BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 04:10 PM

Desperate post from Keith. He doesn't recognise the conspiracy against Corbyn even when it rears up and bites him on the bollock. And anyone who thinks that the Tories have ever occupied the "middle ground" is clearly as mad as a box of frogs. Unspeakable and malevolent rubbish, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:04 PM

Read tha article Keith
The Group is a political one pledged to defend Israel - which, in the present circumstances, means the present regime.
It doesn't matter anyway - in order for the leaflet to be "antisemitic" as claimed, it would have to be attacking the Jewish People - it doesn't - it attacks a group
Accusing a political or workers group criticising the Israeli Regime of being "antisemitic" would be like accusing anybody criticising say the TUC of being Anti-British The Israeli establishment is not, nor does it represent the Jewish People as a whole
This makes my point perfectly - all these claims of Antisemitism aimed at the Labour Party are traceable back to teh Israeli propaganda machine.
If you want to prove that antisemitism is a serious problem within the Labour then you are going to have tyo start coming up with examples stroger than open and obvious criticism of Israel - "produce the body or you have no case"
Jim Carroll
"Jewish Labour Movement woken by Israel's kiss
A former officer at the Israeli embassy in London, Ella Rose, has been appointed as the new director of the Jewish Labour Movement. From Asa Winstanley's account it seems as though the embassy sees the once defunct JLM as its anti-BDS weapon of choice."
Jews For Justice

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:11 AM

Jim,
The Group is a political one pledged to defend Israel

Yes it is. What is wrong with that?

- which, in the present circumstances, means the present regime.

Bollocks!. Not this or any previous regime, and it has never suggested this or any were above criticism.

Steve, you must be desperate or dishonest to claim it is all a "conspiracy" and that the Guardian, BBC, Huff Post, Indy etc are all gullible dupes with no clue what is happening.
You are just making yourself ridiculous.

The Independent, 14 hours ago.
"Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis denounces 'appalling anti-Semitism in Labour Party'
Loyal supporters are deserting Labour because of the issue, Mr Lewis says
Rob Merrick Deputy Political Editor @Rob_Merrick 14 hours "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-clive-lewis-antisemitism-speech-praise-rousing-appalling-party-a7333396.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:20 AM

BBC on Centre Ground.

"Although the voters were moving leftwards, the Labour Party was seen as even further left, and it was not until 1997, when Tony Blair had abandoned the extremes of left-wing Labour policy and moved his party to the centre, that they won."

""Most voters are in the centre-ground. Most party members and most MPs are not," Dr Tom Quinn, one of John Bartle's colleagues at Essex University, told BBC Radio 4's World at One.
"When you see parties which track closely to the centre-ground like Blair's New Labour, it causes internal tensions. So there were always problems between Blair and the trade unions, and Blair and the Brown-ites. When David Cameron moved the Conservatives to the centre it caused problems with the Conservative right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31973051

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM

You have the fact that the Israelis have revived the J.L.M. and placed one of its own supporters at its head in order to combat the boycott campaign
You choose to ignore it.
That information came from Jews who oppose the regime, your ignoring it is proof that you are more interested in defending and extremist right-wing regime than you are defending the Jewish People.
You move on to even more unsubstantiated quotes from political infighters.
You refuse to address the implications of the undeniable links between the Israelis and the attack on the Labour Party.
So far almost every example of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party has been attacks on Israeli policy and behaviour - not on the Jewish people
THAT IS NOT ANTISEMITISM BY ANY DEFINITION - THE ISRAELIS ARE NOT THE JEWS AND THEY HAVE MADE A POINT OF ATTACKING AND DENIGRATING JEWS WHO OPPOSE THEIR POLICIES
If there is antisemitism in the Labour party tell us what it is and how it manifests itself - so far, you have refused to do so.
WHAT IS THIS SO-CALLED ANTISEMTISM IF IT EXISTS?,/font>
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:51 AM

"the fact that the Israelis have revived the J.L.M. and placed one of its own supporters at its head in order to combat the boycott campaign"

What fact?

What connection between the Israeli Government and the Jewish Labour Movement?

The person currently and the person previously at the head of the JLM were both elected, nobody was "placed" anywhere.

So the JLM was formed in order to combat the BDS Campaign was it? Must have had amazing foresight if indeed that was the case the JLM being formed in 2004 while the BDS Campaign didn't form itself until 2005.

