jim, in a couple of those links of yours you have your sources still rabbiting on about the alleged massacre at Jenin that we all now definitely know never happened, a story founded and based on deliberate lies told by the Palestinians.

Nowhere in any of that sham "evidence" does it state that 3,500 people were killed, nowhere in any of that sham "evidence" does it state that Israelis killed anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM

How about responding to what has been said about the Bulldozers - including by a prominent and respected Israeli historian, instead of trying to throw up yet another smokescreen
Keith has refused to respond to the actual accusations of what Israel did - wanna try your luck?
No
Thought not.
I concede that my "sham" evidence has been overwhelmingly proved to be just that - whoops - sorry, you have yet to put up any (except from your mate at closing time!!!)
Stop bullshitting and dogdging behind something that is not being disputed Answer the points
If my evidence is "sham" - disprove it with some of your own.
Jim Carroll

Israel said there was one bulldozer to clear up the rubble - there were found to be ten burying bodies.
Israel's record on keeping score on how many civilians they slaughtered is abominable - go and compare their claims with the actual figures.
According to the Israeli military, the official count was 700 people killed while Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk put the figure at 3,500.
"In his book published soon after the massacre,[77] the Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk of Le Monde Diplomatique, arrived at about 2,000 bodies disposed of after the massacre from official and Red Cross sources and "very roughly" estimated 1,000 to 1,500 other victims disposed of by the Phalangists themselves to a total of 3,000–3,500."

Gaza 2015
"In its most recent count, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that 2,104 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, including 1,462 civilians, among them 495 children and 253 women. Those U.N. numbers would mean that 69 percent of the total killed were civilians.
By contrast, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this week that Israeli forces­ had killed "approximately 1,000 terrorists," which would mean that far fewer of the 2,104 Palestinian dead were civilians — roughly 52 percent.
Israeli military forces­ pride themselves on being "the most moral army in the world." The Palestinians say Israeli bombardment was frequently indiscriminate or directed at targets where the risk of civilian casualties was high.
In Israel, critics charge that the U.N. numbers are inaccurate and biased, in part because the United Nations bases its reports on numbers generated by human rights groups working in Gaza, which they say cannot be trusted."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:28 PM

""The implication is that the [Israeli Defense Forces] deliberately aided the killers," Morris writes. "This is essentially untrue." As proof, he references the Kahan Commission of Inquiry, which—he claims—comes to the conclusion that the Israeli army had been unaware that a massacre was taking place and that "when awareness finally dawned, it intervened and stopped it. "
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-benny-morris-gets-wrong-about-my-book-11601

The ICRC supervised the burials, and it may well be that the IDF supplied them with equipment to bury the bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:44 PM

Keith has refused to respond to the actual accusations of what Israel did

I have responded to all your ludicrous accusation!
AGAIN, SAY WHAT YOU THINK I HAVE MISSED AND I WILL RESPOND!

Israel said there was one bulldozer to clear up the rubble - there were found to be ten burying bodies.

No. Siegel said she only saw one. None were found to be burying bodies unless they were being used by ICRC.

Israel's record on keeping score on how many civilians they slaughtered is abominable - go and compare their claims with the actual figures.

ICRC figures are less than Israel's!

" The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross delegation to the Minister of Defense stated that Red Cross representatives had counted 328 bodies. This figure, however, does not include all the bodies, since it is known that a number of families buried bodies on their own initiative without reporting their actions to the Red Cross. The forces who engaged in the operation removed bodies in trucks when they left Shatilla, and it is possible that more bodies are lying under the ruins in the camps or in the graves that were dug by the assailants near the camps. The letter noted that the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September. According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross, the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males; as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children. Reports from Palestinian sources speak of a far greater number of persons killed, sometimes even of thousands. With respect to the number of victims, it appears that we can rely neither on the numbers appearing in the document from Lebanese sources, nor on the numbers originating in Palestinian sources. A further difficulty in determining the number of victims stems from the fact that it is difficult to distinguish between victims of combat operations and victims of acts of slaughter. We cannot rule out the possibility that various reports included also victims of combat operations from the period antedating the assassination of Bashir. Taking into account the fact that Red Cross personnel counted no more that 328 bodies, it would appear that the number of victims of the massacre was not as high as a thousand, and certainly not thousands.
According to I.D.F. intelligence sources, the number of victims of the massacre is between 700 and 800 (testimony of the director of Military Intelligence, pp. 139-140). "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

