BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 11:14 AM

Teribus, I know I shouldn't have expected you to know this but in University circles the term, "the student body" refers to students at a university. Nothing more, nothing less. Not to members of specific group or club.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 11:37 AM

Keith, I understand fully how you need LabourList by your side as a commentary on all that's wrong with Labour (they don't pull their punches, do they, so quite handy for you), but it is most decidedly NOT a house journal. It is a bunch of people who purport to be broadly centre-left who support the concept of a centre-left party in power (there is only one possibility, of course). As for "it provides that role and there is no other," that logic is laughable. Who says there has to be one? As for my not knowing it wasn't Labour, well as I receive the daily newsletter that would be rather odd. 😂😂😂 Anyway, the point is that it is is not as close to Labour as you want it to be, and using it in any way as a Labour mouthpiece is simply out of order. As for liars around here, there are only two, and you are both of 'em. 😅

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 02:59 PM

Rag,
Yes, she should have said, "The Oxfoand not just "the student body."rd University Labour Club student body"
She probably felt it unnecessary because everyone knew which student body she meant because everyone except you understood that she was specifically and only enquiring into the OULC and not the whole university student body of many thousands with no connection whatsoever to the Labour Party!

Steve, I do not use it as a Labour mouthpiece, but it has provided me with many quotes of senior figures that can not be challenged.

It is a bunch of people who purport to be broadly centre-left who support the concept of a centre-left party in power
No it is not. Its readers and contributors come from across the labour movement.
It fulfils the role of a house journal for the labour movement. You are evidence that it is relevant to people like you on the far left of the movement.

But tell us Steve, what quote from Labour List do you object to and why?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:03 PM

Correction. Sorry.

Rag,
Yes, she should have said, "The Oxford University Labour Club student body" and not just "the student body."
She probably felt it unnecessary because everyone knew which student body she meant because everyone except you understood that she was specifically and only enquiring into the OULC and not the whole university student body of many thousands with no connection whatsoever to the Labour Party!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:00 PM

Steve Shaw - 29 Jul 16 - 09:16 AM

"Stop acting like a baby, bobad. Unless you're about fourteen you should be realising by now that the world is never black and white."

It damn well seems to be when it suits your purposes Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:05 PM

Raggytash - 29 Jul 16 - 11:14 AM

"Teribus, I know I shouldn't have expected you to know this but in University circles the term, "the student body" refers to students at a university"

Now was Baroness Royall delivering her report to those in "university Circles" or was she asked to conduct her Inquiry by those in "University Circles" Raggy? No she was asked to investigate anti-Semitism within the Oxford University Labour Party and that is exactly what she did, she did not go about generally canvasing the students in Oxford.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:10 PM

I never object to free speech. I object to the lying and dissembling that we too often see here. I seem to spend half my time objecting to the deliberate and serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus, bobad and akenaton. As for quotes that can't be challenged, well, Keith, we know that in nearly every post you make you appeal to some authority or other, so you would say that, wouldn't you?   As for me, I don't care who says stuff. To me, nothing is beyond challenge.

Good example of your misrepresentation: "You are evidence that it is relevant to people like you on the far left of the movement." If you really think that the general tenor of LabourList is "far left" then you really are in cloud cuckoo land. In fact, I take very little notice of it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:13 PM

Content-free side-swipe from Teribus. Maybe he's had a long day, poor dear. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:58 PM

serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus, bobad and akenaton.

serious misrepresentations = trolling = challenging my bullshit = boo hoo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:06 PM

Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:30 PM

POINT ONE.

From the professor " Rag, Yes, she should have said, "The Oxfoand not just "the student body."rd University Labour Club student body"

Did I really type that ? If so my humble apologies. I know I make mistakes on occasion (normally after a pint ... or three)

But perchance it was an attempt at a selective cut and paste (again) or perhaps it was a downright attempt to alter my post.