Alternatively a movement established in 2004 waits until 2016 and the retirement of it's Chairman to combat and confront an organised campaign that got underway in 2005.

Either way it is totally illogical and ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 06:16 AM

"So the JLM was formed in order to combat the BDS Campaign was it?"
Read the links
No it was not.
"the embassy sees the once defunct JLM " (Jews for Justice)
It eas resurrected and a regime employee was appointed as its head.
Quote in full -again
"Jewish Labour Movement woken by Israel's kiss
A former officer at the Israeli embassy in London, Ella Rose, has been appointed as the new director of the Jewish Labour Movement. From Asa Winstanley's account it seems as though the embassy sees the once defunct JLM as its anti-BDS weapon of choice."
Jews For Justice"
If oyu can't be arsed to read the information put up and respond to it honestly, then I can't be arsed to respond to you.
Haven't you had enough humiliation?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 07:03 AM

No facts just opinions

No link between the Israeli Government and the Jewish Labour Movement

By the way the head of the JLM is it's Chairman not it's Director.

Your Link:

"Jewish Labour Movement (JLM), a leading voice in recent claims that the Labour Party has a problem with antisemitism, has published an extraordinary attack on Jewish critics of Israel, seemingly suggesting that those dissenting from support for Zionism are not actually Jewish."

You mean the same as:

The "Momentum" Movement, has mounted an extraordinary attack on critics of Jeremy Corbyn, seemingly suggesting that those dissenting from support for Jeremy Corbyn are not actually real "socialists" or Labour Party Members.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM

The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader
It's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established - you want to prove that she wasn't - do so.
Remind me of how Theresa May set about removing obstacles when she became Prime Minister!!
To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established.
All cases so far have been established as being criticism of Israel, not the Jewish People - this is common sense and humanity - not Antisemitism.
All of these statements are based on provide information, whereas all yours are opinions backed up by nothing.
Put up or go talk to your mate - I'm really not interested in prolongling this time-wasting nonsense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 09:59 AM

"The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader"

Not really surprising that is it? Considering that Corbyn counts Hamas and Hezbollah as being his "friends" along with his total inaction and total failure in exercising any leadership in curbing the excesses of the undoubtedly anti-Semitic elements amongst his supporters (Jewish Members of the Labour Party have complained about it and I have no cause to doubt them and can see no reason for them to deliberately lie about it)

"It's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established - you want to prove that she wasn't - do so."

I believe that Ella Rose is a British Citizen, who was born and raised in the UK, where she went to University. Upon graduating she got a job at the Israeli Embassy, a job she subsequently left to take up her job with the Jewish Labour Movement - now at what point in that career path was Ella Rose ever part of the "Israeli Regime"? I would like to point out that it is not uncommon at all for Foreign Embassies to employ what are known as "locally employed personnel".

"Remind me of how Theresa May set about removing obstacles when she became Prime Minister!!

HUH??? What on earth has that got to do with anything??

"To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established."

Ah so the urgent and immediate recommendations to combat racism (anti-Semitism) in the Labour Party tabled by Baroness Royall were a figment of our imagination were they? What about the recommendations tabled by Labour's newest Peer Shami Chakrabarti who was awarded her peerage after how many days as a member of the Labour Party?

The BDS Campaign is deliberately directed against and affects the people of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

Jim,
You refuse to address the implications of the undeniable links between the Israelis and the attack on the Labour Party.

It is eminently deniable!! No evidence or any fact has been produced.

So far almost every example of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party has been attacks on Israeli policy and behaviour - not on the Jewish people

Not true. Can you find a single such example? NO!

If there is antisemitism in the Labour party tell us what it is and how it manifests itself - so far, you have refused to do so.

I am not in a position to know, but the NEC is.
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party"
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader

The whole Party, apart from the recent entrants, overwhelmingly did too, so nothing exceptional there.

t's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established -

No it has not! Instead of just repeating your vacuous claims, show us the evidence. Good luck with that.

To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established.

Yes it has!
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party"
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

All cases so far have been established as being criticism of Israel, not the Jewish People

No it has not! Instead of just repeating your vacuous claims, show us the evidence. Good luck with that.

All of these statements are based on provide information,

No they are not!

whereas all yours are opinions backed up by nothing.