"No. Siegel said she only saw one. None were found to be burying bodies unless they were being used by ICRC."
You've had numerous statements referring to the number and what they were doing
Benny Morris saif they were there to hide the number of deaths - what's he a "self hating Jew!?
"The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross "
Kahan Commision report (unlinked, of course - I wonder why?) - hardly unbiased evidence
You have the estimates, including those done by an Israeli Journalist who attempted to count them
Pa-thet-ic - even by your standards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:32 PM

Here is the exact situation over casualty numbers
C. Victims
The exact number of victims from the Sabra and Shatila massacre is not and will never be precisely known. Estimations have always varied widely between 700 to 3500. The lowest number (between 700 and 800 victims) has been produced by the IDF and was used by the Israeli Commission of inquiry, as « this may well be the number most closely corresponding to reality » (The Kahan Commisssion, 1983). The Lebanese authorities published higher figures in the middle of October 1982. According to official sources, casualties reached the number of 2 000, and are divided as follows: 762 identified corpses have been buried by the Lebanese army or the Red Cross, whereas 1200 others have been buried by families on their own initiative and registered with the Red Cross.
The Lebanese historian Bayan al-Hout (2004) conducted fieldwork between 1982 and 1984 on casualties in Sabra and Shatila. She identified 1390 cases: 906 dead and 484 "missing".
Amnon Kapeliouk, an Israeli journalist, worked on a reconstitution of the events soon after the slaughter. He based his personal inquiry upon primary sources, such as testimonies, IDF archives and declarations, press reports, evidences gathered by the Israeli Commission of inquiry, etc. and published the results of his research in 1982: Sabra and Shatila. Inquiry Into a Massacre (Sabra et Chatila: enquéte sur un massacre], which became a reference book.
In A. Kapeliouk's opinion, the number of victims reached 3 000 - 3 500. He added to the 2000 death formally listed and recognized by the Lebanese authorities three other kinds of victims:
-* Those who were buried in mass graves dug up by the assailants and whose bodies have not been brought up;
-* Those who died under the ruins of their houses;
-* The "missing" who were taken alive to unknown destinations and never returned. According to the Red Cross, the number of the "missing" reached 359 between the 18th and the 20th of September.
No estimation of the number of injured was given, but cases of mutilation are numerous.

SOURCE

From the same source
On the morning of Friday the 17th, new Phalangists' units entered the camps. At the height of the
assault, the militiamen were about 400. The killing went on all day long with its share of summary
executions, house demolitions, and looting of private goods such as money or jewellery. Corpses
were lying on the streets, abandoned under ruins or bulldozed in mass graves. Witnesses saw many
inhabitants piled up onto trucks and driven outside the camps to unknown destinations. Nobody
knows what became of them. They are the "missing" of the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:52 PM

"ICRC figures are less than Israel's!"
Your carefully unlinked statemment is just as carefully selected, hiding the fact that the bit you have carefully chosen is heavily disputed in the rest of the chapter and is no way a definitive statement
You have doctored it to make it appear fact, wnen it is actually the part of an arument
Which is, of course, why you didn't link it.
The rest of the book makes pretty interesting reading too!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 02:29 PM

Benny Morris said they were there to hide the number of deaths
He did not.

Here is the easily found report of the Kahan Commission.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html

From the same source

Maybe, but not from the actual Kahan Commission Report.

Kahan Commision report (unlinked, of course - I wonder why?) - hardly unbiased evidence

Sorry, but that is Israel's version of events and nothing you have found contradicts it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:20 PM

"Benny Morris said they were there to hide the number of deaths
He did not.
One more time
"Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.
complete with link
Ther are two more links to him having said the same.
You've been given the quote and the source
"Here is the easily found report of the Kahan Commission."
I've read the Kahan whitewash - in fact your non-link points out that the lowest figures for the massacre are those presented by Israel
"Sorry, but that is Israel's version of events"
Exactllt - and everything I have given contradicts Israel's version - as does the book you didn't link us to (deliberately)
No point in discussing with you pair of braindeads - you lie incessantly, you deny everything, and once again, you lie incessantly
The pair of you are a disgusting mess
You take up one thing - make stupid statements, them drop it (as you have your ludicrous statements about the flares.
Your dishonsty of attempting to produce something as fact, deliberately not linking it becase not only was it a lying claim by the accused (Israel), but the actual quote contains masses of evidence showing iIsrael to be everything I have claimed
That is lying - pure and simple.
You are now denying opinions gathered by Benny Morris's book
You mate seems to have pissed off to the pub to gather more evidence.
Might continue letting him humiliating himself tomorrow - you are just embarrassing.
It's like arguing with somebody with learning difficulties.
Christians - I've shit 'em!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 09:27 PM

Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers complete with link

He may have said that IDF provided equipment used to bury the massacred Palestinians, but to and under the supervision of ICRC after Phalange left. The author I quoted, and DID provide a link to, makes clear that Morris denies any involvement of Israelis in the massacre or supposed cover up.

in fact your non-link points out that the lowest figures for the massacre are those presented by Israel

No Jim.
Israel estimated 800.
" According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross,< the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males;as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children."