If you can't be bothered to even cut and paste correctly why on earth should anyone pay the slightest heed to the things you type. Why do you even bother.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:42 PM

POINT TWO

I had thought professor, that as you claim to have been a teacher, you may have achieved a degree level education. Perhaps I was mistaken and you were one of the teachers (some of which I encountered) who merely attained a Cert Ed.

Anyone who went to a university would recognise the term "the student body" as referring to the students who attended a particular college.

Teribus pontificates that Baroness Royall did not canvass the students of Oxford (how he reached that opinion I do not know) but I will acknowledge the point as being reasonable, however I very much doubt if she canvassed the members of the Oxford University Labour Club.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 05:54 PM

POINT THREE.

However, given that Baroness Royall is a well educated and very experienced Politician I doubt very much that she was careless in her choice of vocabulary.

I would suggest that when she referred to "the student body" she implied "the student body" she referred to the students of Oxford University.

Of course if someone hasn't achieved a university level education they may not realise or even be aware of this.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:22 PM

Grow up. = QED

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:34 PM

QED? You never demonstrate anything other than what a two-faced, two-timing, cheating, racist, antisemitic, Islamophobic, immature coward you are. Apart from that, you're fine. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 06:39 PM

Is that all the invective you can come up with? You can do better than that, you're slipping. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 07:43 PM

Nope. It just that you're not worth it. And stop copying my 😂😂😂. Try to come up with something original. Oh sorry, I forgot. You only copy stuff from extremist right-wing websites. One day, when you finally get out of your teenie mindset, you might just start thinking for yourself. Few signs so far. It's a hard life here with the big boys, innit? Trouble is, you got off to such a bad start with your weasly, cheating double identity. As I said, grow up. In the meantime, just bugger off until you find something sensible to contribute, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:49 AM

Steve Shaw - 29 Jul 16 - 04:10 PM

"I never object to free speech. I object to the lying and dissembling that we too often see here. I seem to spend half my time objecting to the deliberate and serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus"

IF that be the case Shaw give us an example of such "deliberate and serious misrepresentations"

Now then Folks my bet is that he won't - "Free Speech" Shaw is great at making up and throwing baseless accusations about - but when challenged can never back them up - this one will prove to be no exception.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 02:38 AM

""deliberate and serious misrepresentations""
Where to start?
All this aside, this little band of heroes - a blustering bully, a vitriol-hurling troll and a Uriah Heep wannabe, has valiantly continued to attempt to smear the Labour Party as Antisemitic, long after the rest of the world has moved on - as with the previous campaign, they have failed miserably.
The Labour Party were accused, they responded to those accusations - no evidence was found.
Back in May the Conservative Party was accused of Islamophobia - they immediately sprang into action ans did...... nothing; no enquiry, no response... nothing after three and a half months.
Which twin wes the Toni, as the old ad used to say.
After Theresa the Teaser's Night of the Long Knives, Britain got itself a semi-articulate racist foreign secretary who still refers blacks as "piccanninnis" with "watermelon smiles".
The newly incumbent foreign secretary hit the headlines not too long ago by refering to the President of the U.S's "Kenyan background", harking back to the 2008 dirty tricks campaign which alleged that Obama was really a Kenyan born dual citizen and so, illegible for office.
All of which puts quibbling about the position of an in-house magazine where it belongs - a diversion.
And now comes a short period of talking-down to by our resident mental midget.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 04:11 AM

"The Labour Party were accused, they responded to those accusations - no evidence was found." - Sez Jom the Infallable

So let's review what subsequently happened shall we:

1: Because no evidence was found by the person asked to carry out this investigation came up with eleven recommendations that required immediate and sustained action - does that strike anyone as being a sign that all was well?

2: Because no evidence was found the person asked to investigate anti-Semitism within the OULC gave a further seven recommendations related to further issues to a separate investigation being conducted by Shami Chakrabarti - does that strike anyone as being a sign that all was well?

