BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:40 PM

Just telling me that you don't agree with two of my points, then failing to explain why, is a bit lame in a discussion forum, Keith, don't you think?   I have told you in very simple terms what antisemitism is, Keith. It is disparaging or attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Not because of their politics or what their regime gets up to. It's so simple. People like you and the pro-Israel lobby expend a great deal of energy dishonestly trying to expand that very simple definition. If I say that Jacob Zuma is a prick and that it's regrettable that so many ANC members support him, that does not make me a racist. If I say that Jacob Zuma was bound to fail because he's black, and managed to take so many black people with him, that's racist. Keith, you want a broader definition of antisemitism so that you can then use it to suppress debate about the evils of the Israeli regime, which you unconditionally support no matter what injustices they perpetrate on Palestinians. By the way, Keith, it wasn't my idea to call Israel a Jewish state. One quarter of the people who live in Israel are not Jews. To me, that makes Israel a state with a predominantly Jewish population, but not a Jewish state. To call it that is inaccurate at best and racist at worst. My view is that Israel receives special and privileged treatment from the West, therefore we should expect high standards of behaviour in return. As much of that aid is military, I think we should expect at the very least the quest for peace and security for its own people and for its neighbours, built on a position of strength, precisely the opposite of what actually happens. We can't expect anything as particular from countries that we don't aid in the same way, though we may hold them to certain international standards when it comes to human rights. In other words, Keith, there should be conditions attached to that massive aid. The fact that it doesn't happen in the case of Western aid to Israel is the very reason why, for decades, peace talks involving Israel have been a sham. Israel knows that it can do what it likes but the aid will keep going in. They never need to give a single inch. Now all that is my opinion. If you think a single word of it is antisemitic, you'd better give a clear explanation as to why you think so. And, for a change, let's hear what YOU think, not some higher authority. Think for yourself for a change, Keith. It would be quite refreshing.

Can I support my assertion that the pro-Israel lobby tries to broaden the definition of antisemitism in furtherance of its interests? Why yes, I can. This is from wiki, Keith.

Zunes [Professor of Politics at the University of San Francisco and specialist in Middle East politics] writes that "assaults on critics of Israeli policies have been more successful in limiting open debate, but this gagging censorship effect stems more from ignorance and liberal guilt than from any all-powerful Israel lobby." He goes on to explain that while "some criticism of Israel really is rooted in anti-Semitism", it is his opinion that some members of the Israel lobby cross the line by labeling intellectually honest critics of Israel as antisemitic. Zunes argues that the mainstream and conservative Jewish organizations have "created a climate of intimidation against many who speak out for peace and human rights or who support the Palestinians' right of self-determination." Zunes has been on the receiving end of this criticism himself "As a result of my opposition to US support for the Israeli government's policies of occupation, colonization and repression, I have been deliberately misquoted, subjected to slander and libel, and falsely accused of being "anti-Semitic" and "supporting terrorism"; my children have been harassed and my university's administration has been bombarded with calls for my dismissal."

In an opinion piece for The Guardian, Jimmy Carter wrote that mainstream American politics does not give equal time to the Palestinian side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and that this is due at least in part to AIPAC. George Soros pointed out that there are risks associated with what was in his opinion a suppression of debate:

"I do not subscribe to the myths propagated by enemies of Israel and I am not blaming Jews for anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism predates the birth of Israel. Neither Israel's policies nor the critics of those policies should be held responsible for anti-Semitism. At the same time, I do believe that attitudes toward Israel are influenced by Israel's policies, and attitudes toward the Jewish community are influenced by the pro-Israel lobby's success in suppressing divergent views."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:27 PM

Ah yes, Jimmy Carter, the long time anti-Semite and Israel basher bought and paid for by the Saudis to parrot their racist, Jew hating agenda. It is no surprise to see Shaw quoting this despicable, senile old bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:44 AM

Steve,
I have told you in very simple terms what antisemitism is, Keith

No. You stated your opinion, and I stated the considered opinion of the 28 states of the European Union which flatly contradicts yours.