"the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September."

That would give a total of 819, but there would be overlap of victims not identified, and some were not victims of the camp massacre.

your ludicrous statements about the flares.
Not ludicrous at all. The flares support Israel's version, not yours.

deliberately not linking it becase not only was it a lying claim by the accused (Israel),

I have linked. I just assumed you were aware of the Kahan Report and could read it.

You are now denying opinions gathered by Benny Morris's book

No. The problem is that neither of us has read it, but we do know that he denies any IDF collusion.
He is an historian, not a gatherer of opinions.

Change of subject.
No-one watching tonight's Question Time could ever deny that "Whither the Labour Party is a live issue!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 04:52 AM

So Jom 3,500 people were killed were they? - PROVE IT ( None of the links you provided in your post Jim Carroll - 15 Sep 16 - 10:49 AM claims anything like that the only number they seem to mention was 300 for Sabra-Shatila and of course mention of the Jenin Massacre which of course we later learned never occurred)
.

Keith A has accurately given the verifiable numbers killed in addition to the most probable estimates. And HE HAS provided you with the sources to check the figures

It was sort of like the 1.5 million who were supposed to have been killed in Iraq, but of course we all know now that that was pure fantasy based on a particularly dodgy survey. IBC who did make the effort to verify details put the numbers at less than a tenth of that figure and attributed the majority of those killed as being killed by the insurgents.

You still haven't told us how a bulldozer can dig a mass grave Jom, and that IS what you said they did. None of your eye witnesses said that the Israelis entered the camps and if that is true how could they be inside the camps where all the killing was done driving bulldozers? Who was it dug the graves before the bulldozers arrived? What did they use to dig them? We know from your eye witnesses and accounts from the ICRC and the Lebanese that they did the clean up, yet for some reason best known to yourself you dismiss their accounts and their figures.

Neither have you come up with any reason why it was that in Muslim dominated Lebanon during the Syrian occupation of that country that this "secret" mass grave hidden beneath a Sports Stadium was not dug up to expose all these thousands that the IDF were supposed to have killed and buried? The obvious reason of course Jom is that no such "secret" mass grave exists and that your figure of 3,500 is a gross exaggeration and 100% propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 07:30 AM

Once again facts and history trump propaganda and rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:40 AM

Ya want anti-semitism, Bubo? Here's the real deal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/21/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-skittles.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:41 AM

No Greg. It does not compare to this (9 hours ago)

Ruth Smeeth: 'I've never seen anti-Semitism in Labour like this, it's normal now'

"Since then she has been called a "yid c***" (among other racial slurs), a "CIA/ MI5/Mossad informant"(see Jim's accusation of this too), a "dyke", and a "f***ing traitor". In all she's experienced more than 25,000 incidents of abuse, much of it racial. "

"And yet because of threats from her own party, Smeeth now has "security" — organised by the parliamentary authority and police. She can't give exact details but says she won't be going to Labour conference alone on Sunday. "

"I don't talk about Israel or Palestine. This [abuse] is not about anything I've said on Middle-East politics. I don't participate." She describes herself as "culturally Jewish" — her husband is Irish Catholic."
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-antisemitism-in-labour-like-this-its-normal-now-a3349

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:46 AM

"So Jom 3,500 people were killed were they? - "
I produced evidence suggesting that was the figure - so far you have produced.... well.. denials.
You prove they weren't
The facts won't #go away by your wishing them to.
As I said, doesn't matter anyway - if it was 350 it would be mass-murder facilitated by Israel.
How did Bulldozers help bury bodies - probably the same as they did when they were photographed at Mecca removing the dead.
Or maybe the same way my old man did when he dug holes with the fitted scoop to bury the dredge from the Manchester Ship Canal.
Ten bulldozers were confirmed to have entered the site following whitewash
Didn't your boozing mate mention them - tut-tut??
These are not "my" claims - they have all been linked to reports.
You have provided nothing - and Keith continues
with his "Israel didn't do nuffin guv"
Not waving but drowning, as the poet said
Give us something solid, for cryin' out loud - the pair of you have long blown your credibility.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 12:18 PM

It does not compare to this

Correct, professor. Its infinately worse. I don't see any Labour members supporting White Supremecist groups and making jokes aboput The Holocaust.