They are backed by quotes from numerous prominent members and officials, the entire NEC and Corbyn's speech today.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 01:57 PM

Still nothing other than denials
Still no response to facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel
Still; no description of the "antisemitism" Labour has been accused of.
Still no numbers involved.
A trial without specified charges and unnamed accused.
Instead we have unspecified charges against unspecified people against a party that has no record by a group of politicians who are virtually all linked back to a regime that is desperately trying to offset a boycott of goods brought about because of that regime's record of Human Rights abuses and atrocities - the only ones that haven't been were opponents of and have just been thrashed by a leader who supports the rights of the Palesnians and is an outspoken opponent of the people who have instigated these charges in the first place
Think we're done here, don't you?
G'night sweethearts
Jim Carroll
"The question you have to ask yourself is, why? Why has this issue been resurrected with a vengeance, so soon after its previous outing was disposed of as a farce? Is it because of a handful of allegedly antisemitic social media postings from Labour members? Is it because of the tongue-in-cheek map posted by Naz Shah? That's not believable. The only plausible answer is, it's political. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the factual situation; instead, a few suspect cases of antisemitism – some real, some contrived – are being exploited for an ulterior political motive. As one senior Labour MP said the other day, it's transparently a smear campaign."

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:57 PM

Still no response to facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel

If it is a fact, support it with some evidence.

Still; no description of the "antisemitism" Labour has been accused of.

Shah's antisemitism has been described.
I am not in a position to know about the rest of it, but the NEC is, and it has also been referred to by numerous prominent members and officials and in Corbyn's speech today, so stop making yourself ridiculous by denying it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:38 AM

"facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel" - Jim Carroll

Care to enlighten us as to how that could possibly come about?

Perhaps you could tell us what position British born Hertsmere Labour activist Jeremy Newmark has in the Israeli Government? He after all as actual elected head of the JLM and former CEO of the UK's Jewish Leadership Council, was the man who sanctioned the recruitment and appointment of Ella Rose to the newly created post of Director of the JLM.

It would appear that this "fact" of yours, like so many of your other "facts" is just pure fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM

Steve,

Desperate post from Keith. He doesn't recognise the conspiracy against Corbyn even when it rears up and bites him on the bollock.

It has not. Nor has it bitten BBC, Guardian, Indy, Huff or any other rational commentator.
It is just a convenient conspiracy theory to explain away the hard facts.

And anyone who thinks that the Tories have ever occupied the "middle ground" is clearly as mad as a box of frogs. Unspeakable and malevolent rubbish, as ever.

" When David Cameron moved the Conservatives to the centre it caused problems with the Conservative right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31973051"

Does one of the Bs stand for box of frogs Steve?
Are they guilty of being "desperate" and disseminating "unspeakable and malevolent rubbish?

Of course not.
You got it wrong again, and villified and ridiculed me for getting it right again.

You would look less ridiculous if you avoided name calling and ridicule when so often you are subsequently proved wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 02:13 PM

The "anti-Semitism" row continues to rumble on with calls from those within the Labour Party for Jackie Walker to be expelled permanently.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 10:35 AM

Now the other thread has become devoted to Middle East politics, perhaps we can discuss the original subject here again.

The latest development is that Jackie Walker, previously suspended over allegations of antisemitism but later re-admitted, has been suspended again!

BBC,
"Momentum vice-chair 'suspended by Labour' amid anti-Semitism row"

"Earlier, the TSSA union said it would "seriously reconsider" its support for Momentum if Ms Walker remained in place and the group said its steering committee would meet on Monday to seek her removal.
But a spokesman for Momentum, the left-wing grassroots organisation set up in wake of Jeremy Corbyn's 2015 election as Labour leader, said: "Members of Momentum's steering committee are seeking to remove Jackie Walker as vice-chair of the committee."

It can not be argued that this comes from anti-Corbynites. These are pro-Corbynites.
BBC again,
"Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA union, which backed Momentum and Mr Corbyn's leadership, said on Thursday he was "deeply saddened that a fellow member of our Labour and trade union family holds such anti-Semitic views" and said she should not be allowed to "remain active within our party".
"I am asking Jackie that in the interests of unity she resigns at once from our party and also as vice-chair of Momentum.
"If she doesn't, both the Labour Party and Momentum need to act to get rid of her at once.
"We would seriously need to consider our union's support for Momentum if she is still in post by this time next week." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37526320

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM

Now the other thread has become devoted to Middle East politics, perhaps we can discuss the original subject here again.