Your Wikle piece does not support your assertion that "The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,(of antisemitism"

Have you anything else that does?
It does say,"some criticism of Israel really is rooted in anti-Semitism"

Paul,

Because soft handling of "the only Jewish state in the world" has left the west in an impossible position

Nonsense.
There are many previous and worse example of occupation by other states that are ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:05 AM

"There are many previous and worse example of occupation by other states that are ignored. "

I'm sure you're right Keith. The occupation of South America by the Iberian powers since the 16th century, North America by (notably) the British and French from the seventeenth, and Australia by the British since the eighteenth spring to mind. Though it's possible that you have better examples to share?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:20 AM

Ireland 1170 to 1922?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:47 AM

I was honest enough not to edit the balance out of that passage, Keith. You have simply chosen to edit the relevant bits out in your head. Your modus operandi, of course. One more thing. I don't give a stuff about what you've dug up from some EU document you keep droning on about. We all know that you can't even read a simple sentence in a newspaper article without wilfully misinterpreting it, so that game isn't worth the candle. If I criticise Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS I am antisemitic. If I criticise the actions of a person or a group of people because I think they are perpetrating injustices, I am not. Of course, if I use that opinion to denigrate those people BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, I may be. But I don't. It's really simple, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 08:04 AM

steve,
Your Wikie piece does not support your assertion that "The pro-Israel lobby in America also seeks to widen the definition,(of antisemitism")

My highlighting the "balance" does not change that.

If I criticise Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS I am antisemitic. If I criticise the actions of a person or a group of people because I think they are perpetrating injustices, I am not.

You are if you ignore worse offenders and always and only criticise Israel.
It means you are singling out Israel, and holding it to a different standard to its neighbours and enemies.

You need to explain why it is not antisemitc to single out Israel for attack while ignoring worse offenders.
If not because it is the Jewish state, then why?

Paul,
More recent occupations.
Tibet. Kashmir. Japanese islands occupied by Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 08:19 AM

"If not because it is the Jewish state, then why?"

In this instance possibly because the thread mentioned anti-Semitism in the first post .............. by yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:07 AM

This is Keith's thread, it's his football, and he can move the duffel coat and anorak goalposts any where and whenever he likes... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:31 AM

And what if I don't agree that Israel should be referred to as "the Jewish state," knowing as I do that at least a quarter of its citizens are not Jewish and that a good number of the rest do not adhere to the Jewish religion? Keith, the reason that you and Israel refer to Israel as the Jewish state is so that you and they can protest that we're attacking "the Jewish state," when all along we are attacking the Israeli regime's abuses towards the Palestinians. You want us to look antisemitic when we are no such thing. You are trying, dishonestly, to widen the meaning of antisemitism, which can only be attacking Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. When we attack the actions of a state, or at least of its regime, we are doing so because we think that they are doing bad things. Not because they are Jewish. We can discuss other states' bad behaviour in a different context. We often do: in the "Rising" thread I attacked the US for its foreign policy abuses. But this thread revolves around questions of antisemitism, therefore it tends to be in large part about Israelis, Jews and people who may seem to oppose them. I don't see why I should have to balance my accusations against the Israeli regime and the Israel lobby by cataloguing the abuses of other nations every time just to keep you happy. You are the first to moan and groan about thread drift, remember? As for holding Israel to different standards, we treat them to a different, more privileged standard, especially in providing massive military aid. I'm saying that that should come with conditions attached. I also think we should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia, and training their military, until they stop their human rights abuses. If I give a child a toy, only to find that he then uses it to beat his little sister over the head, I won't let him him keep the toy. Are you happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:52 AM

It's like working with a nail in yer boot....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:53 AM

Nice one Punkfolkrocker !!!! Very succinctly put.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 10:56 AM

International politics made easy: more schoolyard analogies...

Little Israel is a spoilt brat rich kid bully protected by even richer, bigger, older bullies.

The UK Labour party is a nice decent thoughtful considerate kid, maybe a bit too much of a do gooder,
who is pen pals with some poor kids who Israel is not friendly with and tends to pick on.
Israel and those poor kids keep getting in tit for tat scraps.

Israel does not like the UK Labour party being too friendly with those poor kids,
so has started to troll internet social media anonymously bullying the Labour party....

This will only end in tears.

Israel needs to be told off and sent to bed early without it's favourite pudding... 😜

[or some more appropriate telling off in the grown up real world....]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve,
And what if I don't agree that Israel should be referred to as "the Jewish state,"

Your whims are irrelevant to the actual facts Steve.