3: Labour's National Executive Council for reasons best known to themselves decided not to publish Baroness Royall's Report that according to Jom proves conclusively that no evidence of anti-Semitism was found - rather strange that don't you think? If the report gives the OULC a clean bill of health why not publish it? - Reeks of "cover-up".

4: Naz Shah must be a self-confessed liar - but I don't think she is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:09 AM

Steve,
If you really think that the general tenor of LabourList is "far left"

I don't and would never even suggest such nonsense.
It is of interest that you subscribe to the daily e mail though.
Now, why did you make an issue of Labour List in this discussion?
What was your point?

Jim,
has valiantly continued to attempt to smear the Labour Party as Antisemitic,

No. The Labour Party did that to itself.
I merely quoted those senior Lasbour figures making their accusations
You and Steve denied it was a serious issue and were proved wrong.

long after the rest of the world has moved on

Only because you and Steve kept your denials going, long after there was anything new to say about it.
It is you two that have kept it alive!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM

The rest of the world is indeed "moving on", moving on to create an "alternative" opposition by the looks of it if Corbyn wins in September. Looks like yer man is overseeing the destruction of the Labour Party in the UK. Main reason for that being that the ideologues in the Party have elected as leader a man who is totally incapable of being a "leader".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:06 AM

"No. The Labour Party did that to itself."
Repeat this as often as you want Keith - they didn't and investigations proved that the accusations were unfounded.
It was taken as a serious issue before the investigations - no basis in reality.
BDS
"Only because you and Steve kept your denials going,"
See above - when a couple of right-wing twerps continue to insist something that has been proved to be false, what do you expect.
I suppose the two of you are refusing to comment on the proven institutional racism of the Tory party on the grounds that it might incriminate you.
Never expected anything else from you 'champions of democracy and fair play'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:24 AM

Simple, Keith. LabourList is not Labour. You were quoting it as a Labour source, which it is not. The Daily Telegraph is a damn sight more loyal to the Tories than LabourList is to Labour, but we wouldn't call it the Tory house journal, would we, unless we were being sarcastic.

By the way, I hope Teribus is reading this. Neither Jim nor I have denied that Labour had an issue that needed addressing. Serious? The most serious aspect of the whole thing, in which a tiny handful out of half a million members made some unwise remarks, was the right-wing media firestorm that was whipped up, aided by the conspirators in the party who are trying to unseat Corbyn (unlike you, the conspirators have moved on to other gambits such as misogyny, threats of violence and bullying. When all that fails only baby-eating will be left). We have both said that, in our opinion, Labour has addressed the issue appropriately. We have also pointed out your hypocrisy in dwelling obsessively on a matter that Labour has dealt with openly and honestly while the people you support, Farage and Johnson, get away without comment from you (except that you defended Johnson's calling black babies piccaninnies, of course 😂) with their scurrilous, xenophobic, racist agenda, replete with lies. I'd say that you have misrepresented us both. Labour addressed the matter seriously and both Jim and I, unlike you, have comprehensively given you our opinions in detail and have denied nothing. All YOU do is quote from cherrypicked sources that fit your anti-Labour one-track mind agenda, well, at least when you are taking a break from defending a terrorist regime, that is. Never an opinion of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:26 AM

BDS - "Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) is a Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality. BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity."

Of course Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity. A simple statement from their leaders that unequivocally grants those same rights to the people of Israel would go a long way towards them achieving their goal.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:39 AM

From Steve Shaw:

"We have both said that, in our opinion, Labour has addressed the issue appropriately. We have also pointed out your hypocrisy in dwelling obsessively on a matter that Labour has dealt with openly and honestly while the people you support, Farage and Johnson, get away without comment from you (except that you defended Johnson's calling black babies piccaninnies, of course 😂) with their scurrilous, xenophobic, racist agenda, replete with lies. I'd say that you have misrepresented us both. Labour addressed the matter seriously and both Jim and I, unlike you, have comprehensively given you our opinions in detail and have denied nothing"

1: Jom's opinion was that no problem ever existed. That wasn't true was it? Seeing as how we happen to have caught you in your "open & honest" mode.