Says the Professor, who derailed the thread in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM

Not true Greg.
I was the one who kept objecting to Israel being discussed.

On this thread, Jim attacked Israel on 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM , and in the other thread he did it on 15 Aug 16 - 02:40 AM .

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

If Jackie Walker is expelled it will be wrong - nothing she said can be described as Antisemitic
If suggesting that non Jews should be remembered on Holocaust dat is now antisemitic, it is proof positive that there is no longer a working definition of that term.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:17 AM

If suggesting that non Jews should be remembered on Holocaust dat is now antisemitic,

They are. Walker had just not bothered to check that her beliefs and prejudice were just propaganda.


If Jackie Walker is expelled it will be wrong
She is.

nothing she said can be described as Antisemitic

That is just your opinion, and Steve's, but almost no-one in the Labour Party agrees with you. Your view of what constitutes antisemitism is suspect.
You claimed that Shah had not made antisemitic comments.
Her antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, but denied by you two.

You just do not see it even when your faces are rubbed in it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:34 AM

It is not Antisemitic to suggest that othr victims of the Holocaust should share Holocaust Day, b#y any stretch of the imagination
To suggest that other victims can't is Apartheid beyond the grave and a conformation of everything that has gone wrong with Israel - a dream shattered by fascistm
It is indecently grotesque to exclude victims from such an event - show me a definition that does
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:49 AM


It is not Antisemitic to suggest that othr victims of the Holocaust should share Holocaust Day, b#y any stretch of the imagination

No. She was just ignorant of the fact that they do share Holocaust day.
Walker had just not bothered to check that her beliefs and prejudice were just anti-Jewish propaganda.

To suggest that other victims can't is Apartheid beyond the grave and a conformation of everything that has gone wrong with Israel

It would be if it was true, but it is just lying propaganda. Holocaust Day DOES encompass all acts of genocide since WW2.

It is indecently grotesque to exclude victims from such an event

It would be, but it is not true. It is just lying anti-Jewish propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM

" She was just ignorant of the fact that they do share Holocaust day."Whre have they ever been included or even mentioned?
Utter indecent and inhuman crap
It took Germany up to 2011 to invite a Roma as guest of honor at German'y's Holocaust Day - Britain never has, nor probably ever will
How is it possibly an insult to the Jewish people to put that right
Apartheid beyond the grave - sick-sick-sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM

I see Carroll is up to his usual - continually repeating a lie in an attempt to manufacture more anti-Jewish sentiment - he is obsessed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

Wiki,
"Holocaust Memorial Day (HMD) (27 January) is a national commemoration day in the United Kingdom dedicated to the remembrance of those who suffered in The Holocaust, under Nazi Persecution, and in subsequent genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

Schwarz-Friesel is one of the most quoted experts on anti-Semitism in both international academic literature and the German media.

In her numerous publications she analyzes and exposes new manifestations of old anti-Semitic sentiments — disguised though they might be — employing much of the same Jew-hatred that has been shaping European discourse throughout the years, even when officially outlawed.

These analyses are evidence that recent anti-Israeli tropes demonizing the Jewish state are actually work-arounds of old anti-Semitic sentiments that have been with us for two millennia.

Zionism is being equated with racism and Israel is being called an "apartheid regime," posing the greatest danger to world peace. Such ideas have nothing to do with the reality on the ground. Instead they reflect classic anti-Semitic stereotypes that have been with us for 2,000 years and that brand Jews as murderers and an omnipresent evil force in the world.

There is a global Israelization of anti-Semitic discourse. The articulation of traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes by projecting them onto Israel is by now the most dominant manifestation of modern Jew hatred.

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:27 AM

A dead thread. You're trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM

Labour antisemitism has been high in the news again in the last few days.
It is a current and live issue.
You may wish it was dead, but it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

A concerted effort by two trolls on the same day to revive a toxic thread. Very suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:54 PM

Uncomfortable truths eh Shaw. Tell us again why you think you're entitled to define anti-semitism for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:01 PM

There are now two Labour threads. This one is utterly toxic and infested by trolls. We don't need two threads. I appeal to the moderators to shut this one down.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:01 PM

There are now two Labour threads. This one is utterly toxic and infested by trolls. We don't need two threads. I appeal to the moderators to shut this one down.


Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

The whole point of my last two posts, Stu, is that I AM "giving it a rest," so your non-moderatorial injunction is not appreciated, thank you very much.