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:25 AM

From your earlier Wiki piece Steve,

"in his book, The Deadliest Lies, Abraham Foxman referred to the notion that the pro-Israel lobby is trying to censor criticism of Israel as a "canard."[85] Foxman writes that the Jewish community is capable of telling the difference between legitimate criticism of Israel "and the demonization, deligitization, and double standards employed against Israel that is either inherently anti-Semitic or generates an environment of anti-Semitism." Jonathan Rosenblum expressed similar thoughts: "Indeed, if there were an Israel lobby, and labeling all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic were its tactic, the steady drumbeat of criticism of Israel on elite campuses and in the elite press would be the clearest proof of its inefficacy."[86]

Alan Dershowitz wrote that he welcomes "reasoned, contextual and comparative criticism of Israeli policies and actions."[87] If one of the goals of the pro-Israel lobby was to censor criticism of Israel, Dershowitz writes, "it would prove that 'the Lobby' is a lot less powerful than the authors would have us believe."[87] Dershowitz himself, claims to have written several critical pieces on specific Israeli policies.[citation needed] Dershowitz disagrees with those who believe that the media is uncritical of Israel and cites the frequent New York Times editorials and even an editorial in The Jewish Daily Forward against some of Israel's more right of center policies as proof.[citation needed] Dershowitz also denies that any significant, mainstream leader in the American Jewish community equates criticism of Israel with antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:49 AM

Anyone anything to say about the Labour Party and its current problems including antisemitism.

Simple denial is not useful.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 11:52 AM

Could I suggest you cite your sources.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 12:06 PM

Who has denied the probability of a minority of racists in the labour party ?

But probably far fewer than in the other parties....
and wider society a whole...

I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,
who have lobbed truck loads of mud with the desperate intent that some sticks...

Strategically timed for the recent elections.

Genuine racists within the Labour movement must be identified and dealt with.

.. but of course, if all this is really about the Labour party attracting an influx of new muslim supporters
it's certainly easier for the rabid detractors to accuse Labour of antisemitism
rather than publicly exposing themselves to be islamophobes.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 12:45 PM

The soi-disant Jewish state (which is precisely what it is) is no such thing. It is not a whim to state that a country that is at least a quarter non-Jewish should not be calling itself a Jewish state. It's absolutely clear why it would want to do so: anyone attacking its policies is attacking the Jewish state, therefore attacking Jews. A clear attempt to broaden the definition of antisemitism. Keith, you never have a thought of your own. You think you can prove points by telling us all the time what other people think, whether it's some EU committee, selected historians or Israeli politicians. Well I'm telling you what I think, and I think there is no justification on earth for Israel's calling itself the Jewish state, and I've given you my reason, which you can't refute, as it happens to be a fact. Israel already has a name, Israel. That'll do me. Let me ask you what you'd think if you were a Muslim or a Sikh, or even an ex-Catholic atheist, who happened to have been born in Israel. If you were asked where you came from, would you cheerfully reply "from Israel, the Jewish state, of course!"? A true Jewish state would contain hardly anyone except for Jews. No such country exists. And some of those non-Jews, or their ancestors at least, were living in the area long before it became Israel. All of a sudden, without being consulted, the ones who weren't actually expelled were told they now lived in a Jewish state. You really can't see this, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:01 PM

.. like how it winds me up everytime I see a a high ranking tory or UKIP buffoon on TV declaring Britain is a christian nation upholding christian values..

..excuse me... I'm a 25% genetic jew 75% Scrumpyshire agnostic/atheist humanist punk hippy if you don't mind... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:36 PM

"The reason Britain's hard left refuses to accept that anti-Semitism can morph from traditional eugenics into parts of modern-day anti-Zionism is because it utterly rejects the notion of Jewish peoplehood."

U.K. Labour's anti-Semitism Struggle: Recognizing Jews Are a People, Not Just a Religion

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:44 PM

Hmm. Click and you can get the convoluted one-liner, as in the post above, but you have to pay to read any more. Perhaps our poster would care to explain it to us carefully. Sorry, mate, you'll have to be bobad this time, not an anonymous sniping Guest...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:03 PM

Bobad / Keith - sorry but when I'm consumed with worry about my old mum's health care,
how long we wait for appointments, how reliable the diagnosis by an overtired and stressed Dr might be,
if the medication will be the correct one, how the hell we will cope if and when the dementia worsens
and we need to find any remaining affordable day care... etc.. etc.. etc..