2: Labour hasn't dealt with it "openly and honestly" though has it? No names named, no publication of the report that both you and Jom insists declares the Labour Party to be as pure as the driven snow. Yet the person they tasked with the investigation has detailed recommendations requiring immediate and sustained action by the NEC.

3: I'd love to see an example of this alleged support for Boris Johnson and his ill-advised, sarcastic and reprehensible remarks that I am supposed to have given. But like all your baseless allegations no such example will be forthcoming - that is the true reflection of how honest and open minded you are Shaw. (Note: No examples of - the lying and dissembling that we too often see here. I seem to spend half my time objecting to the deliberate and serious misrepresentations made by you, Teribus")

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:51 AM

"Jom's opinion was that no problem ever existed."
Not mine, me little goose-stepper
The enquiriees that were held exonerated the party
The tort party doesn't have the bottle to look into their own racist and sectarian problems and you lot do't even dare to go there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:52 AM

Nah then, Teribus, in the Brexit thread you categorised me as a physical bully after I related how we Catholic primary school kids were allowed to behave towards the Protestant school kids up the road. You forgot that I'm now 65 and might just have moved on. 😂 In the last week in this thread Keith has accused me of being a Hezbollah supporter and has repeatedly asserted that I've denied Labour's antisemitism issue (even though I've discussed it here for months until I'm blue in the face and have denied nothing). Bobad has suggested that I support the "send 'em back to Auschwitz" brigade. That's enough misrepresentations for now. Life' s too bloody short.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 06:55 AM

Please learn to read, Teribus. The accusation about Boris was levelled at Keith, not you. Thanks anyway for yet another example of misrepresentation. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 07:07 AM

Teribus, if you publicly accuse named people of antisemitism you'd better have chapter and verse. The reason why no names were named harks back to that good ol' tenet of the rule of law, that you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Neither the Labour Party nor anyone else is entitled to bandy names around unless (a) they are absolutely certain that they have the accused persons bang to rights, or (b) they have a bloody good lawyer. The fact that names were not named could be taken to imply that definite conclusions about the intentionsw of the accused were not possible. Naturally, you'll put your own interpretation on it according to your personal agenda, won't you. Too bad. The thing is, you don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:14 AM

Bobad has suggested that I support the "send 'em back to Auschwitz" brigade. That's enough misrepresentations for now.

Just like you calling me an "Islamophobe"........sauce for the goose, eh Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM

"Teribus, in the Brexit thread you categorised me as a physical bully after I related how we Catholic primary school kids were allowed to behave towards the Protestant school kids up the road. You forgot that I'm now 65 and might just have moved on."

"Might just have"??? - In general Shaw Leopards do not change their spots - a person's character, especially if it is bad, will not change, even if they pretend it has.

So a point supposedly addressed to Keith A is included in a paragraph that does not mention him by name and begins - "By the way, I hope Teribus is reading this." - It is not me that needs to learn how to read Shaw, it is you that needs to learn how to write........😂😂😂

So Naz Shah was a liar then Shaw? Or is she the only one of some 50 Labour Party Members with the integrity to admit that she was in error through ignorance that was entirely her own?

You are the one that knows nothing related to the matter, the Labour Party's NEC have made sure of that, charges of a "Whitewash" and a "Cover-up" still stand - so much for your claimed honesty, openness and transparency of the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:40 AM

"Teribus, if you publicly accuse named people of antisemitism you'd better have chapter and verse. "
Don't ask for the moon Steve - if this pair of clowns had any evidence of Antisemitism they'd have produced it a long time ago. - they both live in their own heads.
Wanna put any money down on whether they'll ever get round to discussing Tory racism - probably thread drift by Keith's reckoning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 08:55 AM

Give it another week or two, Jim, and Teribus 'n' Keith will be the only people on the planet still burbling on about the Great Labour Antisemitism Disgrace. Naturally, they'll be doing it by adhering to their personal cock-eyed definition of antisemitism.

Bobad, if you accuse Hamas of killing all those children in Gaza during the last Israeli attack, as you do, then you are indeed an Islamophobe. If you refuse to accept that the killer is the man with the gun or the shells, preferring to call the people with whom you are ideologically at odds murderers, and those people are Islamic, you are an Islsmophobe. When you can never bring yourself to say a single positive thing about non-Jews in the Middle East, you are well on the way. You brand yourself an Islamophobe by the way you behave. And please don't think I don't already know the crass stupidity of the response that's coming. I'll call you a big baby now before you even say it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 09:19 AM

Jim,
"No. The Labour Party did that to itself."
Repeat this as often as you want Keith - they didn't and investigations proved that the accusations were unfounded.

No accusations came from me.
I only quoted senior Labour people saying that antisemitism among the membership was a serious issue for the party.
So serious that enquiries were set up that made numerous recommendations about how the problem should be dealt with.

Steve,
You were quoting it as a Labour source, which it is not.

Then why can you not identify any quote that you challenge?
Because you can't!
You are just trying to undermine my arguments without actually being able to challenge anything I have said!

In the last week in this thread Keith has accused me of being a Hezbollah supporter

You did support them by saying they ruled well in Lebanon and were loved by millions.

the only people on the planet still burbling on about the Great Labour Antisemitism Disgrace. Naturally, they'll be doing it by adhering to their personal cock-eyed definition of antisemitism.

That would be you two.
We have said nothing new about it for weeks.
You two just keep denying the facts so that we have to remind you of them.
All the claims about Labour antisemitism came from within Labour.
I just quoted them here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 09:59 AM

"No accusations came from me."
You've broken your neck trying to prove antisemitism, then misogyny, then bullying - nothing.
You've been told that any party would take such an accusation seriously (except the Tories, who have appointed a racist to one of the most sensitive jobs regarding relations with other races and cultures) - they investigated the accusation, as they soiuld and found no major problem - yet the pair of you cling on by the fingernails, while refusing to comment of Government racists.
It would have been irresponsible for the Party to ignore the accusation - doesn't bother the government though.
You are a pair pf hypocrites who are more concerned with making political capital and totally disinterested in racism - as you have made clear in the past.
No problem - unless you can provide examples and numbers - which, of course, you won't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 10:40 AM

I made factual statements about the status of Hezbollah and have never, ever stated that I support them, so take your twisted assertion and stick it where the sun don't shine, will you please. You are very good at at telling people what they think, aren't you. You told us authoritatively that Geoffrey Wheatcroft thought Taylor and Clark were both fraudulent, only it turned out he didn't think it, didn't it? And I did not say "loved" by millions, did I? And where have I challenged any quote from LabourList? I am simply helping you to understand that LabourList is not the same thing as Labour any more than the Daily Mail is the same thing as the Tory Party. And neither Jim nor I has been "denying the facts." We've been denying your twisted, agenda-laden opinions all right, but not one single fact have we denied. Of course, unlike you, we have chosen not to extrapolate to extra "facts" that can't be justified from the information available, and we apply the correct definition of antisemitism, the only one that is of any use, that antisemitism is attacking Jews because they are Jews, in interpreting what's been going on. Not criticising the behaviour of the Israeli regime, not being out of accord with Zionism, not even unwise, flippant remarks about relocating Israel to the US. Straighten your head out, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:04 PM

jim,
You've broken your neck trying to prove antisemitism, then misogyny, then bullying - nothing.

No. I have just repeated accusations from within Labour.
The Mayor of London accused Corbyn of refusing to address the issue of antisemitism within Labour.
The ex leader of Scottish Labour was more specific, saying it was Momentum problem.
The enquiries found such an issue with antisemitism that numerous recommendations, yet to be enacted, were found to be required.