.. under such circumstances.. the theoretical academic concerns on the finer points of anti-anything-ism will not be our families greatest priority...

Now, I'd hate to sound like a petty minded insular nationalist xenophobe..

... plenty enough real ones of those to point at in UKIP and the tories..

but our votes for the UK Labour Party are for fairer Health, social welfare and working conditions that are more immediately relevant to our needs...

I'd guess the same counts for most other ordinary Labour supporters...

We can't be oblivious to what is happening on the other side of the world, and how it might impact us at home,
but it can't be pragmatically as important to us as it is to the over vociferous zealots obsessed with making a meal of it for their own self absorbed ends...

Btw bobad - why do you keep wasting your time linking to articles in specialist interest international media
that few if any of us subscribe to and are able to read...??????

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:14 PM

'Trouble in Paradise'
From this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

Netanyahu says army general's Holocaust remarks "unacceptable'
MARK WEISS
in Jerusalem
Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu has launched a scathing attack on the eputy Israel Defence Forces (IDF) chief of staff Maj Gen Yair Golan for "disrespecting the memory of the Holocaust".
Gen Golan sparked controversy last week when, during a speech honouring Holocaust remembrance day, he said he identified trends in contemporary Israel similar to those in pre-war Europe.
"If there is something that frightens me about the memory of the Holocaust, it is seeing the abhorrent processes that took place in Europe, and Germany in particular, some 70, 80 or 90 years ago, and finding manifestations of these processes here among us in 2016, " he said.
Not a comparison
After a public outcry, the general clarified that he hadn't intended to compare Israel to Nazi Germany.
"I had no intention of making that comparison - it is absurd and unfounded, " Gen Golan said. "There was no intention of creating that impression or to criticise [Israel's] political echelon. "
However, Mr Netanyahu said Golan's comments were "unacceptable".
"The comparison implied is outrageous and baseless. These remarks should not have been made at all, and certainly at the time they were said. These remarks wrong Israeli society and disrespect the memory of the Holocaust. " Culture minister Miri Regev, from Mr Netanyahu's ruling Likud party, called on the general to resign, saying he had joined those who delegitimise' Israel.
Retired generals along with politicians came to the general's defence, most notably defence minister Moshe Ya'alon, who issued a statement in support of Golan, saying his words were twisted in an attempt to "politically damage the IDF and its officers".
Israel's opposition leader Yitzhak Herzog praised Gen Golan as a courageous commander. "The crazies who will now start screaming against him should know: this is what morality and responsibility sound like. "
Former IDF chief of staff Benny Gantz said: "Golan's statement was poignant and brave. Neither the left nor the right have a monopoly on ethics. "

"Simple denial is not useful."
It's served you well enough for as long as I can remember
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:47 PM

"Btw bobad - why do you keep wasting your time linking to articles in specialist interest international media
that few if any of us subscribe to and are able to read...??????"

Probably because he didn't realise it wasn't free, and almost certainly because he hasn't read it. One thing that's clear about this bloke is that he debates by soundbite and sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:58 PM

Jim, I am not sure what point you are making with that IT piece.

Re Bobad's link, I was able to read the whole article earlier though not a subscriber. not sure what is going on.
The article is by a former Labour member who was on the NEC of the NUS in 2008.

Steve,
It is not a whim to state that a country that is at least a quarter non-Jewish should not be calling itself a Jewish state.

That is how it was set up and that is what it is, notwithstanding your whim Steve.

anyone attacking its policies is attacking the Jewish state, therefore attacking Jews.

Ridiculous. Of course not.
Israel's policies are attacked every day in its parliament and by its free media.
Any country's policies can be attacked and of course that is not racism.

what you'd think if you were a Muslim or a Sikh, or even an ex-Catholic atheist, who happened to have been born in Israel.

You could make the same point about "Islamic states" and "Arab States."
Why don't you?
Why single out the Jewish state again?

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.

You are entitled to your whims Steve, but they are irrelevant to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:01 PM

PFR
I have more than made clear my informed suspicion that any Labour party 'problem' with antisemitism
has been fabricated by 'agencies' outside of the party,

That really is just denial.
Whenever Livingstone and the MP made those statements it would have been picked up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:04 PM

"Jim, I am not sure what point you are making with that IT piece."
This is, as far as I am concerned, about the Israelis using the Holocaust as an excuse for its behavour - they have accused all Jews who criticise as "self-haters".
They have accused Livingstone of Antisemitism on the same basis, even though there are top figures in the Israeli establishment of saying exactly the same thing - there always have been.
Former heads of Mossad accused the Israeli regime of acting as did the Nazis.
When those at the top say these things the accusation is validadted on both sides.
Not surprised I had to spell it out for you but I'm grateful for the opportunity to make that clear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:11 PM

Jim
This is, as far as I am concerned, about the Israelis using the Holocaust as an excuse for its behavour -

Why Jim?
This is about the problems of the Labour Party!

(It is bollocks BTW but I will not discuss it here.)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:14 PM

You do not have to pay to read the Haaretz article if you arrive via Google.
Google "Labour anti semitic"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:16 PM

"That really is just denial.
Whenever Livingstone and the MP made those statements it would have been picked up.

I would point to the above quote from pro Israeli academic / activist"David Hirsh" posted by bobad,
which serves very adequately to reinforce my 'suspicion' that a network of bloggers and well funded 'think tanks/research groups'
are constantly monitoring and cataloguing every social media post by problematic individuals
they regard to be anti israeli...

Someone, somewhere needed to dig up those old social media statements by 'the MP' Naz Shah and bring them to high profile media attention
so close in the run up to elections..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:46 PM

"This is about the problems of the Labour Party!"
In your opinion maybe - it is about Israel using the accusation of Antisemitism against anybody who criticies their terrorism - inluding the Labour Party as far as I am concerned.
You are once again attempting to avoid the awkward bits by squaeling "thread drift".
We will debate this and every topic in whatever way we see fir - it's called 'freedom of speech' - look it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:10 PM

Labour Party's anti-Semitism Struggle: Recognizing Jews Are a People, Not Just a Religion

I left the U.K. Labour Party when I received my Green Card. I felt it was odd to continue to be part of a British political party when I had officially moved overseas for good. Yet, watching the party miserably fail to deal with anti-Semitism over the past ten days, and Ken Livingstone's unending obsession with Hitler and the Jews, took me back to my days on the National Executive Committee of the National Union of Students, an organization that has been a feeder to the front lines of left-wing national politics in Britain for decades.

In 2008, I was elected as one of the 27 national executive members of the NUS. As Sam Lebens, a friend and mentor who served there two years before me, wrote in the Forward, the NUS was often a tense place for Jewish students, especially when they tried to get the majority to accept that anti-Semitism should be taken seriously.

During my own year on the NEC the first Gaza war, Operation Cast Lead, took place. We debated motions about whether NUS would march with the Palestine Solidarity Campaign or condemn the usage of anti-Semitic imagery at the rallies. At another point during that year, I had to confront the hard left on the National Executive Committee about a leaflet that was being handed out that claimed that the Holocaust killed thousands of trade unionists, disabled people, gays and communists. While these groups were indeed victims, the pamphlet omitted one key group: Jews. Here we had dedicated anti-racists educating about the Holocaust while airbrushing out its Jewish victims.

In-between votes on theses issues, I would engage those who were part of the hard left — those who saw themselves as belonging to the same leftist faction as Ken Livingstone — on how they could possibly justify their anti-racist credentials when they were doing things that were so offensive to the Jewish community.

It all came down to their inability to understand why Jews were anything more than a religious group.

They felt that assigning Jews a peoplehood status would be to agree with the eugenics of the Nazis that Jews were "different" or "other;" that only the far-right fascists could see Jews in this way, rather than as just normal white folk. By reducing the Jewish experience into a religious dogma, the hard-left concurred, they were doing Jews a favor.

Jews did not have a place in the traditional liberation campaigns of the NUS. Being Jewish was not the same as being black, LGBTQ, female or disabled. Jews were hated by fascists; the hard left just wanted them to assimilate. According to the hard left in the NUS, being particularist about your Jewish ethnic background was to buy into a racism that was forced upon you.