Both of you denied that Shah had said anything antisemitic, proving yourself incapable of recognising antisemitism when presented with it.
The Party did recognise it, and suspended her until she apologised.
Having apologised and been reinstated, without having to she went on BBC to admit her statements WERE antisemitic and resulted from her ignorance.
Got that. You were wrong to deny her statements were antisemitic.
She was helped out of her ignorance by members of the Jewish community.
What lovely, forgiving people they must be.

while refusing to comment of Government racists.

All racism is deplorable, but I am not aware of any government racists.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:20 PM

Steve,
I apologise for misremembering your assertion.
You did not say they were loved.
Sorry.


I made factual statements about the status of Hezbollah

No. You made unsupported assertions.
You claimed that "millions of people in Lebanon and Gaza approve of Hamas and Hezbollah, not just for resisting Israel but also because they help to run the country, rather well in the case of Lebanon."

How do you know this?
What happens to anyone who criticises them?
There is no freedom of speech and no free press.
Lebanese Shia most certainly do not approve of Hezbollah or what they do in Lebanon.

and have never, ever stated that I support them,

No, but the above assertions were supportive of them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:25 PM

Correction.
Lebanese SUNNIS most certainly do not approve of Hezbollah or what they do in Lebanon.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:44 PM

BBC on Hezbollah,
In 2011, the group and its allies forced the collapse of the unity government led by Saad Hariri, a Saudi-backed Sunni, with Hezbollah warning that it would not stand by as four of its members were accused of involvement in the 2005 assassination of Mr Hariri's father Rafik.
Hezbollah and its allies have continued to be part of subsequent governments, where they wield considerable influence.
As the war in Syria escalated, thousands of Hezbollah militants went to fight for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, proving decisive in helping pro-government forces recover ground lost to rebels, particularly along the Lebanese border.
Hezbollah's involvement in Syria, however, has sharpened sectarian tensions in Lebanon, where the group has been targeted in a series of bombings by Sunni militants.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM

From the professor "All racism is deplorable, but I am not aware of any government racists"

No you don't recognise them because of your own overt racism. You have been given a clear example in your friend Boris Johnson. Your own overt racism by seeking to make excuses for him has amply demonstrated your racsim.

If you do not recognise the term "piccannines" as being racist (which even Bobad accepts) you are an abject racist.

Any hand wringing you do saying "all racism is deplorable" is mere lip service to try and avoid the public condemnation which you should rightly undergo.

And the man claims to be a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:08 PM

Misremembering my arse. You don't have to remember anything. It's here in black and white. You didn't bother checking the accuracy of your quote before typing. You did the same thing with Wheatcroft. When you are as up-front and controversial as you are, people are going to check up on you. You would do well to remember that instead of taking people for fools. Still, you acknowledged an error. That's progress.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 05:52 PM

Cheers, Raggytash. My sentiments exactly. And I defy anyone reading this thread to extrapolate from anything I've said that I support Hezbollah. This bloody cabal of racist minnows who post here, the unholy trinity of Keith, bobad and Teribus, can't bear to hear facts about the people they purport to despise. It just has to be so black and white. They'll tell you that they hate Hamas and Hezbollah for what they are and for what they say. If that were all, so would I. But Lebanon and Gaza get on with living, in spite of the Israeli regime's depredations, and those detestable organisations keep the show on the road for millions of people. Putin keeps his show on the road and Dubya kept his show on the road. But I daren't state these incontrovertible facts in case Keith claims that I "support" these pillocks. The people he supports, the Israeli regime, are just about the biggest pillocks on the planet, but hey ho, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 07:13 PM

"Any hand wringing you do saying "all racism is deplorable" is mere lip service to try and avoid the public condemnation which you should rightly undergo." - says Raggy

Isn't that precisely what Labour's NEC has done? Now why don't those who were the cause of all those recommended "immediate and sustained actions" being made have to withstand - "the public condemnation which they should rightly undergo."

We have yet another baseless accusation thrown out by "Shaw, the honest, open and truthful" - "This bloody cabal of racist minnows who post here, the unholy trinity of Keith, bobad and Teribus, can't bear to hear facts about the people they purport to despise.".

"This bloody cabal"?? What bloodshed Shaw?

"Racist"?? - Give me an example of anything racist that I have posted - How silly of me, I forgot that's never going to happen is it?

Now then who is it that I purport to despise and what "facts" about them can I not bear to hear?

Hamas? Tell me about their popular support and the mandate that was so freely given by the population of Gaza. When did they last hold an election? What did they do to their political opponents? Why did they use cement and building materials delivered into Gaza to build tunnels and underground bunkers for themselves and built nothing for the general population? Why have they indiscriminately fired over 15,000 rockets, mortars and missiles into Israel? If they did not exist then there would be no problem with Israel (Ask the Jordanians and the Egyptians if Israel keeps their side of any agreement they sign - the answer would be, "Yes they do.")

Hamas and the PA have received more in aid than was given to the whole of Europe under the Marshall Plan at the end of the Second World War - what have they done with it? - S.F.A.

Dress them up anyway you like Shaw, Hamas and Hezbollah are "men-of-the-gun" who are state sponsored by the likes of Iran, and formerly Iraq and Syria to cause trouble with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM

You see? Black and white. Teribus, would you like to define the whole history of the 20th century by its conflicts alone? Or does the humdrum, prosaic beat of everyday life, which actually occupies far more time than the conflicts, count for nothing? Well, at least you answered your own question. I thought for a second that you were presenting me with a real challenge, but then you went and spoiled your case with a fully-expected Islamophobic rant about the two organisations who are trying to run benighted territories whilst keeping Israel at bay. Yes they are nasty, yes they say horrid things about Jews, yes democracy is not in their souls, yes they have this bad habit of firing ramshackle rockets into Israel (we don't need to discuss comparative killing rates, do we...?). But they happen to be in charge and we do have a long history of propping up far worse people (your hero Maggie thought the WORLD of Pinochet!) So tell me. What you gonna do about them? Who would you put in their place? No, honestly, I really do want to know what your solution is!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:07 AM

Steve Shaw - 30 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM

1: "Well, at least you answered your own question."

Which one? You certainly wouldn't, you never do.

2: "I thought for a second that you were presenting me with a real challenge, but then you went and spoiled your case with a fully-expected Islamophobic rant about the two organisations who are trying to run benighted territories whilst keeping Israel at bay."

And you chose to ignore it as you normally do.

Which one of you clowns steadfastly proclaims that it is not anti-Semitic to criticise Israel? Yet according to you any criticism of either Hamas or Hezbollah is Islamophobic!! - What a good little "Animal Farm Socialist" you are Shaw - Firm believer in there being "one sauce for the goose and another for the gander" because we should all know that "some animals are more equal than others". All that shows about you is that you are duplicitous and hypocritical.

Hate to have to point the blatantly obvious out to you Shaw but Hamas and Hezbollah are "keeping nothing at bay" - THEY are the problem, they are purposely keeping the conflict running because that is what their Iranian paymasters demand. The second they stop doing Iran's bidding the flow of arms and money stops and both those organisations are toast.

I think that purely going by track record that you can establish very rapidly that "try to run two benighted territories" is well down the list of priorities of either Hamas or Hezbollah. In the time that they have been "in power" intolerance and repression have flourished and despite the enormous sums of money given by the international community neither have succeeded in doing anything to advance the living conditions and quality of life of those they "govern".

Tell me who are the Israelis attacking and killing right at this moment? Nobody. Why? Because nobody is attacking them right at this moment. Egypt, Israel's most implacable and constant foe from 1948 until 1979 when their Peace Agreement was signed. Since March 1979 how many times have Egypt and Israel fought? I think that you will find that their Peace Agreement has lasted, why? Because Israel over the last 37 years has not been threatened or attacked by Egypt.