The hard left was simply incapable of learning the lessons of why Jews felt that the enlightenment did not go their way (read: the Dreyfus affair) and insisted on "flattening" what it means to be a Jew into a solely religious experience.

The utter refusal of the hard left in Britain to accept that anti-Semitism can morph from the traditional eugenics into parts of modern-day anti-Zionist discourse stems from its rejection of Jews as a people. It is an unfortunate fact that Judaism comes from a time before census surveys began separating the "religion" box from the "ethnicity" box. In their worldview, Jewish peoplehood is a categorical error.

The core problem will not be solved until the hard left in Britain recognizes that the Jewish people are more than just a religious community. But the hard left is finding it hard to see that modern anti-Semitism exists beyond the far right, and in fact extends into its own territory.

Therefore, their obsession with Israel — and their inability to distinguish anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism — is based in their rejection of the concept of the Jewish people. The nation state was never a construct that the hard left liked in the first place. When coupled with a people that the hard left denies exists outside a religious context, Zionism becomes for them the embodiment of everything they oppose. The Jewish state reminds them that a Utopian view where a leftist emancipation will heal all wounds fails the test of history, and that demography and territory is something that oppressed people do aspire to.

The personalities within Britain's Labour Party who are being accused of having an anti-Semitism problem are of the same political bent as the hard left that I came into contact with during my time on the NEC of the NUS. It's therefore clear that Labour's anti-Semitism problem won't go away until the hard-left elements within the party accept that Jews are more than a religious group. It won't matter how many people are suspended from the party if its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, can't bring himself to say "anti-Semitism" without qualifying it alongside other forms of racism.

Without recognizing the particular challenge of modern anti-Semitism, the new inquiry into anti-Semitism that the Labour Party has launched will — I fear — achieve nothing.

Joel Braunold is the Executive Director of the Alliance for Middle East Peace. He served on the National Executive Committee of the National Union of Students in 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:49 PM

.. well.. that seems to emphasise just how divorced from reality student politics still are...

Nothing seems to have changed much since I was a mature student back in the 1980s....

Nor my opinion that young relatively well off middle class students who adopt a fashionable leftist political identity
and later end up as careerist Labour party MPs and admin employees, or 'leftist' academics
have anything but a theoretical book learned concept of what the core values of Labour policies really mean,
and what families like mine experienced in factories and council estates.

.. and no, a gap year slumming with the chavs & oiks doesn't really count... 😜

Of course, students struggling to cope with tuition fees, and juggling studies with long hours of minimum wage part time jobs
deserve full consideration and respect...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:56 PM

Well there you have it. Thank you for publishing that without our having to pay, and proving once again that your obsession is seeking out the rantings of unbalanced, near-lunatics to prove that we're all Jew-haters if we ever raise the slightest criticism of Israel. I also note your total lack of comment about the article.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 06:51 PM

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state..."

Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself. Barely three-quarters of its citizens are Jews. Is this the third or the fourth time I've mentioned that rather inconvenient fact? What do YOU think, Keith? Do YOU think that a quarter of the population of a country should be excluded on racial grounds from its soi-disant definition? Yes or no, Keith? Can you answer just this one question on your own without resorting to what some document, declaration, guru or selected historian has said? Antisemitism is racist, yet, without irony, you are defending the right of a country to define itself solely on racial grounds, excluding millions of its people, turning them in effect (and in practice in many cases) into second-class citizens. That isn't very nice, Keith. I have heard it called racist...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 01:31 AM

The locution "Jewish state" in fact probably derives from the influential late C19 book called The Jewish State, in which Theodor Herzl, a non-observant Jewish reporter who had covered the Dreyfus trial, argued the necessity of such an entity, having been shocked by the widespread antisemitism revealed by the case of which he had previously been unaware. Herzl is thus widely regarded as the actual progenitor of the Zionist* movement.

≈M≈

*in the erstwhile merely political sense, rather than the oddly tendentious recent pejorative application, with its overtones of nationalistic belligerence. I belonged in my early teens, eg, to an organisation called the Federation of Zionist Youth, whose aim was simply to establish that state which ultimately came about when I was 16, and not to kill anyone or commit any other atrocities -- 'Zionism' then constituting a 'house', as the Good Book sez, of 'many mansions' [which we nowadays would call 'rooms'].

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 03:13 AM

Steve,
Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself.

Exactly not!
It was the UN that created israel as the "Jewish State."
A homeland for Jews.
Why do you deny the Jews alone the right to a state?

Yes there were some Arabs living there.
Should the Jews have expelled them all?
Instead they gave them citizenship and full citizenship rights.
Those Arabs who chose to leave in 1948 were denied citizenship by their Arab hosts, denied the right to settle, denied citizenship or employment rights, and forced into camps where their descendants live to this day.
The Arabs in the Jewish State are the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:25 AM

Indeed. Is it not a disgrace to the entire Arab world that an entity like Shatila Refugee Camp should still exist nearly 70 years after such Arabs as chose to leave then-Palestine were herded there by their refuge-hosts: a third or fourth generation of interned refugees of all things! — in glaring contrast to the number of Jewish immigrants to Israel since then who have been entirely integrated and absorbed! What is wrong with the Lebanese & their allies, to allow such an enormity to persist for so long, for purely [counterproductive, it might well be said] propaganda purposes!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:30 AM

Another Labour member speaks,
"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself: it is a denial of agency over our own ideas and methods of political organisation.

So far, the centrist plan to 'tackle antisemitism' in the Labour Party has amounted to a heavier reliance on internal party bureaucracy – more investigations and more powers to a 'Compliance Unit' to root out activists far beyond the pale of any democratic accountability.

But antisemitism is a problem with faulty ideas, not individuals; it corrupts our solidarity with foreign peoples and estrange one of the world's most historically oppressed minorities from the cause of labour. There are better ways to build internationalism – and better ways to 'criticise Israel'.

Labour's left flank has had some astounding victories over the past few months – now we need the intellectual integrity to be worthy of them. If we do not call out our own prejudices, then those who would return us to the footnotes of history will do so on our behalf.

They may very well succeed, and perhaps they would be right to try."

Mark Crawford is a postgraduate student at UCL and a member of the Labour Party
http://leftfootforward.org/2016/05/antisemitism-is-built-on-flawed-thinking-the-labour-left-can-call-it-out/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:09 AM

"Another Labour member speaks,"
The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.
Antisemitism is traditionally the domain of the Right
It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews, it was Industrial right-wing capitalism in Germany which herded six million Jews into the extermination chambers.
Unsubstantiated accusations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:43 AM

It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews,

No, but the IRA cheered his armies for "cleansing" Europe of Jews.
Britain and Empire stood alone in 19140.

The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.

Who is qualified to have an opinion, and why not a postgraduate of UCL?
Tanya Gold?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:03 AM

The term Jewish State was invented by arch-Zionist Theodot Herzl, as Michael said. It was pounced on with glee at the time of the Declaration in 1948 by Israel's founding fathers, who mentioned it five times in the document. The UN did not demur, but the term was not theirs. And you have not answered my very simple question yet, Keith. Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.

As for this gem:

"The Arabs in the Jewish state are the lucky ones."

Why, I suppose the house-boys who lived with their wives and kids in tiny shacks at the bottom of my uncles' gardens in Rhodesia were also "the lucky ones." And how "lucky" to be an Arab in Israel, if you've had your land and water supply stolen, your family olive groves slashed in half by an apartheid wall, when you're waiting for three days to get through a road block, to be stuck for months or years in an Israeli jail without charge. Gosh, I'm so jealous! Were that I should come by such good luck! Citizenship and full rights, eh? Well let's have a look at how far that has got the Arabs who are so lucky to live in Israel. Arab men twice as likely to be jobless. Arab women three times as likely. Arab men on half the pay of Jewish men. Far less funding for Arab schools leading to twice the Jewish dropout rate. Hardly any industrial investment in mainly-Arab areas. Buses that go around Arab areas instead of through them, making getting to work and school difficult. Israel almost at the bottom of OECD equality ratings because of this ghettoisation of Arab areas. Equality laws largely unenforced. All this is in a report funded by the Bank of Israel in 2014 called "The labour market of Israeli Arabs." I can't do links.