3: "But they happen to be in charge and we do have a long history of propping up far worse people (your hero Maggie thought the WORLD of Pinochet!)"

Thankfully and to our great credit I do not believe that we, here in the UK as a nation, are actually propping up either Hamas or Hezbollah, even although Jeremy Corbyn describes them as his friends.

I do believe that Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom did have good reason to be grateful to Pinochet's Chile due to the support they provided during the Falklands Conflict - they saved the lives of British Servicemen. Pinochet was replaced how Shaw? By force of arms or by democratic process that he himself initiated? I think that you find it was the latter. Can you see either Hezbollah or Hamas EVER even remotely considering doing that? I certainly can not.


4: Now we have the Shaw questions that must be addressed {Would that he was so good at answering questions put to him}:

"So tell me. What you gonna do about them? Who would you put in their place? No, honestly, I really do want to know what your solution is!"

Well it would appear that your solution would be to side with, "prop up", support to the hilt and ensure expansion of their power and influence of those you know to be - Nasty; Anti-Semitic; Totalitarian; Belligerent - and all at the expense of the only democratic country and haven of political and religious tolerance in the entire region.

What would I do with regard to Hamas and Hezbollah? I would relentlessly expose them for exactly what they are - corrupt, inefficient bandits who have robbed the people they purport to "govern" of their freedom, security and any hope of future prosperity.

"Who would you put in their place?" Well for a start I wouldn't put anybody in their place, as that would be up to population wouldn't it? But let's face it anybody would be a vast improvement on what they have now.

"No, honestly, I really do want to know what your solution is!" - No you don't, you are not in the slightest bit interested. How did I know that? You used the word "honestly" - You haven't got the foggiest notion of what that word means.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:14 AM

As has been pointed out, elsewhere in the world the "labour antisemitism" accusation is a done deal - groundless, proced false - a dead parrot
The attempts of tyour Israeli friends to undermine British politics by attacking the Labour Party, which, under Cotby, will possibly play a part in supporting a boycott of Israeli goods (which was what this was all about) failed miserably
No major antisemitism was uncovered and, to make sure it is never an issue, Labour has issued a number of guidelines for the future - nothing to do with there ever been a problem but a safeguard against the Israelis having adopted a policy of making all criticism of its actions "antisemitic" (of which you ad your thuggish mate have refused to comment - at least the vitriol-spitting Bobad had had the bottle to say he agrees with it)
"All racism is deplorable"
Despite the fact of your having made the most racist claim ever to be made on this forum, aimed at around one million British citizens - a statement that would have been liable to prosecution had it been made publicly!!
"but I am not aware of any government racists."
You deny Johnson made his "PICCANINNY" statements then?
BRITAIN HAS A FOREIGN SECRETARY WHO IS PRONE TO MAKING RACIST STATEMENTS - EVEN ABOUT ALLIED HEADS OF STATE
This is simple hypocrisy from two extremist right-wing fanatics on a mission.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 03:41 AM

Hmm. Well if any criticism at all of Hamas and Hezbollah is Islamophobic, that makes me thoroughly Islamophobic, seeing as 'ow my post is full of it! See, Teribus, I speak as I find. I won't deny their faults. I wish they were better. But look at your loyal, valiant and BLIND defence of the nation that kills a hundred times more people with no regard as to how many children, which steals the best land and which has entrapped over a million in the world's biggest prison. Your egregious defence of that nice General Pinochet puts you firmly in the fascism camp. You won't hear a single bad word. Unbelievable. Any nice things you want to tell us about Franco while you're here? He kept the lid on and handed over peacefully too. Lovely feller!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

"BLIND defence of the nation that kills a hundred times more people with no regard "
And appoints a racist as Foreign Secretary
Not worthy of comment for this pair of tossers who have flogged this proven to be long dead horse till it's little more than a bloody pile of bones.
Jim Carroll