My uncles said that the house-boys were basically lazy and feckless, like the blacks in Rhodesia in general, and were lucky to have such kind employers. What's your excuse for why those lucky Arabs in Israel aren't even luckier, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:08 AM

Well I'm a member of the Labour Party, and not only was I a postgraduate student (once I'd got my degree from Imperial College) but I passed the postgrad course too and got the letters. That puts me one up on your source, Keith, but you don't bloody listen to me, do you? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:14 AM

Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.


It was set up by the UN as a Jewish State and it remains the only one in the world, so yes.
Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland.
That the only Jewish State should be expunged from the map.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:51 AM

"Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland"
Nobody has ever claimed that here - it is Israeli expansionism that is the problem, and that is opposed by many Israeli and non-Israeli Jews alike - are you claiming they they believe Israel should be expunged from the map?

Israelis Against Settlements
Britain and Empire stood alone in 1940.
When it had no alternative
During the rise of "Herr Hitler" Britain was happy to let it happen and criminalised those who opposed fascism as "premature Anti Fascists".
Some right wing IRA members did have contact with the Nazis, but on the other hand, the British Monarch and his wife were supporters of the Nazis, as was the proprietor of the leading Bristish right-wing newspaper, the Daily Mail - support for Hitler in Britain lasted throughout the war.
DAily Mail's friendship with Herr Hitler

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:22 AM

I have said in these threads until I'm blue in the face that I oppose people who want to wipe Israel from the map, kill Jews because they are Jews or move Jews out of Israel. That is a bloody stupid post, Keith, and you know it. In fact, it's a troll post containing defamatory remarks. "Presumably," eh? On what grounds do you "presume" it? To complete the picture, you support a situation in which Arabs are turned into second-class citizens in their own country. You have failed to address any of the points I made. Do you or do you not justify the clear discrimination against Arabs in Israel that is staring you in the face? Did you know that the Israeli national anthem contains only strongly Zionist sentiment with reference to Jews only? Would you like to be an Israeli Arab soldier, singing that anthem, or with others singing it around you, Keith? Do you really understand the regime you so blindly and unconditionally support? It doesn't sound much like it from here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:35 AM

"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself"

No one has quite got round to calling me an 'antisemite yet.. but seem to be slowly inching ever closer....


I was 18 in 1977 - the peak punk rock year - I, along with best mates, had studied Govt & Politics / Brit constitution at FE college..

We were already en route to becoming politicized towards socialism,
when at that time "Rock Against Racism" and the "Anti N@zi League"
emerged as popularist crusades that inspired and educated youth all around the nation;
crucially in backwater provincial towns like mine,
where the non white population was near zero
and jewish school mates had been segregated for morning assembly at our grammar school....

I moved to Leeds / Bradford at 19, it was an imense culture shock, but one I revelled in.

Rock against Racism and The 2 Tone multiracial ska movement was in full swing.

My generation has that foundation

It was a most culturally progressive of learning times for all teenagers involved in music and arts.

It is at my core and in my bones...

These pro Israeli academics that are being quoted here are theorising themselves so far up their own arseholes
they are a divisive menace to the UK multi cultural Labour movement... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:39 AM

Steve -- This is, as often averred, tho less so perhaps than whilome, "a Christian country"; in that it has its own Established Church, recognised as such by statute, whose senior clergy are ex officio members of the legislature, and whose membership is by statute enjoined on the country's Head Of State &c &c &c ···   The fact that actual practising churchgoing members of the Church of England are now a small minority does not in itself invalidate that designation.

In the sense that Judaism is its recognised state religion (tho notionally without prejudice to the rights of belief of any of its citizens who choose to follow other faiths, or none, in what is a free society), Israel remains a "Jewish state" by the statutory status within its establishment of the religion named...

It is admittedly an unfortunate fact that the principles of such a free society are not being practised as might be wished by many of the country's erstwhile supporters — who now, like me, find themselves unhappily unable to maintain that support in view of many of the actions of its current administration — does not of itself undo the principle on which the designation is based: any more, I reiterate, than the fact, that so few UK citizens are nowadays active churchgoers, prevents this from being accurately called "a Christian country", both by tradition & by various statutory enactments.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:46 AM

Apologies for the anacoluthon at the beginning of my 2nd para above; but I think my drift is clear enough.